PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Last Word



Odok
12-23-2009, 03:10 PM
Has anyone run the math on this weapon?

Last Word - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50179/last-word/)

It drops off Putricide on 25 and looks to be the tank's "proc but no stats" weapon in ICC. I'm having a hard time deciding on how good this weapon is. The other proc weapons/trinkets so far seem to have a pretty decent rate so it'd be up a lot. However, compare it to what I'm currently using -- Blood and Glory from Tribute Anub-10.

Blood and Glory - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=48699)

It's a loss of about 1% avoidance from the dodge/parry/defense, but a gain of 28 stamina. +100 strength from the proc seems like a lot but it's really only +42 over B&G. Plus the +100 strength is a proc while the other is guaranteed to have a 100% uptime so it could average out to be less strength thank B&G. However Last Word has higher dps and damage range, which means bigger devastates and white/HS damage. But it's also at 1.80 speed vs. 1.60, which is going to affect the proc rate, buff the devastate damage, but reduce the tps from HS. Not to mention the loss of the socket on normal (heroic version has a yellow socket but a smidge less stamina).

I'm also not sold on the +300 healing received. More often than not bonus healing just results in overhealing. Tanks and healers don't like maybes and we're going to ensure the tank is healed with or without the proc buff. Plus it's uncontrollable which means it likely won't proc during spike boss damage and likely will proc during weak trash/boss damage or add tanking.

So I'm thinking The Facelifter from Putricide-10 might be the better choice:

The Facelifter - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51869/the-facelifter/)

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 04:08 PM
I think Last Word is going to end up being a situational weapon. I can see it being very good if there was a fight with some sort of MS effect, other than that, it gets a big "meh" from me. I'd actually say ardent guard is better because it asborbs damage rather than making it more healable, I guess.

The weapon in general seems underwhelming, but we can't really run math on it since we don't know the proc rate.

Facelifter seems much better.

swelt
12-23-2009, 04:24 PM
Surely the jury has to be out until we can test it? I mean if the proc is quel'serrar style very high uptime and the +300 healing is applied in a good way, it could be massive. The difference I see between this and a traditional stat weapon is that it's effects are multiplied by the number of healers casting on you. Armour on the TOC sword reduces the effect of each hit by a very small amount. The +healing of last word amplifies the heals from all sources that are going on at the same time. In a fight where you have lots of heals going through the MT, the net result has surely got to be bigger in the latter case?

So far I hear the other "cool proc stuff" has turned out pretty powerful (at least Bryn'troll is pretty imba and a recent blue post said they didn't mind that). However I think it'll take some pretty good *healer* theorycrafting as well as tank theory to understand the value of this proc. I think tank theorycraft often has a tendency to oversimplify the healing mechanics.

Spiritus
12-23-2009, 04:36 PM
Healer's opinion inc:

General: Healing + RNG = Boo. Unless it has over a 90% uptime, I'm skeptical of its benefit, even without answering the questions below.

More Specific: What's the coefficient? It says "up to 300." Does it use the coefficient of the healer who casts the spell? Or does it apply a static amount based on the type of heal (HoT, Quick DH, Slow DH)? I assume absorbs get left out of this. How does it effect passives like VE and HST? So many ifs on an item like this. The jury is indeed out until it is tested live.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 04:38 PM
The problem is, this assumes that healing is a problem. I've seen as much as 85% overhealing done on me, so really all the proc would mean is that I get overhealed MORE. Pallies already don't spec into divinity when they might be able to because... well... it sucks.

swelt
12-23-2009, 04:43 PM
Then maybe you are running too many healers? If you are getting 85% overhealing, what difference does the few hundred armour on ardent guard make? Virtually none.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of this weapon - I have no opinion at all until it's dropped and been tested. I am just concious that the *design intent* of this weapon is probably that it should be desirable, and possibly even knowingly OP to make it so.

Source: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Byrntroll proc does more damage than SS (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/22048466047-byrntroll-proc-does-more-damage-than-ss.html)

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 04:46 PM
nonono, 85% overhealing was from 1 person. It's because healers pretty much spam tanks, whether they're taking damage or not. The armor question is based on EHP, which gives you more EHP the stam from an item or the armor, it's not as much about the reduction, depending on fight mechanics. So that's really a non-sequitor.

The 300 doesn't effect damage you take or amount of hit points you have, only healing, at the point in time where you have 3 healers that each can bomb 20k heals on you, then as long as you don't take 60k damage before they can get casts off, then you're fine, but chances are they're spamming and you can.

swelt
12-23-2009, 04:54 PM
I think you are missing my point. If you are in a position for a single healer to have 85% overhealing on you then the overall healing : damage ratio is so far out of balance that a few points of armour is insignificant. Similarly, you are doing exactly what I said about tank theory oversimplifying healing by talking about 20k heals. That big green soup of healing numbers isn't just pally spam, it's the earth shield, the prayer of mending, the incidental hots. The specifics of how the proc is implemented will determine whether it ends up being trash, interesting or utterly overpowered, none of which we can know now.

Spiritus
12-23-2009, 04:55 PM
The benefit of a proc like this, assuming its near 100% uptime, is the extra healing when its needed, not when it isn't. The unfortunate state of healing these days is spam, spam, spam. That extra 300healing could make a difference now and again, just like how that extra X armor or avoidance can. Does it prevent a wipe every swing? No, but when it does, your glad its there.

Now, the problem with procs and healing (just like procs and tanking), is that sometimes it procs when you don't need it, and sometimes it doesn't when you do. The uptime and the coefficients are going to make or break this weapon.

At first glance, from a healer's perspective, I'm not all that excited about it.

Kojiyama
12-23-2009, 05:15 PM
Honestly, unless it's 100% uptime it's terrible.

Even if it is 100% uptime, I'm not convinced it's actually all that great. The lack of any relevant tanking stats (what's with the puny Strength proc, anyway?) really makes it quite poor.

They've managed to make a lot of cool weapons and gear mechanics in ICC so far...unfortunately none of them seem to be tank-oriented, and the majority of 'cool' tank-oriented procs and effects simply aren't very good in the slightest bit and/or are poorly designed.

Even if the goal is to make it cool and useful, the proc effect is just way too low. 300 +healing? That's nothing, in the grand scheme of things. And, realistically, since healers will stack enough +healing to keep people alive who don't happen to have the weapon, it's pretty much going to be wasted in most cases.

(I mean, honestly.. there are a lot of cooler things you could do with this even if you wanted the same general idea to be in place... I mean.. what about something like an improved Blood Draining mechanic.. every time you're healed to full you get 1 charge, stacking up to X times. When you drop below 35% health it uses the charges and heals you. Now that would actually be useful. Or a haste buff on the healers instead of just spellpower which will mostly be wasted on spam healers... There are plenty of other things you could do with this...)

We'll see how the uptime is in a few weeks though... which will be either the nail in the coffin for it or bring it up for some more discussion.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 06:10 PM
Even if it is 100% uptime, I'm not convinced it's actually all that great. The lack of any relevant tanking stats (what's with the puny Strength proc, anyway?) really makes it quite poor.

I think they're trying to re-create Formula: Enchant Weapon - Crusader - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=16252)

Edgewalker
12-23-2009, 08:13 PM
Even with 100% uptime, it would be a pretty poorly thought out and implemented weapon.

Kojiyama
12-24-2009, 02:56 AM
I think they're trying to re-create Formula: Enchant Weapon - Crusader - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=16252)

Could well be, however for the level of content and time, I'd say Crusader was probably much better. ;)

Aggathon
12-25-2009, 01:07 AM
Could well be, however for the level of content and time, I'd say Crusader was probably much better. ;)

I completely agree.

Reev
12-25-2009, 04:30 AM
I don't know. If you have a lot of HoTs rolling on you while tanking, "up to 300 healing" could end up being a non-trivial amount of extra healing. It happens very often when I take dangerous damage spikes that I'll take a couple swings to get me low, then take like 6 HoT ticks all at once before taking another hit. If those are all increased, as well as the JoL healing, and any direct heals, that's almost like adding a fair amount of effective health to me while tanking (only when it's procced of course). So while this is no Quel'Serrar proc, it looks like it could be useful.

