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Khand
12-21-2009, 01:31 PM
Hello guys. This is my first post so, be gentle with me. (By the by, I'm a level 80 orc warrior. There's my armory link. The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moon+Guard&n=Khand))

I'm very confused as to what I should be doing. Most of this new ICC gear I've taken a look at is split between parry / dodge / defense rating. The frost emblem gear has insane armor / defense rating / parry. With this new debuff to dodge, it makes me wonder if I should get the parry gear over the other balanced gear. But then, parry makes bosses hit faster and that's very, very bad.. I'm thinking of going for the balanced stuff.

(Very hard for me to do ICC 25's seeing as how my guild can't yet, not enough peoples. Limited to 10 man's for the most part.)

It's somewhat hard keeping my hit rating cap / expertise cap with all this new gear with no ratings of any sorts on 'em. I got a new belt from ToC 25 last night, that has parry / dodge / defense on it. I'm using the 226 conquest badge belt 'cuz of the hit rating. If I put the belt on, I go under hit cap. I also got new wrists with expertise instead of hit, so I'm at a loss. There seems to be -no- hit rating gear.

Is this because hit rating isn't as important as expertise? ._.

What do I gem as? I've been going pure stamina because every warrior seems to be telling me that's the right way to do it. I've been sneaky and used metas in items that give good stamina socket bonuses, so I can get some other stats in. I've had to use some green gems to get hit rating, as well as an enchant on my gloves just to get 8.9%.

I can probably ditch the 20 hit rating enchant now...

I realize this is a good number but if I remove these gems and enchants I drop to like 6 or 7. Since I'm a jewelcrafter, should I socket 34 hit rating? Or stick with stamina?

I have to use T8.5 gloves because of their hit also, and the same with those boots, even though I have replacements for both.

I've also wondered whether I should socket parry / dodge gems, the 34 ones, simply because the bosses in ICC dont' hit for 25k like the other one's do.

One more! Bear with me x_o;

Deep wounds. What's the big deal with that? I don't use it and I do fine, if not great. I usually end up with 7-8k TPS depending on whether I crit a lot. Does it help -that- much that everyone is using it? I personally don't see the reason it's that sought after. Every warrior I know has that build. I'm pretty sure it might be because they don't know what they're doing, but, still.

I think that's about everything I'm confused about. I have no good warriors on my server to talk to, and the ones I do talk to always say "Personal preference." I hope you guys give me --YOUR-- input because I'd like to see what other people think

This may be a lot to ask for my first post, but I've been trying to think this through for a long time.. Thanks to anyone who had the cajones to read this much.

krc
12-21-2009, 01:40 PM
Continue to gear and gem for N-EH, a page that explains the best ratio of armor and stamina for each amount of unmitigable damage is here http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=26831&rb_v=viewtopic scroll down to right above the conclusion for rough ratios. Only socket bonus unless the socket bonus is 9 stamina or higher. Almost every single boss favors EH, the only bosses that don't are Saurfang and Gunship. No need to be hit or expertise capped since threat is not a problem.

Change your shoulder enchant to the pvp one, cloak enchant to 225 armor and glove enchant to 240 armor. Deepwounds adds a great amount of damage which is always useful.

Reev
12-21-2009, 01:43 PM
You have way more hit, expertise, and defense than you need, but honestly, you aren't badly geared. I'd replace the Ony trinket with a stamina trinket for most fights, and regem out of the +hit. Your build is a little funny. You have no vigilance, no Imp Revenge, you take 5/5 Cruelty, which point for point would be better spent elsewhere, among other things. It looks like a survival build that's been altered to fit your personal preferences. That's fine if you can make it work, but if that 9k dps mage is pulling aggro off of you, you may want to consider changing up your spec, and grabbing Vigilance at a minimum. Also, Deep Wounds will cause you to do more damage, and therefore more threat. Even if you don't need the threat, though, the extra damage is nice for bringing down bosses faster.

Inaara
12-21-2009, 01:56 PM
The above posters speak truth. ICC is basically Sunwell 2.0, strive for EH. If the socket bonuses are good use +dodge/stam or +defense/stam gems. With the massive reduction in avoidance you'll want to pick it up where you can while not sacrificing EH.

