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Martie
12-22-2009, 08:38 PM
People use the term cap a lot.
People use the term cap wrong a lot.

This post will explain all caps important to tanks, and the proper use of the term.

Please note that all numbers given are against boss mobs, and a level 80 player.

The Term Cap
The term stems from filling a bottle to the cap. Once you do that, no more will fit in, you will have reached the cap. It works the same way for WoW ratings. Once you have reached the cap, extra of that rating will just flow over and be useless.
Many ratings have a 'soft' cap and a 'hard' cap. After you reach the soft cap in these ratings, more of that rating will not give you more of one of the benefits from that rating. This is not the same as diminishing returns.
An example of this is expertise rating, which reduces the chance of being parried and dodged. Removing your chance to be dodged is reached at a lower rating then removing your chance to be parried. So there is a soft cap which removes dodge, and a hard cap that removes both dodge and parry. Another example of this is hit rating. There are seperate values of hit for always hitting with single weapon auto attacks and special skills, always hitting with spells, and always hitting with auto attacks when dual wielding.
Soft caps are often named after what they accomplish. Thus, the dodge cap for expertise is the point where you no longer get dodged. Spell hit cap is another example of such naming for a soft cap.

Needing Caps
Before listing all the various caps, I want to adress the idea that tanks need to reach caps.
Tanks do not need to reach any cap unless the encounter demands it.
In general, caps do very little for tanks. Most simply increase threat done, and as such are not needed.
Of course, some fights may require you to reach certain caps. Refer to the tactics for the fight in question when this is the case.

The List

Defense
I will start with this. This is NOT a cap. You need enough defense to ensure you never suffer a critical strike from the mobs you are fighting. The total amount of critical strike reduction needed is 5.6%, add up all sources of critical strike reduction you have to see if you have enough. If you have no resilience or other sources of critical strike reduction, you need 540 defense skill for that. This could be considered a soft cap, but there is one huge difference between a minimum and a cap. You end at the cap - if there is a cap you need, you should work to get to it, and not pass it. You start at the minimum - without it, you shouldn't even be tanking the boss.
You also get a decent amount of avoidance from defense in the form of parry, dodge and being missed chance. While actual numbers vary due to diminishing returns and such things, you should be getting more avoidance then parry rating, but slightly less then dodge rating. Paladins and Warriors even get a slight boost in block chance from defense rating. Because of this, getting more defense is always an improvement.

Hit Cap
There are several different hit caps.


The melee hit cap causes all your single weapon auto attacks to always hit and causes all special melee attacks to always hit. This is reached at 8%.
The spell hit cap causes all your spells to always hit. This is reached at 17%.
The dual wield hit cap causes all your dual wield auto attacks to always hit. This is reached at 27%


Hit is almost a pure threat stat, it causes your attacks to hit more, and thus it makes you do more threat. There should be a reasonable amount of hit available on tank gear, but you shouldn't gem or enchant for it.
The only time you should ever worry about hit caps is if you need to taunt something. If you glyph taunt, and the boss is properly debuffed (Improved Faerie Fire - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=33602) or Misery - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=33193)), you need 6% additional spell hit chance to always hit with yout taunt. This is 158 hit rating.

Note that taunt is based off of spell hit, and that you get more spell hit chance from your rating then that you get melee hit chance.

Expertise Cap
Expertise governs two things. The chance a mob has to dodge you and the chance a boss has to parry you.

You negate the mobs chance to dodge you when you reach 6.5% dodge and parry reduction at 26 expertise skill.
You negate the mobs chance to parry you when you reach 14% dodge and parry reduction at 56 expertise skill.


(Note that rating and skill are not the same - your expertise rating grants you expertise skill.)

Expertise is mostly a threat stat. It governs your melee attacks, and since those connect more, you do more threat. Quite a few skills are unaffected by expertise since they cannot be dodged or parried, and expertise has no effect on spells. Many tanks swear by reaching the expertise soft cap. Since it reduces two chances (both dodge and parry) before getting there, expertise is a rather powerful threat stat, but you don't need to reach it. Since most bosses get a quicker melee attack when they parry, expertise can also slightly reduce incoming damage and reduce spike damage taken.

A note on hit and expertise.
For both hit and expertise, the general thing to remember is this: "If you do enough threat, you don't need more of them. It is important, though, to realize that having more of either of them will make your threat less spiky. While this effect is minor, having a string of misses at the beginning of a fight can cause someone to grab aggro.
My advice would be to not worry about getting to either cap, but not completely ignoring the stat either. Gemming or enchanting for hit or expertise shouldn't be needed.

Parry, Dodge and Being Missed Caps
These are theoretical caps - points where your parry, dodge and being missed chances are so high that adding to the stat will not give you more.
These are so ridiculously high that they cannot be attained currently, nor do I think they ever will be. You can ignore them.

Block Cap
The block cap is the point where your combined avoidance and chance to block is so high that you will block each and every frontal blockable attack. This is reached at 102.4% combined avoidance and block.
The block cap is easily attainable for paladins using holy shield. Warriors can attain it, but shouldn't worry about it. Many people seem to think that blocking every blow is a paladin niche for tanking, and as such that paladins should do their best to get it. I disagree with these people. For the most part, block rating gives so little effective damage reduction that it is not a stat worth going for. If it happens to be on an upgrade, that's nice, but never worry about it.
It is important to note that block really shines against weaker mobs. The lower damage a blow does, the higher the effect of a blocked blow. Especially on melee adds and trash, block is exceptional, to the point where someone who is at the block cap can tank adds without taking noticable damage. While it is a funny effect to see, gearing up to tank adds is a silly concept. Gear up to tank the boss - if you can tank that, the adds won't pose a problem.
Obviously, only warriors and paladins can reach this cap.

Block Value Cap
Both shield-users have an ability to hit a mob with their shield. Both of these are high-threat moves that use block value as their main damage stat. There is a cap on the amount of damage that you gain from block value on these moves, namely 2760 block value. Note that these abilities get some base damage, and that percentual modifiers come after the cap is applied, so you will be doing considerably more damage then the block value cap with these moves. This cap only applies to damage done, not damage blocked - there is no cap on the amount of damage you can block. In a standard tanking set, you shouldn't reach this cap.

Avoidance Cap
The avoidance cap refers to the point where your combined dodge, parry and chance to be missed is so high that you will never be hit by an avoidable attack. This is reached at 101.8% combined avoidance.
While this cap is mostly theoretical at the moment, I think we may see people able to reach it when (stacking cooldowns together) before Cataclysm hits. It looks to be a lot of fun to get to this cap, but I doubt it will have much use, since you need to sacrifice so much to gain it that it will be little more then a novelty.

Armor Cap
Armor reduces the amount of physical damage taken by a percentage, and there is a maximum percentage of armor damage reduction, namely 75%. At 49.905 armor, bosses will have 75% of their physical damage mitigated.
Currently, it's not possible to reach the armor cap passively. With the right gear set, some cooldowns, procs and/or consumables, you can reach it. I consider armor to be one of the most important stats a tank has, as it increases your effective health and makes your easier to heal, and it makes shield blocks more potent. There is, however, considerable discussion on the value of armor, as it only works against physical damage, and not against all physical damage. The consensus is "more is better, but not at any cost."
Under normal circumstances you should not hit this cap, and you shouldn't worry about it too much. When you get too close, you could consider changing some trinkets.

