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Lanore
12-29-2009, 02:16 PM
As most of you I have been having a blast with the new LFG system. It has given me an excuse to finish leveling my shaman and in a fun way.. plus I'm getting Triumph Badges before level 80! Bonus.

Most of the groups have been really great people... even if they aren't geared, they have known (mostly) what to do and how to finish an instance.

Last night I zoned into a group that was already in progress in HoS.. they had only downed 2 trash mobs and they were stalling. I'm there to help so I really don't care.. i'm gonna have fun. The healer is a pally with 8500mana at lev 77 and can't heal (obviously not her main spec) and the tank dies on the second trash pull cuz she is oom. Tank leaves and one of the dps leaves. The pally says she has a friend she can invite that is lev 80 and can tank it for us... I suggest she go dps and find a healer via LFG as it's obvious she doesn't have heal gear. (she was wearing mostly str gear while healing and I'm honestly trying to be helpful) She thinks this is a good idea, invites her friend (level 80 DK with 16k hp in Frost), switches to ret spec, and queues us up to find a healer. All is looking better..

Then I ask her why she is still wearing her sword and board set in Ret spec... I get "leave me alone" her DK friend starts in on me with "she.has.too.80s.she.knows.how.to.play" (actual way he typed).

Now at this point I'd like to say, i have been a noob in this game (5 years ago, but i was at one point a serious noob) and I love tankspot because people can ask the nubest questions and get serious (non-troll) responses that are helpful. I like to think that I have helped my share of nubs along in the game, so I think I can help this one too.

Me: Try equiping a 2H anything, put on SoCommand, and watch your dps go up.
Pally: My dps is fine. (pause) And I don't have a 2H weapon
Me: Have you done the Amplitheatre quest in Zul'Drak?
Pally: No.
Me: Grab two of your lev 80 friends and go complete it. It has a great 2H reward that will take you to 80 easily. Plus it's easy XP.
Pally: My dps is fine. Leave me alone.
DK : Leave.her.alone.she.knows.her.class.You.should.see .her.gear.on.her.main.

At this point i realize I will be unable to help her. So I suggest a couple sites/guides (I have a pally that has cleared ICC as ret) and I shut up.

We wipe at the first boss and the group falls apart. DK continued his overpunctuated rambling and the pally did a steady 500dps with her one hand axe and spell power shield while my lev 77 shaman was cranking 1800-2k (gotta love lava burst).

What could I do? I honestly wanted to be helpful, but i obviously came across as an elitist jerk. I made no mention of the fact that I have 2 lev 80s that are pushing over 2800 gear score, nor did I taunt that I have been playing for 5 years. I was just giving some much needed advice. I never LOL'd nor did I leave them hanging. Yet my advice was taken as an attack. Has anyone been successful giving advice to nubs in PuGs? Or is it a lost cause?

Guess you can't get thru to everyone. It was honestly entertaining for me to be in the group. I love watching people learn (guess i shoulda been a shrink). I'm looking forward to queueing up again tonight to see who i get grouped with.

Tazlex
12-29-2009, 02:28 PM
Not everyone will get it and not everyone wants to be able to be the best at what they do. Just facts and we have to deal with this. Sadly this can result in dungeons/raids not getting completed and no one wanting to come in on a half done instance.

Usually try to suggest something helpful at first. If they refuse the help try not to be persistent. Intentions are good, but there can also be unknown factors to their stubbornness. Whether bad day at work or whatever and they don't catch what you are trying to do. Not trying to make excuses or ramble on to much. Usually can try helping once and just leave it at that if they refuse.

Eisen
12-29-2009, 02:42 PM
I've honestly given up trying to help most of the time in situations like this. If the person says something like "I wish I could do better" or ask questions, I'll go out of my way to be friendly and helpful. But most of the time I find advice is unlooked for, unwanted...and above all else unheeded. There are too many people like the ones Lanore met that just don't care and will do whatever they want. Just grin and bear it, and make a note to put them on your ignore list.

