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View Full Version : Tanking Shadowmourne as a tanking weapon



blaisius
12-17-2009, 02:18 PM
Hi, I was just informed by my guild that our DK Tank was going to get our first Shadowmourne. Would there be any benefit at all to this? Would the ledgendary even be as good for a DK tank as some of the other 2H out there? Even if it is a good tanking weapon would it be better for a dps to have it?

Eravian
12-17-2009, 02:27 PM
This is an issue that's going to be really debated, but ultimately it will probably equal out to having about the same benefit either way, partly because increasing a tanks damage output and threat output still increases the dps output of the raid, and mostly because you'll pretty much have to geared to clear all the content anyway to get Shadowmourne, so by that point it probably won't matter as much.
It is a great weapon for DK tanks, since it increases threat value, although there are probably better weapons out there for survivability. That being said, anyone that CAN use it does have a claim to it, and no matter who you give it to it's going to benefit the raid, unless you actually end up limiting a tanks survivability by giving it to them.

greendragonempire
12-17-2009, 02:46 PM
don't kill yourself over it, legendaries are, have been, and will always be political. Just imagine it as a lv1 weapon with no stats with an orange color, because (most) guilds do not give it out based on who it benefits the most.

TheYanger
12-17-2009, 11:40 PM
At this point it appears to be the BiS tanking weap for the most part, but it's BARELY better in terms of EH than other options available, and the threat is obviously going to be fantastic but it's not exactly the ideal set of stats for a threat weapon either. It's not going to be wasted in a tank's hands, but any tank that would accept it over a dps is pretty much a jerk. It's kind of like giving valanyr to boomchickens or thunderfury to a rogue (TF was amazing for rogues, just like this is for tanks, but it clearly was a monumental weapon for a tank in comparison).

Xianth
12-18-2009, 01:46 AM
Hi, I was just informed by my guild that our DK Tank was going to get our first Shadowmourne. Would there be any benefit at all to this? Would the ledgendary even be as good for a DK tank as some of the other 2H out there? Even if it is a good tanking weapon would it be better for a dps to have it?


Both specs would have equal penis size increase from it, so it's fair game IMO

In all seriousness though it'd be a decent upgrade either way, so in my opinion it should goto somebody who's put a lot into the guild (if such a person exists in said guild). If the DK is just getting it cause he's chummy with the GM/RLs then that's bollocks, but if he's been your MT and around for every raid, even the wipefests, or is infact your GM or RL who's pulled the guild through the bad times and the good then he deserves it IMO. A lot about legendaries are symbolic from a guild's perspective, and not just a generous stat upgrade.

Synapse
12-18-2009, 01:51 AM
It's kind of like giving valanyr to boomchickens or thunderfury to a rogue (TF was amazing for rogues, just like this is for tanks, but it clearly was a monumental weapon for a tank in comparison).

Doesn't compare. A moonkin won't make full use of Val'anyr, while shadowmourne will be used by the tank and the dps equally. It's as much a tanking weapon as, say, Reckoning.

Thing is, people want orange pixels. It'll raise bitching regardless of who got it.

Xianth
12-18-2009, 01:52 AM
It's kind of like giving valanyr to boomchickens .


That's a bit of a bad comparison, because it has an obvious healing proc with 0 benefit to a dps, whereas the proc on shadowmourne can be used by both specs.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 02:39 AM
I personally think it is terrible to give this weapon to tanks first. While it may be a very very good tank weapon, especially since you can add 90 stam to that sucker... like... REALLY!? I did debate in high school and we had an argument called "Framer's Intent." Now this argument never really won debates persay, but it went something like "Well, we could talk about this, but is this really what the framers of this year's debate topic really intended us to talk about?" What I'm going to compare this to here is blizzard's intent with this weapon. IT HAS 3 RED SOCKETS WITH A STR BONUS AND A STR PROC. Like... This is CLEARLY a DPS weapon. If they wanted to make it a legendary tank weapon it'd have blue sockets and a better proc for tanks, like Windfury did.