Resistance Cap
Your resistance to a particular school of magic determines two things. It determines what percentage of magic damage of that school you are likely to resist and the chance of binary spells being effective. Bosses generally don't have resistable binary spells.
As tanks you can basically ignore resistances unless the fight calls for it. With very few exceptions, there are three types of magic damage you will face while raiding, raid-wide magic damage, tank-specific magic damage and raid-wipe magic damage. Raid-wide magic damage is intended to hit all raiders, and while it may pose a threat to them, tanks have a lot more health and passive damage reduction, so they can basically ignore it. Tank-specific magic damage needs a counter, either by interrupting the cast, using a cooldown or doing something fight-specific. Raid-wipe magic damage does just that, it wipes the raid. You shouldn't get hit by it, and if you do you should die.
Resistance prevents damage at 10% intervals, so it can prevent 20% or 30% of damage taken, but not 25%. Your resistance determines how much is prevented, and there are several brackets of damage reduction open to each level of resistance. (So at 180 resistance, you will prevent either 10%, 20%, 30% or 40% of all damage.) The average damage resisted can be calculated by x/x+510, where x is your resistance, which tells us that there is a sort of diminishing returns for resistance. (Remember, against a boss mob.)
It is currently unknown if there is a cap to resistance, but if there is it isn't reasonably reachable. You don't need to worry about resistances, but remember that there are plenty of fights where resistance may help (depending on your raids gear level and familiarity with the fight.)



That's all the caps that affect a tank at.

ps. If I missed something or made an error, feel free to point it out and I'll amend my post.

Hammerfists
12-22-2009, 11:44 PM
Nicely done Martie I'm going to sticky this.

zaubade
12-22-2009, 11:49 PM
very nicely done.. I now have a post to send peeps to to explain why I am exasperated with there cap statements.

protonly
12-23-2009, 04:56 AM
Excellent work. I'm bookmarking this since I can never remember all the numbers and this is the only place where ALL the "cap" information is contained within one easy to read (with no fluff) page.

Satorri
12-23-2009, 06:15 AM
May ratings have a 'soft' cap and a 'hard' cap. After you reach the soft cap in these ratings, more of that rating will give you a lot less effect.

For clarity, I'd suggest adjusting the wording here to, "beyond the soft cap you stop getting one of the benefits of that rating." Rather than just saying you get a "lot less." Cap, as a term, means that some part or all of the rating is now doing nothing by adding more. Soft cap means that it is only ceasing to add one of multiple values. A hard cap means it is adding nothing more at all. The rest explains this well, but I'm nitpicking your summaries. =)


Spell hit cap is another example of such naming for a soft cap.
Well, technically the spell hit cap will be the hard cap of hit for most people. Only dual wielders will have more value for hit.



Tanks do not need to reach any cap unless the encounter demans it.
In general, caps do very little for tanks. Most simply increase threat done, and as such are not needed.
I don't think you're wrong, but I wanted to editorialize a little.

You're not generally getting any more value from pushing to or over the hit cap, say, than if you are a bit shy. Hit rating is still giving you the same value. It can be nice for reliability.

On reliability that is where DKs may find these caps very aesthetically appealing. Missing with rune abilities can really cramp your rotation/cast sequence, though it won't necessarily actually provide any more threat, it will just be reliable.



Parry, dodge and being missed caps.
These are theoretical caps - points where your parry, dodge and being missed chances are so high that adding to the stat will not give you more.
These are so ridiculously high that they cannot be attained currently, nor do I think they ever will be. You can ignore them.
Funny thing, you would sooner pass 100% avoidance than get near this asymptotic area (miss "cap" is 16%, dodge "cap" is 88%, and parry "cap" is 47%, all rounded off).



The block cap is the point where your combined avoidance and chance to block is so high that you will block each and every frontal blockable attack.
This is reached at 102.4% combined avoidance and block.
Nitpicking again. The cap is based on the level of your opponent. Short-hand it is 100% +/- 0.8% per level difference they are above or below you (based on the relative effect of Defense through miss/dodge/parry/block). So, 102.4% is for a level 80 tank vs a level 83 attacker (Raid boss). I know you know this, but I wanted to make sure it was stated here.

Satorri
12-23-2009, 06:16 AM
Also, good job, this is a valuable resource!

Synapse
12-23-2009, 06:35 AM
Avoidance Cap.
The avoidance cap refers to the point where your combined dodge, parry and chance to be missed is so high that you will never be hit by an avoidable attack. This is reached at 102.4% combined avoidance.

While this cap is mostly theoretical at the moment, I think we may see people able to reach it when (stacking cooldowns together) before Cataclysm hits.

While it looks to be a lot of fun to get to this cap, I doubt it will have much use, since you need to sacrifice so much to gain it that it will be little more then a novelty.


That's all the caps that affect a tank at.

ps. If I missed something or made an error, feel free to point it out and I'll amend my post.
101,8% avoidance. The sum must be 100% at level 83, the level gap reduces each stat by 0,6%. So parry+dodge+miss = 100% at level 83, or 101,8% for us mundane level 80s.

jere
12-23-2009, 06:52 AM
Expertise cap
Expertise governs two things. The chance a mob has to dodge you and the chance a boss has to parry you.
You negate the mobs chance to dodge you when you reach 6.5% dodge and parry reduction at 26 expertise skill.
You negate the mobs chance to parry you when you reach 14% dodge and parry reduction at 56 expertise skill.
(Note that rating and skill are not the same - your expertise rating grants you expertise skill.)

Expertise is mostly a threat stat. It governs your melee attacks, and since those connect more, you do more threat. Quite a few skills are unaffected by expertise since they cannot be dodged or parried, and expertise has no effect on spells.

Many tanks swear by reaching the expertise soft cap. Since it reduces two chances (both dodge and parry) before getting there, expertise is a rather powerful threat stat, but you don't need to reach it.

Since most bosses get a quicker melee attack when they parry, expertise can also slightly reduce incoming damage and reduce spike damage taken.

A note on hit and expertise.
For both hit and expertise, the general thing to remember is this: "If you do enough threat, you don't need more of them."
It is important, though, to realize that having more of either of them will make your threat less spiky. While this effect is minor, having a string of misses at the beginning of a fight can cause someone to grab aggro.
My advice would be to not worry about getting to either cap, but not completely ignoring the stat either. Gemming or enchanting for hit or expertise shouldn't be needed.


