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View Full Version : Tanking Prot Warrior - Improved Spell Reflection



Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 05:45 PM
Alright so I have the build of 15/3/53 and my build is right Here (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=2500300023000000000000000000000300000000000000 000000000000053351225200012521030113321)

The reason why I decided to put points in there is I thought if useful in raiding and in pvp / pve. I've seen in raids that some spells do indeed miss me, and I've been able to allow party / raid members to take no damage from some spells when do spell reflection.

Also I have points in gag order for fights such as The Iron Council, and to pull adds close to me for aggro without having to move by using heroic throw.

I just want your guys' input on this to make sure this is a decent build.

Wars
12-20-2009, 05:48 PM
The fact that you will get here is that: Imp. Spell reflection is too situational to be involved in an over encompassing tanking build.

If that's what you're playstyle is, and you like it, have fun with it. It's your 15 bucks a month after all isn't it?

Aggathon
12-20-2009, 05:48 PM
You should always have points in gag order for the increased shield slam damage. Imp spell reflect is too situational imo. A lot of times the spells either won't kill you, or the points are better spent elsewhere. Most fights if damage is to hit ranged, it's AoE and imp spell reflect cannot help them, though I can see it useful in heroics (and PvP).

There may be some fights where the extra 4% chance to not be hit ends up being good, such as Sindragosa, but those fights also might require more cooldowns, and therefore imp disciplines may be better.

So in recap, imp spell reflect is good situationally, but is a waste of talent points in most situations.

Aggathon
12-20-2009, 05:48 PM
Argh!!! you beat me this time Wars!!!

Edit: To answer the question you're wondering but haven't asked, yes we do sit around pressing F5 and staring at the shoutbox for whenever someone posts something.

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 05:56 PM
Lol, well alright. Also with glyphs, I use Sunder +Devastate+block. I see the Sunder + Devastate being good for quick aggro + a little extra aoe aggro. The block is lovely as well. I may change to Improved Disciplines though because that does sound legitimate.

Wars
12-20-2009, 05:57 PM
I've run imp disciplines since 3.2 when we got new glyphs(last stand and shield wall), and I don't think I could play my warrior without them!

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 06:01 PM
I've run imp disciplines since 3.2 when we got new glyphs(last stand and shield wall), and I don't think I could play my warrior without them!

The only problem I see there, is last stand is more of a "oh shit" button, and you really shouldn't use it that often. And with Shield Wall, I don't like the fact it wastes the 20% damage reduction. Yeah you can use it more, but you probably shouldn't have to.

Aggathon
12-20-2009, 06:09 PM
some fights you have to, and even though you "shouldn't have to use last stand" that much, sometimes you do, and it is a very good oh shit button, so there's no reason to not have it on a shorter cooldown.

Glyph of sunder is also very bad, unless they ninja changed it on me, the extra sunder it applies gives you only the innate sunder threat, which is like 240 something threat if I recall correctly, cleave is a MUCH better AoE glyph. I personally carry around stacks of glyphs and switch them out as needed. Sunder is not one of them.

Wars
12-20-2009, 06:11 PM
Oh shit buttons make or break a tank. You should never ever use that argument again. Ever, you're not looking at your perspective of a tank effectively enough as a role-player in a raid environment.

You will never win that argument, and you're lying to yourself if you think that it is true.

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 06:19 PM
Oh shit buttons make or break a tank. You should never ever use that argument again. Ever, you're not looking at your perspective of a tank effectively enough as a role-player in a raid environment.

You will never win that argument, and you're lying to yourself if you think that it is true.

So having a glyph that makes last stand a 2 min CD where you'd only need to use it if you dip fairly low, or a healer dies which hopefully shouldn't happen, over a glyph that can help you hold aggro to protect raid members.

Sounds like an effective argument to me. Also, is it really worth risking a 60% damage reduction, and having it 40%? I can see that it will make it so you'll take less damage, but it may take your healers by surprise when it goes away.