I ended up taking a 4 month hiatus from WoW because of this sort of thing. My guild leader's kid was a dps, geared better than anyone else in the guild..and did 800 dps at his best when other people with far lower gear were pushing 2k and more. My wife and I both tried to offer suggestions; later my wife pretty much just called the guild leader on his favoritism and letting certain players get carried through content (the son wasn't the only one like this, just the worst). For that she got /gkicked, and I got 5 ingame mails (took him that many to say everything he wanted) about how I need to keep my woman in line (direct quote). Needless to say I gquit a second later. It all blew up, I got mad, stopped playing.

Lanore
12-29-2009, 03:36 PM
I think i'll just keep my mouth shut and enjoy the show from here out. I'm gonna start keeping a log of the strange things I see tho.

This will have to be my first entry....

dotOrion
12-30-2009, 01:04 AM
most of the time I find advice is unlooked for [...] There are too many people [...] that just don't care and will do whatever they want.

This, sadly.

But yeah .. sometimes there are people willing to learn :) ... once in a blue moon .. :p

PatrikL
12-30-2009, 08:19 AM
I only give advice if it's asked for because of situations like the one you have described. Well mostly only then I should say. Ran ICC10 with a pug about a week ago and after wiping like 7 times on Lady Deathwhisper (beeing overrun by loose adds) I had a look at one of the tanks and to my surprise he (DK tank) had found a new favourite spec: Blood DW. After a while I managed to convince him he should go dps instead and I took over his part instead. What strikes me as funny is that even though I thought I made him understand how impossible that combination is (and he was doing like 1k dps as tank) I saw him today in VoA with the same spec. Well no he had changed it slightly so he now had 5/5/5 at least but he was still swinging two swords and doing tops 1.2k...

Bashal
12-30-2009, 08:30 AM
I only give advice if it's asked for

^ This.

Most people who are that unaware of how to play a class either (a) don't care or (b) know so little, and get so much flack/trolling from people that they can have a hard time telling good advice from bad.

Bovinity
12-30-2009, 08:44 AM
All too often when I've offered advice in the past I generally get lectures from the player in question laden with "I have a life, I can't dedicate every day to a game." excuses or they lash out with delusions about how they're awesome and everyone else in the group is terrible or I get in unwinnable arguments about how their "friend who is the best player in the game" does it this way and that 1 + 1 = 11 because that mystery friend said so.

And then there's folks that just don't care. I have nothing against those people, either. They play their own way to have fun. I only object when folks with that mentality start expecting raid slots with that attitude and thinking the other 24 people should let them just float along because it's their $15 and they should play their way.

As was said before, there's just nothing you can do unless the person in question wants to learn and asks. People can just be so astoundingly stubborn sometimes.

amilo
12-30-2009, 01:40 PM
At the risk of sounding like an elitist prick, a lot of people are idiots. Some people can't tell helpful advice from trolling, and some are so arrogant and proud of themselves, they can't dare to take advice from someone else. I never offer advice on a class I don't play unless I'm absolutely sure its 100% accurate, and I usually leave groups when several people are that arrogant/ignorant. Yes I could spend several minuets explaining that I'm not a troll and I'm actually trying to be helpful and not a jerk, but I don't find it worth it anymore. I'll encounter hundreds, if not thousands of people through the random dungeon finder, some will be good, some not.

Arterius
12-30-2009, 09:22 PM
And then there's folks that just don't care. I have nothing against those people, either. They play their own way to have fun. I only object when folks with that mentality start expecting raid slots with that attitude and thinking the other 24 people should let them just float along because it's their $15 and they should play their way.

As was said before, there's just nothing you can do unless the person in question wants to learn and asks. People can just be so astoundingly stubborn sometimes.

qft. The other day I was in a UK with a DPS Warrior specced Arms and dual wielding 1h Maces in full PVP gear. I tried to tell him about his flawed gear/spec but he didn't care. It's your $15 a month and if you want to solo dailies as that spec go right ahead, but it annoys me when you're a liability in my group because you want to be an idiot.

The random is pretty much a roulette. Some days I get awesome groups(although in pure random pugs I'm almost always ahead of at least one of the DPS-ers, but I don't care about that too much unless it's an ICC 5 man)and other days it's just dreadful.

