PDA

View Full Version : Warrior 3/3 Deep Wounds VS 3/3 Focus Rage



Foxlarocks
12-28-2009, 09:45 PM
I am stuck between which one is "better"...
What are your opinions?
Does anyone have data?

Eisen
12-28-2009, 11:15 PM
I've always taken both, to be honest. reducing the rage cost of bloody near everything is very nice, and deep wounds+thunderclap/shockwave crits=a continuous stream of aggro.

Aggathon
12-29-2009, 03:33 AM
the question is really 5/5 shield block versus 2/5 shield block and 3/3 focused rage, and imo 3/3 focused rage wins. Always get 3/3 deep wounds.

Airowird
12-29-2009, 05:29 AM
IF I have to choose: Deep Wounds.

Simply because it easily counts as 10% of my total threat and let's face it, unless you're doing heroics with trigger-happy AoE classes(at which point you have bigger problems than rage), you don't really need that much rage reduction nowadays.

Satorri
12-29-2009, 05:35 AM
Focused Rage is nice, but in a near-infinite rage situation in raid tanking you'll find it's pretty limited in value for threat. However in the world of efficiency vs generation, Shield Block Spec now gives you Rage for Block/Dodge/Parry which will particularly add up to the point where you don't need cheaper moves because you're generating so much threat.

I like Focused Rage for OT'ing or 5-mans, situations where you will not be flushed with Rage.

That said, both talents are rage generation/efficiency items and your threat gains will be primarily through it allowing you to used more moves or not. Deep Wounds is just flat out threat, and for that purpose, Impale+Deep Wounds is just too delectable for a Prot warrior with all the passive +crit chance talents (and set bonuses if you have them).


In my current build (aimed more at 5-mans and not progression raid survivability) I have all 3 talents filled.

Scotteq
12-29-2009, 11:59 AM
As above - In my usual (threat) build, I take both; and for the reasons already stated.

Eisen
12-29-2009, 12:07 PM
Focused Rage is nice, but in a near-infinite rage situation in raid tanking you'll find it's pretty limited in value for threat.

This is very much true; however for aoe situations I still like to keep it, since I tend to roll my face on cleave and that eats rage like nothing.

I've heard good things from people about 5/5 shield spec, however in my personal experience even after the imporvements focused rage is more efficient.

Aggathon
12-29-2009, 02:46 PM
I have to agree with Eisen, I've tried the 5/5 shield spec 0/3 focused rage, and I found I was more rage starved and got less heroic strikes in because of it. Maybe it has to do with my playstyle and I micromanage the crap out of HS so I might get rage starved easier than others, but I've found focused rage to be far far more beneficial than 5/5 shield spec.

Papapaint
12-30-2009, 02:19 AM
I have to agree with Eisen, I've tried the 5/5 shield spec 0/3 focused rage, and I found I was more rage starved and got less heroic strikes in because of it. Maybe it has to do with my playstyle and I micromanage the crap out of HS so I might get rage starved easier than others, but I've found focused rage to be far far more beneficial than 5/5 shield spec.

I've found it something the opposite myself. It's probably just a playstyle thing, but I definitely prefer shield spec after trying a few runs either way. It's still kinda moot in ICC, where even Deathwhisper's adds give me a gazillion rage on their swings. I tank heroics in half dps gear, so I'm pretty rarely rage starved in there too.

Xianth
12-30-2009, 05:34 AM
I find I can always generate plenty of threat given enough rage to use my abilities constantly, even in a more defensive spec. So, it's focused rage for me to allow that to happen more often (and 5/5 shield). It also gives you flexibility to be useful in low rage situations too.

Besides, i'm the one running with imp demo so it's not like I'd have a choice if i wanted to anyway :p

Satorri
12-30-2009, 06:32 AM
Shield Spec and Focused Rage are a little situational for their relative values. We haven't really talked math though.

Focused Rage should be fairly consistent if you're going through a predictable proportion of moves, as each one will save you a little rage. If you're using every GCD on a threat ability, that's 120 rage per minute you'd save (though it doesn't quite work out like that thanks to SnB procs and the odd defensive move that is on the GCD).

