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Aggathon
12-17-2009, 10:24 PM
***OUT OF DATE***

How To Warrior: Aggathon’s guide to gems/enchants/specs/gear
Or how I learned to stop caring and love the stam.

Table of Contents:

I. Introduction

II. General Questions and Answers

III. Gemming

IV. Enchanting

V. Talent Specs/glyphs

VI. Gear

I) Introduction:
First off, go read the frequently asked questions thread in the HALP! Forum. A lot of questions will be answered by simply reading it, and even then it has some very useful knowledge that you will want to know down the road: Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/41907-frequently-asked-questions.html)


This guide is meant to be more of a "nexus" for information, rather than a compendium of all tanking information. Most of what I'm saying has been posted on Tankspot for a while, however I realize how daunting it can be to go to a new forum where there is tons of information scattered about. A lot of people might just say "aww forget it, I'll just make my own HALP! post because I am overwhelmed with the information here." I know I might do that. So, the goal of this guide is to give you the basic information you are probably looking for, and to point you in the right direction for other posts that contain more information to answer your questions.

I’d like to go ahead and preface a lot of what I am going to say with some qualifiers. First, this guide is going to focus on warriors. For pallies, DKs, and Druids the suggestions may differ a little bit. Not all tank classes are created equal and thus, depending on the situation, different classes may need to spec/gem/gear towards different stats, or may be able to spec/gear/gem differently. Also, when I refer to “EHP” I am not talking about “Hit Points” I am talking about “Effective Hit Points” which is Armor +HP. If you have 100HP you have to take into account that you also have 60% or more reduction from armor, so with that 100HP you can actually take roughly 250HP worth of damage, therefore the EHP value is higher than the raw HP value. Plug it into an EHP calculator and you’ll see what I’m talking about. Tankspot’s is pretty stellar and there’s also a mod you can get to view values in game called Tankadin2[1].

I am writing a lot of this because the majority of the stuff that is asked in the “HALP!” forum is really the same questions asked over and over. These answers are given frequently in other threads and throughout the site, but sometimes there’s no one specific thread you can look at. I’m not saying that this post is going to be the compendium of all warrior knowledge or something, however I believe it will give a very good initial guide on how to better your character so that you can be ready for ICC, or whatever next raiding content you are looking to get into. If you still have more questions after reading this, feel free to make a HALP! Post, or post here, or even send me a PM if you want and I shall try to answer with the best of my ability.

I welcome constructive criticism. I am willing to admit I am wrong if proven otherwise. Some things are a matter of opinion and I will try and provide not only my philosophy on tanking decisions, but the other philosophies out there and why I have chosen the path I have. If you disagree, I welcome discourse, however I ask that you please be courteous, try to stick to facts, not engage in ad hominim attacks, and be civil in your discussion of the matters.

I hereby apologize for any bad grammar and/or spelling. However, I don’t apologize for any movie references or a terrible sense of humor. Puns may or may not be free game either.

II) General Questions and Answers

A lot of the questions that have been asked recently focus on stats. “What should I gem for?” “I’m not hit capped what can I do about it?” “What is the defense cap” “When do I stop gemming expertise?” or "How can I get more threat?" Here I shall answer these questions. In addition I would also suggest looking at Martie's http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/60380-everything-tanks-need-know-about-caps.html

"What is EHP/Why should I stack it?"

Short answer: because I say so. Long answer: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?66564-Why-We-Do-What-We-Do-%28An-in-depth-explanation-of-EHP-and-ICC-3.3.3-tanking-mechanics%29

“What is the Defense Cap?”
There is no real defense “Cap” persay, however there is a defense minimum. When tanking you want to be uncrittable. For raid bosses this is 540 defense (5.6% uncrittable, bosses have a base 5% chance to crit +.2% for every level, so against a level 83 it is 5.6% chance to crit), for heroics it is 535 defense (5.4% chance to not be crit). However, a lot of people use the 30stam/15resil shoulder enchant, and because of the resil it actually knocks down the numbers to 536 defense for raids and 531 defense for heroics. It is more than permissible to keep stacking defense beyond this point since defense still adds to your dodge/parry/miss/block stats. If you want to read more on defense, I highly suggest: Defense (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/41796-defense.html).

“How do I get more hit rating? I’m not capped anymore!”
The short answer to this is: don’t. If you are doing your rotation correctly, threat really shouldn’t be an issue. Most people in high end T9 gear are raiding with 30 +/- 6 expertise and 60 +/- 40 hit. It is really NOT A BIG DEAL to be hit capped. I’d recommend looking elsewhere than hit if you are having threat problems because simply put, you just don’t need it. Threat for warriors is interesting because generating 1k TPS more doesn’t really matter as long as it is still higher than the highest DPS’s TPS, and probably won’t be the crux in beating an enrage timer. Threat right now is pretty much like saying, “I don’t have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you.”[2]

Many people get concerned that their taunts are going to miss if they don't have high hit rating.[3] This is true, however, it is far better to simply glyph taunt than it is to sacrifice survivability in your gear. If you are doing a fight that requries a taunt to land, just glyph it. For more on Glyphs, see the Glyph section below. And for more on taunt mechanics see the afformentioned foot note [3].

“How much expertise should I have?” or “What’s the expertise cap”
The expertise “cap” most commonly referred to is the “dodge” cap. Once you have 6.5% chance to not have an attack dodged, then you have reached the “dodge cap” for expertise, which is 26 expertise. The “parry cap” is much higher at 14%, or 56 expertise, however this number is purely academic. Once you have expertise that high, it’s contribution to threat is minimal, and the likelihood that a parry haste might gib you is also minimal, especially in ICC25, where the bosses don’t hit as hard as they would have if Blizzard hadn’t put in Chill of the Throne, but more attacks connect. For the most part 26 expertise is good to shoot for, and it is nice for threat since until 26 expertise it reduces 2 ways a boss can avoid your attack, but as long as you’re not having threat problems I wouldn’t worry about it. If you really need expertise I would use expertise/stam gems to match socket bonuses that yield stamina, preferably +9 or +12.

"Why is my Single Target Threat Bad?"
See: the answers to the expertise and hit questions, and also look at footnote [2] at the bottom of this guide for threat rotation/priority suggestions. I also recommend taking a look at http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/55633-complete-protection-warrior-dps-tps-spreadsheet.html if you're into spreadsheets!

"Why is my AoE Threat Bad?"
This is a more complex question. There are several things that can be done about AOE threat though. First off, make sure you are doing the normal threat things correctly, namely having a good threat build. You could also use a cleave spec build like you might find in Badga's Anub'Arak add tanking guide that you'll find in the gearing section of this guide. Really the most important thing to AoE tanking for warrios is cleave, and I highly suggest the cleave glyph. As is obviously you should always be hitting thunderclap and shockwave on cooldown, but they are often just barely good enough abilities to hold AoE threat. Now, most situations we're going to be talking about heroics or trash pulls, this is where most AoE tanking takes place. AoE tanking for Anub is a beast all on its own, and if you're wondering about AoE Threat for that, again go read Badga's guide. For heroics/trash what you want to do is tclap -> shockwave -> tclap and cleave whenever you have the rage to, I also highly suggest clicking or tabbing around the mobs with an eye on omen and shield slam/revenge/devastating any of the adds that the DPS are catching up on aggro from. I also suggest assisting DPS, especially if you have a DPS that typically pulls off of you. Make sure you keep vigilance on DPS like this also. I actually kind of like the challenge of not marking mobs and trying to hold AoE aggro on everything no matter what dps is damaging which target. However, if it becomes an issue, I would highly recommend marking a focus fire target and instructing the dps to focus on that. This way you can focus your single target threat on this NPC, and cleave/shockwave/thunderclap will give you enough AoE threat to hold the mobs off healers and give you a nice lead for the next target you are DPSing. Also, there's no shame in asking for misdirects or tricks of the trade if there are hunters and rogues around that can provide it.

“How do I look so far?”
If you follow the advice in this thread, then great! A lot of people want to know if they are ICC ready (or what instances they are ready for), but tbh, gear is only going to go so far, how good your healers are, how well you know your class, how well you know your limitations, and how good you use your cooldowns will make that question far more easily answered. Yes to an extent you do need certain gear levels, but if you follow the advice in this thread to try and min/max your character as best you can, then you can probably tank any normal mode content out there, and maybe even some hardmode content. However, if you cut corners, don’t use epic gems, don’t use the best enchants, and keep with some ilevel 200 gear instead of getting crafted higher ilevel 245 and badge gear, then you’re not doing your guild any favors and it will be a lot harder for you to tank the content.

III) Gemming:
Gemming for warriors becomes very simple: 32stam+2% armor meta gem. This gem requires that you have a red gem, so try and hit a red socket bonus with the highest amount of +stam possible, probably a +9 or +12 gem. Then gem the rest with +30stam gem for your standard EHP set.

It is also permissible and sometimes preferred that if there is a socket bonus of +9 or +12 stam, to hit that socket with a hybrid stam gem for the added benefit of another effect, albeit at a loss of stam. For the most part I prefer to stack stam, but it is very acceptable to do either way imo. Quibbling over very very small differences won’t make a break a fight.

Some fights might encourage more avoidance stacking than stam stacking. What you really want to do is gear/gem for fights. For example come hardmode time, Deathbringer Saurfang may require far more avoidance than EHP, same with the captain on gunship, but for now the safe bet is to do what tanks have always done for progression content at first: stack stam and go from there.

Red hybrid gem breakdown:
10 Expertise/15 Stam - if you have below 26 expertise and feel like you need the threat
10 Dodge/15 Stam - most avoidance
10 Agi/15 Stam - most EHP since agi gives armor and some avoidance too, but not as much as dodge rating, also gives a small amount of crit
10 parry/15 Stam - almost NEVER used, only used if the dodge DRs are high enough that parry becomes better than dodge. For more on this, I recommend looking at Diminishing Returns - Avoidance (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html). This will tell you when parry becomes better.


IV) Enchanting:

A) Cloak Enchants
I’m going to start out this section talking about cloak enchants, because the majority of time that someone posts wanting to know how to change their gear to survive better or what not, cloak enchant change is one of the first things I recommend.

There are 3 cloak enchants: 22 Agi (or 23 Agi for Engineers), 16 Defense, or 225 armor to cloak. I’ve seen a lot of people using 22 Agi. I myself an am engineer and when 23 Agi to cloak came live I was excited, however, it happened right when the nerfed Agi. I guess if you want a threat enchant the extra crit from agi is nice and it has some armor, but it actually provides less avoidance than 16 defense now. This means that the tank enchant at the moment is 225 armor to cloak assuming you are at the defense minimum. It provides a small amount of AP from Armed to the Teeth, and it calculates out to about 500 EHP. This would be as if there was a 20 or so stam to cloak enchant (this varies depending on your gear levels and amount of armor).

B) Shoulder enchants:

As screwy as this may seem, the best shoulder enchant blizzard has given to us warriors is 30stam/15 resil to shoulders. This enchant is beneficial for several reasons. First, it allows us to dip under the 540 defense minimum if we need to. Granted with ToC+ level gear this is never really an issue, but I actually did struggle with it a little back in ulduar, and the 15 resil allows warriors to drop to 536 defense and still be uncrittable. But secondly, and most importantly, it is the only enchant that adds to EHP at all, and it’s over 700EHP at that!!!! 30 Stam is really nice. Take it.

The other alternative is the exalted Sons of Hodir Enchant. It provides 20dodge/15defense to shoulder. If a fight requires stacking of avoidance then this enchant is the way to go, however at this current point in time I would suggest stam.

C) Chest encahnts:
Unless you are needing defense (in which case go with 22 defense to chest) the best choice is 275 HP to chest. It gives the most EHP, almost twice what 10 stats gives you. I think the small avoidance benefits from 10 stats are significantly outweighed by the extra HPS from 275 HP to chest.

D) Bracer Enchant:
40 stam is the only choice here.

E) Boot Enchant:
The options are 22stam and Tuskarr’s Vitality (15stam + minor run speed). Now yes 22stam is obviously more EHP, but the run speed comes in handy on TONS of fights, so I would actually recommend sacking 22stam here for Tuskarr’s Vitality, but I guess technically it’s personal choice. MY recommendation will always be Tuskarr’s though; the utility is just too valuable.

F) Leg Enchant:
Again, one choice, 55stam/22agi. Frosthide Leg Armor: http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50965 (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50965)

G) Glove Enchant:
Options include: 18 stam, 2%threat+10 parry rating, or 240 Armor. I guess if you’re having severe threat issues use the threat enchant, otherwise go with 18 stam or 240 armor. 240 armor for almost any level/combination of armor/hps ends up being more EHP than 18 stam, however the calculations are usually pretty close and if you are going to be doing a fight where there is any significant amount of magic damage, then 18 stam is the winner, but for the most part in current content 240 armor is the winner. However, if you are an engineer, then 885 armor to gloves is the best hands down. The 645 armor difference at my current gear levels as of typing this is equivalent to about 62 stam in terms of EHP.

H) Helm Enchant:
Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44150 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44150) from revered with the Argent Crusade. The Engineering helm enchant is another acceptable alternative, you gain 8 stam but lose 20 defense.

I) Weapon Enchant:
This is a highly debated topic. The enchants are as follows:
Titanium Weapon Chain: 28 hit http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41976 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41976)
Accuracy: 25hit/25crit http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44496 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44496)
Mongoose: Proc of 120 Agi and small haste http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22559 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22559)
Blade ward: Stackable Parry Buff Proc http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46027 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46027)
Blood Draining: Stacks a buff that heals you if you drop below 35% http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46348 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46348)

I personally would use: Mongoose for threat, Blade Ward for Avoidance, Blood Draining for EHP.

Blood Draining is a smart heal when you need it, in my opinion in a crisis situation where you drop below 35% health, it might as well be an extra temporary 4k EHP (the proc heals for about 2k HP). This is the EHP enchant. Mongoose has some value when it procs, but for warriors the uptime of Mongoose is too low for it to be useful imo. I don’t have a link to it, but for warriors Blade Ward is more avoidance than mongoose according to current theorycraft.

Some of this is up to debate and personal preference. I am a stack EHP proponent, so I say go with Blood Draining.

J) Shield Enchant:

The choices are as follows:
18 Stam http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28282 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28282)
20 Defense http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38954 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38954)
81 BV http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44936 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44936)

Again, I would advocate stam if you don’t need the defense, there are times when the 81 BV is very nice for threat though. Some will argue that the value of 20 defense is higher than 18 stam. I personally disagree, but I should mention it’s a viable option or I might risk being flogged.

K) TL;DR version:
Helm:Stalwart Protector
Shoulders:30stam/15 resil
Cloak: 225 armor
Chest: 275 HPS
Bracers: 40 stam
Weapon: Blood Draining
Shield: 18 stam
Boots: Tuskarr’s Vitality
Legs:55stam/22Agi
Gloves:240 armor (or 885 armor if engi)


V) Talent Specs/Glyphs:
A) Survival Spec
The first spec I am going to talk about is the “survival spec.” This is the spec that picks up every possible talent that would help a warrior survive.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZGV00xZVItMx0didczsGo:dTromz (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZGV00xZVItMx0didczsGo:dTromz)

Now, I personally don’t really like this spec because it wastes a bunch of talent points in Fury for things that in most 25 main raids will already be covered. Pallies will have Vindication for Demo shout, and a lot of fury warriors will roll with at least 4/5 commanding presence, depending on their spec. However if you are lacking these things or are in a 10 man where you are the only person that can give those buffs, then I would probably recommend it. However, I don’t believe it is optimal in most 25 man situations.

