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View Full Version : Has anyone tried having two dedicated 10 man teams in the same guild?



Ook
12-18-2009, 12:37 PM
Good afternoon,

Our guild is currently growing slow but sure, which leaves us in a situation where we could potentially have two ten man squads fairly often but would need to PUG for 25 mans. Based on Lore's videos on raid leadership, it struck me that a good potential solution to what we have is doing committed 10 man squads, to help build chemistry within those units and be more successful as a whole.

My thought was to take the 20 most active players, put the in two squads and then have a floating pool of replacements if people are not able to make it on any given night...This has the potential downside of some people feeling excluded, but we also have plenty of people who are not nightly players so spots would be fairly easy to come by.

Anyone tried anything like this? Any pros/cons anyone can offer? Any input or suggestions that can be offered, we be much appreciated.

Ook

Garrek
12-18-2009, 06:09 PM
Been there, done that, got a headache, and currently trying again.

The biggest issue you'll run into surrounds scheduling conflicts. If 2 folks from group A can't show for whatever reason and there's 5 folks from group B on, it's difficult to tell the group "PuG or disband" for the night. If 2 folks from group B end up going then you end up with the same thing when group B goes. One of the alternatives we found was making sure the two groups never raided on the same night so that alts were always available to help out the 'other' group when needed, but we found that most folks who started doing that ended up getting burned out exceedingly fast on the content.

Also, if the two groups are strictly formed it's inevitable that one group will be more progressed than the other at some point the better performing folks in the lower progressed group will feel held back by the folks in their group and either want to get onto the other group by any means possible, QQ to the point of wanting to kick them, or just plain leave for greener pastures.

Ultimately what we found in the past was that if you can earnestly staff two 10s groups, then you should be very well suited to just organize one 25s group simply by recruiting a few more people. Then the 10s are what get randomly formed or even PuG'd throughout the week when you're not running the 25s.

Like I mentioned my guild is currently in the same predicament after starting as a 10s guild in early BC, expanding to being a 25s guild, surviving a drama-induced fracturing of the guild in early WotLK, and slowly rebuilding to the point where we're at about the same place you describe. Best of luck to you in getting things to work out.

Penlowe
12-18-2009, 09:17 PM
Well, this may blow your mind a bit, but my guild has one 25 man dedicated team and five dedicated 10 man teams, at various levels. Yes, all of the players on the 25 are in one of the tens. Now to give you a better frame of reference, our guild carries 495 toons representing roughly 240 unique individuals.
So the ratio of raiders (50) to general guildies (240) is roughly 1:5

Not very scientific, but might give you something to chew on.

Turelliax
12-18-2009, 09:19 PM
My guild has 2 ten man teams (technically 3) and theya re on 2 seperate nights. People on these teams now there dedicated night and we actually have about 14 people assigned to each team. We have a bit of a competition between the 2 teams and I really lie it.

Wars
12-18-2009, 09:22 PM
Right now, we have so many damn people, we have 2 twenty-five mans(a team/b-team and a few alts).

And then we have FIVE(5) ten man main groups. That's right, five.

Also we're all done with the week right now. But I'm going to do an acheivement run on my DK sunday.

Also, we have about 90 total accounts, probably 70 unique people that come online. Yay dedication.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tChVRxmcCh9QtVGoz6JeVKw&output=html
That's our list of 10mans, except when wednesday came and ICC25 was cleared, we blew the groups apart and just destroyed that chart.

Purple FTW!

Fledern
12-19-2009, 01:51 AM
What Garrek said.

Right now, even though we're a 25man guild, we still have 2 major 10mans running, along with a 3rd, sometimes even a 4th 10man and you wouldnt believe the amount of qq.

Our 10man strict grouping started with ulduar hardmodes. One group really took off and now represents the very best raiders of the guild. The second group never really formed the same close ties - everybody was having visions of "jumping" to the first group even though the 2nd group was just as good.

The problems that arise when you have 2 groups and one lacks a person is pretty hard. If you grab somebody from groupB, you fuckup that group. On the ulduar groups, i ended up disbanding groupB until groupA was done with the hardmodes, then disbanded groupA to work on groupB - just to ensure no crossgroup qq would arise.

