PDA

View Full Version : Looking for a Fair and Easy loot system.



Liquidska
12-16-2009, 03:55 PM
I am looking for a loot system for my small guild. We primarily run 10 man continent, but are still fairly serious about it. We just arenít prepared to make the time commitment to logistically plan 25ís. In guild I have about a pool of about 15-20 raiders that are geared for raiding. Depending on the night and what we need, 1-2 slots in our 10 mans are up for grabs every week. And while I am glad we are getting new gear, I would rather it go in the hands of some one that shows up each and every single week even if it means getting nothing but a repair bill.

So far we just use the fairly basic system of /roll 1000 main spec, /roll 100 off, with main spec always taking priority. And this has worked out pretty well so far, but in a few cases, some of my core raiders that show up 95% of the time are loosing out to people that show up once a month. We full cleared ICC so far, but in light of new dungeon I am hoping to get a new system so everyone gets the gear they deserve.

I had an eye towards suicide kings, it looks very low frills and easy to maintain. However it does seem to reward NOT showing up to raids so your name just floats to the top, as well as not taking an upgrade you probably need so your name remains high. Both are things I donít want to encourage. As well I was wondering how that actually applies with alts. Almost all of my raiders have at least 1-2 80 altís that are geared for raiding, and depending on what we need for that night they are switched in and out. I am not quite sure how I would want to implement people in to that, I don't want alt's to be totally neglected, but at the same time I sure as hell don't want them to steal gear from mains.

I a bit trepidatious about doing loot council, while I think my officers and I can make fair use of it, I don't want to invite any undue drama that I feel that could bring.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this, a suggestion for another system or a way to work around SK for what I need?

Thanks!

Martie
12-16-2009, 04:03 PM
And this has worked out pretty well so far, but in a few cases, some of my core raiders that show up 95% of the time are loosing out to people that show up once a month.
The people showing up once a month get fewer shots at the gear. Apart from that, it's all in the roll.

What you are saying is that the people showing up less don't deserve the loot. That's not quite true in my opinion. After all, they worked for their loot too, didn't they?

Now, if they were being boosted through the dungeon, or if they are constantly screwing up because they couldn't be bothered to learn the fight, that's different.

Penlowe
12-16-2009, 04:47 PM
Look into EGPG (or is it EPGP? I get fuzzy when it's random letters) and DKP. Both allow for weighting of rolls or point systems that reward attendance.

Mains before alts can be enforced outside of any other loot systems or to go with any/ all systems, it's pretty much a stand alone rule for most guilds.

Now rolling for a spec you aren't playing in this particular run is where it can get hairy. For single role players who might have two DPS/ tank/ healing specs it's generally not a problem. Issues arise for shaman, druids & pallys most often because the different specs have dramatically different needs. For some guilds requiring individuals to pick a 'main' spec works. A very few allocate each spec a different DKP/ point value (as though they were two separate characters) which evens the field on the larger class roles.

Liquidska
12-16-2009, 11:35 PM
I am not saying they don't deserve loot, but when a group grinds out the strageys, suffers the wipes, and shows up consistantly to make a raid happens. That raider should have priority over someone that just joined up for that boss. I know what you mean and by odds alone, showing up to a raid more often should get you the pieces you want, but I think we both know that it doesn't always work out that way.

I thought about approaching EPGP, but it looks like a decent amount of work, although it would be fairly effective. I may do that but I was hoping for a system that had a little less book keeping to it.

orcstar
12-17-2009, 12:29 AM
Fair doesn't exist.

You can solve it with ranks. We have raider, member and tryout rank where a higher rank gives automatic priority on mainspec gear. Offsspec howeveer is kinda free, a tryouts mainspec goes before a raiders offsspec.

This is however for 25 men content. For 10 men we mostly /roll where ofteen people win and are like:nahhh give it to the other.

Tahriel
12-17-2009, 06:19 AM
Suicide Kings - You don't actualy move up the list if you're not at the raid.

E.G

1. Player A
2. Player B
3. Player C
4. Player D
5. Player E

Player D isn't on the raid but everyone else is, Player B recieves some loot so the list will now look like;

1. Player A
2. Player C
3. Player E
4. Player D
5. Player B

You see How Player D isn't rewarded since he didn't come to the raid. He is stil in the same position for loot as he was.

