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View Full Version : Tanking Is it bad have too much Def?



Hätemachine
12-22-2009, 05:36 AM
Im at 553 and wanting more but are there any cons of doing so? And pros? Will I continue to get more dodge by adding to my Def rating?

Thanks

Stalswarrior
12-22-2009, 05:47 AM
There is nothing wrong with getting more def than what is required for uncritable. However its not something to gem for if thats what you are wanting to do (unless you are trying to assemble an unhittable set).

Pros: Gain avoidance/mitigation

Cons: loose effective health

I am sure there are more pros and cons, but I am at work and dont really have the time to sit and think about all of them.

My suggestion is dont worry too much about geming for it but if you get an upgrade with more def on it dont be concerned that it has the extra, wont hurt anything. If you are wanting to assemble an unhittable set though I would suggest getting as much block gear as you can find and gem everything defense other than one or two gems to make your meta active.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/46235-best-slot-warrior-tanking-gear-glance.html (Here is a gear list with good suggestions on gear and gemming for each type of set)

*edited for link*

Swam
12-22-2009, 06:12 AM
as a general rule after the d cap its not start to actively seek def over other stats. Right now I have anywhere from 587 to 601 def and have no gems and as few enchants with def as possible. yes that adds up to a small amount of avoidance but Its not worth sacrificing for straight avoidance gemming

Satorri
12-22-2009, 07:08 AM
I'm being nitpicky, but you don't actually lose effective health with more defense, you just *may* be using resources for defense instead of effective health.

If you are over the uncrittable point, and don't have any defense gems or enchants, there's nothing to worry about whatsoever, it's just a nice bonus.

Hätemachine
12-22-2009, 08:14 AM
Thanks for the info. The reason I was asking is because I guess you could say Im trying to get, as Stalswarrior put it, a "unhittable" set, or close to it as possible. Im a DK that spec'd unholy with boneshield and for me (remember I said me =D ) it has worked out well in terms of grabbing, holding aggro, taking less damage.

I've grabbed JC so I can get the red +34 Dodge gems, blue +51 stam , and the yellow +34 Def gems.

So I guess with that, would an unhittable set be possible, worth it? Is it true when ppl say that an unhittable toon may grab less aggro? I would think just the opposite, you know, that would really piss the mob/boss off. lol

I'll look the forums when time permits, but any ideas on the caps to have an unhittable toon, if possible.

Thanks

Airowird
12-22-2009, 08:35 AM
Afaik, due to the Diminishing Returns on Parry/Dodge/Miss, unhittable is not something a DK can achieve with current gear.

The only classes I know that have succesfully attained unhittability are Warriors & Paladins because Block Chance has no DR. Although this is ofcourse not a genuine unhittability as they can still get hit, but never for the full amount.

krc
12-22-2009, 08:54 AM
Yeah I am pretty sure DKs can not reach uncrittable because they don't have block to add to the equation. And for all bosses besides Saurfang and Gunship Captain with your Jewel Crafting gems it's worth just going 3 51 stamina gems. Trying to reach unhittable for a DK would mean only avoidance and if you aren't on the two fights I listed above it isn't going to be ideal compared to EH or N-EH.

I will use Gormok as an example, he will kill you with a melee, Impale, bleed combo, the only attack avoidable is the melee, by stacking avoidance you are relying on RNG too much in that situation. Say you trade off quite a bit of EH for avoidance in that situation, when the melee hits which will happen eventually you will get insta-gimped by the Impale Bleed Combo. But defense is always helpful I just wouldn't trade EH for defense for the majority of encounters.

greendragonempire
12-22-2009, 10:10 AM
It is very bad to have too much def. A few points over isnt bad, but never gem for it and if you take too much heavy def gear you are sacrificing other stats that will give you more effective health.

Too much def. i.e. > 575 is an opportunity cost that is not worth paying.

jere
12-22-2009, 10:38 AM
It is very bad to have too much def. A few points over isnt bad, but never gem for it and if you take too much heavy def gear you are sacrificing other stats that will give you more effective health.

Too much def. i.e. > 575 is an opportunity cost that is not worth paying.