Kojiyama
12-25-2009, 06:29 PM
Well, at the end of the day it's +HPS by whatever +300 healing does for each class and person healing you... minus overhealing and multiplied by uptime.

So until we see the uptime, we don't know half of it.. but we do know that given the average overhealing of most healers and the fact that healers at this end of the gear spectrum have 3000+ healing or so, that the overall increase is likely to be fairly low when all factors are considered.

I mean, if it is similar uptime to other procs of that duration and such it could easily simply boil down to something like a 1-3% increase in effective healing per second taken which is completely uncontrollable and more often than not will have any implication in near-death scenarios.Too early to say for certain, but I wouldn't hope for much.

It's also unknown if it will affect heals already rolling on you, Prayer of Mending/Chain Heal jumps, Disc Priest shields, or anything of that nature.

Aggathon
12-26-2009, 10:15 AM
I don't know. If you have a lot of HoTs rolling on you while tanking, "up to 300 healing" could end up being a non-trivial amount of extra healing. It happens very often when I take dangerous damage spikes that I'll take a couple swings to get me low, then take like 6 HoT ticks all at once before taking another hit. If those are all increased, as well as the JoL healing, and any direct heals, that's almost like adding a fair amount of effective health to me while tanking (only when it's procced of course). So while this is no Quel'Serrar proc, it looks like it could be useful.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but +healing wouldn't apply to each individual HoT tick, so like if your HoT is ticking for 1k, it would instead tick for 1.3k. That's not how it works, it would apply for the total heal, so if your total heal heals 1k a tick for 10 seconds that's 10,000 healing +300 = 10,300 healing. Therefore the increased heal would be more like 30 per tick, and therefore be relatively inconsequential. For raid heals maybe this is good but this proc doesn't help with that at all, and when you have a holy pally bombing 20k heals on you, 30 more hit points in healing is a drop in the bucket at best.

Even with 100% uptime i can't see the proc as being worth it vs. pretty much any other tanking weapon.

Reev
12-27-2009, 08:12 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but +healing wouldn't apply to each individual HoT tick, so like if your HoT is ticking for 1k, it would instead tick for 1.3k. That's not how it works, it would apply for the total heal, so if your total heal heals 1k a tick for 10 seconds that's 10,000 healing +300 = 10,300 healing. Therefore the increased heal would be more like 30 per tick, and therefore be relatively inconsequential. For raid heals maybe this is good but this proc doesn't help with that at all, and when you have a holy pally bombing 20k heals on you, 30 more hit points in healing is a drop in the bucket at best.

Even with 100% uptime i can't see the proc as being worth it vs. pretty much any other tanking weapon.

I wasn't suggesting that it applied 300 + healing to each tick of a HoT. It's divided among the ticks of the spell according to the spellpower coefficient.

Akolon
01-06-2010, 02:27 AM
Mh, was anyone here capable of grippng this baby already?

Since the procrate has been increased "greatly" last night, I am wondering if it would be worth to aim for this weapon.

I am currently using bonebreaker which is a nobrainer, but this procc looks pretty interesting to me and the increased dps (higher itemlevel) is always a welcome upgrade.

swelt
01-06-2010, 03:28 AM
The proc for the item, The Last Word, has been greatly increased to allow for more continuous uptime.


We're happy with Bryntroll for now. We'll see when the heroic version gets out there.

If anything, the other weapon procs need to be closer to this level.

There has been a bunch of other discussion about weapon procs. There is a clear design intent for this weapon to be desirable. I'd certainly be keen to see it tested, and fully expect it to end up being good (even if it takes a few more buffs to get there).

Dreadski
01-06-2010, 04:58 AM
I think Last Word is going to end up being a situational weapon. I can see it being very good if there was a fight with some sort of MS effect, other than that, it gets a big "meh" from me. I'd actually say ardent guard is better because it asborbs damage rather than making it more healable, I guess.

The weapon in general seems underwhelming, but we can't really run math on it since we don't know the proc rate.

Facelifter seems much better.

Wouldn't MS effect this healing as well?

Aggathon
01-06-2010, 06:58 AM
Wouldn't MS effect this healing as well?

Ya, but it's still more healing.

Eravian
01-06-2010, 07:42 AM
I'm always a little hesitant about healing procs on tanking weapons (with the exception of Blood Draining, which stacks and you know when it goes off)... while the idea is good behind them, they generally don't really end up being as effective as they might seem. Lifeward is the perfect example... thought I'd test it out, so I put it on Rimefang's Claw and ran a Heroic. Healed me for 14k over the course of an entire (slow) Pits of Saron run at 300 a pop. Pretty lackluster. This looks like it might end up being the same way. Not that those heals are bad, but when you could have more tangible things, why bother?

Kojiyama
01-06-2010, 08:28 AM
If the uptime is actually 100% with the changes, it may be somewhat viable.

I mean, 300 Spellpower is probably going to add somewhere in the neighborhood of 450-500 HPS to each healer healing you at a given time.

There could be situations where this is useful, but it will be hard to tell depending on what fights we actually see. On many of the current fights, it would offer no real benefit considering it would not lower the amount of heals needed on you (due to being too small of a change) and simply contribute primarily to overhealing with a slight increase in your HP after the first couple heals while waiting for the final ones.

My guess is that it simply isn't good enough to make much of a difference, though.

Aggathon
01-06-2010, 12:41 PM
Not that those heals are bad, but when you could have more tangible things, why bother?

Exactly, imo the lithmus test for this item is against BQS, and frankly I'd take a 50% uptime armor proc over this in a heart beat.

Mačl
01-07-2010, 02:43 AM
As a healer I won't have anything nice to say about this weapon. Even with 100% uptime. +300 Healing is negligible. Even if it were 300 healing per healing effect. ATM healing is 85% overheal since every healer either doesn't have to conserve mana or we are keeping up procs on the tanks.
In the olden days overheal was a sign of sloppyness. It hasn't been so for a very long time. Since TBC tbh.

Kojiyama
01-07-2010, 05:21 AM
The thing is, with the HPS figures I posted above basically it amounts to roughly a 5% increase in healing done. It's not a huge amount.

However, the issue is the mechanics.

If, for instance, it was:
While active, successful heals on you grant a healing over time effect of XXX over 8 seconds.

And the buff had the ability to accumulate like Deep Wounds/Ignite.. then, sure, we may have a winner there. It would be less likely to just be sacrificed to the overhealing gods.

If it granted an absorb shield it would pretty awesome, or something like a souped up version of Blood Draining.

There are tons of ways this weapon could be cool and awesome... sadly it isn't any of those right now.

A 5% increase in healing when healers already have 50-60% overheal on tanks is pretty much useless. At best it's going to be a 2-3% increase in healing, and even then you're talking about simply having an additional 600-700 buffer health for 0.5-1s while the final heal(s) land to top you up. It's just not that useful.

Honestly, copying the Bryntroll proc over to the tanking weapon would probably be more useful in the average fight. :P

swelt
01-07-2010, 08:09 AM
Maybe once there's real data and testing been done, those kinds of suggestions could be posted somewhere that they might be read. Blizzard have struggled for a long time to make stuff that appeals to tanks that isn't just MOAR (effective) HITPOINTS!1! - just look at the weapon enchants. They are saying they want more proc stuff, and they want the proc stuff to be desirable. Proper evidence to show that this isn't it, coupled with considered and balanced examples of what would be, I think would be well received.

Not worth crying about something on speculation alone of course, they will ignore it as they should.

Kojiyama
01-07-2010, 08:19 AM
Sadly, I'm on the EU realms so I have to leave such posting to the vocal members of the US community. ;)

I would also imagine they do read Tankspot, though.

The healing community themselves have done a lot of posting about how proc-based +Healing is generally a Bad Thing (tm), so honestly most of those arguments should translate over to tanking as well.

I also remember back in the T3 days plenty of comments about how the T3 8-set (wow, that sounds strange nowadays!) bonus was equally bad for various similar reasons.