B) The standard or “threat” spec *updated for 3.3.3*
The next spec is the “cookie cutter” warrior spec. Some people throw a few points around differently and I will explain the changes, but the base line is http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZMItrx0didIzsGo This is the standard deep wounds spec. It maximizes threat and still has a great deal of survivability in it. It is flexible and versatile and is what I have used primarily for most progression fights since Ulduar.

This is not a set in stone spec, there are some things you can change, most notably are the points in focused rage. A lot of times it comes down to personal preference whether or not to use 2/5 shield spec and 3/3 focused rage or to take all 3 points in FR and drop them into shield spec. The trade off is basically that focused rage leads to more rage saved over time than shield spec does rage gained (especially in ICC) but shield spec is still slightly more mitigation. If you have no rage starvation issues at all, then spec 5/5 shield spec 0/3 focused rage

C) Glyphs:
There’s no one specific “these are the 3 glyphs you have no matter what” setup. I actually carry around several different glyphs and switch them out as needed.

If you need a raw survival setup, the best three glyphs are:
Blocking – The extra BV can add up to a lot over time and is very nice while shield block is up

Last Stand – 2 min cooldown with no downside, what’s not to like?

Shield wall – 2 min cooldown, but decreases the effectiveness. Typically 40% is enough and having it being able to be used again sooner is a definite plus, if you think you might shield wall twice in a fight, I recommend it. As a side note this works best when paired with imp disciplines. Some argue take both at the same time or neither, but considering on some fights you may want it but on other fights you may need to put on all threat glyphs or something and drop shield wall for a fight, but not respec, then I'd say it's acceptable to have it spec'd but not glyphed, however if you're going to use the glyph, you should definitely have it spec'd.

Other Glyphs to swap out as needed:
Glyph of Cleaving if there's any AoE tanking to be done

Glyph of Devastate for more threat, this is the best single target threat glyph by far.

Glyph of Taunt for any boss that you may need to guarantee a taunt lands, or at least increase the likelihood of it.[3]

Glyph of Vigilance for extra threat again, I actually almost never carry this glyph around, but it is something that many tanks use.

VI: Crafted Gear and Easy to Get Gear:

A) Crafted gear
There are 4 pieces of crafted gear right now that are very attainable (especially since triumph badges are free flowing) and are very very good pieces to have.

Boots: Spiked Death Dealers: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45560 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45560)

Belt: Indestructible Plate Girdle: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45551 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45551)

Bracers: Saronite Swordbreakers: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47571 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47571)

Chest: Breastplate of the White Knight: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47591 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47591)

If you do not have a piece of gear as good as one of these, then I highly recommend getting them made. It is fairly easy and they are typically big upgrades.

B) Gearing Guides:
There are several gearing guides for all levels already out here on Tankspot. I highly suggest you look at them:
Best in Slot?! Tanking Gear List Compilation! (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/47046-best-slot-tanking-gear-list-compilation.html) Gives good suggestions for EHP, Threat, and Avoidance.
Icecrown Citadel Prot Gear List (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/59655-icecrown-citadel-prot-gear-list.html) Also another very solid guide that gives options for all 3 different kinds of tanking gear
Are the T10 set bonuses worth it? (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/59680-t10-set-bonuses-worth.html) A breakdown of the T10 set and offset pieces for Icecrown
Anub'Arak Add Tanking Guide (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/57048-anubarak-add-tanking-guide.html) How to tank H-Anub25 adds, a VERY good guide that has lead to many a successful Anub kill, including my own guild's.
Cider's Easy 540 Defense Gear Guide (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/41986-ciders-easy-540-defense-gear-guide.html) Very good beginners guide.
Polar's Easy Pre-Naxx Tank Gear List (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/40966-polars-easy-pre-naxx-tank-gear-list.html) Another very good beginner's setlist.
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/60450-prioritizing-what-get-first-icc-rough-guide.html Raij's guide for ICC gear for 10M only raiders
http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/12/24/the-emblem-of-frost-pick-order/ <- Tankingtips.com's very very good frost emblem pick order guide. Now obviously these choices may vary based on what you already have, but it is a very good tool to help you decide what to get.


C) "Easy to Get Gear"
There is also a lot of gear that is puggable that you can get some very solid gear from, though not best in slot. If you have a modicum of gear and find similar players, then ToC25 is something that is something that you can probably PuG. Anub might be a little hard for a PuG, but for the most part normal mode is very doable. Any ToC25 gear is very good.

Helm: Helm of Wrath: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49479 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49479) If you can manage to get this, then it will save you badges getting the badge helm. It is a very solid helm that you will use until you upgrade to either the 258 T9 or you get an ICC level helm.

Neck: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44665 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44665) This is the quest neck from Saphiron in naxx. All you have to do is kill Saph and Maly (And you don’t have to clear the wings to do saph any more) and you can get this neck. Gem it with 30 stam and it is a very viable budget neck until you can get ToC25 level stuff.

Shoulders: I recommend trying to get T9 shoulders, even if you only have access to 232 level gear, they are very good. However the emblem of triumph shoulders are probably better than the 232 shoulders.

Cloak: If you have the emblems of frost to spare, the new frost badge cloak is VERY good, might even be best in slot until
hardmodes. Otherwise the platinum mesh cloak from valor badges is a very acceptable cloak until you can get a better one from Ulduar or ToC.

Weapons: Rimefang's Claw - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50268) - Sword
Falric's Wrist-Chopper - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50290) - Axe

Shield: If you have the cash and can’t find a shield you could buy “Northern Barrier.” It’s a BoE Ulduar drop.
Trinkets: Glyph of Indominability, The Black Heart, and Essence of Gossimir are all very easily obtainable trinkets and are also pretty decent. Glyph and The Black Heart will take you far into content

Rings: These are a bit trickier to get good ones, but there is a decent crafted one to start out with: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42643 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42643) And the ring that drops in H-ToC5 is also very good: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47243 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47243) although it doesn’t have any defense on it, so if you are low on defense this may not be an option. However one of the best rings to pick up is http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47731 acquirable by 35 emblems of triumph. It is one of the best pre-hardmode rings and you will definitely get good mileage out of it. For EHP it is actually better than the 258 H-Band of the Traitor King if the damage is all physical.

Legs: There aren’t very good choices for budget legs. I’d say go for tier 8 or 9 legs or if you can get them from ToC25 try to grab http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47273 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47273). There are also Legs that drop off of Kologarn in ulduar25 that are pretty decent(http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45267). If you can drop the money for them, then you should really go for "Pillars of Might." These are ICC crafted legs that will give you amazing mileage, they are pretty much best in slot: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49904

Gloves: I’d recommend either T9 gloves or the new frost emblem gloves.

Belt: Indestructible Plate Girdle is one of the better belts you can get until you get the frost emblem belt. It is a crafted item so no raiding is involved, just money and/or farming: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45551

Boots: Spiked Deathdealers (http://www.wowhead.com/?search=Spiked+Deathdealers) are another very good crafted option. You could also craft Boots of Kingly Upheaval (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49907), but I don't think it is worth the money and there are other boots that are comparable from raiding content, however if you have the money and don't think you can get better from raiding, then by all means, get them made.

C) Comparing Gear
When gearing for a progression fight, sometimes you might find it hard to decide which piece of gear is better. For that you need to look at the mechanics of the fight(s). But additionally, a good tool to decide which is best is theckHD's N-EH formula, Maintankadin &bull; View topic - "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=26831&sid=e2afdefdec87011494f881adf7986a49&rb_v=viewtopic). <- this is must read material!!!!

Elitist Jerks also just released a new prot warrior spreadsheet for 3.3 http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t84604-tanking_spreadsheet_3_3_a/ It is a very solid spreadsheet that can help a lot. Thanks to krc for pointing it out.

Another very good tool for checking out different gearsets is http://rawr.codeplex.com/
It is an out of game tool that allows you to put on different gear and automatically calculate all kinds of fun theorycrafting values, such as EHP, Damage Reduction, Total Avoidance, etc. etc. etc. However as a caveat, you should really use Rawr carefully and make sure you know what mode you're in and also what you are tanking in game, raw numbers can only give so much for a tank. As my signature says, dps is science, healing is art, tanking is strategy. From a pure DPS perspective taking the raw scientific approach is in most cases excellent and should be followed. Rawr is extremely good at that, however Rawr cannot simulate boss fights, the playstyle of your healers, or different strategies for tanking X boss fight. Before you just start diving into Rawr, I suggest you read Badga's post about it http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/60155-aggs-prot-war-tanking-guide-2.html#post347107 and also Kojiyama's counter argument http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/60155-aggs-prot-war-tanking-guide-2.html#post347194 and be sure to use the tool wisely. It can be very powerful, but be careful in how you use it, raw math is not the only factor to tanking.

I hope this guide helps! If you still have questions ask! Either post in this thread, make your own HALP! Thread, or even if you wish send me a PM and I’ll try to help you out further.

[1] EHP is actually a bit more complicated than just HP/Armor. So, time for a quick crash course here:

Armor is really damaged reduced, which means that any modifier that reduces the damage you take also increases your EHP. EHP is a kind of magical number that is used to equate all of those reduced modifiers to "effective hit points" as if that would be the number of hit points you would have if everything was unmitigated. The calculation is actually something like:

EHP = Hit Points/[(1-%dmg reduction)(1-%defense reduction)(1-%other dmg reduction)]
And you can repeat the (1-%other dmg reduction) for each successive modifer that you have, for example the 10% decreased damage done that priests and shamans do, and the reduction from blessing of sanctuary. This will give you your "Effective Hit Points" number and you can use these values to calculate if armor would be better for you than stamina, etc. etc.

[2] Threat - in regards to hit and expertise as stated above, it is not fully necessary to gear for threat since our innate threat should be enough, as I said, unlike dps it's not about putting out as much as you can, you just have to be able to put out more threat than the top dps. Here are some general tips to help with that.

1) Shield Slam is your friend! Your best friend! Shield slam as MUCH as possible for maximum threat.
2) Manage your rage. If you have less than about 40 rage, then you should save it to ensure you get in more shield slams and devastates thus avoid queueing up another heroic strike. If you have enough rage, then keep HS up as much as possible.
3) The priority should go: Shield Slam -> Revenge ->Devastate while keeping up heroic strike for maximum threat or for maximum DPS use Revenge -> Shield Slam -> Revenge while keeping HS queued up. Shockwave should also probably be used on cooldown. Shockwave might have some hit box issues, so use it wisely(but most of these have been fixed, so it's not usually a concern), but also it is good to use shockwave since it cannot be dodged or parried since it is an AoE effect. However it still applies to melee hit (not spell it).
4) Shield Block is also very nice for threat. I often get 1 shield slam off to activate glyph of blocking, then when the next shield slam comes up, I hit shield block before it and try to get in as many shield slams as possible with shield block up to get a big threat lead at the begining of fights.

[3] Hit rating and taunt. As I said before, for threat purposes hit rating doesn't matter, however there are a few bosses now that require you be able to taunt and not miss, especially in ICC. SaintVigeous originally posted this list here http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/60380-everything-tanks-need-know-about-caps-2.html#post348371 and I am going to adapt it here and kind of explain what we mean.

Taunt doesn't work on the hit cap, it works on the spell hit cap, and hit rating calculates differently for spell hit than melee hit. Actually, it's a better conversion. 40 hit is about 1.12% melee hit but it's 1.52% spell hit. However, the spell hit cap is also higher than the melee hit cap (which is 8% for prot warriors). The spell hit cap is 17%, so while hit rating gives you more spell hit, you also need more spell hit to get capped. Here's the breakdown. The +3% hit buff can be provided by shadowpriests or boomkins, however it also depends on them having the spell on the boss. If it's a single target boss that dps will be on anyways, then you probably don't have to worry about whether or not the debuff will be on the boss, however if it's a new add, you might not be able to count on that.

446 No buffs - 17% hit
420 Draenei - 16% hit + 1% Draenei buff
406 Hit Food - 15.48% hit + 1.52% hit from food
380 Draenei, Hit Food - 14.48% hit + 1.52% hit from food and 1% hit from Draenei
368 3% hit buff - 14% hit + 3% hit from buff
341 3% hit buff, Draenei - 13% hit + 3% hit buff + 1% from Draenei
328 3% hit buff, Hit Food - 12.48% hit + 1.52% hit from food + 3% hit buff
301 3% hit buff, Draenei, Hit Food - 11.48% hit + 1.52% from food + 1% from Draenei + 3% buff
237 Glyph of Taunt - 9% hit + 8% from Glyph of Taunt
210 Glyph of Taunt, Draenei - 8% hit + 8% from Glyph of Taunt + 1% from Draenei
197 Glyph of Taunt, Hit Food - 7.48% hit + 8% hit from Glyph of Taunt + 1.52% hit from food
170 Glyph of Taunt, Draenei, Hit Food - 6.48% hit + 8% hit from Glyph of Taunt + 1.52% hit from food + 1% hit from Draenei
158 Glyph of Taunt, 3% hit buff - 6% hit + 8% from Glyph of Taunt + 3% hit buff
132 Glyph of Taunt, 3% hit buff, Draenei - 5% hit + 8% from Glyph of Taunt + 3% hit buff
118 Glyph of Taunt, 3% hit buff, Hit Food - 4.48% hit + 8% from Glyph of Taunt + 3% hit buff + 1.52% hit from food
92 Glyph of Taunt, 3% hit buff, Draenei, Hit Food - 3.38% hit + 8% from Glyph of Taunt + 3% hit buff + 1.52% hit from food + 1% hit from Draenei

So basically in an ideal raid situation where you'd have hit food, either an spriest or a boomkin, and you are glyphing for taunt rather than sacrificing for it with gear (though hit seems to be more innate on T10 level gear than it was on T9 level gear) you need 118 hit to ensure your taunt doesn't miss if you are horde, and 92 hit if you are alliance.

For more on taunt mechanics in general, I suggest reading Jere's gudie about taunt(relavent to all classes): http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/50984-taunt-mechanics-guide-discussion.html

Armlessjoe
12-18-2009, 07:17 AM
Hit's a lot more important than you make it out to be. Missing taunts is not Ok. Hit is not only related to threat.

Reev
12-18-2009, 07:22 AM
Hit's a lot more important than you make it out to be. Missing taunts is not Ok. Hit is not only related to threat.

On taunt sensitive fights, you can glyph for taunt. If that still fails, keeping Vigilance on the offtank means you'll have another taunt available by the next global cooldown. Hit is nice, but it's certainly not a priority stat by any stretch.

drae
12-18-2009, 07:28 AM
Hit rating is overrated for warrior tanks. There are contingencies for all the critical un-avoidable effects. Taunt has a glyph, TC and Demo can be provided by other raid members. Hit is useful in select encounters only.

Agg I always thought the glyph of blocking worked on the initial shield slam as well, like the pally librams do. I could definitely be mistaken.

Armlessjoe
12-18-2009, 07:31 AM
Hit rating is overrated for warrior tanks. There are contingencies for all the critical un-avoidable effects. Taunt has a glyph, TC and Demo can be provided by other raid members. Hit is useful in select encounters only.

Agg I always thought the glyph of blocking worked on the initial shield slam as well, like the pally librams do. I could definitely be mistaken.

Would you honestly ever use the glyph of Taunt? No. =\

Why as a warrior tank would you ever ask your dps to tclap / demo shout for you? If you cant fit those into your rotation and still produce enough threat, you need to tweak your rotation. You might as well ask the fury warrior to stack sunders for you...

