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Feanorr
12-17-2009, 07:37 AM
hello there,

I hope it havent been discussed already, I made a quick search but I dont have much time actually so I didnt read much of this forum recently.

Ok so here is what I am wondering:
With the T10 2p bonus (+20% damage to DnD), would it not be interresting to use DnD even in a single situation? With and/or without the glyph.

About the glyph, does it stack to +40% damage?


I guess not many people got 2 T10 piece already (if any ^^), but maybe some of you got some on the PTR; or at least maybe we can start by making some theorycrafts

Edgewalker
12-17-2009, 10:19 AM
Nobody has 2 piece yet, I have the maximum number of badges and at best I can get 1 piece. It will be a week, maybe 2, before you see people with the set.

Satorri
12-17-2009, 10:25 AM
In fact, it *should* stack multiplicatively to +44%

So let's crunch some numbers and see what happens.

First off the base damage is:
62 + 0.0475*AP damage per second for 10 seconds

It *can* crit, that will be important later. The bonus threat multiplier is 1.9, so 1 damage will be 1.9 times more threat than 1 damage from, say, Blood Strike.

The talents that could buff DnD directly are:
Blood:
Dark Conviction, Blood-gorged (>75% HP)
Frost:
Black Ice, Tundra Stalker
Unholy:
Impurity, Desolation, Bone Shield (while active), Ebon Plaguebringer (passive +crit%) Rage of Rivendare

We'll leave out the indirect buffs for now and just take a set approximate AP for being fully raid buffed. We can also assume that the +13% magic damage buff is applied by you or the raid.

For now, let's disregard latency, or the complication of having/waiting for 3 runes to become available, and for now we'll not consider chaining it (where Morbidity would become key).

So, if our example tank has 6k AP (since we're taking a t10 geared tank), DnD without any talents or glyphs will tick for:
62 + 0.0475*6000 = 347 per second

We will need to compare it to the alternatives for each spec to get a good sense of its value. But for simplicity sake let's say the AP is the same for all three (we'll just play with crit chance slightly for each). All the tanks will have a base of 15% melee crit, and 8% spell crit with raid buffs and gear.


Blood
Our Blood tank has Dark Conviction for +5% crit, we'll take Blood-gorged to be active (above 75% health). The alternatives for the Blood Knight will be HS plus a DS. With a fairly standard spec from Blood those will do (assuming 2 diseases up):

Dmg(HS) = 2.1*X + 0.15*AP + 441.6
Dmg(DS) = 2.625*X + 0.1875*AP + 222.75

Before crit concerns or talent multipliers. Let's use a 264 2-hander, Cryptmaker (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49919) will do, so X (weapon DPS) will be 294.6.

Dmg(HS) = 1960.26
Dmg(DS) = 2121.075

Factor in the major Blood talents that will improve them, adjust average damage to include critical chance (also individual by talents), and we'll leave out armor concerns for the time being:

CAA-Dmg(HS) = 5025
CAA-Dmg(DS) = 3852 (4815 glyphed, we'll disregard healing for now)

So the total HS+DS (BFU) damage will be = 8877 (18,406 threat)
If we are using the DS glyph it will go up to = 9840 (20,403 threat)

DnD for the Blood tank will do:
347*1.10 = 382 damage non-crit or 431 crit-adjusted average

431 dmg per sec for 10 seconds = 4313 dmg (16,993 threat)

If you add the set bonus that increases to
5176 dmg (20,391 threat) w/ set bonus

If you add the glyph on top of that:
6211 dmg (24,470 threat) w/ set bonus and glyph

So one or the other effect will not quite bring it on par. If you add both, it will surpass the combined elements without considering DS healing. If we add a DS heal threat, we'll say on a tank with 52k health for a 7.8k heal, and we'll average that down with a typical 50% overhealing, that will heal 3.9k health which will add 4043 threat. So,

HS+DS with DS glyph, and including DS healing will average = 24,446 threat

TL;DR (Blood) I'd say it's not worth using a glyph slot to get the benefit of DnD on a single target when it only matches the average threat of HS+DS combined, generates less RP, and does not include a heal.


Frost
The Frost tank has slightly different concerns. Using DnD will block you from maximizing your FU spends by using one half of your third FU pair from Death runes. That said, we'll not factor that in and just compare straight to BS+OB. There are lots of styles, but dual wield is a very popular, so we'll take a dual wielding tank with two Bloodvenom Blades (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50412) at 226.5 dps each.

I'll short-hand the damage calculations this time and just wrap in all the elements for a typical dual wield Frost build (w/o Subversion, CotG), with OB glyphed, and not factoring Rime procs.

CAA-Dmg(BS) = 2238
CAA-Dmg(OB) = 4289

Combined BS+OB = 6527 dmg (13,533 threat)

DnD will benefit from Black Ice and Tundra Stalker (but no crit buffs):
347*1.10*1.15 = 439 damage non-crit or 474 crit-adjusted average

474 dmg per sec for 10 seconds = 4741 dmg (18,677 threat)

If you add the set bonus that increases to
5689 dmg (22,412 threat) w/ set bonus

If you add the glyph on top of that:
6827 dmg (26,895 threat) w/ set bonus and glyph

At first appearance DnD already seems better than BS+OB, but consider instead that A.) using DnD will generate only 15 RP instead of 25 (30 with CotG) with the same cost) meaning less FSs, B.) it will inhibit future use of FU pairs, and not have reduce your chances for Rime procs, and C.) will generate even more rune blackout time than Frost usually does (combined with A means less ability to fill the blackouts).