As a note: Expertise also has some pretty nice survivability bonuses too. We traditionally have though of it as a threat stat, but for some classes (paladins for example), it is a nice boost in survivability, comparable to avoidance in some areas. You should check out Theck's research on it over at Maintankadin (these are true for paladins):



Current conclusions:

* Expertise is about 73% as effective as dodge rating for reducing incoming damage (first link).
* Expertise is about 69% as effective as dodge rating for reducing the number of incoming attacks that connect (also first link).
* Expertise is actually 2x-4x better than dodge at reducing spike damage intake from boss melee attacks, with the added benefit that it preferentially reduces the largest spikes, thus smoothing out our spike damage by reducing the maximum spike size (second link).
* Each point of expertise rating also gives us about 1/3 of a point of STR.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=25611&rb_v=viewtopic

Satrina
12-23-2009, 06:53 AM
Check your PMs, Martie!

Airowird
12-23-2009, 08:45 AM
Devil's Advocate

There is a cap for Defense. Technicly speaking there are even 3 caps.

First cap is the crit cap. Once you hit 0% chance to be crit, you no longer get any extra damage reduction from this part, thus according to your definition a cap. This cap of 140 (for raid bosses and 135 for everything else) defense is the first requirement of a tank and can be achieved by Feral Druids through talents and is usually considered mandatory for tanks.

The second cap is the block chance cap. Defense gives block chance, thus enough defense can get you the 'unhittability' (no normal hits incoming), after which the chance to block incoming attacks actually decreases with more defense (or dodge, parry or to be missed chance)

The third cap is the theoretical cap. When you take the formula for effective avoidance gained from ratings, you can write it as
Effect = C * B / (B + k) which is very similar to the Armor DR formula, with B the avoidance gain before diminishing returns, k the class constant and C the effect cap. This is because when trying to maximize the Effect through changing B, the maximum is only attained when B is infinite, at which point the effect will be equal to C. Realisticly speaking, the cap for B will either be the first number where rounding errors result in Effect = C, or the server's overflow max for the type of number B is stored as.


PS: Don't blame me for the math, I've been studying Math Analysis for the last 4 days.

jere
12-23-2009, 10:44 AM
The third cap is the theoretical cap. When you take the formula for effective avoidance gained from ratings, you can write it as
Effect = C * B / (B + k) which is very similar to the Armor DR formula, with B the avoidance gain before diminishing returns, k the class constant and C the effect cap.

quick correction:

Effect = C * B / (B + C*k)

1/(1/C + k/B) = C / ( 1 + Ck/B) = CB / (B + Ck)

Martie
12-23-2009, 11:45 AM
I made some edits changing pointed out flaws and mistakes - thanks for them, keep it up please.

Some comments I'd like to adress.



Nitpicking again. The cap is based on the level of your opponent. Short-hand it is 100% +/- 0.8% per level difference they are above or below you (based on the relative effect of Defense through miss/dodge/parry/block). So, 102.4% is for a level 80 tank vs a level 83 attacker (Raid boss). I know you know this, but I wanted to make sure it was stated here.
I noted that my numbers were against raid bosses. If you can always block them, you can always block anything. I didn't note that I use a level 80 character... maybe I should add that.


As a note: Expertise also has some pretty nice survivability bonuses too. We traditionally have though of it as a threat stat, but for some classes (paladins for example), it is a nice boost in survivability, comparable to avoidance in some areas. You should check out Theck's research on it over at Maintankadin (these are true for paladins):
I know of the research, I've read it a few times and it surprised me.

I noted that parries increase swing speed timer for the boss, and that should make it clear that expertise is a minor defensive stat. The problem I have with calling it too strong is that Blizzard has a tendency of making bosses where expertise shines for survival immune to parry haste - thus removing the survivability aspect of expertise.

Martie
12-23-2009, 11:48 AM
Devil's Advocate

There is a cap for Defense. Technicly speaking there are even 3 caps.
I disagree - here is why.

First cap is the crit cap. Once you hit 0% chance to be crit, you no longer get any extra damage reduction from this part, thus according to your definition a cap. This cap of 140 (for raid bosses and 135 for everything else) defense is the first requirement of a tank and can be achieved by Feral Druids through talents and is usually considered mandatory for tanks.
This is the crit reduction cap, not the defense cap. You don't have to use defense to get it at all, hence, not a defense cap.

The second cap is the block chance cap. Defense gives block chance, thus enough defense can get you the 'unhittability' (no normal hits incoming), after which the chance to block incoming attacks actually decreases with more defense (or dodge, parry or to be missed chance)
I guess you could consider this a defense soft cap of sorts, but I think that it's a bit silly to do so.


The third cap is the theoretical cap. When you take the formula for effective avoidance gained from ratings, you can write it as
Effect = C * B / (B + k) which is very similar to the Armor DR formula, with B the avoidance gain before diminishing returns, k the class constant and C the effect cap. This is because when trying to maximize the Effect through changing B, the maximum is only attained when B is infinite, at which point the effect will be equal to C. Realisticly speaking, the cap for B will either be the first number where rounding errors result in Effect = C, or the server's overflow max for the type of number B is stored as.


PS: Don't blame me for the math, I've been studying Math Analysis for the last 4 days.
These are the seperate dodge, parry and miss caps - and even there you could say have a seperate defense soft cap for each of them. I think it's better to keep calling them by their own cap names.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 03:02 PM
I agree with Martie, further more I'm not sure it's even possible to get enough defense that you get close enough to the DR curve's limit to make it neglibile.

jere
12-23-2009, 03:32 PM
I know of the research, I've read it a few times and it surprised me.

I noted that parries increase swing speed timer for the boss, and that should make it clear that expertise is a minor defensive stat. The problem I have with calling it too strong is that Blizzard has a tendency of making bosses where expertise shines for survival immune to parry haste - thus removing the survivability aspect of expertise.

The only current bosses that have parries disabled that come to mind are Gormok (and maybe Icehowl). I think they only disable parries on bosses where it is a random tank killer. Most of the ice crown bosses don't fit in that category (has anyone actually checked to see if they are turned off on any ICC bosses?).

I can imagine having less parries on a boss like say Saurfang when he frenzies, is a pretty nice boost to survivability.

Survivability from expertise is a toughie. You don't want to over emphasize it cause a few bosses have it turned off. At the same time you can't really handwave it, because, really, only a few bosses have parries turned of. It doesn't have a 100% coverage, but it does cover the majority of the content we tank. The question is how well/much do you sell it. That's a tough thing to figure out.

Martie
12-24-2009, 03:15 AM
Survivability from expertise is a toughie. You don't want to over emphasize it cause a few bosses have it turned off. At the same time you can't really handwave it, because, really, only a few bosses have parries turned of. It doesn't have a 100% coverage, but it does cover the majority of the content we tank. The question is how well/much do you sell it. That's a tough thing to figure out.
I didn't handwave it - I mentioned it. The scope of the post isn't to go in-depth about the advantages of having high expertise, so mentioning it was enough in my opinion.

The problem I have with overstating it is that it's turned off exactly on those bosses where it would cause a big problem. Gormok and Vezax are bosses where it's turned off, and it's turned off because they have the tendency to twoshot tanks if they get two quick melee attacks. Other bosses don't do that, so the damage spike taken is far less dangerous, to a degree that it's almost ignorable.
I guess it comes down to being parry gibbed. Blizzard appearantly doesn't want this to be a problem, so they don't keep bosses where an untimely parry can kill the tanks.