Let the tanks tank, and the dps do damage.

Reev
12-18-2009, 07:36 AM
Would you honestly ever use the glyph of Taunt? No. =\

Why as a warrior tank would you ever ask your dps to tclap / demo shout for you? If you cant fit those into your rotation and still produce enough threat, you need to tweak your rotation. You might as well ask the fury warrior to stack sunders for you...

Let the tanks tank, and the dps do damage.

Yes, actually, I would use that glyph, specifically for taunt sensitive fights. Glyphing based on the fight is a good practice. Which would you rather have? A tank with low hit rating but higher survivability who glyphs for taunt sensitive fights and otherwise wears normal glyphs? Or a tank with inferior survivability all of the time, who occasionally gets some minor use out of his hit rating? Even if you're melee hit capped, by the way, you need to the glyph of taunt to avoid missing.

Thunderclap is something I put up myself, but I usually leave Demo Shout to either our fury warrior or our ret paladins.

drae
12-18-2009, 07:50 AM
Thunder Clap - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47502)
Icy Touch - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49909) - The talent adds the additional 6%

Demoralizing Shout - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47437)
Vindication - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=26017#triggered-by)

Of course I provide my own debuffs, what I'm saying is if I miss and the debuff falls off for 2s, I don't care because there are other debuffs that do similar on the boss already. No I wouldn't ask my DPS classes to CAST my debuffs, that's retarded, the other two debuffs are up on the boss as byproduct of normal DPS rotations.

Seeing as how glyphs can be changed as long as your not in combat, why would you not use the taunt glyph where you need it, and stack defensive stats and expertise in lieu of hit? For the record I've had the taunt glyph in so many times I've lost count. I use it on every gormok encounter, every time we do anub, every time I do Thorim Hardmode, Steelbreaker last... pretty much anywhere I NEED to taunt NOW!

I run with 22 hit rating.

Armlessjoe
12-18-2009, 07:55 AM
Which would you rather have? A tank with low hit rating but higher survivability who glyphs for taunt sensitive fights and otherwise wears normal glyphs? Or a tank with inferior survivability all of the time, who occasionally gets some minor use out of his hit rating?

I would be annoyed if I had to swap out my glyphs every fight just to land a taunt. I've done these encounters for months, just like I'm sure you have, and I haven't changed a glyph in months. I've never had a problem with an encounter that I've needed to, nor have I ever had trouble in an application or stay with a guild as a consequence. Stacking minimal hit doesn't make me inferior, especially since the, maybe... 2%? avoidance lost is not going to make or break a fight. At this level of gear, you should be able to mitigate enough damage to be able to sacrifice that, but hey, that's just my opinion.

drae
12-18-2009, 08:00 AM
I would have to sacrifice ~1000 armor, a socket, ~40 stam, and ~10 expertise SKILL to achieve half the hit rating required to not miss without the glyph.

Glyph costs are minimal. Swapping glyphs on an encounter by encounter basis is no different then swapping gear out on an encounter by encounter basis, both will make you a better tank... there is no one universal set of gear or glyphs that will fit every encounter.

Hit is one of the last stats you want to stack. see Tanking Tips - Expertise is always better than Hit. (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/07/expertise-is-always-better-than-hit/) for more information on how hit rating interacts with your skills. It's really a good read even if you do disagree with the conclusion.

Armlessjoe
12-18-2009, 08:09 AM
Hit is one of the last stats you want to stack. see Tanking Tips - Expertise is always better than Hit. (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/07/expertise-is-always-better-than-hit/) for more information on how hit rating interacts with your skills. It's really a good read even if you do disagree with the conclusion.


I've read it, and I don't completely agree, but I'm going to drop this topic, since I think what we should be focused on, is a well written and put together post by Agg. The research is clearly thorough and a good read for anyone interested in progression tanking.

Bodasafa
12-18-2009, 08:22 AM
I'd like to offer up my Survival spec as an alternative to the "all buff" one most people wont need due to having vindication/dps warrior with commanding.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZhxZVItrg0didIzsGo:dicomz)

The 2 pnts in Imp Disc can be thrown anywhere. Thats just my personal preference.

Edit: Good Job on the guide Aggathon

Bodasafa
12-18-2009, 08:39 AM
Also for another reference to why you don't need to gear for hit check out Vene's podcast: Podcast #8: That is the game you are tanking - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/11/11/podcast-8-thats-the-game-youre-tanking/)

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 02:05 PM
I'd like to offer up my Survival spec as an alternative to the "all buff" one most people wont need due to having vindication/dps warrior with commanding.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZhxZVItrg0didIzsGo:dicomz)

The 2 pnts in Imp Disc can be thrown anywhere. Thats just my personal preference.

Edit: Good Job on the guide Aggathon

The survival spec is really more predicated around picking up imp demo and or commanding presence because with the 15/3/53 spec the only thing you're not grabbing for max survivability is 5/5 shield spec (I suppose 2/2 imp spell reflect for the -4% chance for spells to hit, but for most fights that's really not needed), and even then you can just swap the points out of focused rage, it's nbd. I stand by my spec suggestions! =P

RE: Hit. I'll modify the post later tonight answer taunt questions and a link to the glyphs. I fully agree with drae/reev that you can just glyph taunt at a much lesser loss to stats than to gem/enchant for it. I also agree with them that it is simply good practice to switch out glyphs on a per fight basis. I glyph taunt for any taunt sensitive fight and have never had a problem, but there are a lot of fights where being able to taunt just doesn't matter at all, and there's no reason to change your main gear setup to support those few times when you could simply glyph for it.

mistersix
12-19-2009, 11:20 AM
I know few of us have felt the sting of threat issues lately but I think we tanks know consider threat as an afterthought more than our dps. That's flawed. Flawed design and flawed behaviors. The best dpsers live for "the chase". They regulate their dps output according to our tps output. There's potentially shared blame if you hit a boss's enrage timer between the tank and the dpsers.

I'm not trying to be alarmist or over-emphasize threat but I'd encourage everyone to keep their ears peeled to comments from their dpsers about having to hold back every now and then. If you hear that on occasion then you might not be giving threat it's due recognition.

Slightly off-topic, but it was my understanding from Vene's blog that revenge is only dropped out in terms of tps. If your tps is fine you can still work it it into the rotation as normal for added dps (such as that is).

Kojiyama
12-19-2009, 12:25 PM
With the availability of improved Misdirection and the scaling properties of Vigilance, I'm not really sure threat is so much of an issue.

I mean, if Mages can't pull off a tank on Twins when they are doing 16k DPS to my 3k or whatever I scale to on that fight, I don't really feel like there are going to be too many serious cases of this in the future.

For those with TPS issues, often it comes down to rotation and glyphs. Glyph of Devastate is a massive TPS increase. Use of Heroic Strike and keeping your rotation clean is also critical.

Lastly, many great tanking pieces have Expertise on them, which is clearly the most efficient TPS increasing stat we have available when below the soft-cap.

With decent amounts of Expertise, Vigilance on a properly selected player (always think about fight mechanics! If it's Twins, use it on a Mage...if it's Anub add tanking, use it on a Warrior or DK, etc.), Devastate glyph, and proper support from your Hunters (and Rogues, if needed--even one ToT from 10k+ DPS Mutilate Rogues goes a long way!) threat should really not be a major concern.

mistersix
12-19-2009, 12:53 PM
Agreed. It's team play all the way (although in most cases I see rogues using ToT more akin to mages and FM than hunters and misd). I'm just advocating, as does GC, that while it's not a major concern anymore, it should still be *a* concern. Especially if you're not melting on bosses.

Kojiyama
12-19-2009, 01:38 PM
Well, the main issue I have with going for TPS is that it's not all that efficient.

GC can talk about DPS stats all he wants, but it doesn't change that Warrior tank DPS scales terribly and there really isn't any reward or payoff to gearing in that style.

After all, tank Warriors actually have pretty extreme amounts of Attack Power, high Crit rates, large amounts of Expertise, etc.. and still barely do 2k DPS in a lot of situations.

I actually find it a bit sad that after 58 ilevels of gear upgrades, I've barely raised my DPS over pre-instance Heroics by around 1k or less, even with huge upgrades to AP, Expertise, and such. :(

Aggathon
12-19-2009, 02:34 PM
Slightly off-topic, but it was my understanding from Vene's blog that revenge is only dropped out in terms of tps. If your tps is fine you can still work it it into the rotation as normal for added dps (such as that is).

That's not entirely accurate actually, it depends on what weapon you're using. I've been running a kind of weird spec/threat experiment that I may post the results to in a few weeks once I've eliminated all the different variables, but so far with the setup and a BQS if I just spam devastate and HS it gives me both maximum threat output and maximum DPS output. Single target tanking I did almost 2.9k dps.

I also have to agree again with Kojiyama again about threat. I think warrior DPS output is minimal at best. Tanks have 2 jobs: stay alive, which always comes first, and TPS to hold aggro off of the people that actually do DPS.

mistersix
12-19-2009, 02:53 PM
I'd love to see those results.

Aggathon
12-19-2009, 02:57 PM
Most of it is in a combat log I haven't uploaded yet and a video that's still sitting in just raw fraps format. And that I won't have time to deal with for a few days due to having to work so much and IRL.

It's pretty interesting though, during times that I'm not rage starved I got up to 10-11k TPS, the biggest problem was I end up dumping rage so fast that even though I was spamming HS constantly and there was no way it wouldn't have been que'd up, about 12% of my melee swings ended up still being melee hits instead of HS's because of rage issues. I may need to redo the spec to ensure I have all rage gen mechanisms possible and pick up both focused rage AND 5/5 shield spec. Also with the spec it's really hard to manage rage issue times, I end up dropping down to like 5 or 6k TPS if I'm getting rage starved. But... maybe I'll make another thread or something, this is kinda derailing this thread, I really don't want to release all the information until I have it all figured out because there are a lot of variables that you need to work through and the spec is very situational, I'll be sure to post the results when I have everything together though!

Genesis_Omega
12-19-2009, 10:29 PM
This is a very good guide for people seeking information who don't know these things, but one thing I saw were small things such as for the easily obtainible stuff, you missed out on the EoT Ring, that the EoT Shoulders are quite good as well if you arent intrested in the T9 stuff (My personal prefernce mind you), and that Kologarn drops a tank sword, neck peice, and shoulders...it is Auriaya who drops the tanking legs. Great read over all.

Aggathon
12-19-2009, 10:36 PM
oh wow, I can't believe I forgot Clutch of Fortitude. Good catch Genesis. I'll include the EoT Shoulders too. Edit: The Legs I'm talking about do actually drop from Kologarn25. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45267. I added the link to them in the post.

Aggathon
12-20-2009, 04:43 PM
I added some answers to threat questions in the general questions part (AoE and Single Target Threat issues). I also put up a link to WarTotem's TPS spreadsheet.

Aggathon
12-27-2009, 09:04 AM
I added a link to Martie's http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/60380-everything-tanks-need-know-about-caps.html in the general questions part.

Raij
12-27-2009, 11:58 AM
Awesome post Agg. Really good to have all this info in one well organized location. Gear guides are good, Chanting section very good, etc etc. Even a seasoned tank can get something out of this. Thumbs up!

krc
12-27-2009, 12:01 PM
Very good job Agg, hopefully this will reduce the wave of warrior questions we get on the HALP forum every day.

Aggathon
12-27-2009, 12:15 PM
Awesome post Agg. Really good to have all this info in one well organized location. Gear guides are good, Chanting section very good, etc etc. Even a seasoned tank can get something out of this. Thumbs up!

Thanks Raij, I also added a link to your guide as well now.

Raij
12-27-2009, 12:17 PM
Awesome, hehe. I read it all, very good read even though I know the info. Refresher courses are good, even after 5 years of warrioring.

Aggathon
12-31-2009, 01:17 AM
Added a link to Rawr, I thought I had included it but apparently I didn't.

Ragamuff
12-31-2009, 04:02 AM
As a newcomer to tanking this guide helped me alot!

Thank you :)

Badga
01-01-2010, 08:38 AM
Added a link to Rawr, I thought I had included it but apparently I didn't.

Just going to say something real quick about Rawr, it is a solid tool for certain numbers and viewing details, however as a tank I would HIGHLY not recommend using it to factor how you gem/itemize your gear. Note that I say that only from a tanking perspective. I see tanks all over the place gemming for 6 stam socket bonuses and they don't realize that the amount of EH they are losing from doing so it gets quite annoying to look at. Granted it is their gear and they can do what they want with it, I just find it more as a pet peeve to me. As the gear gets better our armor keeps going up and up thus increasing the value of our base stam.

However, it is still the mindset for tanks to GEAR FOR THE ENCOUNTER, I can't stress that enough. This is not meant to bash rawr or other tanks in anyway, shape, or form. There are countless tanks out there that still use the exact same gear for every single fight.

Some of the numbers presented in some of these various threads are highly informative to those that do know exactly how to do the math themselves and to those involved in such efforts you do deserve some type recognition. I haven't been posting as much as I would have liked on many of these threads because I am sure many of the higher end players think the same as I do and that what was once a great site for presenting numbers and theorycrafting is now turning into a bunch of people asking repetitive questions that have already been answered on previous threads but never take the time to read through them. One of the reasons I stopped posting on EJ at the end of BC was because of the exact same reason and which is now pretty close to a "dead" source of information from a tanking perspective. I have just simply stopped reading many of the posts just based on the fact that it is annoying to look at some of them at times. Props to landsoul though if he ever does read this on keeping up with the spreadsheet. Seriously, amazing job and excellent work over the years man.

I apoligize for the extensive post, but I felt like I needed to say what I KNOW many other people are thinking in high end progression guilds. Now that isn't only the mindset from tanks, but I have also heard from healers that I talk to and dps as well. I made sure to talk to several people to get their opinion because I felt it was just me thinking this for a while.

@armlessjoe... lol dude seriously if you have an issue with changing a glyph for a fight then you shouldn't be trying to put in an arguement, because you don't care to use common logic behind your reasoning. If you find it "annoying" to switch them out from fight to fight then tough luck man, that is what it takes. Just because you have done the encounter for months doesn't mean you have either done them to their most efficent manner. There is always a way to muster out more dps or do things better to improve for the next time. I am tired of people having the mindset of well we did it so we are right you are wrong... no sir you are wrong for thinking that. My guild has some of the fastest boss kill records in the world if you look at wmo I guarantee you will see us on nearly every single top dps report is that because we just have better gear.. no. We don't have the mentality of just because we did it means we are right and everyone else is wrong. Even on farm content we still find new and better ways to do fights. Example heroic anub.. this is changed with gear slightly however it is still the same principle. Just because we did it correct one time doesn't mean we do it the same way forever. We still look at combat logs and by changing positioning slighly and our kiting method and cooldown timing we now do it successfully with 1 sumberge as opposed to 2 and has made the fight A LOT easier for us. It is the mindset that we have when doing raids to always do everything each player can to make a fight that much easier or quicker and if that involves changing a glyph then by all means so be it. Our resto shaman has to change glyphs for heroic anub for phase 3 healing, and our dps warrior has to change out glyph of heroic strike with cleaving for many fights and he carries all of them on him at all times, why should any other class or player have an exception to such? Min/maxing is a part of raiding weather you like it or not and being able to do such a task is just humerous to me. You need to change your perspective sir. I apoligize if this comes off as rude to anyone it is not the intention I just am not a fan of people having that mindset.

There are other factors to take into consideration now and new numbers to account for that satrina's formulas do not do as effectively.