Khand
12-21-2009, 08:07 PM
Well guys, I fixed up a new spec. I have one that's a bit.. Weird. A friend and I are gonna try it out for kicks. My other one is the deep wounds with vigilance.

I haven't had any problems with my other "funny" spec in keeping threat. I was usually between 7-8k TPS. Warlocks that crit scare me, because they hit 11k TPS. Is there any way, aside from impale / deep wounds, to increase my TPS? Single target, it doesn't have to be amazingly AoE-y.

Reev
12-21-2009, 09:53 PM
Use Vigilance on your highest TPS target, which is usually a warlock or a hunter, but may vary depending on who you're running with.

Aside from that, your rotation must be good if you're getting 7-8k tps consistently. Most tanks I know will spike that high or higher, but will usually settle down between 5.5k and 7.5k tps. The only stats that will increase your TPS beyond what you're doing are hit (which you're over capped on and won't do you any good), Expertise (which you're over the soft cap on, and won't do you much good), Shield Block Value (which isn't a very strong stat), and Strength. I wouldn't Gem or gear for any of those.

Also, not having Improved Thunderclap is a huge huge huge nono. It's on the order of trying to tank in spell power gear. Bad idea. Without Imp Thunderclap, you will take a lot more damage, to say nothing of your AoE threat.

Khand
12-22-2009, 03:04 PM
I kind of wanted to make two tanking specs. One would have been single target TPS, which is the one without imp thunder clap, and the other would be an experimental spec that's single target TPS. Whichever one was better, I would keep, and replace the other with a more AoE oriented spec.

You guys think that's a good idea? Oh, also. What's this huge deal with Blade ward? I honestly think the 200 parry rating is bad, but that's just me.

krc
12-22-2009, 03:13 PM
It's a good idea to experiment with spec tps just make sure with the tps you take into account that Improved Thunder Clap will also add to your survivability because of the amplified debuff. Blade Ward isn't really anything special, probably a good choice to stick with Mongoose or Blood Draining.

Khand
12-23-2009, 02:39 PM
Okay guys, I'm back for round two. Now, I've read a lot of topics and people's opinions on hit rating and expertise rating, and from what I gather, Expertise is better than hit rating in the long run. This is why my expertise is 35+ (I forget what it is). Since this seems to be the general trend, should I start leaning more towards expertise, and replacing my hit rating gear? Or is it still valuable to some extent?

I have bracers from ToC 25 with expertise, but my 10 man have hit rating that I need to stay hit capped. I'm curious if I should sacrifice one cap for another..

Thoughts?

krc
12-23-2009, 02:42 PM
Expertise is always better than hit because it will add survivability along with threat. Expertise adds survivability because it reduces the change of parry haste and against a pure melee boss 1 point of expertise is worth around .8 dodge rating.

nethervoid
12-23-2009, 03:29 PM
Generally I use my glove enchant to help with my hit/exp caps. If I don't need the help, I put stam on them. If my DPS ever start to catch up to me on bosses, I'll put the armsman enchant on them.

Don't worry a great deal about hit/exp caps when you're running progression content. Worry about survivability, which means mainly stam gems, armor enchants, and if you must dodge/stam or def/stam gems. Once you get a good amount of gear for that place, you can start throwing in some hit/stam or exp/stam gems if your DPS are creeping up your backside on the threat meter (my DPS have never had this issue).

Also, as has been mentioned, grab vigilance if your DPS begin to catch up.

Hit cap is 8%, so don't go above that, else you're pretty much wasting stats. If you aren't having threat issues, the only reason to have hit is for taunts, and taunt hit is a spell hit, which is 13% I believe for warriors (don't try and get this - if you really NEED a taunt [Gormok heroic mode] use taunt glyph).

Bosses in ICC aren't hitting as hard, but they hit more often. Stam will help you live through the hits. Avoidance is like playing roullette. It's not dependable.

Deep wounds helps with DPS, which leads to lots of threat.