Martie
12-26-2009, 07:36 AM
Can you imagine I forgot the armor cap?

Well, it's there now. I took the numbers from WoWWiki, I assume they are correct.

Airowird
12-27-2009, 04:25 AM
I guess you could consider this a defense soft cap of sorts, but I think that it's a bit silly to do so.
There's a lot of 'silly' people out there and imo they deserve the same knowledge as the 'normal' people. That and if you're writing a summary, might as well be as complete as possible :)
That said, in hindsight it might be better to point out that Defense merely gives you certain amounts of dodge/parry/block as well as a certain amount of crit reduction and chance to be missed, and that any pivot point in Defense gains are due to the caps from the respective gains from it's effects rather than Defense in itself. Also solves the defense cap/minimum discussion nicely.

Martie
12-27-2009, 06:00 AM
There's a lot of 'silly' people out there and imo they deserve the same knowledge as the 'normal' people. That and if you're writing a summary, might as well be as complete as possible :)
That said, in hindsight it might be better to point out that Defense merely gives you certain amounts of dodge/parry/block as well as a certain amount of crit reduction and chance to be missed, and that any pivot point in Defense gains are due to the caps from the respective gains from it's effects rather than Defense in itself. Also solves the defense cap/minimum discussion nicely.
Yer right, post changed to reflect it.

Tengenstein
12-28-2009, 09:29 AM
There is a Block value Cap according to the charactrt sheet, while constructing a new HC tanking spec i put on all my best Block gear. i qas just shy of 2900BV, with lavanthors talisman (+440 BV) and the autoblocker(+200bv) activated and shield block up, my charcter sheet only recorded a BV of 5600.


now i'm not the greatest at maths but shield block alone should have taken my BV past that.

i have no idea if this means that the Blocked Cap is 5600 for pallies 11.2k for warriors if they get lucky.

Satorri
12-28-2009, 09:42 AM
There is no established cap for Block Value (other than how it is applied to Shield Slam/SoR).

If you want to open it up to testing, I recommend repeating what you're describing, rigorously, and screen shot the changes. If there is such a cap we can figure it out, or otherwise explain what you're seeing.

Murrog
12-29-2009, 06:10 AM
I am glad I found this post, but I still have a question. Specifically, regarding hit. I find my paladin's hit rating sucks--he is running around 4% hit, and that is using a couple of pieces or armor, such as the 232 Onyxia helm and the conquest badge tanking gloves, that I would like to upgrade--except I lose quit a bit of hit. I don't seem to have much trouble holding threat, but is it really a good idea to be sitting at 2-3% hit rating, which is where I would be if I upgraded those items?

And, if hit is important, why can't I find it on paladin tanking gear?

Martie
12-29-2009, 06:41 AM
I am glad I found this post, but I still have a question. Specifically, regarding hit. I find my paladin's hit rating sucks--he is running around 4% hit, and that is using a couple of pieces or armor, such as the 232 Onyxia helm and the conquest badge tanking gloves, that I would like to upgrade--except I lose quit a bit of hit. I don't seem to have much trouble holding threat, but is it really a good idea to be sitting at 2-3% hit rating, which is where I would be if I upgraded those items?

And, if hit is important, why can't I find it on paladin tanking gear?

If you are not running into aggro problems, then you can safely take the upgrades, but I'd hang on to those high-hit items for fights where you can't afford your taunts to miss.

Tengenstein
12-29-2009, 08:11 AM
There is no established cap for Block Value (other than how it is applied to Shield Slam/SoR).

If you want to open it up to testing, I recommend repeating what you're describing, rigorously, and screen shot the changes. If there is such a cap we can figure it out, or otherwise explain what you're seeing.

upon attempting to screenshot it. it does goes above 5600. so i was obviously quite mistaken.

that said something seems a little off, i assume its how things are multiplied together

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/th_Blocknormal.jpg (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/Blocknormal.jpg)http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/th_Blockgnome.jpg (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/Blockgnome.jpg) http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/th_Block2.jpg (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/Block2.jpg)http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/th_Blockall.jpg (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/Blockall.jpg)

From left to right; normal BV (2921), with Autoblocker up(3191), with autoblocker and talisman up(3785), with autoblocker and talisman and shield block up(6589).


so the autoblocker increases gross BV by 270
the Talisman by 594
and the shield block is giving an additional 2804

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/th_shieldblock.jpg (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/Tammuz/block/shieldblock.jpg)

shield block alone seems to only be adding an extra 2164. at first i assumed that this meant that the increase from shield block was applied before the increases in BV from shield mastery, but that doesn't add up either....

i'm very confused now.

Martie
12-29-2009, 01:03 PM
Here's a working explanation.

Flat value are taken, then percentile modifiers are added together and then applied.
It explains why both the trinkets are giving 135% of their listed value, 2921/2164=1.35, 3785/2804=1.35.
The 135% number of course comes from Eternal Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41396) and Shield Mastery - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=29599).

So, we now know a bit more about the mechanics of shield block (it's an additional 100% block value modifier, not a true doubling), and the way that percentile shield block modifiers are handled (added, not multiplied.)

Tengenstein
12-29-2009, 01:50 PM
ah totally forgot i'd bought that meta for the block set, totally forgot it existed

Proletaria
12-30-2009, 11:31 PM
Just to point something out about the armor cap scenario. It is quite possible (within a month or so) for a frost dk who glyphed UBA to armor cap in frost badge gear with a few misc. armor pieces from togc/icc normal mode content.

While it is true, avoiding the glyph, or just avoiding some of the more generous armor gear can side-step this issue, it's worth mentioning as there are more than enough frost-dk fans out there who might blunder into this in the coming months.

Kazeyonoma
12-31-2009, 06:18 AM
BV mechanics and scaling are always fishy, just think of it as multipliers multiplying themselves

SaintVigeous
01-04-2010, 09:14 AM
Regarding the spell hit cap for ensuring taunts:

I put this together for my guild and thought it might be useful info to post somewhere. I apologize if it has been duplicated elsewhere.

Here is how much hit rating you need to ensure a taunt, given various situations:

("Draenei" means "Draenei in party" and "Shadow Priest" can, of course be replaced with "Fairy Fire")

(Oh. And "Glyph" is the warrior version. I have no idea what other classes have)

446 No buffs
420 Draenei
406 Hit Food
380 Draenei, Hit Food
368 Shadow Priest
341 Shadow Priest, Draenei
328 Shadow Priest, Hit Food
301 Shadow Priest, Draenei, Hit Food
237 Glyph
210 Glyph, Draenei
197 Glyph, Hit Food
170 Glyph, Draenei, Hit Food
158 Glyph, Shadow Priest
132 Glyph, Shadow Priest, Draenei
118 Glyph, Shadow Priest, Hit Food
92 Glyph, Shadow Priest, Draenei, Hit Food

Hopefully this helps you set up your gear, groups, food and glyphs to make sure your OT doesn't get annihilated.