I am sure many people understand the basic formula of EH calculating and what have you however it doesn't factor in the amount of other source damage. It doesn't accurately reflect fights that contain BOTH magic and physical damage.

Aggathon solid guide btw, and the link below is also mentioned in your guide so excellent job on that as well ^_^

I am sorry if this went a bit offtopic.

Major props to theckhd on maintankadin, these formulas and information he did an outstanding job collecting and gathering information for what should be the NEW EH formula in my opinion. For those that do not read maintankadin I highly recommend checking out some of the information on there I've found it to be a better source in some situations.

Maintankadin &bull; View topic - "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=26831&rb_v=viewtopic)

Kojiyama
01-01-2010, 01:30 PM
You do realize that Rawr, even in Burst Time mode (which is based on formulas found on these forums) often recommends 30 Stamina gems and clearly says for the majority of times that 15 Stamina is better than 10 of other stats.

However, the simple fact that is matching gems generally does offer a survival time increase over pure Stamina stacking if the socket bonus is Stamina. The gain of a couple Stamina is often offset in pure numerical terms.

You can be a Stamina zealot if you like, and choose to ignore the math of course... but that doesn't mean the math is inaccurate. ;)

Personally, I find it a pet peeve that some Warriors are willing to give up 10 Def or Dodge rating just to gain 3-4 Stamina, but each to their own!

Interestingly enough, if you use Rawr in Burst Time mode to optimize a full set just as a matter of curiosity you will see it is nearly identical to the gear and gem selection that virtually every high-end Warrior MT uses... There may be slight differences in gemmings and such, but realistically the suggestions are as close as any other spreadsheet or item list would get you.

My advice is to use the tool and play around with either way and see what the results are. Compare how much damage you take with different configurations and compare to how much Health you have with them. As you say, gearing for the encounter is important but IMO far too many tanks gear by sticking their finger in the air and 'gearing by feel' instead of actually exploring what realistic impact their gear choices have.

At the end of the day, Rawr is a tool and will tell you what you ask it to. If you want to view/sort/optimize for just EH, it will do that. If you want to optimize for Burst Time/Total Mitigation%, it will do that. If you want to have a health threshold on top of that, it'll do that too. If you'd rather optimize for Avoidance %, that's one click away. If you need to meet a minimum TPS requirement, it will do that while it does the other things. It doesn't reflect any specific method of gearing--that's up to you to decide what you ask it to tell you.

Aggathon
01-01-2010, 07:49 PM
Gemming for 6 stam is a 9 stamina loss though, not 3 or 4. I have to agree with badga that gemming for a 6 stam bonus is an overall loss in survivability. Numbers may suggest otherwise, and for 1 socket it doesn't much matter, but experience has taught me: gem for EHP. Dodge is not EHP.

Also thanks for the props badga... I think I may actually add that caveat to read both you and Kojiyama's for opinions on Rawr, I personally only use it to see what my stats would be should I pick what *I* want to gear for, I don't really mess around with some of the fancier aspects.

Edit: caveat added in post with suggestion to read both badga and kojiyama's posts.

Kojiyama
01-02-2010, 07:01 AM
Well, that's a fair enough standpoint.. but my point is that Rawr is pretty much agnostic when it comes to a specific viewpoint. It tells you what you want it to tell you. If you only want to gear for EH, that takes about < 5 seconds to set up. :)

(My comment about the 4-5 Stamina was in regard to /facepalming at the number of EH-stacking Warriors who will go so far as to ignore +12 Stamina socket bonuses just for matching gem color in a Helm, and lose 10 Dodge Rating over 3-4 Stamina...which I find quite silly.

I do actually have a specific argument for gemming generalistically though... Often people have been saying 'gear for the fight'--which is a very accurate thing to say. But while we swap gear, trinkets, weapons, shield, etc. quite often, I can't say the majority (or any!) of us swap 2000g worth of gems between every fight based on if there is an advantage to EH, Avoidance, or Survival time. Therefore I see it as pretty logical to stick with the gemmings which increase my overall survival time the most, not specifically using the example of one fight.

It's easy enough to bias our gear in more direct ways--such as swapping trinkets, which is worth upwards of +- 5k health or so nowadays--without fixating the gems to be only good at one thing.

Again... each to their own on this! ;) IMO you'll still be better off using Rawr regardless of how you evaluate items than trying to do it manually by hand or on your head!)

Aggathon
01-02-2010, 11:46 AM
The thing is though, if we want avoidance over EHP for a fight, at least this is what I do, I have entirely different pieces of gear that I'll swap in, not just trinkets. I treat it kind of like anub's adds. So really it's about what you would gem your secondary pieces for if you are doing avoidance sets. MOST fights warrant EHP over avoidance, and even those that have avoidance (at least so far) you don't need completely different sets of gear for, switching just trinkets is enough, and some people don't even do that. Thus is the curse of normal modes. I'll get back to you if the demands of hardmodes are that much more stringent.

Kojiyama
01-02-2010, 01:28 PM
The thing is though, if we want avoidance over EHP for a fight, at least this is what I do, I have entirely different pieces of gear that I'll swap in, not just trinkets. I treat it kind of like anub's adds. So really it's about what you would gem your secondary pieces for if you are doing avoidance sets. MOST fights warrant EHP over avoidance, and even those that have avoidance (at least so far) you don't need completely different sets of gear for, switching just trinkets is enough, and some people don't even do that. Thus is the curse of normal modes. I'll get back to you if the demands of hardmodes are that much more stringent.

Well, a lot of items are best or at least viable for both avoidance/survival time and EH, so I don't really find it to be quite that straightforward.

I'm actually not so sure about the most fights thing... there's been nothing in ICC so far that is particularly burst heavy or requires more HP than was the norm in TotGC--in fact, most of the fights so far have lower HP requirements than TotGC especially considering all the bonus armor items available lowering the average hit size we take by a substantial amount.

My point is simply that as we never really know what fights we're using gems for (generally speaking) provided there is a net gain in survival, not only are you making your gear as a whole a bit more flexible but you are also increasing your itemization budget by not passing up socket bonuses when they make sense. (And, to be fair, most of them do nowadays--as the majority are Stamina.)

For trinkets, one generally trades of Stamina vs. Dodge/Def at a rate of 3:2... yet for Gems, one trades at a rate of 0.9:1 (or 1.8:2) even in the case of losing 9 Stamina. So if you are seeking extra Stamina, gems are very inefficient compared to swapping gear due to the potential loss of the bonus.

But of course, a lot of it depends on your existing gear and situation. At the end of the day, gems rarely make or break anyhow. There are no shortage of threads on this already, after all! ;)

Regardless of your viewpoint on this Rawr can display either one with only some minor tweaks to the settings. As I said, it's pretty agnostic to this type of thing.

Badga
01-02-2010, 04:25 PM
I know and understand rawr fairly well and know about the various features of it, I am still going to have to respectfully disagree.

Every guild has a different way of doing fights and becuase you do a fight such and such way it may require gearing this way or because you bring maybe 1 less healer you need to do something this way or w/e, rawr doesn't account for the unforseen variables that often happen in a specific fight.

As you stated before it will do what you tell it to do, and the only thing I really use it for is for viewing what my stats will be in if i change up this gem here or this enchant there...

There is a lot more to understand about knowing how to gear/gem is what I am trying to make clear.

I would use it as a number informative tool... that is about it.

Kojiyama
01-02-2010, 06:48 PM
Well, I would also say that players don't account for many variables as well. Even players that make good decisions don't always understand why they make them, or even make consistant decisions when they are aiming for a specific goal.

That's why spreadsheets and tools are made. Tanks aren't better than other players, and DPS classes almost always understand their class and fights very well--yet almost all of them still check to see what spreadsheets, Simulationcraft, or whatever tells them in order to confirm or build data to support (or contradict) their suppositions.

IMO, too often tanks operate in a way other players don't--often blindly choosing their gear based on what other people do without fully understanding the impact of their choices.

A good example of this is gearing for Anub add tanking. Sure, one could do it manually but plugging in the variables to Rawr takes about 30 seconds and then a 2-3 minute pass of the Optimizer will build a Block set out of what you have available far more accurately than most players would ever be able to do by hand--or, at the very least, much quicker. Trying to figure out the trade-offs, juggle caps, and specifically meet the requirements of that fight is not really easy to do in one's head--at least not optimally--yet tools like Rawr can help a player do so with good effect.

At the end of the day, it provides information in a way most people don't think about. If you just want to look at EH, because that's the most important thing to you, it will show that clearly and do all the leg-work of trying to discover when an Armor trinket beats a Stamina trinket or which pieces beat other pieces. It sure beats plugging random numbers into calculators for every item one comes across!

However, in terms of gearing for survival the math behind it is often misunderstood or not understood at all--which is another reason tools are good. They will allow you to explore that side of thing if you want (even if you don't gear based on it) without having to do the ridiculous amounts of math it would take to accurately see the results of it. Even for a spreadsheet/math type of guy like myself, if I had to do it by hand I would never bother.

I believe there is a lot more to gearing/gemming, as you say--but never knowing the numbers or results isn't going to help the average tank understand them either. To me, it's good to know that trinkets are at a 3:2 ratio while gems are often at 1.8:2 or less. It helps me make informed decisions as to what I want to do with my gear, when otherwise I would just be guessing.

An EH-based example is that of something like the Unidentifiable Organ (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50341). Trying to factor out the average EH of that trinket given its specific mechanics is not only very complex, but very gear, fight, and environment-dependant. Sure, someone could make a random guess at the average stacks and the uptime, then try to factor that in with the Armor. Or, one could just look at a tool like Rawr which fairly accurately models the trinket to see more or less exactly how it stacks up to the EH of other items for a given set of parameters.

Beyond that, there's more to Rawr (and gearing) than EH or even survival. Threat is often a question that comes up often--especially in regard to TPS-oriented items, talents, gemming, or glyphing. There are plenty of bad assumptions about those elements as well that tools can help out considerably with--for instance, there was a thread just yesterday asking as to if Deep Wounds was better than Cruelty per point--which is something that becomes very obvious in a tool like Rawr. Understanding the benefits of each raid buffs, talent, or debuff are additional things that can be done to help a player's understanding of how the game works and how external factors--not just simple things like gem choices--affect their tanking.

Aberen
01-03-2010, 04:55 PM
I like this guide, did anyone mention that you can easily use a hit trinket if you need to? Probably cheaper and easier than glyphing.

Bihn
01-03-2010, 05:55 PM
I like this guide, did anyone mention that you can easily use a hit trinket if you need to? Probably cheaper and easier than glyphing.

Well, the Glyph increases taunt's chance to hit by 8%. That's much more than any hit trinket could offer.

Proletaria
01-03-2010, 08:40 PM
I like this guide, did anyone mention that you can easily use a hit trinket if you need to? Probably cheaper and easier than glyphing.

Would you put on a hit trinket for Algalon? That is one of the encounters where a taunt landing is vital, and one of a few in that catergory that I wouldn't feel too good about using a non-tank-stats trinket for. Loosing a few thousand hp instead of a single glyph slot sounds a little silly.

Aggathon
01-03-2010, 08:52 PM
Would you put on a hit trinket for Algalon? That is one of the encounters where a taunt landing is vital, and one of a few in that catergory that I wouldn't feel too good about using a non-tank-stats trinket for. Loosing a few thousand hp instead of a single glyph slot sounds a little silly.

I have to agree, I would never equip a hit trinket.

drae
01-05-2010, 06:52 AM
I use a hit trinket in my retarded single target tanking DPS set; but only because it also has ArP.

And I mean the set I never use except for Epeen contests, where 12k tps and 3k+ dps is fun. (What I like to believe I'm a paladin sometimes!)

Kojiyama
01-05-2010, 07:23 AM
I use a hit trinket in my retarded single target tanking DPS set; but only because it also has ArP.

And I mean the set I never use except for Epeen contests, where 12k tps and 3k+ dps is fun. (What I like to believe I'm a paladin sometimes!)

AFAIK, the on-hit ArP trinkets (such as the Needle-Encrusted Scorpion) will generally yield a bit better DPS than Hit trinkets, but I presume you're talking about Grim Toll--which is quite good, overall, for DPS increases.

Aggathon
01-05-2010, 08:51 AM
I added a footnote [3] with more taunt information.

drae
01-06-2010, 06:52 AM
AFAIK, the on-hit ArP trinkets (such as the Needle-Encrusted Scorpion) will generally yield a bit better DPS than Hit trinkets, but I presume you're talking about Grim Toll--which is quite good, overall, for DPS increases.

I am talking about the grim toll. I've been using it for a year in that set.. even tho I have a NES now, without the hit on some trinket I can't cap that stat... and since GT proc's ArP... best of both worlds!

The goal of the set was Hit Cap, Expertise @ 12%+, and SBV contribution to SS Capped just to see what kinda numbers I could reach.

krc
01-20-2010, 06:43 PM
I would give a shout out to the new EJ spread sheet Tanking Spreadsheet 3.3 - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t84604-tanking_spreadsheet_3_3_a/) in the comparing gear section Agg. It is similar to RAWR but has extra features such as you can do boss profiles where it breaks down how important Burst Time, Mitigation, Threat and dps are on them. You can also create a custom boss and put in what ever percentage you choose to put in. Or you can simply put in what ever stat values you choose to put in.

It is also in spread sheet form which I am sure a few people prefer.

Aggathon
01-20-2010, 09:34 PM
So added.

Kahmal
01-21-2010, 12:56 AM
I was told that most bosses dont parry haste anymore, which makes me feel like an idiot for using Stam+Exp gems in red sockets. Following tankspot for tanking during BC and early WotLK (DPS most of the time now) it seems many prefer'd expertise due to its threat and "avoidance" by decreasing parries.

However most heavy hitting bosses such as Gormok and I think Festergut dont even parry haste. I hear Putrecide doesn't either and if he did he swings to damn fast for it to even matter. After that most things in ICC just dont hit as hard anymore regardless so getting gibbed isn't such a big deal. So is the high belief to just go with stam/dodge?

BTW: I believe the minmax DPS spec for Paladins doesn't use Vindication, and I spec Incite as Arms so no Commanding Presence, nor does our Fury Warrior have it. Might be worth mentioning :p

Aggathon
01-21-2010, 09:55 AM
I don't really seem to recall advocating for expertise as far as parry haste goes very much. However it is still a very very solid threat stat. Even if bosses parry haste, like you said, they hit faster now anyways and like saurfang's swing timer is 1.2 or something, so getting a parry haste would be really close to just getting another hit, even then, the amount they hit for (while still higher than ToC) is less than it would have been, so it is easier to survive a parry haste if you are gearing for EHP, like you should be imo.

Prot pallies should have vindication. Feral druids should have imp demo roar.

Why are your dps warriors bad? =P, naw ours only usually run with 3/5 or 4/5, but imo it's not a big enough difference to sack all the other utility you can pick up if you don't need it, which I think I do mention iirc.

Furthermore, while there is expertise to be found, you do have to more carefully plan your gear in ICC than you had to in ToC as far as expertise goes. Expertise was out da butt in ToC, but really, as long as you have 26 expertise, you shouldn't really gem for it.

Aggathon
01-29-2010, 10:58 AM
Updated spec and footnote 2 for 3.3.2 updates. Let me know if I missed anything and still say revenge is better than devastate somewhere =P.

mistersix
01-29-2010, 04:08 PM
The link still shows speccing into imp revenge even though the paragraph suggests against it.

Aggathon
01-30-2010, 06:08 AM
The link still shows speccing into imp revenge even though the paragraph suggests against it.