However obviously you still stand in the position of waiting for the trinkets and weapons to drop and trying to get to top of list so you have priority. This problem can also occure in DKP though.

You can have rules to combat this a little such people MUST roll on upgrades, so if you see somebody who needs an item that dropped but isn't rolling for it, you pull them up on it. However you should still allow people to pass items to somebody who needs it more, but they should be seen to be Needing the item first.

/Tahriel.

Liquidska
12-17-2009, 10:18 AM
Oh. That's a very clever twist. I like it. That solves my problem fairly handidly. Although, while I do agree that forcing a person to take an upgrade is a good thing, one player in particular is extremly picky about his loot. Granted it pays off for him and he is the highest deeps by a fair margin, but he tends to pass on a lot of lewt as is. I just wonder how people like him would react to me trying to make them take loot. It's impratical for me to figure out everyone's spec and I will just throw all the plate gear with ArP on it to him.

orcstar
12-17-2009, 11:57 AM
Oh. That's a very clever twist. I like it. That solves my problem fairly handidly. Although, while I do agree that forcing a person to take an upgrade is a good thing, one player in particular is extremly picky about his loot. Granted it pays off for him and he is the highest deeps by a fair margin, but he tends to pass on a lot of lewt as is. I just wonder how people like him would react to me trying to make them take loot. It's impratical for me to figure out everyone's spec and I will just throw all the plate gear with ArP on it to him.
Forcing loot on your highest dee-pee-es is not a very smart idea. He's being picky about loot and it works.

This should be done to players who are passing clear upgrades which hampers their performance just to get imbaweapon or imbatrinket. And underperform in the process.

Satorri
12-17-2009, 12:20 PM
For 10-mans I was generally remiss to use any system, but I had a group of friends and we were happy to see that any drop went to the best home, no one had a problem passing to their teammates.

That said, if you want a simple system, I used this through mid-Ulduar in 25s and I'll explain why we ended up using our version of SK instead.

The idea is simple. The loot master just keeps a piece of paper at hand. Every time gear drops that you want, you roll. The loot master keeps a list of who wins. Whoever has won the least gets the item and the rolls decide the ties.

The system will fairly evenly distribute gear across the people who want things, but leaves the ability in players' hands if they want to not roll on something to make sure they have a shot at something else later. Likewise, if someone wants only one or two things, they won't lose that roll to someone who's gotten 4 other drops already.

The one problem with this system depends on how far you stretch the memory of the system. If you do it only for each raid (which we did) then it has no bias between new or infrequent raiders and regulars (aside from the possibility that the infrequent raiders want and get more loot that the regulars already have). In theory if you stretch out the timeline, that could encompass attendance as well.

If you want you can also break loot into sub-groups. In Naxx, for example, we did one list for non-set epics and one for tier tokens.

SK is pretty simplistic and accomplishes the same thing, though my one issue with SK is that if I am waiting on one major upgrade, and something else that I want and would get an upgrade from drops, if I win that item I lose my chance at the major upgrade. I ended up losing a few drops because I didn't want to lose a shot at the major item (2-handed weapon had to compete with dps for, so lots of competition), and lost the offspec rolls to other people, even though it was a tanking item that I would benefit from.


It's hard for things to be fair, but I think in a broader focus, it's very much in your interest to foster a feeling of team-centric thinking. If people are willing to see gear go where it is best used, even if it is not themselves, it can go a long way beyond just looting. That's a hard thing though if your values emphasize individual performance, as that tends to make people often favor themselves before the team. It's kind of paradoxical.