Edit: Fixed a slight mix-up

Aggathon
01-04-2010, 01:05 PM
Regarding the spell hit cap for ensuring taunts:

I put this together for my guild and thought it might be useful info to post somewhere. I apologize if it has been duplicated elsewhere.

Here is how much hit rating you need to ensure a taunt, given various situations:

("Draenei" means "Draenei in party" and "Shadow Priest" can, of course be replaced with "Fairy Fire")

(Oh. And "Glyph" is the warrior version. I have no idea what other classes have)

446 No buffs
406 Hit Food
420 Draenei
380 Draenei, Hit Food
368 Shadow Priest
341 Shadow Priest, Draenei
328 Shadow Priest, Hit Food
301 Shadow Priest, Draenei, Hit Food
237 Glyph
210 Glyph, Hit Food
197 Glyph, Draenei
170 Glyph, Draenei, Hit Food
158 Glyph, Shadow Priest
132 Glyph, Shadow Priest, Draenei
118 Glyph, Shadow Priest, Hit Food
92 Glyph, Shadow Priest, Draenei, Hit Food

Hopefully this helps you set up your gear, groups, food and glyphs to make sure your OT doesn't get annihilated.

If jere doesn't include this in his post, I may copy/pasta it into my guide (obviously giving you credit) if that's okay with you.

SaintVigeous
01-04-2010, 02:52 PM
Absolutely. Go right ahead. I'm uh... mostly certain those are right ;)

Edit: Whoops! Nope. Let me fix it up.

Edit: There we are.

Martie
01-04-2010, 03:16 PM
Regarding the spell hit cap for ensuring taunts:

I put this together for my guild and thought it might be useful info to post somewhere. I apologize if it has been duplicated elsewhere.

Here is how much hit rating you need to ensure a taunt, given various situations:

("Draenei" means "Draenei in party" and "Shadow Priest" can, of course be replaced with "Fairy Fire")

(Oh. And "Glyph" is the warrior version. I have no idea what other classes have)

446 No buffs
420 Draenei
406 Hit Food
380 Draenei, Hit Food
368 Shadow Priest
341 Shadow Priest, Draenei
328 Shadow Priest, Hit Food
301 Shadow Priest, Draenei, Hit Food
237 Glyph
210 Glyph, Draenei
197 Glyph, Hit Food
170 Glyph, Draenei, Hit Food
158 Glyph, Shadow Priest
132 Glyph, Shadow Priest, Draenei
118 Glyph, Shadow Priest, Hit Food
92 Glyph, Shadow Priest, Draenei, Hit Food

Hopefully this helps you set up your gear, groups, food and glyphs to make sure your OT doesn't get annihilated.

Edit: Fixed a slight mix-up
While lists like this are helpfull, I decided (after quite a bit of deliberation) to use percentages instead of listing ratings.

The main reason is that there are so damn many effects that can modify these percentages, and making a list like this complete would make the list excessively lengthy, since there are a lot of potentially modifying factors ( Let's start with Virulence - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49568).) I think giving people the percentages and telling them to add things up themelves makes these people smarter in the end - they know why they need a certain amount of hit rating, they don't repeat something they saw somewhere.

Aggathon
01-04-2010, 03:28 PM
hit food is 40 hit? what % is that? If I have that I can work backwards and incorporate percentages in when I post. I will explain why of course, I already have a bit written on the subject in my guide.

SaintVigeous
01-04-2010, 03:32 PM
Snapper Extreme - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42996)
and
Worg Tartare - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44953)

It's about 1.5%

Satorri
01-05-2010, 06:05 AM
1.12% melee, 1.52% spell hit

Another reason it gets a little tricky listing hit ratings required. The list above works because it is for a specific ability. Not a bad idea, though to cover your bases in a guide you may want to make the 2-3 lists required and list which spells/moves it applies to, and make sure to note what kind of target these values are required for.

That is why I prefer to just list the caps and the exchanges, along with the % moves from the various talents, glyphs, and buffs. Like Compression Algorithms, give people the tools to find their location within the system, rather than just drawing the whole system in all its permutations.

Aggathon
01-05-2010, 06:28 AM
1.12% melee, 1.52% spell hit

Another reason it gets a little tricky listing hit ratings required. The list above works because it is for a specific ability. Not a bad idea, though to cover your bases in a guide you may want to make the 2-3 lists required and list which spells/moves it applies to, and make sure to note what kind of target these values are required for.

That is why I prefer to just list the caps and the exchanges, along with the % moves from the various talents, glyphs, and buffs. Like Compression Algorithms, give people the tools to find their location within the system, rather than just drawing the whole system in all its permutations.


Oh... I was going to talk about it JUST in terms of taunt hit. My guide recommends you pretty much ignore hit except for what you can get on gear since it's not especially needed for threat (again, gear/gem for survivability, not hit). I mean I'm currently rolling with 26 expertise and 66 hit and have no threat problems. Sure my threat has seen better days, but if I'm 100k TPS ahead of the highest TPS of a DPS, then what does it matter if I'm doing 9k or 7k? The only reason you would want hit is to ensure that taunts lands. I just wanted a table to show the breakdown of what you would need to ensure your taunt hits every time given various situations.

jere
01-05-2010, 06:36 AM
If jere doesn't include this in his post, I may copy/pasta it into my guide (obviously giving you credit) if that's okay with you.

I would say go ahead and put it in yours then. I am kinda of the same mind as Martie on this one, and my taunt guide really isn't intended to cover how to gear for it, so I probably won't be adding it anytime soon (I could change my mind, but for now, I won't be).

Aggathon
01-05-2010, 07:32 AM
Ya, and I agree to an extent, but I'm wanting to talk just specifically about warrior taunt.

Martie
01-05-2010, 11:43 PM
Ya, and I agree to an extent, but I'm wanting to talk just specifically about warrior taunt.
Which I have no objection to. This thread is for all tanks, though.

Kitatsujin
01-10-2010, 11:48 PM
Thanks a lot this was very elaborate I'm very thankful you took the time to post that it's going to help me and many other tanks out there no doubt, keep up the good work!

Meanmug
01-14-2010, 11:12 PM
"I consider armor to be one of the most important stats a tank has, as it increases your effective health and makes your easier to heal, and it makes shield blocks more potent."


Would you make gear choices based on armor value? What do you think of me wanting to get
Cataclysmic Chestguard - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50968)
and Pillars of Might - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49904) .
Doing so would give me about 2k armor over T10 pieces. But getting both would also keep me from a sweet sounding 4 set bonus(as a warrior). I'm not getting any support in guild about this =(. Any suggestions on how i can apply math to this?

Hammerfists
01-15-2010, 02:15 AM
First off chest sucks theres no dodge or parry on it. you're gaining about 1.5% more to physical reduction with those choices at the expense of avoidence. Dont get me wrong armor is good but we naturally grow with it. get these items if icc radiance leaves you with no dodge other than that dont change anything you have been doing.

Satorri
01-15-2010, 05:17 AM
First off chest sucks theres no dodge or parry on it. you're gaining about 1.5% more to physical reduction with those choices at the expense of avoidence.
You seem to be missing something here.

