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View Full Version : Why Tanks aren't in the LFG queue



Chamenas
01-03-2010, 10:00 AM
**Skip to the end to see the Discussion Point**
A nice, snarky list of reasons why you don't see enough tanks in the LFG queue.

Reason #1: DPS Pullers :
[ Cue Scenario 1 ]
Tank: Hey, you guys ready for me to pull?
DPSer 2 begins to cast Arcane Bolt

[ Cue Scenario 2 ]
Tank: Guys, I need a second to fix something.
DPSer 3 sends his pet in to pull the next group

If we go back to the very beginning, the role of the tank is to hold aggro and stay alive. If someone else pulls the mob, the tank doesn't have aggro. Rare is the situation in which the tank asks someone to pull, if the tank doesn't ask you to pull then he probably doesn't want you to. If the tank isn't pulling, it's probably, just maybe, for a good reason.

Reason #2: DPS Tanks :
[ Cue Scenario 1 ]
Tank: Okay, so it seems like people are taking aggro. I'm going to mark my target with skull, please attack skull.
Tank pulls and aggros skull target, does some simple AoE to avoid healer aggro on second target. 5 seconds in, DPSer 2 gets aggro on second target. Tank switches target, taunts and saves DPSer 2 (ideally, but sometimes they die).
DPSer 2: Wow, can't hold aggro? Fail tank.

[ Cue Scenario 2 ]
Tank: Alright, your (DPSer 3) gear is a lot better than mine is. It's going to be tough to keep aggro, if you're getting aggro can you switch targets or stop for a few moments so that you don't pull?
DPSer 3: k
Tank pulls and aggros targets. 4 seconds in, DPSer 3 has aggro. Tank taunts back. 8 seconds in, DPSer 3 has aggro, taunt on cooldown. Mob 1 kills DPSer 3.
DPSer 3: Man, you suck. You can't hold aggro at all. You're fail, are you a noob?

Reason #3: No one listens to the tank :
Tank: Alright, I'm going to LoS pull this. Everyone knows what an LoS pull is?
DPSer 2: Of course, noob.
Healer: Just pull please.
Tank aggros one of the mobs, runs behind a wall or some object. Takes a bit of damage before getting there. Healer stands in the open and heals tank, DPSers 2 and 3 start opening up on the mobs before they get to the tank. Chaos ensues. Party wipes.
DPSer 1: You guys suck.
DPSer 2: What was the tank doing? Running away? Fail.
Healer: Can't even keep aggro off of the healer. Fail tank, you suck.
Healer leaves the group.

Reason #4: Everyone else's way is the "Right" way :
[ Cue Scenario 1 ]
Tank begins pulling, the path splits to the left and the right, both lead the same direction. Tank heads to the left.
DPSer 1: What are you doing?
Tank: What? I'm pulling.
DPSer 1: You're going the wrong way.
DPSer 2: lol, fail.
Tank: How is this the wrong way?
DPSer 1: Because you're supposed to go the other way.
Tank: Umm, they both go to the same place.
DPSer 1: Fail tank.

[ Cue Scenario 2 ]
Tank begins pulling, the path splits to the left and the right, both lead the same direction. Tank heads left. Everyone but DPSers 1 and 2 follow tank, DPSers 1 and 2 head right. Get aggro on a group and die.
DPSer 1: wtf?
DPSer 2: Fail.
Tank: Where did you guys go?
DPSer 1: Where we were supposed to, where were you?
Tank: ... I'm where I'm supposed to be.
DPSer 1: No you're not, that's the wrong way fail tank.
DPSer 2: lol, fail.

[ Cue Scenario 3 ]
Tank comes up to a group that can be avoided by hugging the wall. In the spirit of efficiency he hugs the wall and avoids the group, telling the others that they can avoid the group by hugging the wall.
DPSer 1: What? No, you pull this group. God, you're so fail.
DPSer 2: Where are you going?
Scenario 3.5
DPSer 1 runs right into above mentioned group. Dies.
DPSer 1: !@#$, noob!
DPSer 2: Fail
DPSer 1: Why didn't you pull that group?
Tank: Because we could avoid it, I said that. No one said anything.
DPSer 1: r u srs?
Tank: Umm... yes?
DPSer 1: You suck.
DPSer 2: Fail.

[ Cue Scenario 4 ]
Tank comes up to a group that can be avoided by hugging the wall. Tank decides to pull the group.
Tank: I'm going to pull this group guys, every time I try to avoid it someone ends up pulling and dies.
DPSer 3: OMG, really?
Tank: What?
DPSer 3: We don't have to pull that group.
Tank: *sigh* I know.
DPSer 3: So why are you pulling it?
Healer:Yeah. Why?
Tank: I already told you why.
DPSer 1: Your a noob. (Yes, the your is intentional. That's what they would say)
DPSer 2: lol, fail.

I could go on and on with the scenarios that I've encountered. I just recently started leveling two healers, one of them is now level 71 and I've done quite a few instances to get there. I've definitely had some interesting observations from that perspective.

Foremost is that there are lots of fail tanks out there. Tanks that don't know how to pull, keep aggro, LoS. Tanks who stand there for no reason, who don't communicate, who wipe groups. However, this is not all Tanks, and because of the importance of the role of the Tank it's important to always lead in with the benefit of the doubt, not doing so often leads to chaos and wiping.

I've noticed that despite the common "Healer and Tanks always get the blame" that I get blamed for things I can't control more often as a Tank than I do as a healer. Most people, if they die for their own stupid reasons, tend to know it's their fault, and it seems less common that you get the guy who blames you for not healing him when he jumped off of the cliff. However, people take damage without having aggro and blame the tank for not having aggro. People often misunderstand a tank's job and blame them for not doing it.

People more often say "Good healing" than "Good tanking". The only time I get complimented on my tanking is when I chain pull an instance and do it fast. Sometimes, rarely, people are appreciative if it all goes well and say "Good tanking". But when shit hits the fan and you save the day, people are more apt to say "Good healing", often times in that case the healer has done more. But at the end of a run when nothing has gone wrong and the tank has pulled well, kept aggro and run the group efficiently, I never hear "good tanking".

I say this with a lot of seeming bitterness. In truth I laugh and cry about it. I think it's amusing how typical groups are these days, and that you can boil them down to some stereotypical situations, types or labels. But it's sad that it's so hard to find a good group because there's so many of these people out there. As I level my Paladin, I realize I can get groups faster if I choose Tank or Heals, but I often ignore the Tank gear that I've worked hard to get, and the Tank spec that I paid 1000g to get because after Tanking once or twice I get fed up with all of this stuff. With DPS pulling and not listening, with people complaining and whining. I'd rather just heal at that point, it's always been much less of a target thus far.

I understand that the Tank is not the only person in the group, but they're often the defacto decision maker because it would be too much to ask everyone what they want to do on every pull, or what they want to do on every situation that occurs. I try my best to let the group decide when I can, and even then I get people complaining that I'm wasting time and then start pulling. There's always something.

End:
This thread is for you to post your frustrating or amusing situations in which you, as a tank, have run across. Things that people say or blame you for. Expectations that people have that are unreasonable, etc... scenarios pretty much. I only ask that you be civil about it and do not name names. I'll give one of my own to get us started:

I was tanking Heroic Old Kingdom yesterday and the group wanted to do ALL of the bosses (rather than do the two and skip the rest). After the vampire boss we descend to the lower level. Because of doing all of the bosses, I figured I would go left instead of the usual right, clear out the trash there so that we could do Jedoga and Amnitar (butchered spellings I'm sure) and then head back up the stairs and hop down and do the two trash pulls to the last boss.

As I said I was doing that I got all sorts of complaints about how that way was harder and how we only had to do one pull (I don't know what crack they were smoking). It turns out that the main person complaining had never done Amnitar before and didn't even know about that path, hence their complaint. I've done Heroic Old Kingdom far too many times. As I hadn't failed at tanking to that point and as I had a good set of gear, I would hope that people could trust that I knew what I was doing, but they couldn't. It's something I run into frequently, people not getting their own way and complaining about it. We can only do things one way, there may be 5 different ways we can do it, but we have to choose one. As the Tank, since I'm pulling, I generally get to choose that way. Please deal with it.

Redlite
01-03-2010, 10:13 AM
Thus far, I've had pretty gotten decently geared and intelligent groups, not really encountered that many problems (only one in fact, which I'll elaborate on shortly). In all honesty, before LFD came around, I'd never be caught dead doing a PuG or anything that doesn't involve guild mates or their direct friends.

I've only had one issue in a PuG where I was vote kicked by the three DPS for pulling too fast (I had around 45k buffed HP and the healer had around 28k mana, never dropping below 85%). The healer did not complain once, and furthermore the DPS did not communicate their problem with my pulling too fast (even though I held aggro almost perfectly) and just decided to kick me out half way through the Heroic without saying a word until the moment I was about to be kicked.

Their words? "Lol ur a jerk dude, slow down and stop beign an elitizt" or some such stupidity.

I was so blown away by this I decided to not tank another PuG for nearly three days.

Chamenas
01-03-2010, 10:17 AM
If I took it to an objective point, more than 50% of my groups are probably fine. I've simply had enough groups that aren't fine to really stick out in my mind, especially at lower levels.

Tankasaurus1337
01-03-2010, 10:25 AM
This is why I'm so happy that I was geared before the LFG hit. I purposely just shut out the group, chain pull, and top the DPS (most of the time.) And then they all shut up and don't say anything while I carry them.

I hop on my 60 DK to try and Tank the LFG for levels..I'm doomed to flaming until I /exit.

Siona
01-03-2010, 10:28 AM
[ Cue Scenario 1 ]
Tank begins pulling, the path splits to the left and the right, both lead the same direction. Tank heads to the left.
DPSer 1: What are you doing?
Tank: What? I'm pulling.
DPSer 1: You're going the wrong way.
DPSer 2: lol, fail.
Tank: How is this the wrong way?
DPSer 1: Because you're supposed to go the other way.
Tank: Umm, they both go to the same place.
DPSer 1: Fail tank.




Heh I've had this happen a number of times in the first room of HoL. Everyone seems to go right, when going to the left doesn't skip the boss, has less trash pulls, and doesn't have to deal with the boss pathing through the area you're fighting trash as much. The only reason to go right is that the ledge you can jump down from after Loken to run out takes you down to the right path, but no one runs out of instances anymore so it's a moot point.

Chamenas
01-03-2010, 10:29 AM
Tank just did that for the first time the other day when I was on my DPS (a Warlock). I like it and will be doing it on my tank from now on, I'm quite certain I will run into that scenario more than once.

Turelliax
01-03-2010, 10:42 AM
Today before we did our first pull I explained to the group I needed to "AFk for a moment before we pull need to grab something for my hubby" Pretty much for the rest of the run the dude was trying to figure out how exactly a chik, whose husband didn't play wow.. and didn't fail at tanking... tanked in his group.

I was just entertained cause I think I totally had blown his mind.


Overall I would say with Random I have had very few issues. I have had a healing shaman who kept pulling every group for me and needed when the Bag dropped off that one boss in ICC.

But being a good tank you can generally control the group pretty well. Problem is most people do not really care about the rest of the group and that can lead to horrible group dynamics.

Chamenas
01-03-2010, 10:46 AM
On an off topic note, Ture's comment about Shaman reminded me of a time a Resto Shammy told my Warlock to stop life tapping. When I looked at my mana gained, I almost had more mana gained from replenishment than life tapping, I hardly life tap at all. :)

Daereg
01-03-2010, 11:03 AM
Role paladin, DI your healer, let your dps die .

CatabriOnEarthen
01-03-2010, 11:16 AM
Overall I would say with Random I have had very few issues. I have had a healing shaman who kept pulling every group for me and needed when the Bag dropped off that one boss in ICC.

I think I had that same shaman. Annoyed the crap out of me.

CatabriOnEarthen
01-03-2010, 11:21 AM
We had 2 awesom-tastic (sarcasm) groups yesterday. One was VH. Easy, yeah. I know. But the warrior was charging and WW damn near before we got to the mobs. I happened to be in vent at the time, with the healer (a guildie) who said....I'm not healing him till he drops aggro, and don't you taunt, either.

Same healer-friend, but on his shaman, told me that the dps in AN was pulling the group ahead, and not to taunt again, since I'd saved his ass like 4 times. He died, was *WTF, why didn't the tank taunt*

My friend said. *WTF, why did the dps pull?* We go thru fairly quickly, and when my friend says *moar mobs* I go grab more. If others are too lazy to read guild tags, or wanna play tank, we'll let them.

OH, the epic fail. DK DPS pulls out AoD on every boss in Nexus. Over vent, I said...if he pulls out AoD....stay out of the dragon's way. I'm not doing anything. He did, he died, then I grabbed the dragon. THAT dps realized the error of his ways, and apologized.

the27thvoice
01-03-2010, 11:22 AM
Have only run into such groups a handful of times since hitting 80. Most notable was a Forge of Souls run with a rogue constantly attackign the lone targets. I understand his logic, the longer mobs live the higher his DPS gets, so he wants mobs noone else is killing...but he kept constantly going for caster mobs that I had attacked once and was leaving alone. Then he kept complaining about aggro. Every pull.

Running into such people, I tend to delay my taunts a good 10-15 secs. Some learn after 2-3 deaths, the rest leave group after 5-6 deaths.

the27thvoice
01-03-2010, 11:26 AM
I have had a healing shaman who kept pulling every group for me and needed when the Bag dropped off that one boss in ICC.

Must have run into the same guy. He decided I was going too slow and wanted to help me pull mobs. Only problem is that if I pull I can forget mobs at 50% health and look for next group. If I have to fight back aggro on all mobs, I have to tank them till dead and everything goes slower.

Proletaria
01-03-2010, 11:34 AM
Kudoz on the creativity, but the reason there are fewer tanks to dps and healers in lfg is that there are fewer tanks out there, period.

Until the LFG tool, people had little need to find and replace tanks every 10-15 mins (granted they had a much smaller population size to drawn on, but i'll assume for a moment the overall and tank populations grew equvalently, folly as it may be).

The age-old issue will always be- progressed content requires (for the most part) 2 tanks in 25 players. Sometimes you need a third, but on the whole you get away with a feral cat who swaps bear, or a dk in fp. So there is problem #1: the more gear a tank gets, the higher level of content he seeks, the smaller the demand for his/her services are. Essentially (and i've seen this happen to friends), players out-grow their tanking alt. They get frustrated that after collecting all that badge gear and pugging content that no guilds out there will take them on.

Another problem is the level of involvement. It's a running joke (and sadly, a realistic one) that tanks frequently out-damage their dps in random teams. To put it frankly, it's because they have to do the work. Aside from purposefully pulling aggro, what the dps does has little effect on the outcome of the heroic. Even the healer becomes a semi-marginalized factor when you have block-sets, passive healing, and any other manner of things that prevent the tank from taking hardly a scratch. I've geared 2 toons out in badge gear since 3.3 went live: A prot warrior alt, and a hunter alt. Even though I had to wait significantly longer for groups on my hunter, the grind for badges was far less. I always had the option of just casting volley for trash, auto-following for a moment while I handled a phone call, etc. As my warrior, it was intensely fun, but it was 10x more stressful. In a lot of cases, carrying the team burns tanks out of LFD.

So the population of tanks relative to everyone else is (probably) less than 1 in 5 (which is what would be ideal for LFD). Tanks at all gear levels are required to expend more effort for the same results in a random team. And finally, because guildies and wealthy pugs on my server (and other's im sure) are starting to pay tanks to chain heroics with them.

TLDR: Sell yourself to dps with more money than brains, make the pain worth your while.

Chamenas
01-03-2010, 12:46 PM
I agree Prolet, that your points are indeed valid and a reason behind the issue. I don't want this thread to turn into an argument, but I will say, as a tank, that the reasons I put forth, while humorous, are indeed reasons tanks are not in queues. My Paladin is the best example, because I'll queue for give minutes as a healer and get nothing. I'll queue as a tank and get a group. The group then tells me they've been waiting 5-10 minutes for a tank. That means that I was really one of the only tanks in the queue in the entire battlegroup at that time. And I often choose to NOT queue as a tank for the reasons above. It's just more trouble than it's worth sometimes.

Yeah, I want fast queues. But I don't want to be stressed in a game that I play. People need to treat tanks better or they'll never see this situation get better. It won't fix everything for the reasons you made, but it will encourage more tanks to queue.

Eisen
01-03-2010, 12:57 PM
While all of this is true, you know the number one reason I've seen?

DPS know they have a 10-15 minute wait for a group. They also know tanks have about a 1 second wait. So it's not uncommon to hear a DPS looking for a tank partner for heroics. If they have a partner, they're in and out so much faster.

Chamenas
01-03-2010, 01:16 PM
Right, though that's a direct effect of the lack of tanks.

Edit: more story sharing!

Eisen
01-03-2010, 01:34 PM
Right, though that's a direct effect of the lack of tanks.

Edit: more story sharing!

But I wonder if it's not a case of the chicken and the egg. Almost all the tanks I know run heroics with a partner or a guild team.

Reev
01-03-2010, 01:53 PM
I've been lucky enough not to ever be called a fail tank before, and I honestly don't think that's why there aren't enough tanks in LFG.

First of all, of all the roles available to a guild, guilds need the smallest number of tanks. Usually 3-4 tanks total.

Secondly, because there are so few tanks, and because we are needed for everything, we tend to get geared up quickly and we're swimming in emblems.

Because there are so many more dps needed in raids than tanks, fewer than 1 in 5 players is a tank.

Because tanks tend to gear up so quickly, we don't need any more emblems or gear from heroics, outside of the one heroic random. Once we've been doing ICC for a while, we won't need that either. Because there is nothing I need out of the heroics, and because they get to be repetitive (after all, I'm tanking all the time), I tend to avoid tanking heroics after my random daily is done. Instead, I queue as my lesser geared dps or healing characters, further increasing the discrepancy between dps/healers and tanks.

Heroics are easy. DPS doing stupid stuff doesn't make me want to ragequit. It doesn't make me want to avoid heroics. Hell, I usually get really good players in my heroics, but even if I don't, I so vastly outgear the place that it really doesn't much matter, and I know we'll make it through safely. For me, it's just a question of do I want to do a heroic with 0 return on my time invested, or do I want to work on one of my other characters? I think that's the bigger issue.

Chamenas
01-03-2010, 02:23 PM
You guys fail at story sharing!

zaubade
01-03-2010, 02:41 PM
You guys fail at story sharing!

well fine then..
and you already covered all the ones I have.... and then some

Girlie
01-03-2010, 02:43 PM
Overall I would say with Random I have had very few issues. I have had a healing shaman who kept pulling every group for me and needed when the Bag dropped off that one boss in ICC.

Were we in the same group? Cause I know this guy (and it ain't klor's shammy). Running CoT and having him pulling the gauntlet was fun for the first 10 seconds. Alas, he did not survive.

I don't go into the LFG queue anymore without 2-3 friends. Im a tank, all I have to say in guild is Im doing randoms. Instant queue and usually a guild healer. What more could I want? This is why there are not alot of tanks in the random system. It's not hard for us to find an group to queue up with an avoid the randoms that their own guild won't group with.

NOW..Ive had some AMAZING dps joing and had some really great groups when it was just my brother (healing) and me (tanking) join.

Im allergic to children with ADD who run ahead pulling and the Hunter with scattershot.
While, I can recover from their retardation, I would just rather chain pull
myself, get it done and not have to actually WORK hard when Im in Nexus.

OK..my sharing story, I got kicked from VH right at the last boss. I was running with 4 people from the same guild in the random. They said: "cya l8ter" before I got kicked. I cried, I admit. Cause I was in VH again for the 40th gazillionth time.

kingcomrade
01-03-2010, 02:51 PM
The real reason there's so few tanks is because it is hardest to gear up a tank out of all the various roles. Basically either you can have a guild (if you're lucky enough to be in a good one) run you through normal modes or you go as DPS and ninja the tank items. I tried to gear my first 80, a DK, as a tank, and eventually I rolled a priest just because I got frustrated with not being able to get into groups (in 3.3 my LFG wait time is 30 seconds to 2 minutes compared to 15-30 minutes on the DK). Trying to tank heroics without tanking gear requires a ridiculously geared healer (I am one, and it's kind of silly how fast tanks go down if I'm not spamming on them, I kind of think the current design of the tanking/healing game is a bad one). I honestly think the gear requirements for tanks should go down a bit, at least for heroics, just so that new tanks can actually tank the instances they want loot from.

As for tanks being upset with the DPS doing stupid things, that happens, but you know what I run into more than twice as much? Well-geared overconfident tanks who, for some reason, are in a big hurry pulling half the instance then blaming the healer (me) when we wipe. "Sorry honey you're just not good enough to heal this" -> votekick. Tanks who overpull (especially in Old Kingdom where some of the mobs do retarded amounts of damage) or tanks who are too lazy to grab aggro on all the mobs rather than just the ones they don't have to move their toon around to get (Halls of Reflection) make the game aggravating sometimes. The only real thing DPS does on a regular basis that makes me sigh is not targetting the right monsters first, which honestly isn't that big of a deal except in ToC.

Bovinity
01-03-2010, 02:55 PM
I'm at the point now where I do throw my weight as a tank around a little when DPSers behave like they did in the original post. I don't care what some random_rogue thinks, or how fail he thinks my ways are. He's just a faceless, nameless, replaceable, dime-a-dozen DPSer. He can take his butt right back to his 15 minute queue if he doesn't like it. =)

Chamenas
01-03-2010, 03:00 PM
I honestly don't see that as much, kingcomrade, in heroics. Then again, I'm either tanking or playing my 5-6k dps warlock (things go down fast, really fast). But I agree, it happens a LOT in lower level instances too, but I chalked that up to tanks not knowing how to tank. The good thing about lower levels is we can kick the tank and some plate DPS can generally pick it up with my heals.

We'll see what happens when my healer gets to 80, but I did mention it in my post. There are bad tanks out there, but we're not all bad. Automatically assuming the tank is bad and treating them like junk is a good way to get them to not queue, or to group up with guildies and queue.

If they let my tank's emblems of triumph be BoA, I'd tank more. Solution instantly!

Another story. I was in Occulus tanking and the hunter starts to pull some groups. I ask him kindly to not pull, that, if I'm not pulling it's for a reason. He continues to do it but it doesn't cause any major issue. Anyways, the healer wanted to run a Ruby Drake for the Experienced Drake Rider achievement. I hadn't run an Emerald before, but agreed to do it. We landed on one of the platforms with a pull and I asked a question about Emerald Drakes. The Hunter could clearly see why I had not yet pulled and yet he pulled anyways.

I got angry and rounded on him, flat out asking him why he was not listening to me and continuing to pull. His response was that I was a crappy tank and that I should be thankful that he was speeding things up for me. Happy ending though: Vote kicked him and we got a new DPS. Finished with enough time left for Make it Count.

Azuae
01-03-2010, 03:06 PM
I have run into quite a few poor tanks lately.

I'll queue up my warrior as dps (rather than tank like normal) for FoS because I want the dps trinket. My viewpoint is, if I want a piece of gear from an instance, I need to play that role in the instance. My warrior is very well geared for tanking, and fairly well geared for dpsing, but I've ended up offering to swap from dpsing to tanking many times in the past 2 weeks because the tank simply was horrid. Yes, there were some gear level differences between my 245ilvl warrior and their 219/232 ilvl gear, but that isn't a good excuse for being so poor at threat production as these tanks were. I've run into some DK's lately that I would let them drop a DnD and let that DnD run its full course before I even moved in and attacked. 1 whirlwind later and I had aggro on 3 mobs. Ok, so don't whirlwind as the 2nd move in combat. I wait for DnD to dissapear on the next pack, and tab through the targets to see threat levels - pick the mob with the highest and BT & HS - boom I'm up to the tanks threat level. WTF??? I've run with guild tank alts that were similarly geared as these DK's and I can charge in and open with a WW/BT combo on pretty much any mob and the tank will hold them without difficulty. (Heck, i've run with guild alts that were in blue ilvl 200 gear and they held aggro just fine with me going nuts - unless I actually got to the mobs first and opened with a WW before they actually got there. Only do that in all guild runs when we are just screwing around though of course)

On my pally I've queue'd up as healer lately rather than tank because I'm trying to round out my healing gear. Same issues - tanks with decent gear (232) failing at holding any aggro even after having plenty of time (30 seconds plus sometimes) to build aggro on groups.