I mean, your guilds can do what they want, but like someone earlier in the thread said, Legendaries are often political. If a DK tank is getting this first, it's because he wants something orange, not because it benefits the raid more. This weapon is a 1.5k DPS upgrade from the BiS weapon in ToGC for ret pallies when you DON'T calculate in the proc... like.... DAMN.

Synapse
12-18-2009, 02:41 AM
I personally think it is terrible to give this weapon to tanks first. While it may be a very very good tank weapon, especially since you can add 90 stam to that sucker... like... REALLY!? I did debate in high school and we had an argument called "Framer's Intent." Now this argument never really won debates persay, but it went something like "Well, we could talk about this, but is this really what the framers of this year's debate topic really intended us to talk about?" What I'm going to compare this to here is blizzard's intent with this weapon. IT HAS 3 RED SOCKETS WITH A STR BONUS AND A STR PROC. Like... This is CLEARLY a DPS weapon. If they wanted to make it a legendary tank weapon it'd have blue sockets and a better proc for tanks, like Windfury did.

I mean, your guilds can do what they want, but like someone earlier in the thread said, Legendaries are often political. If a DK tank is getting this first, it's because he wants something orange, not because it benefits the raid more. This weapon is a 1.5k DPS upgrade from the BiS weapon in ToGC for ret pallies when you DON'T calculate in the proc... like.... DAMN.
Yes, it's clearly a dps weapon. And dks are clearly designed to tank with dps weapons.
See, the discussion can go on forever and in the end the person that gets it is whoever deserves it the most due to any reason other than the usefulness of it.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 02:46 AM
I guess I just care about personal loot far to little to be effective here in the conversation. As a raid leader from day 1 I've always taken and tried to distribute loot as it would benefit the raid the best. I really could care less if it makes a good DK tank weapon because imo it benefits the raid more to give it to a DPS. Thankfully we don't actually have a main spec DK tank, so I'll never have to deal with that, but still!

I guess I do kind of agree with the "whoever deserves it" point. If you have a DK MT who has been there since like day 1 and has been loyal and helpful and hasn't missed a raid and the other options are dps that underperform, almost never show up, or are apps or something, then ya, totally give it to the DK MT. But if you have a DPS and a Tank, both with really good performance and high attendance and cool guys, give it to the DPS because it makes the raid better. If the DK MT is as cool as you think he is, he won't get upset about it. We once gave a Valy'nyr to someone because we thought the other person would gquit if we didn't give it to him, and when we didn't, he gquit, and we said, "see, that's why you didn't get it, you care more about the loot than the guild."

Synapse
12-18-2009, 02:48 AM
Yes, since threat is not a huge deal atm, "benefits the raid the most" will be whoever will get the largest dps jump from it. None of the alternatives are inneffective to the point you can argue against them.

Xianth
12-18-2009, 03:54 AM
But if you have a DPS and a Tank, both with really good performance and high attendance and cool guys, give it to the DPS because it makes the raid better.

Aye of course, my point is that if somebody is giving it to the tank then there's hopefully a good reason for it, for all we know the other people who are able to use the weapon could have given much less to the guild's cause then my DK tank. For all we know the OP could be a DPS DK who slacks a bit, occasionally doesn't bother turning up on on wipe nights and is fairly new to the guild. The DK tank may not even be an officer, but he's been there from the start and is available for every raid, helps out doing tanking second runs so people get gear with no gain to himself. Not saying this is the case, but it's an example of when it shouldn't just be a case of "well X person gets 1.132% more out of this weapon".

For me, when it comes to legendaries, people should have both earned it and get use out of it :)

tribute
12-18-2009, 05:10 AM
With that "benefits most" argument you are shooting yourselves into your foots...in fact it would be best, to spend that saronite to crafted gear until everybody can't get any benefit of it. That's the point where it helps to buff a single player massively....

So plz don't come up with "benefits most". Deserves most is the better term, and that should be as stated before, one that contributed to the guild in good and in bad times.