Good catch, hopefully it works now. The URL was right, but it was still tied to the old link when you clicked on it, it was kinda weird.

mistersix
01-30-2010, 11:17 AM
Very welcome. Looks good. Great work on the guide if I haven't said so before. :)

Jayde and WarTotem have been digging into the burst threat numbers around glyphed mocking blow. It might be worth mentioning their threads in the glyph section of the guide.

GronkerLonker
02-01-2010, 04:38 AM
Great guide, very comprehensive and one of the few up to date guides out there as far as I can tell.

A small addition: Vene posted on Tankingtips (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/07/03/buffing-shield-wall-the-whole-the-parts/) that you should either glyph and spec for Shield Wall or do neither one.
Maybe valid to point out link between the glyph and Imp. Disciplines more clearly.

Aggathon
02-01-2010, 01:35 PM
Great guide, very comprehensive and one of the few up to date guides out there as far as I can tell.

A small addition: Vene posted on Tankingtips (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/07/03/buffing-shield-wall-the-whole-the-parts/) that you should either glyph and spec for Shield Wall or do neither one.
Maybe valid to point out link between the glyph and Imp. Disciplines more clearly.


I think that the dropping of revenge all together in 3.3.2 makes the spec a lot more fluid now. No matter how you slice it you are going to have 2 points floating. The only way to drop imp disciplines is if you put those 2 points into puncture and/or shield spec too, which I think is superfluous. I think there is no reason to not spec for imp disciplines any more, but that there may be some fights where glyph of shield wall isn't optimal (I don't actually know what fight that might be off the top of my head though). Point is, imo it's about whether or not you're going to use the glyph on a fight by fight basis, I personally think that post 3.3.2 you should probably be specing it anyways.

mistersix
02-01-2010, 03:44 PM
Thus far no comments about conc blow or devastate changes in the latest patch notes. Our talk of alt builds because of it may be too soon.

Aggathon
02-01-2010, 06:32 PM
Thus far no comments about conc blow or devastate changes in the latest patch notes. Our talk of alt builds because of it may be too soon.

Ya... looks like they changed the patch notes, damnit, now I'm gonna have to go through and re-write that.

Aggathon
02-01-2010, 08:16 PM
Okay I reverted the guide since the devastate changes didn't make the final cut to 3.3.2 it seems.

However when blizzard makes a blue post tomorrow saying they made the change but just forgot to put it in the patch notes, I may kill someone, just sayin'.

GronkerLonker
02-02-2010, 04:14 AM
Oehm... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748761862&sid=1&pageNo=1#1

Warriors

Talents

Protection

Concussion Blow: The damage done by this ability has been reduced by 50%, but its threat generation will remain approximately the same.
Devastate: This ability now deals 120% of weapon damage, up from 100% of weapon damage.
Shield Slam: The damage scaling from block value for this ability now diminishes faster and diminishes starting at a lower block value. The difference should be negligible for players in high-end tanking armor. In addition, the threat caused by Shield Slam has been increased by 30%.
Warbringer: This talent no longer allows Charge and Intercept to break roots or snares. Intervene remains unaffected.

And mmo-champion updated them again too...

/me dodges to not get killed

Aggathon
02-02-2010, 07:15 AM
God f***ing damnit... I knew I should have waited.

veneretio
02-02-2010, 11:45 AM
I think that the dropping of revenge all together in 3.3.2 makes the spec a lot more fluid now. No matter how you slice it you are going to have 2 points floating. The only way to drop imp disciplines is if you put those 2 points into puncture and/or shield spec too, which I think is superfluous.
If you don't have Glyph of Shield Wall (aka a threat spec) then Shield Spec is definitely worth it over Improved Disciplines. 2 more points in Shield Spec offers some extra rage which is never a bad thing and additional chance to block which is also never a bad thing whereas Improved Disciples without Glyph of Shield Wall accomplishes almost nothing. (You're still using Shield Wall 1 time/fight and in rare cases twice) Sure, Shield Spec isn't the most exciting talent, but there's no reason to just ignore a survival increase even if it's a threat spec.

You can also put points in Improved Spell Reflect for the spell miss chance or in Improved Bloodrage. Neither are exciting talents, but both are better than "almost nothing".

mistersix
02-02-2010, 12:09 PM
God f***ing damnit... I knew I should have waited.

Sorry, Agg. :(

Aggathon
02-02-2010, 02:05 PM
If you don't have Glyph of Shield Wall (aka a threat spec) then Shield Spec is definitely worth it over Improved Disciplines. 2 more points in Shield Spec offers some extra rage which is never a bad thing and additional chance to block which is also never a bad thing whereas Improved Disciples without Glyph of Shield Wall accomplishes almost nothing. (You're still using Shield Wall 1 time/fight and in rare cases twice) Sure, Shield Spec isn't the most exciting talent, but there's no reason to just ignore a survival increase even if it's a threat spec.

You can also put points in Improved Spell Reflect for the spell miss chance or in Improved Bloodrage. Neither are exciting talents, but both are better than "almost nothing".

I talked about that in the "Revised" edition of that that I unrevised it when they took the devastate changes out of the patch notes, and now I need to go through and re-write it because they put the changes back in. uugghhhh...

Kojiyama
02-02-2010, 04:34 PM
Even if the buff to Devastate seems a bit semi-buggy atm, it's fair enough to assume it will be solidified based on GC's comment. The one thing to keep in mind is that he did mention if Revenge was dropped from people rotations completely (wasn't it more or less already?) Revenge would get a buff as well--so it may make in comeback in the near future as there is honestly no reason to use it now unless you are seriously, seriously rage-starved.

Aggathon
02-03-2010, 07:42 AM
Even if the buff to Devastate seems a bit semi-buggy atm, it's fair enough to assume it will be solidified based on GC's comment. The one thing to keep in mind is that he did mention if Revenge was dropped from people rotations completely (wasn't it more or less already?) Revenge would get a buff as well--so it may make in comeback in the near future as there is honestly no reason to use it now unless you are seriously, seriously rage-starved.

I did the spec last night and dropped revenge and used puncture. When I glyphed devastate I was doing 11-13k TPS, without glyph of devastate I was doing 8-10k TPS. Revenge really isn't needed post 3.3.2 (as was proved by the math in the other thread). This is running with 23 expertise and 121 hit.

Kazeyonoma
02-03-2010, 11:06 AM
strange, in all of my logs last night, revenge consistently averaged more damage than devastate. I'm still spec'd 2/2 imp revenge, but likewise i have glyphed devastate. Now i'm sure TPS wise devastate was probably putting out more, but i found for a pure dps increase, using revenge was in fact better.

Kojiyama
02-03-2010, 11:15 AM
Devastate has a higher crit rate and thus a slightly higher contribution from Deep Wounds, which makes up a bit of the difference. At the end of the day, they should have very similar damage per execute, with Revenge being much lower in threat due to Devastate's AP-based threat component.

Kazeyonoma
02-03-2010, 11:45 AM
Ah, gotcha, I'm not deep wounds spec'd so that'd probably explain why devastate wasn't hitting as hard for me either.

Nebidimka
02-06-2010, 02:42 AM
G) Glove Enchant:
Options include: 18 stam, 2%threat+10 parry rating, or 240 Armor. I guess if youre having severe threat issues use the threat enchant, otherwise go with 18 stam or 240 armor. 240 armor for almost any level/combination of armor/hps ends up being more EHP than 18 stam, however the calculations are usually pretty close and if you are going to be doing a fight where there is any significant amount of magic damage, then 18 stam is the winner, but for the most part in current content 240 armor is the winner. However, if you are an engineer, then 885 armor to gloves is the best hands down. The 645 armor difference at my current gear levels as of typing this is equivalent to about 62 stam in terms of EHP.
I cant find that 18 stam enchant. Does it even exist? Same with armor.

Kojiyama
02-06-2010, 03:12 AM
They are leatherworking patches.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38376
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34207

Aggathon
02-13-2010, 11:26 AM
Okay, I finally got around to finishing the update... again... if I missed something let me know. This will probably be my final update to the guide since I am pretty much quitting WoW, but hopefully these will be the final warrior changes until cataclysm comes out, and that will require a whole new guide anyways.

Thanks to all the people who have helped make this guide a possibility, and thanks for all the supporters and positive feedback, I really hope this guide helps you and your guilds progress at a faster pace.

Aggathon
02-16-2010, 02:49 PM
@ the Admins: should this be moved to the guides forum?

Reev
02-16-2010, 03:10 PM
Okay, I finally got around to finishing the update... again... if I missed something let me know. This will probably be my final update to the guide since I am pretty much quitting WoW, but hopefully these will be the final warrior changes until cataclysm comes out, and that will require a whole new guide anyways.

Thanks to all the people who have helped make this guide a possibility, and thanks for all the supporters and positive feedback, I really hope this guide helps you and your guilds progress at a faster pace.

Something happen, Agg, or is it just time? Answer in a PM if you want.

Kazeyonoma
02-16-2010, 03:58 PM
Awww, quitting on us Agg? ;( why!

As for moving it to the Guide section... hrm....

squats
02-17-2010, 07:17 AM
Something happen, Agg, or is it just time? Answer in a PM if you want.
its okay we got someone better. HA!

JK.

Aggathon
02-17-2010, 11:18 AM
As for quitting... it's time. I need to focus on real life at the moment, I need to get out and exercise more, and focus more on studying, and just having a good time in general. This is going to be the last semester of college I have with my real good engineering friends. Some may stick around, and my roommate is trying to get a job in the area so he can still live in Lawrence and might goto grad school here, but for the most part I just need to get out and do things rather than telling my friends I have to go play a video game instead of hanging out with them. That and I had a co-op last semester and didn't have any tests or homework and got really spoiled, so getting back into that routine has been kinda hard =P.

mistersix
02-17-2010, 05:05 PM
Enjoy the real world, Agg.

Kers
02-24-2010, 12:46 AM
Cool, I learned something from this guide. Awesome thread.

Tanthalas
02-24-2010, 07:34 AM
I agree to pretty much everything here except for the hit stat. TRUE expertise is definitely our priority, but once that is capped, missing with taunt means bad things, you can argue that you can throw vigilance on the MT or OT and have taunt refreshed, but when someone dies in the second or two because your vigilance target hasn't been hit yet, it defeats the point. Missing with abilities means 0 rage and 0 threat and a wasted global, meaning bad things. I would never gem for it but I feel it's good to keep it around 3-5% through personal gear, 2% and below seems a poor choice to me. Imagine AoE tanking where your thunderclaps and shockwaves miss half the mobs, better ask for those tricks and md's or have a reliable OT :p. And single target wise you better have vigilance in your spec, because imagine having a guild that has dps well over 10-11k+, it would be pretty stressful if you're missing continuously in your rotation meaning wasted globals, then imagine you have a few rogues that want to maximize dps, so they are tricksing other people for the dmg increase, like good rogues should be able to do and get away with, without having those players catch up to the MT's threat. But I guess at the end of the day, it can just be situational or what the player is used to when tanking. And Like I said before, this guide was very helpful and informative, well thought out, I just think hit needs to be more appreciated if you're wanting to tank effectively.

krc
02-24-2010, 09:54 AM
I agree to pretty much everything here except for the hit stat. TRUE expertise is definitely our priority, but once that is capped, missing with taunt means bad things, you can argue that you can throw vigilance on the MT or OT and have taunt refreshed, but when someone dies in the second or two because your vigilance target hasn't been hit yet, it defeats the point. Missing with abilities means 0 rage and 0 threat and a wasted global, meaning bad things. I would never gem for it but I feel it's good to keep it around 3-5% through personal gear, 2% and below seems a poor choice to me. Imagine AoE tanking where your thunderclaps and shockwaves miss half the mobs, better ask for those tricks and md's or have a reliable OT :p. And single target wise you better have vigilance in your spec, because imagine having a guild that has dps well over 10-11k+, it would be pretty stressful if you're missing continuously in your rotation meaning wasted globals, then imagine you have a few rogues that want to maximize dps, so they are tricksing other people for the dmg increase, like good rogues should be able to do and get away with, without having those players catch up to the MT's threat. But I guess at the end of the day, it can just be situational or what the player is used to when tanking. And Like I said before, this guide was very helpful and informative, well thought out, I just think hit needs to be more appreciated if you're wanting to tank effectively.

Again what people are saying in this thread in that situation you can always use the Glyph of Taunt and not need to sacrifice tons of survival to hit.

Kahmal
02-24-2010, 11:25 AM
Devastate has a higher crit rate and thus a slightly higher contribution from Deep Wounds, which makes up a bit of the difference. At the end of the day, they should have very similar damage per execute, with Revenge being much lower in threat due to Devastate's AP-based threat component.

Higher crit rate?
Explain plz?

mistersix
02-24-2010, 12:25 PM
Sword and Board buffs devastate crit. Revenge doesn't have much to modify it's crit chance.

Aggathon
02-24-2010, 02:20 PM
I agree to pretty much everything here except for the hit stat. TRUE expertise is definitely our priority, but once that is capped, missing with taunt means bad things, you can argue that you can throw vigilance on the MT or OT and have taunt refreshed, but when someone dies in the second or two because your vigilance target hasn't been hit yet, it defeats the point. Missing with abilities means 0 rage and 0 threat and a wasted global, meaning bad things. I would never gem for it but I feel it's good to keep it around 3-5% through personal gear, 2% and below seems a poor choice to me.


The highest hit rating I've had in the last 6th months is 121. I did all of ToGC with about 66 hit. In ICC I had absolutely zero threat problems, and glyph of taunt was more than sufficient on fights I needed to taunt, I think I missed maybe once, then just used the vigilance trick and mocking blow and I was fine.


Imagine AoE tanking where your thunderclaps and shockwaves miss half the mobs, better ask for those tricks and md's or have a reliable OT :p.I've never had any problems AoE tanking with hit values that low, but yes we had an extremely reliable paladin tank as well.


And single target wise you better have vigilance in your spec, because imagine having a guild that has dps well over 10-11k+, it would be pretty stressful if you're missing continuously in your rotation meaning wasted globals, then imagine you have a few rogues that want to maximize dps, so they are tricksing other people for the dmg increase, like good rogues should be able to do and get away with, without having those players catch up to the MT's threat.
A few things, first if rogues are tricksing eachother then it nets out to zero extra threat from them, other than the extra damage they do, that is a non issue. We've even had rogues tricks non-rogues for DPS increases and still had no problems. Secondly, I was in a guild that had amazing dps, routinely 10-11k, sometimes higher (our most notable accomplishment imo was US 8th putricide. We were ranked about US 30 at the time I quit raiding), I had next to zero threat issues. Secondly, if you read the spec section I do include vigilance. It is useful not only to quell overactive DPS threat, but in any other ways too.



But I guess at the end of the day, it can just be situational or what the player is used to when tanking. And Like I said before, this guide was very helpful and informative, well thought out, I just think hit needs to be more appreciated if you're wanting to tank effectively.Out of curiosity did you read my foot note number 3 that further explains the hit rating breakdown?

I stand by my statements that hit is almost completely inconsequential. Gear for survival. As long as you are doing enough threat a "wasted GCD" is completely unimportant. Unlike DPS where they have to constantly squeeze out every last ounce of DPS, Threat is more along the lines of "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you," meaning as long as I am doing more threat than the top DPS (which with these values and the warrior's current threat situation I was averaging about 11k TPS) then there's really no need to get more threat, especially at the sacrifice of survivability.

