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View Full Version : Loot Systems With PuGs - How To?



Elahrairah
01-09-2010, 02:10 AM
I'm currently running a loot system built off the foundation of PIRATE. It's a weighted roll system that takes into account attendance (by percentage), and loot taken over the previous four weeks of raids. I won't go into the details of balancing the three variables, as that still needs tweaking.

How would I go about continuing to use this loot system if we have PuGs present in our raid? Obviously they can't be added to the system, since it measures attendance rate, and they have none. This can be done if a PuG wants to continue running with us, though they'll still have lower priority on invites than guildies.

One possible idea I had, since the system uses weighted rolls, is to simply use rolls. If a PuG had the highest roll, then we don't apply the system, and they win loot normally, and are those noted to have a lower chance to recieve lower loot, or limited to 1-2 upgrades per raid (Mainly talking 25-Man here). Possibly a modifier to future rolls, like -20 or something. Details can be adjusted until things feel right.
If a guildie wins the roll, then apply the system, and distribute loot accordingly, as though only guildies rolled. Of course, we won't allow guildies to roll on peices that they don't actually need, just to increase the chances of a guildie taking it. In another copy of this thread, someone mentioned the uncertainty that the guild wasn't trying to cheat people.

"the pickup has to compete against some unknown number of people, and can't have any assurance that the people he's competing against would actually compete for the item in a plain roll. The guild might have every cloth user, or even every caster roll against him, because it's in their immediate interest to get that loot into the guild."I disagree with this perspective because it's not hard to moderate who should be rolling on loot, and who should not. This is done with free rolls, and should be done with -any- system. I can deal out scoldings / punishments if my guildies are trying to cheat people. That's not cool, and it lowers the guild's rep.

Another response yeilded the idea that PuGs had a higher chance of getting loot than guildies, even if there were more guildies rolling.

"Consider guildies A and B, who both have great attendance, but B has fewer loot points than A. Throw in pugger C. If an items drops they all want, "C" has at least 1/3 chance of winning. Because B is behind A in points, B has a 0% chance of winning. If I were player B, I'd be pretty annoyed."The first thing to note is that the system is weighted rolls. It's not as cut and dry as "B is behind A, so A gets loot". As well, if the two were rolling in an all-guild run, the same priority would apply. The PuG also has a 2/3 chance of NOT recieving the item. That is the part that I care about. If a guildie has an issue with another guild member having priority, it's up to them to work on getting thier attendance up, otherwise the loot might be lost just as much as if it went to the PuG.

The whole point here is that we maintain fairness to the PuGs, while still distributing loot among the guild according to people's expectations (AKA, what they signed up for and not just free rolls with a guild tag attatched).
I do see an issue with the annoyance of having to compete against PuGs on thier turf, but isn't this the case with a freerolls system?

What do you folks think? Any other paths to go? As a PuG, would you have an issue with this sort of system? How about a guildie, agreeing to the loot system in a no-PuG setting (obviously if you don't like the core system, you're SoL)?

Thanks ahead of time for any feedback.

Acheronia
02-10-2010, 01:23 AM
We use EPGP, even if we have a pug in the group (which hasn't happened in a while). Everyone that needed the item would roll. If a guild member won the roll, he would get the item, but would be awarded the appropriate GP (Gear Points), thereby dropping his priority. It made the guildies think twice about rolling for an item, especially if it makes their GP go up too much, so it pretty much evened out.

Just for those that don't know: EPGP is according to Effort Points and Gear Points. You get loot according to highest priority is which calculated: EP / GP = Priority
The higher your EP (which you get for attendance and boss kills), the higher your priority.
The higher your GP (gear that's received have a point system), the lower your priority.

So while the pug doesn't affect or isn't part of the EPGP system, your guild members are... they just tend to regulate themselves automatically. And the pug still gets to roll with everyone, and the loot goes to who won the roll. No drama.

phaze
02-10-2010, 06:34 AM
How would I go about continuing to use this loot system if we have PuGs present in our raid? Obviously they can't be added to the system, since it measures attendance rate, and they have none.

Less obviously, you could just add them to the system. ;) You're likely to have repeat-attendance puggers anyway, if you raid on a consistent schedule.

But the simplest answer for pug raids is to use /random, with MS having priority. If you want to have more control over loot distribution, bring a full raid from the guild.



If a guildie wins the roll, then apply the system, and distribute loot accordingly, as though only guildies rolled.

Seems a bit unbalanced against your guild members, since they pay a price that the puggers don't. Simpler to just use a basic roll, across the board.

As for using a weighted rolls system: I've never liked them. They're complicated, and the attempt to keep some random elements conflicts with the entire reason for tracking attendance/contribution. To me, that's extra headaches for no real benefit. I much prefer using a point system, and ditching the rolling; take your pick of the many point systems available.