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Squirrelnut
12-23-2009, 03:36 PM
I think it is fairly clear that the Anub'arak ad tanking set that many of us have created would not be a viable choice for tanking Deathbringer Saurfang BUT.....

What about using 3 tanks: 2 for boss tanking swaps back and forth on Rune of Blood (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72448) and having a 3rd unhittable tank on the ads? Here are some assumptions / questions to determine whether this would be possible:


Fight mechanics description of the Saurfang gaining Blood Power (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72371) is through Blood Link (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72178) which only happen when he or his ads cause damage.
The TankSpot video mentioned that all damage was physical in this fight and thus amplify magic could be used. If that is the case then theoretically an unhittable Prot Warrior could avoid/block/mitigate all ad attacks?
How much damage do the ads do? I was under the impression that their damage was not that high which would make it feasible for an Anub'arak unhittable ad tank geared Warrior with 3k+ block value to not ever be touched when tanking the ads?
If in fact this is all possible and Saurfang does not gain Blood Power if the ads aren't able to cause damage to their tank then you could simply have the unhittable tank AOE & stun the ads in place as they spawn

Thunderclap -> Shockwave -> Shield Block -> Shield Slam & Spam Cleave as well as Conc Blow and Thunderclap/Shockwave as they come up


Again assuming the above info is possible then instead of having ranged kite and single target the ads down you could have all your DPS (including melee) AOE everything down as soon as the ad tank has some aggro.

Everything hinges upon a few key questions


Are all ad attacks completely physical?
How hard do the ads hit?
Does Saurfang gain blood power if an attack is completely avoided or blocked?


It would be nice to see another use for the unhittable set again so I thought I would at least bring it up to see what people think.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 03:41 PM
Fascinating postulation Squirrel... The only problem I'd see is AoE threat could be a little meh, so probably drop a frost trap anyways, but that's what taunts are for.

The other question is: is dropping a DPS for a tank a good call in terms of fighting through the soft enrage.

Squirrelnut
12-23-2009, 03:49 PM
Definitely threat could be an issue but if you start out with thunderclap/shockwave you get decent burst aggro and with all ranged/melee aoeing I expect they would be destroyed fairly quickly. Also, being a Prot Warrior you could throw Vigilance on one of the boss tanks to give yourself free taunts with the added bonus of them taking less damage (just make sure the Vigilance target is not the first one on the boss so that tanks get a nice threat lead over DPS)

With regard to dropping a DPS to tank role I would tend to think it would make no difference or even IMPROVE DPS on the boss since so much time is taken and DPS lost having all ranged kite/burn ads. If your guild is a little lacking in the intelligence department (like mine) they have a tendency to get hit by the ads so this would also reduce the number of Marks going out and make healers lives 100 times easier (potentially to the point that you could switch a healer to a DPS role).

Irat
12-23-2009, 03:51 PM
Problem is Squirrel they have a 95% reduction to AoE damage, so thunderclap and shockwave are going to give you bugger all threat.

Squirrelnut
12-23-2009, 03:53 PM
True but at the same time a small advantage to being a Prot Warrior is our stupid 'baked in threat' mechanic (which I generally hate). Unlike most other tank classes much of our threat is based off the ability and not just the amount of damage it does.

Not to mention have all your hunters/rogues MD etc and send everything your way

EDIT: It might be a completely lost cause but if threat is the only concern I would think you could find a way to do it. The real limiting factor would be whether Saurfang gets the blood power from them or not.

squats
12-23-2009, 03:57 PM
you would need to make up 20% avoidance and thats just not do-able.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 03:58 PM
you would need to make up 20% avoidance and thats just not do-able.

I keep forgetting about that, but you make it up with shield block. Like... you can have 14 seconds of not being hit at all. Spawn -> shockwave -> shield block. The question really comes down to if you can hold threat.

Irat
12-23-2009, 03:58 PM
you would need to make up 20% avoidance and thats just not do-able.