Right now we have 2x10mans running. Preferably the same day. As a 25man guild with some casuals & backups, we have enough people for a 3rd, even a 4th. Everybody wants in but ofc it's not feasible to have enough tanks or healers for so many 10mans. What we are doing is running 2 10mans simultaneously on the same night. Anybody who doesnt get a spot is assured there'll be a 3rd. We make a special point of distributing the good players so that nobody feels the underdog team. The 3rd and the 4th team get tanked/healed by alts. On that note, the alts i'm talking about are usually better geared than most mains on the server so the runs arent hampered by inadequate equipment.

In the last 4 years, we very very rarely kicked people from the guild - mostly ninjas. But these last 2 weeks, we ended up kicking 2 people for excessive drama over 10man invites. Expect the qq to be that hard. Also, the people handling all 4 groups are near the point of exhaustion, so once you get the people for 25man, you might want to consider limiting your 10mans.

Bovinity
12-19-2009, 09:48 AM
As long as you don't let yourself fall into an "A-Team" and "B-Team" mentality where you try to cannibalize all the best geared/skilled players from one team to populate the other you should avoid too much QQ.

Penlowe
12-19-2009, 10:18 AM
Allowing teams to pick their own names can help get away from the 'team A', 'team B' thing too.
Our 25 man is Kool & the Gang because the raid leader is Ohyeakoolaid :D
There is also Raid With a Bagel, Fred is an SOB, etc. all just silly.

Padinbann
12-19-2009, 10:24 AM
idk if it was mentioned but what we do is we have 2 10 man groups going though ICC atm once they both clear it we switch the groups around switching tanks DPS and ehalkers so everyone can get accustomed to working with each other

we normally have the 2 best geared tanks lead it one in one group one in the other we pick our offtank i had a DK this week and the other group had a Pally and then the officers try and evenly split everything up the only problem is we are short healers (go figure) and one group runs with 2 healers and the other with three we normally try and put the better healer in the 2 healing group we 2 healed most of my groups run till we got to overload then ran into a brick wall at 20 percent but we will kill him tonight im hoping

Crenellated
12-20-2009, 05:26 PM
My guild has tried many times to get a second ten man team going. It rarely happened in Ulduar, we didn't have a second raidleader or the amount of people to do it.

In ToC, we managed to get two groups going. The RL for the second group worked extensively with his raiders and ended up building a better team than the one created in Ulduar. Now in ICC, we have 3 ten man teams; our two from ToC and one for the people that have rotating work scheduals, it has a wierd schedual.

The most important thing for us was when the second ToC group got Mad Skill before the late group, even though the late group got the first Tribute to Skill. I really think this helped create the third team, because there was no longer people waiting to get into the late group.

As someone else mentioned, naming the teams is one of the best things you can do. The Late Group (sometimes called Barbie Doll) is one of our teams, Team M the second, and Team Tubman the third. If you have issues with people attending, recruit more. It took a while, but that's what we did and it has defineatly made our 25 mans more consistent and enjoyable.

Spiritus
12-20-2009, 05:37 PM
The way I work 10s is to build two groups out of 20 every week, balanced based on crucial buffs, ability, and gear. I rarely goof up the split and everyone seems fairly happy with the system. I think "teams" can cause issues, so I don't have em.

Of course, that means your raid leader must know everyone's strengths and weaknesses and what is an "essential" and "non-essential" buff.

EDIT: Once I had only one Shaman and someone light-heartedly qq'd about only one group having heroism. I switched the shaman into his group and told em to take hero off his bars =P. Both 10s full cleared easy.

orcstar
12-20-2009, 06:04 PM
A-team B-team.
I'm in a 25 men guild.
And what I saw, the more ambitious, the better players are gona hug together because they want to clear content as fast as possible. Those are often also the more knowledgeable players.
The troubles I ran into was the less ambitious players. They want to go for a seconds hardmode group for their Ulduar drakes or for The Trial of the Grand Crusader mount. But only when they see it can be done.
We had those 10 people. We spent the extra hours learning the encounters. And we got little people who expressed an interest in going. The interest "suddenly spawned" when the guildchat was filled with the achievement for the drake when we got firefighter. Only then people began asking to also get in.