TL;DR (Frost) it seems that DnD *appears* as not a bad tool for Frost on a single target, especially with these benefits. However, doing so will compromise the typical threat methods and may cause hard-to-quantify threat losses. Use at your own risk.

Unholy
Unholy has the zippiest DnD, we'll show that in a sec. We'll compare it to a BS+ScS alternative using the same Cryptmaker weapon from above (294.6 dps).

CAA-dmg(BS) = 1515
CAA-dmg(ScS) = 4207

Combined BS+ScS = 5722 dmg (11,865 threat)
Alternately, we could compare it to 1.5 ScSs as it would inhibit additional ScS use with Death Runes. That would be = 6311 dmg (13,085 threat)

DnD will benefit from Impurity, Desolation, and Rage of Rivendare (and 3% bonus crit chance from Ebon Plaguebringer, we'll neglect Bone Shield in general):
(62+0.057*6000)*1.05*1.10 = 467 damage non-crit or 518 crit-adjusted average

518 dmg per sec for 10 seconds = 5179 dmg (20,405 threat)

If you add the set bonus that increases to
6215 dmg (22,412 threat) w/ set bonus

If you add the glyph on top of that:
7458 dmg (29,384 threat) w/ set bonus and glyph

So obviously Unholy has the highest potential for this. There are a couple considerations that are shared with Frost, primarily the concern that you are generating less RP and using fewer GCDs so you will have longer periods of nothing to do, nothing you can do.

That said, if you want to really make the most of this set bonus buff with obscene multipliers, here's the spec/glyphs I'd recommend:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZ0xLZbghIb0zgc0x0uIq:osM0Mm)

This spec would be a die-hard AoE threat spec, and all you would really need to do is make sure your diseases are up on everything and DnD is down. The DnD with this spec (using the other same conditions as above) would do about 3.2k TPS per tick on each target, all by itself. Be prepared to stand around a lot auto-swinging though. =)


NB: The one tricky thing about relying on DnD for single target threat, or threat in general is that it is stuck in location and ticks once per second. That means that to get the full value on a target, you need to have it standing in the DnD for all 10 ticks. If you have to move the target(s), every tick they miss will reduce the total effective threat by 10%.

Feanorr
12-18-2009, 03:39 AM
Tks a lots for the maths, that's exactly what I was hoping for :D

dotJEM
02-19-2010, 12:17 PM
In fact, it *should* stack multiplicatively to +44%

So let's crunch some numbers and see what happens.

First off the base damage is:
62 + 0.0475*AP damage per second for 10 seconds

It *can* crit, that will be important later. The bonus threat multiplier is 1.9, so 1 damage will be 1.9 times more threat than 1 damage from, say, Blood Strike.

The talents that could buff DnD directly are:
Blood:
Dark Conviction, Blood-gorged (>75% HP)
Frost:
Black Ice, Tundra Stalker
Unholy:
Impurity, Desolation, Bone Shield (while active), Ebon Plaguebringer (passive +crit%) Rage of Rivendare

We'll leave out the indirect buffs for now and just take a set approximate AP for being fully raid buffed. We can also assume that the +13% magic damage buff is applied by you or the raid.

For now, let's disregard latency, or the complication of having/waiting for 3 runes to become available, and for now we'll not consider chaining it (where Morbidity would become key).

So, if our example tank has 6k AP (since we're taking a t10 geared tank), DnD without any talents or glyphs will tick for:
62 + 0.0475*6000 = 347 per second

We will need to compare it to the alternatives for each spec to get a good sense of its value. But for simplicity sake let's say the AP is the same for all three (we'll just play with crit chance slightly for each). All the tanks will have a base of 15% melee crit, and 8% spell crit with raid buffs and gear.


Blood
Our Blood tank has Dark Conviction for +5% crit, we'll take Blood-gorged to be active (above 75% health). The alternatives for the Blood Knight will be HS plus a DS. With a fairly standard spec from Blood those will do (assuming 2 diseases up):

Dmg(HS) = 2.1*X + 0.15*AP + 441.6
Dmg(DS) = 2.625*X + 0.1875*AP + 222.75

Before crit concerns or talent multipliers. Let's use a 264 2-hander, Cryptmaker (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49919) will do, so X (weapon DPS) will be 294.6.