After all, there's a lovely post on WoWHead from 3+ years ago saying:


We just had a few of our tanks get this set bonus and its pretty disapointing. ... In any case, +160 healing isn't going to keep the tank alive but rather just increase how fast he gets healed to full (by a very marginal amount). A bonus like +10% dodge when you're sub 20% health would be much better.


...which is basically a mirror of exactly what we're saying now. :P

Odok
01-13-2010, 02:19 PM
Well reports on the proc are starting to trickle in. Apparently it has no internal cooldown and pretty much a 100% uptime.

Eyegore
01-16-2010, 09:02 PM
I can confirm that this thing procs all the time, I really doubt that the proc would ever fall off as long as you are attacking something.

I did a (very) little quick and dirty testing with it. I had a resto druid remove all proc gear, then put up a rejuve. It ticked for 2445 without the proc, 2639 with. He then was able to remove an item dropping his spell power by 309 (as close to 300 as he could get) and it then with proc healed for 2439 per tick.

I would have a guess based on this that the proc acts as another 300 spellpower for every healer on you, not a flat +300 on all heals or divided across hots.

If anyone has a better test I could do conveniently I'll listen.

It does not seem to effect bandages or enraged regen at all, if anyone cares.

markv
01-17-2010, 12:40 AM
The proc is 100% uptime. I got this weapon this week and am just screwing around with it for raids over the next bit, so if you want to see data for it just go to my guilds WoL posts.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/2687/)

Enjoy. You'll see me using it starting next week in raids.

Kguku is the name of my tank.

Eyegore
01-25-2010, 09:13 AM
Well it seems like the proc effect tooltip has clearer wording than the description on the weapon http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=71870

"Increases strength by 100 and increases healing received as if the caster has 300 more spell power. Lasts 10 sec."

So that is how it works. I have to say I am as big a fan of armor as anyone, but if this is adding a couple hundred to individual hot ticks (and a good bit more to direct heals one would assume) it seems pretty damn good to me.

edit* Anyone happen to know how/if this proc interacts with the blood draining heal proc? I will see if I can't play with that sometime soon if noone else has.

drae
01-25-2010, 10:25 AM
Do you cast amplify magic on your tanks in fights which are entirely physical based?

Cause that's basically what this weapon does. A pally co-tank of mine has this thing. I was happy he grabbed it; cause I wasn't going to.

You'd think adding 300 spell power to all the healers in your raid would have greater benefits.

Aggathon
01-25-2010, 10:45 AM
Do you cast amplify magic on your tanks in fights which are entirely physical based?

Cause that's basically what this weapon does. A pally co-tank of mine has this thing. I was happy he grabbed it; cause I wasn't going to.

You'd think adding 300 spell power to all the healers in your raid would have greater benefits.]

Actually boss spell damage is non-modifiable, so amplify magic helps in any situation, however we've typically only used it in heavy AoE dmg fights (like mimiron hardmode) because it just turns into tank overhealing.

Also, I've said it before, but spell power does not scale the same for all classes, for pallies it is one of the worst throughput stats if you are an HL pally. Usually raid healers benefit more from raw spell dmg (like resto druids for example). So 300 sp isn't actually that great on a tank.

Will you die because you used this weapon instead of something else? Probably not. Is the proc beneficial? Yes, but marginally. Is it game breaking? Hell no. Will I use it over ogrim's? Negative.

Eravian
01-25-2010, 10:49 AM
...I still want Burnished Quel'serrar... darn dragon lady... GIVE ME MY SWORD!!

Kojiyama
01-25-2010, 01:38 PM
I'm tempted never to use it again just due to the fact that the animation makes me want to cry. ;)

I used it tonight on Blood-Queen as OT, as there seemed no downside to doing so...but honestly it didn't seem to do much of anything. There was no significant or perceptible difference in the average healing sizes from any of the healer's sources of healing that I could see. Will dig through the logs a little more to compare exact HoT ticks and such, but really the difference seems so insignificant I can hardly imagine it made much of an impact at all.

Bodasafa
01-25-2010, 01:59 PM
I'm tempted never to use it again just due to the fact that the animation makes me want to cry. ;)

I used it tonight on Blood-Queen as OT, as there seemed no downside to doing so...but honestly it didn't seem to do much of anything. There was no significant or perceptible difference in the average healing sizes from any of the healer's sources of healing that I could see. Will dig through the logs a little more to compare exact HoT ticks and such, but really the difference seems so insignificant I can hardly imagine it made much of an impact at all.

Thanks for reporting back, I look forward to see your findings.

Kojiyama
01-25-2010, 03:09 PM
More practical numbers:

Wild Growth: 923 Average (773-1094) on MT, 979 Average (824-1147) on me
Rejuv: 2,918 (2,726-3,199) on MT, 3,283 (2,985-3,405) on me

Identical event timings:
2010-01-25 22:26:15.343 Mongbatstar's Wild Growth(R4) heals Orterius for 1033 hitpoints.
2010-01-25 22:26:15.343 Mongbatstar's Wild Growth(R4) heals Jayde for 1086 hitpoints.

As expected, it has no impact on initial-heal splash effects like Glyph of Holy Light, Beacon of Light, etc. if you aren't the initial target. (You would want to Beacon another tank in this case, I presume.) It also seems to have no effect if you are a jump target from Chain Heal and not the initial target.

Interestingly, I also found this...which worries me a little bit:
2010-01-25 22:28:13.078 Mongbatstar's Rejuvenation(R15) heals Narinthel for 3062 hitpoints.
2010-01-25 22:28:14.015 Mongbatstar's Rejuvenation(R15) heals Rain for 3063 hitpoints.
2010-01-25 22:28:14.281 Mongbatstar's Rejuvenation(R15) heals Jayde for 3062 hitpoints.

...now...I don't know if perhaps that Rejuv on me was a jump from the T10 set bonus rather than a direct cast?

I found this later in the log:
2010-01-25 22:29:17.437 Mongbatstar's Rejuvenation(R15) heals Premortem for 2791 hitpoints.
2010-01-25 22:29:17.453 Mongbatstar's Rejuvenation(R15) heals Jayde for 3284 hitpoints.

...so, it does appear as if direct-cast Rejuv's gain around 500 HP per tick, however jump Rejuv's from the set bonus gain nothing, like the other jump effects. (Likewise, I suppose if they jumped off you they would be increased for everyone?)

Also, another 'bad' example:
2010-01-25 22:27:10.265 Dunks's Glyph of Power Word: Shield heals Jayde for 2668 hitpoints.
2010-01-25 22:27:11.484 Dunks's Glyph of Power Word: Shield heals Xlone for 2668 hitpoints.

So...no advantage from effects like that either.

All in all, I'm very unimpressed. Seems way too limited and situational, and requires the healers to basically rethink their entire way of targetting just to get proper use out of it.

markv
01-26-2010, 09:24 AM
You can check out the logs from this week if you want as I tried to make an effort to use LW the entire week in both 10 and 25s. But after going through my logs, and what Koji posted as well, I think I'm just going to stick with my Ardent Guard, because living with that animation for the past week has been torture.

Raise your hand if you're sure! (I feel like a deodorant commercial when I'm tanking right now)

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/2687/

Odok
01-26-2010, 11:52 AM
What exactly is the animation? O-o Is it just Hand of Protection firing off like prot warrior enrage?

It's also unfortunate that this proc is so under-performing. The success of the other proc weapons had me looking forward to something new, hopefully something new and cool like Nibelung. I think this would've worked better if it just ended up being a replacement for blood draining. Weapon procs a 10 second buff where every heal landed will store a healing charge, up to a maximum amount, that lasts until canceled or until you drop below 35% health and it fires off.

Oh well. At least we get to look forward to Lich King 10-Heroic.

http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51947/troggbane-axe-of-the-frostborne-king/

Maybe it's a sign another tanking weapon will drop from LK-25?

markv
01-26-2010, 12:33 PM
Basically you do the raise your hand animation every time it procs. This one guy in my guild loves to spam levitate me when doing heroics because between the levitate and the animation I slowly go insane.