Proletaria
12-30-2009, 11:36 PM
Random groups are random. As someone else mentioned, some people just don't want to know, and really don't care about how ineffective they are.

Take it in stride, and don't be afriad to just leave when a group looks that hopeless. In my experience there are more players out there who do at-least a passable job at their role than those who completely fail without remorse.

Kazeyonoma
12-31-2009, 06:25 AM
Sadly you can't help those who don't want to be helped.


Moving this to the Off-Topic forum btw.

Penlowe
01-01-2010, 07:22 AM
I'll add one tidbit ask them if they want advice and offer to give it after the run. Timing is everything, in between trash & a boss is hardly the time to stop, grab paper and write down the name of some quest, website or armor piece. Tempering what you say with something positive goes even further.

"Hey, I know I'm not the greatest shammy ever, this is my third alt and I'm still learning but I've played a pally tank for two years. If you want some tips I'd be happy to stay grouped when we are done and point you at a couple things".

the27thvoice
01-01-2010, 11:54 PM
I generally give up helping people when they start defending their performance with a top level main. If they suck on one character they generally suck on all characters (I find that good players will do good on all their alts).
It's an attitude thing, and you can't teach attitude.

That said, some people do take advice and constructive criticism really well, good ones may discuss things with you to learn more, and the best of them will explain what they are trying to do, maybe even give you an idea or two you haven't thought about yet.

Nashiira
01-03-2010, 01:37 AM
I was recently running an alt through normal Culling of Stratholme. I hadn't inspected the DK tank but just based on the graphics I recognized from his gear there was basically nothing he needed in this instance and assumed he either accidentally queued up for normal or was being helpful.

I thanked him for it, especially with the other players we had in the group being mediocre at best. He told me that he had just come back to the game after a 3-4 month hiatus and was using the instance as practice since frost couldn't hold any threat now. This was news to me because I am a frost tank on my main and unless outgeared I typically hold things rather well. I told him to stick around after the run and I would help him out.

After inspecting his gear and talents I had pages upon pages of suggestions for him but after a very short time he didn't want to hear any more. Hopefully he heeded at least some advice (like how one doesn't need to match socket colors for gems to work). I wish I could remember his name so I could check back on his progress.

Swam
01-03-2010, 04:45 PM
I generally give up helping people when they start defending their performance with a top level main. If they suck on one character they generally suck on all characters (I find that good players will do good on all their alts).
It's an attitude thing, and you can't teach attitude.

That said, some people do take advice and constructive criticism really well, good ones may discuss things with you to learn more, and the best of them will explain what they are trying to do, maybe even give you an idea or two you haven't thought about yet.
I like this. I have An 80 Warrior tank/dps. Dk tank/dps. And Disc pve/pvp priest. My dk tanks 10 and 25 icc, my priest heals 10/25 icc and my warrior is on the sidelines for now due to no time and having 3 top lvl toons gemmed and enchanted for top lvl content is expensive. I like to run heroics as speed runs on all toons to keep sharp and frequently get compliments. I think it is true that if you have skill with one toon you can do well with several fairly easy.

woodyman
01-04-2010, 08:32 AM
i had something like this in pos hc. A dps warr with all greens and blues.
im arms warr pullin a steady 4k dps but i didnt drag numbers into it i just politely pointed out that there is a lot he could do to get some half decent gear before coming to pos hc.

it was a friend of a friend so didnt wanna be too harsh
they didnt seem to really care so i thought what the hell its a good group so we will judt drag him through.
Tyranical beheader drops ive already got it so i dont care....

player selects disenchant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there really is no helping some people

Blue
01-04-2010, 10:23 AM
I usually say nothing, when I'm dps on my Warrior...just go in, and deal with whatever comes along, best I can.

The other day, I found myself typing things like, "watch for the pats, here...get them first". Or, "everyone but tank, stay away from the dwarf who's whirlwinding, or die!"