Same for TogC 10. We put in the hours. We made the wipes. And while for Ulduar less, immediately when we got 45 tries left the whines started. People suddenly feeling left out.

And here comes my biggest beef. So you make a 2nd group. Those people all do 25 men raid, even hardmodes. But where in the original group there was a good atmosphere, those people think they're just gona faceroll it. Every wipe is a drama. An hour wiping on Mimiron people didn't expect it to be hard. TogC, finishing with 42 tries left. And people are disappointed they didn't make 50 tries. People who we on their first darn TogC run, expecting to faceroll it and get a mount.

I stopped it.
I have my set group now. For 10 mens. A few guildies, a few non guildies. A group of ingame friends who can have a laugh but play seriously when needed.

I don't want the headaches no more of people expecting to be carried or people vastly overestimating their own skill.

phaze
12-20-2009, 09:16 PM
Allowing teams to pick their own names can help get away from the 'team A', 'team B' thing too.
Our 25 man is Kool & the Gang because the raid leader is Ohyeakoolaid :D
There is also Raid With a Bagel, Fred is an SOB, etc. all just silly.

Seconded. Pre-LK, our 10man was Team Rocket (http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/9/7/27/f_teamrocket1m_228a068.jpg). With some roster changes since LK, we're now Rocket Surgery (http://files.ketchuponline.com/sebspeakerwg2yz2.jpg)!

Natal
01-19-2010, 10:06 AM
Right now my guild is currently running 2 10m teams for ICC.

We have an abundance of dps (lol obviously) and we have 2 back up healers who normally get on.

Luckily, each person communicates well with one another and they schedule when they will be there and not be there with one another. Then they sign up on our site by Monday.

Some problems we run in to is have "perfect group makeup". I must say most members are decently skilled and can make up for the lack of a certain needed class, but it can be frustrating.

We only have 4 tanks though which is a major problem, our goal is to get 5 and maybe a 6th. Just when we do 25m content it will be hard to rotate them in.

Proletaria
01-19-2010, 02:39 PM
I don't set 10mans up myself. I encourage the raiders to form them on their own terms.

Of our 30ish player raid roster about 2-4 don't have a regular team (some are entirely guild teams, others have friends of guildies, and some guildies just run with a mostly non-guild team).

In the past, I had tried judicar style raid-splitting from the top, and it led to nothing but bad blood. This might not be the case for every guild, but it's certainly something to expect and be aware of when deciding who is on X or Y team.

That's my 2c anyhow, encourage the teams, don't form them yourself. It saves time, effort, drama, and confusion.

Primebeef
02-02-2010, 06:41 AM
Never have consistently the same ppl in a ten man run (unless they are gf/bf or close relatives). Otherwise you risk creating a them vs us mentality. If your guild regularly runs ten man x2, be sure to mix the players each week.

Papapaint
02-02-2010, 03:01 PM
I tend not to care too much about 10 man progression for myself, so what I tend to do is use 10 mans to get to know my guildies better and spend more intimate time with them.

All of my officers run their own, I suppose "A Team", while I, as the GM, put together the "B Team" and run with them. This way I remove the concept of favoritism, get to push my second-string raiders to perform better, and also even spur some competition between my raiders and officers (in a healthy way, of course).

Njordus
02-02-2010, 04:53 PM
We're running 2 10 mans right now actually. Group 1 consists of our ulduar hard mode group, and group 2 is 10 other raiders from our 25s. The biggest problem we had was finding a capable leader for group 2, since group 1 is mostly officers and all our Raid leaders from 25. We've finally found one and its been going great. They are less progressed, of course, but in time they will do just as well as our group 1.

Luckily we do have a good split, and the leader of group 2 is an ex-member of group 1 that simply didn't want to raid at the times that group 1 did. We have strived to have good comps on both: 2 melee dps, 3 ranged, and 3 healers, one of which can do dps. 2 tanks with at least 1 tank that can go dps. 1 shaman in each raid, at least 1 pally, priest, and druid in each raid. We have no double ups on the dps or healers, and deliberately split 2 unholy dk dps and 2 mages up for this, as well as swapped a priest and a resto druid.

the big key is that each group feels confident in their prowess, has a good group make-up, and a capable leader. Good luck.