I can't blame lack of gear for these poor performances. There have been some undergeared yet great tanks that i've run with as well (mostly guild alts). I literally had a guild warrior alt hit 80 and then tank heroic HoL 15 mins later. I went balls to the wall with dps on my warrior and rarely pulled aggro. I pulled 5k+ dps for that run overall. This person was still learning the mechanics of warrior tanking.


As for why I'm not fond of queueing up as a tank anymore - I've carried so many groups through these instances lately its worn me out. I've seen dps that couldn't break 1k dps in HVH. I've seen healers that could barely keep me alive in my max EH gear, my block gear set, or my unhittable set. Most of the scenarios above don't describe what I've found.

Scenario: Prot Warrior with ilvl 245+ gear, dps with quest greens/blues/epics up to ilvl 232. The prot warrior does as much dmg for the run as the 3 "dps" classes combined

Prot Warrior: Are you guys awake?
DPS1: Sup
DPS2: Here!
DPS3: Why aren't we moving faster?? I thought with you we'd clear this place in 15 mins.
Prot Warr: Well, good, I'm glad you are here. I do wonder though, why I'm doing more dmg than the 3 of you combined...
DPS1: Hey man, I'm doing my best!
DPS2: Don't look at me, I just hit 80.
DPS3: (does not reply - he is on autofollow again)

At the end of the run
Prot Warrior: Well, I'm glad we made it through that instance. I'm gonna suggest to you guys though that you run some regular instances before you try heroics again - Prot Warriors should not be doing double your dps and doing more combined dmg than all 3 of you combined. Oh and the healer should not have been able to do more dmg than you as well. Thank goodness he was able to do some dmg or that boss would still be alive.
DPS1: ! DON"T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY MY CLASS!
DPS2: WTF You are a TANK not a FURY WARRIOR! I KNOW HOW TO DO MY JOB! YOU DO YOURS BETTER NEXT TIME!
DPS3: (no reply because he's afk again after needing on every drop in the instance)
Healer: Man, you dps SUCK. Learn to play your classes.

And as Reev said - My tanks (prot warrior/prot pally) are both very well geared as tanks. I'll run a few heroics a day on my pally just for badges for healing gear, but I'm tired of tanking these instances. Its work to tank. Dpsing the instances, or healing them is very different and fun. I've already maxed out a mage on badge gear, and am working on a shadow priest now. I've tanked for years now, I need breaks occasionally - and tanking for undergeared random pug members just doesn't do it for me most of the time.


Also - for all the moaning i've seen about tanks charging off chain pulling when the healer/dps isn't ready/etc trying to rush the instance - In all the instances I've tanked/dpsed/healed (lots now), I've never had a complaint about the tank moving too fast. I did have one healer leave the part after the 2nd pull in an instance once - with no word as to why. I was with a group of 3 guild dpsers and I was tanking. I asked if everyone was ready - he said yeah, and proceeded to pull the first pack, then after that was dead, the 2nd pack (he had 98% mana after the 1st pack). I have no clue why he left, but we found another healer right away and were off again.

Norik
01-03-2010, 03:08 PM
I found that by whispering the healer at the start of the run something along the lines of "You keep me alive and tell me when you want me to stop, and Ill keep you alive" works wonders.
9/10 times your healer is going to be one of the smarter ones in the group, so earn the trust of your healer.
And yes I do play a DPS class on the side,so I do see both sides of the coin.

jnlentz
01-03-2010, 03:17 PM
I think I have the most horrific story in this thread. Awhile back I que'd into a random and got AK. We started going and on the 3rd pull, while being way ahead on threat on all 4 mobs, I got killed. I play a warrior, at the time had about 44k buffed, full tier 9, etc. If my dieing on trash pulls in AK wasn't bad enough, one of the dps proceeded to blame the entire thing on me, because I was using cleave. I tried to explain to him that when tanking multiple mobs on a warrior you tab through the mobs using SS/revenge/devastate, and cleave in between, provided rage is high enough. He kept insisting that the tank should never use cleave, that I was the worst tank he'd ever seen, bla bla bla. I left group.

Vindicatar
01-03-2010, 04:15 PM
Ive got a few stories for you Lulia. Now I consider myself a decent tank, with crazy gear(245/258/264 in every slot)

#1 I was doing H UP with my GF's hunter alt. The rogue in group insisted on using tricks on me and pulling every damn group onto me. Its frustrating as hell when rogues do this. They run ahead, tricks mobs onto you while the other dps are AoEing, and some mobs can get loose, then you get blamed because YOU cant hold aggro. anyways.. I ask him to not do it, if he wants to pull, reroll a tank. His reply is "LOL noob u have a 5.7k GS deal with it" He does it a few more times and I ask him to stop again and why i dont want him to do it. He did stop surprisingly. So we reach the last boss in H UP and before Im about to pull my gf is like "WTF?" i look at her screen and there is a votekick that has been initiated for me ~_~ she obviously hit no, and LOLd at them for trying to kick me with her in group.

#2 I was running with a guildie gearing up his druid alt and we got H VH. We had a pretty decently geared hunter in group. This hunter probably helped kill like 3 waves in there, and they were the ones that spawn on the main floor area. He refused to move to kill anything, and just stood there untill there were either close by mobs, or the boss. Needless to say we noticed this, but couldnt kick him until the 15min timer was up that allows you to votekick someone. I think we could finally kick him on wave 16. Sigh @ pretty much 4-manning H VH.

#3 Running with the same druid alt, we were doing H ToC5 and the jousting part of that instance was abysmal. People either kept dying/ didnt know what to do/ werent focusing targets. All while this was going on, we had a shaman hunter abusing everyone about how fail they were, and that we should all know what we were doing for our GS's ~_~ pretty sure he was typing more that actually trying to help with the encounter. So I go to pull the 3 mobs, and he types 'WAIT!" he has like 90% mana. ? he says " NO ONE PULLS UNLESS I HAVE FULL MANA! IF U PULL AND IM NOT FULL I WONT HEAL!" he then demands a mage table, and continues his random abuse at other players for various reasons; gems/chants/buffs; So we down the first boss, and his heals were questionable. Pretty sure a 58k buffed ICC25 raid tank isnt THAT hard to keep up. So he rants about how 'sloppy' the kill was, the other members in group were telling him off at this point. We get to The Black Knight, and just as someone talked to Jaeron(?) the 15min timer was up, and he got an instant votekick. The new healer came in half way through P1 and saved the day :D with no mana and in shadow spec

Now im not sure why people want to act like this in LFD, but tbh, if you wanna be a douche, votekick is just a click away. I really dont care if these people are in a que for 15-20mins, maybe they should appreciate their tanks a little bit more. And I can completely understand why tanks are rarer than ever. Who wants to cop this every run when they are paying with THEIR money for a game that is meant to be FUN.

Vin

boogi
01-03-2010, 04:43 PM
When I tank randoms I usually enter with my EH set or tbh it isn't even my EH set, it's more like my "show of health to noobs" set. After entering with around 44k unbuffed I usually get some initial respect and when the buffing is done I switch in some dps pieces and downgrade others for more dps and treath.

The reason I don't sign up for more than 1 random per day is the work it involves as a warrior tank and how monotonous this job is in the long run. I've made the mistake of signing up as tank over my morning coffee, thinking that I could slack and pull some just dinged 80's through. Usually Murphys law steps in at this point and the dps decides to challenge the "imba 44k tonk" and I can't be arsed switching between mobs because I'm not awake yet.

My point is that you can't sign up as tank expecting to get any slack from the dps no matter how nicely you ask. DPS and healers can go AFK for 1 or more thrash packs without anyone complaining but if the tank doesn't pull fast enough or god forbid looses agro he's a slacker and a noob that needs to l2p (and yes I've gone afk on my disc priest for thrash pulls, just shielding and hotting people up).

So I'm only doing 1 random heroic as tank per day, and this is my limit since I don't need any Triumph emblems. I will consider tanking more random dungeons when dps:ers can pry their eyes from dps meters and look at treath, because just maybe the tank is taking a sip of his morning coffee.

Proletaria
01-03-2010, 04:47 PM
I don't have too many anecdotal stories about why i like or dislike the LFD system. For the most part my dk main, prot warrior and pally alts, as well as my healer (shaman) have little issue with truly awful groups. They crop up from time to time, but i tend to smell the stench of fail early enough that I don't waste much time with them.

On a positive note for LFD: Leveling a tank alt has never been easier, more fun, or full of experience for the novice tank. I've been leveling a rogue alt with an RL friend (who is new to tanking) prot pally. While the ease of his class has a lot to do with it(he's a 2-button-macrodin without shame), tanking low level dungeons repeatedly has built up quite a few skills he will need to have when he (if he) eventually gets to raid tanking.

Eisen
01-03-2010, 04:59 PM
I don't often run into the "I just hit 80" crowd, but I love em. Frankly, I'd rather have 3 dps who all do lower dps than me because they just hit and don't ahve good gear yet, than 3 dps with gearscores higher than mine who do lower dps than me and have no idea what the heck they're doing.

Swam
01-03-2010, 05:05 PM
After strings of fail pugs me and my friend decided to only pug together. He has a pally tank and shaman healer, I have a dk tank and a priest healer, works well. Then again we make our groups hate us or love us.
We chain pull as fast as we can. If im healing and im not healing that much I start to dps, often I will start dpsing a group my buddie isnt tanking, he does the same to me. One reason we can do this Is we are both very good and almost never wipe. We either end up with dps who whine that we are going to fast and they cant get mana or a group that will be laughing their asses off and joining in our game.

Shieldless
01-03-2010, 05:29 PM
Yesterday I was in a group for nexus. Now I'm not sure why, but I always end up with terrible dps when I go to that place. After the first couple pulls the warrior in my group decides to pull the first boss, the group after the first boss, and the group after that, as I am pulling the group before the boss, and then ran over to the rest of us, died, and wiped us. While we were all dead, he simply said "fail" and left the group, as well as our healer.

After this I felt like everyone on earth must now be a complete moron, or an asshole, I'm not sure which. Still, I queued again and ended up in Gundrak. Here I had a very well geared healer, (ToGC 25 and ICC gear) a mage, a hunter, and a rogue who had just dinged 80. After the first two pulls I immediately noticed the hunter would be problematic, pulling aggro, then continuing to attack the target he pulled, and then not even using fiegn death or disengage, or anything of that sort.

After the first boss, I decided that he wasn't worth my taunts, so I let him die. Needless to say, he left the group as soon as that happened. But then, my faith in other players was renewed when the healer immediately complained about him, saying that any dps that pulls aggro and doesn't do anything about it should die, and that he would never waste his heals on someone who has aggro that shouldn't. The mage and the rogue then immediately chimed in complaining about how dps were getting a bad image with all the bad dps out there who pull aggro and blame everyone else. So now I know there is at least some good left in the world.

the27thvoice
01-03-2010, 05:47 PM
Good point Reev, there really is a lack of variation and incentive. At some point there just is nothing else to grind for. I also get generally good groups, but have nothing to run for.

I used to make this all worse on my server though, kudos to Blizzard for stopping me there. Most of the time in the old LFG tool, DPS would make the groups and then look for tank/healer. There was always a bunch of DPS in the LFG thingy. As a tank, all I had to do was grab a healer, and the group would be formed within 30 seconds (with my pick of DPSers, some are to be avoided).
If I went into LFG and saw other tanks there and no healers, I'd invite them over the pure DPSers in there. Tanks love to go offspecc, and it kept other groups from forming who could otherwise steal my healers.

Chamenas
01-03-2010, 07:58 PM
My offspec is another tank spec. I don't dps on my tank :P

Reikk
01-03-2010, 09:39 PM
My main is an 80 warrior. I was a tank from the start and was all the way until I was level 80. I didn't even have dual spec until then. I hit 80 and then tanking took its toll on me. People don't realize that tanking is more stressful than any other position and that one wrong move can wipe a group possibly. I know tanks aren't perfect but they are held to such a high standard. In the LFD I normally just do dps now and my dps gear has overtaken my tank gear.

But anyways, one of my most frustrating moments as a tank was in regular Halls of Lightning against the first boss (didn't want to try and spell his name). We cleared some of the trash and were waiting for the boss when he wasn't charged. I am just sitting there waiting and of course the hunter decides to pull the next trash group before the General is far enough away=wipe. So I shake it off and we go at it again. Once again, the hunter pulls the boss when he is charged and then sends his pet to attack the mob at the same time=wipe again. He gets all mad that I didn't keep aggro on the mob he pulled and leaves. So I tell them one more try. We kill another mob and then our group runs back to get out of the way of the boss while he is charged, except the druid who attacks the boss and runs back to us and we wipe.....again.

It was very frustrating that they wouldn't even let me pull the boss once. I find this kind of thing very popular in the lower lvls. Hotshot mages and hunters pull a group and expect the tank to pull aggro off them and me (the heals with my alt) to keep them alive.

Eisen
01-03-2010, 09:51 PM
So I just got a story.

Did my daily random for my frosts...it was UK. We have a several minute wait for the rogue while he gets a glyph in right off the bat. whatever, I'm patient. Just as I decide to start pullling trash and let him catch up, he shows up.

First pull. Almost immediately after moving into the mobs, they suddenly are 10 feet back from me. First I think it's the pathing bugs messing with me, then I realize the druid used Typhoon. OK, I'll let it go this once.

Second pull. Almost immediately upon getting to the mob pack, the druid typhoons again. one of them is out of TC range now, it aggros on the druid. I get it back cause I'm just that awesome. I ask in party chat very nicely "Please stop using typhoon." Two pulls later it happens again. Now I'm mad. I tell the druid plain as day he either stops using typhoon or the group is looking for a new tank. His reply "Stop doing what? I'm not doing anything {expletive}". I explain, again, that he's using typhoon and it's making me have to chase mobs. The healer replies "Oh it's not his fault, he has his pvp set on. So I check his geat. He has 1 pvp item. Shoulders. And I go through all his trinkets and his pvp set bonuses to see if there's something that makes him randomly typhoon without his trying to. Nope.

So we get to the 4-mob pack right before the first boss. No sooner do I have them locked down but he drops a moonfire on the boss! I handle it, it's nbd. But I'm a little mad. After that though he behaves himself all the way through the instance. Then, at the very end...someone votes to kick him right before the last boss. I actually declined. The dude spent 2/3rds of the run behaving..much as the start irritated me I'm not gonna deprive him of his frosts right before the boss. That's a jerk move. I probably shoulda kicked him after the first couple pulls, but I try to be a nice guy.

Matthew Dryden
01-03-2010, 10:07 PM
I started played 1 week before 3.3 came out. I had tried WoW before, but no class stuck as well as playing a protection warrior did. I was already level 25 (recruit-a-friend) by some casual playing when the random dungeon finder was introduced.

Long story short, I've been tanking instances since level 25. I have been learning the tank role from the ground up; refining my rotations, learning how to chain pull, mark targets, and LOS-pull all with random groups.

I love the random dungeon finder, especially as a tank.

Being a tank for terrible groups just means you have to work harder to keep aggro, stay alive, and rely on basic skills just to get by. I have gotten some truly terrible groups in the 30-40 range, but we were all mostly learning the game still. One memorable instance was when I was completely undergeared for Uldaman, but my healer did his best until I started tightening up my rotations and cooldowns until the DPSers stopped pulling aggro off of me.

I was really enjoying the groups until I hit 55-65 content. This is when the terrible attitudes start. People think that they know their roles inside-out, and expect you to not make a single-fucking-mistake. I know that I'm not the best tank ever, but I hold my own. I don't care if you've ran this instance 4 times already, the tank pulls, and you fire at the targets.

I've been known to get a little mouthy when we wipe for a stupid reason like an extra pull, or when I die and see that the healer has full mana, but I've learned to shut my mouth and just do my job. People think they deserve respect at level 55-65 for some reason, I'm not sure why.

My single worst experience as a tank was going into an instance with a mouthy DK who was much better geared than I. Now I was handling the mobs pretty well, but I didn't know the instance at all (Hellfire Citidal, I think). I accidentally pulled a patroling mob with the normal pull and we wiped. From that point on, I was constantly fighting for aggro with the DK who was using that "get over here" skill y'all got. Eventually I said, "You spank it, you tank it."

Thankfully, my healer was understanding and focus on me, letting the DK go down every few pulls. I love tanking and everything that comes with it. Doing randoms with PUGs is making me a better tank in the long run. I don't bitch when DPS pulls of off me. I do what I can to get the mob back and figure out what I can do to keep it from happening.

But yeah, I've seen every single one of those scenarios go down. I'm not discouraged, nor pissed. I just deal with the assholes as they come. I'll be the better player in the end.

Kisain
01-03-2010, 10:54 PM
Sure i have had these issues but if a dps gets trigger happy i just turn a blind eye for some time after they're ressed from a slap in the face they usually stiffen up and listen

Jackripster
01-03-2010, 10:56 PM
I definitely feel the attitude of pugs towards tanks and heroics in general doesnt help the shortage. Todate ive pretty much just done the 1 random per day to get the frost badges. Being a GM time is often an issue, so over xmas without raids i decided ill hit more heroics simply to help out with the tank shortage.

The very first 'extra' heroic i run i get CoS, theres a DPS warrior doing 600-700dps but we're getting it done so leave it at that. We complete the timed run with about 5 minutes to spare which is very slow by usual standards, but the groups dps was low even considering the dps war. At the end of the run i inspected him to find he's all 232 gear, unarmed, unenchanted, no gems. Basically fully badge & heroic drop geared and cant even be bothered putting in while being carried and still feels the need to abuse people, amazing. I tanked a few more heroics, but this left a pretty bitter taste so i dont see myself doing as many as i would.

Id like to see the system better group people to their gearing lvls. So if people want to gear their alts with minimal effort they cant do so without using and abusing the system. Without the very geared players, they'll have to put in.

PatrikL
01-04-2010, 01:06 AM
I tanked Nexus a few days ago with among others a warrior who kept pulling groups ahead of me and seemed very fond of opening with a blade storm. I dont mind guildies or ppl I know doing this but after getting to the first boss and him standing still in the bosses whirlwind I lost it and just let him die. I very rarely pass on taunting mobs off stupid dps'ers, mostly it happens as a reflex. Long story short, after having finished the instance with not too many deaths (all by him) I leave the group and minutes later find myself getting nasty whispers from him (along the lines of "shite tank" and "noob"). Trying to tell him that considering that he was the only one who died (and bottom dps, far below me) he should consider the fact that it might be him doing something wrong rather than me...

Also tanked Pit of Saron this morning with a nice group and I really have no complaints about that run. Only had a few deaths but completely the ppls faults who died (which they immediately also said), but I do have a question about it. We started by skipping the story part in the begining and just rode past it. Having engaged the first big guy up on the right hand side I decided to pull a few more so I took two more and someone also managed to pull a caster from somewhere (might be that the first dude always comes after you I dont know). Well anyway we ended up with 4 elite mobs and as the dps wasnt great (maybe 12k total) it took a while for them to go down. No problems with the healing at all and the healer had most of his mana left after the fight when one of the dps'ers says "please dont pull so many!". I dont generally pull too many at once with pugs but I fail to see what the problem was. No one was getting seriously hurt (definately no one close to dying) but maybe some ppl just panic when the tank takes on too many?
All in all it was a very nice run (+ me being top on the damage list is always an ego boost) but I do wonder why some ppl (except healers ofc) object to bigger pulls?

Eisen
01-04-2010, 01:13 AM
...someone also managed to pull a caster from somewhere (might be that the first dude always comes after you I dont know

There's a caster with a pack of skels that pats upto the terrace that skeleton you were fighting is on. If you don't watch he'll get you in the back.

As to your question about big pulls, it could jsut be the fear of dying, I guess.

Xianth
01-04-2010, 01:14 AM
stupid people can only play dps -> 90% of all dpsers in heroics are stupid -> stupid DPS blame the tank for their stupidity -> less tanks

PatrikL
01-04-2010, 01:49 AM
There's a caster with a pack of skels that pats upto the terrace that skeleton you were fighting is on. If you don't watch he'll get you in the back.

As to your question about big pulls, it could jsut be the fear of dying, I guess.

Yeah now that you mention that group I see how it probably happened. And about the fear of dying you are prob correct there also. They might have though I didnt have it under control :-D

PatrikL
01-04-2010, 01:58 AM
stupid people can only play dps -> 90% of all dpsers in heroics are stupid -> stupid DPS blame the tank for their stupidity -> less tanks

Nah I doubt its that bad and I cant say I have had many truly stupid dps since the new LFD feature came out. Reading some comments, here and elsewhere I am starting to think I have been very lucky though. Cant say I have been "officially" blamed many times in my tanking career and I think since the latest patch dps should be even more careful than before. I do queue as dps every now and then to get some practise so I know full well how much longer the wait for a tank is. On another note, is it only me or are good DK tanks pretty uncommon? I dont just mean well geared (which seems uncommon in itself) but DK tanks chain pulling through heroics at high speed and doing so well. I guess one reason would be that we are at a disadvantage with no block on multiple low hitting mobs.

Synapse
01-04-2010, 02:11 AM
dks are more common than any other tank class among the alt-freaks and so-casual-its-dumb people who play once or twice per month.
Not only there's a large pool to notice mistakes on, the larger pool is also comprised of the people more prone to committing such mistakes.

Arvandor
01-04-2010, 02:32 AM
I think there are a number of contributing factors.

-It takes a special kind of person to enjoy tanking. These are few and far between.
-Only 3-4 tanks are actually needed for 25 man raiding guilds.
-Since these tanks are only competing against a couple other people for gear (excluding poor bears,) they get decked out incredibly fast, end up with emblems they don't know what to do with, and have no reason to run 5-mans except to help friend's alts or whatever.
-Because there are so few tanks relative to the other roles, they never get left out of guild anything, see above point about gear, but it also means that tanks have the easiest time getting guildie henchmen to drag around for whatever reason. A raid tank is the last person in a guild who would need to actually use the dungeon finder, if he wanted to do some emblem farming. This spoils tanks fast =) Even decent PuGs can look horribad next to the daily run you did with a few of your core group the other day.
-People who aren't experienced tanks (and even experienced tanks on undergeared alts) get heavily abused by PuGs. This can be more than a little discouraging.
-Gearing is a pain in the ass. Healers are easy to carry, especially if you run 3rd healer with a pair that can two-heal the content or if you can latch onto a 40k+ hp paladin who is immune to heroic damage. Dps can do what it needs to in surprisingly low gear. My hunter in mostly 213-226 gear with the 219 H-ToC gun can push 4.5-5k dps in 25 mans. A similarly geared tank would be really hard to keep alive in the same content that the hunter would be fine for. Not to mention hitting crit immunity. A healer can throw on some ghetto hit pieces and with mostly healer gear, can do respectable dps in their off-spec. Alternately a boomkin could heal with some hit pieces and do fine (see: healers are easy to carry.) You can't pull this off as a dps who wants to tank. New tanks have it the worst. People will take sub-1.5k dps through heroics and not say anything, even though sub-1.5k dps at 80 is operator error, but if the tank doesn't have 30k+ hp then it's gtfo.

I'm sure there are other reasons I can add to this, and perhaps will if I think of them. Basically it doesn't amount to any one thing, and each tank or not tank could have entirely different reasons for not running randoms or not wanting to play a tank.

gabbu
01-04-2010, 03:17 AM
The only real pug issue I have is being TOP damage for the whole run, trust me its not funny :(

Arvandor
01-04-2010, 03:19 AM
Eh, I do more damage on both my Dk and bear than I expect dps to pull in heroics, so it doesn't bother me at all when it happens. It's always bothered me when dps are doing sub-1.5k in heroics though. There's just no excuse for that.

Synapse
01-04-2010, 03:20 AM
The only real pug issue I have is being TOP damage for the whole run, trust me its not funny :(
Maintankadin • View topic - The PuG carrying thread (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=19&t=27284&rb_v=viewtopic)

We turned that into a competition.

duniank
01-04-2010, 03:31 AM
i found what you said about tanks rarely getting thanked oh so true. the other day i was in HoL and look the left to come up on the 1st boss. we cleared the first 2 tiers of mobs and were commin up on the third but the boss was commin around. for some reason a stuipid dps pulled the super charged boss, 1 tier of mobs (about 4 of thoes), and 2 of thoes little bridges betweeen tiers (4 mobs from there) i tank the boss, his 2 adds, 4 adds from one tier, and 4 mobs from the bridges. the dps obvisusly did it on purpose because he waited until the general was in just the right spot to pull it all.

the part that angers me: i saved the dps, tanked all thoes mobs and noone died. when it was all over the only thing they said was "Wow nice healz"

Manginae
01-04-2010, 03:46 AM
I hate when people blame me for their mistakes. For instance, this morning while doing my daily in POS, the healer stood next to the adds and got healing aggro and died. (last boss). All the dps get up in arms about how i tanked him too close to the adds. I said "there is a whole room he can go." One said "dude dont blame him for your mistake" and with that i linked recount of which he was last, and i was 1st, and said yep. Gl.