You trade ~1.5% dodge for ~1.5% damage reduction on physical attacks. Many people would take that trade in a heartbeat, since it is guaranteed on every swing (and popular preference is predictable damage). In the grand average it's the same thing though.

Often times this is the trade we make. Itemization is used to regulate the total value of the stats on a piece. Sometimes your current gear will dictate the relative value of certain stats for you (say, hit capped, expertise starved, etc).



Dont get me wrong armor is good but we naturally grow with it. get these items if icc radiance leaves you with no dodge other than that dont change anything you have been doing.
1.) No one in ICC will have no dodge unless they carefully picked a lot of gear (particularly lower level stuff) that didn't have dodge rating on it.

2.) See above. Dodge or armor, you're not *actually* losing net value, you're shifting it.

Martie
01-15-2010, 08:07 AM
"I consider armor to be one of the most important stats a tank has, as it increases your effective health and makes your easier to heal, and it makes shield blocks more potent."


Would you make gear choices based on armor value? What do you think of me wanting to get
Cataclysmic Chestguard - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50968)
and Pillars of Might - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49904) .
Doing so would give me about 2k armor over T10 pieces. But getting both would also keep me from a sweet sounding 4 set bonus(as a warrior). I'm not getting any support in guild about this =(. Any suggestions on how i can apply math to this?
Oh, definatly yes. I get +armor pieces as my first priority, then I build some additional sets. I want both the armor pieces you linked, and I'll get them once I've saved up for them.

For math to support it, there are several arguments I use to convince people that I am correct. There's the "dodge may prevent damage, armor WILL prevent damage" argument, there's the "armor makes you easier to heal, dodge makes you harder to heal" argument and there's the "effective damage reduction" argument.

DrunkTank
01-15-2010, 10:14 AM
So to clear up an armor question:

We can mitigate up to 75% of physical damage from armor, is this before other damage reducers? Things like D Stance, Ancestral Fortitude and the like?

Or does damage reduction cap at 75% regardless?

Inaara
01-15-2010, 10:21 AM
75% is the cap on armor reduction.

Meanmug
01-15-2010, 10:27 AM
First off chest sucks theres no dodge or parry on it. you're gaining about 1.5% more to physical reduction with those choices at the expense of avoidence. Dont get me wrong armor is good but we naturally grow with it. get these items if icc radiance leaves you with no dodge other than that dont change anything you have been doing.
The big chunk of Defense adds dodge AND parry, and the big numbers on expertise will allow me to itemize other pieces that with exp out for dodge or parry. The big chunk of defense on it also allows the possibility or the crafted boots which have no defense on them.

Martie
01-16-2010, 06:35 AM
First off chest sucks theres no dodge or parry on it. you're gaining about 1.5% more to physical reduction with those choices at the expense of avoidence. Dont get me wrong armor is good but we naturally grow with it. get these items if icc radiance leaves you with no dodge other than that dont change anything you have been doing.
This post actually quite perfectly allows me to illustrate my "effective damage reduction" principle.

The badge chest has 1176 bonus armor. I'll be checking my armor reduction with and without my rings, which give me 1092 armor, close enough for the comparison.

Without the rings, I have 33456 armor, netting me 68.71% physical damage reduction. With the rings, I have 34548 armor, netting me 69.40% physical damage reduction. At first looks, that seems to be only 0.69%, not a lot. But here's where it gets interesting. Now, you calculate how much damage you take, instead of the reduction. That's simple enough, it's 31.29% and 30.60%. Now, if you want to know how much the armor protects you, you should consider your damage taken without the armor as 100% damage, and then calculate what percentage damage you take with the new armor. (Which is simply 100 x 30.60/31.29.)
So you end up with the number 97.79. To then turn it into the effective damage reduction, you simply substract that number from 100, and you end up with 2.21%, which is quite respectable for a measly 1100 armor.

Airowird
01-16-2010, 09:26 AM
Also, 1092 armor = 78 rating worth as stats.
Taking Martie's Armory and chucking in 78 Parry Rating, I get an increase in parry with 1,03%
Min amount of hits taken to make that equal dmg reduction to armor = 1,03/2,21 = 46,6%
That means that he needs 53,4% avoidance total to make that parry equal to the armor in damage reduction.
I count his total avoidance as 54,56% against boss level mobs .... that aren't in ICC. For any ICC boss he would need 19% more avoidance to get to that level, which will severely cut into the parry rating DR as well.
So in this case tha armor gives about 50% more damage reduction than parry rating for the same stat value.
Not to mention that Armor helps increase your EH, while avoidance does not. And finally, healing somebody that takes 5k damage every second is far easier to heal than someone taking 40k once every 10s, even if he takes less DPS overall.

Any more arguments you need to take the armor pieces? :)

Martie
01-16-2010, 12:26 PM
Also, 1092 armor = 78 rating worth as stats.
Taking Martie's Armory and chucking in 78 Parry Rating, I get an increase in parry with 1,03%
Min amount of hits taken to make that equal dmg reduction to armor = 1,03/2,21 = 46,6%
That means that he needs 53,4% avoidance total to make that parry equal to the armor in damage reduction.
I count his total avoidance as 54,56% against boss level mobs .... that aren't in ICC. For any ICC boss he would need 19% more avoidance to get to that level, which will severely cut into the parry rating DR as well.
So in this case tha armor gives about 50% more damage reduction than parry rating for the same stat value.
Not to mention that Armor helps increase your EH, while avoidance does not. And finally, healing somebody that takes 5k damage every second is far easier to heal than someone taking 40k once every 10s, even if he takes less DPS overall.

Any more arguments you need to take the armor pieces? :)
Did you see my nifty cloth 226 hat?

Blue
01-16-2010, 12:39 PM
Armor Cap
Armor reduces the amount of physical damage taken by a percentage, and there is a maximum percentage of armor damage reduction, namely 75%. At 49.905 armor, bosses will have 75% of their physical damage mitigated.
Currently, it's not possible to reach the armor cap passively. With the right gear set, some cooldowns, procs and/or consumables, you can reach it. I consider armor to be one of the most important stats a tank has, as it increases your effective health and makes your easier to heal, and it makes shield blocks more potent. There is, however, considerable discussion on the value of armor, as it only works against physical damage, and not against all physical damage. The consensus is "more is better, but not at any cost."
Under normal circumstances you should not hit this cap, and you shouldn't worry about it too much. When you get too close, you could consider changing some trinkets.

That's all the caps that affect a tank at.

ps. If I missed something or made an error, feel free to point it out and I'll amend my post.


Martie, great post, and very helpful. I just have a question, concerning the underlined part, above. Did you mean "only works against physical damage, and not against magical damage, or what you wrote?

If it's what you wrote, then what physical damage is armor not working to prevent?

Just need a bit of clarification...thanks!;)

jere
01-16-2010, 02:04 PM
There actually isn't exactly a distinction between physical and magic damage. There is a "school" of magic called "physical" if you look at how the game encodes the combat log entries.

For things that armor does not work on that are physical..think Gormok's Impale.