Tanthalas
02-24-2010, 05:31 PM
The highest hit rating I've had in the last 6th months is 121. I did all of ToGC with about 66 hit. In ICC I had absolutely zero threat problems, and glyph of taunt was more than sufficient on fights I needed to taunt, I think I missed maybe once, then just used the vigilance trick and mocking blow and I was fine.

Yeah, I completely agree with you for ToGC, #1, it has no trash, unless you count the adds on Anub'Arak which I've tanked all 4 of them with my avoidance set only having about 65 hit. Of course I was the additional cleave spec etc etc, and had Md's and trick's fed into me :). But for ToGC, since there is no trash, there wasn't much point in having hit, just had to glyph for taunt if you were an OT.


I've never had any problems AoE tanking with hit values that low, but yes we had an extremely reliable paladin tank as well.

^ I believe it.


A few things, first if rogues are tricksing eachother then it nets out to zero extra threat from them, other than the extra damage they do, that is a non issue. We've even had rogues tricks non-rogues for DPS increases and still had no problems. Secondly, I was in a guild that had amazing dps, routinely 10-11k, sometimes higher (our most notable accomplishment imo was US 8th putricide. We were ranked about US 30 at the time I quit raiding), I had next to zero threat issues. Secondly, if you read the spec section I do include vigilance. It is useful not only to quell overactive DPS threat, but in any other ways too.

I meant when rogues tricks other classes, not other rogues, which yes, if they fed each other the tricks, they would definitely become a net of 0 extra threat. Basically if rogues tricksed the top dps, in which case Salv or other threat drops could be applied so it really isn't an issue, I'm just throwing out possible in-game problems that guilds could have because of this.


Out of curiosity did you read my foot note number 3 that further explains the hit rating breakdown?

I'm still looking for it, I actually saw a link in one of the earlier pages to this thread that led to another forum that broke down hit, I'm not sure if that is what you were referring to, but it basically broke down hit and it said to never gem or enchant for hit, of which i still completely agree.


I stand by my statements that hit is almost completely inconsequential. Gear for survival. As long as you are doing enough threat a "wasted GCD" is completely unimportant. Unlike DPS where they have to constantly squeeze out every last ounce of DPS, Threat is more along the lines of "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you," meaning as long as I am doing more threat than the top DPS (which with these values and the warrior's current threat situation I was averaging about 11k TPS) then there's really no need to get more threat, especially at the sacrifice of survivability.

^ When you put it that way I feel like I made the wrong point. Yes, you're absolutely correct gear for survivability, gem, glyph and also enchant for survivability, I was just saying don't avoid hit if the gear comes with it, because I assume other OT warriors like myself read this forum and want to know how much hit they should be rocking and it's worth, to be able to perform any odd jobs they may have in these new encounters. It'll help out with trash or fights like Dreamwalker, where in later on in heroic, you probably won't want to miss picking up the continuously increasing horde of adds.

Aggathon
02-24-2010, 10:34 PM
Sure for some fights some hit is needed, but using only a few pieces of gear with it that are in my EHP set anyways, if I have hit food and glyph of taunt and an spriest or boomkin, then my taunt will never miss (basically 118 hit rating needed). Between mocking blow, shield slam, and taunt tricks, and any other ability, I just can't see add pick up being a problem. No you shouldn't avoid hit, but you also should not prioritize it.

I would also say that taunt was extremely important in ToGC. Add pickup on jaraxxus, picking up each boss, the taunt rotation on gormok, the taunt rotation for the worms (depending on what strat you used). Picking up adds on anub'arak, normal FC it was pretty important for add management. Taunt is important, but the glyph of taunt pretty much makes up for anything you don't have and is all that is really necessary for all of the scenarios out there.

So when the question comes up by any OT or MT "how much taunt should I have" then my response is the same as always: it doesn't matter unless you NEED to taunt, in which case, look at the table and find the value that works in your situation.

Edit: the footnote is also just at the very bottom of the original post.

Kojiyama
02-25-2010, 04:00 AM
One thing I would mention to people: don't be afraid to dynamically adjust your Vigilance target mid-fight. Click-bind it to Grid or something. :)

There is nothing stopping you from having Vigilance on a 12k DPS Mage for most of the fight, but swapping it to the MT 1-2s before you need to taunt to make sure you get 'free' refreshes if your Taunt misses, then swapping it back to the Mage/Fury Warrior/whatever once the other tank goes back to tanking/doing proper TPSing. (Having Vigilance on an OT is generally not a bad use of Vigilance either, so you don't always have to swap it back to a DPS as soon as you start tanking--the OT will be able to pump out decent TPS to feed you.)

e.g. on Festergut I usually put it on the highest TPS DPSer at the start of the fight as the 2nd tank (just to reduce their TPS) then swap it to the MT at 8 stacks to give me an assured taunt window and then leave it on the MT to make sure his threat transition goes smoothly--since he'll be doing quite high DPS even if he drops RF with 9 stacks. Once I have 9 stacks, I swap it to someone doing next to no TPS just for ease and to make sure I don't get any aggro I don't want (I usually pick a Disc Priest.)

drae
02-25-2010, 05:15 AM
Hit rating on trash is usually a moot point, trash is usually lvl 82, which means they have significantly less chance to miss then a boss. Especially spell miss.

Personally I go even further then simply not prioritizing it, I avoid it; as it's wasted itemization imo.

mistersix
02-25-2010, 08:42 AM
One thing I would mention to people: don't be afraid to dynamically adjust your Vigilance target mid-fight. Click-bind it to Grid or something. :)

There is nothing stopping you from having Vigilance on a 12k DPS Mage for most of the fight, but swapping it to the MT 1-2s before you need to taunt to make sure you get 'free' refreshes if your Taunt misses, then swapping it back to the Mage/Fury Warrior/whatever once the other tank goes back to tanking/doing proper TPSing. (Having Vigilance on an OT is generally not a bad use of Vigilance either, so you don't always have to swap it back to a DPS as soon as you start tanking--the OT will be able to pump out decent TPS to feed you.)

e.g. on Festergut I usually put it on the highest TPS DPSer at the start of the fight as the 2nd tank (just to reduce their TPS) then swap it to the MT at 8 stacks to give me an assured taunt window and then leave it on the MT to make sure his threat transition goes smoothly--since he'll be doing quite high DPS even if he drops RF with 9 stacks. Once I have 9 stacks, I swap it to someone doing next to no TPS just for ease and to make sure I don't get any aggro I don't want (I usually pick a Disc Priest.)

Same. Excellent reminder. In some cases, in 10mans for example, the dynamic vig adjusting can also provide some needed damage reduction as well.

Aggathon
02-25-2010, 08:55 AM
Same. Excellent reminder. In some cases, in 10mans for example, the dynamic vig adjusting can also provide some needed damage reduction as well.

True, but remember the damage reducing part doesn't stack with things like blessing of sanctuary.

Maybe a more indepth explanation of the utility of vigilance is something I'll add to my next overhaul of this.

mistersix
02-25-2010, 10:52 AM
Agreed. That's why I highlighted that as a 10man consideration specifically.

Aggathon
02-25-2010, 01:58 PM
Oh... derp, lol.

dgen
02-28-2010, 10:51 AM
@ the Admins: should this be moved to the guides forum?I'd say that section would better suit guides that are 100% correct.

If you're going to argue the point, try EJ, which (no offense to the TS admins) contains opinions and proof, posted by a lot more experienced tanks - or perhaps Xav will stumble upon this post and offer his assistance.

krc
02-28-2010, 11:05 AM
I'd say that section would better suit guides that are 100% correct.

If you're going to argue the point, try EJ, which (no offense to the TS admins) contains opinions and proof, posted by a lot more experienced tanks - or perhaps Xav will stumble upon this post and offer his assistance.


Well I wouldn't necessarily say that Agg isn't an experienced tank since his guild has gotten a few top 10 world wide kills and I can't really find any errors in the post. Maybe you could offer suggestions to further improved the guide if there are any errors or mistakes.

Kojiyama
02-28-2010, 11:40 AM
I'd say that section would better suit guides that are 100% correct.

If you're going to argue the point, try EJ, which (no offense to the TS admins) contains opinions and proof, posted by a lot more experienced tanks - or perhaps Xav will stumble upon this post and offer his assistance.


Although I don't agree with Agg all the time, I would point out that basically all the people who post definitive stuff about tanking on EJ also post here. Tankspot is really the home to a lot more theorycraft and solid stuff about tanking than EJ--which main strengths are its DPS theorycrafting for certain class communities.

mistersix
02-28-2010, 12:36 PM
Also EJ's strength isn't necessarily in the direct experience of it's community either. It's in the number crunching. A lot of the best and brightest posters at EJ aren't 1% progressed raiders.

dgen
02-28-2010, 02:14 PM
Well I wouldn't necessarily say that Agg isn't an experienced tank since his guild has gotten a few top 10 world wide kills and I can't really find any errors in the post. Maybe you could offer suggestions to further improved the guide if there are any errors or mistakes.Rofl, that's like saying Kungen's guild has gotten a few top 10 world wide kills, nobody cares, the idiot enchants 15BR to Shield - Kungen's knowledge and experience of his class isn't the reason why Ensidia are so successful (not that they have been as of late, hah), it's the effort and cooperation of the guild as a whole that does it.

I have no doubt that Agg is an exceptional Warrior tank, but I've noticed a few things that aren't necessarily 'correct' in this thread;



* Hit Rating stat weighs.
* Exp/Stam gemming recommendations.
* Cookie cutter spec recommendations.



I might one day spend some time writing my own guide, but until then, I'll do my best to comment on other ones without sounding like too much of a jerk. (:

Elitist Jerks;



EJ isn't just famous for it's number crunching, it's more the fact that they're elitist jerks - they spend the vast majority of their time studying their class, and for a while, their in-game profession was a clear indication of that.

EJ is the theorycrafting home to many famous names, and it was the first theorycraft forum for them to frequent I'm fairly sure - Xav, Quigon/Marauder, Landsoul, Rustyboy, Satrina and Liar, to name a few, have all been huge contributors to the tanking community of WoW, and their threads have MADE tanks who they are today.

I realize a few, if not all of these people post here on Tank Spot, but that wasn't my point - my point is that people will read this thread wanting specifics, confirmation, help and recommendations - and they won't get that a lot of the time, cause it's based on one persons experiences, thus far(unless I missed the part where you made additions based on peoples corrections).

krc
02-28-2010, 02:43 PM
* Hit Rating stat weighs.
* Exp/Stam gemming recommendations.
* Cookie cutter spec recommendations.



I might one day spend some time writing my own guide, but until then, I'll do my best to comment on other ones without sounding like too much of a jerk. (:

Elitist Jerks;





I agree with you that agility and stamina gems are generally better than expertise stam when going for a socket bonus. However I disagree with you about the hit and spec part. I am assuming you think hit should be valued more since it is generally not mentioned a whole lot in the guide but Xav has only 95 hit and glyphs for Taunt like Agg is saying. Xav's spec is almost the same thing as that in the guide, his offspec is a Piercing Howl kiting spec which I think for the most part people looking for a guide aren't going to need or know how to use.

dgen
02-28-2010, 03:48 PM
I agree with you that agility and stamina gems are generally better than expertise stam when going for a socket bonus.Dodge/Stamina .. Agility/Stamina, either would be better - it's dumb how people think Expertise can be used "as an avoidance stat" as well as a threat stat, when half the bosses in ICC don't parry haste anyway, and those that do hit like pansies anyway.


However I disagree with you about the hit and spec part. I am assuming you think hit should be valued more since it is generally not mentioned a whole lot in the guide but Xav has only 95 hit and glyphs for Taunt like Agg is saying.I'm saying you don't need hit at all and I realize Xav has little to no hit; Xav isn't retarded. :)


Xav's spec is almost the same thing as that in the guide, his offspec is a Piercing Howl kiting spec which I think for the most part people looking for a guide aren't going to need or know how to use.Xav's spec has 5/5 Shield Specialization, cause it provides more mitigation, which is optimal; so is the fact that he doesn't use FR, cause there are much more valuable talents.

Hope this cleared the air.

Kojiyama
02-28-2010, 05:03 PM
Expertise gemmings are sometimes used/recommended in the cases of TPS issues, specifically when below the Expertise soft-crap. Pre soft-capped Expertise is the best threat stat for Warriors by leaps and bounds and, as such, is not a bad option when experiencing TPS issues.

Anyway, Xav is a good guy and probably a great tank (can't say I've raided with him!)--but, like every other tank, makes decisions for specific reasons. Copying gear/specs/stats from one person or another rarely makes sense. Xav changes his gear, enchants, gems, etc. a lot and his spec fairly often. Guides like these are to help people understand the rationale behind gearing and how best to make informed decisions, not to tell them what to do.

For a guide, Agg's is pretty good. I would recommend people to read it, since there's a fair bit to learn there. To dismiss it because Xav didn't write it or because it's not on EJ is missing the point.

krc
02-28-2010, 05:44 PM
I agree with Koij, what you are saying Dgen is spot on we just haven't been on the same page. The thing about a guide is that most likely people reading it instead of thinking for them selfs/spreadsheet/rawr/etc... generally aren't going to go down the excact detail and Agg's guide like Koji said shows you how to make rational decisions which is much more important for a new player who are the ones generally reading a guide than the exact detail.

dgen
02-28-2010, 06:11 PM
Expertise gemmings are sometimes used/recommended in the cases of TPS issues, specifically when below the Expertise soft-crap. Pre soft-capped Expertise is the best threat stat for Warriors by leaps and bounds and, as such, is not a bad option when experiencing TPS issues.A good tank wouldn't gem for it.


Anyway, Xav is a good guy and probably a great tank (can't say I've raided with him!)--but, like every other tank, makes decisions for specific reasons.It's obvious that he's a great tank, by the choices he makes with his gear. I'll admit, for a while I copied what he did with his gear, back in Ulduar days, when I began playing my Protection Warrior again, but looking at his choices, my choices, and a few others choices; there's only one 'right' way to gear, enchant and gem - it's not like I ponder upon why he does this & that.


Copying gear/specs/stats from one person or another rarely makes sense.Depending on the person you're copying, it can make sense 100% of the time, I mean, name one thing wrong with Xav's character - you can do the same with mine; http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dreadmaul&cn=Zhail.

There's plenty of ways to 'get the job done', but only one way to get the job done, properly, with all the right gear, spec, enchants and gems.


Xav changes his gear, enchants, gems, etc. a lot and his spec fairly often.I'd like to see his comment on this, as I'm fairly sure the only things he's changed as of late are hybrid Dodge/Stamina gems to straight Stamina, and Glyph of Blocking to Glyph of Last Stand, as the use of Last Stand 1 minute earlier is much more required than the small mitigation boost which Glyph of Blocking provides, seeing as ICC 25 HM is actually hard, in comparison to previous content / dungeon difficulties.

I think he changed his weapon enchant too, though I'm not too sure, I'd imagine he'd only recently have enchanted his weapon with Blood Draining, for the EHP boost, as Mongoose uptime is horrible during ICC, and cause of health fluctuation during the hardmode encounters that Premonition are currently raiding. (Just a guess).


Guides like these are to help people understand the rationale behind gearing and how best to make informed decisions, not to tell them what to do.

For a guide, Agg's is pretty good. I would recommend people to read it, since there's a fair bit to learn there. To dismiss it because Xav didn't write it or because it's not on EJ is missing the point.Yeah, maybe I should stick to Elitist Jerks, cause you're not seeing the points I'm making; then again, they're that of an elitist jerk, so it doesn't surprise me.