Fitzlestick
01-04-2010, 03:50 AM
2 Stories !
#1 Once I was in UK chainpulling stuff, and I had to sneeze (been a bit sick for a week now). Some DPS complained why I stopped... I must have stood still no more then 30 seconds.

#2 Healer with 80% mana complaining: Please stop ! Mana break !
He wasn't drinking while typing that, so it must have taking him longer to type it then to drink to full. And it was a priest, so use your shadowfiend or whatever...


I also only do 1-3 random heroics a day. The first is for myself, and sometimes just to help guildies. It's rare that I go without at least 3 other guildies wanting a shorter waiting time.

What sucks most is that the wait-time on kicking someone in a pug is usually longer then actually completing the heroic. I think it's about 15 minutes, which is far too long. Pugs with unenchanted/ungemmed crap gear and/or doing less then 1500 dps shouldn't be in heroics.

I think the biggest reason for lack of tanks for heroics is how few tanks are needed to raid. You have a lot of dps that don't raid, usually to PVP, but you don't have a lot of tanks that don't want to raid. And in my guild we have 3 tanks (dk, pala and warrior) out of 35 active players today (8 healers and 24 dps). So that is 1 tank for every 2.6 healers and 8 dps. No wonder there is a shortage. In every guild I have been, not only there are less tanks then dps/healer, but their attendance is also a lot higher, meaning you have even less in total.

Hammerfists
01-04-2010, 03:55 AM
Worst group i ever had was a halls of stone with 4 members of a guild on a diffrent server than mine. I was setting pallypower when the enhance shaman blerts out pull already. I begin to type "relax let me buff first" but before i can finish he already pulls. I try my best to shake it off but they continue to pull for me and mock me in party chat. Needless to say i stayed less than 5 pulls.

Xianth
01-04-2010, 04:46 AM
Nah I doubt its that bad and I cant say I have had many truly stupid dps since the new LFD feature came out. Reading some comments, here and elsewhere I am starting to think I have been very lucky though. Cant say I have been "officially" blamed many times in my tanking career and I think since the latest patch dps should be even more careful than before. I do queue as dps every now and then to get some practise so I know full well how much longer the wait for a tank is. On another note, is it only me or are good DK tanks pretty uncommon? I dont just mean well geared (which seems uncommon in itself) but DK tanks chain pulling through heroics at high speed and doing so well. I guess one reason would be that we are at a disadvantage with no block on multiple low hitting mobs.


Well, it depends on your experience as a tank. I personally havn't experienced DPS "bad enough" to fuck things up for me because I have a lot of experience as tank and can handle pretty much any shit situation in a heroic (and out gear it, of course). These same DPS could probably make it a nightmare for a new tank (especially in say HoR) and cause wipes/deaths which would then be blamed on the tank.

Mačl
01-04-2010, 04:54 AM
I have to say I have had some AMAZING runs both as a tank and as a healer.

Yesterday, I was tanking FOS.
You know those wide spread groups of caster mobs right at the start? Well, I did some of my most amazing tanking feats and had them all tightly gouped on one spot. Warrior tanking heaven. Every trick in the book. Then this DPS DK deathgrips one of the casters to him instead of running into the group. Can't say I could be bothered to taunt the mob off of him. He continued this with every smaller mob he ran across. When challenged by the healer he said that he can easily take the punishment and always does this. Annoyingly he didn't die. Not even once.

I have too many badges.
I had too much time on my hands over the christmas holidays so I went on an all out tanking spree. So far I have managed to pick up an ilvl232 Fury set, filled up some gaps in my tanking set and still have 100 outdated badges sitting in my bags. So why should I want to tank?

I like the challenge(tank/healer).
Good groups are boring. I love newbies. People who do their first wobbly steps in a heroic. I'm patient. See? I got the achievement.
I had one run as a Disc healer I'm really proud of. I got placed into a Nexus group of four people from the same guild. Turns out they were coaching a green bear tank in Vent. I have to say, I did my fines ever healing since aggro was all over the place and the tank still had a couple of quest greens. 14 well placed pain suppressions in one run. I only had two dead group members on that giant mob with the ice spikes(forgot his name) due to partly fail by dps and me having to go all out on the tank. Sounds like a nightmare? Nope! That was pure fun. It beats the hell out of simply healing by shielding and Nova spam.

I hate the challenge(DPS).
Since I had farmed a complete fury set I entered the tool as DPS just to see how the other half lives.
Many healers and tanks are really DPS with an offspec for faster invites. And it really shows in some places. Fury warriors are bound to find the weakly tanked mob. They really, really have to be prepared to die. Even if the tank and healer are awesome. So let's just say I'm in a position to find the weak links in the group setup.
More than once I started a run as Fury just to end it as Tank. Most famously when the tank got lost in COT4 and I silently switched over to tank. Just barely finished the time run with only 30s to spare.
So you sit there waiting 15 minutes for an invite just to get a fail group. That really has to be frustrating.

The situation gets better.
Over the last couple of days those DDs with an tank/healer offspec have become better. They really have. Many of them have by now finished at least 20 heroics and the tanking/healing experience of the unwashed masses has improved.
The new LFG system is a very good thing because it makes players consider tanking/healing that otherwise wouldn't have bothered. It's been a rough start but the player base as a whole is becoming more knowledgeable.

Azuae
01-04-2010, 04:55 AM
When i'm on my pally, I don't mind being one of the top dmg people in the run - it happens farily easily. My warrior though is another story.

dirt
01-04-2010, 06:14 AM
To this point, I really can't say anything but good things about the new LFG tool. Thus far I can only think of 1 bad experience with a Pally healer in HoR the first week, other than that it's been smooth sailing on the whole. Certainly, having 42k unbuffed allows me to compensate for almost anything in heroics, but by the same token you still need a competent healer and adequate dps.

I think like many of you who've already posted, it comes down to the same reasons for all of us. After you have all the badges you need running 5mans sort of becomes old hat. Even in the groups that were smooth sailing, I still get those people who like to think there better than they are, tell you to go this way or tank them here. I just shrug it off. I like to get inside, pull and be done with it as quickly as possible without alot of wasting time.

Last night I got in queue for H. Nexus, started off just like the example on page one...I went right and the group went left and the DK tells me I'm going the wrong way. I think to myself is there really a wrong way in Nexus, it's a big circle....we start pulling and get to the room with the guys in ice blocks and the DK says in party chat, "Who's tanking this?" I speak up and say I am, why? He then asks my why I'm 2nd on the DPS? I lol and ask him if I really need explain that. Seriously, we had a hunter in the group who was doing like 250 dps, and he was in mostly epics. Anyways, the run goes smoothly, no wipes and we get to the last boss and the DK again rambles on about he doesn't think we have the dps to beat him. I speak up and say, listen I didn't come here to fail, we got this. Everyone needs to rachet it up and lay some dps on this guy. We proceed to 1 shot him and I end up first on dps on that fight.

So to sum up why there are not as many tank's in LFG, probably due to the mental anguish most of us have to take. Especially if your a new tank learning the ropes. People expect you to hoist the group on your shoulders and carry them through. Anything short of that and you are considered a fail tank.

Chamenas
01-04-2010, 06:59 AM
I'm not sure why people like to be so contrary. Maybe you're just trying to defend the new LFG system? I have nothing against it at all and consider it one of the best changes to come from a patch that Blizzard has done.

But those stories of fail experiences are out there, most of them are amusing. Hence this thread, I've really enjoyed some of the stories so far. I hope even the people that were frustrated with them can look back and laugh.

Kojiyama
01-04-2010, 07:28 AM
Main reason in my case:

Most of my guild is so desperate to avoid pugging random Arms DPS Warriors queued as "tanks" to get into dungeons faster that I have a nearly full group clamouring to queue up with me for my daily every day.

That said, I leveled my Priest to 80 recently and ran an ungodly amount of random heroics in 2-3 days (50+) in order to gear up as quickly as possible. Honestly, healing heroics is very relaxing compared to tanking and generally not a problem. I would die of frustration if I had to do that as a tank, though--even though my gear level is such that I can pull groups through quite easily, you have to deal with the mistakes of others in a very direct and stressful way.

Healing can be like that as well, but realistically you spend 90% of the time watching nothing happen in heroics and thus the 'exciting' moments are actually kinda fun--whereas tanking you pretty much always have to be busy and watching out for the cases of random stupidity.

Tanking in pugs is just draining, moreso than DPS or Healing by far. It doesn't help that I have actually outdamaged all the "DPS" in the last two randoms I've done when they were at odd hours without guildies around.

One run a day isn't too bad as a well-geared tank, just because it goes quickly and you basically know you are nearly invincible in old content like that. (Heaven forbid you get HoR with randoms, though...) However I wouldn't call it "fun" at all, even though I love my Warrior to death.

Sennex
01-04-2010, 07:41 AM
I have had a few issues like these, but its died down allot recently.

The main reason I attribute for this is that I tank, and my wife plays a Healer (Priest). So we are in and out insanely fast, if my wife isnt' on, then there are three dr00ds in my guild that play the same time frames I play and will jump in and heal for me at the drop of a hat.

The few times we have had DPS jerks that want to do things like are posted above, or that talk trash because I am a Frost DK Tank (DW) (Still not sure why folks balk at DK tanks), either I or my wife point out how fast and easy it is to replace DPS, and they tend to shut up fast. Granted we have had to boot quite a few folks, but I have yet to see any vote to kick someone be turned down when I or her post it up.

Mert
01-04-2010, 07:46 AM
A bear from my guild generally starts his pugs by saying "I'll make this a nice fast run for you but if you pull it you're tanking it and no I won't battle res you for overaggroing", heh.

Zyffyr
01-04-2010, 07:48 AM
Nearly every random group I have had so far has been good. The exceptions on the other hand, have been horrid.

My personal favorite :

Heroic Old Kingdom, on my Paladin. I load in, get near the rest of the people (who all managed to load in faster than me and were already down by the first mobs), and start buffing. About the time I cast the 3rd blessing the DPS warrior gets impatient and pulls. I stop buffing, run over grab the mobs and tank them. Go to cast the remaining blessings (and I am using Pally Power, so we are talking GCD speed), and the warrior pulls the 2 roamers in front of the stairs. Again I rush over pick them up and we kill them. I actually get to be the one to pull the walking trash pack at the top of the stairs, and all goes well. They even die fast enough that Avenger's Shield is still on cooldown when the last dies. Being the sensible person I am, I decide to wait the 4 seconds before I try to gather up the next group. Guess who charges in? Yes, MR. Dumbass Warrior. Again, I head in pick them up and tank them.

After the mobs die DAW says "WTF man, if you don't want to tank don't queue as a tank", and pulls the next group immediately.

Mert
01-04-2010, 07:52 AM
After the mobs die DAW says "WTF man, if you don't want to tank don't queue as a tank", and pulls the next group immediately.

Try queuing with a healer friend - if you're lucky only you and your friend will be able to res them. Forcing them to run back in each time they decide to ninja pull will teach them how it works pretty quickly.

Chamenas
01-04-2010, 07:56 AM
I have had a few issues like these, but its died down allot recently.

The main reason I attribute for this is that I tank, and my wife plays a Healer (Priest). So we are in and out insanely fast, if my wife isnt' on, then there are three dr00ds in my guild that play the same time frames I play and will jump in and heal for me at the drop of a hat.

The few times we have had DPS jerks that want to do things like are posted above, or that talk trash because I am a Frost DK Tank (DW) (Still not sure why folks balk at DK tanks), either I or my wife point out how fast and easy it is to replace DPS, and they tend to shut up fast. Granted we have had to boot quite a few folks, but I have yet to see any vote to kick someone be turned down when I or her post it up.

Tanked ICC 10 last night. I groaned when I realized who was leading it, because that guild on my server is notorious for being douches. Lo and behold, I zone in and he looks at my gear. "Why do you have the new trinket from emblems?" "Because, I haven't been able to get better stam trinkets." "omg, you're a DW tank, all the DW tanks I've known are fail. If you suck I have no problem kicking you."

I did fine all night, not perfect, but I did my job. But I could hear him in vent all night muttering under his breath about how fail DK and especially DW DK Tanks were. However, I pulled more threat than the Warrior tank (who slapped Vigilance on me, which I HATE) and I took much less damage than whatever Vigilance might have prevented.

Mori78
01-04-2010, 08:09 AM
I spent almost an hour in hTOC-5 last night. I have 32k hp, def capped, some mighty fine gear for any 5 man but HoR. We died on EVERY Boss. The crowning glory was the Black Knight. Phase one, the zombie constantly resets aggro, and jumps around beating people til I can yank him back. Then he exploded with the lock standing right next to him. Next phase, all those adds, running everywhere, I disease and HB them all, throw down D&D, BB, AoE like a fiend with just enough attention on the BK himself to keep him targeted.... so he dies, and dps 2 stands in the middle while the zombies ALL explode.... phase 3 starts, wherein the BK begins AoE all over... healer can't keep up, last dps goes down right after healer dies, I die last.
Walk back in
start buffing/eating/pissing/moaning


"WTF, learn to tank man"
"no kidding, I pulled aggro on that fight every 5 seconds"
"you have to keep them off us so we can dps"

......
.......
........

Nez
01-04-2010, 08:11 AM
I run my 2 tanks through randoms every day and the new 5 ICC heroics as well. I think it just seems like there are no tanks because there are so many more dpsers in Que vs tanks. After my 2 tanks, I take my hunter to hers, so I get to wait also if there are no guild tanks going in.

The random thing is pretty much like tossing out a call to fill a pug in trade. Sometimes its great, sometimes its horrid. But for the most part I'd say 90% of the groups I've been in have been fine. Maybe not uber DPS but enough to get through the instances. That may be easier for me because my tanks are all at ToCG Icc Gear level so even the Ret Paly in PVP gear who Qued as a healer can still keep me alive LOL.

Lately I've started to see a trend of people waiting till the last loot then ninja-needing everything. So I've started to wait to see how everyone rolls before I do. Other than that I do like the system.


BTW - Try dropping your AoD on that P2 in ToC. Besides the Hilarity, works great.
:D

Sennex
01-04-2010, 08:13 AM
Tanked ICC 10 last night. I groaned when I realized who was leading it, because that guild on my server is notorious for being douches. Lo and behold, I zone in and he looks at my gear. "Why do you have the new trinket from emblems?" "Because, I haven't been able to get better stam trinkets." "omg, you're a DW tank, all the DW tanks I've known are fail. If you suck I have no problem kicking you."

I did fine all night, not perfect, but I did my job. But I could hear him in vent all night muttering under his breath about how fail DK and especially DW DK Tanks were. However, I pulled more threat than the Warrior tank (who slapped Vigilance on me, which I HATE) and I took much less damage than whatever Vigilance might have prevented.

Same here, I have tanked all the 10 man content in LK as DW, and I do my job fairly well (Except HoR, I can't get the hang of that place). Gear Score is like 4780 (?) using the mod, so I know I am not bad, but still folks gripe and just can't seem to get it through their heads.

This has actually caused me to start leading more PUG Raids though, I led an Ony the other night after two rogues stared telling an unguilded friend of mine to drop me as tank because DW DK's sucked. After we downed her with no losses, I posted in raid that they needed to grow up and stop talking trash without seeing what someone was capable of. (Might have been childish on my part)

Mori78
01-04-2010, 08:23 AM
BTW - Try dropping your AoD on that P2 in ToC. Besides the Hilarity, works great.
:D

The truly sad thing is that I DID drop my army on phase 2 that try... and they STILL got themselves killed. And they still blamed me......

I figure if they are trying that hard to die, I shouldn't keep them from their goal

Chamenas
01-04-2010, 09:18 AM
I always drop AotD on phase 2 of the Black Knight, it's amazing.

Mooney
01-04-2010, 09:32 AM
The main reason there are so little tanks. at least 50% of wow players are trash and tanking take more awareness than dps(or healing imo but thats another debate) so people refuse to tank because they cant afk(at least mentally) through the instance.

I tank 2 pugs every day one daily and one FoS(damn trinket) i dont really care about the pugs but there are a few where i have left. I mainly gauge my chain pulls on the group dps and sometimes i ask "mind if i chain pull?" it works well for me.

The dic move i pull sometimes is on FoS i always say "Kill the orbs/souls when they come out" before the first boss pull. I actually made a macro for it. A couple times with slow dps the souls will come out and i'll start kiting the boss and no one dps's the orb. I'll hit my macro a couple more times... then mark skull and still no dps. So by this point the boss went from 60% back up to 85% twice so i just left the group in the middle of a fight.(intant tele to dal ftw) i know its a dic move but im not going to waste 12g on some pugs from a diff server that cant read.

Fenier
01-04-2010, 09:44 AM
I play two tanks, a Feral Bear, and a Prot Warrior.

Various things that have happened to me recently.

H Old Kingdom on the Warrior: Pickup Hunter would mark and lay into his own targets, which were -not- the ones the rest of the group were on. I'm not 100% sure but he may have had distracting shot in his rotation because it was that common he yanked (just one) mob off me, and didn't feign.

H FoS on the Warrior - 3 4k+ DPS are incapable of killing Soul Fragment, blame me when we wiped due to their inability to target switch.

H FoS on the Bear - the huge 2 pack guards that spell reflect. I am tanking a set of those, DK runs up stops at the bottom of the ramp, and DGs one of the guards off me. Decided to let him die, since he wanted to tank that badly I felt it was best to let him live the dream.

H PoS on the Bear - the multi caster packs on the mountain. I mark the casters first, I specifically focus on the Flame Bearers, and I save bash for them. I die, with 50k hp and 32k armor. Check recount, I had 1 rejuvenate ticking as my only healing taken for over 15 seconds. Druid was not afk, just slacking. My fault for dying because apparently the group is undergeared.

H Nexus on the Warrior, DPS druid screws up and aggros a pack you can avoid, while I am tanking a pack. Healer dies, we don't wipe. I ask the Ret Pally to rez the healer (Druid also died by aggroing a 3rd pack somehow). Pickup Hunter starts giving me a hard time about the priest dying. Said hunter had done 900 DPS all freaking run. Vote Kicked him before final boss.

And not tanking related...

My Girlfriend playing her Priest was blamed for a H PoS wipe on Garfrost because both melee DPS decided having 20+ stacks of Permafrost was the way to go.

And finally, leveling my Mage through the mid 30s and every single group I had, had a Paladin tank... which was ret spec'd. Seriously wth?

Skywar
01-04-2010, 10:00 AM
I tank at a fast pace and now since I have all the badge gear I dont tank 5-mans anymore. I usually ran into jerks that would complain I was going to fast or that they wanted to kill certain things. I also ran into people pulling under 1.5k dps trying to get the new level 232 epic gear. I didnt have the patience for all that which is the reason why I only run with guildies now. If everyone would be thoughtful of their tank and apprietiate what we do then things would be a lot smoother.

Theotherone
01-04-2010, 10:27 AM
I always wonder why, if tanking is sooooo easy, there aren't more of us?

Fledern
01-04-2010, 10:36 AM
I run my tank random daily early in the morning. That usually puts me together with really great people. Pulls are made properly, only the mob i'm working on is dps'd even though i dont bother marking, stuff dies extremely fast and yes i have to work for my aggro but for such great groups i'll gladly do it.

On the other hand, i've become a total asshole for fail groups. The second i see any sort of whining, i'll quit party. It takes me less than 10 secs to find a group anyway, no need to stress myself over some clueless dude.

Even then, i dont tank more than my once-a-day. Often times i'll jump on my healer and party up with my fury warrior friend. He goes in in full fury gear & berserker stance but since he pulls 9K+ dps on heroic trash, stuff goes down real fast :) and aggro is less of a problem than trying to keep aggro vs him as a tank. We usually have a lot of fun with random dps showing up, asking who's tanking, start qq'ing, getting told to shut up by me and then finishing the instance in record time :)

Now here's an entertaining run i had as a tank: My friend is Akhilleus, the above-mentioned fury warrior.

Akhilleus: I was talking with Todu (our server's best geared fury warrior. Akhi is #2) a few mins ago. We talked about finding some poor tank and going into a heroic and abusing him. hehe.
Akhilleus has invited you to a party.
You have joined a party.
Todu has joined the party.
You are now queued in the Dungeon Finder.
Me: Oh shit.
Akhilleus gains Guru's Elixir
Todu gains Guru's Elixir.
Welcome to Pit of Saron (Heroic)

Interestingly, it was one of the best instance runs i had. Todu & Akhi were racing on the dps meters, popping trinkets & cooldowns all over the place, each pulling 8-10K, i somehow managed to keep aggro through it all. PoS cleared in record time :)

BruisedOoze
01-04-2010, 10:43 AM
A rogue was TotT pulling on the tank repeatedly and the warrior asked him to stop it (I wish in some ways there was cross realms whispering so I could have told the tank to remove the TotT buff as the rogue pulled). The rogue didn't stop and told the tank to "QQ." I was healing and suddenly I became ignorant of the color yellow. The rogue died 4 or 5 times after that (a very well equipped one 245-260s stuff hehehe).

Rogue: WTF you didn't heal me at all
Me: Unfortunately I couldn't stop a wildgrowth from hitting you so you got something.
Rogue: %$^&ing baddies
Tank: And here I thought I was losing aggro lol
Me: Nope. You did just right :)

I love places with incidental damage. I'll heal people that do silly things. It doesn't bother me. But as soon as I determine you're being an unbearable arse I'll leave if it's the tank, or the DPS is going to find themselves on a disproportionate ratio of healing received to damage taken.

Aliena
01-04-2010, 10:44 AM
Queuing as healer on Aliena I pretty much get instant queues, always. Not sure why but I've never waited more than half a minute. It is kinda nice. Apart from 2 tanks I've had pretty good luck with them so far, too.

Darksend
01-04-2010, 10:46 AM
3 DPS in full 245 epics, and I as the tank am doing 50% of the groups total damage

Bovinity
01-04-2010, 10:46 AM
A rogue was TotT pulling on the tank repeatedly and the warrior asked him to stop it (I wish in some ways there was cross realms whispering so I could have told the tank to remove the TotT buff as the rogue pulled).

Hehehe, I actually enjoy that. There's a rogue in my guild that likes to pop engineering boots and zip ahead and ToT/FoK packs of stuff onto me as I'm running along. Keeps me occupied and moving along. =D

Darksend
01-04-2010, 10:49 AM
Hehehe, I actually enjoy that. There's a rogue in my guild that likes to pop engineering boots and zip ahead and ToT/FoK packs of stuff onto me as I'm running along. Keeps me occupied and moving along. =D

OMG nothing makes me happier than a rogue or hunter with engineering.

I LOVE IT WHEN THEY RUN AHEAD AND PULL 3 PACKS WITH TRICKS/MD AFTER ROCKET BOOTING!!!!!

(that's not sarcasim either I genuinely would give them a cookie for that every time they did it if I could)

Chamenas
01-04-2010, 10:54 AM
Queuing as healer on Aliena I pretty much get instant queues, always. Not sure why but I've never waited more than half a minute. It is kinda nice. Apart from 2 tanks I've had pretty good luck with them so far, too.

Never waited longer than 10 seconds as a tank!

@ Bovinity - As long as you're fine with it, clearly that tank wasn't.