Proletaria
01-16-2010, 10:30 PM
For things that armor does not work on that are physical..think Gormok's Impale.

Are there other 'physical school' spells that ignore armor besides what would usually be termed "bleed effects," in that case?

Martie
01-17-2010, 12:18 AM
Are there other 'physical school' spells that ignore armor besides what would usually be termed "bleed effects," in that case?
When I was writing it, Gormoks impale dot and Auriayas kittens dots were the first in my mind, but I think Algalons Big Bang ignores armor as well.

Airowird
01-17-2010, 07:04 AM
Did you see my nifty cloth 226 hat?
DO YOU LIKE MY HAT???

You started an anecdotal situation, I just extrapolated it :P

Blue
01-17-2010, 12:31 PM
There actually isn't exactly a distinction between physical and magic damage. There is a "school" of magic called "physical" if you look at how the game encodes the combat log entries.

For things that armor does not work on that are physical..think Gormok's Impale.

Ah, ok, I did not know there was another "school" of magic. Always thought of it as just "special" attacks, or immunities.

I was rather hoping it was a typo, though...;)

Thanks!

Martie
01-17-2010, 12:49 PM
Ah, ok, I did not know there was another "school" of magic. Always thought of it as just "special" attacks, or immunities.

I was rather hoping it was a typo, though...;)

Thanks!
Seeing 'physical' as one of the schools of magic (others are shadow, holy, nature, fire, frost and arcane) is a reasonable thing to do, just remember that it is a very specific school of magic then - there is no physical resistance (other then armor, which is a different mechanic), and the level-based resistance bosses have is different.

Treating it like a school of magic is debatable - people will disagree with you, so be prepared for that.
Hrm, this reminds me of something I need to add to the original post.

Aggathon
01-17-2010, 12:58 PM
I have a question about the armor cap. I was doing gunship, and was using *cringe* eitrigg's oath. I used the on use while tanking and I had about 37k armor unbuffed. Eitrigg's actually proc'd a lot, but the armor on my tooltip capped out at 41,700 armor and even when I got another stack of Eitrigg's, it didn't go up any more. Is 41,700 the real cap? I got all 5 stacks so I should have been around 44k armor. What gives? I'll try to replicate it again and post SS's or a log or something.

Martie
01-17-2010, 01:46 PM
I have a question about the armor cap. I was doing gunship, and was using *cringe* eitrigg's oath. I used the on use while tanking and I had about 37k armor unbuffed. Eitrigg's actually proc'd a lot, but the armor on my tooltip capped out at 41,700 armor and even when I got another stack of Eitrigg's, it didn't go up any more. Is 41,700 the real cap? I got all 5 stacks so I should have been around 44k armor. What gives? I'll try to replicate it again and post SS's or a log or something.
Interesting.

I didn't know this effect existed, I need to do some testing to see what the effects are. I see two possibilities for this, either there's a hard cap on armor at 75% equal-level reduction, or there's some form of hidden modifier from raid bosses. Now, all I need is an easy raid boss where this is testable on.

Just did some testing, it took my armor to 45.5k as it should have. (Which put me at 74.92% reduction.)
Did another test, this time it took me to over 47k. Sadly, I wasn't fast enough to check the tooltip for it, maybe another time.
Is it possible that something else caused the armor mishap (like losing a devotion aura), or that you saw something wrong?
http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/15489/large/1_high_armor_me.JPG

Aggathon
01-17-2010, 03:19 PM
Interesting.

I didn't know this effect existed, I need to do some testing to see what the effects are. I see two possibilities for this, either there's a hard cap on armor at 75% equal-level reduction, or there's some form of hidden modifier from raid bosses. Now, all I need is an easy raid boss where this is testable on.

Just did some testing, it took my armor to 45.5k as it should have. (Which put me at 74.92% reduction.)
Did another test, this time it took me to over 47k. Sadly, I wasn't fast enough to check the tooltip for it, maybe another time.
Is it possible that something else caused the armor mishap (like losing a devotion aura), or that you saw something wrong?
http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/15489/large/1_high_armor_me.JPG

idk, maybe... I was jumping to the other ship so if the other tank was moving around it might have dropped for a brief moment...

GravityDK
01-18-2010, 03:44 AM
Further to the avoidance value of expertise, that Jere referenced earlier, Theck has worked out (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=25611&rb_v=viewtopic) the values for other classes too.


For Icecrown Citadel, expertise is roughly 91% as effective as dodge rating for reducing incoming damage, assuming a boss swing speed of 1.4 seconds (after JotJ). It varies significantly with boss attack speed though, from 78% @ 1.2 to 154% @ 2.4 speed.
For Warriors, this range narrows to 52-102%, with an "average" of 60% at 1.4-speed.
For Druids, it's 49-98%, with an "average" of 60%
For Death Knights, the range becomes 36-71%, with an "average" of 46%.
For bosses outside of Icecrown, we would use an average swing speed of around 2.0, giving average values of 87% for paladins (53%-104% range), 57% for warriors (30%-69%), 56% for druids (28%-68%), and 29%-45% for Death Knights (28%-52%).

All of these can be seen in the plots in the "results" section.
Each point of expertise rating (above the soft-cap) also gives a Paladin about 60% the threat that a point of STR would.

Rizilliant
04-08-2010, 11:33 AM
Now correct me if im wrong, but ive been told (since WotLK) that the DR of BV began at 30 x [player level], and the hard "cap" came at 34.5x[player's level]....is this information incorrect>? i though u could only mitigate so much incoming damage via a block>?

P.S. relinking from an earlier Jere post of the parry haste enabled bosses... Icc being Lady Deathwhisper,and Sindragosa...And ToC i belive it was only NR Beasts here (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=27934&rb_v=viewtopic).

jere
04-08-2010, 03:44 PM
Now correct me if im wrong, but ive been told (since WotLK) that the DR of BV began at 30 x [player level], and the hard "cap" came at 34.5x[player's level]....is this information incorrect>? i though u could only mitigate so much incoming damage via a block>?

That formula only applies to Shield Slam and Shield of Righteousness

The way it works is that it starts at 30*Player Level, and the "end resultant block" tapers off at 34.5*player level.

So BV stays the same till 2400. After that, it is reduced by a quadratic formula that approaches 2760. So if you manage to get 2760 BV from gear, it might only give you say 2600 BV for the purposes of SS or ShoR. Gong to 2800 BV from gear might only give you 2625 BV towards SS and ShoR. So you can still get stuff out of more than 2760 BV, but it gets severely diminished (not for defensive purposes though...untouched there). For the sake of example, say you reached 3000 BV and it gave you 2760 for SS, then anymore BV from gear would only give you 2760 as well (so 3100, 3200, 3500, 9999999 BV, etc. all would give 2760).

Those are made up numbers by the way. I don't have an updated chart for that stuff anymore after they changed the equation.