No. It isn't automatically bad to have "too much" defense. Sometimes you get what the gear gives you. There is no need to gem/enchant for it unless you don't have at least 540.

You aren't always paying any opportunity cost to get that extra defense. Sometimes it simply comes on the upgrades that drop for you (or are available via crafting/badges).

Chamenas
12-22-2009, 11:14 AM
Defense is sort of like Hit. There's this generally accepted cap, after which it becomes significantly less valuable than it was before (going from absolutely necessary to almost hardly useful). There is another, harder cap, after which it pretty much becomes worthless, but the chances of you even coming close to that cap without putting all of your effort into maximizing your defense value is slim to none.

Thus extra defense does not hurt, it still has value after the cap and you shouldn't feel like you have to shed it. That said, as many of the bigger names have mentioned thus far. Take a look at your enchants and gems, do you have any defense ones that you used before you had such a nice padding of defense? They can be replaced now. You may come back to using them again later, but for now, if you truly want to eek out as much value as possible, then yes, it would be more beneficial to replace those defense points with other stats. But having extra defense isn't bad. It isn't going to hurt you, it's not a complete waste of a stat.

Satorri
12-22-2009, 11:20 AM
Well, defense is not exactly like hit. Hit has a hard cap, defense does not. =)

For those who don't know that terminology, a "hard" cap is when the points will have absolutely no effect when more are added. It is possible to be incapable of missing at which point Hit rating will add zero value.

Defense rating will *always* add value, but after you pass the "cap" where you cease to be crittable, it only adds avoidance.

What's more, to consider for DKs, even after we cease to get crit reduction from it, we still buff our IBF effectiveness with it. I don't take that as a reason to focus on pumping up your defense, but it sure doesn't hurt.

(and sadly, no, DKs cannot reach the unhittable point passively, probably not even with procs/CDs)

Chamenas
12-22-2009, 11:23 AM
Well, I take that back then. I simply remember talking to you about a point at which miss chance becomes severely diminished. But, then again, defense will still give dodge and parry and would still give miss. The value would just be lessened even more. I suppose hard cap was a terrible choice to use for that.

However the likening of hit (mostly for DPS) and defense (for tanks) as far as the soft cap goes, is still apt!

Synapse
12-22-2009, 11:30 AM
As said, there's nothing inherently bad or any waste on getting more defense.

There's an ideal ratio between the avoidance stats that you can use as a guideline when you can choose what stat to add to your gear, I think it's 2,1 dodge per 1.8 defense per 1 parry?

Attaining the ideal ratio is practically impossible, so don't go out of your way, but when you can pick wich stat to add, you can look at that ratio and say "hum, I'll get the most from defense instead of dodge here"

Hätemachine
12-22-2009, 02:49 PM
Ok, more Def after the crit cap isnt bad because it adds to our avoidance, I'll never prob be unhittable because of diminishing returns. So if I leave my Def rating at/around 551 (sorry, not 553 like previous thought) and with my parry rating around 18% and dodge around 25/26% unbuffed, how much higher (gems/enchants) before they're capped and of no use to obtain more of?

Thanks for all the valuable info, its been useful to me and I hope to pick the brains of you great players again in the future! Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays!

-HM

krc
12-22-2009, 04:10 PM
There is a "hard cap" for avoidance but you will never hit it making it irrelevant, it is always useful but its usefulness decays over time through diminishing returns. Honestly though I wouldn't worry about your avoidance too much and focus mainly on N-EH, enough avoidance will come with gear.

Moonschwine
12-22-2009, 07:28 PM
It is very bad to have too much def. A few points over isnt bad, but never gem for it and if you take too much heavy def gear you are sacrificing other stats that will give you more effective health.

Too much def. i.e. > 575 is an opportunity cost that is not worth paying

I disagree here, infact its very difficult to keep your defense score actively 'low' and floating around the 540 cap.

There's no real reason not to have as much defense over 540 passively THROUGH GEAR ALONE and not by gemming or enchanting for it; generally higher level gear has higher defense from itemization. You can't avoid it tbh and alot of BIS items have high defense.

