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drae
12-17-2009, 12:16 PM
Something I discovered in ICC25m last night while awaiting the beginning of our raid.

Taunt is not on DR for trash. I was like WTF we're not supposed to be able to ping pong mobs like that.

So I went Blue hunting, apparently I missed something in the Patch Notes:

Patch Notes - Classes General:

Taunt Diminishing Returns: We’ve revised the system for diminishing returns on Taunt so that creatures do not become immune to Taunt until after 5 Taunts have landed. The duration of the Taunt effect will be reduced by 35% instead of 50% for each taunt landed. In addition, most creatures in the world will not be affected by Taunt diminishing returns at all. Creatures will only have Taunt diminishing returns if they have been specifically flagged for that behavior based on the design of a given encounter.

Which is really quite interesting. I imagine lady deathwhisper is flagged for DR on Taunt so tanks can't swap taunts back and forth to fly up the Threat table.

I never found the DR on taunt to be particularly inconvenient and there was no community outcry about the DR that I came across; so why did Blizzard change it?

So if like me you missed this snippet from the patch notes, well here it is!

Synapse
12-17-2009, 12:17 PM
chaintaunting doesn't make you fly up the threat table. Taunt gives you the exact amount of threat the target's aggroed person has.

drae
12-17-2009, 12:39 PM
orly I thought it was 10% over current target. I've never really thought about it before; but I spose we have to make the additional 10% to retain aggro once we taunt.

touche

Satorri
12-17-2009, 12:43 PM
I assume the change was just an advancement in tech. Taunt diminishing was introduced to keep tanks from being able to just taunt some targets (raid bosses in particular) back and forth and essentially just kite them while dps go to town. If used well it could easily make tanking not require anything more than hit rating and timing.

I'm guessing they revised it further because the situations described above they want to avoid, but there are other situations where you do not want to necessarily have diminishing taunts mess with the group. This just lets them decide when it happens and when it doesn't. Some things, I'm sure, they want players to be able to taunt semi-frequently without killing everyone if it's too fast.



And yeah, taunt just brings you even and makes you the main target (essentially that does give you the 10% margin on melee, but only because you're now the main target to mark threat against).

jere
12-17-2009, 01:34 PM
orly I thought it was 10% over current target. I've never really thought about it before; but I spose we have to make the additional 10% to retain aggro once we taunt.

touche
As a note, you do not have to make the additional 10% to retain threat. Taunt gives you the same threat as the current aggro holder AND makes you the current aggro holder, bypassing the 10%/30% melee/ranged rule.

Khanus
12-17-2009, 03:07 PM
The big reason I see as having been the impetus for the change is Gormok in ToGC 25. If you are swapping at 2 stacks, you can run into taunt-immunity if you don't give a few seconds between application and taunt. It would essentially end your encounter unless you had some well-timed Hands of Protection. It took a skilled tank (somewhat skilled, at least) to keep track of the few seconds. I would imagine that Blizzard never intended for the encounter to work that way, and would rather you taunt when the tank ahead of you receives their second stack.

Satorri
12-18-2009, 06:27 AM
Hmmm, really? I've never gotten Gormokk taunt immune.

jere
12-18-2009, 07:12 AM
I would believe it is possible. DR timer is around 18secs. If you are taunting on a 2 stack rotation, then there are certainly sequences that would eventually lead to a taunt immune boss (before 3.3 of course)

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 07:18 AM
As a note, you do not have to make the additional 10% to retain threat. Taunt gives you the same threat as the current aggro holder AND makes you the current aggro holder, bypassing the 10%/30% melee/ranged rule.

^ This. And since it makes you the current aggro holder, someone has to do 10% more than you to pull aggro in melee range.

Reev
12-18-2009, 07:29 AM
Last night on Deathwhisper 10, my offtank died in phase 2, and I stacked to 5 touches of insignificance quickly. Half our dps died as well, so things were going very slowly. Our dps warrior of course pulled threat off of me because of the touches, but I was able to taunt, and for some reason Deathwhisper would stay on me for 10 seconds or more. When she peeled off, I could taunt again, and again have 10 seconds of aggro. I did this for the rest of the fight, and never ran into diminishing returns.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 07:37 AM
The DR timer is 18 seconds to immune though, meaning if you taunt 5 times in 18 seconds then the boss will go immune, I have a feeling if you taunt once every 10, you won't have that problem.