Wars
12-20-2009, 06:21 PM
Like I said, you're not going to win this argument. Believe me when I say that they're worth it, thanks for coming to tankspot.com and hope you have fun with your 15 bucks a month.

Aggathon
12-20-2009, 06:25 PM
So having a glyph that makes last stand a 2 min CD where you'd only need to use it if you dip fairly low, or a healer dies which hopefully shouldn't happen, over a glyph that can help you hold aggro to protect raid members.


But glyph of sunder is terrible, it doesn't at all, you can easily put in last stand there. Secondly, YES ABSOLUTELY it is better. As a tank, the number one cause of death is running out of hit points, having more cooldowns faster increases your survivability, and there are several fights where I've used Last Stand almost on cooldown, and trust me it's not because I'm in terrible guild with bad healers or something, quite the opposite in fact.



Sounds like an effective argument to me. Also, is it really worth risking a 60% damage reduction, and having it 40%? I can see that it will make it so you'll take less damage, but it may take your healers by surprise when it goes away.

TBH when you need a cooldown 40% vs. 60% while yes a difference, will probably not mean the difference between you living or dying, 40% is generally enough, I've never died to something I wouldn't have died to anyways with the 40% shield wall. There are some fight mechanics that require you have a 2 minute cooldown, or at the very least it is very preferred (Algalon, NRB, Mimiron, General, just to name a few). However, there are some fights where you just won't use it that much, or won't even have a chance, like Steelbreaker or Thorim.

If you die and haven't done everything you possibly could as a tank to survive, then it is just as much your fault as your healers, imo.

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 06:26 PM
Like I said, you're not going to win this argument. Believe me when I say that they're worth it, thanks for coming to tankspot.com and hope you have fun with your 15 bucks a month.

Wow, I was just stating a question buddy, not trying to argue with you XD All I'm asking is is it really worth replacing? I can see the constant damage reduction from the shield wall being really helpful, but what about last stand? If you're taking 40% less damage every 2 mins, you don't really need it do you? I'd like someone else to have their input on this as well.

Aggathon
12-20-2009, 06:27 PM
Wow, I was just stating a question buddy, not trying to argue with you XD All I'm asking is is it really worth replacing? I can see the constant damage reduction from the shield wall being really helpful, but what about last stand? If you're taking 40% less damage every 2 mins, you don't really need it do you? I'd like someone else to have their input on this as well.

You did have a pretty sarcastic and condesending tone.

Wars
12-20-2009, 06:28 PM
TBH when you need a cooldown 40% vs. 60% while yes a difference, will probably not mean the difference between you living or dying, 40% is generally enough, I've never died to something I wouldn't have died to anyways with the 40% shield wall. There are some fight mechanics that require you have a 2 minute cooldown, or at the very least it is very preferred (Algalon, NRB, Mimiron, General, just to name a few). However, there are some fights where you just won't use it that much, or won't even have a chance, like Steelbreaker or Thorim.

If you die and haven't done everything you possibly could as a tank to survive, then it is just as much your fault as your healers, imo.

There ya go.

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 06:30 PM
Alright, I got you guys on the part where it is indeed the tanks place to survive, yes. But wouldn't a glyph of cleave, or vigilance be better then last stand for aoe threat? I mean if you don't die that's great, but it's also your job to keep threat up on various targets too.

Also with Last Stand, if you lose 30% of your health every 20 seconds and are dying anyways, that's really bad IMO. Takes your healers by surprise, for they probably think you're health is fine.

Eoika
12-20-2009, 06:30 PM
In a raid environment you will find very little use of Improved Spell Reflect on bosses. In most cases the spells bosses do will completely ignore Spell Reflect (KT comes to mind). You will find it rare to use as most spells should be interrupted if they're that big a deal to reflect.

In a raid-trash and 5-man heroic environment it will have its uses and saving graces, (being able to save the melee from a shadow volley just make healers smile, if they showed emotion). But otherwise, what all other posters said in this post.