I agree with Koij, what you are saying Dgen is spot on we just haven't been on the same page. The thing about a guide is that most likely people reading it instead of thinking for them selfs/spreadsheet/rawr/etc... generally aren't going to go down the excact detail and Agg's guide like Koji said shows you how to make rational decisions which is much more important for a new player who are the ones generally reading a guide than the exact detail.Yeah, I guess what you've said here is 100% fair, I guess I did partially miss the point - then again, I take theorycrafting very seriously, I'm a huge turbo-nerd. ): Got a life? WTS it?

Gth
02-28-2010, 06:36 PM
Mongoose uptime is horrible during ICC

ICC has an effect on the uptime of mongoose?

dgen
02-28-2010, 06:46 PM
ICC has an effect on the uptime of mongoose?


Marrowgar = Bone Storm.
Deathwhisper = breaks between adds.
Gunship = breaks between adds / jumping.
Saurfang = you're not always tanking.
Rotface = average.
Festergut = average.
Putricide = moving a lot / in Abom.
Princes = average.
BQL = only fight where it's decent, even then, only if you're MTing.
Valithria = adds / downtime.
Sindragosa = fluctuation, EHP > Mongoose.
LK = Wouldn't know.



That's just my views on it. Compared to ToGC where you were basically stationary for every single boss, it's nowhere near as good as it once was.

mistersix
02-28-2010, 07:22 PM
LK has break moments during transitions too. Like bone storm and breaks between LDW's adds are a tad irrelievent since you're not properly tanking during those moments anyway.

Aggathon
02-28-2010, 09:44 PM
I'm confused:
- I say gem expertise if you're having threat problems, and it's generally a good idea to aim for 26, but I say expertise is purely a TPS stat, not an avoidance stat
- I am one of the leading proponents on this site that you should never gear/gem/aim for hit at all, wtf are you trying to say?
- I am one of the few that really prefers the agi/stam gem for red socket bonuses... which you are apparently agreeing with
- I am a huge proponent of blood draining over mongoose... and you apparently are too
- Before 3.3.2 I actually suggested either 3/3 FR or 5/5 Shield Spec, the reasons behind have been discussed ad nausem and it is a personal preference. Yes I agree that adding more mitigation is optimal for survivability, I also agree that survivability is a tank's #1 priority, but through my experience 2/5 shield spec hasn't mattered at ALL except for H-25 Anub in the grand scheme of things and will not result in a guaranteed wipe or loss on any boss fight. Instead I've opted for a more rage efficient spec that has served me very well with zero problems.
- If Xav thinks I'm totally off base, then I have no problem with him coming in and helping, but I've heard through 2nd hand accounts that Xav, in principle, agrees with what I've said in this guide. I haven't talked to him specifically about it or the specific points that you've brought up, just that in general he agrees with the overall philosophy I try to promote on this site (namely that of EHP > RNG)

I really wish that you would bring forth some... you know... evidence other than bashing my guide that I've got nothing except positive feedback from (until now), especially since my guide pretty much agrees with what you're saying.

Aggathon
02-28-2010, 09:53 PM
Sorry double post


I might one day spend some time writing my own guide, but until then, I'll do my best to comment on other ones without sounding like too much of a jerk. (:

Might wanna work on that part, people don't take a liking to getting their threads trashed in such a nonconstructive and ad hominem way.





I realize a few, if not all of these people post here on Tank Spot, but that wasn't my point - my point is that people will read this thread wanting specifics, confirmation, help and recommendations - and they won't get that a lot of the time, cause it's based on one persons experiences, thus far(unless I missed the part where you made additions based on peoples corrections).



I actually have made several additions and corrections based on other people's recommendations. I was considering re-writing the guide the give more in depth explanation for each thing, but I didn't want it to turn into a bigger wall of text than it already was. That is one of the reasons why I have SEVERAL links to other threads on this site and on EJ and on maintankadin that give a more in-depth explanation. That's also why I said that my guide was to be used as a nexus of information, not necessarily a compendium of all tanking knowledge.

Kojiyama
03-01-2010, 03:31 AM
Yeah, maybe I should stick to Elitist Jerks, cause you're not seeing the points I'm making; then again, they're that of an elitist jerk, so it doesn't surprise me.

As a 4 year poster on EJ I can tell you almost as a certainty that if you posted as you have in this thread you would have gotten banhammered by the EJ moderators almost instantaneously.

Your posts aren't adding anything to this discussion/thread at all. I have no doubt that you could contribute, and I'm sure Agg would appreciate some constructive comments rather than what appears to be fairly random and confusing statements.

If you have issues with points specifically in the guide, simply make a post like everyone else saying, "I don't think X is correct because of Y reason," so that Agg can evaluate it. What you think Xav may think about something is irrelevant.

Personally, I think this guide is a very good resource and has been well-maintained by Agg over the last few months. I doubt it would have sticky status otherwise.

Aggathon
03-01-2010, 06:45 AM
Thanks Kojiyama, <3

Kazeyonoma
03-01-2010, 09:55 AM
What's going on here? I heard banhammer and couldn't help but take a peak. Haiguyz

Aggathon
03-01-2010, 10:45 AM
What's going on here? I heard banhammer and couldn't help but take a peak. Haiguyz

Trolls are afoot!

krc
03-01-2010, 01:21 PM
Yeah, I guess what you've said here is 100% fair, I guess I did partially miss the point - then again, I take theorycrafting very seriously, I'm a huge turbo-nerd. ): Got a life? WTS it?




It's not that Koji and Agg are trying to be unprecise, they are some of the biggest theory crafters Tankspot or EJ the thing is that you aren't comprehending the guide in its fullest which leads to negative remarks that agree with the guide. It isn't like Xav is the only tank and every one else is innacurate, Xav is an incredible tank but I am sure there is a hand full of other tanks that know their class as well as he does. Because the guide isn't from EJ you simply flame it and make sarcastic remarks before fully under standing it.

Dragaan
03-12-2010, 01:20 AM
Would you honestly ever use the glyph of Taunt? No. =\

Why as a warrior tank would you ever ask your dps to tclap / demo shout for you? If you cant fit those into your rotation and still produce enough threat, you need to tweak your rotation. You might as well ask the fury warrior to stack sunders for you...

Let the tanks tank, and the dps do damage.

Wow... I know this post is almost 3 months old, but still... Coming from a tank who does heroic content (I armory'd him), this is pretty ignorant. Part of being a successful tank is knowing when to swap glyphs and gear for different fights. I would NEVER risk wiping my raid on an encounter such as putricide25h, sindragosa25h, or any other taunt sensitive fight by not glyphing for taunt. Glyph of taunt is very important for these fights and many others.

Edit: Hehe, the guy who made that post is now using the glyph of taunt :O

Dragaan
03-12-2010, 01:33 AM
Yeah, I completely agree with you for ToGC, #1, it has no trash, unless you count the adds on Anub'Arak which I've tanked all 4 of them with my avoidance set only having about 65 hit. Of course I was the additional cleave spec etc etc, and had Md's and trick's fed into me :). But for ToGC, since there is no trash, there wasn't much point in having hit, just had to glyph for taunt if you were an OT....

If you are serious about tanking/raiding, I would highly suggest you use a mod like itemrack (or the blizz outfitter I guess) and set up a gearset for trash. It really isn't too hard to push a few buttons and equip a set of gear with capped hit and expertise (among other tps stats) to help you with 10+ min of aoe tanking between bosses. My trash set is capped for hit (on 82s), softcapped expertise, ~2200block, dps trinkets, slow weapon, 2p t9, and 2p t10. That gear probably gives me 2k more dps while aoe tanking when compared to my survival gear. I also keep stacks of glyphs on me at all times, and I even swap a cleaving or shockwave glyph in sometimes. If you don't dps too often, you could even keep a second prot spec with a few extra dps talents and aoe tanking glyphs just for trash/heroics/farm content.

Aggathon
03-12-2010, 09:18 AM
If you are serious about tanking/raiding, I would highly suggest you use a mod like itemrack (or the blizz outfitter I guess) and set up a gearset for trash. It really isn't too hard to push a few buttons and equip a set of gear with capped hit and expertise (among other tps stats) to help you with 10+ min of aoe tanking between bosses. My trash set is capped for hit (on 82s), softcapped expertise, ~2200block, dps trinkets, slow weapon, 2p t9, and 2p t10. That gear probably gives me 2k more dps while aoe tanking when compared to my survival gear. I also keep stacks of glyphs on me at all times, and I even swap a cleaving or shockwave glyph in sometimes. If you don't dps too often, you could even keep a second prot spec with a few extra dps talents and aoe tanking glyphs just for trash/heroics/farm content.

^ very solid idea. Don't compromise your MT set for tanking trash. Bosses > Trash.

MellvarTank
03-12-2010, 10:47 AM
Hey Agg, you didn't mention the new craftables yet, is that because you are keeping it "Easy to get craftables"?

Aggathon
03-12-2010, 01:23 PM
Hey Agg, you didn't mention the new craftables yet, is that because you are keeping it "Easy to get craftables"?

Ya... I might add in Pillars of might, Frost badges have been in for so long that they're easier to get now.

Kahmal
03-15-2010, 02:27 AM
Question awhile ago I went 5/5 Shield Spec for Hard Mode Anub attempts. Now done and over with that I haven't touched the spec since. Is it worth it to spec back into Armored to the Teeth? My math is horrible so I dont kno how much AP I'm down, but I finally noticed I no longer had this. I'm just not sure if losing 3% Block in a place like ICC (20% dodge gone QQ) is really worth it since EH is so important in there. Is a bit of extra damage and threat (lol MD and tricks plz!) worth losing some RNG mitigation?

Aggathon
03-15-2010, 06:27 AM
Question awhile ago I went 5/5 Shield Spec for Hard Mode Anub attempts. Now done and over with that I haven't touched the spec since. Is it worth it to spec back into Armored to the Teeth? My math is horrible so I dont kno how much AP I'm down, but I finally noticed I no longer had this. I'm just not sure if losing 3% Block in a place like ICC (20% dodge gone QQ) is really worth it since EH is so important in there. Is a bit of extra damage and threat (lol MD and tricks plz!) worth losing some RNG mitigation?

I personally think that it is. At 40k raid buffed AttT is worth 667 AP, at 35k it is worth 583 AP. That's a lot. I personally don't think block is really that great, and as a warrior if you really need to block and block a lot, you can just hit shield block and then the amount of damage you block can end up being significant. I think Anub'Arak is the only fight I've spec'd 5/5 shield spec for in my entire WotLK career.

Raysere
03-16-2010, 10:29 AM
Marrowgar = Bone Storm.
Deathwhisper = breaks between adds.
Gunship = breaks between adds / jumping.
Saurfang = you're not always tanking.
Rotface = average.
Festergut = average.
Putricide = moving a lot / in Abom.
Princes = average.
BQL = only fight where it's decent, even then, only if you're MTing.
Valithria = adds / downtime.
Sindragosa = fluctuation, EHP > Mongoose.
LK = Wouldn't know.




That's just my views on it. Compared to ToGC where you were basically stationary for every single boss, it's nowhere near as good as it once was.

Except, your view is quite flawed. The fact that you need to move on some bosses is 100% irrelevant, you should still be getting melee swings and abilities off while moving. Mongoose has no ICD, it simply has an equal PPM-based chance to proc from any melee swing or ability. Procing it on your last swing before a period of downtime, while it does result in a lost proc, does not affect your chance to proc it on your first swing when you are back in action.

I stopped using Mongoose when I took the time to see for myself how much dodge/armor I actually gained from it. The gain was rather underwhelming compared to the gain my Druid gets, I swapped to Blood Draining and have not looked back.

Aggathon
03-20-2010, 09:28 AM
I added in a link to tankingtip's frost emblem pick order guide and added in the ICC crafted boots and legs in the "easy to get" gear section.

Aggathon
03-28-2010, 10:22 AM
I updated the spec and footnotes to conform with 3.3.3

Kahmal
04-06-2010, 02:35 AM
Quick question....is Concussion Blow really even worth using in a single target situation? I'm not sure if it's threat value out weigh's Devestates but I"m assuming that it does. The thing is in terms of DPS and on how threat is rarely even an issue I see no reason to use it unless trying to build threat during the early stages of the fight, I personally only Shield Slam and Devastate at the begining to get the sunders up increasing DPS slightly.

Aggathon
04-06-2010, 06:04 AM
I'm pretty sure devastate unglyphed does not do more threat than conq blow, but glyphed devastate does. However I haven't really looked at the numbers tbh, so if someone wants to correct me, that would be great.

stiq
04-06-2010, 09:50 AM
Glyph of Devastate for more threat (pre 3.3.2 this meant that you could drop revenge out of the rotation, however now with revenge dropped anyways, this glyph really just adds even more threat and is probably the best threat glyph. With just using devastate, always having HS queued and using shield slam on cooldown I can sustain about 11k single target TPS with only 23 expertise and 121 hit)

I thought Revenge just got buffed making it usable again. Am I mistaken? Sorry, i'm new to the warrior class and just trying to get my head on straight as far as tanking goes.

Aggathon
04-06-2010, 09:51 AM
I thought Revenge just got buffed making it usable again. Am I mistaken? Sorry, i'm new to the warrior class and just trying to get my head on straight as far as tanking goes.

Ya, that's a mistake, I forgot to update that section after 3.3.3 apparently, good catch, thank you.

Edit: fixed

Kahmal
04-06-2010, 11:28 AM
Yes but my point is the actual damage of the Conc Blow compared to Devastate. I mean threat is rarely ever an issue so y even bother with it?

Aggathon
04-06-2010, 12:35 PM
Threat can be an issue though, even if you are doing just barely more TPS than your DPS, they are going to back off (if they're smart) so that they don't pull aggro. You want not just a threat lead, but a huge threat lead to give your DPS a lot of room to work with, and especially at the beginning of fights that is important. Now as you generate a large enough threat lead then sure, drop conq blow in favor of revenge and shockwave. It's not a huge deal either way especially since conq blow is on a long cooldown.

Back in TBC if I got a big enough threat lead on fights like kaz'rogal, I would just go afk, grab a soda, watch my computer from afar or something, but these days you actually have to like... taunt... or move or crap.

mistersix
04-07-2010, 11:59 AM
I only use conc blow as an interrupt at this point.

Dreadski
04-07-2010, 12:21 PM
I only use conc blow as an interrupt at this point.

Spiders and Servants in the first wing and Scientists in the plague wing, yo.

krc
04-07-2010, 03:38 PM
I only use conc blow as an interrupt at this point.

Also the casters on LDW when they have a shield up you cannot Shield Bash or Heroic Throw so your only interupt is Concussion Blow and Shockwave (and a charge/intercept if you were to stun and run in, or intervene then charge/intercept) since they can be stunned with the shield up.

stiq
04-28-2010, 11:17 AM
thoughts on glyph of revenge instead of devastate for threat? free heroic strikes seem pretty nice.

MellvarTank
04-28-2010, 11:18 AM
It's not necessary as tanking a raid boss will rarely (if ever) leave you rage-starved, so you spam heroic strike anyways. Devastate will help you out more with threat, and allow the DPS to hit a sundered-target faster.

Aggathon
04-28-2010, 11:21 AM
It is nice, however the returns on it are slim, especially if you don't have any rage problems. HS is a rage dump, you use it as much as possible, but usually only in situations where you have the rage to do it, while over a small time period if rage starved getting an extra HS might be nice, but then you also miss out on the rage gained for a white hit, which you can use to execute other tanking abilities such as well... devastate and shield slam. The devastate glyph is also simply just a massive threat increase both for over time and burst threat. If I were to consider changing a glyph for revenge, it would be blocking, but even then I think the utility of the blocking glyph for both threat and defense when combined with the use of shield block, I just can't see passing it up for a free HS every now and then.