Edit: I'd probably like it too. Though if the group is good enough to handle it, I'm probably moving fast enough to pick up enough for the group anyways.

duka
01-04-2010, 10:56 AM
is so much of pressure tanking,and when its your first time tanking and reaching endgame its even worse
now im gaining confidence with my tanking doing some 10 mans but i cant really do 25 right now (just some with guild but not pugs) people sometiems its just a game and they arent willing to help anyone that is "lower" than them
its stupid because same people who blame tanks on lfg and disencourage them to tank are the ones whinning about not having enough tanks available in pugs

Akeber
01-04-2010, 11:17 AM
I'm tanking on my lvl 78 warrior. I always mark a skull to give the non-aoe classes something to focus on. For some reason the spriest keeps pulling threat on off targets so I glance at omen and see that he's doesn't have a spec of threat on skull. So I tell him that I'm marking skull as a primary kill target and if he's going to focus fire that should be the one. His response is something like "it takes too long for me to build up damage and skull will die too fast, just thunderclap more". /facepalm

Sennex
01-04-2010, 11:24 AM
And finally, leveling my Mage through the mid 30s and every single group I had, had a Paladin tank... which was ret spec'd. Seriously wth?


This cracks me up!

In two weeks of trying I still haven't been able to get through a full Scarlett monastery because of Fury Warriors and Ret Pallies thinking they can tank.

I refuse to ask my guild for help though, now its like a crusade with me to get it done purely with a Pug.

Roana
01-04-2010, 11:31 AM
Hehehe, I actually enjoy that. There's a rogue in my guild that likes to pop engineering boots and zip ahead and ToT/FoK packs of stuff onto me as I'm running along. Keeps me occupied and moving along. =D

The thing is, different tanks have different comfort levels. If you do that on a tank who's just getting back into WoW after a couple of months absence, you're likely to stress her out. Doing this stuff without asking is pretty rude, but totally fine if consensual.

Roana
01-04-2010, 11:36 AM
And finally, leveling my Mage through the mid 30s and every single group I had, had a Paladin tank... which was ret spec'd. Seriously wth?

Because low level paladin protection talents are worse for tanking than low level retribution talents. You get a lot of mitigation stuff that you don't need or for which there's equivalent in the retribution tree (dodge vs. parry is a wash), you can't get Spiritual Attunement until level 40, etc. Seal of Command + Vindication + Deflection is probably better for tanking at low levels than all of the first six tiers of the protection tree put together.

cilaren
01-04-2010, 11:38 AM
My bear tank is rarely in the dungeon system, but the reason isn't fail pugs, it's helping guildies.

There are a lot more DPSers in our guild than tanks, even counting alts. Generally speaking, I'll tank the daily random for three DPSers on my bear, then one of them will swap to their tank and run my warlock through. My healer rarely waits long in the queue so I don't worry about her so much, but I can almost guarantee I'll get a request to heal a daily random from someone I know.

With so many requests from guild DPS for randoms, there's really no reason whatsoever for me to use the random dungeon finder. I'm willing to bet a lot of other tanks find themselves in the same situation.

Inaara
01-04-2010, 11:40 AM
The only reason I'm not in LFG is because I queue up in 2 seconds. God I love tanking.

Kazeyonoma
01-04-2010, 11:47 AM
The only reason I'm not in LFG is because I queue up in 2 seconds. God I love tanking.

this

Cholerabob
01-04-2010, 12:10 PM
I just start every LFG PuG with " You pull it , you tank it " and normally everyting goes ok, yeah there are some jerks in there, but the majority are not so bad. If it gets real bad ( like that DK that kept putting his D&D in my face before pulls or that Hunter that kept sending his pet after mobs), i just drop group.

Chamenas
01-04-2010, 12:22 PM
Because low level paladin protection talents are worse for tanking than low level retribution talents. You get a lot of mitigation stuff that you don't need or for which there's equivalent in the retribution tree (dodge vs. parry is a wash), you can't get Spiritual Attunement until level 40, etc. Seal of Command + Vindication + Deflection is probably better for tanking at low levels than all of the first six tiers of the protection tree put together.

This.


Until about level 60, you can tank dungeons as a Ret paladin or a Non-prot warrior. It's tougher on the healer but nowhere near impossible. I healed a rogue that tanked much of Mauradon because the tank left. It's still possible even through 60, but as levels increase it becomes even tougher on the healer to deal with the amount of damage coming in on the tank and others.

BruisedOoze
01-04-2010, 12:59 PM
This.


Until about level 60, you can tank dungeons as a Ret paladin or a Non-prot warrior. It's tougher on the healer but nowhere near impossible. I healed a rogue that tanked much of Mauradon because the tank left. It's still possible even through 60, but as levels increase it becomes even tougher on the healer to deal with the amount of damage coming in on the tank and others.

Yeah, I regularly play a 5 man party with RL friends and we're about lv 37 now. Our tank is usually our prot pally but sometimes the fury warrior tanks if the pally is logging on late that night. Toss on a shield and it's a go. We're doing level equivalent instances and our healer is a new player and sure the healer had to work a bit more, but she didn't find it hard.

The nice thing about this is that it's inline with Blizz's philosophy with Cata and Fury/arms warriors being able to tank.

Insahnity
01-04-2010, 01:01 PM
I was just entertained cause I think I totally had blown his mind.


Ture, it's more because you have that effect no matter what you do.


Kudoz on the creativity, but the reason there are fewer tanks to dps and healers in lfg is that there are fewer tanks out there, period.

Until the LFG tool, people had little need to find and replace tanks every 10-15 mins (granted they had a much smaller population size to drawn on, but i'll assume for a moment the overall and tank populations grew equvalently, folly as it may be).


So this has been covered alot in this thread, but I will expand a bit. Yes, we all understand the 2-3 tanks per 25 man, but let's go a step further. Joe blow new wow player levels a DK to 80, wants to raid, but isn't an established tank and so never gets to tank raids. And lets face it folks, tanking heroics gets OLD fast, whereas raid tanking is somewhat more interesting. So he doesn't have much choice but to go DPS in order to get into a raid spot. Forcing a plate character to go DPS against their choice is pretty much a cardinal sin in my books.

Now people will say why don't they collect a tank set? Well, it depends on how much they raid. I wager most don't get much raid time, so either they
a) don't even bother rolling on tank gear (it irritates me to shard tank gear because somebody doesn't want to bother), or
b) don't have a complete set. And they can't complete it easily because they are on 20 minute timer to run heroics for badges instead of 20 seconds like tanks, and if they try and go with blues and crafted gear, they get abused in pugs and stop altogether.

And finally, while tanking is easy for us established tanks, tanking in general is MUCH harder than anything else, especially if you have geared DPS riding your ass. The ability to react fast enough to grab wandering adds, or to establish enough initial threat despite doing much less damage than a similarly geared or better pack of DPS. Keep this in mind.


I'm at the point now where I do throw my weight as a tank around a little when DPSers behave like they did in the original post. I don't care what some random_rogue thinks, or how fail he thinks my ways are. He's just a faceless, nameless, replaceable, dime-a-dozen DPSer. He can take his butt right back to his 15 minute queue if he doesn't like it. =)

Sometimes this works. But the healer is sometimes just as rare, and they are starting to throw their weight around as well. Case in point

HHoR, Arthas chase. Me on my bear, priest healer. We also have a shadow priest who was normally a healer.
Healer: Hey I know this fight. We should do the strategy where we run behind Arthas
Me: ....
Healer: This strategy works! I do it all the time. Let's do it!
Me: I don't think that's a good idea. Let's do it the normal way and if it doesn't work, then we will try your way.
Spriest: Let's go <trots ahead with the other DPS>
Healer: Well, I'm gonna do it my way
Me: <thinking he will try and bluff us, but will be forced to run after us when hes left alone. Switch to cat form to catch up with DPS, having waited for priest>
Healer: <stubbornly stands ground at the start, chasing behind Arthas. As a feral, I can track Arthas as well as the priest in cat form while hoofing it to the ice wall>
Healer dies from frost, 5 yards behind Arthas
Group wipes from a lack of heals. Group rezzes and gets ready
Me: Ok, so having you behind Arthas is a bad idea. Let's keep up and get this done.
Spriest: Yeah, let's do it normally, I don't want to wipe on a heroic again.
Healer: I'm gonna do it my way. If you don't stick with me, you won't get heals.
Group starts to move, noticing priest behind. Group votekicks priest, spriest goes heals, we finish with a DPS.

In this case, we had a healer ready, but if the healer was the holdup (Which it is sometimes), we would have been sitting in the instance, which leads to people quitting during the wait, etc..


I play two tanks, a Feral Bear, and a Prot Warrior.

Various things that have happened to me recently.

H Old Kingdom on the Warrior: Pickup Hunter would mark and lay into his own targets, which were -not- the ones the rest of the group were on. I'm not 100% sure but he may have had distracting shot in his rotation because it was that common he yanked (just one) mob off me, and didn't feign.


I play a paladin and bear myself. Both are very good at getting aggro. And by blizzard's standards, a hunter is supposed to pump blistering burst damage from ranged (note: rogues can do better, but they need to get there). Therefore, they can (and do) strip threat with an incorrect rotation devoid of misdirect, much as an arms warrior can instagib themselves with bladestorm, warlocks with overuse of seed of corruption on packs, arcane mages who PresenceOfMind-Flamestrike-IcyVeins-ArcanePower-Blizzard before tanks make decent contact, and so on.


H FoS on the Warrior - 3 4k+ DPS are incapable of killing Soul Fragment, blame me when we wiped due to their inability to target switch.


Well, this is gonna happen alot, or at least I noticed. But typically, you don't have 3 incompetent dps, you have one bad one most times. The best solution I find is to help them out. Tank in the center of the room, ranged/healers at the edge (which most do anyways). When the channeling starts, start dragging the boss 180 degrees away from the afflicted person, right to the other edge. Even with 2 average DPS, the extra distance and your personal DPS can make a significant difference (it's not guaranteed, but I would say I have seen a 2/3 improvement with this method). You still need to hope for somebody to try and snare (icy chains, frost nova, trap, etc.). A DK can do that themselves, obviously.



H FoS on the Bear - the huge 2 pack guards that spell reflect. I am tanking a set of those, DK runs up stops at the bottom of the ramp, and DGs one of the guards off me. Decided to let him die, since he wanted to tank that badly I felt it was best to let him live the dream.

I did that to a hunter doing 1200 dps in nexus, targetting the little guys before they got within my swipe range. Seeing as it was a little flower, I took my fingers off my tank buttons, and typed out "I am letting that one go, because I want people to hit my targets, like I have asked twice already", and proceeded to avoid my taunt button. We downed the adds that were supposed to down, and the group then proceeded to stand and watch (without helping, healer included) as the hunter tried to shoot it down, and then melee the flower to death.




My Girlfriend playing her Priest was blamed for a H PoS wipe on Garfrost because both melee DPS decided having 20+ stacks of Permafrost was the way to go.


Aye, seen that. And also they think to finish casting their spell while they popped their trinkets, as the big falling saronite boulder is omniously shadowing their spot, and then watch as they lose half their health and lose the cast.



And finally, leveling my Mage through the mid 30s and every single group I had, had a Paladin tank... which was ret spec'd. Seriously wth?

It's been answered as to why you would do it technically, but in reality, people who play plate for the first time and have never tanked as a bear think they can tank. The next step up in retardation is those who think they can tank simply by going frost presence/casting RF/Defensive stance/going bear, although most warriors are slightly smarter that they usually equip a shield as well. But again, they have no actual tank gear (be it by design or even by enchants). Beyond that, you have the smart ones who actually try and tank properly, gear, form and rotation.


Queuing as healer on Aliena I pretty much get instant queues, always. Not sure why but I've never waited more than half a minute. It is kinda nice. Apart from 2 tanks I've had pretty good luck with them so far, too.

*Mental note: transfer to Aliena's server, and go hordie. And bring Sugar Maple Cream cookies*

Seriously, for the first few days, healers were instant invites as well, but recently, I've been stalled for a while waiting for a healer.

Add insult to injury, I get instant queues as a tank, and then have to wait 10 minutes to form. Why? No healer! WTF! Or the worst, waiting for DPS. I curse these times, having JUST switched from my DPS/healer to tank and get going on frost badges, only to wait for DPS and healers!
And do you know why? The wait process has gotten so long, healers and DPS are basically going afk while they queue up. And the timer runs out, and we go back into queue to pick up MOAR AFKers, while my healers and DPS go for days without getting a group for frost badges.

Lakshata
01-04-2010, 01:29 PM
I've pulled before tanks do before, usually either because
A.) they're going to slow. They didn't say anything about leaving, they're geared to the teeth, and the healer has full mana.

B.)I can take something, or a group by myself with either large amounts of damage, or fearing them when they get too close.

BruisedOoze
01-04-2010, 01:36 PM
Add insult to injury, I get instant queues as a tank, and then have to wait 10 minutes to form. Why? No healer! WTF! Or the worst, waiting for DPS. I curse these times, having JUST switched from my DPS/healer to tank and get going on frost badges, only to wait for DPS and healers!
And do you know why? The wait process has gotten so long, healers and DPS are basically going afk while they queue up. And the timer runs out, and we go back into queue to pick up MOAR AFKers, while my healers and DPS go for days without getting a group for frost badges.

Unfortunately I, and I know a few online friends, are guilty of that when we want to DPS. Sometimes I queue up on my rogue then I saunter over to my workbench and work on a model, research, or read something. Usually I hear the gong when I get a match but I miss it sometimes. Especially if I was reading on the couch and decided to go into nap mode.

However I found it odd last night I had two instant queues as a DPS back to back followed by a 2 minute wait on one. Tried to ride that wave with another character but back to 15 minute times.

tarouszars
01-04-2010, 01:56 PM
I still don't know whether to feel bad or not about last nights hNexus run. I've been trying to build my DPS set so I've been running as DPS so i could need anything if I went to one of the ice crown heroics. We had a bear tank. After the first few pulls of ripping aggro every time the bear says "Give me a second, I'm not a warrior or a pally I can't easily hold multiple mobs". Well I don't know what he meant by the second half of the sentence but I'm happy to wait 5 to 10 seconds while he builds threat. I am better geared than him after all.

I still keep ripping aggro. I ask him to mark targets and get no response. I also notice that he is never going after the casters first and they are laying into the healer. I don't know how I can rip aggro after 3 hits on the tanks target, but since he's not worried about the casters maybe I'll go after them. Finally he says he's usually a DPS and is having a hard time. I ask if he'd like me to tank and I finish tanking the instance.

Now today I feel bad because I didn't give him more pointers. I didn't want to be a backseat tank and I know little about bears, but he has some major issues. He was trying. He just sucked. I'm sure he just tanked to get the instant queue time, but he was trying.

Insahnity
01-04-2010, 02:02 PM
I've pulled before tanks do before, usually either because
A.) they're going to slow. They didn't say anything about leaving, they're geared to the teeth, and the healer has full mana.

B.)I can take something, or a group by myself with either large amounts of damage, or fearing them when they get too close.

Take it from the tanks here that are geared AND skilled, this pisses us off. If you have somebody chain pulling, don't pull even more. It's not that we can't handle it, it's a heroic which we are tired of repeating for the billionth time. I don't want a challenge, I want a fast and easy run (and admitedly, I just want my GD frost emblem so I Can get on another toon and repeat).

Theotherone
01-04-2010, 02:04 PM
Take it from the tanks here that are geared AND skilled, this pisses us off. If you have somebody chain pulling, don't pull even more. It's not that we can't handle it, it's a heroic which we are tired of repeating for the billionth time. I don't want a challenge, I want a fast and easy run (and admitedly, I just want my GD frost emblem so I Can get on another toon and repeat).


Amen

Mooney
01-04-2010, 02:13 PM
This cracks me up!

In two weeks of trying I still haven't been able to get through a full Scarlett monastery because of Fury Warriors and Ret Pallies thinking they can tank.

I refuse to ask my guild for help though, now its like a crusade with me to get it done purely with a Pug.



Fury wars and ret pallys can tank... just put on shield and def stance/rightous fury. I did it on both my war and pally. its not that they cant tank it's that the players are trash.

CatabriOnEarthen
01-04-2010, 03:51 PM
Take it from the tanks here that are geared AND skilled, this pisses us off. If you have somebody chain pulling, don't pull even more. It's not that we can't handle it, it's a heroic which we are tired of repeating for the billionth time. I don't want a challenge, I want a fast and easy run (and admitedly, I just want my GD frost emblem so I Can get on another toon and repeat).

What he said. You pull for me, I drop group.

Muffin Man
01-04-2010, 04:52 PM
Most of my bad pugging experiences were from pre-LFG actually.

One notable time was when I was taking my arms set for a spin with a rogue friend. The pally couldn't tank very well and was more than a little undergeared. The pally healer was actually the problem though, since he was incapable of using beacon or healing anyone other than the tank.

Anyways, we were doing Gundrak and by the end of it, my friend and I were in vent coordinating disarms and bandaging each other since it was clear we had to fend for ourselves. My rogue friend died to an impale (I didn't get there in time with my bandages :rolleyes:). Then he proceeded to count out how long I was impaled and didn't get a single heal (I got no heals the entire fight). But finally we got the boss down and the tank got a shiny pair of gauntlers for our trouble (I can't remember if the tank was bad or just undergeared, the healer though was just bad).

It was kind of painful, very slow and oddly satisfying.

Now two stories from the new LFG era.
I was pugging my shaman to get to lvl 20 so I could get the x-mas pet. I got deadmines as a healer (he always gets thrown in as a healer and so far its been mind-numbingly boring or hair-tearingly frustrating). The tank was a pally that was lvl 20+ and *never* consecrated so I got healing aggro all the time. Add on a hunter who would attack his own mobs, pull random groups, go the wrong way... and try to run away (aggroing more people) and it was a tough, tough, instance.

Next, on my deathknight I got into a partially cleared SP with a new tank and dps. Tank doesn't wait for us and just runs to where the other two guys are. I aggro a pack, the mage dies, I solo the pack. Pally tank stands there berating us for pulling while the mage waits for a rez. That's when I realized he stood there watching us fight the pack without lending a hand. I apologize to the mage for getting him killed (he's still waiting for a rez at this point). Finally, we get going and reach the other two guys: twinked priest and shaman from the same guild.

Now that we're all together, Shaman happily goes to pull, mage and I tear into mobs. Aggro madness ensues. Shaman and mage die, I save healer, he saves me. Pally stands there *again* petulantly whining about how we're pissing him off (again he didn't do anything except watch us fight).

Now I get how annoying it is for someone else to pull, but for him to just stand there and watch *twice*... we'll I was about to swap to frost presence and pull the next pack myself. The healer actually apologized profusely and he proceeded to tank the boss (poorly). He skipped freeing Bite, which I guess is optional. But he didn't move the boss out of the water so the Shaman and I had to swim out. He also didn't cast any blessings despite the Mage asking after every rez and several times in between. I also had aggro issues the entire fight (was in Blood presence, I didn't actually swap to Frost). I did manage to outrolled him on the Unscarred Breastplate and didn't feel bad at all about it (not that it's very tanky).

I suppose I should stick to tanking since all my bad stories are bad/undergeared/annoying tanks...

Arvandor
01-04-2010, 05:57 PM
This cracks me up!

In two weeks of trying I still haven't been able to get through a full Scarlett monastery because of Fury Warriors and Ret Pallies thinking they can tank.

I refuse to ask my guild for help though, now its like a crusade with me to get it done purely with a Pug.

Ret paladins make amazing tanks until about Outlands. I did alot of ret tanking when I leveled my paladin, including a 3-man of ZF where the healer was mostly bored. I wasn't even using a shield =P

At those levels spec doesn't make all that much of an impact. Feral druids, enh shamans, etc, can heal with +int gear, anything wearing mail or better can tank, and all the old world instances can be easily 2 or 3 manned. I can't even imagine how you could fail to succeed at Scarlet Monestary unless you have a druid healing you in feral gear or something, and even then you should be able to get through with enough drink breaks.

Roana
01-04-2010, 06:36 PM
I can't even imagine how you could fail to succeed at Scarlet Monestary unless you have a druid healing you in feral gear or something, and even then you should be able to get through with enough drink breaks.

The traditional way to wipe in the SM was to let runners get away and eventually become overwhelmed as more and more adds came (pretty much anything in there, except Myrmidons, who enrage, starts running at low health).

I'm not sure how it is these days.

The other traditional way to wipe was to get killed by Herod. On his original version, where one swing of Blades of Light could take out half your health bar, not the nerfed version we got soon after. Obviously, this is no longer a significant risk.

I suspect you can still get the entire Cathedral if you pull Mograine without clearing everything first.

Muffin Man
01-04-2010, 06:48 PM
The traditional way to wipe in the SM was to let runners get away and eventually become overwhelmed as more and more adds came (pretty much anything in there, except Myrmidons, who enrage, starts running at low health).

I remember loving abilities that kept people from running (was it a pally seal or warlock curse? I forget). DPS was so low back then that killing runners wasn't always trivial.


I suspect you can still get the entire Cathedral if you pull Mograine without clearing everything first.

Still happens, and is a *great* way to power level some lowbies.

Eisen
01-04-2010, 06:52 PM
Two other surefire ways to die in SM:

1) Let the stupid healers live long enough to chain heal everything you smack.
2) Forget the army of twits that come running at you when Herod dies.

Grannos
01-05-2010, 08:41 AM
I don't get to reply here much, because my connection at work seems to be evil when i come to this and most sites. Some times I can, other times I can't.

I don't get to do much tanking anymore because of the casual guild I am in. We have a pretty descent tank, and are really lacking in the dps area, so that is my job now.

Since this new LFG has come out I have seen it all. To be honest, I get less than excited when a 50K health tank is in my group, and I am on one of my caster toons. I have ran every instance so many times, I can do it in my sleep, so I know the fights. The problem with "over geared tanks" from my experience, is that they get a god complex. They think they can take on the entire instance.

Now, with that said, if you have alot of melee DPS, and good healer, you can move through a bit faster. If you have a caster heavy group, the tank should pay attention to this, and slow it down just a little. Most casters have good AOE spells, so go ahead and get that huge group, but get them stationary, so the casters can burn them down.

The reason I say this, is because 95% of the time, the tanks don't pay attention to this, and then the "dude, your dps sucks" type comments start to fly.

Anyway, I have the utmost respect for all you tanks out there. There are so few of you. Just please pay attention to your group make-up and pull accordingly is all I ask.

username17
01-05-2010, 10:52 AM
@OP, Enjoyable read.

I just came back to the game, 30k unbuffed prot war.
It used to be decent but I found out quick that it's crap.

I love the LFD Tool.
Within 5 seconds of entering queue I have a group waiting on me.
I can do instance after instance after instance. And if I get a good healer I can just chain pull with no thought.

There's only one thing I don't like about it, there's no reputation (RL, not in game) for being a good tank.
During BC I was in a guild but rarely did heroics with the guild.
I pugged a lot, I was able to gain a reputation as a good tank who wasn't afraid of pugs. I ended up on a lot of peoples friends list.
I still had some wait time between heroics, but I'd get a tell from a healer friend and off we go.

Now with the LFG tool I may be seen as a good tank, but it's most likely from a person on a different server that I'll probably never see again.
Maybe they would make LFD pull from your friends list just like it works for your ignore list.

I guess I just miss the good old days, not a huge fan of WoTLK but I do like LFD.

Varagar
01-05-2010, 10:52 AM
I wanted to hang myself a few days ago when I got the infamous 3 shaman DPS team from the same guild on some server in my battlegroup. While doing a simple H OK run, they managed to purposfully annoy the piss out of me by intentionally Typhooning every single pull. All of them. And they would never attack skull, they would each choose their own target and chain lightning as hard as they could. If I didn't want the frosts, I'd have vote kicked myself.

Eisen
01-05-2010, 11:44 AM
I wanted to hang myself a few days ago when I got the infamous 3 shaman DPS team from the same guild on some server in my battlegroup. While doing a simple H OK run, they managed to purposfully annoy the piss out of me by intentionally Typhooning every single pull. All of them. And they would never attack skull, they would each choose their own target and chain lightning as hard as they could. If I didn't want the frosts, I'd have vote kicked myself.

I have a rule on Thunderstorm/Typhoon.

1st time, I ask (without naming names) that no more knockbacks be used.
2nd time, I point out the person resonsible and ask that they immediately stop or they're going to need another tank.
3rd time I drop party.

hynch
01-05-2010, 11:52 AM
The traditional way to wipe in the SM was to let runners get away and eventually become overwhelmed as more and more adds came (pretty much anything in there, except Myrmidons, who enrage, starts running at low health).

I'm not sure how it is these days.

The other traditional way to wipe was to get killed by Herod. On his original version, where one swing of Blades of Light could take out half your health bar, not the nerfed version we got soon after. Obviously, this is no longer a significant risk.