More on topic where this conversation is going, in a progressing raid environment, cooldown usage will make and break a tank. Its all about trying to make the healer's job easier as holding threat should be by a certain playtime innate to all tanks. I also glyph/spec for shorter cooldowns on my oh shit button, while yes in a perfect raid you should NEVER have to use a cooldown, but thats putting alot of work on your healers and your DPS. Being able to use a cooldown when you need it without having to worry about, "I won't have it for the rest of the fight" is a big thing. Remember, you'd blow Bloodlust twice if you could in a fight, so why not last stand/shield wall?

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 06:37 PM
Alright, I am seeing how this could be useful, especially since aggro shouldn't be a problem when tanking a boss. Thanks guys for your input, I highly appreciate and would like to ask where I could possibly find some sort of calculation of the last stand and shield wall?

Papapaint
12-20-2009, 06:38 PM
You're incredibly worried about aggro issues in an expansion/patch where aggro is essentially a non-issue in raids. In current content, if a dps pulls aggro, you're either not executing your rotation properly or they're not playing properly.

Unless, of course, they're an arms warrior. But then it's their fault for playing arms :p

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 06:54 PM
I understand that, another thing though. What about glyph of devastate? I enjoy this one because it takes less rage to get the stacks up, and helps out a lot IMO. Glyph of blocking, devastate, and shield wall. Is that ideal?

Wars
12-20-2009, 06:56 PM
Glyph of Devastate is a solid threat glyph and would serve well in a balanced set of glyphs.

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 07:06 PM
Gotcha, so a glyph of Shield Wall, Devastate, and block along with putting the two points in Improved Disciplines. Sounds good!

Aggathon
12-20-2009, 07:21 PM
If you're only going to have one of either shield wall or last stand, then I'd say last stand.

Go read this -> http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/60155-aggs-prot-war-tanking-guide.html

Glyphs are better situationally for different things, I outline the glyphs and various uses, it's up to you to decide which ones are better for what fight.

For example: for my main "max survivability" setup, I use blocking, shield wall, and last stand. If I need threat I switch one of them out for devastate. Which one depends on what I am doing. We actually have 2 fury warriors that are very good with sunders, so I actually almost never need to use devastate in a raid because I put 1 up then before devastate comes up in my rotation again there's 4 more up anyways. This may differ for your raiding situation

However, my glyph setup for anub'arak adds is very different, I go with taunt, cleaving, and blocking. If you want max threat then blocking, devastate, and vigilance is probably the way to go. If you are on a boss where you need a taunt to land, glyph it.

There's not a set 3 glyphs that you are going to put in your glyph spaces and just keep there forever and ever and ever imo, at least not if you want to optimize your tanking ability.

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 07:28 PM
Why Last stand though? Isn't the ability to have less damage taken every 2 mins better than having your health increased? And if not, why?

Aggathon
12-20-2009, 07:32 PM
because the last stand glyph has no downside, whereas shield wall is -20%, tbh it probably doesn't matter eitherway, and it kind of depends on how you use your cooldowns. Last stand can also act as kind of a heal, and gives your healers a much better buffer. Last stand is always the first oh shit button I hit. I actually don't have shield wall key bound, because typically I save it for specific times and am proactive about its use and am more conservative with it than I am laststand. The second I go "OH CRAP" I just instinctively reach for my last stand button. I suppose it could depend on playstyle and be kind of 6 of one half a dozen of the other.

Wars
12-20-2009, 07:38 PM
The way I use it is to proactively plan out where you use your cooldowns.

Every time you have to move or healers are going to have to move, or get feared, or there is a transition in positioning.

That is probably the most common time for tanks to die, during movement transitions while they're moving a boss(marrowgar p2>p1).

If you know where you are going to hit your cooldowns, and you can hit them every 1 minute, 0:00(last stand + enraged regen), 1:00(shield wall), 2:00(trinket then last stand), 3:00(shield wall)

If there's a soft-enrage: You hit deathbringer saurfang's 30% mark and he's got 85 or so BP(he's going to hit moderately hard).