Here's a video of the animation in action as I made a video of my UI for a friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOs4cIHWzH0

Bodasafa
01-26-2010, 01:14 PM
I have a feeling they will buff this weapon until it becomes viable and everyone who passed on it will regret it. Even with that reservation, I'm still not convinced enough to spend the massive amount of DKP on it.

So far my Heroic Crusader's Glory looks to be BiS, until I see what the Lich King drops.

Hovsa
01-27-2010, 08:08 AM
Most people here seem to only consider the 300 healing buff and completely forget about the 100 strength, wich is actually quite a nice buff.

Eravian
01-27-2010, 08:14 AM
Yeah, but it's ugly... Proc based weapons get more love if they look cool.

Just saying.

Kojiyama
01-27-2010, 08:35 AM
Most people here seem to only consider the 300 healing buff and completely forget about the 100 strength, wich is actually quite a nice buff.

Well, yes and no. It's only 34 more Strength than the TotC weapons, so it's a pretty trivial difference. Given that the competing ICC weapons have Expertise/Hit on them, they will likely produce similar or possibly even higher TPS (especially The Facelifter) regardless of the Strength differencial.

Edgewalker
01-27-2010, 09:11 AM
All of the items have a limited use on most other encounters. This one would be fine for OTing Blood Queen Lanathel, as your armor, defense, dodge, and parry are useless there.

Kojiyama
01-27-2010, 09:19 AM
Yeah, that's why I thought it was a good test environment...since there was no reason not to use it.

swelt
02-19-2010, 01:19 AM
Resurrecting this thread, now that the weapon has been out there for a while (and also because after Putricide dropped the 3rd one I picked it up) I'm looking at this weapon as fairly decent threat weapon (high dps, 1.8 speed, 100 str proc), but little more than that. Is that still the general consensus? I'm thinking it probably came out of the devastate buff looking fairly good.

Mačl
02-19-2010, 02:00 AM
This thing has zero survivabilty built in. Threat is not such a big issue.
I'd use it over Rimefang. But beyond that I'd really have to think about it.

swelt
02-19-2010, 02:08 AM
It's got 104 stamina, which is somewhat > 0 survivability. It has no *avoidance*, sure. It has lower EH than crusader's glory because of the lack of armor. For fight like sindragosa where all the significant damage is magical, you could make a case for the high stamina (coupled with the wierd healing proc) being more significant than either of those factors.

Mačl
02-19-2010, 02:25 AM
Yes, the 104 stam are nice and it may be nice for a fight like Sindragosa(I haven't tanked or healed there so I will just assume you can keep attacking her all the time for 100% uptime). But that makes it a novelty item.

The +healing is a solution looking for a problem. In those rare cases where my healing spam doesn't go straight into overheal it will offer too little. It might(and I'm basing this on no fact whatsoever) give +10k healing when healing a tank from 10% to 100% if you get 4-5 healers panic healing the tank making it more valuable the more healers are assigned to you. The problem is rather that the tank dropped so low in the first place. If the proc would target that, then I would be really excited. But it doesn't, so I'm not. But it is very cool. I would use it any time I felt like I could afford to. If you don't die because wearing one item then I'd go for it. Just for style. It is a beauty, this.

Shenron
02-19-2010, 09:46 PM
Well I just picked up this weapon last week.
Is it just me, or this this buff up ALL THE TIME!?

Kojiyama
02-20-2010, 05:18 AM
It is up all the time, yes.

I've again been experimenting with it this week, but the tangible benefit is pretty low. Honestly, the only fights I use it on are Sindragosa (because Def stats aren't all that important and healer efficiency actually matters) and Blood Queen (as OT since you take no physical damage anyway.) Otherwise I use The Facelifter.

Passive
03-19-2010, 01:27 AM
My holy paladin recently respecced to flash of light build, where you gem full spell power and use the pvp libram to increase the spell power of flash. Previously he said this weapon sucked but we were starting to think that in flash of light build, this weapon may actually be a fantastic choice.

Edit, Link to Flash of Light build explanation: http://www.holypaladin.net/index.php/explaining-the-flash-of-light-build-for-holy-paladins

What you're essentially doing is boosting the spell power of a smaller, faster and more efficient heal by stacking SP, rather than using a large inefficient heal and gemming full int to be able to do so. Its more than just that, but its a brief idea of why Last Word might well be great in this situation.

Kojiyama
03-19-2010, 03:16 AM
I personally haven't used the weapon in weeks. It's pretty 'meh' compared to the 10-man heroic options easily available. It's just not a well-designed weapon.

Brage
03-19-2010, 06:46 AM
From what i've seen so far, the 300extra healing effectively translates into more overhealing anyway, so you're left with the 104stam + the 100strength. Compared to the alternative counterparts it's just not worth is.
It might be a very good weapon for 5mans though, if you get unlucky and get a somewhat bad healer.
The idea behind the proc is nice though and i hope to see more of the same thinking later on.

swelt
03-19-2010, 06:59 AM
I'd rather see tank procs go the way of corpse tongue coin and blood draining than last word. I think what tanks like most are a) raw and dependable stats and b) things that you can use or happen automatically when you need them most. Since they don't want to give us a stamina enchant on weapon, I think it needs to fall into the second category.

If you wanted to keep the "benefits healers" aspect of last word, perhaps something like this: When you drop below 35% health, increase the chance that a direct heal will be a critical heal by X%, effect will occur no more than Y times per Z seconds.

Personally, I use last word for my daily heroic and for sindragosa.

Inaara
03-19-2010, 10:15 AM
if the proc is quel'serrar

If it was Quel'serrar I'd use it. Unfortunately it isn't, so I'll stick with Facelifter.

Bodasafa
03-19-2010, 12:12 PM
So I decided to do some comparing of the viable weapon options to see how the Last Word stacks up (excluded heroic ICC versions and LK drops): http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=47967;47506;50179;51010;50760&focus=0

Out of that I would rate the Heroic Crusader's Glory as the best weapon for Physical Damage, followed by the Silverwing Defender as the best weapon for Magic Damage. The Facelifter and Bonebreaker Scepter come in second.

The Last Word is dead last, even with the Proc in my opinion. Aside from a few token fights this weapon is basically garbage with a high item level compared to the other options.

Currently I would say it is well worth a tanks time to run ToGC 10 for Heroic Crusader's Glory until they can get their hands on one of the Lich King weapons 10/25.

DnQuxiti
03-19-2010, 01:04 PM
More importantly, Last Word is easily one of the uglier weapons you can get, particularly when compared to the other swords released in this patch. Rimefang's Claw and the Facelifter are both great looking models. The axes, if you are inclined to use one, aren't too shabby either.

Dragaan
03-21-2010, 11:39 AM
It's got 104 stamina, which is somewhat > 0 survivability. It has no *avoidance*, sure. It has lower EH than crusader's glory because of the lack of armor. For fight like sindragosa where all the significant damage is magical, you could make a case for the high stamina (coupled with the wierd healing proc) being more significant than either of those factors.

Maybe for normal sindragosa... But heroic sindragosa hits like a freaking truck on 25man. Most of the damage you take is physical, even tho she's only attacking you for like 75% or less of the fight. 35-40k melee aren't uncommon and she cleaves just as hard. :O

Kojiyama
03-23-2010, 03:33 AM
The other thing worth noting is that the lack of Defense Rating can be problematic for those with the set Chest + crafted Legs or those choosing to use FrR gear on Sindragosa.

I know for my own part, I don't even have the two non-Defense items (I use the badge chest instead of the set chest) and still drop below the crit-immunity cap with FrR gear on without using a proper tank weapon. This could be sorted by swapping some gems out in my FrR gear, but it seems easier just to use a proper tank weapon than sacrifice Stamina gems to make up for the weapon's issues.

Brage
03-23-2010, 04:34 AM
Sorry for asking, but isn't it too big of a sacrifise using FrR gear for sindragosa? On heroic mode you can CD out of the breath pretty much every time anyway, something that gets even easier w. 4p bonus.

But back on topic: Concerning the defense loss, you're quite right. I never use FrR gear in any Icc encounter, i use the t10 chest + Pillars of might and i'm barely scraping by on defense. Losing the defense on my weapon would put me at a severe disadvantage.