A better piece of advice would be:

If you are <540 gem for defense.
If you are == 540 or >540 gem other stats such as stam and avoidance.

Job done.

Satrina
12-22-2009, 08:02 PM
To be nitpicky, as Satorri says, there are indeed hardcaps on avoidances.

With that said,

how much higher (gems/enchants) before they're capped and of no use to obtain more of?

You'll never hit the caps. Read: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html

As others have said, there are better things to gem/enchant for than defense after 540. It's not "bad" per se, but there are better uses of those itemisation points for the most part.

Edgewalker
12-23-2009, 01:07 AM
as a general rule after the d cap its not start to actively seek def over other stats. Right now I have anywhere from 587 to 601 def and have no gems and as few enchants with def as possible. yes that adds up to a small amount of avoidance but Its not worth sacrificing for straight avoidance gemming

Are you using fast tank weapons with the defense enchant? Else those numbers would be improbable.

Martie
12-23-2009, 01:52 AM
Are you using fast tank weapons with the defense enchant? Else those numbers would be improbable.
Have you seen the amounts of defense rating tank gear has nowadays?

Swam
12-23-2009, 05:23 AM
Are you using fast tank weapons with the defense enchant? Else those numbers would be improbable.
I use a slow dps weapon main hand, yes I have the def stam enchant for dk's. However it is still one of the better enchants for dual wielding dk's

Swam
12-23-2009, 05:24 AM
Have you seen the amounts of defense rating tank gear has nowadays?
Qft. Even my non dk tank friends report very high def.

Chamenas
12-23-2009, 05:30 AM
Are you using fast tank weapons with the defense enchant? Else those numbers would be improbable.

And why is that? If I plop the Ony trinket in, I have around 579. If I wanted to stick the Thadd trinket in, the number would be easy to get. Not that I would, but it's hardly a stretch.

Swam
12-23-2009, 05:42 AM
If I used 2 def trinkets, def relic, and solid def gear I could probably hit 660 or so def. Just cause I can doesn't mean I will. Def is a great tank stat no matter what. It contributes to avoidance so It is never, I repeat Never bad. Sometimes it is better to invest in other stats, but defense is never bad. period.
Defense cap is a lie, it is merely the uncritible cap that is primary. Every point of def beyond that contributes to avoidance. Gemming beyond 540 def is silly as other gems for straight avoidance are better, however def is still sexy. stop dissing it :D

Bilistein
12-23-2009, 06:09 AM
Thought i would add my 2 cents to this thread. I know I am a warrior not a DK but i currently run at 570 defense. This thread has also made me realise I still have 4 10def & 15 sta gems. I could change these gems however they all give me +sta from the socket bonus so my question now is is it worth me losing the 6 or 9 sta socket bonus by replacing these gems with either pure sta or sta and exp? I am over the soft cap for exp and my guild is full of dranei so pretty much always get the 1% hit bonus to put me at the hit cap.

armoury: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormrage&n=Bilistein)

Lore
12-23-2009, 06:19 AM
Gemming beyond 540 def is silly as other gems for straight avoidance are better, however def is still sexy. stop dissing it :D

Incorrect. As of patch 3.2, Defense gives the most raw avoidance (combined miss, dodge, and parry) per stat point of any avoidance stat.

Alastrionia
12-23-2009, 06:33 AM
Incorrect. As of patch 3.2, Defense gives the most raw avoidance (combined miss, dodge, and parry) per stat point of any avoidance stat.

This.

With ICC and the -20% dodge, would you enjoy a greater chance that the bosses attack will miss you entirely?? That your dodge and parry are ramped up and keep ya going. I know I would. I'm running 555 defense as a prot warrior and I can tell ya it has helped me.

Even after the 540 mark, never ignore an item that has defense rating on it.
And don't look away from those +10 def / +15 stam gems....green is sexy and bonuses (when beneficial) are always worth grabbing.

