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elyina
12-29-2009, 06:30 PM
Heres my issue.. I'm taking a lot more damage than our paladin tanks in ICC and I die a lot faster. Thing is I cannot figure out what I'm doing wrong so I thought I'd turn here for advice. Take a look at my armory if you want The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Elyina) any advice would be appreciated :/

Insahnity
12-29-2009, 06:57 PM
Heres my issue.. I'm taking a lot more damage than our paladin tanks in ICC and I die a lot faster. Thing is I cannot figure out what I'm doing wrong so I thought I'd turn here for advice. Take a look at my armory if you want The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Elyina) any advice would be appreciated :/

There's nothing really wrong with your gear or your spec that I can see. There are some minor things you can do for gear (Black heart over Ony trinket, some sort of survival enchant instead of titanium chain on weapon, such as mongoose/bladeward/etc.), and you could glyph your survival talents, but it won't significantly alter damage intake per se. This just leaves actual play, like making sure Shield Block is used constantly, keeping mobs in front of you instead of behind, and so on. You'd either need somebody in game to watch or try gathering some sort of parse of your combat logs and post them for us to review.

And I'm sure you already know this, but get your smithing up to obtain glove/bracer sockets.

Aggathon
12-29-2009, 07:22 PM
I'd suggest enchanting your cloak with 225 armor and your gloves with 240 armor and picking up glyph of indominability.

Another thing (though pretty small) is to change the gem in your bracers to +30 stam. Otherwise your gearing/enchanting seems decent other than you go for the 4pc T9 bonus. If you have no other options then okay, but Hauberk of Towering Monstrosity and Legguards of Feverish Dedication are both better... or whatever you silly alliance call those counterparts.

I agree with Insahnity though, while there are some small things you can do, to an extent it's just small things. Either you're not using cooldowns properly or the paladins you are tanking with just flat out out gear you by a significant margin.

Insahnity
12-29-2009, 08:58 PM
I'd suggest enchanting your cloak with 225 armor and your gloves with 240 armor and picking up glyph of indominability.

The stam czar advocating armor on gloves over stamina? *gasp*

I disagree with Agg's choice of glove enchants, simply because of This Post.

The relevant excerpt is this, bolded section is where I see the OP situated:



The new math suggests:


If you have 42k health, the Armor Trinket is better until you have over 19.2k armor.
If you have 45k health, the Armor Trinket is better until you have over 21.8k armor.
If you have 48k health, the Armor Trinket is better until you have over 24.3k armor.
If you have 27k armor, the Stam Trinket is better so long as your health is less than 51.1k.
If you have 29k armor, the Stam Trinket is better so long as your health is less than 53.5k.
If you have 31k armor, the Stam Trinket is better so long as your health is less than 55.8k.



Of course, this assumes threat enchants are discounted.

Aggathon
12-30-2009, 12:55 AM
But that math in that post is completely based on totally different numbers and items, it's not even about the enchants! Each time I've run the EHP calcs 240 armor comes up more. I will admit its close, but typically the higher stam you have the better armor gets. It's why I have enough HP now that Glyph of Indom is now more EHP than heart of iron (the threshold is around 52.4kish HP).

Also, I'm the stam czar because I advocate EHP over avoidance and EHP Czar doesn't sound near as cool.

Unger
12-30-2009, 09:42 AM
I think there are a few things you could do to improve survivability;

Your glyphs are for threat. Take the sunder and cleave glyph out and put in last stand and shield wall. This will give you about 25% uptime on cooldowns (LS for 20 sec every 120 sec, shield wall for 10 sec every 120 sec, total 30 sec out of 120 sec). Dont worry about trash... let the DK's and Pallys do what they do best..... AOE tank.

Next, you really need to level your professions. Max mining gives an extra 60 stamina for toughness and maxx blacksmithing allows you to add extra sockets (I believe). These professions are being underutilized.

Spec wise, I dont understand leaving out incite, which buffs your cleave and thunderclap (since you seemed to glyph and spec for aoe threat). If you want deep wounds that bad, take 3 points out of your shield specialization. You will lose rage, but I suspect that if you are getting trucked, rage isnt an issue anyway.

Iron will is weak imo for PvE..., if there are rage issues, put them in imp heroic strike. Otherwise, go with tactical mastery so you can keep rage when you are switching to pop a shattering throw or a retaliation (retaliation, btw is a fantastic way to hold mobs for AOE pulls on trash).

Make sure you are popping shield block on trash fights and the mobs are in front of you.

Finally, I will respectfully disagree with the other posters. Your gear is still fairly low for ICC combat (especially 25 man). You have 9 items at 232 or lower and the 245 trinket is pretty lackluster. You really need to improve the gear level as soon as you can. Specifically, the cloak and brewmaster trinket need to be upgraded. Make those your first two badge upgrades and then run TotGC to get some 245-258 gear right away.

Its really hard to take gear that drops primarily from ToC 10 man (232) and then tank ICC 25 (which I see you are doing from your acheivements). Youre trying to skip a few steps here and unless your guild is geared and can carry you, this will be really hard.

