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Felycitas
12-21-2009, 12:47 AM
IE: Koralon's Meteor Fists and Marrowgar's Saber Lash

How does this work?

Is it always a "specific" amount of damage split between X targets and then those targets mitigate that damage?

Is it X damage applied to the 1st tank, which mitigates some of it, and then that damage is shared out to the other tanks (who can then mitigate even more of it)?

Can the shared damage be a crit? Do the OT's need to be defense capped?

Basically...

I'm wondering if for fights like Koralon or Marrowgar it might be better to have a high health melee DPS (IE: a blood DK) whacking away at the boss versus someone in tank spec.

The drawback would be wiping if the tank died.

swelt
12-21-2009, 03:20 AM
Go into WOL Log Browser and query on spell = Saber Lash and you get something like this:

[20:28:43.643] Lord Marrowgar casts Saber Lash
[20:28:43.924] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Cybold 14795 (B: 3772)
[20:28:43.969] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Solaufein 16174
[20:28:43.973] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Sweltina 8914 (A: 4037, B: 2863)
[20:28:46.284] Lord Marrowgar casts Saber Lash
[20:28:46.284] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Sweltina Dodge
[20:28:46.284] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Solaufein Parry
[20:28:46.284] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Cybold Parry
[20:28:47.513] Lord Marrowgar casts Saber Lash
[20:28:47.684] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Cybold 14800 (B: 3772)
[20:28:47.684] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Solaufein 15246
[20:28:47.684] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Sweltina 15512
[20:28:50.339] Lord Marrowgar casts Saber Lash
[20:28:50.339] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Sweltina Dodge
[20:28:50.339] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Cybold Parry
[20:28:50.990] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Solaufein 14637
...

[20:29:57.495] Lord Marrowgar casts Saber Lash
[20:29:57.738] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Solaufein 13331 (A: 3472)
[20:29:57.745] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Sweltina 13198 (B: 2863)
[20:29:57.780] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash Nabshammy 26655 (O: 7196)
As you can see, each cast of saber lash can be individually avoided, and as the appropriately named Nabshammy found out when standing in the wrong place, damage is not applied equally. Using a non-tank class would significantly increase the overall damage taken and probably be a pretty bad plan.

Synapse
12-21-2009, 03:24 AM
It has a set amount of damage that is then split to all the valid targets.

swelt
12-21-2009, 03:27 AM
Yes, but armour and defensive mods are applied after that, so unless your blood DK had similar armour to a tank, would take more damage (and avoid less).

Satorri
12-21-2009, 06:49 AM
These split damage attacks are handled the same way everything else is, just with the element of the splitting. =)

The damage dished out by the boss is raw and not affected by any special reductions other than the melee de-haste from the tank affecting speed, and an AP reduction (Demo Shout/Roar, etc).

For the split damage attacks it has a total (Marrowgar25 appears to be about 130k) that is evenly split to each target that is hit, usually to a capped number (Saberlash on 25 will hit only 3 targets, the 2 closest to his main target, non-tank melee beware).

That damage is then handled like a normal hit, mitigated through stance, buffs, and armor, possible avoided, etc. So, to be clear, if you avoid or mitigate more than one of the other tanks, you aren't actually increasing their damage taken, or anything like that.

Felycitas
12-21-2009, 09:56 AM
Okay. Thank you guys!

What about the shared damage being able to crit?

Satorri
12-21-2009, 10:13 AM
That too should be handled as described above, first it is split across the people getting hit, *then* it should assess crit chance, avoidance, mitigation, etc.

So, if a hapless dps happens to get hit by saberlash they cannot make it crit the tank. I figure that's what you're getting at, as no one who can be crit should be taking these hits normally. =)

phaze
12-21-2009, 02:24 PM
Generally speaking, NPC abilities are incapable of critical hits. It's possible that some NPCs override this, but that behavior would be a special case.

Hammerfists
12-22-2009, 05:17 AM
Im not quite sure what you mean there phaze. The reason we tanks get defense in the first place is to not get crit and then for tanking stats. If you mean NPCs like Thrall i have no idea but NPCs such as Marrowgar can and will crit you so be a good dps and stand behind Marrowgar or feel your GMs wrath cause come on this is the "pinata" fight of ICC.