True, probably still doable for a Pally in a heavy BR set.

squats
12-23-2009, 04:04 PM
True, probably still doable for a Pally in a heavy BR set.

A pally defiantly wouldnt be able to do it because they only gain 30% block from holy shield. if we do what agg suggests you would need to kill the mobs while the (warrior) tank has shield block up. thats an idea. now we need to know if he gains blood power through avoided attacks.

pretty easy to do just pop shield block and look. maybe we can try next week.

EDIT: on this note. we dont know how he will work on heroic yet, but, at the moment having ranged burn down the targets as-is isnt an issue already as long as you have 2-3 ranged that are focusing them.

Squirrelnut
12-23-2009, 04:05 PM
I suppose it might come down to the amount of time it takes for the ads to die. Shockwave / Shield Block / Trinket

Also trinkets could potentially provide some help for the lost 20% for a certain amount of time? Heart of Iron is around 11%, Royal Seal of King Lane is around 7.75%, Monarch Crab, etc

EDIT: All else fails if ads aren't dead at the end of Shockwave (4 seconds) / Shield Block (10 seconds) you could intervene to one of the ranged and kite for the last few seconds as they die. The whole 20% thing really did ruin my initial hope for the idea tho :( lol

squats
12-23-2009, 04:15 PM
We can assume that blocked hits dont generate blood power already because we already know that if a disc priest puts shields on the raid these abilities no longer generate blood power.

Boiling Blood - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72385)
Blood Nova - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72380)
Blood Nova - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72380)

well.. you get it. as long as the shield is able to shield all of the damage from the target, he doesnt gain blood power. so we can assume that it works the same for blood beasts as long as the tank has enough block value to shield the hit

Squirrelnut
12-23-2009, 04:20 PM
Any idea how much the beasts hit for?

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 04:20 PM
Not to mention have all your hunters/rogues MD etc and send everything your way

We have too many people with alts, we have 3 main rogues and 4 offspec rogues. We've been splitting our ICC25 man clears, and so in 1 raid we had 1 main and 3 alt rogues. When all 3 of them and a hunter tricks'd/MD'd me, I had over 20k TPS, It was almost stupid.

squats
12-23-2009, 04:21 PM
Any idea how much the beasts hit for?
i will look at last nights parse.. im sure somone got melee'd by it

the average over 19 hits was about 4k

Squirrelnut
12-23-2009, 04:27 PM
Looks like our guild was similar, 18 hits with an average damage of 4666.1

EDIT:
Compared with Anub'arak ads from a previous log, average damage from them was 8169.6 so if my block value prevents them touching me the blood beasts should be no problem. It is just a matter of killing them before shield block wears off since the stupid 20% dodge reduction kills our avoidance.

EDIT2: How much health does each ad have? If we think our block value prevents us being hit and MD/tricks gives us aggro then it is really just whether they die in about 14 seconds considering Shockwave/Shieldblock and perhaps cheat and throw in a warlock stun or two. Also Conc Blow and imp revenge helps stun any stragglers for some additional time.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 04:49 PM
it's it like 200k in 25 man?

Squirrelnut
12-23-2009, 04:59 PM
So if we guesstimate 5x blood beasts with 200k each that is about 1mil hp. If you look at maybe 16 DPSers in a 25m raid that is about 62,500 damage needing to be done by each person. If you are trying to get all the beasts down in 14 seconds that is about 4.5k DPS per person?

Doesn't sound unreasonable; considering the time it takes to target, attack, reaction time, etc probably closer to 5.5k DPS required per person. Definitely doable in ToC / ICC gear I would think. That doesn't count AOE but we do know that they have "Resistant Skin" (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72723) which reduces AOE damage by 95% and damage from diseases by 70% so I prefer to not rely on any AOE damage.

EDIT: The only info I see on wowhead about them (http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=38508) says their health is 90,997-100,096... do we know if they are really 200k in 25m?