EDIT

Why is everybody going nuts cause of shadowmourne? There isn't even a single person now, that could have finished the first quest...and I rly can't imagine a guild that got their saronit rdy...except everybody spent their emblems for it and gave it to the guild...

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 06:51 AM
Because, as you stated, the emblem gear is really good. Emblems are the best source of saronite at the moment, and AH prices are pretty steep for them on most servers, and you need 25. So... since only one person can loot the spirit shards at the end of the quest, if the other 2H wielders out there can't get spirit shards, then it's pointless for them to get saronite until they know they'll be up and should spend it on other gear.

squats
12-18-2009, 07:01 AM
I think its terrible to even say "whos getting it first"

the ONLY thing there is to divvy up amongst your raiders who can use this is primordial saronite. the only other item you have to collect is frost shards and they are classified as a quest item so only people wiht the quest will be able to see the frost shards.

AND if you do get shadow's edge and use it to tank with. your going to get your achievments done faster then a dps will and heres why.

Blood Infusion (http://db.mmo-champion.com/q/24756/blood-infusion/)
Your weapon is now prepared to be endowed with the power of blood. You are to face Queen Lana'thel in battle and bathe the axe in her Blood Mirror power.

Blood Mirror links the tank, and another person closest to the tank. so if your tanking her you will get this achievement by default.


Frost Infusion (http://db.mmo-champion.com/q/24757/frost-infusion/)
Shadow's Edge is prepared to receive its final infusion of power. Sindragosa, the enemy's own mount, must fall. But before she is brought down, you must sustain three of her frozen breath attacks without tasting death.

You're a tank, youre going to be in front of her anyways.


The only quest i can think of where you might have to do something different as a tank is on prof putricide. You will need to drink one of his elixirs and turn into an abomination.

The argument of "who should get this first" just does not apply to this weapon. If you run alt runs and use his/her badges to buy primordial saronite (like me) then it doesnt matter. Your guild should be using saronite to get the BiS patterns bought and made for everyone before we worry about giving it out for a weapon.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 07:06 AM
It's my understanding squats, that only 1 person can loot a frost shard at a time, and you need 50. If you full clear every week at a 50/50 chance (12 bosses, divided by 2 = 6, 50/6 = 8.3) then you're looking at just over 8 weeks for the first person to get the axe.

Edit: also no, you're not getting it first =P

squats
12-18-2009, 07:09 AM
I dont care about loot. You get good loot from being in a good guild, and i am. ill get it eventually

and if history holds true this quest item will work the same as every other. it has a chance to drop off of the boss for each person with the quest. how do we know that only people with the quest can see the shards? because they dont have class restrictions on who they can be looted to.

so valys may get one on boss A, but i may not. we might get one each. ya dont know.

also

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=50274)

frost shards have a (stupidly) high drop rate even on normal bosses.

EDIT: While this weapon will take a very very long time to craft. i honestly dont belive there will be anything to divvy up like we did with valanyr. blizzard has even been quoted saying "When the first person in your guild gets shadowmourne, the next wont be far behind."

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 07:12 AM
Ya, which is why I said 50%, and what I've been hearing is that it's like Shards of Valy'nyr... actually you know what can we get some sort of confirmation in on this. Being an officer this is important, and frankly if I don't have to worry about it and if the RNG will decide who it shows up for, then I'm f***in' happy because I hate making loot decisions.

Edit: also I was just messin' with ya.

squats
12-18-2009, 07:18 AM
Ya, which is why I said 50%, and what I've been hearing is that it's like Shards of Valy'nyr... actually you know what can we get some sort of confirmation in on this. Being an officer this is important, and frankly if I don't have to worry about it and if the RNG will decide who it shows up for, then I'm f***in' happy because I hate making loot decisions.

Edit: also I was just messin' with ya.