No one said anything, but they followed my advice! So, we get to the end, and the tank actually thanks me for the pointers, and help! I said, "I kinda just thought it was a new place for you, so hoped you didn't mind. You did really well, except for that one spot, where you grouped the fire elementals at the top of stairs, instead of the bottom. But, even then, you kept your cool, when it aggroed another four mobs. Most people, who are new to the instance, will either wipe at that point, or have one or two deaths, at least, due to the mobs exploding!"

For reference, this was normal HOL, and I was the only level 80 in the group. It had started kinda "rocky", with a couple of the dps telling this tank she should be level 80, and a bunch of other misinformed crap. They even asked me to tank, and I told them I don't tank pugs, and they should be thankful they had one that was willing to do it.

Overall, it was a delightful run, because I got to be of help to an aspiring tank. I only hope that she continues, because she showed real awareness, and had good skills.

Also, it was a good lesson, for me, in patience, and adapting my attacks, so as to not pull aggro--which was not easy, in light of the difference in gear, and all.

HarassMe
01-04-2010, 03:48 PM
some people are just stupid.

i found that once i accepted this fact, it made things a LOT easier.

Me - hey bud, we're about to start, do you want to switch specs?
Them - I can tank in arms spec, i have platemail and a shield.
Me - oh... wow... i'm really sorry.
Them - Sorry for what?
Me - well... you're stupid, that must be really hard on your family...

Molle
01-06-2010, 06:26 AM
H CoT - Daily random
1 warrior tank (me)
2 non-englishspeaking dpsers
1 avarage healer
1 Hyperactive Retardin spamming the chat

Now we start the event, the pally clearly doesnt have a clue about what is going on but just telling us to move on

Pally - "come on lets go, where are baddies"
Me - "Gotta wait for arthas to stop smalltalking"
Pally - "then kick him! its a timed run"
Me - "Uh...arthas isnt in party"

Then some mobs spawn and he starts wacking at them.
I notice he has quite low dps 1k but i dont mind i just wanna get it over with.

However he keeps pulling agro from me and i fail to understand why, im gazillions of tps away from him.... then.... i realise that he actually thinks that taunts are a part of his rotation :confused:

Me - "uh you do realise that its kinda annoying for me that you are taunting mobs constantly, its not really a damaging ability so theres no reason to throw it"

Pally - "I dont have taunt spell"

Me - "Its Hand of Reckoning"

Pally - "Lol dont you know english reckoning = Destroy stuff, it is dps"

Me - "......."

I just couldnt stop laughing so i just shut up and tanked it through, took it as practice which always can keep you sharp

Eravian
01-06-2010, 06:36 AM
Pally - "Lol dont you know english reckoning = Destroy stuff, it is dps"


lol... now THAT is epic.

Blue
01-07-2010, 12:12 PM
Here's one that has me scratching my head, a bit. I get DTK Heroic, on my Shadow Priest, and I look at the group. Instead of the usual mix of gear scores and all, I see no one else at lower than 240, (or, roughly 5k--wow heroes score). My priest is 235, so I'm the "low man on the totem pole", so to speak.

Well, it soon becomes apparent that this group is just having a good time, as the tank, a Druid bear, types a sort of apology to me, while tanking a boss, about the healer taking off his gear, because he's "so bored", and dpsing! I don't know what to say to that, as I'm frantically trying to get in a dot or two, before anything dies, and my dps is around 1.6k. As some of you may know, a shadow priest can do very well, at dps, but needs the fight to be a bit longer than 10-20 seconds, in order to do so!! I generally get anywhere from 2k to 3.2k, depending on how much healing, or dispells I have to use, on the group, among other variables.

Ok, so I'm not too concerned, as everyone's moving right along. We get to the boss that has mobs coming down the stairs, while the tank has to pick up other mobs coming from hallways. I choose to help the tank, who says, "Thanks, Hoss, but I don't need any help." At this point, I'm running back and forth between the stairs and the tank, throwing damage anywhere I can...

This goes on throughout, until the end, when I notice my heal meter has me down as the only heals!! I was healer in there, while specced in Shadow, which only has healing, in the form of buffs from dot spells (unless I use some limited heal spells, which I only bother with, in times of group stress)!! I "heal" this way at around 350hps, generally.