Chamenas
12-23-2009, 06:48 AM
Thought i would add my 2 cents to this thread. I know I am a warrior not a DK but i currently run at 570 defense. This thread has also made me realise I still have 4 10def & 15 sta gems. I could change these gems however they all give me +sta from the socket bonus so my question now is is it worth me losing the 6 or 9 sta socket bonus by replacing these gems with either pure sta or sta and exp? I am over the soft cap for exp and my guild is full of dranei so pretty much always get the 1% hit bonus to put me at the hit cap.

armoury: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormrage&n=Bilistein)

It's some simple math. Look at your gems in any given piece, add up how much stamina they have. If your socket bonus has stamina, now factor that into the total. If the sum of those numbers if greater than 30 x # of sockets, then you would lose stamina by gemming purely for it.

I'll give you a big hint though, I've never seen a piece where gemming for pure stamina netted less stamina that going for socket bonus. If you have extra defense and you feel like you could use more stamina (if you're doing top tier content, then the answer is probably yes) then I would switch over. If you like socket bonuses, look at other stats you might need and switch your gems to stat/+stam instead. Look at things like hit (are you special hit capped at 8%) expertise (soft cap at 26) etc...

Bilistein
12-23-2009, 06:51 AM
@ Lulia I know I will gain some sta if I go with pure sta but in some case i will be dropping 10 defnese for 6 sta which does not seem that much and yeah I am about 0.1% under 8% hit in raids and at 27 exp as stated in my original post :)

But from the other responses they seem fine as it is.

Thanks for the quick replies :)

Satrina
12-23-2009, 07:02 AM
I'd prefer to take the stamina given such a glut of defense. Then again, you could gem for spirit at this point and likely be successful, so whatever floats your boat if you're not getting smeared.

Of course, ICC hard modes are as yet undiscovered. That's when we'll really find out what the requirement is.

Chamenas
12-23-2009, 07:05 AM
Meh, the small amount of Stamina increase is why I like to use such gems to increase hit or expertise which show a bit more for the small amount on the gem. I need to look at regemming to give myself a bit more stamina now though, since I don't need AS much hit or expertise (though I really like where they're at!)

Satorri
12-23-2009, 07:37 AM
I Then again, you could gem for spirit at this point and likely be successful, so whatever floats your boat if you're not getting smeared.

Hmmm, that could be really fun actually. Swap in some spirit gems and see how long it takes in random pugs for someone to say something.

Chamenas
12-23-2009, 07:57 AM
Hmmm, that could be really fun actually. Swap in some spirit gems and see how long it takes in random pugs for someone to say something.
mp5 gems as a DK *grin*

Edgewalker
12-23-2009, 10:26 AM
And why is that? If I plop the Ony trinket in, I have around 579. If I wanted to stick the Thadd trinket in, the number would be easy to get. Not that I would, but it's hardly a stretch.

He said without much defense gear. I have 586 defense myself, or maybe 582, without trinkets. I was just curious how he was so high without trinkets or enchants, i.e. tank weapons with the defense runeforge.

Chamenas
12-23-2009, 11:19 AM
I assumed that he meant he wasn't specifically itemizing for defense, that doesn't mean he can't have a trinket with some defense on it. But I don't really think how much defense he has is really relevant to the conversation.

Edgewalker
12-23-2009, 09:21 PM
I assumed that he meant he wasn't specifically itemizing for defense, that doesn't mean he can't have a trinket with some defense on it. But I don't really think how much defense he has is really relevant to the conversation.

There wasn't anything useful going on from the start of this thread, there are a lot of extremely well documented past posts that explain in great detail the value of defense to every conceivable level.
And it was relevant to my personal curiosity, and didn't really need the extraneous posts where people say "lols thar Lot of DEFENSE on gear now". There is no reason to be hyper attentive to every minute detail of a thread.

squats
12-23-2009, 09:35 PM
There wasn't anything useful going on from the start of this thread, there are a lot of extremely well documented past posts that explain in great detail the value of defense to every conceivable level.
And it was relevant to my personal curiosity, and didn't really need the extraneous posts where people say "lols thar Lot of DEFENSE on gear now". There is no reason to be hyper attentive to every minute detail of a thread.

wow..

it was a simple question the guy asked. and no, its not bad to have so much defense, it comes with gear.

there was once a guy that said "There is no reason to be hyper attentive to every minute detail of a thread."


irony