I suspect you can still get the entire Cathedral if you pull Mograine without clearing everything first.

I'm leveling a prot warrior with a friend who is a resto druid. For fun we decided to drop intimidating shout once inside the cathedral and see how much we can handle. Well the boss aggroed and with him the rest of the cathedral did as well. I had to blow shield wall, but we managed to survive. It was a lot of fun. I think I had about 500 DPS on that encounter haha. I've seen lvl 80s with less than that. :(

vorbis
01-07-2010, 09:45 AM
Don't post much (lurking makes me feel less guilty than posting from work), but I had to share:

Was doing a H-FoS the other day on my prot warrior (via the LFD queue). I am well geared and have been tanking since vanilla, so I tend to move fast. I had noticed however, that the priest was a little on the undergeared side, so I was a little more cautious than I'd otherwise be. After a few pulls with me pulling with him at about 60-70% mana, he says "mana", "mana", "mana" in group. Ok, fine.

I am even more careful about watching his mana. The ranged DPS were merrily gibbing themselves on the spell reflect shields on the skeletons. They died a few times. Then the healer says "I can't keep people up with you moving this fast." I explain about the spell reflect (again). He just responds with "Please watch my mana." Ok, stay calm.

We clear to Bronjahm. I leave the pack just to the left of his door alone, since we had decided not to clear extra trash at the beginning of the instance. I wait for the priest to get to full mana. Everyone is just standing around. So I run up and start the encounter. He proceeds to run over and aggro the pack on the left. I notice and run back, managing to pick up two of them, but the far caster gibs him before I get there. One of the DPS drops form and heals, but we don't quite make it (though we got close).

Fine, just a mistake, I'll let it go. So I zone back in and he immediately says "If you weren't rushing so much, you would have been there to tank those". I try to calmly explain that we had previously discussed that we weren't pulling extra trash, that he was full mana, and everyone seemed ready. Response: "The trash being pulled was a fluck<sp>, your rushing wiped us." At this point, I told him to go fluck himself and left the group :)

In general, my experiences haven't been too bad. I've geared up 3 roles worth of gear on several characters with only a couple of bad incidents. But that one just boiled my weasel.

patricdj
01-07-2010, 10:33 AM
I love the LFD system. I have to admit that when it first began, I did really well tanking - was able to hold agro, etc.
But the one thing I have had a difficult time with is the rate of gear/stat/dam acquisition dps'ers are experiencing now. They are capable of doing outrageous amounts of burst and sustained damage, and I am having to desperately fight to hold agro in many cases. Though I have never been voted out, I have been occasionally harassed. You might say that I am a noob tank…you’d be right! I switched from a glass cannon to this role because it seemed dps’ers came a dime-a-dozen and I could never get any run outside of guild raids.
My general rule is to check gear on fellow players and caution them if needed from the onset: “Hey your gear is quite a bit stronger than mine. I do not want to cause any wipes, and I know that you probably have been waiting in queue for some time now. Please watch your agro, or let me know now: I’ll drop group and you guys can find/wait for the ‘perfect’ tank.” Usually, this works for me – most people are very friendly and understanding: This is a game after all.
Last night I ran with a mage who is ranked 5th on her server gear wise. She really pushed me; however, she knew her class well (and how to handle being very strong), and knew how to drop agro when it became hard for me. In my opinion, we ALL need to learn our classes better. Working together, we can benefit immensely from the system and all come out ahead badge/gear wise. Blizzard set up a fabulous way for mains and alts as well to gear for end-game content. The system is incredibly more user accessible than the BC manner of gearing.
.....off my soap-box now.

Chamenas
01-07-2010, 10:52 AM
Indeed, no one is perfect. I think I'm a fairly good tank, but I've had my bad runs, etc... I simply made this thread because I think Tanks have some freaky and humorous stories. We often get the most abuse and it's interesting to see what big-headed DPS have to say about our job sometimes :)

Arodon
01-07-2010, 12:07 PM
For some reason, even when fail dps pull, I still feel it is my job/fault, so I will taunt off them and apologize. I am well geared and I can play my class, I guess I just have more tolerance for stuff like that. If it got aggravating, I probably wouldn't be against letting them die.

Arterius
01-07-2010, 11:36 PM
Everytime I do PoS in a pug, I always always always have DPS-ers DPS-ing the last boss while they have the Overlord's Brand, not knowing that they're doing damage to me.

I can live with low DPS if you know fight mechanics and aren't a complete 'tard, but idiots who pull this type of crap make me want to gun myself.

Mačl
01-08-2010, 01:54 AM
Yesterday I had two really annoying runs.


Enter Nexus
This is where it becomes real fun.
I had a paladin healer. He just wanted to rush thru stuff. I was just respeccing to tank, sorting my gear, choosing my vigilance target while he was already pulling the first dragon. I told him not to pull.
So I charged the next group(caste + 2 puppies) and didn't watch my rage so I had 0 rage when they were dead. Charge on cooldown and no way to gain rage since I had to blow that when he prematurely pulled that first dragonkin. Instead of waiting 4 *$*& seconds he pulled the next mob group. Everything up to the first boss. Let's just say that was some frantic tanking. And before everything was down he pulls the boss. And of course someone gets feared so we had to kill the whole room.
Needless to say I was steaming and while I was typing something in the line of: "I pull! I need the aggro!" he already pulled the next pat. I had blown just about every cooldown and I was about to blow a fuse. So I simply watched and finished typing. I told him I would drop group if he keeps this BS up. The answer was "Well then, just leave". I tried to votekick him but for some reason I couldn't. Since ther was not a word from the rest of the group I decided to stay. They had 15 minutes wait time and were decent players so I decided to buckle up and get it over with.
I chain pulled the next groups up to the boss and pulled the boss seconds before the last body hit the floor just to show that I can do this at breakneck speed. While I was greeding the boss loot the healer was already pulling the next group and this was when I decided just to taunt stuff off the DPS and gave up on tanking. I just followed hoping that he would die.
I just stayed because of the rest of the group who just suffered thru this. Nobody died. The run was fast. I hated every second of it. Two f*$%*! frost bdages more.

I still need the trinket and the dps boots from the new instances for my fury set so I make it a point to run them at least once a day. Let's just say when I entered the tool for that I was in a rather foul mood.


Enter H HoR:
I had a warlock who requested me to mark the nuke targets. Even after I gave the kill order. Priest => Hunter => Mage. The Mage I can hold against the healer just fine due to taunt and spell reflect. Priest and Hunter are supposed to die very fast so I only watch if they have aggoed the healer. Otherwise I completely ignore them. My friend Mr. Warlock managed to burn down the melee mobs first. Those were only slightly tanked so I had to taunt one of them back. We had a decent DK with us wh conveniently pulled the Hunter mob to me otherwise I would have dropped that group. There is only that much arguing and bickering I can take. One thing is for sure: when I have 3 melee mobs sticking to me I make damn sure I won't turn my back to them. If the whole mob group dies at the same time due to no focus fire then there is something seriously wrong on the DPS side.
When I told them not to be nervous when they have aggro from the witch doctors said warlock said that "It's alright. They have been doing my tanking for me before." As I said. He didn't follow my kill order. It was just the warlock but he took the fun out of the run. At least the DK got the sword hilt.

There are people who simply can't function within a team. It shows in 5mans. Either they can't tone down or watch their surroundings or switch target or make their own decisions. The current raids don't need them to do that and when they have to function as a unit they need somebody to tell them what to do.

Still. 2 foul runs of 4 that evening. That's the worst I had since the new LFG tool was introduced.
But once I got everything I need out of the new instances I will only go there with friends.

In H PoS I make it a point to post friendly fire from Recount during and after the fight. I had one clown who got 100k and another who got 60k.

Still those stories I told were by far my worst experiences. The other nuisances had been the odd shaman kicking stuff about. The AoE DPS generally help vote kicking those clowns. DKs deathgripping mobs out of my reach. Sometimes they genuinley want to help and have poor timing(like when I charge + shield bash mages in HoR), sometimes they just want their private mobs. But that's nothing major.

skisa
01-08-2010, 02:59 AM
I got my Pug the other day - he's so cute <3

Most of the groups I've been in so far have been fine, just say hi at the start and then zerg through. Mainly ICC heroics that are a pain, mostly cause I've only been there a few times.

So was in the second one the other day, with a pug but the healer happened to be from my server. We start with the trash, and the dk dps keep using grab (not the first dk to do that.. why they keep using taunt when dpsing pff, then they call me nub tank for not taunting it off). I have this silly little policy of warning once, then just not bothering unless the creature goes for the poor healer. So I warn once (you taunt it you keep it) then the healer warns after the next pull (stop taunting)... then the two of us come up with a plot! We decide to just let him die every time he taunts. I taunt the critters when he is dead.

Took a few times but he learned :P

Mačl
01-08-2010, 03:31 AM
Tried that but even when I teamed up with a healer buddy he couldn't bring himself to let somebody die.

I say, up tank/healer DPS and scrap this pure DPS class thingie. It didn't pan out and it's time to call it quits. I've finished so many bosskills with just me and the healer still standing it's not funny anymore.

Blue
01-08-2010, 04:04 AM
Ok, here's my story...

I have been running my warrior through these randoms, as Arms spec, and slowly getting more pve gear, in the process. It's actually quite fun, as I've been finding it harder and harder to not pull aggro off tanks--something I'm keenly aware of, and don't like to do.

Occasionally, I will get asked if I have my tank set with me, especially if I'm a bit higher, on the gearscore. Up until yesterday, I always, and without fail, said, "No, I don't pug, on my tank".

Well, the exception came in HToc, where I ran into a DK, who was not even close to having def, and on top of that, was being mercilessly ripped by a Mage, who was telling this guy he shouldn't even be in a Heroic, much less Toc. I was reaching for the "leave group" button, when the DK asked me if I had my tank gear. I decided that I'd have a little fun with this Mage, because I remember going through this same scenario, the very first time I tried tanking a pug, two years ago...I was so shook up, I pulled a boss, while a guy was still running back from graveyard!

So, I says, "Sure, I've got my gear, I always carry it. I must tell you guys, though, that I'm extremely rusty, as I haven't tanked anything in several months."

They all said they were cool with that...even the Mage, who wanted me to "Hurry up, already".

Ok, so, off we go. I really was rusty, and I had a bit of trouble with the first set of three, but I managed to charge around and silence/stun them enough that no one died.

Next, we get "Sir Laughalot", who, for some reason is almost as easy in Heroic, as in normal. Ok, so I'm feeling the old zing, and noticing that none of these guys, except one, that Mage, are doing more dps than me. I'm thinking, Black Knight is going to be a problem, but maybe the healer will have some smarts...

Well, we get to phase two, and it's chaos...someone opens up with full aoe (guess who), before BK even fully materializes, and I spend all my energy on him, just keeping him locked and kiting away from the zombies. The healer dies, standing in the middle of them, but we manage to get to phase three, and the healer really tries to get back in time. Not quite in time, though, as I see him casting a heal, just as I die--with no trinks, cools, nothing left.

As we regroup, the Mage starts up..."WTF, how did we all die, tank?"

I tell him we died, from lack of healer, and because of BKs AOE, not to mention someone aoe-ing the ghoulie/zombies. I tell them we need dps to burn him faster, on the third phase--all of which is somewhat true, but I know that this a-hole will take it to mean go all out right away. I tell the healer to stand behind me, and only behind me, and keep us both up. I know he's listening, because he's just died, and probably does not want to, again.

So, this time we go at it, and, sure enough the Mage finally breaks 2k dps, but dies because he doesn't move his royal ass, or even bubble.

And, you know, the only one of that group that thanked me for stepping up, to tank, was the healer!

I still won't tank a pug, but I'll be waiting for that exception to come round, again...might even get a 245lvl piece, for the tank set...

Chamenas
01-08-2010, 06:42 AM
Sad :(

Had a Ret Paladin using Righteous Fury in Heroic Forge of Souls last night. I found it odd that he would get threat on every AoE pull, put chalked it up to him picking different targets than me (he never picked the same target as me). The Warrior was somewhat of an issue as in every AoE pull he would always choose a different target. After saying that if you don't attack the same thing as me, you get to tank it, he comes back with a response about 5 minutes later "I don't know about you, but I attack the adepts first, they heal." Awesome. I'd know they heal if it weren't for the fact that every group in there just wants to AoE on every pull of more than one mob, I've never had issues with seeing any heal either so obviously it's not that big of a deal. My response, "I've always ended up AoE pulling, no one really seems to care about specific targets. I pick something and kill it." He goes and continues to get aggro.

I noticed the Paladin on the first boss because I had to fight, and I mean FIGHT to keep aggro on the guy and the Paladin's DPS was NOT that good. I don't generally have threat issues, I pull some really nice threat, so I knew something was up, and, lo and behold, he had Righteous Fury up. Happy ending: I point it out, he laughs and says he was helping some friends and forgot, turns it off. He never even gets close in threat again.

Sad ending: We get to the last boss and work out an interrupt rotation, but I screw up right off the bat. In order to keep threat from the Warrior I used up a Frost Strike which brought my Runic Power to 0, not enough for a Mind Freeze. It's funny because with my talents I don't really find myself too RP starved in Frost anymore, except in those clutch situations where it matters most. :(

Roana
01-08-2010, 07:23 AM
Mačl,

I had the same type of Nexus run, only with a druid healer instead of a paladin. After the first boss, I gave up, apologized to the rest of the group, and left.

Putting up with such behavior feels to me like the MMO version of battered wife syndrome, so I won't tolerate it. I'll ask nicely, but if their ego is too important to them (this sort of chain pulling goes beyond efficiency, it's a display of personal power, imposing your will and wants on other people), well, I have other characters to play or professions to pursue while the debuff is counting down.

Foolish
01-08-2010, 07:37 AM
I find it humorous when I'm taking a heroic on my warrior and the healer is happily following me with nearly full mana and the caster dps (or worse a hunter) are screaming "slow down I need mana".

Mačl
01-08-2010, 07:46 AM
Mačl,

I had the same type of Nexus run, only with a druid healer instead of a paladin. After the first boss, I gave up, apologized to the rest of the group, and left.

Putting up with such behavior feels to me like the MMO version of battered wife syndrome, so I won't tolerate it. I'll ask nicely, but if their ego is too important to them (this sort of chain pulling goes beyond efficiency, it's a display of personal power, imposing your will and wants on other people), well, I have other characters to play or professions to pursue while the debuff is counting down.

Yup, never will do that again.

Trouble is, I only had half an hour left to get my two frost badges for that day. My schedule sucks.
I once left a group I had early in the morning. I told them to go easy on my since I have a hangover. The healer resonded "nobody is interested in that". I left without a word. The attitude of some people sucks and I won't be used as heal or tank slave.

Andronikus
01-08-2010, 08:18 AM
We are tanks. They cannot operate without us. We all need to stand up for ourselves a bit more and stop taking all this crap from DPS players :)

I have 2 tanks... a warrior and a DK. The warrior is my main and in all fairness has never had a bad run from the LFG tool. Even the POS run that took 45 mins with NO WIPES was ok. Yeah i was top of the recount by a good 10 - 15% but the group done what was asked and did not do anything stupid :)

My DK... well thats another matter... When i was def capped but VERY low on health, by todays standards, i found most groups were pretty good about it and i had few problems. I worked hard, with the aid of my GF's resto druid alt also gearing up, and now have a decent 35kub health pool. The problem is i am now finding more and more jerks in the LFG tool.

Just the other night we were both tired but she needed 2 more badges for the 245 helm... i said ok 1 more :) we got into HUP. We both thought thats cool we might also get the mount. All we got from the DPS was 'go go go' or 'why are you going slowly?' now i was not chain chain pulling like i do on my warrior but we were in no way slow... Then the tott and MD pulling started... 3 times i asked them to stop. They were even pulling trash after the first boss b4 we had even started the encounter.

They were doing a whopping 2.5k DPs each... they were so 133t. After repeatably asking them to stop pulling for me i went afk, yes i did it just to piss them off, to have a quick bio... did they stop pulling? did they f*@#. When i got back i was apparently a fail tank, even though i told them i was afk for 1 min... we stuck with it as we were just at the second boss... killed him and as THEY went to pull Skadi we both left the dungon.

DPS... please.... let the tank TANK. If you REALLY want to tank then don't bother waiting your 15 mins for a tank :P

Yes i may be a rage filled tank... but ffs... DPS wonder why they are waiting for so long... i only have a few more badges needed on my DK then thats another tank on 1 a day :)

Also i know not all DPS players are like this... but not once... not even on my warrior have i been told 'good tanking' it's always 'nice group' even from the 45 min POS group....


in before 'bitter much?'

;)

Sennex
01-08-2010, 08:26 AM
Is it just my luck or does Heroic Halls of Reflection ALWAYS go bad?

I have yet to PUG it and have it go well, Nothing definite I can point to other than it just flat sucks! (My guild runs are perfect though)

winterbourne
01-08-2010, 08:38 AM
I really don't mind the daily random, and I do it each day and get a large selection of random folk in there.

I always tell the group that I like to chain pull fast, get us in and out quick, and so long as the dps is high, I will keep moving fast until the healer says something.

I also ignore any mob that drops below 20% or so health. Its got a dps blazing on it, and will be dead, regardless of the aggro switch, if any.

For bosses, I also announce "PULLING IN 3" and pop SS. Then 2.5 seconds later, I go in. After the first boss, they know its coming.

Repeat dps offenders will not be taunted off. I don't initiative conversation, but one of my standard replies is "Leave whenever you want". Having to re-queue for another dps takes about a microsecond, and it sets the tone for the others still with you.

That being said, I ran the ICC heroics on my hunter and as a ret pally (offspec) 2-3 times each before I started tanking them, because with my tactics and no tolerance attitudes, I better damn well know the fights from start to finish.

It also makes it SO much more fun to bring one guildie (I have a pet healer) so we can goof on them in Vent and /guild and otherwise turn any spectacular stupidity in amusing play-by-plays for the guild.

And now there is no problem getting 4 bodies to run Occulus! I love Occ!

Bearrorist
01-08-2010, 10:07 AM
Every run I have, I skip some packs if I can and some idiot ALWAYS pulls. The same guy struggling below me in DPS.

Chamenas
01-08-2010, 11:53 AM
Is it just my luck or does Heroic Halls of Reflection ALWAYS go bad?

I have yet to PUG it and have it go well, Nothing definite I can point to other than it just flat sucks! (My guild runs are perfect though)

My first dungeon before Forge of Souls yesterday was Halls of Reflection. I groaned. But I went in there, they had already down the first boss, then wiped and apparently the tank left.

3 wipes and 15 minutes later our best attempt was the first one. It got progressively worse after, the DPS didn't like the "LoS" way I wanted to do it and wanted to do it in the Hallway, making my job harder. Fine. We still wiped. The healer simply was not good enough, on every wipe he didn't have enough healing done to cover me, let alone the rest of the group. So, after that third wipe, one of the original party's dps left. My cooldown was up. I told the group straight-up that I didn't think we could do it and I was going to leave and re-queue and I suggested they do the same.

Halls of Reflection itself it manageable, it's the new bitch instance, but it's not impossible. But PUGs are a mixed bag, and you really need a good PUG to get through it in my experience.

nethervoid
01-08-2010, 02:10 PM
Hmm. Stories.

I was doing an H HoL a few weeks back with a guildie healer. We pick up 3 pug DPS, and I start chain pulling. How I do this is we kill all but a mob or two, and I'm off to the next group. The 2 left overs usually have me at 5-8x the threat of anybody else on the meter. My pocket healer loves when I chain pull, because then she has to use chain heal more than once during a fight. lol

So anyway right as I'm pulling the 2nd boss, one of the pug DPS says 'Slow down dude. It's not a race.' It is if you're in T9-10 gear. I politely said 'All aboard the nethervoid pain train! Get in. Sit down. Shut up. Hold on! I'll get us there in a jif!' LOL Was fun, and nobody said much after that.

Most heroics are pretty much a joke anymore, so I chain pull to get them over with faster. I do 1 a day for frost badges, then I'm done.

My biggest pet peeve in any pug 5 mans is the notorious DPS who is always AFK. Always behind. Watching TV. Can't kick the guy due to the timer. ARG! The instance would be quicker if you would just get your head out! Wish tanks could /follow and AFK their way through instances. That's what I do when I spec DPS to do the daily cause I'm just not in the mood for tanking. lol

That's probably why most people don't really care for tanking. There's no mental AFKness to it at all.

orgg
01-08-2010, 02:17 PM
i only hate dps that does very little damage.

if my grp has one dps over 3k, then i am happy.
if my grp has 3 dps less than 2k dps, then i will probably just leave the team.

i hate very much when a player that does not have gem and enchant.
i understand that piece will be upgrade, but a dps should spend some money to buy the cheap gem and enchant.

zortax4484
01-08-2010, 05:59 PM
I've yet to have a group where I've been blamed for any massive mistakes or wipes, but like many others, I have hardly ever seen those words "Nice tanking" as well.

I've been complimented on my tanking once that stands out in my mind, and that was when I got HoR as the daily random. I groaned as the screen loaded, and was tempted to just bail and spin the wheel again, but decided to give it one shot. It was the single best PUG run I've been in. We wiped only once, and that was only because the healer DC'ed right at the beginning of wave 9. We almost got through it too. We rezzed, started again, and proceeded to smoke the place. This was the run where after the second boss, both myself and the healer were both complimented for our skills, with everyone saying that it was the best PUG they'd had in a long time.

As for humorous stories, I got into GD as a random one day, me with my decent, but not mind-blowingly amazing 38k unbuffed hp, and a druid healer decked out to the teeth as well. It got to the point where I noticed the healer was no longer in tree form, but still healing. I asked and he said it was too easy and was bored. We continued, and this turned into him starting to dps as well with Hurricane and the like. I still had all the HoT's and never dropped under 75% or something, and the run was just amusing. I suppose in a way, it was an indirect compliment to my tanking. At least, that's how I decided to take it.

Chamenas
01-08-2010, 06:39 PM
I had a druid healer do that in HoL once.

Libicocco
01-08-2010, 06:48 PM
HoT + Hurricane (and then mocking extra low DPS) is what makes healing random heroics fun on my resto druid. Obviously works a lot better when the tank knows what he's doing and has at least some gear.

Bladesong
01-08-2010, 09:26 PM
It's sad to see how many of you have to put up with attitude from strangers. My server has a different problem - everyone is so quiet that it's like running the instance with AI. It's a PvE server, so maybe that's the difference? I've been running with two over-geared tanks and a just hit 80 enh shaman. The only thing I've seen that bothers me is tanks that pull so fast that people don't even have time to loot. It's one thing to efficiently pull an instance, it's another to put your e-peen ahead of the people you're running with.

Maybe a happy story?

I'm taking my casual buddy (blues/pvp purps) and a guildie alt (232 badge gear) through a random. We end up in HoR with a fresh 80 priest and DK. The healer says "Apologies to all, but I don't have the gear to heal this". My pally is in level 245 gear and up, so I say "let's give it a few tries". We have one wipe while my friend, the DK and the priest get a look at how it's going to go. We have a second wipe when the priest gets one shot by a merc while looting :rolleyes: After some instruction about when to use deathgrip, disarm and shackle we proceed to clear the whole thing without further incident. My friend, the priest and the DK all complete the quest line and are really excited that someone took the time to lay out a strategy and make the effort.

Chamenas
01-09-2010, 08:46 AM
CC is amazing for HoR, which is supposed to be the point. But it is terribly difficult to coordinate PUGs to CC. All of them just want to AoE and don't seem to understand kill orders or CC targets or any of that :-/

yiNXs
01-10-2010, 12:03 AM
I shouldn't have read this thread! I read it yesterday and found it comforting to know that my battlegroup isn't worse then all the others. There are a lot of complainers and "omgwtflolz" types, but most groups seem to pull their own weight. That is, since I've read this, because now I seem to be jinxed. Or perhaps because I've started to pay more attention to the types that are running with me. Just a few examples (one day):

- During the tunnel gauntlet in PoS, a hunter that was dpssing the mobs I tried to take to the middle, disengaged (or got hit by snow) when he had aggro, making me have to run back and grab the mobs again, then blamed me at the end for going up too slow.

- A dps paladin that refused to change his retribution aura to a resistance aura, because he "NEEDED it because it gave him AP!" I couldn't even get him to read the talents correctly, but I mean, even if it was true... I blame dps meters.