"Every warrior I know has that build. I'm pretty sure it might be because they don't know what they're doing, but, still." Read that again 10 times. lol Usually when everyone you know who's uber geared is doing something a certain way, it's because someone proved it was the 'best' way.

(sorry if the post is part rehash - I admit I didn't read the whole threat before posting lol)

Khand
12-23-2009, 07:29 PM
Lol it's fine, no worries. Is it worth replacing my hit rating stuff with expertise? I'm confused.

If I rid myself of some hit rating gear, and drop below 8%, but my expertise is at like, 42, will the increase to expertise make up for what I lose in hit? Does expertise increase my chance to hit, just like hit rating, but just add extra?

If so, doesn't that mean I should drop hit rating entirely for super awesome expertise gear? (Still new-ish to the whole SUPERTANKOMG scene)

krc
12-23-2009, 07:33 PM
Basically don't worry about hit or expertise but if it comes down between the two go with expertise.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 07:35 PM
Okay Khand, the arguments have gotten fairly muddled, so let me try and clear it up for you.

There are 3 ways your attack can be avoided by the boss:
1 Miss
2 Parry
3 Dodge

Hit only effects the chance to Miss, whereas Expertise effects the chance to be parried (at 56 expertise) or dodged (at 26 expertise).

Therefore, 1% for 1%, until 6.5% (26 expertise) expertise is doubly as effective as hit is.

To be completely frank, if you're doing your rotation correctly, you don't need a lot of either. I'm currently rocking 60 hit and 26 expertise and have few to zero threat problems. I'll admit it can be kind of a struggle, but as long as I keep my rotation set I'm fine, usually my bigger problems are just doing more threat than other tanks =P. Use Vigilance wisely and have rogues/hunters use tricks/misdirects properly and you shouldn't really have threat problems.

Khand
12-23-2009, 08:22 PM
And... I'm back.

Major dilemma.

I have 39,966 hp as of now. It's annoying the shit out of me. I can't do Ulduar 25 for the heart of iron, 'cuz my guild doesn't run Ulduar. I've been trying to PUG for the longest time, but no luck on that front.

Are there any decent tanking cloaks that aren't 50 frost emblems? ._.
I still use the friggin' Ulduar 10 one, and it annoys me to no ends. Is there any stamina trinket that can replace my black heart? 'Cuz that's the only thing I have aside from those Brewfest trinkets that I don't consider tanking trinkets.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moon+Guard&n=Khand)
It didn't update yet 'cuz I haven't logged out. The enchant on the gloves has been replaced with 18 stamina from one of those borean kits.

Reev
12-23-2009, 08:55 PM
Where's the dilemma?

40k unbuffed HP is pretty good really. I usually run at 40k unbuffed HP, and can tank anything currently in the game. Of course I also have 3-4.5k more armor than you, depending on Quel procs, but you should be fine.

The cloaks that are upgrades for you are the 50 frost emblem one and the Pride of the Demon Lord in ToC 25. Your Black Heart is a very good trinket. Keep using it until you can replace it with either the Frost emblem one, or the Unidentifiable Organ.

220 armor to gloves will net you more effective health than 18 stamina to gloves, by the way, at least in the majority of content.

Aggathon
12-23-2009, 08:59 PM
Cloak Options:
Platinum Mesh Cloak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40722) - emblems of valor
Pride of the Demon Lord - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47275) - Lord Jaraxxus 25 Normal

As far as trinkets go, the black heart is REALLY good, don't be put off by it. If you are looking for a heart of iron equivalent -> Glyph of indominability is really good, fairly equal to heart of iron, better depending on gear levels.

If you're wanting the extra stam to push you to 40k, I'd say re-gem your legs. There's a stipulation that most people don't mention about gemming for +12stam bonuses. If you hit a 3 socket bonus, it's equivalent to gemming 2 +6 stam bonuses because you're losing stam on each gem you enchant. Therefore for 3 socket bonuses, it should be gemmed with 3 +30stam gems 99% of the time, at least imo. Same with the chest, gemming for +8 dodge isn't generally considered optimal, and if you're going for avoidance why not 10defense/15 stam.

Also +30stam/15 resil to shoulder enchant.

Overall your armory looks fairly decent.