It's been asked in the quest forum several times and there have been no response other then "The next person to get it wont be far behind"

EDIT: on another note, wtf am i going to do with bryntroll... this thing sucks in your off hand

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 07:19 AM
It's been asked in the quest forum several times and there have been no response other then "The next person to get it wont be far behind"

EDIT: on another note, wtf am i going to do with bryntroll... this thing sucks in your off hand

God Damn that's frustrating.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 07:12 PM
It's been asked in the quest forum several times and there have been no response other then "The next person to get it wont be far behind"

EDIT: on another note, wtf am i going to do with bryntroll... this thing sucks in your off hand


Apparently the "quest item" tag has been removed from the shards.

squats
12-18-2009, 07:13 PM
Apparently the "quest item" tag has been removed from the shards.

It has, but as i brought up to baklava, if you could loot the item without the quest we would be seeing the shards by now wouldnt we?

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 07:17 PM
Not necessarily, imo I have no f***ing idea how it's gonna work. I think you should have to do the quest lines on heroic mode, then kill arthas on normal, and the shards would drop like the quest item scenario you brought up, but then again I'm not a blizzard dev.

squats
12-18-2009, 07:18 PM
We will know in a few weeks.

hbombs
12-18-2009, 07:26 PM
Yes, it's clearly a dps weapon. And dks are clearly designed to tank with dps weapons.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 07:49 PM
Ramaladni's Blade of Culling - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50798) <- looking at this item, do you understand what I mean about intent now?

Suicyco
12-18-2009, 08:11 PM
Pfft I'm taking it, so I can tank ret spec'd in 5 man heroics......... not...... it's going to go to our ret pali who's been there from day 1, who's respec'd every time we needed an off tank or an xtra healer, who's spent almost as much time working on and with our guild as I have, never complains when he doesn't get picked to go on the raid cause we need an xtra caster dps and who truly deserves it and will benefit his toon and our raid the most. And for the quests I'm going to go heals or ret and let him tank so he can get the quests done a bit easier. We've got all our alts farming badges and storing saronite just for this and the BiS patterns once we have enough. Sadly though there will be a lot of selfish gm's and raid leaders who see orange pixel's and want it just to say they have it and a lot of players who need and deserve it a lot more that wont get it.

That being said .... legendary healing mace, legendary axe for dps or dk tanks, Quel Delar for dps, casters and dk/druid tanks...... isn't it about time for 1 hander tanks to get something? And don't say Quel Serar which is a PoS imo I mean really 76 +- stam no stats and an occasional def proc...... I mean seriously? For real? We didn't even bother sharding it just sold it for the trash it is.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 08:29 PM
BQS rocks! shut yo mouf!

Seriously though, the uptime on Sanctuary is pretty high. The only weapon I think is better is the H-10m anub weapon.

Also: have you see the arthas tanking weapons? /drool.

Wars
12-18-2009, 08:35 PM
The 10man hardmode weapon? Yeah...I'll take two of those on my dk please. I don't even care about the speed.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 09:23 PM
You know the SNL skit "Jizz in my pants" Ya when I saw that weapon... that... <---

Wars
12-18-2009, 09:26 PM
When bruce willis was dead at the end of sixth sense....

Off topic but still.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 09:28 PM
I just ate a grape...


Though my favorite is:

Last Night
I saw a Film
As I recall it was a Horror Film
I walked outside into the rain
Looked at my phone and saw you rang
and I...

/threadjacked?

Okay so... Shadowmourne is cool right?

Wars
12-18-2009, 09:30 PM
Shadowmourne is so cool I want to be On a Boat, or your Mother's Lover, or maybe put my D*** in a Box for it....


If you're a dk tank there really isn't much need to go for shadowmourne except, "ZOMG LEGENDARY, ORANGE 344deeeps, cool proc RAWR!"

Which really isn't the idealistic thing to do here, though I'm still going to try to get one.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 09:35 PM
well almost 300 stam is awesome too, but tbh if I were a DK I'd be passing that to a DPS unless I hated all the DPS and they were bad and had poopy pants.

I'll try to get one of the quest drops are like % per person or w/e, but if they have to be distributed like the Fragments of Valy'nyr, then screw it 'cuz I'd be like 8th in line or something. I haven't gotten a PvE weapon in an instance since betrayer of humanity.