Dragaan
03-23-2010, 04:48 AM
Frost resist is fine on sindragosa unless it's 25man heroic. Then, in my opinion, using any more than 2-3 pieces of resist gear is silly because most of her burst potential is due to how hard her physical attacks hit. That, and the frost attacks are predictable which means you can just use cooldowns like you said.

Kojiyama
03-23-2010, 10:27 AM
Hitting certain FrR minimum resist thresholds can be a net increase to your TEH, depending on the situation.

In 25-H, it's possible this is a smaller ideal number than in 25-N or 10-N/H, where 'full' FrR gear (510+) for the 40% minimum/50% average resistance is very useful considering the majority of damage in those difficulty levels is Frost and not Physical.

Davih
04-03-2010, 08:55 AM
theres a lot of posts which i haven't read because theres so many so don't shout if someone has said this, but as a tank did u consider using last word until u got the proc then changing weapon lets say back to blood and glory, then u should have the proc and a different weapon with more dodge etc

Papapaint
04-03-2010, 12:26 PM
theres a lot of posts which i haven't read because theres so many so don't shout if someone has said this, but as a tank did u consider using last word until u got the proc then changing weapon lets say back to blood and glory, then u should have the proc and a different weapon with more dodge etc

Procs go away when you switch weapons now, I believe,

Naraoth
04-04-2010, 04:00 AM
I think it stays, not exactly sure.

Was messing around with Revenge, trying to find which weapon would be "ideal" for heroics. Without anything procced, Crusader's was the highest. Last Word procced was higher, but if I switched to Crusader's after Last Word procced the Revenge damage was even higher. Though it does put your skills on global cooldown whenever you change your weapon midswing in combat, so I guess it's not worth doing every 10 seconds. ^^

Dreadski
04-04-2010, 04:42 AM
I think it stays, not exactly sure.

Was messing around with Revenge, trying to find which weapon would be "ideal" for heroics. Without anything procced, Crusader's was the highest. Last Word procced was higher, but if I switched to Crusader's after Last Word procced the Revenge damage was even higher. Though it does put your skills on global cooldown whenever you change your weapon midswing in combat, so I guess it's not worth doing every 10 seconds. ^^

It definitely is NOT worth switching every 10 seconds. On top of the proc buff going away, you get a gcd every time you switch, so that's 3 seconds per 10 seconds where you can do nothing but heroic strike. Think of the rogues man!

Enski
04-28-2010, 02:40 PM
Ive done a search and gone through most threads regarding this weapon. Unfortunately there seems to be a lack of information with people dismissing it with relative haste.

Do we know what the effects of PW:S, or earth shield are with this weapon? With spell coefficients being quite high for such spells, this 100% proc-uptime weapon seems to provide good EH. Then theres other things such as blood draining, health stones, ardent defender (wouldnt expect any effects on some of these but has it been tested nevertheless).

Fitzlestick
04-30-2010, 03:54 AM
Ive done a search and gone through most threads regarding this weapon. Unfortunately there seems to be a lack of information with people dismissing it with relative haste.

Do we know what the effects of PW:S, or earth shield are with this weapon? With spell coefficients being quite high for such spells, this 100% proc-uptime weapon seems to provide good EH. Then theres other things such as blood draining, health stones, ardent defender (wouldnt expect any effects on some of these but has it been tested nevertheless).

I didn't test it with all the options you mentioned. But I tested it with a shaman, and his 3000 heal had about a 60-100 increase. I'm not sure which type of heal it was (lesser healing wave perhaps, or rupture). Anyway, he laughed and we trashed the weapon.

Byronius
05-19-2010, 10:48 AM
Actually, I never usually use this on Sindragosa, since she is one of the two bosses in ICC with Parry-haste turned on. Expertise has higher value on that fight (if you're not soft capped like I am), plus the def on The Facelifter helps too.

As soon as a Heroic 10m weapon such as Bonebreaker Scepter becomes available, I'm switching to that permanently. =P

Jesauce
05-21-2010, 05:54 PM
As a prot pally who has this weapon, plus a few others from ToC and ICC 10, I find that this is probably one of my favorites. As far as defense goes, I'm using this weapon, boots and a chest piece w/o def, without a single defense enchant, and I'm still sitting comfortably at 553 def, so I don't buy the argument of dropping below the def soft cap. I do use a couple of FrR pieces for sindra, and all I have to do is swap out for a piece with slightly higher defense to meet the req.

As for the weapon itself, I take no credit for this post, as it came from another forum, but it's definitely worth reading.


For straight-up EH, Crusader's Glory is still the strongest. However, since trickle-down deaths are far more common in ICC than in previous tiers, the 300 spellpower Last Word gives each of your healers can often outweigh the extra armor.

Example: If you have 38k armor, then another 522 armor is about 0.29% mitigation (69.84% vs 69.55%), or 1% relative mitigation (as you'd see it in the combat log). Let's say you have 60k HP, and take 60k damage without a heal. Now equip CG and add 522 armor. What you'll see in your combat log is that the extra armor dropped the 60k damage to 59.4k (about 1% less). In other words, the armor prevented 600 damage.

Now, consider what happens with healing. Let's say you get 20k worth of heals (a conservative estimate), so it takes 80k damage to kill you. The armor prevents 1% of that, or 800 damage. Assume your healers have around 3k spellpower, so the LW buff increases their spellpower by 10%. If you assume that the average spellpower coefficient for a healing spell is 1, that turns 20k healing into 22k healing, for a difference of 2k. Even if you take a pessimistic view and use 0.5 for the spellpower coefficient, it's 1k healing. But I suspect the average is actually closer to 1 than 0.5.

The only case where the armor is strictly superior is a situation where you get 15k heals or less for a 0.5 coefficient, or 7k heals for a 1.0 coefficient. If you have any HoTs at all, this is a fairly reasonable target (and iirc it affects your JoLight procs as well).

So you trade 2 stamina, 522 armor, and a bit of avoidance for a huge amount of threat (1.8 speed weapon with 100+ STR) and 300 SP for every healer that heals you.The thing you have to note is that the healing scales. I've seen several logs of healing done to a target with this buff, and it's not a flat +300 to every heal, there is a co-efficient at work behind it, though I haven't done the math to work it out yet, but Holy Lights cast on the target were doing something in the range of 500 extra healing, and Flash of Light was getting the 300.

Papapaint
05-22-2010, 03:10 PM
As a prot pally who has this weapon, plus a few others from ToC and ICC 10, I find that this is probably one of my favorites. As far as defense goes, I'm using this weapon, boots and a chest piece w/o def, without a single defense enchant, and I'm still sitting comfortably at 553 def, so I don't buy the argument of dropping below the def soft cap. I do use a couple of FrR pieces for sindra, and all I have to do is swap out for a piece with slightly higher defense to meet the req.

As for the weapon itself, I take no credit for this post, as it came from another forum, but it's definitely worth reading.

The thing you have to note is that the healing scales. I've seen several logs of healing done to a target with this buff, and it's not a flat +300 to every heal, there is a co-efficient at work behind it, though I haven't done the math to work it out yet, but Holy Lights cast on the target were doing something in the range of 500 extra healing, and Flash of Light was getting the 300.

My one qualm with this is that I have yet to experience many wipes from trickle-down tank deaths. The only fights I consider to be particulaurly punishing for the tanks are fights where there's a chance that the tank can go from full to dead in under 2 seconds.

I've tanked every role in all of ICC, and my deaths are almost always from something clobbering my brains out, except for possibly dreamwalker and sindragosa.

Vincienzo
05-22-2010, 09:08 PM
So I (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackrock&cn=Vincienzo) have 72k hp & over 43k armour raid buffed.

During the heroic lich king encounter he attacks me with Soul Reaper (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=73799)
During the same encounter, enraged & frenzied horrors also hit me for rediculous numbers.

Imo anything that helps me get my hp topped up is win.