I'd also suggest taking the points out of cruelty and putting them into imp demo shout.

Strife419
12-23-2009, 11:33 PM
I have some of the same questions the original poster had, what gear should I be heading for, badge high armor or insta gear with avoidance. I personally would like to see more block gear since the 60% crit block change on warriors, but my prayers are never answered haha.

Here is a link to my character Zamantha (http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Eldre%27Thalas&name=Zamantha). I was gearing in TOC to get my avoidance around a 1/1 ratio. In other words my avoidance works like this at the moment: 1 dodge rating gives me .01% and Parry gives me .01%. Since it droped from .02% per rateing I stoped stacking avoidance and focused on more mitigation. Health is always a top concern of course but not a stamina whore lol. I match sockets :).

Anyways so if anyone can confirm my intentions to gear in ICC is a right move... I'm going for badge gear since I'm conformable with my avoidance level at the moment. Also plan to get the 10 heroic shield and gun for block rating. With that said is block still a viable option when tanking assuming your at least around the block dmg cap?

krc
12-24-2009, 06:29 AM
Don't worry about block or avoidance, they both are bad stats especially block for the majority of encounters. Basically use N-EH Maintankadin • View topic - "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=26831&rb_v=viewtopic) for all bosses but Gunship and Saurfang because they favor avoidance.

For your gems gem stamina in every slot unless the socket bonus is 9 stamina or higher. I would suggest your next Emblem of Frost piece be the gloves since they provide the second biggest upgrade behind the chest but are not upgradable and only cost 60 emblems.

Khand
12-28-2009, 11:29 PM
Hey hey I'm back. I may need to make a new post soon but I figure I should just stick to this one.

QUESTION:

I have near 41k hp now, and I was trying to find that PvP enchant but I just can't seem to. I was wondering if I still need it, or if I should keep the dodge / defense rating enchant from Hodir for the extra avoidance.

Also. Is it worth replacing the Black Heart with the Brewfest trinkets? They don't seem like genuine tanking trinkets in my eyes.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moon+Guard&n=Khand

Geisha is... JAPANESE GIRL.

Eisen
12-28-2009, 11:33 PM
Hey hey I'm back. I may need to make a new post soon but I figure I should just stick to this one.

QUESTION:

I have near 41k hp now, and I was trying to find that PvP enchant but I just can't seem to. I was wondering if I still need it, or if I should keep the dodge / defense rating enchant from Hodir for the extra avoidance.

Also. Is it worth replacing the Black Heart with the Brewfest trinkets? They don't seem like genuine tanking trinkets in my eyes.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moon+Guard&n=Khand)

Geisha is... JAPANESE GIRL.

The pvp enchant is at the old PVP vendors in SW/Orgrimmar, depending on your faction. You remember those right? I know I almost forgot where teh silly thing was, haven't gone near it since 2.something.

There's lots of argument going on about trinkets and I asked myself a while ago...but I believe the aswer was no. The extra health on Brewmaster's doesn't make up for the fantastic proc of Black Heart.

krc
12-29-2009, 08:52 AM
The Black Heart is clearly better, in pure EH its proc is worth about an extra 100 stamina.

Khand
12-29-2009, 06:28 PM
Okay. I just won the shield from 10 man ICC. I'm wondering, is it better than what I currently have? (ToC 10 shield).

I'd lose a bunch of block value and a socket, which is like 10 extra stamina. I'm pretty sure this is a no brainer but I wanna make sure. >:D

krc
12-29-2009, 06:37 PM
No doubt the 10 man ICC one, with around 25 more stamina and 900 more armor there is no contest between the two.

Khand
12-29-2009, 06:42 PM
Thanks for the quick reply Krc. <3<3

Khand
12-29-2009, 07:29 PM
I don't think I ever got a response concerning the shoulder enchant. Since I have like, 40,776 hp now, is it worth replacing the 20 dodge and 15 defense for the 30 stamina?

krc
12-29-2009, 07:33 PM
Still worth getting it in my opinion because of how many bosses favor EH, others will argue against that. Really for the shoulder enchant it comes down to personal preference since even though one has EH the other is much better bugited.