View Full Version : Tanking DK Tank - White DMG is it realy mathers

12-21-2009, 10:11 AM
Hi, i played a shamy for a 3 years, then i rolled DK Frost tank,
I read and read all the guidelines about mechanics DW vs 2H wielding etc.

My main concern is about DK stats guides made by theory-crafters is wrong,
for example ,minimum 9% hit,
if you wana DW , more then 12% hit, slow / slow weapons etc,
if you don't have those stats quit tanking etc.

I had a pretty much hard time fallowing those guidelines, until
I came in doubt of all this when i first time tanked Naxx:

Was still on 3~4 blue gear items, and i just replaced De-Raged Waraxe which serves me well since 74lvl, with Sword of Justice from HoS.
I didnt even gem the sword , when i saw "LF Tank "Patchwerk must die",
wth i tought i /w the man.

Went in naxx, and started tanking Patch.

Locked my eyes on Omen , other tank Pally which was a little bit beter geared then me, pulled out around 40% TPS then me, which is ok i tought.

All other DPS was around 30~50% TPS less then me, except Rogue who was doing around 6k dps, he over aggroed me and died.

Except Rogue who died all went well, Patch was down.
And then i realized one thing, i equipped Sword moment before run, and i DIDN'T even leveled 2H Sword skill.
I have been MISS, DODGE and PARRYED on every singe hit.
All my threat came from spell dmg and (Macroed) Rune Strike.

After that i did some Recount inspecting, my white dmg is around 14% of all dmg, so even if i dodge miss and parry for lets say 30~40% off all white dmg, that would still decrese my dps/tps by barly 5~6%.

So is it posible that white dmg to DK Tanks is exaggerated, is there really point to sacrifice other stat, to get Slow/Slow wep, to get insane hit etc?

12-21-2009, 10:50 AM
I Haven't heard of or seen a Hit capped DK tank for some time now, the expertise is sitting in a rather god place atm due to the Itemization we had in TOC... hit seems to come back up a bit in ICC...

But your hit/exp does not only affect your white hits, for DW, getting the 9% (3% of which is talented) means that all of your special attacks will hit, and that seems to be the thing that matters. but that said, missing say 5% of those, won't gimp you to much over time as a tank, what it does mean though, is that you can have some "Ohh what the crap" moments where in the start of fights DPS seems to go ahead or in mid fight they catch up... thats the lovely thing about RNG, it can come clustered in a bad way... or in a good way...

Hit is as said hard atm, I am currently struggling to maintain about 200 hit rating (Hint: Snapper Exptreme, 40 stamina, 40 hit, i use that for many situations rather than just a regular fish feast, it brings me to around 230 hit atm.)... but expertise should be a non issue, with talents I amcurrently at 37 so go figure...

But about the DW slow / slow weapon, the reason for slow weapons is obvious, all your special attacks is based on % of weapon damage... that means...

Slow Weapong Ex.
Stormspike Cleaver - 196.5 DPS, 2.60 swing, 357-665 Damage
Lionhead Slasher - 196.7 DPS, 1.50 swing, 206-384 Damage

Now as you can see, LS has same DPS as SC (or better actually), but LS will do only a bit above half the damage for your special attacks compared to SC, that be OB, BS, FS, SC, RS

And if DPS with signifigantly better gear pulls better TPS than you, well then there is little you can do about it now than just get better gear as you go along... after all... if your on naxx level content, then your not nessesarily meant to be able to keep up with a Rouge that is currently making way through ICC... and also when your not MT on a thing... you will lose RuneStrikes, and has to resort to more FS... which is ok, but since it is not as good as RS, you will of fall more behind. (it might be able to rival closely if your hit and exp capped, but GL with that :=) )...

12-21-2009, 11:16 AM
Rapid you are wrong sorry. The only white hit that makes a difference for a DK tank is the one you get from your Rune Strike hit, which cant miss or be dodged or parried. The rest of the time, our damage is all based around our core skills, Diseases, primary atk move (Obliterate/Death and Heart/Scourge strike) and a rune dump of either Frost Strike or Death Coil. All of which are mainly helped by expertice, not hit.

12-21-2009, 11:16 AM
Thank you for comment,

I would need to check recount , but last time a saw, spell dmg miss on 5~6% hit rating (wich is 4% below normal), was minimal

For the Slow/Slow thing i was guided by:

"Many weapon damage based instant attack abilities do not use a weapon's actual speed when calculating the effects of attack power. Instead, they gain bonus damage from attack power as if they had a specific speed, as shown in the table below..."

Weapon damage - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Weapon_damage)

Still, all things things are pretty new to me, so i might mistaken.