Crittable
06-07-2010, 08:02 AM
I'm sorry if this was already asked, but I'm at work and don't really have the time to look through all 7 pages of this and numerous other threads. I have read a bit and I haven't been able to find it yet.
First of all, I love the guide, and I'm even on the same server as Agg so I guess I could talk to him tonight, but I figured I'd just post it here.

The first page of this guide is all about how hit is important for taunt. Well I glyph taunt since, other than heroics, I only tank ICC and it makes it amazingly easy to just have it glyphed. Well my question is about hit cap, but for other abilities. Right now, dps are actually pulling bosses off of me, no matter what rotation or buffs I have. They outgear me since this is just an alt toon (will be made a main in cata but not now) and my guild is working on heroic lk right now. So, again, the dps far outgear me. I have noticed something that might help though. When I charge in to the boss, I always open with Shield Slam, 3 devastates (glyphed for 5 sunders), thunderclap, and then on to the normal priority list. I've used this opener for the past year or so and it has always worked with slightly lesser geared dps. Lately though, when I charge in and attempt to open with Shield Slam, it misses. There goes my largest threat generator and it won't be up again until the cooldown finishes or I get the proc. What is the hit cap to ensure shield slam connects? I don't mind missing a few white hits here and there, but missing shield slams really irks me because I have to wait for another few seconds to use it again. By then, those highly geared dps are already catching up to me on omen and eventually pass me because I can't keep up.

Just a bit about me if you don't have time to armory me (and since I'm at work, they have armory blocked so I can't link it), I'm at 5% hit and 37ish expertise. I was told that the hit cap was 5% for prot warriors and that's where I've always been. Before you comment on the outrageously high expertise, it's because in 5 more Emblems of Frost, I'm trading my 245 triumph head for the t10 264 head and that'll drop my expertise to 27.
With these stats, I wouldn't think that I should have any problem with threat, but I see me missing those shield slams and it hurts me on the inside everytime.

Aggathon
06-07-2010, 08:25 AM
What's your toon's name, I'll armory you? I'm guessing you're in Kamigami or MM. If I'm on tonight I'll be on my priest (Vallarie) and it probably wouldn't be until late (8:30 server time and beyond) since I have ultimate frisbee today.

Edit: oh, your toon's name is Crittable, lol. And I was right, you are in Kamigami! <3 that guild.

The base answer to the question is 8% which is ~263 hit. The hit cap for fury warriors is 5% if you spec into precision, and the PvP hit cap is 5%, but the PvE hit cap for yellow attacks against a level 83 mob (boss) is 8% or 263 hit. I think it's like 263.4 or something and so 263 is like 7.99% and 264 is 8.01% or something like that.

As for your initial attack I have 2 suggestions: 1st, devastate isn't that great, start out with your normal rotation, if it's something where you can shockwave after shield slam, do it. revenge as soon as it's up. Usually I end up going shield slam -> devastate -> revenge -> shockwave -> conq blow (I know a lot of ppl are gonna be like OMG CONQ BLOW? WHY?! Partially it's due to old habit, and second even though it's terrible DPS, it's decent burst threat and if it's an add that can be stunned then the stunned target can't dodge or parry, at the begining of a fight is typically the only time I use conq blow).

Also, if shield slam misses, hit mocking blow. Even though it is a minute cooldown, if shield slam misses and you're going to lose threat at the begining of a fight, it is both a fixate (which gives you 6 more seconds to generate more threat) and a great spike threat mechanic (since there is tons of innate threat built into the ability). Usually I'll just taunt a mob if I lose aggro in the begining, most everything in ICC is tauntable so it shouldn't really be an issue. Having good and quick bindings for taunt and mocking blow (something I admittedly should work on even though I barely play my warrior any more) are very critical.

Crittable
06-07-2010, 08:53 AM
Thanks for the quick reply. I guess I'll just have to learn to love the shield slam misses because 8% hit is out of the question for me. I'm about to work on heroic lk 10 man myself, and I'll lose far too many survivabilty stats if I attempt to get 8% hit.
I noticed that, with the caliber and burst strength of the warlocks, boomkins, and fury warriors that I've been raiding with, if I don't have at least 4 sunders up (2 glyphed devastates) immediately, they'll start pulling from me.
Actually, to be honest, the only fights that I've had a problem with holding agro with my rotation is lich king (p1 because I'm trying to position him initially), lady d heroic (but that's understandable with the debuff stacks), and the initial pull on festergut. Once I have Lich King or Festergut positioned correctly, switched my vigilance to a couple people, and received a few debuffs from Festergut, I have no problem holding them. It's just that initial pull and building a comfortable threat barrier between me and the dps that I'm worried about.
Mocking blow is a good tip though... I generally leave that available for the times that I taunt and the other tank outthreats me and takes it back with taunt still on cooldown (this happens a few times with a dk main tank and me as off tank on saurfang) since I'm glyphed for taunt and it always hits.

And, like you, I use conq blow out of habit, but I have been prioritizing thunderclap, shockwave, and my second shield slam (and revenge if it procs which it normally does) above conq blow. My fingers got used to it from when I barely broke 30k 25-man buffed and was TRYING to hold agro on Malygos from far superior geared destro locks.

Aggathon
06-07-2010, 09:37 AM
I don't prioritize tclap and demo shout until I have a good threat lead. As far as initial pulls, taunting pre-emptively can help too, and revenge does more threat than devastate, so if that's up it doesn't matter if it's an initial pull or not, it's still better to hit than devastate. As far as getting taunted off of and taunting, tossing vigilance on problem tanks can be a solution, especially on fights like festergut (which mocking blow should be up again anyways, so not necessarily) where you can have essentially infinite taunts with vigilance on the other tank.

Feel free to talk to me more in game if you have any questions though.

amity
06-26-2010, 01:03 AM
Quick question on taunts.
taunting on pull will prove how much threat?
I know taunting off someone will set your threat at 110% of the threat leader, but if you're active tank can you use taunt to boost your threat ?

Ghuax
06-26-2010, 06:24 AM
Quick question on taunts.
taunting on pull will prove how much threat?
I know taunting off someone will set your threat at 110% of the threat leader, but if you're active tank can you use taunt to boost your threat ?
AFAIK, the taunt itself doesn't provide any threat at all. It just makes sure the boss is pounding on your face for at least 5 seconds, no matter how hard the DPS do their best to get it off of you. Ofcourse, after these 5 seconds you better have a healthy threat buffer up.

The reason that you get a 110% threat indication, is because at this level of threat you actually GET aggro. Meaning DPS can have 105% threat on a mob, but not pull it off of you, because this only happens at 110%. Letting your DPS get 105% threat is ofcourse a very bad idea!

Getting hit for 5 seconds, guaranteed, will give you plenty of rage to do some threat abilities.

Probably something that is commonly used (or said already) under the tanks over here is the following:
When I charge in, I immediately use shield block, for 3 reasons.
1. This gives the healers some time to get into position without worrying to much about me getting extremely low. (if they ever should worry, which I doubt, but every bit helps, right?).
2. My shield slam hits harder equals more threat.
3. It guarantees me a revenge proc, again more threat.

Aggathon
06-27-2010, 02:06 AM
Taunt gives you the threat of the person that currently holds aggro. It's also 110% for melee but 130% for ranged.

amity
06-27-2010, 08:08 AM
ahh let me rephrase what I was trying to ask:
So first off the bat I check I'm guessing taunting doesn't provide any threat itself, I'm a paladin so I obviously get the HoR damage as threat but I checked and thats the only threat that gets applied from the taunt.
next off the bat taunting off someone and what that does
So lets say I'm main tanking and I have perfectly 100k threat on the boss and the hunter pulls as he just hits 130k threat now given that these values are exact and in the time it takes me to taunt that not a single tick of threat goes through, will my raw threat value be placed at 110% of 130k or 130% of 130k?

confirmed taunt will not increase if you're in threat lead or if a dps is riding on <=109% threat.

Sifer
06-27-2010, 08:57 AM
you at 100k, hunter at 130k and pulls aggro.

You taunt you go to 130k threat.

Thats the new base 100% threat and the cycle continues.

Achilliesx
08-07-2010, 08:11 PM
hey,
had a question about tanking weapons. i've been out of the loop for quite a while see 6-8months. and i'm carrying http://www.wowhead.com/item=47967 Crusaders Glory for EHP, what weapon is a big enough upgrade to make that lose of EHP worth it? got blooddraining on it ofc. also got silverwing defender in the bags for those AV needing fights(saurfang&battleship e.g) or the normal lastword for threat fights.

Kazeyonoma
08-09-2010, 09:50 AM
unless you run into major TPS issues and nothing else you can do seems to help you, there isn't really much in terms of warranting a new weapon in terms of EH. I switched to troggbane just because i felt like a change of weapon, EH wise, CGlory is still king i think.

Aggathon
08-09-2010, 02:03 PM
Ya, I think the only thing that beats it in terms of EHP is a heroic TLK weapon... I don't really remember.

It never dropped for me so I never had to face that dilema. I did get Ogrim's Deflector though /facepalm

Achilliesx
08-10-2010, 08:45 AM
that clearing up i also meant with expertise being low with t10 itemisation, no i don't have the boots from valithria, what weapon offer the least penalty and makes up for it in other stats on bosses where tps is more demanding. this is probably stated somewhere on elitistjerk or tankspot, but being on a 7months hiatus and out of the loop of endgame raiding, asking here is much more simpler at the moment :)

Aggathon
08-10-2010, 08:46 AM
Do you have access to heroic facelifter? That's probably the weapon I might consider using first over Crusader's Glory.

Harmacy
08-10-2010, 10:49 AM
In terms of pure EH, I believe the only weapons that win are the two H LK weapons (10 man axe, 25 man mace).

If you find yourself needing a threat boost though, any of the 264 weapons would do the trick without losing too much EH.

Last Word is acceptable - the heal proc isn't outstanding but then again neither is dodge or parry, and it really isn't outstanding for Warrior threat like it is for Paladins. But it's acceptable, in your situation though I think you're smart to use it merely as a threat weapon.

The two H 10m weapons are superior to Last Word, especially H Facelifter (expertise yum!). Bonebreaker is basically the same thing as Facelifter, except with hit instead of expertise and 0.1 seconds slower.

I'm also having a hard time thinking of a reason to keep Silverwing Defender (or whatever you silly hordies call it) kicking around. There are really no "avoidance" fights at the current tier of raiding - maybe if Lootship adds hit hard at all (I've tanked H Gunship without a shield equipped, and my healers didn't notice till someone mentioned it over vent halfway through the fight... good times). Saurfang deals the Mark damage whether he hits you or not, so if you're going to stack anything make it armor (mitigates the damage on you at least).

Aggathon
08-10-2010, 11:08 AM
The horde equivalent is orgrim's deflector. It's good because of 87 stam + socket + since it's really high damage it does a butload of threat. It's itemized pretty well. I also never saw the 264 weapons drop though, so it wasn't really an issue for me =P. All I knew is that it was better than Quel'Serrar, which is what I was using.

Edit: whoops, got the 264 versions mixed up with the 251 versions. Ya if you can get a H-10 man sword they're better than silverwing/ogrim's.

Achilliesx
08-10-2010, 01:23 PM
i pretty much got access to any and all weaps untill LK25man heroic. in a raid so i'll read the replies in a bit :D

Achilliesx
08-10-2010, 03:57 PM
well now that the raid is over, here's me:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ghostlands&cn=Erangiel&gn=Lost

in bag i've got, Lastword(normal) & Silverwing Defender. barely using Sdefender cuz i'm playing arround in my ehp set most of the time even where fights benefit more from avoidence (Lootship and Saurfang) i just stick with Crusaders Glory since it the fights are pretty much faceroll so to say. on heroics i switch to lastword or in raids for trash and so on. so yea barely using silverwing defender.

im liking the suggestion of picking up Facelifter(h) and stick with it, and ofc switch to crusaders glory on survival fights, LK HC, festurgut and so on, but other then that sticking with facelifter and hope i get lucky on the boots with valithria which would solve my expertise issue, not really bothered with hit since im using glyph of taunt, leaving me open to focus on other stats rather then hit which i dont really like to gear for, push come to shove, the rings are there.

and while were on the topic of ehp, is it correct Unidentified organ(H) and the trinket from sindrigosa(H) best combination for EH?

ps. don't mind the exp/stam gems which i'll be swapping out for agi/stam for EHP.

Aggathon
08-10-2010, 09:56 PM
UO is debatable because the stacks aren't really reliable if you're only tanking 1 thing. It only averages about 3 stacks. It's really really good and is definitely up there, but I'd hesitate to say best.

Imo H-Satrina's Impeding Scarab is the best because of the on use effect, even if it is a little lower than sindragosa's fang.

Achilliesx
08-10-2010, 11:00 PM
i agree with you there about impeding scarab, but not having it doesn't make it a viable option for me, Corroded skeleton key with warrior 4set bonus is the otheralternative which is doable with tank switches and so on

Aggathon
08-11-2010, 06:11 AM
Ya, I mean I constantly switch trinkets out. Sometimes I'll run corroded/jug's vit (horde version of satrina's) and sometimes I'd run with UO/Glyph of Indom (usually in PuGs if the healers were really bad, the extra armor makes their jobs easier a lot of the time).

If on blood princes you tank the two guys by yourself, then UO wins hands down.

praetoria
08-30-2010, 11:35 AM
hey, Im currently looking for a wepon upgrade from reg facelifter.( looking for threat boost) assuming lk is not possible right now as everyone is focused on 25 h progress, what should i be looking to get?

Aggathon
08-30-2010, 06:22 PM
Heroic face lifter? facelifter is pretty legit. Maybe the heroic marrowgar mace?

Raij
08-30-2010, 08:34 PM
Well, Heroic Last Word is hands down the best TPS weapon in game currently. There is a spreadsheet somewhere.

Harmacy
08-30-2010, 09:01 PM
Well, Heroic Last Word is hands down the best TPS weapon in game currently. There is a spreadsheet somewhere.

I know this is true for a Paladin, but I thought H Mithrios was superior for a Warrior because of the higher weapon DPS and the expertise? (and the stam, although that's not related to threat :-P )

Raij
09-07-2010, 07:13 AM
It is superior, but if you are going by straight TPS, the Str from Last Word outweighs the Expertise. That said I can't think of a real situation where I'd ever use Last Word over my heroic Mithrios.

Kojiyama
09-08-2010, 08:33 AM
Are you specifically talking about tanking weapons? The majority of high-TPS weapons aren't ones with tanking stats at all.

Additionally, the value of things like The Facelifter or Mithrios depend on your current amount of Expertise. If you are still below the softcap, it will probably beat Last Word. Heroic Last Word has the advantage of being one of the easier to get high ilevel weapons, though, so you gain some easy weapon DPS there.

Things like this are pretty situational, though. Depends on Heroic Strike frequency and many other factors.

Aggathon
09-08-2010, 08:46 AM
I never got a weapon passed Ogrim's Deflector, I never really looked into it, lol.

Raij
09-08-2010, 12:33 PM
On almost all fights heroic strike frequency is near 100%, making Last Word superior at ~26 expertise. Although I would never use it over my Mithrios H as I stated.

Lautoa
10-25-2010, 05:46 AM
what are you guys putting on your cloaks? armor?

Jompalaya
10-25-2010, 12:08 PM
Armor