PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Getting two-shot in ICC 25



Crittershift
12-28-2009, 10:11 PM
A few weeks before 3.3 launched, I had noticed that one of our DK tanks seemed to be getting hit a lot harder in TOC 25 than the rest of the tanks in the guild. We had suggested some other options to try regarding spec and gear, but the message didn't seem to get across. Now that we are doing ICC 25, it seems like it is becoming more of an issue now than before 3.3. We wiped several times during Lord Marrowgar the day 3.3 launched due to him dying, receiveing battle rez's, then dying again a few minutes later (frustrating when we got him to 8%). During this fight, he had a dedicated Holy Priest healing him with me (Resto Druid) keeping 3 HoTs on him at all times, and when the healers realized that he was getting 2-shot, the resto Shaman kept Earth Shield up on him as well as assisting with heals.

Now that it's being known across the guild that this is a problem, we have put more pressure on him changing whatever is not working. We had him re-gem/enchant his gear and change his spec, hoping that this would solve the problem. He seems to have taken the suggestions for re-gems/enchants and applied them to his gear, but as far as the spec goes, he keeps reverting back to what he originally started out with. His reasoning for that has been this:



"Here is where I got an idea for what i wanted to spec for Blood tanking.
Death Knight Builds - WOW Death Knight talent guide (http://deathknightbuilds.com/)

Self-Healing Spec
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#vZgHDiigB_7vO,dSYOe3,10192 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#vZgHDiigB_7vO,dSYOe3,10192)

Generic Blood Tank
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#Y0GpXWLpX_wC1,dSYOe3,10192 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#Y0GpXWLpX_wC1,dSYOe3,10192)

I took ideas from multiple specs. I like a mix between a general tank spec and self healing spec.

After all my research on all the spec i looked at I chose:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Gurubashi&n=Exhumed&group=2)

My threat is fine due to my good gear and choice in DPS attributes, but due to the lack of reliable heals and the overall need for more utility I chose my spec.

1. Q:"Leave healing to the healers!"
A: If I do I and others would drop a lot more.
Rune tap heals me for 10-11k fully raid buffed.
Heals Jeebus for 8-9 k fully buffed.
I have used this in multiple runs and it has bought the healers some time to get him back up. Mark of Blood is a GREAT cooldown for a main tank and off-tank. I can save the main tank from taking too much dmg. It heals the MT for 4% of their life every time they are hit for 20 hits (3 min cooldown). It is 1 talent point, why wouldn't you spec it lawl.

2. Q:"You don't have enough points in threat causing abilities."
A: Healing causes threat... plus I have no problem holding my target... Jeebus and others can attest to this. When we were fighting Saurfang he was telling me I needed to back off a little so he could keep the threat. My single target threat is dangerous.. even before I got my new weapon.

3. Q: "Leave the weapons to DPS."
A: Where do I get my threat as a DK... Damage.. what types of things am I supposed to be speccing in... multipliers for DPS (also mitigation I know...).

Also, a better weapon gives me more stam and str which in turn gives me more survivability. (25% str = Parry rating for DK's [Forceful Deflection])

4. Q:"Exhumed, you are a pain to heal!"
A: Death Knights, especially Blood is very health dependent. I don't have a shield and therefore I don't have block. ICC = 20% dodge is gone.. now I only have 5% dodge. Parry is my only source of avoidance which gets DR'd quickly. So I am just a pool of health with a dash of parry. Which sucks balls vs. Shield totters.

So before you criticize, realize that I have applied this in game. Just reading what something "does" doesn't mean it will be effective or ineffective."


His armory link is: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gurubashi&cn=Exhumed&gn=Snakes+on+a+Plainstrider)

With those changes, he still seems to be getting hit hard in ICC. I was just wondering if there was anything we could do to get him up to par.

Svartsot
12-29-2009, 07:38 AM
Looks like he could need to level up his professions so that they get up on par with what they should be and so. Aswell as using the pvp shoulder enchant for 10.000 honor or the exalted Sons of Hodir one. And a 275 health to chest would be better as far as i know for a chest enchant if he wants hp. And as he doesnt seem to have any threat problems he could change the sigil he have on armory to a tanking one rather than using a dps one.

Aswell as changing his glove enchant to 240 armor or 18 stamina. It also seems like for now that he probably havnt had the time to gem and enchant his cloak? Which should get armor enchant and like a 30 stam gem in those cases. For the other parts i can't say all that much as i am not really that home at death knight tanking speccs or so, but thats what i noticed of the armory look really.

Tekz08
12-29-2009, 07:56 AM
... How many tanks are you using in ICC25 Marrowgar?

Because in the situation you've described - either your dedicated healer is sufficiently undergeared or is just bad at healing... or you're using less than three tanks on Marrowgar.

... Or the tanks are not doing their job of stacking on each other well and he's eating full saber lashes because of it.

His gear is just fine for ICC25 and he shouldn't be getting two-shot unless one of the things above is happening.

Some things I would suggest...

Replace Virulence with Insolence
Enchant the cloak with +225 armor
Enchant the bracers with either a +18 stam armor kit or +armor
Enchant shoulders with +30 stam PvP enchant

All minor changes. Besides that he looks fine and shouldn't be having large problems tanking ICC. Even his spec isn't bad. It's very similar to what I use. DG CD reduction isn't really necessary in my mind but meh...


---

I'd also like to note that if he wrote the italicized text above - he's doing it right, and you're wrong for telling him different. Take the pressure off of him and focus it on your strategy (two tanks?) or focus it on your healers.