To figure out how much that is, we'll say SnB is the only factor reducing it. If you're only using Shield Slam, Devastate, and Revenge for non-on-next-swing moves (excluding Tclap, Demo Shout, Shockwave, etc for simplicity), and we'll assume A.) you're mid-fight and B.) you never miss with these specials. We want to use Shield Slam when it's up, Revenge when it procs, and Devastate otherwise. Without SnB we'd use Shield Slam every 4th GCD. SnB will mean that the 3 moves in between (Rev/Dev) will each have a 30% chance to proc a free Shield Slam early. Let's just simplify it to say that we're using Shield Slam always on SnB, and on average once every 3 GCDs. 40 GCDs per minute, 13 free Shield Slams, and 27 Rev/Devs. That means 27 times you save 3 rage per minute, or 81 rage saved per minute. So the best possible case for Focused Rage would be 120 Rage per minute, in theory you may be able to do worse than 81 rage per minute, anecdotally I'd guess it's somewhere in the middle.

Shield Spec is more dependent on the situation. Every dodge/parry/block generates 5 rage. If you're up against one target swinging every 2.0 seconds, not in ICC, with say 25% dodge, 20% parry, and 20% block, you'll have 65% of the swings proc Shield Spec, or ~19.5 swings per minute, which would be 97.5 rage per minute. However, up that to swings every 1.5 seconds and that goes to 130 rage per minute. If you tank two things at once, each swinging every 2.0 seconds, suddenly this gives you 195 rage per minute.

The value of Shield spec also scales with your gear (though it is a little reduced in ICC with Chill of the Thrown), with the number of targets attacking you, with the speed at which avoidable/blockable attacks come, etc.

Eisen
12-30-2009, 06:50 AM
That's....some pretty convincing math.

Mind you between CotT and the fact I swear Blizz yanked block rating off everything in game post-Ulduar, I'm concerned that in Icecrown it might not work out that well. But I'm debating respeccing to give it a shot. Didn't seem to work that well the last time, but I've been having rage gen issues a lot lately.

Kazeyonoma
12-30-2009, 11:17 AM
But, satorri, you didn't include heroic strike usage, in which case if you're using a typical 1.6 speed weapon and have say, 90% heroic strike uptime, you're gonna have a much higher rage saved ratio for focused rage, but this devolves into a "saving rage for a rage dump?!" discussion. =P

Satorri
12-31-2009, 04:55 AM
Hmm, good point, it did not account for rage saved on HS or Cleave.

Hmmm, lemme see. It is a dump, so it is hard to account for really how much you'll save. In situations that are typical of raid tanking now, you may have more rage than you know what to do with and you'll dump on every cooldown. But that's the situation where efficiency is no longer terribly important. On the other hand, if you are in a lower rage situation you won't be dumping as much, how much will rage saved/generated increase your dumps (which in turn will be easier with Focused Rage because the dump will cost less...).

At least we can look at the extremes!

If you used HS on every weapon swing, with a 1.5 sec speed weapon (leaving out haste for now), that's 40 swings per minute. Assuming Imp Heroic strike as a baseline talent (since we're getting Impale), that is 12 rage without Focused Rage, 9 rage with. So, on HS spam, Focused Rage will add another 120 rage per minute saved.

To put it a different way, to maintain that HS spam without Focused Rage we'd need to generate a surplus of 480 rage per minute beyond what we need for our normal skill use. With Focused Rage we'd only need to generate 360. On HS that's a 25% reduction (12 => 9). If we looked at Cleave instead, note it will still only reduce the total by 120 since we're limited by the speed of our weapon. Cleave costs 20 rage, so to spam Cleave for a minute would take 800 surplus rage per minute and Focused Rage would knock that down to 680, a 15% savings.

So, if we consider a low rage situation, arbitrarily let's say we only generate 240 surplus rage per minute. Without Focused Rage that would support a HS every other swing, 20 per minute. With Focused Rage that would become 26.67 HS per minute, or a gain of ~6.7 HS per minute.