Reev
12-18-2009, 07:43 AM
Ah, I thought that meant that if you taunt five times, each time less than 18 seconds from the previous time, you'd run into DR. Glad to know that's not the case.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 07:47 AM
ya, I mean... I can't confirm that, but it makes sense to me.

0 seconds: Taunt 1
10 Seconds: Taunt 2 half effect
18 Seconds: DR period over, reset
20 Seconds: Taunt 3, full effect

^ That's how I envision it in my head at least.

Satorri
12-18-2009, 07:53 AM
Impale has a 30 sec duration on 10-man, and a 40 second duration on 25-man (45 sec on heroic, apparently, I never noticed that discrepancy).

On 25, with a two tank method we trade every 4 to give it sufficient time to fall off, meaning he applies it every 25 seconds apart (20 seconds on 10)? If you're trading every 2 that's still a long window between taunts. That means you would have no cause to taunt even remotely within the diminishing window?

Reev
12-18-2009, 07:53 AM
To get 5 taunts in 18 seconds, you'd have to have 3 tanks taunting the mob on cooldown. That is, of course, with the standard taunt cooldown, and not the T9 2 piece bonus taunt cooldown. That's a ton of taunting. So if the DR work the way you're describing, we can effectively not have to worry about the DRs at all.

Aggathon
12-18-2009, 08:13 AM
Impale has a 30 sec duration on 10-man, and a 40 second duration on 25-man (45 sec on heroic, apparently, I never noticed that discrepancy).

On 25, with a two tank method we trade every 4 to give it sufficient time to fall off, meaning he applies it every 25 seconds apart (20 seconds on 10)? If you're trading every 2 that's still a long window between taunts. That means you would have no cause to taunt even remotely within the diminishing window?

Ya, I wasn't talking about impales, I was talking about Reev's situation.

drae
12-18-2009, 08:20 AM
^ This. And since it makes you the current aggro holder, someone has to do 10% more than you to pull aggro in melee range.

If someone has to do 10% more then you to pull aggro, and my offtank taunts... would that not increase the total threat against the mob by 10%? Then if I taunt an additional 10%?


I've never considered this before, but my understanding was the following was possible:

Tank 1 Attacks the boss = 100%
Tank 2 immediately taunts the boss = 110%
Tank 1 taunts immediately after tank 2 does = 120%
Tank 2 taunts it back = 130%
etc etc.



But now I'm wondering if it works like:
Tank 1 attacks the boss = 100%
Tank 2 immediately taunts boss = stays 100%
Tank 1 taunts immediately after tank 2 does = stays 100%
Tank 2 taunts it back = stays 100%
etc etc.

And I'm talking total threat on the Boss like say a dps that never attacked the boss.

Basically I can't remember which is true. I've never really considered successive taunts and their impact on the threat table in this manner.

Satorri
12-18-2009, 08:23 AM
I've seen nothing to suggest that taunting ever gives you more threat than is already on the target.

If anything my most recent Saurfang attempt would suggest the contrary. My co-tank had to yell at me to stop attacking because after he taunted I crit a couple times and yanked aggro back.

Reev
12-18-2009, 08:28 AM
No, it's more like this:

You attack the boss and have 100 threat.
The offtank taunts the boss, and has 100 threat.
A melee dps pulls aggro from the offtank at 110 threat.
The main tank taunts it off of the melee dps and now has 110 threat and aggro.

Taunt only brings you to the exact same amount of threat as the highest person and gives you aggro. So for anyone to get aggro off of you, they need to get to 30% more threat than you if they're ranged, and 10% more if they're melee. If someone gets aggro from you without taunting, it means that they are at least 10% ahead of you on the threat table, so taunting will yield you at least that 10% threat.