Reev
12-17-2009, 12:27 PM
We do straight /roll in 10 man, but we use EPGP in 25 man. It's pretty easy to set up and very easy to use. One of the advantages of EPGP over SK in my mind is that if you have a player that is there 99.9% of the raids and a guy who shows up once every 2 months, the high attendance guy can still win 2-3 items before the low attendance guy. Unlike DKP, the system doesn't have to balance, so it's easy to give out EP rewards when people do things you like, like showing up on time. Also, it have built in decay (which you can adjust), so that people who had high priority, then went afk for 6 months, have somewhat lower priority when they come back.

chun
12-17-2009, 10:08 PM
We use Suicide Kings, as a poster earlier mentioned, you only move up in
the list if two conditions are satisfied:
1) Someone higher than you (closer to position 1) bids and wins the item
2) You are in the raid

As for alts, we have alts and mains use the same spot in the list, while this
can reward alts over other mains, it's your choice as raid organizer who
you are inviting in to the raid. Additionally, the onus is on the players to
understand which gear will benefit not only them, but also the raid in general.

The one big deficiency (in my mind) that Suicide Kings has, is that you
are only rewarded if loot drops. You may spend hours working/wiping
on new content without downing a boss, and those that worked on the
content get no reward (from the system). Whereas a DKP or other system
may choose to award some points based on "time spent".

Hope this helps!

Onyxstar
12-18-2009, 02:26 PM
I'd go with either SK or EPGP. I've used both. Our current system is EPGP in 25 mans. I am familiar with SK from vanilla wow. If either system is implemented and tuned to your guild, they are both very fair. If you are trying to encourage attendance/consistency/reward people for their effort, it's the way to go.

Liquidska
12-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Now I did a bit more reasearch, and while SK does seem to be a pretty solid system and still something I am intersted in. I found what appears to be an relavitvly older system called Ni Karma (http://www.wowwiki.com/Ni_Karma)

It looks fairly simple. I was going to use a modifed version of what appears on wowwiki. (It looks like that is a base 100 for main set)

Good Karma

Everyone starts with 0 Karma. You accumlate karma acording to the following chart.

+50 karma for showing up for raid on-time ready to go.
+50 karma at the end of the run
+25 karma for replacing a dropped out member
+25 karma per boss kill (Will only apply in ICC)
+50 karma for wiping an extended amount of time on a new boss fight (Officers discretion)
+50 karma for "Helping guild as a whole" (Officers descreation)
-25 karma for delaying raid, (being AFK for extended amount of time)

When an item drops, you declare if you are using karma or not. If not, then roll /1000 as normal. If you are, you roll and add your Karma score as a bonus. If you win, you recive the item and your karma is cut in half. You are encouraged to use your karma early and often, the longer you wait the bigger karma loss you take.

No karma cap, horde as much karma as you like.

If ever asked to come on an alt by raid leader, the Karma can be applied to your main raider or your alt. You can only use karma when you are currently on that charcter. Karma can be transfered to an alt, but at 1/2 value.

You are not forced to spend Karma, spend it on the items you want.

Karma can not be used for offspec. Can not spend more then 500 at any one time.



Thoughts? I haven't approached my guild about this, but it seems very flexible.

Insahnity
12-18-2009, 03:52 PM
How is this significantly different than most DKP systems?

Liquidska
12-18-2009, 04:27 PM
As I understand it, a raider with DKP versus one with out DKP will always get loot. In this, a total lowbie can walk in to a raid and still get loots if he rolls high enough. I like the element of randomness, while at the same time encouraging peopel to roll on each and every upgrade for themselves with out requiring them to blow all their karma.

Garrek
12-18-2009, 04:41 PM
The loot system you use has to be tailored to what your raid group is focused on as well.

If you're looking at raids in terms of encounter progression, loot isn't a reward. Really. It's not. It's a tool to be utilized in order to best improve the raid as a whole for the next challenge(s) you face. A strict analog of this would be to use a loot council system and selectively pick and choose where gear needs to go in order to best suit the *raid*. Give that IMBA high end weapon to your dpser that will benefit from it the most (weighted by likely subsequent attendance... not past attendance) so that you get a 100 DPS increase instead of the 40 DPS increase had you given it to the guy that "deserved" it.

<enter drama/>

Once you start looking at the loot itself as a reward for raiding you're going to have to make a few hard decisions and create a little drama in the short term in order to stave off drama in the long term. The best thing you can do to keep a focus on progression while still trying to be as fair as possible to your raiders are the following (regardless of your loot system):

1. Limit your pool of raiders so that you only have a handful of 'extra' folks to fill spots in and rotate folks week by week.