So, using those as benchmarks, consider how often you can use HS in the typical situations as that will give you a pretty good idea of what kind of rage excess you have.

I'm not going to dig much deeper on this, because it will open a can of worms that I would probably jump into and splash around in, involving rage generated, in proportion to gear, and how much you can really expect each to work out.


Here's something fun to think about though. In a near infinite rage situation, which is more valuable?

Focused Rage = smaller rage cost
Shield Spec = more rage generated and more block chance

If rage is never a concern, smaller costs is meaningless. More block chance is functional (regardless of how great you think block is, it is still a contributor), and in fact, more rage generation is not necessarily wasted. I haven't checked the Prot tests in a while, but usually the bonus rage generated gives additional threat. So long as you aren't pinned to 100 rage, every little bit of rage you squeeze in will pad your threat generated.

Kazeyonoma
12-31-2009, 06:20 AM
interesting indeed, i guess i'm used to having a certain "feel" for my rage, and I'd probably never drop focused rage, but functionally that may not be optimal, whoda thunk!

Kojiyama
12-31-2009, 06:36 AM
I get Shield Spec simply because with the buff to Critical Block, the survival value is decent and I rarely have rage issues either way.

The other advantage to Shield Spec is that it gives me rage in scenarios where I'm likely to run out, at the start of pulls or during strange sequences of events. Most of the cost savings from Focused Rage is simply going to be from spamming abilities when I'm getting hit and pegged at 100 rage constantly, so you can basically throw those cases out the window to an extent.

I'm sure both work out to be quite decent depending on your playstyle, but I prefer Shield Spec personally. Think it's a rotation/style thing more than anything.

As for the original question, Deep Wounds is miles better than both of them for TPS gains.

Kazeyonoma
12-31-2009, 01:00 PM
I haven't spec deep wounds in my tank spec since totc release and I wonder if its hindered my dps'ers. I haven't heard complaints but I do wonder if going back to 15/3/53 would be better.

Kojiyama
12-31-2009, 01:50 PM
As far as ideal theorycrafting numbers go, it appears that 3 points in Deep Wounds is worth roughly 1k TPS, and Deep Wounds + Impale is about 1.4k TPS total.

Our buffed crit rate is quite high in raids, and as on bosses Heroic Strikes cause most of our damage sources to be affected by Impale the net gain is pretty substantial.

(At least for me, each crit nets me about 920ish damage per Deep Wounds proc, and as it procs from basically everything including Damage Shield, it adds up pretty fast.)

Airowird
12-31-2009, 05:52 PM
Damage Shields can not crit anymore, thus can't proc DW.

But it does proc off everything else :)

Kojiyama
12-31-2009, 08:10 PM
Damage Shields can not crit anymore, thus can't proc DW.

But it does proc off everything else :)

When did they change that? Was it in 3.3? Wasn't long ago I saw combat logs with Damage Shield crits... (Although at a pretty low rate.)

Edit: Ah, I see the other thread that the fix to making it not proc effects seemed to ninja-disable it critting as well. Interesting. Doesn't change the value of Deep Wounds too much since Damage Shield was fairly minimal of a contribution, but good to know.

Airowird
01-01-2010, 03:14 AM
Yeah, it was mostly an AoE fix, because tanking e.g. whelps in Ony and having Deep Wounds run on all of em is not the intention of the ability :P

Kojiyama
01-01-2010, 06:37 AM
Yeah, it was mostly an AoE fix, because tanking e.g. whelps in Ony and having Deep Wounds run on all of em is not the intention of the ability :P

Well, it would explain why Warriors are getting rocked in AoE threat in 3.3... :P

Satorri
01-01-2010, 07:21 AM
I <3 Focused Rage, Shield Spec, and Deep Wounds!! I don't want to give any up! =(

Also, Shockwave and Tclap applying Deep Wounds makes me giggle on concept.

craggan
01-01-2010, 07:33 AM
I have tried both and I prefer focused rage.