I told them that was fun, but, really, if they wanted me to heal, they should have let me switch over to my Discipline spec!

By the way, I looked at the "healer's" dps, and he was #1 (Pally)...he didn't just "take off" his gear, he'd re-specced to his other tree!

Jeez, I know DTK isn't that hard, but, it shouldn't be so easy that a healer isn't even needed for it!! HAH!!

defence
01-08-2010, 10:14 AM
Haha, don't you know? healers are not needed anymore. I found this out when tanking H ToC. Healer and a dps dies in second phase of the dark knight. We ended up winning anyways (I was the last alive with 50% health. Thank you shield wall, last stand, lifebloom/ER combo and health injection kit)

Blue
01-08-2010, 03:14 PM
Haha, don't you know? healers are not needed anymore. I found this out when tanking H ToC. Healer and a dps dies in second phase of the dark knight. We ended up winning anyways (I was the last alive with 50% health. Thank you shield wall, last stand, lifebloom/ER combo and health injection kit)

Hah, well, now that you mention it, that same thing has happened to me, but killing BK, while I'm at less than 5%, although giving the illusion of epicness, is a bit too close for comfort, especially since the only "trick" I had left was my rocket boots!:p

Eisen
01-08-2010, 04:51 PM
Haha, don't you know? healers are not needed anymore. I found this out when tanking H ToC. Healer and a dps dies in second phase of the dark knight. We ended up winning anyways (I was the last alive with 50% health. Thank you shield wall, last stand, lifebloom/ER combo and health injection kit)

True story.

Was in HHoS this morning with the wife, getting her her daily frosts. I'm on as my tank, she's a mage, The rest of the party are random consisting of a DK, hunter, and Resto Druid.

We get up to the circular room right before where Sjonnir is and I'm clearing the trash. I pull two groups of dorfs and a giant. The healer seemed competent and EXTREMELY geared in the earlier pulls; I'm not worried.

After a little bit I realize three things: 1) my health is slowly, but steadily dropping; 2) This is because no heals are coming in; 3) Wait a minute, who's casting Hurricane? We don't have a Boomkin....oh.

Yup, the healer got bored and was DPSing the entire fight. I mean I'm glad I'm that good a tank and all but...

Rominoodle
01-11-2010, 08:38 AM
You know, I really don't mind if somebody actually gives a good piece of advice...it's when you get idiots that THINK they know everything. On one of my alts, a 75 warlock I have been affliction since level 10, and decided to give destruction a try. It was fun and I was putting out about 1100 dps as opposed to my 800 as affliction. Had a pug in my group who apparentley noticed the rotation I was using, and he calmly said, hey try adding this spell into your rotation right after this one..it speeds up your cast time and you'll see a rise in dps...So I did and sure enough my dps jumped quite a bit. He said that he had a destro lock in an togc / icc raiding guild and was just offering his advice if i wanted to take it. Then there's people that say, OMG STOP CRITTING YOU PULL AGGRO FROM ME...yeah sure, i'll turn the crit button off....>.<

infared
01-11-2010, 04:38 PM
i have a hunter m8 who always runs randoms with me, im tank.
he MD's people, i stand there, its funny trust me

Eisen
01-11-2010, 04:53 PM
i have a hunter m8 who always runs randoms with me, im tank.
he MD's people, i stand there, its funny trust me

I had one group where we were so bored the hunter MD'd and the rogue TotT'd the healer at the same time, then unloaded on mobs to see if they could get teh healer to pull aggro off me.

Not even close of course, but it was funny watching the poor tree pop out an acorn when he saw his threat meter jump.

Swam
01-11-2010, 10:52 PM
i have a hunter m8 who always runs randoms with me, im tank.
he MD's people, i stand there, its funny trust me

If your hunter is not md'ing to the other players hes doing it wrong

Nez
01-12-2010, 09:26 AM
If your hunter is not md'ing to the other players hes doing it wrong
/win

It really livens up a raid when the rogues and hunters go to war with each other with ToT and MD to see who can get each other killed lol.

My funnest thing to do in Pugs now is too see how big a pull I can do and live when I'm on my warrior.