2. Design your raid group with a relatively equal smattering of gear types.

Having 20 people trying to fit in 10 spots, regardless of how available any of them is, means that you're diluting your raid's gearing needs. If you end up focusing too much on just a handful of the folks, many of the others will get behind to the point that when they come you begin wiping (or at least having trouble) on bosses you previously thought farmable. Mind you this doesn't necessarily mean you have to boot folks out of the guild, but using a rank system like orcstar suggested is an alternative.

Similarly if you've got 2 plate tanks and 18 clothie heals/dps it's going to take all the more time to get those clothies geared up while you're simultaneously sharding mail and leather gear like crazy. That's an extreme example, but I'm sure you get the drift.

If you don't have the balls to address those issues it really won't matter what loot system you choose because ultimately it isn't going to be truly *raid* focused. If you're designing the whole thing just to appease as many folks as possible you'll progress slower and you'll have to deal with inevitable drama regarding one person's worthiness to get loot or another person's inability to ever get invited to raids. If you manage not to then your guild is chock full of saints and I want to steal a few from ya.

Addendum: Personal opinion is that if you're running 10s just /roll. You'll occasionally end up having a newbie or infrequent raider come in and rack up or even 'steal' loot from your veterans, but there's always next week right? If you cleared it once you should be able to do so again and it doesn't take very long at all to gear up even 20 folks if you're able to reliably clear 10s content. Your veterans may just have to be content with waiting a few more weeks before getting their IMBA weapon of awesomesauce.

Freemun
12-21-2009, 08:51 PM
We had to make exactly the same decision as you a few weeks ago.

We decided that DKP, EPGP and the variety of other points-based systems weren't reliable because they cant exercise any logic. Some people simply wont deserve an item - but will win it because they've taken less loot than someone who completely deserves it.

I'd strongly advise you to reconsider loot council. That way you're completely in control. On the drama front, we laid down clear rules regarding loot and haven't had a single complaint about it yet.

We use a DKP system to track attendance and how many items the person has already had from us to make sure things dont get out of preportion. After that - common sense. Something a points based system will never fully master.

Proletaria
12-30-2009, 10:39 PM
Every system is just as terrible as the next one in the right situation. They key is to find a system YOUR guild can deal with, and monitor it well enough to make sure that loop-hole (or loopholes) is not being abused by your guild members.

Personally we do rolls in 10man, and a strait dkp system for 25. We've found the more lassiez fair we are about dkp, the better things work out. When we find an abuser, it's usually obvious and we can take them aside or remove them if need be.

-Dkp per kill
-Open bid
-no 'officer discretion' bonuses
-BUT, officers may dock dkp if abuse is noticed

At various points we fooled with adding rank, soft-caps, bonuses, etc. to the system, but it always ended up causing more trouble than it was worth. IMO it is a lot easier to use a very simple system and make it WELL known to your members that abuse of the system is going to get them removed from the guild. So long as you don't have a roster full of loot-hounds, you'll do just fine.

Xianth
12-31-2009, 07:18 AM
It depends on who you are raiding with. In 10 man (ie. all the content we do) we just use a common sense method but we are all mature enough and know each other well enough to allow this to work.

Proletaria
12-31-2009, 11:50 AM
It depends on who you are raiding with. In 10 man (ie. all the content we do) we just use a common sense method but we are all mature enough and know each other well enough to allow this to work.

I think on a small scale like that, community decided loot is most often the best choice. It just gets too conspiratory when you add a few more players and the level of trust drops significantly. Thus you have more elaborate systems in 25man paradigms.

My 10man team randoms, but we do know each other well enough to pass on a roll if it's clearly more beneficial to another player (or if someone feels they're already recieved a lot of loot that night or raid week).

Bovinity
01-02-2010, 08:45 AM
There's no perfect loot system, honestly. Every system is going to have flaws and some pieces of loot are going to get distributed in ways that not everyone will agree with. That's just the way it is.

Personally, I like DKP systems. I find them to be a reasonably fair way of ensuring that people who show up the most and perform consistantly get the tools they need to benefit the raid without being able to just hoard everything and discouraging everyone else.