If there is predictable incoming damage:
Heroic Northrend beasts, I take impales 5, 6, then 11, 12. With 1 second left on the timer I use Trinket(anything I'm using atm) Last Stand and Enraged regen. This takes care of both of the Impales.

For 11, 12, I pop shield wall just before #11 and then it makes #12 trivial.

This helps because when Dreadscale pops up, Last Stand is back up, and healers getting into positioning on that, +me taking Molten Spew, + melee damage is an easy way to die.

There are many many reasons to keep both of them and use them often. You're just that much easier to keep alive. It's YOUR job to stay alive, not the healers job to keep you alive.

Frostglaive
12-20-2009, 07:44 PM
Alright, that does sound like a good idea. I hate switching glyphs out though, cause it's harder for me to adjust so I think I'll do Last Stand, block, and devastate. Thanks guys :)

Eoika
12-20-2009, 08:09 PM
If your a main tank and often have the DPS/Heals to fill in, you can just as easily have your offspec become another tank spec with another set of glyphs more suited for a different kind of fight.

I'm still waiting for when an inscriptionist can drop a book to change glyphs on the spot.

Bodasafa
12-20-2009, 10:35 PM
I'm still waiting for when an inscriptionist can drop a book to change glyphs on the spot.

You can change your glyphs at will anywhere as long as your not in combat or staging for an arena. The Book or Lexicon of Power is not required and Im not even sure its in the game anymore.

Reev
12-21-2009, 07:46 AM
Early in this thread, I kept hearing talk about "oh shit" buttons. I'd say that a well played tank doesn't have "oh shit" buttons anymore, but rather proactive cooldowns to be used when the expected damage is high, the expected healing is low, or just to help the healers out when there's no expectation. If you wait to use your cooldowns reactively as an "oh shit" button, you aren't using them to your raid's best advantage.

Airowird
12-22-2009, 06:24 AM
To come back to the Original Topic;

Imp. Spell Reflect has 2 portions; the 4% miss and the party/raid reflection.
Unfortunately, neither one has any significant impact.
The 4%miss is a nice overall damage reduction, but can't be relied on for big hits (think Sartharion breaths), where healers will anticipate on you taking damage anyway.
The reflection is a nice thing, if it wasn't for the fact that most meaningful boss spells can't be reflected or Grounded by Shamans. In fact, the ONLY significant spell so far I've found that can (and should) be reflected is the one from Mimiron's head in Ulduar. But as you will either be tanking something else while a ranged (usually Warlock) tanks the head, or you will tank it yourself with spell reflect & taunt, the improved is not useful there either.

It's a pretty useful talent for PvP, as you have more debuffs such as CC flying around that can miss/be reflected, but in PvE it lacks the power to trump other talents.


Back on the Imp Disciplines & Glyphs discussion;
Bears have a 20% reduction, DKs 30% and Paladins 50%, they all do fine with their CDs, why should you as a Warrior need the 60%
Furthermore, both glyph and talent are an overal increase;
Comparing to an ability on a 1min CD, how much dmg reduction would that ability need to do to average out the same? (Assuming same duration)

Base SW: 60% / 5 min = 12% / min
Glyphed SW: 40% / 3 min = 13.33% / min
Talented SW: 60% / 4 min = 15% / min
Glyph+Talent: 40% / 2 min = 20% / min

In other words, taking Imp Disciplines is a 25% increase after which the Glyph is worth a 33.33% increase in overall efficiency. The glyph alone is an 11.11% effiecency increase. This is ofcourse assuming it's used on the cooldown, the availability of cooldowns on certain fights might affect the effective use here.