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 05:02 PM
It sounds doable, but is it optimal. And it really hinges on if blocked attacks add a BP.

Squirrelnut
12-23-2009, 05:14 PM
Yep... but considering the alternative is having a bunch of hunters/boomchickens/etc running around bumping into people and getting hit 15-20 times per attempt (for my guild at least, sigh) I think it might be a viable option as long as blocked attacks don't give him BP.

squats
12-23-2009, 05:18 PM
i guess its usefulness would be different from guild to guild. Me and agg dont have the same issue you do. maybe you can try it out next week and see if it works for you.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 05:21 PM
Correction squts: it's not a problem in normal mode. I personally get a little edgy at how many marks we get, though it's still few enough to be managable and we have absurd raid healers.

squats
12-23-2009, 05:27 PM
for heroic we would (presumably) need to work around this
Scent of Blood - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72769)

im not really sure if "their" would mean the blood beats or the players around them.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 05:34 PM
ya... I'd guess it's the blood beasts, in which case, that is a bit of a problem, I think a warrior in SBV gear with shield wall could absorb all that damage, so it might be better for a warrior to tank it and the ranged just HAVE to dps it down quickly.

Edgewalker
12-23-2009, 09:17 PM
I fail to see any advantage to AoE tanking them, besides making a trivial encounter a lot more difficult.
Even on hard mode, it's clear that focused targetting and well managed micro is the key to success... not another gimmick set.

squats
12-23-2009, 09:38 PM
yeah, agg, i dont think it would be possible on heroic because they will be hitting very hard, 12k ish.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 10:08 PM
and yeah, agg, i dont think it would be possible on heroic because they will be hitting very hard, 12k ish.

Well after expose armor the anub adds hit for about that unmittigated, so I don't think it's unreasonable.

However, even if it is a bit on the harsh and blunt side... Edgewalker may be right. I still think it's an interesting idea though.

Ohkay
12-23-2009, 10:55 PM
You might be able to pull it off with a piercing howl spec. Shield block then shockwave then piercing howl and book it.

Satorri
12-24-2009, 07:05 AM
I'm trying to catch up with this thread, apparently I missed most of the discussion yesterday. =)

Let me see if I can sum up the idea and highlight what I think are the pivotal trade-offs.

The idea is to (on 25-man, I'm assuming), pull out a third tank with an unhittable set. The idea being that then the adds can *hopefully* be full-blocked and reliably feed DBS no Blood Power while they're being killed?

Initially you were saying to AoE nuke them down, but it's been said they are heavily AoE resistant, so they'll still have to be focused down, right?

Second issue, the unhittable set has to overcome another 20% to work. Is that actually reachable by anyone? 121.6% miss+dodge+parry+block? Maybe in t10 with lots of setup for a Paladin? Probably not a warrior, so it requires your team to have an unhittable Paladin on call.

Third problem, are you really gaining anything? You lose a dps to make add management a little easier? Rather than relying on your team to kite, you can just adhere the adds to a tank.

The key to execution of DBS is to have everyone on point. The tanks swap sharp and fast. The whole team works together to juggle, taunt, and root/snare the adds as they are nuked down.

*If* you can build this unhittable set under Chill, then I think it could make your fight a little more idiot-proof, but I think if your team already has challenges with that sort of coordination, maybe you're going to suffer the loss of focused dps?

Biigfoot
12-24-2009, 12:56 PM
I'm not entirely sure I understand the benefits of this strategy as opposed to having hunters drop traps and Death Knights using Chains of Ice on as many as they can, considering that Chains of Ice may now be active on multiple targets at once I can't see how this strat would be beneficial in any way when compared to the current accepted strats for this encounter.

Furthermore adding an extra tank than generally required is detrimental to most content currently out as it takes a DPS spot out of the raid group. I think 1 more dps with an aoe spell would be better than another tank in a block set.