The main difference is that by reducing the cost of your abilities, focus rage let you use them "earlier", for exemple when you begin a fight, it is better to use your SB when you have 17 rage than waiting to have 20 ...

Other thing is that we are not always facing infinite rage encounters ...

We have encounters with tank rotation ... that mean that we are not always the target of the boss and we only generate rage with our abilities, that mean that every point saved is more important
We have encounters like Jarraxus or Vezax with low rage generation where every rage point saved is also very important.
etc.
On the other side while multitanking, both are very usefull...

My question about threat would be "is deepwounds still interesting as we could get 3% more crit (expecially with devastate at 100 % damages) ?"

Eisen
01-01-2010, 09:09 AM
Well, it would explain why Warriors are getting rocked in AoE threat in 3.3... :P

No, that's Paladin+consecrate+undead=why do I even bother.

Airowird
01-01-2010, 05:58 PM
My question about threat would be "is deepwounds still interesting as we could get 3% more crit (expecially with devastate at 100 % damages) ?"If you're talking Deep Wounds vs Cruelty, I'ld say about twice the buck for your talent points by speccing Deep Wounds. Depends on your raid setup ofc, the more agi/crit raid buffs you have, the better DW is.

Kojiyama
01-01-2010, 06:54 PM
If you're talking Deep Wounds vs Cruelty, I'ld say about twice the buck for your talent points by speccing Deep Wounds. Depends on your raid setup ofc, the more agi/crit raid buffs you have, the better DW is.

Fully raid-buffed at the numbers I'm looking at, Deep Wounds should be between 3-4 times more effective per talent point in increasing TPS compared to Cruelty. The only talents better than Deep Wounds per point are Improved Defensive Stance and Vigilance.

For Shield Slam, for example, Deep Wounds is nearly a 10% increase in average damage per execute. 1% crit would be something like a 0.9% increase in average damage per execute. Cruelty is not a very good threat talent, honestly...

Agmar
01-01-2010, 10:24 PM
The (stealth) change to damage shield not being able to crit came a long time ago.

Shamefully, it was due to the pvp aspect of it. You could pop shield block and watch a rogue vaporize himself.

Papapaint
01-02-2010, 01:36 PM
The (stealth) change to damage shield not being able to crit came a long time ago.

Shamefully, it was due to the pvp aspect of it. You could pop shield block and watch a rogue vaporize himself.

Back in 3.0, when I was in mostly BIS Naxx gear, I was in the kitchen grabbing a soda when my roommate shouts out "yo you're about to get ganked!"

About 30 seconds later he says "uh... nevermind. You killed him. Somehow."

Checking the combat log, he got rocked by my damage shield. I'm guessing he was in mostly greens or some such, but it was still quite hi-larious.

Proletaria
01-03-2010, 05:00 PM
Anecdotal but, I haven't used FR on my warrior since the change to shield spec. Generally I haven't found rage starvation to be an issue because of it, and I think those 3 points are better spent in a lot of other places.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZVItrx0didczsGo)

That is my current spec.

Eisen
01-03-2010, 05:06 PM
I will say I moved to 5/5 shield spec myself to try it out. I'm still 3/3 FR as well but...well, I don't run out of rage most of the time. And that's blowing HS/Cleave on every swing. Some fights where I don't get hit often still cause rage issues, but that's to be expected.

Aggathon
01-04-2010, 12:57 PM
interesting indeed, i guess i'm used to having a certain "feel" for my rage, and I'd probably never drop focused rage, but functionally that may not be optimal, whoda thunk!

I think it really depends on your playstyle, and about 30% less procs (60-20 = 40, 40/60 = 2/3 ~ 30%) from shield spec in ICC also hinders shield spec's viability.