Personally, I use Shield Wall proactively for when a large spike will come in (boss ability, healer occupied for whatever reason, picking up an extra mob temporarily, ...) and I use Last Stand as emergency button and extra HP buffer for my healers.
The reasoning behind LS is that it neither prevents, absorbs or restores damage you take. It temporarily adds 30% of your HP bar at the end your healers can use and will have to fill up again before the LS runs out. It does improve all abilities that heal relative to your max HP by 30%, which is why I have it macro'd with Enraged Regen nowadays. It restores 39% of my normal max HP over 10s and gives my healers a buffer of 30%. Together they are a powerful cooldown, but because ER is a 3min CD, I see little use in improving LS to 2min.

Personally I use Glyph of Devastate (>5% TPS increase single target btw), Taunt and either Cleave (heroics) or Shield Wall (raids). I prefer to change target once every 20s and Devastate that one to keep up Sunder than glyphing it, Taunt I use because I kept forgetting to glyph it where needed and Cleave/SW is simply because in heroics I'm better off getting 60% reduction as I won't be needing the faster CD and Cleave helps a lot on secondary threat ofcourse (more than Sunder btw).

Anyway, I think there's plenty of arguments in this thread to base a decision on, go with what helps your raid the best.

Kiyah
12-22-2009, 07:56 AM
Since the newer content has a lot more spell damage flying around, I found it's much easier to tank with imp. SR right now. Before, I would never put points into it. But because it seems you can reflect even boss damage, it's helpful in more situations right now even in ICC.

That being said, once people are over geared for the content as will undoubtedly happen. I will most likely spec out of ISR and get something else.

Grymauch
12-22-2009, 11:00 AM
Alright, that does sound like a good idea. I hate switching glyphs out though, cause it's harder for me to adjust so I think I'll do Last Stand, block, and devastate.
I'll echo what Aggathon said above, and suggest that you make peace with your 'hate', carry around different glyphs, and adapt to the situation. Glyphs are cheap and very easy to replace (just takes a couple seconds). I personally carry around 10 different stacks of glyphs. Proper use of glyphs is a powerful tool every tank should have in their arsenal.

If you're looking for a balanced set of glphs, LS, Blk, and Dev are a fine mix of survivability and threat. However, as you tank harder content you'll want to take advantage of optimal glyphs. For example, on many fights you'll really want the Taunt glyph (like Saurfang and Northrend Beasts). Glyphs can even be 'fun', I love using the Cleave glyph in 5mans (even built a spec around it :).

Bluepepper
12-22-2009, 12:47 PM
I second with Wartotem on the effectiveness of Improved Spell Reflect in PVP vs. PVE encounters. This ability comes in real handy in PVP (WSG, EotS) when you're carrying a flag or supporting your team's flag carrier.

When it comes to abilities like Shieldwall and Last Stand I find them much more useful when I use them proactively versus reactively in raid encounters. Ever since I glyphed for the reduced cooldown on shieldwall and fully talented for Improved Disciples I've noticed that my survivablity has gone up.

Wartotem's post has a very nice effiecency analysis. I'll try and look at this from a survivabilty perspective. I made my own post for the math behind Last Stand and Shieldwall as my reply did start to become rather lengthy. I'm pretty much reaffirming some of what Wartotem said although I do disagree a bit on his take on the value of improving laststands frequency of use.


http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/60362-laststand-shield-wall.html#post342827

Frostglaive
12-22-2009, 05:49 PM
So I've been playing around with the recommended talent setup, and using glyphs of Shield Wall, Last Stand, and Block. I do enjoy the less damage I take, and it seems even in heroics I still keep up on AOE threat. The less sunder stacks is annoying, but I think I've adjusted to it nicely.

Along with the glyph comments of me carrying them around, I'm on a server that is full of retards so prices of these glyphs are outrageous. I've only been carrying around glyph of devastate, but I find I really don't need it that much even though it's wonderful on threat.

Also, glyph of taunt? I can see how this needs to be put in on northrend beasts, Saurfang, etc. But I don't see why I'd need it that much. Like I said, really trying to stick to a certain glyph type.

EDIT: Laststand + Enraged Regeneration. Should I swap out glyph of last stand and just stick with using these two together? I've been doing it with the glyph, and seems to work find. What do you guys think?