Dmg(HS) = 1960.26
Dmg(DS) = 2121.075

Factor in the major Blood talents that will improve them, adjust average damage to include critical chance (also individual by talents), and we'll leave out armor concerns for the time being:

CAA-Dmg(HS) = 5025
CAA-Dmg(DS) = 3852 (4815 glyphed, we'll disregard healing for now)

So the total HS+DS (BFU) damage will be = 8877 (18,406 threat)
If we are using the DS glyph it will go up to = 9840 (20,403 threat)

DnD for the Blood tank will do:
347*1.10 = 382 damage non-crit or 431 crit-adjusted average

431 dmg per sec for 10 seconds = 4313 dmg (16,993 threat)

If you add the set bonus that increases to
5176 dmg (20,391 threat) w/ set bonus

If you add the glyph on top of that:
6211 dmg (24,470 threat) w/ set bonus and glyph

So one or the other effect will not quite bring it on par. If you add both, it will surpass the combined elements without considering DS healing. If we add a DS heal threat, we'll say on a tank with 52k health for a 7.8k heal, and we'll average that down with a typical 50% overhealing, that will heal 3.9k health which will add 4043 threat. So,

HS+DS with DS glyph, and including DS healing will average = 24,446 threat

TL;DR (Blood) I'd say it's not worth using a glyph slot to get the benefit of DnD on a single target when it only matches the average threat of HS+DS combined, generates less RP, and does not include a heal.


Frost
The Frost tank has slightly different concerns. Using DnD will block you from maximizing your FU spends by using one half of your third FU pair from Death runes. That said, we'll not factor that in and just compare straight to BS+OB. There are lots of styles, but dual wield is a very popular, so we'll take a dual wielding tank with two Bloodvenom Blades (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50412) at 226.5 dps each.

I'll short-hand the damage calculations this time and just wrap in all the elements for a typical dual wield Frost build (w/o Subversion, CotG), with OB glyphed, and not factoring Rime procs.

CAA-Dmg(BS) = 2238
CAA-Dmg(OB) = 4289

Combined BS+OB = 6527 dmg (13,533 threat)

DnD will benefit from Black Ice and Tundra Stalker (but no crit buffs):
347*1.10*1.15 = 439 damage non-crit or 474 crit-adjusted average

474 dmg per sec for 10 seconds = 4741 dmg (18,677 threat)

If you add the set bonus that increases to
5689 dmg (22,412 threat) w/ set bonus

If you add the glyph on top of that:
6827 dmg (26,895 threat) w/ set bonus and glyph

At first appearance DnD already seems better than BS+OB, but consider instead that A.) using DnD will generate only 15 RP instead of 25 (30 with CotG) with the same cost) meaning less FSs, B.) it will inhibit future use of FU pairs, and not have reduce your chances for Rime procs, and C.) will generate even more rune blackout time than Frost usually does (combined with A means less ability to fill the blackouts).

TL;DR (Frost) it seems that DnD *appears* as not a bad tool for Frost on a single target, especially with these benefits. However, doing so will compromise the typical threat methods and may cause hard-to-quantify threat losses. Use at your own risk.

Unholy
Unholy has the zippiest DnD, we'll show that in a sec. We'll compare it to a BS+ScS alternative using the same Cryptmaker weapon from above (294.6 dps).

CAA-dmg(BS) = 1515
CAA-dmg(ScS) = 4207

Combined BS+ScS = 5722 dmg (11,865 threat)
Alternately, we could compare it to 1.5 ScSs as it would inhibit additional ScS use with Death Runes. That would be = 6311 dmg (13,085 threat)

DnD will benefit from Impurity, Desolation, and Rage of Rivendare (and 3% bonus crit chance from Ebon Plaguebringer, we'll neglect Bone Shield in general):
(62+0.057*6000)*1.05*1.10 = 467 damage non-crit or 518 crit-adjusted average

518 dmg per sec for 10 seconds = 5179 dmg (20,405 threat)

If you add the set bonus that increases to
6215 dmg (22,412 threat) w/ set bonus

If you add the glyph on top of that:
7458 dmg (29,384 threat) w/ set bonus and glyph

So obviously Unholy has the highest potential for this. There are a couple considerations that are shared with Frost, primarily the concern that you are generating less RP and using fewer GCDs so you will have longer periods of nothing to do, nothing you can do.

That said, if you want to really make the most of this set bonus buff with obscene multipliers, here's the spec/glyphs I'd recommend:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZ0xLZbghIb0zgc0x0uIq:osM0Mm)

This spec would be a die-hard AoE threat spec, and all you would really need to do is make sure your diseases are up on everything and DnD is down. The DnD with this spec (using the other same conditions as above) would do about 3.2k TPS per tick on each target, all by itself. Be prepared to stand around a lot auto-swinging though. =)


NB: The one tricky thing about relying on DnD for single target threat, or threat in general is that it is stuck in location and ticks once per second. That means that to get the full value on a target, you need to have it standing in the DnD for all 10 ticks. If you have to move the target(s), every tick they miss will reduce the total effective threat by 10%.

Ive told you before, and i will do so again... it is 11 ticks... tested and confirmed

Satorri
02-19-2010, 01:00 PM
Haven't told me that I've seen, but in that case you can just increase the DnD numbers by 10%.

dotJEM
02-19-2010, 01:34 PM
Haven't told me that I've seen, but in that case you can just increase the DnD numbers by 10%.

Unless the person behind the account has changed, then yes i have, but it is in a very old post from the Ulduar days...
and yes i could figure as much >.<...