Primary reason im pulling this thread is that i have been sacrificing some of my stamina gems and enchants, for hit rating. But i am starting to doubt that its not even necessary to do so.

Rapid you are wrong sorry. The only white hit that makes a difference for a DK tank is the one you get from your Rune Strike hit, which cant miss or be dodged or parried. The rest of the time, our damage is all based around our core skills, Diseases, primary atk move (Obliterate/Death and Heart/Scourge strike) and a rune dump of either Frost Strike or Death Coil.

Hmm, that is exactly my point, i think you didn't understand my post.

12-21-2009, 01:04 PM
Its a fact Rapid that allot of forum dweller have trouble with actually reading the original post before posting. We see that illustrated once again here.

But to your original point I had a similar event in where I equipt the polearm that that drops from Ony before heading in to TOC10. Well I main and off tank threw out a full clear before I saw that my weapon skill with polearms was some 10 points below cap. Know idea where it was when I started. That day I regem all stamina and only other gems to make the meta work. I take gear with regaurds to survival and no longer consider threat stats like hit and expertise. I believe that there is so much threat "cooked in" to the tanking class that it is no longer needed. There maybe a few fights where hit for the sake of taunt is needed and that can be fixed with a pot and food. As a general rule if your gear level is close to your dps you will not have a problem. I know im opening myself to allot of flaming but I contend that most folks dont realize how much threat has been built into the tanking classes. The day of threat issues of BC and Vanilla wow are over, we are in easymode tanking threat now. Survival is king not threat.

12-21-2009, 03:09 PM
The problem is that the post itself is barely readable, and he is using a boss with unique threat mechanics to gauge TPS.

The logic simply isn't sound.

WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay (http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/detail/281513338#threatr)

White damage is a little bit higher than normal, normally third, but threat is spread across the board for DKs. There is no overarching, end-all threat ability... White damage is just as important as Rune Strike, Heart Strike, Frost Strike, Etc.

All this does is spread anecdotal and fals information.

12-21-2009, 03:38 PM
I don't "spread" anything, i asked a question.
In hope to get a clear answer,
different then "White DMG is important because im a best tank ever and i say so, everyone who claim different will be accused for heresy"

Anyway i didn't said its not important , i said its exaggerated, i certainly wont go tanking with fishing pol equipped.

12-21-2009, 05:09 PM
I'm not understanding what the point of all of this is.

1.) On progression fights, you gear such that your threat is fine and your survivability is as high as possible. If DPS is out-DPSing your threat, you either stop playing poorly or trade out as little survivability as possible to increase your threat (or get creative with Intervenes, threat drops, etc).

2.) On non-progression fights you can trade your max survivability for some fun stats that make tanking a little easier threat-wise.

So to the OP, ask yourself: "Is DPS pulling boss aggro off of me?" If yes (like that rogue, ha), then you do need to start worrying about threat stats. If no, then you're fine.

If your point was to come here and make a point disagreeing with some particular point of view that you see as common, then please make your arguments a little more clear.

Did you look at Recount just after that Patchwork fight where your 2H Sword skill was crappy? Because if that's the case, your white damage will be much higher with maxed out skill.

If the other tank - the pally - was "at 40percent threat then you," does that mean he was above or below you on threat? It's not at all clear from what you're saying.

There are some really interesting mechanics in some fights that amplify damage, or mechanics that buff raid DPS but not tank DPS. In some of these cases, even if the tank gets the same damage buff, the static baked-in-threat component of our abilities doesn't get buffed, and threat can start to be an issue if you've completely ignored Threat stats on your own gear or don't have some pieces saved for use in a high-threat set.

12-21-2009, 05:14 PM
Don't forget that DKs have many abilities reliant on spellhit, which is yet another reason hit is so important for Deathknights beyond just the special abilities cap. The fact that it increases your white damage for threat is a minor accessory to that.

12-21-2009, 06:27 PM
Don't forget that DKs have many abilities reliant on spellhit, which is yet another reason hit is so important for Deathknights beyond just the special abilities cap. The fact that it increases your white damage for threat is a minor accessory to that.

Thank you for the straight forward answer.

One more thing that is not quite clear to me, about DW slow/slow - fast/fast thing,
(most of posts on forums and blogs guides etc. saying that slow/slow better, one OP said that to)

So, i did test using dummy's in ogg, using two different sets of weapon 1.7/1.7 and 2.0/2.0, both lvl 323, same dps (around 170 i think)
I took sample of 2 min, using only Obliterate (100% wep dmg + xxx).
In both cases, dmg according to Recount (minimal /average/maximum) for Obliterate was exactly the same. (xxx/648/880).
I know difference in 1.7 and 2.0 isnt big, but it would still shown some different numbers in recount.