Sure the use of Last Word up until Sindragosa/LK is trivial as all the other bosses hit like girls but when you are in an encounter that stretches every available resource you have, little things such as blood draining & the proc off Last Word healing me everytime I get smashed in the face by Soul Reaper helps.

Mert
05-24-2010, 08:53 AM
The thing you have to note is that the healing scales. I've seen several logs of healing done to a target with this buff, and it's not a flat +300 to every heal, there is a co-efficient at work behind it, though I haven't done the math to work it out yet, but Holy Lights cast on the target were doing something in the range of 500 extra healing, and Flash of Light was getting the 300.

From the same thread on Maintankadin (link (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=3&t=28410&rb_v=viewtopic)):


Why wouldn't the proc be good on direct heals? They generally have a higher spellpower coefficient than HoTs, so it's more effective on them. Holy Light, for example, has a 1.66 coefficient, so it's +500 to every Holy Light.



For an example, here are the spellpower coefficients for druid healing spells as of 3.3.0:
(taken from http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_power_coefficients)

Healing Touch
161.14% (201.14% with Empowered Touch)

LifebloomDH
38.57%

LifebloomHoT
6.53% (per tick) (7.84% with Empowered Rejuvenation)

Rejuvenation
37.6% (per tick)(45.12% with Empowered Rejuvenation)

RegrowthDH
30%

RegrowthHoT
18.78% (per tick)(22.54% with Empowered Rejuvenation)

Swiftmend (Rejuvenation)
No direct benefit from spellpower

Swiftmend (Regrowth)
No direct benefit from spellpower

Tranquility
107.43% (per tick) (128.92% with Empowered Rejuvenation)

Wild Growth
11.51% (per tick) (13.82% with Empowered Rejuvenation)

Nourish
80.57% (100.57% with Empowered Touch)

TheYanger
05-29-2010, 05:19 PM
So I (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackrock&cn=Vincienzo) have 72k hp & over 43k armour raid buffed.

During the heroic lich king encounter he attacks me with Soul Reaper (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=73799)
During the same encounter, enraged & frenzied horrors also hit me for rediculous numbers.

Imo anything that helps me get my hp topped up is win.

Sure the use of Last Word up until Sindragosa/LK is trivial as all the other bosses hit like girls but when you are in an encounter that stretches every available resource you have, little things such as blood draining & the proc off Last Word healing me everytime I get smashed in the face by Soul Reaper helps.

This HAS to be a troll, right?

Papapaint
05-30-2010, 04:33 PM
This HAS to be a troll, right?

Seems like a fairly legitimate comment to me...

Most guilds are 5-healing heroic LK right now. When infest is out and two horrors are up, you're relying on single global cooldowns to top you off.

Papapaint
06-04-2010, 08:48 AM
On a side note, this is the only weapon with a stat other than stamina that scales with the ICC zone buff.

Papapaint
06-07-2010, 03:22 PM
So, I used the 264 Last Word for our Heroic Sindragosa kill last night with the intent of posting the logs here:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-dhuzz267zv6cyhuo/details/4/?s=10219&e=10805

I was receiving significantly larger healing than the week before on average without considering overheals, meaning that this weapon's effectiveness is, in fact, scaling with the ICC buff.

Mert
06-07-2010, 05:37 PM
That's very useful to know. We already knew that the +Healing was not a simple added number to each spell but an effective Spellpower bonus applied to the caster but what your post implies (anecdotally for now due to small sample size etc) is that the Spellpower coefficient from Last Word is applied before the percentage increase from the buff. Which I kind of suspected but it's nice to have some data.

Do you have any logs from the 15% period we can use for comparison? I guess to do this properly we also need to know what other variations there have been to the gearset of both you and your healers in that same period so we can eliminate that as a cause for the increased healing you received.

It would make sense for it to scale with the buff and I hope that it's true but I also hope that between us all we can provide enough data for the mathematicians to analyse and draw a very firm conclusion.

Kojiyama
06-09-2010, 08:34 AM
Sure, it scales. However, it has the same proportional benefit as it did before--because all other healing components scale as well.

Given that it was never a massive boost to begin with, being 20% larger isn't going to make it awesome either. I can see using it on Sindragosa or Queen (especially if OTing) but, realistically, it's not going to accomplish a whole lot.

It still has the negative effect of not affecting any secondary heals, proc heals, jump heals, etc. (as shown by my logs in this thread some long time ago) so it won't scale from every positive healing effect that has been increased by the ICC buff.

Mert
06-09-2010, 04:56 PM
Given that it was never a massive boost to begin with, being 20% larger isn't going to make it awesome either. I can see using it on Sindragosa or Queen (especially if OTing) but, realistically, it's not going to accomplish a whole lot.

It does depend on the type of heal you're receiving though - the 340 additional effective Spellpower afforded to your healer will use a different coefficient for different heals. Holy Light benefits greatly from it (somewhere between 700-900 HP per cast) whereas druid HoT ticks only get a relatively tiny boost (I think somewhere in the region of 50-60 per tick). Worth noting though that along with not benefitting from splash or smart heals, it similarly doesn't get any benefit from Beacon so I always tell my Holydins that if all else is equal they should beacon the other tank.

Sure, on some fights it'll largely get lost to overheal or there'll be enough slack that 700 extra health per cast isn't going to make a big difference but for fights like Heroic Sindragosa phase 3 or Heroic Lich King, every single GCD is important and anything you can do to maximise the benefit of those globals is worthy of consideration.

Kojiyama
06-10-2010, 09:06 AM
It really is quite situational, yes.

For instance, I know many Paladins prefer putting BoL on a tank then healing the raid or other targets as needed--in this case, as you mention, the bonus will have no effect. If you are the spam target with Beacon on someone else, then it can have a pretty nice effect.

Odegar
06-11-2010, 07:35 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't we view it as being +300 spell power, with the exclusion of absorbs? I've never heard anybody make an argument that 'healers don't need spell power, because it'll end up as overhealing anyways!'

I have yet to see a rational argument from either side, and it's upsetting me 'cause I have a Last Word and a Heroic Ardent Guard in my bags.

It seems to me that it boils down to whether 522 armor and a small amount of avoidance for your tank is better than 300 spell power, with the exclusion of absorbs, for all of your healers, when healing a person wearing Last Word.

Considering your healers have 3.3-4k raid buffed spell power, and the tank has 33-40k raid buffed armor, there is a 10x greater amount of armor than spell power. 300 spell power would, for stat allowances, equal 3k armor (if you look at shield vs staff it's even more uneven). And yet this is spell power that ONLY works on you, devaluing it greatly. At that point you need to look at 'damage received,' and if you're over 10% of damage received, which is easy for a tank, then at least 1/10 of the healing went to you, concurring with the 10x stat valuation of spell power over armor. Most tanks take much more than 10% of damage received. It's not very scientific, but oh well.

Yet I know I'm horribly ignorant of some mechanic that Last Word has, which makes it not as good as it really seems. At first I wasn't going to roll on Last Word because I had read this thread, but people the raid told me it was great. Then I got shit for wearing it, which made me rethink it's value. I just want an easy answer if I'm going to have to wear my old ToGC weapon any longer.

TheYanger
06-12-2010, 04:02 AM
Simple answer is that it's terrible. You're never going to die when you're getting healed because they weren't strong enough, you're going to die from actual gaps in healing (Where last word does nothing for you) or when you just get gibbed straight up (Where it also does nothing for you). The armor will reduce your intake reasonably significantly, the last word will not.

Bodasafa
06-12-2010, 07:33 AM
Simple answer is that it's terrible. You're never going to die when you're getting healed because they weren't strong enough, you're going to die from actual gaps in healing (Where last word does nothing for you) or when you just get gibbed straight up (Where it also does nothing for you). The armor will reduce your intake reasonably significantly, the last word will not.

I agree.

The increase to STR is irrelevant since threat is a non-issue and not to mention if a tank is having threat issues no amount of STR is going to fix that anyway. The healing proc is interesting, but only mildly better and viable on a few fights compared to the alternatives, as Koji mentioned.