TLDR: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Vlad
12-27-2009, 03:58 PM
There is an easier way of dealing with the adds, this is how we do it:
Holy pally stands at the back of the room generating a ton of healing threat through righteous fury
Hunters prep the kite area with slowing traps just before the spawn
Adds spawn and are immediately chained by DK's (you can get 2 to 3 adds chained with just one DK, most raids will have more than one)
Ranged split dps focus left and right, DK's keep spamming chains on adds moving too fast
Rinse/repeat
AOE threat can be a problem because there is a small bug where heart strike's off strike dmg can hit an add for the full amount as they phase in, also heals on tanks or melee that count as a self heal can also generate aggro which is why the RF pally is so useful.

It's busy but the boss is actually not a dps race, even though it feels that way :)
Can't wait to see this guy in hard mode.. that's gonna be some craziness.

edit: oh there is another cute trick you can do on the adds, taunt bouncing them if the get too close to healers (their usual targets) and hoping the ranged are switched on enough to kill them before they get back to you.
I must say one the busiest fights I've ever had was tanking saurfang in 10's, double chaining the adds with taunt bounces because we had no real ranged (melee had to kill them without being touched) all the while keeping my threat up with no aoe and getting the boss taunt rotation right.
Oh yeah, I play with one arm... Sheesh!

Satorri
12-28-2009, 07:09 AM
You know a funny quirk about Paladin healing threat I only learned this year (though it apparently goes back to Vanilla)?

If you apply Righteous Fury, Healadins should only be doing roughly the same healing threat as every other sort of healer.

Normally, healing threat is cut in half right? For Paladins healing threat is cut to a quarter (in theory to make it so a Paladin couldn't hold threat combining Righteous Fury with heals). So, using Righteous Fury (double threat, roughly) should only counter that extra reduction.

Here's another small problem there. Healing threat is split over the targets available. That means on DBS10 you're splitting that threat 3 ways (2 adds + DBS). So, if there is no other threat, that Pally healing threat will register for the adds, but it will be measly compared to focused dps.

I do like the idea though and like you described, I do prefer kiting and taunt dancing them. As a tank I'll usually wait for them to get close to their target then taunt them so they swing around (usually followed by Chains of Ice so they're stuck in place for a while but not rooted so they don't attack anyone in melee range).


On the original topic though, has anyone tried this, has anyone succeeded at tanking them and not feeding BP to DBS?

Edgewalker
12-28-2009, 09:21 AM
Paladins do quite a bit more threat than other healers with RF, a lot of it also has to do with the nature of their heals and passive talents available to other healers.

Satorri
12-28-2009, 09:22 AM
Perhaps Illumination is a big culprit as well. Haven't checked the resources, but if those power gains generate the usual threat, that'd be pretty heavy regardless of effectiveness of healing.

Edgewalker
12-28-2009, 09:45 AM
Yea, I don't really pay attention to the actual values, I just know that it is pretty noticeable as a tank when a paladin healer has RF on during fights with fresh add spawns. My original strategy for Saurfang used an RF paladin behind frost traps, and it works pretty flawlessly if they throw in a consecration right before the spawn time. Still more complex than it needs to be though in the long run. All about DPS coordination ^^

Vlad
12-28-2009, 02:12 PM
Yeah we decided to try the RF thing because it's a strat we used on some old skool boss that I can't remember right now, and because it got them going in the direction we wanted at the time.
You're right about coordination being the key though, the problem is we tend to carry 5 - 10 undergeared/inexperienced raiders to our 25's.. for example one of the mages decided he'd frost nova the adds, not a bad thought but he did it right where they spawned.. thuper!
Our 10's on the other hand seem easier to coordinate, probably because the 10 team I'm in has been together since ZA hards so you get used to each other.
Are 10's killing 25's? hmm

Skulltar
12-28-2009, 10:48 PM
I was on my shaman the other day in a 25 man icc. For DBS they had the back left blood beast get taken out by melee. They would do pali hammer or rogue lock it and all melee would burn it down before it was unstunned. Now one less add being kited and it seemed to work really well.