See with my playstyle, and especially with BQS which is known to be not the greatest threat generator, I am trying to keep up HS as much as possible. A lot of people will micro manage their rage and not HS unless about 40 or 50 rage. I personally end up micromanaging it around 30 to try and cut it as close as possible and get the most threat as I can. In situations where I get close to rage starved, I'm both able to HS more and more often, and if I get a lucky (or in this case possibly unlucky) passive streak(I know what you're thinking, all that time you're gaining rage from SS, but it just doesn't FEEL like that to me), I can devastate/revenge/shield slam faster if I've used up all my rage, at least that's how it feels. When I went 5/5 shield spec 0/3 focused rage, I felt like I was rage starved a LOT more than with 2/5 shield spec and 3/3 focused rage.

Where are you guys taking the other point out of to get 3/3 FR, 5/5 SS, and 3/3 DW? I can see 5/5 SS and 2/3FR if you take the points out of imp disciplines, but I can't imagine taking a point out of something else in the tree to finish out FR.

Eisen
01-04-2010, 01:16 PM
Where are you guys taking the other point out of to get 3/3 FR, 5/5 SS, and 3/3 DW? I can see 5/5 SS and 2/3FR if you take the points out of imp disciplines, but I can't imagine taking a point out of something else in the tree to finish out FR.

Well you can take a look for yourself, but I only have 1/2 in Imp disciplines.

Kazeyonoma
01-04-2010, 01:18 PM
0/2 improved revenge Agg.

Aggathon
01-04-2010, 01:25 PM
0/2 improved revenge Agg.

Ah, I guess that makes sense to an extent, but it seems like unless you are glyphing for devastate that 2/2 or even 1/2 imp revenge would be more threat than 3/3 FR over 2/3 FR. That's just a gut estimate though, I have precisely zero numbers to back that up. But if you're glyphing for devastate then ya, that makes complete sense, especially since if you're doing this you're probably going for max threat anyways, which involves glyph of devastate.

Kojiyama
01-04-2010, 01:31 PM
Oddly enough, the most 'useless' threat talent to drop is Gag Order numerically-speaking, if you don't Glyph Devastate. However not doing that is a massive TPS loss so I wouldn't really recommend it.

Glyphing Devastate and dropping Imp Revenge is a pretty viable thing to do.

Insahnity
01-04-2010, 01:51 PM
No, that's Paladin+consecrate+undead+instacast Holy Wrath on TCish CD=why do I even bother.

Fixed. And THAT is what I giggle at, seeing the stunned mobs.

Simple question here, but isn't it either:
1) If you need more rage, pull moar, or
2) Go tank something bigger and get smacked harder, or
3) Get off your arse and start doing more dps?

Also, you can do things to take more damage, like not throw out demo shout, wear lolbrewfest trinkets instead of black heart, etc.? It's a small change but I find it helps resource starvation, and not just for warriors, but paladins and bears as well (although I have never been rage starved as a bear since level 70 and undergeared).

Eisen
01-04-2010, 03:49 PM
Ah, I guess that makes sense to an extent, but it seems like unless you are glyphing for devastate that 2/2 or even 1/2 imp revenge would be more threat than 3/3 FR over 2/3 FR. That's just a gut estimate though, I have precisely zero numbers to back that up. But if you're glyphing for devastate then ya, that makes complete sense, especially since if you're doing this you're probably going for max threat anyways, which involves glyph of devastate.

I'm glyphed for Devestate. Shoulda included that.

I've seen a gain in TPS since removing Rev from my rotation and focusing on Devastate; also it makes the priority list simpler. Rage loss is a bigger problem, but that's why I have FR.


@Insahnity: I don't recommend anything that provides more of a risk to your staying up just to get more rage. Unless you're really, really overgeared.

Kojiyama
01-04-2010, 05:27 PM
Insahnity, rage is honestly not the problem. The problem is that Shockwave and Thunder Clap are both on cooldowns and Cleaves, even when glyphed, only hits 3 targets.

There is really not any way to keep up with the sustained AoE threat of Paladins with Thunder Clap alone. It's often possible to get initial aggro, but once Shockwave has disappeared enough into the past, Warriors will start losing targets incrementally. Once you lose them, you won't ever get them back as you won't even have the advantage of Damage Shield threat in that case.