- A fight with all dps standing in their personal fire patch the entire fight, in a clear, flat and open space (VH, dog fight). It was actually funny to see, 3 patches, all baking a dps.

- A group with two melee dps, who were both standing in front of the bosses, even after I asked them multiple times to move to the back, if only to boost their already lousy dps, not even because a boss breathed fire, or to prevent the extra parry hits I would get.

- Another tank (I was healing) that kept standing in the black patches on the maiden fight (and therefor the dps too). "I can't attack her if I move away" was his reasoning.

These things weren't a big problem, because it's just dungeons, but especially the unwillingness to listen to logic and even defending their terrible ways, or worthless ego is annoying.

A funny one too: I was on my enhancement shaman (still leveling). At the first bossfight I realized the healer was struggling to keeping up, so I decided to throw in some maelstrom procs for heals. I ended up doing this the entire run and when I checked recount I noticed I did about 40% of his healing. The funny thing was that they complemented the (druid) healer on his great healing, they hadn't even noticed the regular chainheals :-)

Anyway, I realize non of these are reasons why there are so few tanks (it's could be a reason for healers). My reason for getting bored with tanking in general is because I can't get a tanking job in new raid content. All the decent guilds have their regular tanks, and I'm not wasting my time with mediocre guilds anymore, with 30% players that are like the puggers described here, or worse, WITH puggers, and the best cases still don't even bother to try a hard mode just for the hell of it. So, no raid job, no more HC tanking. I'm not here just to boost dps through HC's. I'll probably go back to healing on my priest or perhaps shaman, that makes getting there a lot easier.

Roana
01-10-2010, 05:51 AM
- A dps paladin that refused to change his retribution aura to a resistance aura, because he "NEEDED it because it gave him AP!" I couldn't even get him to read the talents correctly, but I mean, even if it was true... I blame dps meters.

As I recall, it wasn't too long ago that the talent indeed only gave you the benefit from retribution aura. I was pleasantly surprised when I picked up my paladin again recently to see that it now benefits from all auras.


- Another tank (I was healing) that kept standing in the black patches on the maiden fight (and therefor the dps too). "I can't attack her if I move away" was his reasoning.

The tank was probably stupid, but if you aren't a warrior tank (or Berserker Rage is on cooldown), then it IS a good idea to move into a void zone before Shock of Sorrow is cast (not all the time, though). It prevents the rare but possible case that the healer is the only person to resist Shock of Sorrow (more likely with Draenei healers because of their extra chance to be missed by shadow spells), but not the tank, and so she'll wail on the healer, while the tank can't do anything. Again, the tank was probably unaware of this subtle problem and just being ignorant, but there ARE good reasons even for a skilled tank to purposely "stand in the fire" on occasion.

Jasra
01-10-2010, 12:48 PM
It's always fun when every time you ask a question about a boss or quest for an instance you're new to, someone drops the group. Maybe, just maybe it's true that waiting out the lfg timer and finding a group with a 50khp tank who does the dungeon in his or her sleep will be faster than putting up with the fact that I'm not going to be fast, but that kind of behavior isn't going to encourage more tanks to join the lfg queue, that's for certain!

Bovinity
01-10-2010, 02:40 PM
It's always fun when every time you ask a question about a boss or quest for an instance you're new to, someone drops the group.

I've been known to join heroics in my resto gear, pop into bear with like 30k hp, and ask, "Which instance is this?" just to see if any jerks drop. ;)

kingymech
01-10-2010, 03:27 PM
yeh it can be quite annoying, sometimes u can scale what a grp will be like and then tank from there, one instance i tanked gundrak, which makes me chuckle having an dual as dps it was me, druid healer and hunter, 2x arms warriors.

Now as i was charging in both warrios (im assuming as i used to till i went fury) popped their cds and began to bladestorm.

Was funny as i thoght, "no way am i gonn abe able to keep them both alive.

I saw healer switch targrts and heal like mad but one of them died and i got the "/fail tank" leave grp

Bonus,

so i just think now fuk em ill tank it if we wipe we wipe, at least ill get a replacement for a dps a lot faster than u will a tank:D

yiNXs
01-10-2010, 03:38 PM
As I recall, it wasn't too long ago that the talent indeed only gave you the benefit from retribution aura. I was pleasantly surprised when I picked up my paladin again recently to see that it now benefits from all auras.

I told him it changed, but without effect. That was just it, he didn't want to recheck his talents, but also had no interest in the idea of sacrificing a possible bit of dps for group survivability. The healer was clearly struggling on previous fights, it was ToC5, and I think it was his first time there. I can't stand those kind of people, all about their own dps, not getting the fact that it's a group effort.



Again, the tank was probably unaware of this subtle problem and just being ignorant, but there ARE good reasons even for a skilled tank to purposely "stand in the fire" on occasion.

The difference between tactical self-damage to break (incoming) CC, or even gain some rage is about taking just the damage necessary on the right moment. Standing in there the entire fight motionless doesn't even come close. The boss has a cast that is long enough for even ranged to run and grab a bit of void damage to break the repentance, no need to take it all.

I think this just proves that the fact that tanking isn't for everyone, is also one of the major reasons there are so few. I remain friendly, but I'm sure the next healer would burn him down.

Anomandaris
01-10-2010, 05:14 PM
HoR Hc is my current fave for highlighting piss poor DPS players. We had a pally hitting 5k dps, despite me saying kill order is priest > mage > rogue > hunter > warrior, he insisted on whacking on the melee (recount hungry I guess). On one of the pulls I grouped the melee mobs, used HC throw on the mage, and when it got close enough, charged and shield bashed it. As I ran back to the other mobs to group them all, the pally died coz he used HoJ on one of the spectral footmen as it tried to follow me, pulled it off me (I didnt realise of course, my thunderclap failed to get it back as he had carried on nuking it, and I was focusing on the mage) and it turned on him and killed him. 'Nice tanking twat' was his view. 'Why didnt you use Repentance on the mage? Why cant you follow the kill order? Why didnt you bubble when you got aggro? You noob' was my reply.

Worst one ever, was a wannabe mage tank, who changed my kill markings after I pulled, as 'I had got it all wrong'. I lasted 2 mins after that before I left the group, seething.

Arvandor
01-10-2010, 05:46 PM
Yeah, H-HoR is a good one for picking out bad players of any class.

I got it as my daily once tanking on my druid, and I HATE tanking H-HoR on my druid. It's fine on my Dk and warrior, but my druid? Ugh, such a pain. Fortunately we had a very competent party. The hunter used MD and the occasional freeze trap, the priest used shackle, and the dps focus fired my skull target, and didn't open up before I had everything on me.

Turned the place into a joke =D

kolben
01-10-2010, 09:53 PM
I don't know about other people, but there is only so much bad playing a man can take. I have plenty of people in my guild and friends list to run heroics with - people I can steamroll instances with for hours and actually have fun.

Blizzard could make 10 tanking classes, this will not be fixed until people learn how to not ruin a good thing whenever they get the chance.

!3M
01-10-2010, 10:36 PM
It's always fun when every time you ask a question about a boss or quest for an instance you're new to, someone drops the group.

I'd still group with you if you show me that you're trying. :P

Never really liked the mentality where you (get labeled) suck just because of gear or questions. In fact, I appreciate knowing things up front than wiping a few times just to find out someone has never done the instance before.

Mačl
01-11-2010, 03:55 AM
I really love HoR and if I'm there as a tank I will complete that ID no matter what.

I make it a point to do the new instances at least once a day for Sword Hilt goodness. I have al versions of Quel'serrar and ofc I also want Quel'delar. Not sure which one, tho.

But I also need the DPS trinket from FoS and the plate DPS boots from HoR. I get a shot at those once a day and these are my primary reason to pug these instances. Farming hilts is easier by grabbing a guildie tank and two man PoS trash with my priest. Anyway, every time I announce that these two DPS pieces are the sole reason I go there does cause quite a bit of an argument. How it is not OK for tanks to roll on DPS stuff. Even me pointing out that without my need for these pieces there wouldn't be a run since I wouldn't have grouped for those instances quietens them down.
I have no problems if somebody drops group after my announcement of need. They also have just one shot at those instances a day. It's their call and that's why I make my announcement.
In fact apart from that I only LFG when I help somebody, my two frost badges, if I'm bored or I got new loot and need target dummies.

I also do the new instances once a day on my priest due to low chance of hilt.
Yesterday the tank announced that he'd roll on the trinket in FoS.

I loled.
Poor DPS :D

Some take it in good grace like in a very good group I had in HoR. When I announced I'd need the DPS boots both the retardin and the dk agreed that the best roll should win. They also needed the upgrade. I think I would have passed for both of them. They assisted my tanking during the waves brilliantly.

Kahmal
01-11-2010, 04:17 AM
Tanking HoR is a blast as a warrior, since the mobs cant just be AOE'd it brings me back to the old BC days, only with Warbringer.

Tanking all the melee mobs, reflect tanking the casters, charging the hunter smacking it once, just to zip back to the rest of the mobs. Awesome :-)

I pugged it np pre-nerf, but after running it a lot I learned that doing it with shit DPS can lead to failure, so I prefer to bring a guildy with me that can eithe DPS or tank.

Mačl
01-11-2010, 04:52 AM
Agreed. During the waves we get to use every skill in the book. I love that. When it comes to versatility then warriors still are the king of the hill. I'd kill for death grip, tho.

Chamenas
01-11-2010, 05:00 AM
I can't use deathgrip on two ranged mobs :-(

Daxwax
01-11-2010, 06:26 AM
charging the hunter smacking it once, just to zip back to the rest of the mobs. Awesome :-)
Use disarm, and he hunter will come with you back to where the action is :)



I can't use deathgrip on two ranged mobs :-(
You've got a silence though? Assuming you haven't got two huntermobs, which I haven't seen yet.

skisa
01-11-2010, 09:01 AM
How it is not OK for tanks to roll on DPS stuff. Even me pointing out that without my need for these pieces there wouldn't be a run since I wouldn't have grouped for those instances quietens them down.
I have no problems if somebody drops group after my announcement of need. They also have just one shot at those instances a day. It's their call and that's why I make my announcement.

hmm yes.. is a silly thing. Joined a Ulduar 10m the other day, they were looking for dps AND tank. I told them my main spec was dps but that I had the gear to tank if needed. Auto tank status for me, which is fine I guess - I like both - but when I *asked* if I could still roll on dps items the response was less than nice. The plate dps didnt even have it in them to say politely 'we mind, please don't'. No, mocking and 'lol I'll roll on something useless to me cause I wanna be an idiot' replies made me just quit the group. It's not that they minded.. it's the response.


I find it humorous when I'm taking a heroic on my warrior and the healer is happily following me with nearly full mana and the caster dps (or worse a hunter) are screaming "slow down I need mana".

hihi! I do that to my bf's dps shaman all the time. As long as healer has mana I go on, leaving him completely starved half the dungeon. muhaha!

Bovinity
01-11-2010, 09:16 AM
I got it as my daily once tanking on my druid, and I HATE tanking H-HoR on my druid.

Aw, why? Swipe, swipe, swipe, win. ;)

Of course the last HoR pug I ran was a failure because the healer and one of the DPS realized they were from the same server and started chatting about guilds mid-fight and the healer let himself die to DoT's then yelled at me. ><

Grannos
01-11-2010, 09:18 AM
Dusted off my pally last night and hit the dummies for a rotation check. This is not a storry yet, but i fear it will be soon. I have not pugged as a tank ever. I am DEF capped at 543 and might have 30K health with group buffs, and do 1.5K dps on the target dummie. It should go pretty good i would think.

I am ready for the complaining though, and I could care less to be honest. i am amost 38 years old, and some kid hot shot DPS yelling "go go go" , will only get him killed. LOL.

Wish me luck...HORROR story to come soon I am sure.

Maelstrom
01-11-2010, 09:24 AM
Go forth and rock it, Grannos o/

Grannos
01-11-2010, 09:25 AM
LOL...thanks dude. :)

Chamenas
01-11-2010, 10:51 AM
You've got a silence though? Assuming you haven't got two huntermobs, which I haven't seen yet.

Shouldn't be possible after the hotfix. However, it's on a 2 minute cooldown, and it's definitely possible to get a mage and a hunter from two groups in a row. :-/

Also, @ Grannos - You are more than fine for heroics and even Naxx. But it sounds like you have a thick skin, good, you will probably need it. Spoiled DPS are going to balk at your numbers. :(

Show them how its done :), it's not about the gear.

headknocker
01-11-2010, 11:05 AM
In a Culling of Strathholme run. As tank I'm doing 42% of total damage. We're still well within a timed run speed (clearing the alley) should get to extra boss with about 5min left. Druid with 4200 gear score, keeps switching from kitty to bear and running ahead of me. Posts 'go faster' and starts dps (in bear) while I'm gathering the entire rest of the hall, thus splitting up the mobs. Healer gets ganked. AoE them down, brez healer, take down extra boss. I asked, politely, what the hurry was, we had plenty of time left. I may have suggested that he try getting good at his own role before offering advice on others. He said 'I don't have a dps set, that's why i need to run all these heroics really fast to gear up'.

Sigh.

Chamenas
01-11-2010, 12:06 PM
It's your fault for not understanding his needs, headknocker. Clearly.

Hammerfists
01-11-2010, 03:51 PM
More pulling less talking headknocker go go go you lazy meatshield.

Funny thing is he is going as a tank which will yield him faster groups and his proper gear set up but instead going dps. Clearly his parents didnt have any children that lived.

Eisen
01-11-2010, 04:10 PM
I had someone in H-Cos last night do something similar. This hunter kept running ahead pulling things and MDing them on to me. During the gauntlet part he went to do that, then kinda forgot MD was on cooldown.

I snickered for a good five minutes after he was rezzed.

!3M
01-11-2010, 07:52 PM
During the gauntlet part he went to do that, then kinda forgot MD was on cooldown.

I snickered for a good five minutes after he was rezzed.

This made me smile.
I will be fair though, these last 3 days were pretty decent for me. Only gripe that I have left are the really silent groups. Kinda makes me feel like I'm playing with NPCs.

Bladesong
01-11-2010, 08:14 PM
Even though I have two geared tanks that can pretty much carry any party through a heroic and even though each tank runs a random every day and even though I never get complimented on my tanking (I tank heroics pretty well I think :p), it somehow still never occurred to me to specifically compliment a tank (or healer) on the job they did when I'm on my dps character.

I ran CoS this weekend after reading Tankspot while waiting (20 minutes!). At the end of a successful run and with this thread fresh in my mind I made sure to compliment the tank and healer, both of whom did great considering they were in blues. Both guys were really appreciative and hopefully I helped to counteract any "fail tank" or "fail heal" comments they've ever received from idiots. Anyhow, I think that more positive reinforcement from the community is probably the best way to ensure that we have more tanks and healers.

Eisen
01-11-2010, 08:56 PM
Even though I have two geared tanks that can pretty much carry any party through a heroic and even though each tank runs a random every day and even though I never get complimented on my tanking (I tank heroics pretty well I think :p), it somehow still never occurred to me to specifically compliment a tank (or healer) on the job they did when I'm on my dps character.

I ran CoS this weekend after reading Tankspot while waiting (20 minutes!). At the end of a successful run and with this thread fresh in my mind I made sure to compliment the tank and healer, both of whom did great considering they were in blues. Both guys were really appreciative and hopefully I helped to counteract any "fail tank" or "fail heal" comments they've ever received from idiots. Anyhow, I think that more positive reinforcement from the community is probably the best way to ensure that we have more tanks and healers.

This is true. NOTHING makes my day brighter playing wow than "nice tanking!"

Had a group I picked up in H-POS. They were at the first boss waiting when I came in...those that weren't still corpserunning. Made me really worried you know? Sometimes the other tank left for a good reason. They told me it was because he sucked, and as a tank I took this with a grain of salt. People always say the tank sucked, even when it was just them being morons. So we do Forgemaster and 1-shot it. Do Ick and 1-shot it..roflstomped EVERYTHING...only had one death, and that was the rogue eating hellfire on the hill instead of interrupting it. His bad, I was locking down the other one Flameguy at that precise moment. Every couple moments they were going "Oh god this is so much easier with a REAL tank!" I didn't say anything, but just hearing that had me puffed up and happy all day.

And I try to do the same. Any healer that does a fantastic job hears it from me first. And I try to do the same with DPS; esp if they remember they have skills other than the pewpew ones and use them well.

Vindicatar
01-11-2010, 09:38 PM
OMG i have another story :D

So I'm tanking the random H with my GF healing. We get FoS. After the first few pulls I realise that dps is pretty poor; 2 below 2k and the retadin doing 3k tops. They are all in 232 gear, and should be doing more. I ask them to try and step it up a bit, as they should be doing more for their gear lvl.

Anyways, we get to the first boss and it took extremely long to kill it. The boss healing once didnt help due to dps just standing there. So I tell them they need to kill the soul fragment faster, and move away if they boss is targeting them when he is casting that spell.

The rogue than runs the wrong way, and aggros the pack to the left. He vanishes, and gets my GF (healer) killed. He them proceeds to blame ME for her death because i was too busy calling every shit and I wasnt paying attention...

So whatever, I rez her, we keep clearing. We kill the ghosts leading to the second boss, and I get a tell from a guildie, so I replied. The sub-par dps starting asking me why I stopped, and one makes a comment about me getting mana back while standing up ~_~ I tell them why I stop for 15 secs, and this dps decides that he needs to call me an elitest jerk for wasting HIS and everyone elses time, and that he hopes I get hit by a bus.

Needless to say, I dropped group. So did my GF (as pissed off as she was that I left right before the last boss. She hates doing Hs)

Why do people think they can be total assholes just because they will most likely never see the same players again in a pug? I don't need to tolerate crap from people who are under-performing, and i hope no-one else reading this thread does either. Tanks are the only role u NEED for a Heroic, u could easily do them with a hybrid healer. Show some respect to fellow WoW players, and maybe you might just get a few more tanks out there, and DPS will have lower wait times for queues.

Vin

!3M
01-12-2010, 12:03 AM
Time for me to contribute to a story...

I pugged the other day with my IRL bud (I was tanking, and he was on his ret pally). We joined the random, got into H OK and I did my usual "Hi All" to get into the friendly mood. All was well, so I started. Right after the 1st group the healer starts asking me if I knew how to tank, if I was def capped. All this when no one else was getting aggro, I was with 38k buffed hp and being 3rd on the dps meters (200dps shy from the second, with my ret pally friend leading the top).

I gritted my teeth, stayed because my bud told me to chill but needless to say I ignored the healer right after we cleared it.

I guess I'll create a macro which says "If you're trying hard to be an ass, the least you could do is spec some brains and try not to sound like a retarded ass..." :P

That's my story... :P

delta38
01-12-2010, 12:33 AM
What happened to me this week:

TotC:
Those 3 groups of mobs prior to Eadric the Pure.
I Charge the first 3, Thunderclap, Shockwave - standard procedure.
Instead of focussing the healer, DPS goes wild (everyone on another target) - somewhat used to that, i change target, cleave, taunt, do my best and keep aggro on all. Outcome: I get mindcontrolled by the priest, DPS gets aggro, dies.

Chat goes like that:
dead DPS: "Hey Tank, watch your mobs!"
me: "I was mind controlled - you could have interrupted that"
dead DPS: "I've never had a tank losing aggro on those mobs and I didn't even go all the way with damage! You must suck at tanking. Noob!" - "You suck!"
...

But the best part about it:
I was 2nd in dmg, far ahead of the dead DPS. I regret not taking a screenshot of that.


On the other hand there are DPS, who appreciate what their tank does. Like being no.1 in dmg through all of heroic HoL and doing the last ~100k damage on Loken alone :o

Chamenas
01-12-2010, 06:16 AM
I almost soloed the last half of Loken once when the healer made a mistake and wiped the party. I got to about 20k and hit the wrong cooldown at the wrong time and had no way to regen the amount of life I needed. Oh wells. Oh the fun of Blood Spec (Frost is still better!).

I have to say though, in all of my tanking, I've maybe heard a compliment or twice, though I certainly can't remember and I don't suck. I'm keenly aware of when I do bad, I admit it, and it doesn't happen often. I too have to compliment tanks more on my DPS and my upcoming healer. I know that on my tank, who doesn't really need heroics, more positive attitudes would incline me to do an extra heroic or two. I have fun with good groups, and there's money to be had if you're not wiping.

Story:
I do actually have an interesting tank story from the pov of a healer. It was regular Gundrak. My healer was 78 (79 now!) and the tank was 76. Tank had... 15k hp with Kings. Right. Before I dropped my Tank spec I had about that much at level 73. Still, I don't say anything, inspect gear quickly, lots of DPS stuff mixed with tank stuff. Still, I don't say anything, gear is always interesting before 80.

First pull the Tank drops to low almost immediately. I spam my heals to keep the tank up and only barely do so. After filling up on mana the tank pulls again. Almost the same story, though this time the tank never truly dropped low. We do the boss, I manage to keep the tank up though it's certainly tougher than normal. After the boss I notice my latency has crept up to 700 ms. I make note of it, we do the next pull. This time the tank dies. I had done my best, healing all the way, but I realized I had lots of lag and looked at my latency, 2000ms (thank you Hartwick College, I love you too).

I tell the group that I'm sorry but my latency has gone to shit, everyone is all fine with it. I tell them if they want I'll leave and they can get someone else. No one says anything. Next pull, I do my best, but the lag is clearly evident. Tank drops. Still no wipe, no one else dies, but there's too much lag to keep a tank with barely any hp up. I try to loot but the lag makes it take much longer, the tank runs off and aggros another group. I try running back and using LoH, but this is the second room with the hills and the tank was out of LoS. I run up the hill a little, tank drops. I tell the group that that time it was because the tank ran ahead before I was ready, but remind them that my latency is bad. Everyone's cool with it. We pull the next group. I try my hardest to keep the tank up despite my latency but I can't do it, the damage is too heavy with the tank seeming to not be able to mitigate or avoid any of it and with an incredibly low hp pool. Tank drops, a few others including myself die.

Despite telling them I would leave if they wanted me to (and I was about to anyways, because at that point I knew no one wanted to be in a group where the tank dropped on every pull, and even if I might have been able to keep the tank up with my best heals, I couldn't offer those in 2k ms latency), the tank drops group without a word. Then one of the dps drops. Needless to say, the group falls apart.

UNRELATED RANT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's lots of fail in there. My school fails for so heavily throttling any WoW connection, makes playing when I live on campus a nightmare. One second I will be fine with green latency and then BOOM I'll be upwards of 2k without warning for hours (if other people use the network it's not them slowing me down, the network sees the increased traffic and instantly shapes my packets in a throttled fashion). The excuse is that they want to keep the network for school purposes. What they neglect to realize is that A) Some of us have to live on campus, this is where we live when we're here. So this is where we study AND try to live and have fun. B) Internet browsing is the highest priority network usage here, and yet I'm willing to bet that more than half, probably more than 80% of it is in no way school-related. But because that's how those kids choose to use their connection, mine gets throttled and I get screwed (they're probably looking at porn, watching TV shows, etc...).

END UNRELATED RANT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The tank was clearly not geared properly, did not have enough hp and still I did my best to be kind and put up with it and take my part of the blame for their dying, even though they had a heavy part of blame too. Despite my offer, the tank clearly got upset and instead of letting me leave, abandons group. There's a lot of truth to Ghostcrawler's post, even if they aren't helping with limited attempts, the WoW community is way too sensitive to deaths, dying and wiping.

Grannos
01-12-2010, 07:09 AM
Ok...first tanking story from my first tanking experience. Now, this was not a pug run, but thought I would share anyway.

It as late last night, and there were only 4 of us on. I really wanted to try tanking, but was not ready to pug one. We decided to 4 man reg ToC. The healer was a tree who had just started healing, but had good gear, myself as a pally tank with mostly blue gear and some greens and few epics, a pretty well geared fury warrior, and a new undergeard blood DK still in his leveling spec.

I did not have high hopes, but I wanted to try anyway. We cleared in one run with no wipes. I never lost aggro, which i was worried about with that geared fury warrior. I even did 2.5K dps. I guess that is ok dps for a new tank.

The only real issue we had was the second phase of the black knight. As much as i preach about getting out of the stuff on the ground, i was so flustered being my first tanking experience, guess what, i stood in the stuff on the ground. LOL.