I don't know if this is right way to test, this is something i came up on my own,
The base damage spells use is weapon DPS, and it seems it don't have anything to do with speed of weapon.
if im wrong correct me, but it seems that it is a same thing having slow or fast wep in DW?

12-21-2009, 10:18 PM
As far as I know, the actual reason to use slow/slow is because the weapon damage is usually higher on slower weapons. If the weapon damage is higher, it necessitates that attacks like Obliterate, Blood Strike and Frost Strike will all be higher because they are based largely on weapon damage.

As you said, the amount will be small. But every bit counts. And the math has actually shown the effect to be huge, but I'm not a math person so don't ask me to explain that one.

12-22-2009, 06:01 AM
There's a lot of stuff getting thrown around here, and I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to get at Rapid, but "12% hit or quit tanking" is terrible advice for a tank.

First off, the thing that has to be said is, hit and expertise are great but not central unless you're trying to trick out threat. Generally speaking, unless the fight allows it, we may not be able to get 8% hit (9% is very very dated) depending on the gear available to us.

The reason you shoot for 8% hit and not higher is that until that point you are buffing the chance to hit with your special abilities. As DKs it is a very big deal on comfort and reliability of threat that our moves that cost runes do not fail to connect (rune recharges, maintaining diseases, all messy). Higher than that you are improving your white damage and the hit chance for a couple of your spells (HB for Frost is a nice one not to miss). White damage is good, but not the whole picture.

Slow/Slow is not just to maximize white damage (in fact it doesn't maximize white damage, that's a Shaman thing for making the best use of Windfury weapon buffs), instead it is to maximize the damage of every ability buffed by ToT (Threat of Thassarian). Rune Strike, Obliterate, Frost Strike, Blood Strike, and even Plague Strike will all do the most damage attainable by using Slow/Slow weapons (though if you get a fast weapon that is more than 1 tier higher you could probably get more overall damage out of that even on specials).

Finally, Patchy is a terrible fight to measure TPS especially against a Paladin. Paladins get very noticeable damage/threat buffs against undead, and Patchy himself buffs the tanks' threat constantly, so you won't get a clean read against the dps.

12-22-2009, 07:25 AM
Basically the thing is that i had no problems with caping with 226 gear, but as more i have 232/245 gear, i have big problem keeping cap for hit/experties,
also it seems very hard to find good slow/slow weapon.

So i started to use hit/exp gems enchants instead of stamina,
and even using lower level gear to keep hit/exp up, and using slow sword from Onyxia which have terrible stats.
So i was wondering is this really so important that i need to sacrifice my other stats for it.

I will prob go with Virulance for spellhit rating, keeping expertise as much as possible, not worrying that much for having fast/fast.
And if i found that i have threat problem ill reconsider my decision.

Tnx all for help.

12-22-2009, 10:19 AM
I use gems to cap. There's a lot out there about filling your slots with all stamina gems, and that's a nice luxury for those that can afford it. However, if you're lacking in a certain stat, gems and enchants are the place to make up for it.

12-22-2009, 12:14 PM
The Onyxia swords are actually pretty good tbh.
That and a DK can tank just fine with a DPS weapon (or 2).

Also, on weapon damage:
Most instant abilities that scale with wepaon damage work as followed:
Example: Blood Strike:

40% * (Weapon Damage Range + AP/14 * Normalized Weapon Speed)

Where Weapon Damage Range is the min/max range as read from the weapon tooltip and Normalized Weapon Speed is a pre-determined number from Blizzard to keep instant abilities balanced.

12-23-2009, 05:45 AM
You could use a little bracketing to make your formula read right, mathilarily speaking. =)

When a tooltip says "X% of Weapon Damage" you can find your "weapon damage" on your character sheet's melee tab, which will include AP and any buffs affecting damage directly.

The formula is:
[(Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Normalized Weapon Speed] = Instant Weapon Dmg

Or in English, divide your current AP by 14 and add that to your weapon dps. For weapon-based abilities you use the normalized weapon speed which is a static value for each sort of weapon (1.7 for daggers, 2.4 for other 1-handed weapons, and 3.3 for 2-handers).

12-23-2009, 06:32 AM
[(Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Normalized Weapon Speed] = Instant Weapon Dmg

This means that spell that have Weapon Damage for its base, will benefit in the same way from two weapons that have exactly same level and same DPS, but different speed?
Because formula use Normalized Weapon Speed which is constant, and not the actual weapon speed.

12-23-2009, 06:41 AM
A tactfully designed system. =) Once upon a time it was worthwhile for Warriors to tank with a dagger.

So, generally speaking, weapon dps is about all that matters, but you may see a little wiggle, most notably when dealing with 1-handers. 2-handers are pretty uniform these days.