Airowird
12-22-2009, 05:36 AM
Generally speaking, NPC abilities are incapable of critical hits. It's possible that some NPCs override this, but that behavior would be a special case.
NPC spells cannot crit, melee hits, be it regular or special, have always had the ability to crit. I am certain of this because I once managed to get crit cleaved by Onyxia for over 60k damage as DPS.

The general way shared damage ability works is like this;
#1 Find amount of targets eligable for damage (call it T)
#2 Take the total raw damage ability does (call it RD)
#3 Calculate the raw damage per target (RD/T)
#4 'Swing' at each target for RD/T raw damage.
#5 Calculate damage reduction and, if possible, avoidance.
#6 Laugh at the DPS standing in the wrong spot.

Threee very good examples of this mechanic are the Sonic Screech from Auriaya, Brutallus' Fiery Sweep or whatever it was called and Molten Fists on Koralon.

Satorri
12-22-2009, 06:11 AM
Hey, #6 appears in my method too!

It has a clause though, "Yell at healers who are standing in the wrong spot, when they die, I die, and then I am sad."

Airowird
12-22-2009, 07:37 AM
Hey, #6 appears in my method too!

It has a clause though, "Yell at healers who are standing in the wrong spot, when they die, I die, and then I am sad."
Pfff, as a healer I should add
#7 Get yelled at byhealers for tanking a cleaving boss on top of them while they're spamming heals to keep you alive.

Satorri
12-22-2009, 07:41 AM
But seriously, if you know we're bringing him back to center, why are you standing where we were just before to heal us?

Maybe if I put down smoke grenades they can think of it as fire?

Airowird
12-22-2009, 11:12 AM
Fine you win. On that boss healers shouldn't get their faces Cleaved off, but some fights (e.g. Onyxia with a weird p3 landing, Gormok occasionally,...) tanks really need to know where they're pulling the boss to.

Felycitas
12-22-2009, 12:12 PM
So theoretically (ignoring that going this route means you have other, more important, issues)...

You can swap out all the OT's on Marrowgar (and Koralon) for DPS (since 540 defense is not a requirement because Saber Lash and Meteor Fists will not crit).

Why would you do this? Who knows.

..but I feel more confident about tanking this guy, and leading a group against him, if I'm more intimate with the mechanics :)

Airowird
12-22-2009, 01:11 PM
The problem with swapping out your OT for a DPS on e.g. Koralon is the fact that he hits with Molten Fists for 40k .... on top of his melee. 2 tanks means twice the EH, thus less minimum gear requirement and more ease for your healers.

Ghladum
12-22-2009, 01:28 PM
I'm a huuuuuge fan of "Spin the Dragon" games. On Onyxia especially, it's so tempting to run up directly to the middle of Ony's hitbox and then do some quick walks directly around the center point, making her spin around a few times. Sure, some of your melee get cleaved, and I even once wiped a raid because I'd been ignoring the DBM timer for her fire breath, but generally it's a crowd-pleaser, and if you aim her just right for juuuust long enough, you can effectively kill that melee DPSer (your old college roommate) and derive immense satisfaction from such a precision kill.

Felycitas
12-22-2009, 07:49 PM
lol Ghladum

..and I agree WarTotem. I was just curious for a last ditch attempt where your healers are rocking but the DPS just isn't there.

As an OT on these fights you're basically just there to soak up damage.. a shame you can't do more DPS in the process.

Satorri
12-23-2009, 05:54 AM
You *could* use melee dps (smartest choices would be DPS warriors, paladins, and DKs for the higher health and armor values) to soak in an emergency.

This was actually once a strategy for Koralon that disappeared it seems, as at least at one time (haven't run it or tested in ages) his Meteor Fists would split over more than 2-3 targets, but if you had 2 tanks that was all you needed (especially with Bacon of Light).

Marrowgar hits really hard and *is* target capped (2 on 10, 3 on 25), so DPS will probably get smooshed. If a tank goes down though and you have a savvy DPS DK, they can jump up to the tanks and pop IBF/Unbreakable Armor/Bone Shield and save the other tanks some heat for a short time, or buy time for a Brez on the downed tank.