Anyway, just wanted to share a positive tanking experience. I know its off base from the topic of this thread. Thank you for reading...K, out of breath now :)

Mačl
01-12-2010, 07:27 AM
I said it before.
People forgot how to wipe with dignity.
Alone the amount of wipes(I think about 40) we had while learning Onyxia/40 or the number of wipes between our first Anub'Rekan/40 and our second Anub'Rekan/40 kill(somewhere around 20-30) would have made most "modern" player think twice. A pug will fall apart after the third wipe on Lady Onyxia/25. If not even sooner.

No. No. No, no.

I need to find a way to replace Onys soundfiles with Margaret Thatcher quotes. Globally.

To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the U-turn, I have only one thing to say: You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning.

orcstar
01-12-2010, 07:31 AM
I had someone in H-Cos last night do something similar. This hunter kept running ahead pulling things and MDing them on to me. During the gauntlet part he went to do that, then kinda forgot MD was on cooldown.

I snickered for a good five minutes after he was rezzed.
There was a time when guildies did just that to me in raids, to test how far they could push me.
Well they pushed me far enough to have me make a macro:

"/cancelaura missdirect"

The joy that simple macro gave me :):):)

Reev
01-12-2010, 07:52 AM
Had the weirdest CoS run yesterday. I had to log on late due to a business dinner, so all my guildmates were in raid. I queued up for a quick PuG random, and got CoS. The mage and rogue in the group were just standing around through all the trash, often on the other side of the map, never touching a mob. I thought they were just clueless or sucked, but I really didn't care because I was still managing good time just from my own dps and the 1800 dps warlock that was with me.

Then I pull a boss and WHAM-O, the rogue is doing 7k dps and the mage is doing 7.5k dps. Then they go back to doing nothing for all the trash pulls. I never asked what was up, and they never told, and I still managed to get the timed run with 6 minutes to spare, but it was just bizarre. I managed to get "The Patient" title on that run too, which I thought was appropriate.

Bashal
01-12-2010, 07:55 AM
I never asked what was up, and they never told, and I still managed to get the timed run with 6 minutes to spare, but it was just bizarre.

"We're too good for trash." ;)

Dreadski
01-12-2010, 07:56 AM
Had the weirdest CoS run yesterday. I had to log on late due to a business dinner, so all my guildmates were in raid. I queued up for a quick PuG random, and got CoS. The mage and rogue in the group were just standing around through all the trash, often on the other side of the map, never touching a mob. I thought they were just clueless or sucked, but I really didn't care because I was still managing good time just from my own dps and the 1800 dps warlock that was with me.

Then I pull a boss and WHAM-O, the rogue is doing 7k dps and the mage is doing 7.5k dps. Then they go back to doing nothing for all the trash pulls. I never asked what was up, and they never told, and I still managed to get the timed run with 6 minutes to spare, but it was just bizarre. I managed to get "The Patient" title on that run too, which I thought was appropriate.

That's really bizarre. I wonder if they do that in raids, too, or if it's just some kind of elite smuggitude they both adopted. What was their gear like?

Reev
01-12-2010, 07:59 AM
That's really bizarre. I wonder if they do that in raids, too, or if it's just some kind of elite smuggitude they both adopted. What was their gear like?

Not that impressive. The rogue had a 251 axe, and mixed 232 emblem/5 man gear. The mage had the same without any 251s. It was impressive dps, given that, but then the boss fights in CoS aren't exactly long fights, making it easy to get big dps numbers.

Dreadski
01-12-2010, 08:06 AM
Not that impressive. The rogue had a 251 axe, and mixed 232 emblem/5 man gear. The mage had the same without any 251s. It was impressive dps, given that, but then the boss fights in CoS aren't exactly long fights, making it easy to get big dps numbers.

Commonly referred to as a ghetto snob (cred. Everybody Hates Chris):

Basically no impressive gear (heroic togc or putricide loot), DPS numbers that are easily attainable by that gear level on a single target, and an attitude or presence that they're poop doesn't have an odor.

Amirite? I mean, why not make it go by faster and just aoe the trash?

woodyman
01-12-2010, 08:13 AM
A positive not on Tankin stories
i Tanked Fos last night with all DPS under 2.5k an my own around 1500 (warrior)
not one aggro and all the dps knew the tactics
it was a breeze i couldnt believe it with such low dps....

guess it goes to show what a bit of brains can do

PatrikL
01-12-2010, 08:13 AM
Amirite? I mean, why not make it go by faster and just aoe the trash

Simple, small trash in there lowers their dps numbers since they die too quickly.

Darmaul
01-12-2010, 08:27 AM
So actually, the main reason I'm not tanking a lot Randoms is I don't need emblems of Triumph and I only get Frost emblems for the first one. So I usually just run one per day even though they often only take 15-20 minutes PURELY because there's essentially *no* reward for additional runs past the first one.

With that said, I enjoy running with pugs. I really like having the Gearscore addon 'cause it generally tells me if I can do really large pulls, vs. chain pulls vs. stop after each pull and let healer fill back up his 8k mana bar.

I also will often run my brother's low level alts through regular dungeons. Right now he's got a level 71 tank so we'll queue in together and he'll start in with the "Hey Darmaul, I've been tanking a pretty good bit so if you need any pointers let me know." Then I'll ask questions like
"So do you use Shield Slam?" and
"Do you think I should respec to get Shockwave? Right now I'm 31/0/40 'cause I don't like aoe tanking". or
"I'm debating gemming for Agility 'cause I like being agile, do you think that or spirit for the health per 5 regen?"

and then my favorite... Right before we do a 3 mob trash pull on mobs that have less health than I do I'll assign each of the dps a complicated nonsensical CC assignment like "mage sheep moon til Skull is dead and then keep X sheeped and moon frost nova'd. Hunter trap X til it's sheeped and then MD moon to me". Then I charge in, Shockwave, thunderclap on every cooldown and ask "Where's my CC?" :D

One time we were playing with a quite good hunter who actually managed to do his silly assignment and I had to actually charge out to break the trap so I could thunderclap and ask "Where's my CC? These guys are killing me!"


Usually though they figure out it's a joke when they look at my health bar.

Dreadski
01-12-2010, 08:33 AM
I love how people say there's no reward to triumph emblems after you've collected all the gear you want. 10-20 buys you an epic gem. Even if you're stocked up for all the upgrades you'll get in ICC, you can still sell the gems. Better yet if you aren't a JC, have a guildy cut it into a popular stat and sell it for even more.

Additionally, offer your 3 second queue on the server for money. Charge something like 30 gold per person, per run and do as many as you can. That's 120g per run if you run a full server group, plus the profit from the gems. Depending on how lucky you are with getting a 5+ badge instance or Occulus, that can equate from 180-320 gold per-heroic. If your heroics take 20 minutes, that's easily a hypothetical ~600+ gold per hour if you chain them. That's not too bad, is it?

Theotherone
01-12-2010, 08:42 AM
Had the weirdest CoS run yesterday. I had to log on late due to a business dinner, so all my guildmates were in raid. I queued up for a quick PuG random, and got CoS. The mage and rogue in the group were just standing around through all the trash, often on the other side of the map, never touching a mob. I thought they were just clueless or sucked, but I really didn't care because I was still managing good time just from my own dps and the 1800 dps warlock that was with me.

Then I pull a boss and WHAM-O, the rogue is doing 7k dps and the mage is doing 7.5k dps. Then they go back to doing nothing for all the trash pulls. I never asked what was up, and they never told, and I still managed to get the timed run with 6 minutes to spare, but it was just bizarre. I managed to get "The Patient" title on that run too, which I thought was appropriate.

Must be a new fad, enter the dungeon and let others do your work. I was in a H DTK (I get the worst PuG's in there) where 2 of the 3 dps weren't dps'ing the trash; got to second boss and they decided they didn't need to dps the adds on the stairs. I hung in there until I pulled Dred, then I left; really hope they enjoyed tanking him. Frankly, I'm not carrying lazying morons, so I do the work and they get their Frost emblems.

PatrikL
01-12-2010, 08:54 AM
Must be a new fad, enter the dungeon and let others do your work. I was in a H DTK (I get the worst PuG's in there) where 2 of the 3 dps weren't dps'ing the trash; got to second boss and they decided they didn't need to dps the adds on the stairs. I hung in there until I pulled Dred, then I left; really hope they enjoyed tanking him. Frankly, I'm not carrying lazying morons, so I do the work and they get their Frost emblems.

I have a worse story on that topic. Got Occulus as my daily frost about a week ago and just after getting our drakes one of the dps says "really sry but need to be afk for a few minutes". Alright I think, we'll just start with some of the trash meanwhile. Since he had put on auto follow on one of the others he was just following us around in there and got some heals if he ever got hit.

Guess when he came back? When we had killed Eregos (we didnt want to wait and someone clicked no on the vote to kick)!. Sure he didnt take any of the loot but still...

Kennris
01-12-2010, 08:57 AM
In regards to the "tanks never get a thank you" remarks- I do a lot of randoms because it's all I have access to. I'm guildless and fairly casual in my playtime these days, so if I'm on for an hour I'll bang out three or four randoms.

In all of the randoms I've done in the last three weeks, I've been thanked/complimented once and it wasn't because of my tanking but my attitude. I got into a group where the other four were fresh 80's and all were wearing quest and dungeon blues at best. They were all friendly and it was kind of nice to help them out.

I can't deny it, I was kind of asleep at the wheel that morning and wasn't putting forth much of an effort. If I had aggro I was happy, you know? Long story short, there was a sloppy moment where communication broke down, I wasn't pay enough attention and the healer got killed because of a shadow priest pulling a passed group. I probably wouldn't have even known what had happened if the priest didn't outright say "whoops, tab targetted." We wiped and I felt bad because there was no reason I couldn't have recovered. The DPS starts apologizing and I said "no big deal, it happens, I could have done more to save the situation."

The healer says "Wow, you're an awesome tank. Most would have rage-quit after that wipe."

I had to chuckle because it was the first time I'd been complimented in a pug... but on the other hand, I felt bad for them if they think tanks just instantly quit because of a single wipe that really, I should have avoided.

Cattlehunter
01-12-2010, 09:06 AM
As the tank I just start pulling the second I'm done with the loading screen. I make no pauses and use all cooldowns if the healer is drinking for whatever reason. Pretty easy to do 3-4 pulls with the healer afk assuming the DPS isn't (and they do about as much damage as me).

I leave when I die.

Only the icc5 heroics are exceptions, and then only because 80% of wow players are too mentally handicapped to not be hand-held through it all.

Eisen
01-12-2010, 09:11 AM
Additionally, offer your 3 second queue on the server for money. Charge something like 30 gold per person, per run and do as many as you can. That's 120g per run if you run a full server group, plus the profit from the gems. Depending on how lucky you are with getting a 5+ badge instance or Occulus, that can equate from 180-320 gold per-heroic. If your heroics take 20 minutes, that's easily a hypothetical ~600+ gold per hour if you chain them. That's not too bad, is it?

My only problem with that is the low queue times for tanks have ALREADY created a hassle to tanks on my server. We get whisper-bombed constantly by people that want us to group with them in randoms just to get through the queue faster. I am not your free ride.


As the tank I just start pulling the second I'm done with the loading screen. I make no pauses and use all cooldowns if the healer is drinking for whatever reason. Pretty easy to do 3-4 pulls with the healer afk assuming the DPS isn't (and they do about as much damage as me).

I leave when I die.

Only the icc5 heroics are exceptions, and then only because 80% of wow players are too mentally handicapped to not be hand-held through it all.

You do this on my healer, I let you die and either vote to kick or leave. If you can't wait 5 seconds for the group to get buffs out, you deserve your repair bill.

Synapse
01-12-2010, 09:36 AM
My only problem with that is the low queue times for tanks have ALREADY created a hassle to tanks on my server. We get whisper-bombed constantly by people that want us to group with them in randoms just to get through the queue faster. I am not your free ride.

"Selling my Tank spot in random 5-mans! Queue up instantly, guaranteed tankiness, 30g/person!"

Bovinity
01-12-2010, 09:39 AM
As the tank I just start pulling the second I'm done with the loading screen. I make no pauses and use all cooldowns if the healer is drinking for whatever reason. Pretty easy to do 3-4 pulls with the healer afk assuming the DPS isn't (and they do about as much damage as me).

I leave when I die.

Yeah, sorry...I'm all for fast pulls and such, but if I'm healing and you're just blatantly ignoring everyone else and then you're going to "leave when you die", I'll just vote to kick you and put my tanking gear on.

Doc309
01-12-2010, 09:48 AM
As the tank I just start pulling the second I'm done with the loading screen. I make no pauses and use all cooldowns if the healer is drinking for whatever reason. Pretty easy to do 3-4 pulls with the healer afk assuming the DPS isn't (and they do about as much damage as me).

I leave when I die.

Only the icc5 heroics are exceptions, and then only because 80% of wow players are too mentally handicapped to not be hand-held through it all.

OMG you are 1337....
80% mentally handicapped????

posts like this make me wonder if TS is becoming TOO popular.

Doc

Chamenas
01-12-2010, 10:19 AM
I'd like to see the post deleted. It's trolling to a very high degree.

Darmaul
01-12-2010, 10:55 AM
I love how people say there's no reward to triumph emblems after you've collected all the gear you want. 10-20 buys you an epic gem. Even if you're stocked up for all the upgrades you'll get in ICC, you can still sell the gems. Better yet if you aren't a JC, have a guildy cut it into a popular stat and sell it for even more.

Additionally, offer your 3 second queue on the server for money. Charge something like 30 gold per person, per run and do as many as you can. That's 120g per run if you run a full server group, plus the profit from the gems. Depending on how lucky you are with getting a 5+ badge instance or Occulus, that can equate from 180-320 gold per-heroic. If your heroics take 20 minutes, that's easily a hypothetical ~600+ gold per hour if you chain them. That's not too bad, is it?

It's not bad, but if I'm not doing guild runs then I'm generally leading Gold DKP runs which are usually 1k gold per hour in ToC and even higher with a good group in ICC.

I agree selling my q time for 30g per person would be a nice bonus, but then my 3 second q time just went to 3 seconds + time it takes to find 3 dps who want short q bad enough to pay for it. Haven't tried it, but I'm positive it's more than 3 seconds.

Eisen
01-12-2010, 11:56 AM
"Selling my Tank spot in random 5-mans! Queue up instantly, guaranteed tankiness, 30g/person!"

I do Heroics for two reasons:

1) My daily 2 frosts
2) My wife needs an badges for one of her toons and wants a tank she can trust.

I'll bring people along if they ask nicely for one of those two, otherwise I don't want to be bothered. Chances are I have something better to do.

Grannos
01-12-2010, 12:17 PM
As the tank I just start pulling the second I'm done with the loading screen. I make no pauses and use all cooldowns if the healer is drinking for whatever reason. Pretty easy to do 3-4 pulls with the healer afk assuming the DPS isn't (and they do about as much damage as me).

I leave when I die.

Only the icc5 heroics are exceptions, and then only because 80% of wow players are too mentally handicapped to not be hand-held through it all.

LMAO!!!! Grow up dude. No other comment is even worth the extra time it takes to type it.

!3M
01-12-2010, 07:50 PM
As the tank I just start pulling the second I'm done with the loading screen. I make no pauses and use all cooldowns if the healer is drinking for whatever reason. Pretty easy to do 3-4 pulls with the healer afk assuming the DPS isn't (and they do about as much damage as me).

I leave when I die.

Only the icc5 heroics are exceptions, and then only because 80% of wow players are too mentally handicapped to not be hand-held through it all.

Sounds like a good thing here... 'cos if I was in your group, we'd get a tank who's not an elitist sooner than we can kick.

Now for my sharing of a compliment.
I was in a random yesterday with a guildie DPS (DK) and got assigned to H PoS. Everything was fine until we hit the last boss. The shadow priest and warrior promptly got 1 shotted by rimefang (must have been a spike, they were pretty decent players). 8 minutes of fighting later, boss is dead with us 3 manning him.

There was a lot of compliments going around then. From "great healing" to "great tanking" to even "you guys rocked". Both myself and the guildie didn't really mind it, but when the priest and warrior apologized for their mistakes, even the healer (who was geared and looked like he didn't really need anything) said it was ok and that he actually had fun on that one.

It wasn't just the feeling of getting praised that got my spirits up, but more of the sense of camaraderie that was in the group that gave me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Mačl
01-13-2010, 02:19 AM
I had a couple of heroic bosses with only me and the healer standing.

Especially the stone giant boss in HoS springs to mind. Actually it comes as a relief when DPS have killed themselves off asap. This means they won't blow me or the healer to smithereens. Once I had to finish him off by my own starting at 50%. I don't get it. This guy is prime ROFLSTOMP material.

Cattlehunter
01-13-2010, 04:31 AM
I don't understand the negative feedback, I'm just repeating what tons of people have been saying throughout the rest of the thread.

I play the way I wish all the tanks I partied with would play, on my healer and my dpsers. Actually no, that's not true - I wish tanks would be faster and do much larger pulls than the ones I do.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to leave after not being healed for 3-4 pulls, I am a warrior and thus take close to zero damage in heroics since shield block and shockwave means the mobs will probably be dead before they even can start doing damage unless they do non-physical damage (which I prevent with spell reflect and several interrupts & stuns anyway). It would take an extreme level of failure to let my character die, he can usually be kept up with a single earth shield cast every minute or so. I don't have all the time in the world, my queues are instants and I have several alts to play while waiting for the debuff to expire.

woodyman
01-13-2010, 04:48 AM
I don't understand the negative feedback, I'm just repeating what tons of people have been saying throughout the rest of the thread.

I play the way I wish all the tanks I partied with would play, on my healer and my dpsers. Actually no, that's not true - I wish tanks would be faster and do much larger pulls than the ones I do.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to leave after not being healed for 3-4 pulls, I am a warrior and thus take close to zero damage in heroics since shield block and shockwave means the mobs will probably be dead before they even can start doing damage unless they do non-physical damage (which I prevent with spell reflect and several interrupts & stuns anyway). It would take an extreme level of failure to let my character die, he can usually be kept up with a single earth shield cast every minute or so. I don't have all the time in the world, my queues are instants and I have several alts to play while waiting for the debuff to expire.

If you cant understand why your comments are getting negative feed back then i guess there really is no hope.

remember there is no I in team...

Synapse
01-13-2010, 05:05 AM
I don't understand the negative feedback, I'm just repeating what tons of people have been saying throughout the rest of the thread.

I play the way I wish all the tanks I partied with would play, on my healer and my dpsers. Actually no, that's not true - I wish tanks would be faster and do much larger pulls than the ones I do.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to leave after not being healed for 3-4 pulls, I am a warrior and thus take close to zero damage in heroics since shield block and shockwave means the mobs will probably be dead before they even can start doing damage unless they do non-physical damage (which I prevent with spell reflect and several interrupts & stuns anyway). It would take an extreme level of failure to let my character die, he can usually be kept up with a single earth shield cast every minute or so. I don't have all the time in the world, my queues are instants and I have several alts to play while waiting for the debuff to expire.
Your mistake is two-fold:
1) You assume they know how you are going to pull
2) You assume they will like your method
Add to that your tolerance to failure approaching zero, and you're way high in the list of people that aren't liked for long.

Cattlehunter
01-13-2010, 05:16 AM
What, I'm outlining how to be as fast and effective as possible, and that's a bad thing? I mean, Lulia (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/../members/lulia.html) (in the OP), among others, brag about how they enjoy letting dpsers die - downright sabotage of their own groups for perverse pleasures - and nobody seems to care about that. Must be my wording. I should shugar coat it some, I suppose.



Your mistake is two-fold:
1) You assume they know how you are going to pull
2) You assume they will like your method
Add to that your tolerance to failure approaching zero, and you're way high in the list of people that aren't liked for long.I'm sure that, being human beings with brains and sensory organs and stuff like that, they can see how I'm pulling, and since I take like 2 minutes to die even with zero healing they have plenty of time to do whatever they please before they start participating. My method involves clearing the instance as fast and painlessly as possible for everyone involved, not sure how anybody would dislike that, but eh I can't read minds.

My tolerance for failure is humongous. For my character to actually die would take failures of such massive degrees that only the healer having gone afk and been afk for a good several minutes would be a satisfying reason. I don't know about you, but I don't join instances to wait for other people to come back from their AFK time, especially when they only have to (barely) pay attention for about 15 minutes. My most frequently recieved complaint is that the healers feel useless since there's usually nothing to heal except magical damage.

Mačl
01-13-2010, 05:49 AM
You do not drop the group for only one misbehaved DPS. You do it if the group has let you down as a total. You do not leave group when you die once.
Letting one DPS die in order to get him in line is OK as long as you do not kill innocent team members. Once the instance is started your goal as a tank and a potential team leader is to get the whole group to the end. You drop that goal at once when you can see that too many team members are working against you or due to serious personal insult. And as a tank and team leader it is also your goal to teach those who don't know. Perhaps it is an exercise in futility but even one DPS who gets it is worth the effort. What comes around goes around. Even if you won't see this DPS ever again you will have made life easier for the next tank. And a lesson of pain is worth a chuckle. Even if only you get the joke.

And even in cross realm queues I would watch my reputation. Closely.

Maelstrom
01-13-2010, 06:07 AM
I tank randoms on my vastly overgeared tank.

I'm not a douche that quits if my personally engineered situation of pulling too many mobs with no healer gets me killed.

I'm not an anus that votekicks healers if they can't keep up with me, I slow down.

I don't really care if DPS do less damage than me, and I certainly don't have the time to spew bilious nonsense into party chat when I could spend that time tanking.

I give DPS 1 warning if for some reason they want to pull groups instead of waiting half a second for me to get in range.

Generally, I view myself as the acceptable face of LFG tanking. Just thought I'd post this to try and break up the pathetic macho-posturing some people seem to be doing with regards to how leet and antisocial they want to appear.

Chamenas
01-13-2010, 06:43 AM
What, I'm outlining how to be as fast and effective as possible, and that's a bad thing? I mean, Lulia (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/../members/lulia.html) (in the OP), among others, brag about how they enjoy letting dpsers die - downright sabotage of their own groups for perverse pleasures - and nobody seems to care about that. Must be my wording. I should shugar coat it some, I suppose.

Excuse me? Please prove or show where I bragged or showed pleasure in letting DPS die. I've resolved to do it if they do things like pull before me, but it doesn't make me happy, I don't brag about it. It's in fact, frustrating, frustrating that I have yet another DPS that doesn't know how to act and I will have to deal with them dying and verbally abusing me in the instance when they don't get it.

If you want to make such assertions, be prepared to back them up or you'll be reported.

Murdog
01-13-2010, 06:50 AM
LOL this thread makes me giggle

Tylovan
01-13-2010, 06:57 AM
Personally I treat my LFG groups with the utmost respect. I'm not a fast tank, mostly because I prioritize everyone being alive and I've had times where we've been cruising along one moment just fine and the next we're suddenly all dead or dropping like flies. Mostly we all go '...wtf?' but we don't really care too much and we slow down a bit and everything's fine.

Every so often, however, I'll pull an entire room if I have a healer I know and respect with me. Though before I do it I usually try and give the group warning that I'm gonna do such.

I just find it too bad that while we as tanks (mostly) strive to treat the rest of the group with respect and we're keenly aware of the team side of doing dungeons and raids, people still whine at us. 'go faster!' 'pull more!' 'pull the boss with that pack!' 'you're taking too much damage! you fail!' 'this is easy! you shouldn't be dying!'

....sometimes I feel like if you wanna run dungeons, you should be made to tank them for a time so you can properly appreciate the group aspect of things.

Yeah...I'll go faster if you ask nicely and prove you can handle it. same with pulling more and pulling the boss. If I'm taking too much damage, stop surfing the web and throwing out a Flash of Light every twenty seconds and try actually focusing. The easy thing....yeah, that's a whole blog entry right there.

But yeah...that's why you see my tank in the LFG Queue less and less.

Chamenas
01-13-2010, 07:08 AM
LOL this thread makes me giggle

That would be its intention. Hopefully you're laughing with us rather than at us :p

Esch
01-13-2010, 07:36 AM
I do Heroics for two reasons:

1) My daily 2 frosts
2) My wife needs an badges for one of her toons and wants a tank she can trust.

I'll bring people along if they ask nicely for one of those two, otherwise I don't want to be bothered. Chances are I have something better to do.