Andenthal
04-08-2010, 04:23 PM
Avoidance Cap
The avoidance cap refers to the point where your combined dodge, parry and chance to be missed is so high that you will never be hit by an avoidable attack. This is reached at 101.8% combined avoidance.
While this cap is mostly theoretical at the moment, I think we may see people able to reach it when (stacking cooldowns together) before Cataclysm hits. It looks to be a lot of fun to get to this cap, but I doubt it will have much use, since you need to sacrifice so much to gain it that it will be little more then a novelty.

You had it correct at 102.4%, but then changed it to an incorrect 101.8%. Unfortunately Synapse is incorrect. Each level the mob gains an extra 0.8% chance to hit you, not 0.6%. (-.02% for each of Miss/Block/Dodge/Parry)

jere
04-08-2010, 04:57 PM
He wasn't counting block, as it isn't avoidance. 101.8% would be correct for avoidance only.

Arikak
04-08-2010, 09:01 PM
I'm kind of surprised that this thread hasn't been stickied. Of course, much if its content will be obsolete in 4 - 6 months.

Rizilliant
04-09-2010, 08:15 AM
TY Jere....All this time ive been under the impression a warr/pally blocks, at best, 2760 dmg. From what im reading here, am i to understand that theres no "cap" on how much incoming dmg we can block? The "cap" is ONLY fo the offensive, shield attacks?

Leucifer
04-09-2010, 10:20 AM
Heh. Nice to see Gravity here......
And thank you for that bit on expertise because it IS ACCURATE.
Expertise is a "hidden" defensive stat. I don't really touch on that aspect of it here, but you covered that base well.

Anyways..........

Nicely done and covers the topic fairly well in summary. I just wish you would have gotten away from using the term "cap". Or set about defining what is meant by certain terms immediately.

A lot of the confusion has always stemmed from a lack of understanding of the idea "cap". So, in order to clarify, here's what I have come to understand.

Cap - Point at which a certain ability is considered maximized or subject to a significant decrease in return on value, or significant decrease in value gained in comparison to resources spent to increase

Example: Hit Cap for melee attacks is at 8%. At this value, you have reduced the potential to miss a target effectively zero. This does not include a target's avoidance ability, but reflects the passive, built-in mechanic for a miss.

Hard Cap - Point at which a statistic is essentially maximized in it's effective value or the diminished returns on investment are so dramatic as to make an increase beyond this point meaningless

Example: For Hit Cap, an additional 8% to hit negates the game's built-in 8% chance to miss for a character with maximized weapon skill. Investment in hit beyond this point yields little value as a greater than 100% chance to hit does not translate to useful value in gameplay.... meaning a 102% chance to hit does not increase damage or provide other benefits.

Soft Cap - Point at which a statistic is optimized for a particular purpose of the statistic. Value on investment may be decreased beyond this point but return on investment still is effective for purposes.

Example: For defense, an optimized value of 540 reduces the chance for a level 83 mob to deliver a critical strike against a character to 0%. This is considered a key value for a tank because it essentially eliminates the potential for an un-healable large damage spike to their character. Defense beyond this point still yields significant avoidance improvements however and has value to the tank.

One thing to realize about all of these caps, is that all of these abilities or statistics have functions, or mathematical equations, that look a lot like this:

http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1403

In this example, the X axis, or bottom of the graph going across represents the points invested into a stat. The Y axis, or left side values, represent the "return" on the points invested..... or basically.... the value you get for each point invested.

Looking at this, you can see that for each point invested, you get a value of 2 in return. This pattern holds true until a certain point, in this case, an X value of 20. After investing 20 points, you no longer get 2 points for each point invested, but much, much less.

The value of 20 in this case would represent a "hard cap", since the value gained is significantly less for each point you invest into it.

Now, let's take a quick look at this:

http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1404

This example is good for a complex stat like defense in which the value of the points invested in it have more than one effect.

In this example, we have two outputs for each point invested. This graph is somewhat like how the defense stat works with the blue series representing the increase of the ability to not be critically hit by a mob and the pink series representing the increase in avoidance. As you can see, there is a certain point where the blue series stops its rapid progression, but the pink series continues to gain in value as steadily as it had previously. It's fairly similar as to how defense actually works in game in that, at a certain point, you stop getting value for points invested in defense for just one of the effects that is desired, but you still gain significant value on the other effects that are dependent on this stat!

I know, to many of you this is understood. For some, it may not be as readily apparent (hence, why we still keep getting questions pertaining to hit/expertise/defense/etc).

.................................................. .

Now, as to my own personal views on the original post, I do disagree with him/her as to the value of hit and expertise to a tank. They say:


A note on hit and expertise.
For both hit and expertise, the general thing to remember is this: "If you do enough threat, you don't need more of them. It is important, though, to realize that having more of either of them will make your threat less spiky. While this effect is minor, having a string of misses at the beginning of a fight can cause someone to grab aggro.
My advice would be to not worry about getting to either cap, but not completely ignoring the stat either. Gemming or enchanting for hit or expertise shouldn't be needed.

Here's my issue with this, from a practical perspective.

You say, "if you do enough threat, you don't need more of them." What generates threat? What are the mechanics of threat in-game? It all revolves around a tank's damage output. I'm sorry to say.... if you are NOT HITTING OR DAMAGING YOUR TARGET CONSISTENTLY, you are not generating threat.
I agree with the idea that you don't need to be capped with these..... but you need to be somewhere close to the cap. For example, if your hit rating places you at 4%..... I think you're asking for trouble. If your hit rating is sitting at 240.... with like 7.2% additional hit chance.... you're close enough where that additional 0.8% is probably not the end of the world in most circumstances.
Same with expertise. If you're sitting at zero..... you're asking for a hurtin'. If you have 17.... it's still better than nothing.

My rule of thumb with tanking is that you need to try and use gear that gets you near those caps, with defense of 540 being first priority...... hit rating of 276 (I'm probably off by a few points) being next priority balanced with expertise of 26. I believe that you have more flexibility with those last two. I myself, run with my hit rating at 240 or so, but my expertise is AT 26. So, I might very well miss now and then, but I know that I've reduced a boss's avoidance to zip. But after you hit that defense rating of 540, you have a LOT of wiggle room elsewhere. Try different balances of stats and items..... look to see what gives you the effect you really want. So long as you can hold over that 540 defense mark, you have some room to play with (and even then, having MORE defense than 540 is not going to hurt and will likely only help)

But hit and expertise are going to impact your threat, and not insignificantly.

All said though...... my vote is that this one is worthy of a "sticky".

EDIT: Side note. In Example number two, the way defense actually works is more like this:
http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1405
With blue representing the DECREASE in the chance to be critically hit and pink representing increase in avoidance. And no, none of these charts are based on true calculated values and are given only as visual examples to show how stats change as points are invested in them.

jere
04-09-2010, 12:43 PM
TY Jere....All this time ive been under the impression a warr/pally blocks, at best, 2760 dmg. From what im reading here, am i to understand that theres no "cap" on how much incoming dmg we can block? The "cap" is ONLY fo the offensive, shield attacks?

Correct. Incoming damage blocking is straight forward BV (well with talents and such). Only SS and ShoR get diminished, and that is on BV contributions to their damage.