Simply put this weapon falls short. The only time I would recommend any tank use it is if you do not have something comparable/better, which if your tanking ICC 25 you likely do. Heroic Crusaders Glory, Facelifter, Bone Breaker Scepter, hell probably Rimefang's Claw are superior choices as they will give you actual stats you can use to avoid or mitigate damage.

Don't be fooled by this items higher item level, it doesn't add up.

Kojiyama
06-12-2010, 01:29 PM
The unfortunate thing is that all they needed to do was add Armor instead of Strength to the proc and it would be awesome. :(

Harmacy
06-12-2010, 01:33 PM
I agree.

The increase to STR is irrelevant since threat is a non-issue and not to mention if a tank is having threat issues no amount of STR is going to fix that anyway. The healing proc is interesting, but only mildly better and viable on a few fights compared to the alternatives, as Koji mentioned.

Simply put this weapon falls short. The only time I would recommend any tank use it is if you do not have something comparable/better, which if your tanking ICC 25 you likely do. Heroic Crusaders Glory, Facelifter, Bone Breaker Scepter, hell probably Rimefang's Claw are superior choices as they will give you actual stats you can use to avoid or mitigate damage.

Don't be fooled by this items higher item level, it doesn't add up.

I'm not sure how to respond to this kind of flamboyant ignorance. Threat can certainly be an issue - when Wrathy from Maintankadin notes that he was threatcapping his DPS and needed to swap out some +armor gear for +hit on several fights, you can be sure that not 100% of threat issues stem from lack of knowledge or experience.

Now Last Word is not as stellar for a Warrior as it is for a Paladin, because we Paladins get much more from both Strength and from a slower weapon speed. But it's still very good, saying that it's inferior to Rimefang's Claw of all things is ignorant of basic tank mechanics.

You are correct about one thing however: it's certainly inferior to H Crusader's Glory for EH/survival, because of the armor involved. If you have no threat issues or can reliably get plenty of Tricks and MD's, then Crusader's Glory is still a fantastic choice. If you need threat, or if you want to give a bit of breathing room so rogues can use Tricks as a DPS boost, then use Last Word.

And as for this argument:


Simple answer is that it's terrible. You're never going to die when you're getting healed because they weren't strong enough, you're going to die from actual gaps in healing (Where last word does nothing for you) or when you just get gibbed straight up (Where it also does nothing for you). The armor will reduce your intake reasonably significantly, the last word will not.

This logic does not add up. You are seriously overvaluing avoidance and undervaluing the boost to incoming heals.

Avoidance is decent, but nothing to seek out. This is common sense - the avoidance on traditional tank weapons will do nothing for getting gibbed. (the only exception as you noted is the armor on H Crusader's Glory)

Now for the healing. You seem to be under the impression that tank deaths are only caused by healers who don't heal the tank for several seconds straight. If this is true, you have some awful healers in your guild, and likely should recruit some who understand what they're doing. The extra 300 spellpower on heals done to you is very nice - not game-breaking, but still a big boost. Even if it's largely overheal, the fact is that it WILL help when you get low and need to be healed back up.

Remember that not every single heal on you is a Holy Pally critting with Holy Light for 20 million. You will have several HoTs on you at all times (again, if your healers are decent, any Tree or Shammy worth their salt will throw a Rejuv or Riptide on the tank even if they're raid healing), and quite a few of these ticks will occur while you are at low health, possibly saving your life. There is a major RNG factor in this logic, putting it on par with the avoidance granted by other tank weapons.

My 2 cents: If you have oodles of threat to spare, use H Crusader's Glory (or whatever the Horde equivalent is). Reg Last Word is inferior to H Bonebreaker Scepter or H Facelifter for a Warrior tank, because of the extra EH on the latter two. It, however, is superior to the 10m LK axe and the non-heroic versions of Bonebreaker and Facelifter.

Of course, you can go on spouting your mouth about how Last Word is so godawful and how only bad tanks are wanting for more threat, to give their DPS more room to breathe in. I can't stop you.

TheYanger
06-12-2010, 02:41 PM
I'm not sure how to respond to this kind of flamboyant ignorance. Threat can certainly be an issue - when Wrathy from Maintankadin notes that he was threatcapping his DPS and needed to swap out some +armor gear for +hit on several fights, you can be sure that not 100% of threat issues stem from lack of knowledge or experience.
...

Of course, you can go on spouting your mouth about how Last Word is so godawful and how only bad tanks are wanting for more threat, to give their DPS more room to breathe in. I can't stop you.

Biting my tongue about whether some poster at Maintankadin is good or not. But yes, threat issues are entirely a player skill issue. And no, I'm not speaking as "OP DK IT SPAM" I'm speaking as a tank in a guild with the luxury of having all four tank classes available, and no threat issues on ANY of them.

I like how you try to insult my guild and healers though instead of actually having a valid argument about why the weapon is good.

Sure not EVERY heal is a holy light, but more often than not, it is. I don't think it's unfair to say that there are two states of damage in ICC when it really counts: Just got hit/almost dead, and very much full. If you're not juggled back to full almost immediately, you're probably either dead, OR you're not getting any heals. That was my point. I don't think this is a bad assumption. Instead you could have simply raised your EH, or even avoidance, and saved yourself the grief. As far as threat goes....LOL!? There are plenty of weapons with things like expertise, hit, strength built into the weapon itself, that aren't completely useless. Crusader's Glory has half the strength on its own, as well as being an absolute beast for EH, Mithrios has a bunch of strength AND expertise, along with solid defensive stats and higher stamina...I mean the idea that you should be gimping your EH for threat is patently ridiculous at this stage in the game. Even Blizz has been quoted as acknowledging that threat is a complete non-issue in raiding right now due to things like tott and MD if you need them.

If you are having threat issues, you're doing something wrong, if you're having threat issues and trying to solve them with Last Word, you're doing two things wrong.

Harmacy
06-12-2010, 03:02 PM
Wow. I'm not insulting your guild, I'm picking apart the (gaping) holes in your logic.

If you read my post, you'd see that I explained why the weapon is good. Go back, re-read it without getting offended, and then post.

Your argument is still non-sensical. The "defensive stats" on Mithrios? What defensive stats? Avoidance? LOL. Mithrios is a damn good weapon, plenty of stam and strength, nice expertise, good weapon speed for a Warrior and of course it's high ilvl so high weapon damage. But if you assign any weight at all to the avoidance on it, you haven't done your research on tank stats.

And again, you are not gimping your EH by taking Last Word. It has a nice chunk of stamina - inferior to some of the other 264 weapons, and less EH than H Crusader's Glory of course, but still it has plenty of stam. Better than the 251 weapons for survival in addition to threat.

And again, threat issues happen. If you're OK with getting every single Tricks in the room that's fine and dandy - some people like to use Tricks for a DPS boost, which can hurt on aggro. Tricks and MD are good threat boosts, but you cannot be wholly reliant on them - if said hunter or rogue dies, are you really going to risk losing aggro to one of the DPS or threatcapping them in the worst possible circumstance (a near-wipe, where every last ounce of DPS matters)?

I don't understand why you are so bent on insulting every single tank who doesn't have a tremendous threat lead. If you are having threat issues, someone IS doing something wrong - possibly you're screwing up the rotation (or priority system in the case of a Warrior tank), possibly your mage is a moron who didn't spec into his threat reduction, or maybe, just MAYBE, you need to get a little more hit rating or gear around threat a little bit.

I'm not arguing that Last Word is the be-all end-all tank weapon. But it is good. Mostly it's a Paladin weapon, but it's pretty good for a Warrior too. If you can't see that because your judgment is too clouded with this "lol if u have threat problems ur bad" mentality, maybe you shouldn't be giving tank advice.

edit: I also think you should look at the healing you recieve during a fight, on your combat log or something. Because you will obviously be surprised at just how much of it is not overheal, and how much of it is "small" healing like HoT ticks or Prayer of Mending.

Another thing to consider - some classes still get benefit from overheal, like a Disc Priest's Divine Aegis and a Resto Druid's Living Seed (granted most trees skip Living Seed in favor of CF in the balance tree).