I'm pretty much here. I'll PUG my shaman (as I prefer to DPS currently), but when I'm going to tank, I ninja anyone in my guild I can find. Some folks don't have time or have 'only' DPS characters, so this gets them in, while providing me with competent/known players.

I've found 80% of PUG players are just trying to get/farm badges, do the instance well (not even fast) and just not spend all day. Sadly, the biggest headaches are the overgeared folks that think they're too important. Sigh.

Great example was a Fury warrior in AN, that was sustaining 6k, running ToGC25 gear, etc. Pretty impressive. Wouldn't manage his threat. On my paladin alt, I ended up using HoSalvation/BoP to dump his threat and avoid him killing everything (my alt is geared towards ToC10, balanced survival/threat rather than pure threat). His view was I should get more threat rather than him counting to something like... "1" before blowing trinkets and aoe'ing. I accepted he was going to pull threat, and the minute I had HoS/BoP on cooldown, he died messily. I rezzed, rebuffed, continued, took ~20 minutes total.

Punchline was he needed the orb, got it, and /quit. I was bemused.

Mačl
01-13-2010, 07:58 AM
DPS warriors are always a problem. Especially Fury warriors since their first move typically is a WW. I caved in and got rid of aloft and the threat extension for tidy plates for that lot. At least I know where to put my Vigilance on since I don't have to wonder if they are there to heal.
In many ways I pity dps warriors, DKs and retardins. They have a lower threshhold for pulling aggro and their threat reduction sucks. Especially arms warriors.

...but you can't tank arrogance as well as stupidity. I'd take great comfort knowing how his repair bill will look like. And he has two two-handed weapons. Ouch.

Reev
01-13-2010, 08:10 AM
I hate tanking for dps warriors. They don't really ramp up their damage the same way that other classes do. It's sort of on or off, so they often start pulls with some serious damage when I'm still establishing aggro. The good arms warriors will at least wait a little bit before popping bladestorm, but they're rare.

Nothing worse than charging into a group and while you're gathering them, the dps warrior charges one and stuns it so that you don't get it into your thunderclap radius. You chase it down, but in that time you haven't been building much threat on the other mobs, so when you do get to him and the warrior bladestorms immediately, or just whirlwinds, he has a good chance of pulling them off of you.

It's really annoying as a tank, but honestly, these days if the healer in a heroic is awake, a plate dps could honestly probably tank the whole instance if need be. I just vigilance the warrior, and suck it up and hope he isn't more annoying than usual.

Mačl
01-13-2010, 08:15 AM
Yes, you can let plate DPS offtank one mob. Trouble is if you have them in a tight group you may have trouble to see if it is one or three mobs.
Is it just me or does the global cooldown take ages just the 5 seconds after the pull. It's like watching a pull falling apart in bullet time Matrix style. You can't even rage starve them before the pull. They keep theirs longer than you will have yours.

mavfin
01-13-2010, 08:32 AM
Yes, you can let plate DPS offtank one mob. Trouble is if you have them in a tight group you may have trouble to see if it is one or three mobs.
Is it just me or does the global cooldown take ages just the 5 seconds after the pull. It's like watching a pull falling apart in bullet time Matrix style. You can't even rage starve them before the pull. They keep theirs longer than you will have yours.

Yeah, I go fury on my warrior tank some, but I don't charge in till the tank has them clustered. I don't do the stuff that would piss me off if someone did it to me. Now, I may WW quickly, but if that pulls a mob off the tank, it's my fault, not the tank's. He'll never hear any bitching from me about it, unless I waited an awfully long time to do so, enough that the tank should have had it, and even then, I'm not likely to say anything, as long as the run is going fine.

Darksend
01-13-2010, 08:49 AM
I don't understand the negative feedback, I'm just repeating what tons of people have been saying throughout the rest of the thread.

I play the way I wish all the tanks I partied with would play, on my healer and my dpsers. Actually no, that's not true - I wish tanks would be faster and do much larger pulls than the ones I do.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to leave after not being healed for 3-4 pulls, I am a warrior and thus take close to zero damage in heroics since shield block and shockwave means the mobs will probably be dead before they even can start doing damage unless they do non-physical damage (which I prevent with spell reflect and several interrupts & stuns anyway). It would take an extreme level of failure to let my character die, he can usually be kept up with a single earth shield cast every minute or so. I don't have all the time in the world, my queues are instants and I have several alts to play while waiting for the debuff to expire.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, you cannot go around called 80% of the wow community mentally retarded. These are not the wow forums we do not appreciate that kind of feedback


And as a tank and team leader it is also your goal to teach those who don't know.


It really is not, when I am in game I feel no responsibility at all to explain anything or teach anyone. I will never respond to tells from people asking for advice. When I am playing I just do not have the time. Catch me on the forums and I will be the first person to help, but in game, no. If people wont to learn they will come to the forums and try to better themselves regardless of what I do. If people just do not to read forums and make themselves better it is a waste of my time and the 3 other people in the group to try and help them because they will be ignoring you anyway.

cayuse
01-13-2010, 08:58 AM
Early in my tanking carreer (before dungeon finder) an Uber geared friend-of-a-friend mage joined our party for VH and the dude would blink his way clear across the instance to the new portal and start attacking before there was any chance that I could get there. He killed himself only twice.. but I'm still scratching my head as to what he was thinking.

BTW, thanks for this thread, it has ben a really enjoyable distraction from all the numbers and theory I've been studying on this site.. every one of your anecdotes cracks me up.

Synapse
01-13-2010, 08:59 AM
DPS warriors are always a problem. Especially Fury warriors since their first move typically is a WW. I caved in and got rid of aloft and the threat extension for tidy plates for that lot. At least I know where to put my Vigilance on since I don't have to wonder if they are there to heal.
In many ways I pity dps warriors, DKs and retardins. They have a lower threshhold for pulling aggro and their threat reduction sucks. Especially arms warriors.

...but you can't tank arrogance as well as stupidity. I'd take great comfort knowing how his repair bill will look like. And he has two two-handed weapons. Ouch.
DKs and Ret Pallies have quite good threat reduction, actually, both have talents that give them ~30% reduction on threat. And both of them happen to be good dps talents before the reduction. What htey can't do is OPEN the fight with aoes before the tank. Especially D&D and Divine Storm.

Dark
01-13-2010, 09:08 AM
In general I have had a good experience with the lfg. I use to HATE pugs because of some traumatizing experiences when I started tanking (TBC). :)

Anyway here are my two stories:
1) DK instance: Gave time for buffs mana... then started to pull. Noticed peeps are not dpsing my target and pulling aggro... no worries...tab cleave devastate... no biggie but bad sign. About to engage first boss.
Healer: SLOWAAaAASSSTANK...
Healer: SLOWASSTANK
I finish killing the boss and ask:"What?!"
Healer: is it just me or ur slow?
Reste of the group: He's doing fine...let's just continue...we have 7mns before the lock
Me: To healer...well then u can tank it yourself. I don't take abuse from no one...
Left party.

UK:
When i'm in a pug I start by jauging my healer and group before adjusting my pulls.
Pulled the two at the door then proceeded to pull the group on the right. Rogue decides it's too slow and ToT-FoK the group on the left to me.
Finished killing the adds then:
Me: Rogue don't do that again...
Rogue: Sorry but looking at your gear u can handle that easily
Me: It's discourteous towards me and I have my reasons for not pulling the whole room...
Rogue: Ok fine... ur just being a tank... which means controlling.
Then starts yapping in party chat about how I am slowing down on purpose. Lol. I'm not doing that instance for the pleasure of ur company... I wanted it to be done as fast as possible.
Left group there...told the rogue to tank himself then.

Cabar
01-13-2010, 09:09 AM
DKs and Ret Pallies have quite good threat reduction, actually, both have talents that give them ~30% reduction on threat. And both of them happen to be good dps talents before the reduction. What htey can't do is OPEN the fight with aoes before the tank. Especially D&D and Divine Storm.

DKs have innate reduction while in unholy/blood anyhow. Plus the talent you mention. But regardless you don't START with DnD as dps. Disease em first then do it. And of course let your tank get initial agro or you'll be behind the threat curve the entire fight.

!3M
01-13-2010, 10:39 AM
I think it wasn't more for the lack of sugar Cattle but how you said it. It kinda sounded like you don't wait for people to ready up from these two sentences.


As the tank I just start pulling the second I'm done with the loading screen. I make no pauses and use all cooldowns if the healer is drinking for whatever reason.

Added on to that was the sentence which gave everyone the impression that while you wait for no one, and started the minute you zoned in; you will also leave the minute you die.


I leave when I die.

This doesn't really help anyone in the group. From your responds, I have a feeling that you might have just worded it a little too snappy.

On to my sharing...
Got into a group with my tank and everyone was at the last boss in H UP. Apparently the tank bailed after getting alot of hate.

me: the last tank bailed?
rogue: yea, he was a fail tank... and he was very slow
hunter: yup, slow

To which I told them that they should let him move at his pace. Lo and behold, both the rogue and hunter were tank alts and they were telling me how they usually tank. I did remind them that they had to start somewhere (rather candidly) and both of them did realise that it might have been a little harsh.

Warm fuzzy feeling that I helped them realise a little about their roots.

Sharing no.2
Pugged random on my priest and got PoS. Again 2 bosses cleared, group wipes and tank + healer leaves. I didn't bother to ask this time and noticed on the trash with 3 casters that everyone was doing their own thing. The group took dmg and warrior died (I had to pick the tank to heal 1st. I told the warrior I was sorry but tank get heal priorities and he laughed, that sorted out the 'do your own thing' bit as everyone was focus firing after that.

Slightly warm fuzzy feeling. :P

Bashal
01-13-2010, 10:49 AM
My LFG story:

I was on a dps alt, partied with a tank in our guild and we queued. We get HoS.

We were added to a run that was already in progress, with no bosses down yet. Turns out only the first three trash pulls were done.

Me: lol what happened?
Healer: Tank pulled left side, DK DPS pulled right side, and we wiped. While running back into the instance, DK and Tank muttered about getting no heals and dropped.

We sped through the rest of the instance without any real incident. It's nice to come along and rescue the non-fail leftovers. :)

!3M
01-13-2010, 10:55 AM
We sped through the rest of the instance without any real incident. It's nice to come along and rescue the non-fail leftovers. :)

Haha Bashal... love that feeling too. I especially appreciate this gesture from tanks and heals when I'm on my hunter and has provided me the same motivation to help similar groups when I'm on my tank or priest.

Eisen
01-13-2010, 11:02 AM
What, I'm outlining how to be as fast and effective as possible, and that's a bad thing?

Yes, it is. Have we all forgotten how to be corteous? Remember there's 4 other human beings in your party, and they may not be happy with that pace. Waiting 30 seconds for buffs isn't going to kill you. I mean, my god, your badge/hr rate might drop a tiny bit. Poor baby. Fairly certain you won't die. I don't care if you can pull everything to the first boss at once and your HP bar never budges, it's stilll rude.


I mean, Lulia (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/members/lulia.html) (in the OP), among others, brag about how they enjoy letting dpsers die - downright sabotage of their own groups for perverse pleasures

Way to twist things around. Look, a party is a TEAM. Everyone should be working together for the common goal. A tank that pulls before the group is ready is thinking of himself. A DPS that cares more about inflating his damage meter than getting out of the void zones and dies is being selfish. A healer that afks in the middle of a fight knowing the group can't survive is not being a team player. If those people don't want to be a part of the team, I don' care if they die. If they act like total jackasses from the start you're darn RIGHT I'm gonna be happy about them dying. They get what they deserve. I'm not cheering because I'm sabotaging the group- I'm cheering because someone that was sabotaging the group got theirs.

Chamenas
01-13-2010, 12:00 PM
They get what they deserve. I'm not cheering because I'm sabotaging the group- I'm cheering because someone that was sabotaging the group got theirs.

Right. I'm not sabotaging a group, and I never will. There have been times when I wanted to pull and drop group and essentially a dump a load on a party, but I won't do it. I have a level of expectation from myself which denies me that, which tells me that I need to have enough respect for myself to not stoop to their level. Other people may choose to do it, and that's their own issue and I in no way enforce my judgments or decision on them, but I simply won't do it.

I have been in groups with some people that were obscenely jerkish or punky, but I either leave the group peacefully or suck it up and deal with it. I don't sabotage. This post is meant to be a place for people to vent particular stories that are frustrating and to allow them a place to look back on those stories and laugh at how ridiculous some people are. I get no perverse pleasure from suffering.


DKs and Ret Pallies have quite good threat reduction, actually, both have talents that give them ~30% reduction on threat. And both of them happen to be good dps talents before the reduction. What htey can't do is OPEN the fight with aoes before the tank. Especially D&D and Divine Storm.

This. DPS don't seem to understand that I have to drop D&D, hit HB and likely BB before they can use their AoE without pulling. They see D&D go down and rush right in, or worse, see me approach the group and rush right in. The worst offenders, to me, have been warrior and paladins. Warriors will charge right in before I can even get there, and Divine Storm creates some insane TPS and if I can't get my own threat in before it goes off, it's a major struggle to get it back.

Generally I'm fine, D&D is often enough. But if DPS is specifically having threat issues, they need to wait for a couple of ticks of D&D to hit plus my other two AoE threat abilities, but they can't stand waiting, not even for the total of 3 global cooldowns (3 whole seconds... ...)

Ronninn
01-13-2010, 12:34 PM
I recently stated tanking and I'm simpathetic to all of you. My main spec is fury, and unlike most fury warriors I wait 2 seconds before charging in, and I open up with Bloodthirst on the target the tank has in his focus before using Whirlwind. It's a lot friendlier on the repair bills and the tanks seem to like running with me a little more then some of the other gung hoe warriors that are fixated on their recount.

Britter
01-13-2010, 12:49 PM
So I think it was the OP's main intent here to hear our humerus anecdotes about our experiences with the new LFD mechanic. Bearing in mind that this site is dedicated to tanking as a whole but also that most who come here are raiders or want to be raiders, the level of game play for this audience is probably above that of the average WoW head. (not an intentional reference to another WoW site :p).

I have enjoyed tanking from just before the release of BC and have raided in most content as a tank. Enjoy it immensely! I have a warrior tank mid 70's, a paly tank who is running in ICC, a DK in her mid 60's and a bear in low 50's. I love tanking on all of them and have really enjoyed the LFD for that reason. It offers a way to see content at all of those levels.

Funny (at least to me) story. My DK is spec'd mainly for leveling at this point and I have not spent the gold on a dual spec yet but find it easy enough just clicking on frost in order to tank the BC instances. We loaded into Slave Pens and the mage in the group immediately asks, "Will you be able to hold?" I am not completely sure what they mean so I ask, "Agro?" He says "yes, you are not spec'd frost." Druid healer pipes in "you don't have to be spec'd frost to tank, you can tank as blood". I say, "well haven't had a problem so far but lets pull a few groups and see how it goes. If I can't keep agro, I will drop group and you can get another tank." Well, things group great. We clear the instance with decent efficiency and no deaths. Some of that from my ability, I hope, and some from having a good healer. No loss of agro on any of the pulls and my parting comments to the mage are, "Well I hope I lived up to your satisfaction. Thanks for the group!" Recount, which I did not post, had me as top over all damage and dps on all boss fights and for the entire instance.

I found that an enjoyable run and a little humerus given the initial lack of faith. We all play this game at different levels and a geared tank with unbuffed health sitting at 38 to 40k is going to have a different perspective than a newer player who never saw the inside of a single raid instance but is wanting to get some nice purple gear from heroics.

Have fun, enjoy the company of a few strangers and remember,

"Whenever there is a hard job to be done I assign it to a lazy man; he is sure to find an easy way of doing it." Walter Chrysler

Brit

Darmaul
01-13-2010, 12:54 PM
In general I have had a good experience with the lfg. I use to HATE pugs because of some traumatizing experiences when I started tanking (TBC). :)

Anyway here are my two stories:
1) DK instance: Gave time for buffs mana... then started to pull. Noticed peeps are not dpsing my target and pulling aggro... no worries...tab cleave devastate... no biggie but bad sign. About to engage first boss.
Healer: SLOWAAaAASSSTANK...
Healer: SLOWASSTANK
I finish killing the boss and ask:"What?!"
Healer: is it just me or ur slow?
Reste of the group: He's doing fine...let's just continue...we have 7mns before the lock
Me: To healer...well then u can tank it yourself. I don't take abuse from no one...
Left party.

UK:
When i'm in a pug I start by jauging my healer and group before adjusting my pulls.
Pulled the two at the door then proceeded to pull the group on the right. Rogue decides it's too slow and ToT-FoK the group on the left to me.
Finished killing the adds then:
Me: Rogue don't do that again...
Rogue: Sorry but looking at your gear u can handle that easily
Me: It's discourteous towards me and I have my reasons for not pulling the whole room...
Rogue: Ok fine... ur just being a tank... which means controlling.
Then starts yapping in party chat about how I am slowing down on purpose. Lol. I'm not doing that instance for the pleasure of ur company... I wanted it to be done as fast as possible.
Left group there...told the rogue to tank himself then.

Only reason I can see for not pulling the whole room is that you *couldn't* handle it easily. And there's only two reasons you couldn't handle it easily, either gear or skill. Since it's not your gear, hopefully the group you left got in a skilled tank to replace you.

It's also worth noting that since pre-formed groups missing 1 member move to the head of the line, you're petty attitude of "I'm taking my ball and going home" has *very little* impact on the groups you leave. Probably MOST of them are saying "I'm glad he's gone, what a ****!", then select replace member and welcome him with stories about the douche he's replacing.

This is a thread about why tanks aren't in the LFG q, but you illustrate very well why many dps are willing to pay 30g a run to group with a non-douche tank.

One of the things I really enjoy is when I join a Random after a couple of bosses are dead to replace a tank and have the party members say "wow, this is so much nicer than the last guy." In fact, if you weren't Horde, I'd be pretty sure I'd come into one of the groups you left as they were talking about a cowardly, arrogant tank that was afraid of pulling large groups and criticism.

Theotherone
01-13-2010, 01:11 PM
It's become some type of Red Badge of Courage to speed run through instances. When I tank I go at my pace and try to keep a quick steady pace - if the dps has an issue, I'm happy to leave and wait 5 seconds for another group. On my hunter I just go with the flow. Frankly, I'm not going to get upset because I spent an extra 10 minutes in an instance - instead of sitting in Dal trolling trade chat. But then again, I guess I just don't have as many important things to do as these other people.

jworley
01-13-2010, 01:25 PM
This particular instance I toss up to a bunch of elitists deciding to be assholes......I'm tanking heroic culling of strathome on my DK. The dps and the healer vastly out gear me so I make note of it at the beginning of the run...
ME: "hey guys, I'm an experienced tank and know what I'm doing, but this guy is alot less geared than y'all, please watch ur threat"
RESPONCES: "yea sure, let's just go"

Their idea of watching their threat turned out to be pulling trash, giving me no chance to build agro, swinging for the fences at every possible moment, and talking trash about me the whole instance.

I ignored it and did the instance (hell I'm gearing the DK up, don't really give a damn about stupid ppl), but I did have to shake my head after the fact. People can go out of their ways to be such assholes....it's sad really.

That's prolly the one main gripe I have about the whole cross server LFG business, it has really brought the stupidity and simple meanness out of some people it seems like.

Malaegis
01-13-2010, 01:26 PM
I have been loving the LFD tool; I use it more on my DPS alts, though, as it was never tough finding an instance as a tank or healer. As for problems tanking, I don't really have too many complaints. I have been in the random where I was leading DPS on my warrior tank, and I have been in ones where every dps was doing over 5k and starting to hit things before I get to the mobs. Each pug has its challenge, and I find that part of the fun.

About the only bad time I have had tanking was in HoR. We got past the first 2 bosses fine, and one guy even said he was pleasantly surprised, since he had bad experiences with warrior tanks in there before. I just said thanks, and we moved on to the gauntlet, which was going well. At the last section, the DK pops army as the first mobs come in. Long story short, when the army went away, so did the group. (No rage and no threat + mobs everywhere and more on the way = bad times) I asked the DK not to pop army, and we go through again. Army came out again, exact same spot, and we wipe. Third pull I managed to convince him not to use it, and we won.

I honestly don't mind just about anything a DPS or healer can do in a heroic. For some reason, though, Army of the Dead makes me die a little inside every time it gets used...

Bladesong
01-13-2010, 01:45 PM
Only reason I can see for not pulling the whole room is that you *couldn't* handle it easily. And there's only two reasons you couldn't handle it easily, either gear or skill. Since it's not your gear, hopefully the group you left got in a skilled tank to replace you.

It's also worth noting that since pre-formed groups missing 1 member move to the head of the line, you're petty attitude of "I'm taking my ball and going home" has *very little* impact on the groups you leave. Probably MOST of them are saying "I'm glad he's gone, what a ****!", then select replace member and welcome him with stories about the douche he's replacing.

This is a thread about why tanks aren't in the LFG q, but you illustrate very well why many dps are willing to pay 30g a run to group with a non-douche tank.

Heroics are the shallow end of the pool and there are going to be people there both gearing up and learning how to tank/heal/dps. If you're not willing to deal with that, then you shouldn't run them. Ironically, you have displayed the exact Me Me Me attitude that most of this thread is dedicated to laughing at :rolleyes:

Chamenas
01-13-2010, 01:50 PM
Lets keep the tone of this thread where it's supposed to be, please. And thank you for the people posting stories :)

Rominoodle
01-13-2010, 01:54 PM
OH, the epic fail. DK DPS pulls out AoD on every boss in Nexus. Over vent, I said...if he pulls out AoD....stay out of the dragon's way. I'm not doing anything. He did, he died, then I grabbed the dragon. THAT dps realized the error of his ways, and apologized.

I did an ICC rep run one day with a pug because I was bored and I figured that since I've cleared most of icc10/25 that a rep run would be cake. Somebody activated a trap in the first room which is not a big deal, i picked up the big dude and faced him away from the raid and a DK decides to blow his army. Mob turns around and cleaves...there goes our melee. DK has the nerve to say, well I thought he had enough threat...Ones like those are what creates the DK stereotype of "Nub Class"

orcstar
01-13-2010, 02:02 PM
I did an ICC rep run one day with a pug because I was bored and I figured that since I've cleared most of icc10/25 that a rep run would be cake. Somebody activated a trap in the first room which is not a big deal, i picked up the big dude and faced him away from the raid and a DK decides to blow his army. Mob turns around and cleaves...there goes our melee. DK has the nerve to say, well I thought he had enough threat...Ones like those are what creates the DK stereotype of "Nub Class"Did the little ghouls outdps you or are those big mobs only immune to taunt from tanks?

Dark
01-13-2010, 02:20 PM
Only reason I can see for not pulling the whole room is that you *couldn't* handle it easily. And there's only two reasons you couldn't handle it easily, either gear or skill. Since it's not your gear, hopefully the group you left got in a skilled tank to replace you.

It's also worth noting that since pre-formed groups missing 1 member move to the head of the line, you're petty attitude of "I'm taking my ball and going home" has *very little* impact on the groups you leave. Probably MOST of them are saying "I'm glad he's gone, what a ****!", then select replace member and welcome him with stories about the douche he's replacing.

This is a thread about why tanks aren't in the LFG q, but you illustrate very well why many dps are willing to pay 30g a run to group with a non-douche tank.

One of the things I really enjoy is when I join a Random after a couple of bosses are dead to replace a tank and have the party members say "wow, this is so much nicer than the last guy." In fact, if you weren't Horde, I'd be pretty sure I'd come into one of the groups you left as they were talking about a cowardly, arrogant tank that was afraid of pulling large groups and criticism.
And you sir illustrate the kind of person I wouldn't run with.
No matter what my reasons are... being gear or skill (both of which I have believe it or not), they are valid. Tanks are also responsible for not causing stupid wipes by overaggroing an entire room.
And if you bothered to read my answer carefully, you would have seen this: When i'm in a pug I start by gauging my healer and group before adjusting my pulls
Regarding my "petty" attitude. I didn't leave the group to make them wait in queue, I left because I expect the same respect I offer my peers be it irl or in game.

And your statement:"Cowardly arrogant tank" is out of place boy.

Kazeyonoma
01-13-2010, 02:40 PM
Thread closed.

There isn't really much point to keeping this thread open anymore. Yes some pugs are bad, yes sometimes you need to grit your teeth and go through it, but yes, some pugs are fine and occasionally you get the good one too.