Irons
02-02-2010, 09:36 PM
I don't see why not.

I know it's a bit old, but back in vanilla, I was running a guild that was tied for 2nd rank on our server, and we were fielding two 40 man raids per week. How you do it depends on what kind of guild you are in. We were a hard core progression guild, raiding 5-6 hours a day, 6 days a week. We put all our best into our progression raid, and the rest went into the non progression group. If for whatever reason someone from the first group couldn't make it (which was rare, everyone was very dedicated, and hungry for DKP) we filled from the second group. Once things were on ezmode farm, we started to mix the groups a bit for that particular raid instance, both to improve the quality of the second raid by augmenting it with some of the more experienced, better geared players, and to improve upon the skills of the second group's members. It also helped make sure most of the loot was put to good use, instead of it all being sharded in the first group.

People didn't complain about how things worked. Old core members got gear first because they had more DKP. Newer members got geared up pretty fast, because after a while, the core group had most of what they needed.

Things are different these days though. Everything has a more casual feel to it. Might be harder to pull it off, without rebuilding a whole new guild from the ground up, with that structure already in place, and with a good core group of raiders to start the ball rolling with.

Marksmage
02-05-2010, 04:57 PM
My guild is in a situation where we have 2 full guild 10 mans comprised of 32 players. Yes, I know that doesn't add up. We have a bunch of dps but only enough tanks/healers for the 2 groups. We have an every-other-week rotation for the dps. Those on off weeks are free to pug or run with guildies alts. This rotation is nice in that we don't cancel raids because somone doesn't show. We always have the off week person for that spot or trials/members (members in our guild are ranked below raiders).

Swarfie
02-06-2010, 12:24 PM
My guild is strictly 10-man, and we just launched our third group. Each leader sends out invites guild wide and people sign up for whichever fits their schedule mostly. There are some that will run with one group over another, but there hasn't been any major drama between the three groups yet.

Illidra
02-12-2010, 07:09 AM
This is my first post here so i hope it helps.

We avoid having set teams, naturally in 25 man's we have our 'core raiders' who know the tacts fluidly, know how to tweek a composition for max gains, but in 10 man we take who is available, who is dedicated and who turns up for 25 man progression nights.

IMO the reason we can do this is because alot of our higher rank members have the capabilities and knowledge to raid lead or at least co-lead a raid.

For example this week Me and the other tank were the main voices in the raid, but we were also being supported by 2 officers giving advice and helping us keep everyoen focused.

In the other 10 man group one of the officers from ours will be present on his main, but he will also be with 2 raid leaders.

By having so many raid lead capable members (but limiting the people who are allowed to start raids to 3 or 4) means that raids get formed effectively, with balanced set ups that vary in who is included and the groups maintain a solid focus and a stable atmosphere throughout the raid night.

The issue that can occur is the raid leaders all believing their way is best. I am lucky in that i am one of the most wotlk experienced players, not progress wise but playstyle wise and my guild all respect that i know what i am doing with tactics, class balance and achievable goal standards. they trust me, alot.

if you can get your guild members to trust in all of your raid leaders it should make the process alot easier and make people alot more comfortable with occasionaly being benched or swapped between grouops.

Rahnken
02-13-2010, 12:25 AM
My old guild during Ulduar tried having two 10 man groups (a hard-mode group and a non -hard-mode group) and it seemed to work fairly well, the only problem was the lack of geared tanks/healers really limited the non-hard-mode groups progression through the content, as a result the drama between the groups started to pour over into our 25 mans and the guild eventually broke up, so i would issue caution when having two raiding teams, it can work, it just can get a little dicey when progression slows due to lack of gear or skill or even just dedication to the raids

Voddy
02-17-2010, 09:26 AM
Back in the days of early Naxx, my old guild were running 3 10 man naxx groups a night. It worked really well, and we were battling it out to see who could clear it the fastest. (Our team lost out by 7 mins -_-). Anyway, we each assigned newcomers to the guild into groups and we went and helped this newcomers get a feel for raiding and to get gear for our 25 mans.