Reev
12-29-2009, 08:04 AM
Yeah, looking at his gear, I'd say it's not his gearing that is causing the deaths. There are minor improvements to be made, but nothing that's a big deal. On 25 man, if he's using an armor potion, Marrowgar saberlashes for ~15k when not blocked, which is what he'd be getting hit for. It would take 3-4 of those with 0 heals to kill him, if all the tanks are stacked correctly and not standing in the fire. So yeah, I'd check what the positioning it, check up on the healing, and make sure he's using armor potions, because he should be fine to tank Marrowgar.

Oh, also make sure he's using a cooldown every tanking phase. There are no big spike damage moments in this fight and the tanking phases are spread out sufficiently to enable the use of cooldowns very often.

Rominoodle
12-29-2009, 08:28 AM
Is it just me, or is his dodge low for a DK? Even with the 20% dodge debuff, I am sitting at 9% dodge (that includes my libram) but he is at literally 0% in there. If he is dying on marrowgar i have to agree with the above posters that it's either a healer fault or the tanks aren't doing the fight properly. His frost spec doesn't have any points into anticipation, due to going further into the blood tree, which he wouldn't have to like another above poster said if he just leveled his professions. He also has a gem for parry and stam so he can get a +6 stam bonus?....../vomit.

Crittershift
12-29-2009, 10:26 AM
Thank you all for your input. During that fight, we had 3 tanks (2 pallys and himself) and 6 healers (2 shamans, a priest, a druid, and 2 pallys). Each tank had a dedicated healer and 3 raid healers, with each of them spot healing the tanks if needed. It didn't seem like the healers were having problems healing their tanks, but I will check again to be sure that wasn't an issue. They are using indestructible potions during the fight.

Thanks again. I know I am not a tank so I wanted tanks outside of our guilds opinions so that I can better understand the situation, I appreciate it.

Toushiro
12-29-2009, 10:41 AM
he really needs to get more dodge, in my tank set on my DK I have 6-7% dodge in ICC.

Jaeden
12-29-2009, 10:47 AM
He has some odd choices in his spec, taking some talents that are pvp or dps oriented.

My room mate blood tanks and we both obsess on the EJ best builds so here is what he uses including glyphs:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Malfurion&n=Dabumortis&group=1)

He has JC of one, that needs to be improved ;) His other pieces that are just stam without any mitigation or avoidance, like his ring, he should look at getting additional stats for that slot.

If you are looking to meet a socket requirement to take advantage of another stat, parry would not be my choice ;)

PatrikL
01-07-2010, 08:42 AM
Well the first thing that stands out for me when looking at his spec is that he has skipped out on Anticipation (5/5 gives 5% dodge), which is why his dodge is so low.

All in all I think its a very odd spec I think. Although he says he doesnt have a threat problem he has skipped out on several high threat talents. I am also confused why one wouldnt go deep enough in one of the trees to get the deeper abilities but thats more of a general thought.

Bashal
01-07-2010, 08:52 AM
Yep, his spec is odd.

Jaeden
01-07-2010, 10:18 AM
I guess I'll be the bad guy.

He's doing it wrong.

Tekz08
01-11-2010, 12:53 PM
All of you saying he's bad for not picking up Anticipation... you're looking at the wrong spec. -_-

Best guess is that his blood spec is his tanking and his Frost is a PvP spec. His blood spec is more than appropriate.

PatrikL
01-12-2010, 08:20 AM
All of you saying he's bad for not picking up Anticipation... you're looking at the wrong spec. -_-

Best guess is that his blood spec is his tanking and his Frost is a PvP spec. His blood spec is more than appropriate.

No he has changed it now, the blood spec (also the one referenced in the original question) did not have any points in Anticipation before.

Felycitas
01-14-2010, 02:17 AM
First... you need to assess the exact reason he's dying via combat logs. This also can give you ammunition for spec changes (IE: how much is he overhealing for (that's the problem with blood tanking)).

Second... you need to focus on the standards you want for the guild. If you want him using a cookie cutter build, and he doesn't do it, then you need to sit him out for another tank that follows instructions. On the flip side, don't be upset if he decides to find another guild. If you'd rather bring the player and not the class.. then this is a cross you'll have to bear.

Get some combat logs and work together to figure out a solution. Marrowgar is a HARD fight to heal.. it may not be his fault. Ever since Icebound Fortitude was taken from 1 minute to 2.. I've felt squishy.

Fledern
01-14-2010, 03:49 AM
Are you using that tactic where everybody is bunched up? In that case the tanks will be getting fires every 2 secs and for a tank with even the slightest latency that's an extra fire tick damage of around 10K. Also make sure the tanks are really stacked on top of each other. It's easy to get seperated if the tanks are getting fires every 2 sec and eat a huge saber lash.

Otherwise, i completely symphatise with his self-healing spec. Runetap & mark of blood has saved me many times and on a fight like marrowgarr, it's great if the healers get impaled (we did get an unfortunate bone spike turn once where 3 healers ended up on spikes)

Espillion
01-14-2010, 07:32 AM
Okay if health is not the problem, the physical mitigation is.

Avoidance is one thing and the health is another but if your last line of survival ain't up to par - which is your armor rating - odds are your DK tank, even with cooldown blowing every second shot, won't be able to handle the main brunt. The lashes are painful on the healers, specially on whether they get impaled.

The main brunt of the damage will be the tanks rather than the raid itself - if one healer lacks it, it's pretty hard to pick up slack in the short timeframe and tanks will die shortly if they don't have the ball on awareness.

Best thing I would suggest is avoidance, stamina and get the best armor they can get their hands on as the damage will be fairly significant. 45k raid-buffed health will see them able to take roughly 3 lashes.