If 2 taunts are taunting back and forth, however, without changing the amount of threat on the mob through threat moves, all it will shift is aggro, and no actual threat.

drae
12-18-2009, 08:30 AM
That's a decent explanation thnx Reev.

I was a little in the dark as to whether or not taunt added the extra 10% to pull aggro or just made you the target.

Appreciate it!

Optimoos
12-18-2009, 08:32 AM
If someone has to do 10% more then you to pull aggro, and my offtank taunts... would that not increase the total threat against the mob by 10%? Then if I taunt an additional 10%?


I've never considered this before, but my understanding was the following was possible:

Tank 1 Attacks the boss = 100%
Tank 2 immediately taunts the boss = 110%
Tank 1 taunts immediately after tank 2 does = 120%
Tank 2 taunts it back = 130%
etc etc.


No



But now I'm wondering if it works like:
Tank 1 attacks the boss = 100%
Tank 2 immediately taunts boss = stays 100%
Tank 1 taunts immediately after tank 2 does = stays 100%
Tank 2 taunts it back = stays 100%
etc etc.

And I'm talking total threat on the Boss like say a dps that never attacked the boss.

Basically I can't remember which is true. I've never really considered successive taunts and their impact on the threat table in this manner.

Yes. All taunt is doing is making you the target and granting you equal threat of the current target. I'm fairly certain it doesn't even give you threat equal to the highest on the table, because in that case you could watch Omen for a ranged to spike up to 125% threat, taunt before the mob peels away, and instantly have that boost in your threat.

drae
12-18-2009, 08:36 AM
No

Yes. All taunt is doing is making you the target and granting you equal threat of the current target. I'm fairly certain it doesn't even give you threat equal to the highest on the table, because in that case you could watch Omen for a ranged to spike up to 125% threat, taunt before the mob peels away, and instantly have that boost in your threat.

Ya I've tried that before and it didn't apprear to work. Much to the disappointment of my warlock friend on twin valks. It's the current targets threat that you equalize to; of that I am fairly certain.

Makes a lot more sense now, damn the misinformation spread by the masses!

Reev
12-18-2009, 08:38 AM
No



Yes. All taunt is doing is making you the target and granting you equal threat of the current target. I'm fairly certain it doesn't even give you threat equal to the highest on the table, because in that case you could watch Omen for a ranged to spike up to 125% threat, taunt before the mob peels away, and instantly have that boost in your threat.

Right.

Xianth
12-18-2009, 08:47 AM
Basically, as it is now the DR will only be a risk if the taunts are used to exploit the 4 second fixate of taunt in a chain, rather than use taunt every 10 sec CD.

I also read a blue post sometime a while ago that they would only have the taunt DR mechanic applied to bosses that could be exploited by it, and not as a general rule as it was pre 3.3.

drae
12-18-2009, 11:02 AM
I also read a blue post sometime a while ago that they would only have the taunt DR mechanic applied to bosses that could be exploited by it, and not as a general rule as it was pre 3.3.

I've seen this as well.

jere
12-18-2009, 11:42 AM
ya, I mean... I can't confirm that, but it makes sense to me.

0 seconds: Taunt 1
10 Seconds: Taunt 2 half effect
18 Seconds: DR period over, reset
20 Seconds: Taunt 3, full effect

^ That's how I envision it in my head at least.

It actually worked like this (pre 3.3):

00.0 Taunt 1 lands, DR count 1, 18s DR timer started
10.0 Taunt 2 lands, DR count 2, 18s DR timer restarted
20.0 Taunt 3 lands, DR count 3, 18s DR timer restarted
***All taunts immune for the next 18s
38.0 Taunt 4 can now land, DR count 1, 18s DR timer started
***and so on.

So if you had your tanks taunting every 10 seconds, then Gormok could have gone immune in those days (after 3 successful taunts, or 30s into the fight--remember the first tanks holds for 10s before the first taunt).

EDIT: as a note, you can check the taunt guide I wrote for any testing done for this. A lot of it is listed in the posts more so than the OP, but the info is in the OP.
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/50984-taunt-mechanics-guide-discussion.html

There is generally a lot of misinformation spread on taunt.