TheYanger
06-12-2010, 03:29 PM
Avoidance is not as good as EH sure, but I'd damn sure rather have some avoidance than some extra random healer spellpower. If the paladins really needed more spellpower, they could gem for it, the fact that they don't should be pretty telling already in terms of how important it is to keeping a tank up relative to other things they can do.

You're right, it has decent stamina. That's basically all it really has though. As much as everyone likes to ride the 'Stam is god' train, and it IS amazing, it's ridiculous to insinuate that your other stats do not affect your survivability at all. When you're sitting at full health (Presumably a large amount of the time) what does last word's proc do for you? Nothing. Your other stats are still going strong waiting for a swing.

As far as the threat argument goes...There are many levels of granularity between "Did not get a tricks" and "Received every tricks and MD in the raid on cooldown".
If you're having threat issues to where you need every single tricks in the raid, last word isn't giving that to you either. The point is, if you're a little behind on threat, getting a transfer ability every now and then will help you significantly more, I would argue that expertise hit are both more significant for threat as well, but that's just a gut feeling rather than math. I think it's safe to throw the 'threat' argument completely out of the picture when talking about it was the point.

There are plenty of situations where having a last word may be better than your available options, but this is someone with the best EH weapon prior to HLK already in his bags, and it makes the answer pretty clear-cut.

I apologize if I seemed overly inflammatory previously.

Harmacy
06-12-2010, 03:50 PM
There are plenty of situations where having a last word may be better than your available options, but this is someone with the best EH weapon prior to HLK already in his bags, and it makes the answer pretty clear-cut.

I apologize if I seemed overly inflammatory previously.

I'm glad we can agree now :-D

Use H Crusader's Glory if you have no threat issues. If you have threat issues, consider using Last Word, if just for certain situations.

Perhaps use a pure survival enchant on CG, like Blood Draining, and a threat enchant on Last Word, like Accuracy or Mongoose (well, Mongoose doesn't have a great uptime for Warriors but you get the picture). And then swap them in and out as necessary.

At the very least, hold on to Last Word for Sindragosa where that armor and avoidance will do very little for your survival.

Of course, this whole argument is pretty moot if you can get a hold of H Facelifter...

Bodasafa
06-12-2010, 04:55 PM
I'm not sure how to respond to this kind of flamboyant ignorance. Threat can certainly be an issue - when Wrathy from Maintankadin notes that he was threatcapping his DPS and needed to swap out some +armor gear for +hit on several fights, you can be sure that not 100% of threat issues stem from lack of knowledge or experience.

Of course, you can go on spouting your mouth about how Last Word is so godawful and how only bad tanks are wanting for more threat, to give their DPS more room to breathe in. I can't stop you.

Its been proven that hit cap, expertise soft cap, and in the same token STR are the bottom of the barrel for threat generation. I would appreciate it if we could have a civil conversation debating the facts instead of using lines like you opened and ended with.

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
2) Spec and Glyphs.
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
4) 26 Expertise Skill.
5) Hit rating.

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2.

Getting on topic the minimal amount of STR you get form this weapon alone probably rates at #6 on this list at the absolute bottom. You could have every rogue and hunter in your raid die and the "threat" you get from Last Word wont help you if you can't get #1 and #2 right.


At the very least, hold on to Last Word for Sindragosa where that armor and avoidance will do very little for your survival.

Sindragosa's melee attacks are just as dangerous as the magic damage going on. Its a combination of both that will kill you, so I fail to see how they - "will do very little for your survival."

Papapaint
06-13-2010, 10:43 AM
Sindragosa's melee attacks are just as dangerous as the magic damage going on. Its a combination of both that will kill you, so I fail to see how they - "will do very little for your survival."

See, I never ever used Last Word at all until H-sindragosa/H-lich king. On heroic sindragosa, it was almost necessary for our first kill. We only had one holy paladin, so the 300 spellpower really did make a huge difference on me being topped off between melee/breaths, considering I was relying on one GCD from one or two healers to keep me alive.

On h-lk, I use it when I'm intervene botting on valk phase. Not only is the extra str/slow speed nice for the damage on the valks, but since I glyph intervene, it really helps me get topped off in between the two hits i'm soaking.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_power_coefficient

You're talking about some classes being able to heal you for almost 600 hp more (before ICC buff) on a single cast, which really isn't anything to sneeze at. When I'm relying on a shaman to keep me up, we're talking almost 900 more hp on his heals when they hit.

Remember that not every fight is multiple healers always available. When you've got 3 healers with unchained magic and 3 more healers trying to keep a raid alive AND a tank, you're not going to have the luxury of "you'll only die if your healers are bad." When you're running 5 healers, two of whom are desperately trying to keep infest under control, one healing a tank, two picked up by valks, it sure is nice to help with the intervene and get topped off quickly.

As with all tank gear, sometimes there's a small niche for something that isn't quite so obvious at first. Gear to the encounter.

Kojiyama
06-13-2010, 11:14 AM
Strength is not an amazing TPS scaler for Warriors, at least, so the proc from a TPS standpoint (considering the other weapons have innate Strength) is not so great. To be honest, it's typically better to use one of the Heroic 10-man ICC weapons for TPS if you are struggling--primarily with The Facelifter's Expertise, which is far more effective for TPS gains for Warriors.

There are certainly decent fights for this weapon--Sindragosa being the main one, which was always the one I used it for back when I got it long ago--but as a general-purpose weapon it has a flawed overall design concept.

Papapaint
06-13-2010, 12:28 PM
There are certainly decent fights for this weapon--Sindragosa being the main one, which was always the one I used it for back when I got it long ago--but as a general-purpose weapon it has a flawed overall design concept.

I definitely agree with this. The problem is that people take the last statement and apply it to every possible use of the weapon and dismiss it as nothing more than a stamina stick.

gacktt
06-14-2010, 02:27 AM
Simple answer is that it's terrible. You're never going to die when you're getting healed because they weren't strong enough, you're going to die from actual gaps in healing (Where last word does nothing for you) or when you just get gibbed straight up (Where it also does nothing for you). The armor will reduce your intake reasonably significantly, the last word will not.


Nothing in ICC can gib you at all this late in the game other than H lk-25 soul reapers which goes through armor anyway. Every heal you get will bring you up that much faster with a last word.

Dragaan
06-14-2010, 02:23 PM
Man, I'm just so sick of blizz making sub-par tank weapons. I'm sick of keeping like 5 weapons on me and swappin them all the time (sometimes mid-fight). Recently, I've just been using my highest iLv tank weapon mainly cause it's such a huge dmg/threat boost compared to the old and tired crusader's glory. There are very few fights that REALLY stress a tank to gear for absolute max survival anyway, and many times it's non-physical (or non-mitigatable) damage that's the threat.

Got SUPER lucky last night and had heroic LK drop TWO of the 284 tank maces, so I'm just usin that at all times now (unless I need to swap to a slow weapon for max dmg/threat at any specific time). Double 284 tank weapons makes for 2 verrrry happy tanks! Prior to that, I've been using heroic last word (both me and our paladin tank used it), and I was pretty satisfied with it overall.

Papapaint
06-14-2010, 03:17 PM
Man, I'm just so sick of blizz making sub-par tank weapons. I'm sick of keeping like 5 weapons on me and swappin them all the time (sometimes mid-fight). Recently, I've just been using my highest iLv tank weapon mainly cause it's such a huge dmg/threat boost compared to the old and tired crusader's glory. There are very few fights that REALLY stress a tank to gear for absolute max survival anyway, and many times it's non-physical (or non-mitigatable) damage that's the threat.

Got SUPER lucky last night and had heroic LK drop TWO of the 284 tank maces, so I'm just usin that at all times now (unless I need to swap to a slow weapon for max dmg/threat at any specific time). Double 284 tank weapons makes for 2 verrrry happy tanks! Prior to that, I've been using heroic last word (both me and our paladin tank used it), and I was pretty satisfied with it overall.

Talking about switching weapons...

Currently, working on h-lk, I use Ardent Guard for p1 (adds), swap to bonebreaker scepter for transitions, and use last word during p2. The survivability difference between the weapons is minimal, but each acts very differently during the different phases.