Bung
12-30-2009, 09:58 AM
The above posters are off a little bit. Your spec is wrong and your gear lacks expertise. Your NOT expertise capped. I can't believe anyone who didnt look at your spec didnt see that. Re-gem with some exp/stam gems until your reach the soft of 26. respec to include 3 points in incite. Take 2 points from booming voice and 1 point from shield specialization. Keep your glyphs, they are fine. Your avoidance numbers and health pool are fine. Also socket your bracers nad gloves. If you are dying its your healers not you. I believe pally tanks can just survive better than warriors imo. If you want to spec and glyph for survivability there is a way to do it. Right now you are more aoe specced/glyphed. I would think with your current spec and expertise level your main problem would be holding aggro. Happy new year and good luck!

Unger
12-30-2009, 10:17 AM
^not sure, but he didnt say he was having threat issues. Personally, I would not gem for experise if you are haaving survival issues. Just my opinion....

Bovinity
12-30-2009, 11:08 AM
The above posters are off a little bit. Your spec is wrong and your gear lacks expertise. Your NOT expertise capped. I can't believe anyone who didnt look at your spec didnt see that. Re-gem with some exp/stam gems until your reach the soft of 26. respec to include 3 points in incite. Take 2 points from booming voice and 1 point from shield specialization. Keep your glyphs, they are fine. Your avoidance numbers and health pool are fine. Also socket your bracers nad gloves. If you are dying its your healers not you. I believe pally tanks can just survive better than warriors imo. If you want to spec and glyph for survivability there is a way to do it. Right now you are more aoe specced/glyphed. I would think with your current spec and expertise level your main problem would be holding aggro. Happy new year and good luck!

He's having survival issues, not threat issues.

The advice given by the first few posters is the most correct information. As was said before, most of your gear is fine, some tweaks suggested above would help. Glyphing for more survival would definately be a big boon as well, significantly increasing the uptime on your cooldowns and decreasing incoming damage.

Anything else would be left to analysing your activity during fights. As was said, making sure you're shield blocking, keeping Thunderclap and Demo Shout up if no one else is providing those debuffs. (The tooltips might not sound like much, but the difference in damage output between a boss with neither debuff and a boss with both is...well, it's huge. I don't remember the number!)

Realistically, your gear and stats are plenty high to be tanking ICC 25. There are honestly no fights in there currently that REALLY say, "Rawr, I'm beating your tank up." In fact, if you can tank some of the heavier hitters in ToC, you can certainly do the current ICC bosses.

Insahnity
12-30-2009, 05:19 PM
The above posters are off a little bit. Your spec is wrong and your gear lacks expertise. Your NOT expertise capped. I can't believe anyone who didnt look at your spec didnt see that. Re-gem with some exp/stam gems until your reach the soft of 26. respec to include 3 points in incite. Take 2 points from booming voice and 1 point from shield specialization. Keep your glyphs, they are fine. Your avoidance numbers and health pool are fine. Also socket your bracers nad gloves. If you are dying its your healers not you. I believe pally tanks can just survive better than warriors imo. If you want to spec and glyph for survivability there is a way to do it. Right now you are more aoe specced/glyphed. I would think with your current spec and expertise level your main problem would be holding aggro. Happy new year and good luck!

Yeah, well, since aggro holding is not an issue we can dispense with the expertise for threat discussion on this thread.

To be fair, we can briefly discuss expertise as a defensive stat. It's such a minor problem, but technically this tank could be suffering from some parry-hasted attacks. Again, as mentioned earlier, we can only diagnose this with a combat log parse. it should be noticed that 26 expertise still only reduces parry chance to 7.5%, not eliminates it.

Aggathon
12-30-2009, 05:27 PM
Yeah, well, since aggro holding is not an issue we can dispense with the expertise for threat discussion on this thread.

To be fair, we can briefly discuss expertise as a defensive stat. It's such a minor problem, but technically this tank could be suffering from some parry-hasted attacks. Again, as mentioned earlier, we can only diagnose this with a combat log parse. it should be noticed that 26 expertise still only reduces parry chance to 7.5%, not eliminates it.

6.5%**

And ya, I agree that you really shouldn't gem for expertise if you are having survival problems, the issue is probably in the cooldowns and such.

As far as spec though, I do agree, you should really have 3/3 incite, I didn't really look at the spec, but 3/3 incite is extremely useful, threat issues or not.

veneretio
12-30-2009, 05:38 PM
Heres my issue.. I'm taking a lot more damage than our paladin tanks in ICC and I die a lot faster. Thing is I cannot figure out what I'm doing wrong so I thought I'd turn here for advice. Take a look at my armory if you want The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Elyina) any advice would be appreciated :/
Could you be specific about when the paladin seems to be taking less damage? Or the situations that cause you to do a lot faster? Perhaps even add the Paladins armory as well.

Also, pay attention to how often Ardent Defender procs for the Paladin. If it's happening a lot then the issue isn't necessarily you, but instead an overall strat problem.

Xianth
12-31-2009, 02:59 AM
Threat issues or not, expertise up to 26 is so valuable there's no reason not to have it if you aint softcapped.

Of course following on from the question at hand (ie. survivability), if he's glyphing for threat but ignoring one of the best threat stats pre-soft-cap then the glyph slots are being burned for no reason when they could have 3 survival glyphs instead and make the threat back up by being expertise capped; it's all a question of balance in the right places.