Wars
12-18-2009, 09:38 PM
Yeah I'm basically raid leading our alt/b-team 25man ICC so I'm going to do what I can to LOLNINJA the stuff on my dk because I'm pretty awesome...well and that I'm one of the few people who have a clue about things that are going on in there.

Valquirie
12-18-2009, 10:13 PM
A Death Knight who is exclusively a tank can gain a lot of stamina from the sockets. The proc should be unholy AoE-threat!

As a Death Knight tank, who has a not-disrespect-worthy DpS set, I'd love to go for Shadowmourne and simply swap runes as necessary, while gemming it with a Sovereign Dreadstone (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40129).


. . .If you're a dk tank there really isn't much need to go for shadowmourne. . .

It's a legendary; it cannot be useless. ;P

Wars
12-18-2009, 10:24 PM
Obviously it can't be! I still want one!

Suicyco
12-18-2009, 11:02 PM
BQS rocks! shut yo mouf!

Seriously though, the uptime on Sanctuary is pretty high. The only weapon I think is better is the H-10m anub weapon.

Also: have you see the arthas tanking weapons? /drool.

Yeah the arthas stuff ... sigh ... soooo yummy.... and BQS sucks I put the math for it in the BQS posts.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 11:11 PM
Ya, I saw it, I think you're wrong, no offense.

Steakshield
12-19-2009, 07:50 AM
I don't think anyone made mention of this but Death Knights get avoidance from strength.

Forceful Deflection - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49410)
Increases your Parry Rating by 25% of your total Strength.

So if the 40 Strength buff does in fact stack, that's 400 strength or 100 Parry Rating at max stack, not a lot but still, avoidance. Not to mention it strength is affected by Kings and such.

So...I really see no problem with it being a DK tank weapon, more power to them I guess.

Durandro
12-19-2009, 09:13 AM
I thought the same, Strength is an avoidance stat to DK's as well as threat. Slamming three Strength/Stamina gems in there and you've got a very respectable weapon.

Better for DPS or Tanks? To be honest, I don't think there's a huge amount of difference either way. By the time you've got one you should be clearing ICC anyway. There's no progression past this as of yet, and I doubt it'll last as a useful weapon very long into Cataclysm. It's an E-Peen weapon, pure and simple.

And honestly? I think they made a mistake with it. They should have allowed you to forge between a choice of several weapons, one viable for each class. Its unfair to those who don't play either a healer or a plate class as it is now.

As an aside...Reigns of Sindragosa as a Legendary rare mount drop? :D

I can dream.

Aggathon
12-19-2009, 03:42 PM
Actually it will be a very valuable progression weapon for hardmodes, you don't have to do any hardmodes to get it, you just have to do special things on normal fights. I think rough calculations are saying the first ones of these can be made mid February.

TheYanger
12-20-2009, 05:42 AM
You get such pitiful avoidance returns from strength/forceful deflection that, yes, it truly is not worth considering. You're better off taking an agility 2h if you're looking to get avoidance. The max EH from the thing is barely superior to the heroic Ramaladni's culling, and as someone already noted, threat is just a non-issue these days. If it were, then yes you can make an argument, but who cares if OMG THE DK TANK DOES 1k MORE TPS! when in reality it's totally unnecessary. Justify it all you want, but it is far far far more wasted on a tank than a DPS.

And no, I'm not a bitter DK tank who isn't getting it, I could give it to myself if I wanted to - the point is it would be pretty selfish and foolish. I'm all for the guild offering legendaries to those who deserve them. I'm all for some personal responsibility in the DK tank realizing that it's not in their best interests to receive this item as well. You're going to be a lot better off using your saronite on badge gear/crafted pants as a tank.

Ulosthegame
12-20-2009, 07:56 AM
Heroic ramaladni's will be better in terms of EH. 2 blue sockets, one yellow, and slightly more stam should make it more attractive.
Edit: totally didn't read the thread past the first page.