Trying to do acrobatics to circumvent the realities of this is a lost cause. Just let the Paladin tank it. :P

uglybbtoo
01-04-2010, 06:11 PM
You can easily out threat a paladin on aoe tanking STOP CLEAVING tab through the targets and hit the bloody things with your high threat attacks. The pally only consecrate locking them and on 3 targets he is hitting with hammer but thats all easy to out threat.

Kojiyama
01-05-2010, 02:21 AM
You can easily out threat a paladin on aoe tanking STOP CLEAVING tab through the targets and hit the bloody things with your high threat attacks. The pally only consecrate locking them and on 3 targets he is hitting with hammer but thats all easy to out threat.

You can't seriously think that it's effective to tab randomly through 7-8 mobs on a pull and use single target abilities on them? So...in 12 seconds, I'll use 1 single-target ability on each mob, roughly only 3 of which will be Shield Slams and the rest will be forced to be Devastates due to cooldown.

Cleave on 2 additional targets does roughly the same additional threat per execute as a Shield Slam, so why one would 'stop cleaving' is a bit beyond me. That has nothing to do with Cleaving whatsoever, at any rate, considering Cleave is on next melee swing and doesn't stop one from using normal abilities.

And, beside that, what exactly is stopping the Paladin from doing exactly the same thing? The fact is, over time Consecration is better TPS than Thunder Clap in almost every situation, and Holy Shield is notably higher TPS than Damage Shield due to its scaling, even if the charges are all being expended.

Either way, on the topic itself, AoE threat is very rarely influenced by rage generation. If you are tanking many mobs you have tons of rage just by the nature of it.

Also, I would note that Shield Specialization is realistically probably the most effective thing for AoE tanking when compared to Focused Rage, simply because the rotational needs of AoE tanking are not substantially different than normal (other than the slightly increased cost of Cleave vs. Heroic Strike) yet the number of Blocks/Avoidance per second is generally much higher.

drae
01-05-2010, 06:07 AM
I'm running with 3/3 DW, 5/5 Shield spec, 2/3 FR, 0/2 imp. revenge; glyphed devastate. I'm holding onto the t9 2pc as long as possible. Like Aggathon I'm using a BQS. Normally I'd go 4/5 SS and 3/3 FR, but I needed the 1% for anub adds awhile back and didn't bother to change it, as I doubt 1pt = 50g.

Personally I consider FR better for most single target situations, and SS for multi-targets, SS' value rises as the number of targets attacking you rises, to a point of course (when you hit unlimited rage regardless of SS rage income). So for places like TOC, I'd use FR; for places heavy in trash, heroics, etc.. I lean towards SS. I'll spec as per the current tier raid zone.

Until I replace my 2pc t9.25, I will have both, sacrificing imp. revenge in my rotation and spec.

uglybbtoo
01-05-2010, 10:52 PM
[QUOTE=Kojiyama;349065]
You can't seriously think that it's effective to tab randomly through 7-8 mobs on a pull and use single target abilities on them?
[QUOTE]

I don't do theory .. I only DO ... SS/DEV/REVENGE/HS are all I use.

I was trying to think how long it takes me to grab 7 targets but to be honest I dont really know because it sort of remote control .. but not very long.

I don't even have cleave on my toolbar and yet I often get complaints from pally's that I have all the mobs. When I use cleave I lose mobs all the time and even in heroics with only 5 mobs I find it painful dps always pull one or two if I use cleave.

If a pally and I hit a pack of 7/8 at the same time generally he will have shield tossed and 3 targets I will charge and thunderclap then shockwave so he may still have his 3 targets he hit. If I am not thinking or trying to spread the pull by habbit his target plates will be red to me and I will select and whack them during that time if he used hammer he will generally hold those 3 if he consecrates to try and pick the mob up I will generally get at least 2 of his targets. It then becomes a straight threat race as I cycle along whacking any mob that starts going red. From that point assuming we are the same threat levels he is stuffed everytime he goes to get one off me it goes red and I will whack it hence why they complain.

Hey if you can cleave and lock crap you are obviously doing that right because I am stuffed if I can I suck balls when I try it.