Warsreign
01-06-2010, 06:35 AM
I'd have to agree with EPGP. Simply put it is the fairest system out there that accomidates many factors. But like it's said before all systems have their flaws and there is no way to avoid all the set backs from any system. This thing with EPGP is the set back is "the boss just wont drop tank gear" so tanks raid priority faster for instance. But here are some points.

1. Those that show up earn EP (effort points) from every raid showing the effort they put forth in the group to get you to whatever point your at.
2. GP (Gear Points) get counted against an individual to insure that no one person can horde all the loot and it gets spread around (this ofcourse all depends on what the bosses drop)
3. Those that show up on a casual basis will still eventually rise to the top of the list even without as much effort if you want to accomidate them.
4. Decay you can set up once a week or whatever you decide will insure that eventually anyone who quits showing up or only shows up for the bosses they want can't horde onto their points and be automatically given a rare drop that someone else worked hard to get.
5. New individuals who come into your guild will not find themselves at a never ending Peak of DKP to over come because someone was in the guild longer then them. Because gear recieved is divided by the Effort put into the raids eventually someone who has recieved a lot will get droped down in priority to allow other raid members a shot at a particular item.
6. The list goes on and on

Over all the EPGP system has automatic numbers generated based on rarity of items that drop off of bosses and the importants of that particular piece of gear to a players equipment. By using the built in system for priority it will insure that a person of equal standing if person A gets a belt out of TOC for instant and person B gets on out of ICC (both 10 or 25 mans) then Person A would be at the top of the list to get the next piece over person B given B gained a higher items/stat piece then person A.

There is a ton of referance materials on this out there or if you'd like to chat with someone about this system who uses it I'd be happy to converse with you anytime. Feel free to hit me up on here or prevail.ysera@gmail.com


Edit - One last thing to add is that with EPGP over some other systems it takes the personnel opinion out of the equation. Which I think we all can agree that we're all guilty at times to personnel opinion on deserving to gear distribution and other things. Even in a council system we can't all see or remember everything a persons done in a raid group to help get you where you are and on top of that many times people seem to go with the flow instead of being honest to avoid confict. If one person says A deserves over B then a lot of times just to avoid conflict they'll just agree and move on. Or if one person just don't like someone you again run into the problem.

Bodasafa
01-06-2010, 01:51 PM
Ive used SKG and DKP. There are a bunch of loot systems and variations of them to choose from but the short answer is all of them have problems. There is no real "fair" system out there. Loot Council is probably the closest but also has the highest chance for drama.

The goal is to make it as simple and straight forward as possible. Have it posted on your guilds website in clear and easy to understand terms that way there is no confusion on how it works.

Over the years of raid leading and being an officer I have found the following 3 things to be the core of a good loot system no matter which one you use:

- Attendance
It must be accounted for somehow. Your goal is to gear the raiders who attend the most and you foresee continuing that trend. That way the gear goes to active raiders who in turn progress the guild at a faster rate.

- Ranks with a loot priority
Its is generally a good idea. For example ours has:


GM
AGM
Officer
Raider
Member
Casual
Applicant


Anyone Raider through GM has the same loot priority, which is the highest. Next are Members then Applicants. Casuals are last and generally not invited to raids.

- Decay
This is for raiders who were attending, but no longer are and have accumulated a high position or a high amount of points in any from. This way they cannot just jump back in and start taking items after an extended leave (like a month or more). Decay also prevents hoarding or position perching.

Beyond those 3 you can add in all sorts of other stuff to tailor it to your guild.

Elahrairah
01-06-2010, 07:33 PM
The people showing up once a month get fewer shots at the gear. Apart from that, it's all in the roll.

What you are saying is that the people showing up less don't deserve the loot. That's not quite true in my opinion. After all, they worked for their loot too, didn't they?

Now, if they were being boosted through the dungeon, or if they are constantly screwing up because they couldn't be bothered to learn the fight, that's different.
I disagree. A raiding guild is a team, and your main priority is progression, and playing as a group. Rewarding unstable members doesn't do as much for the group as a whole, since you'll have a harder time progressing and meeting the gear requirements for the next level of difficulty when they don't show up, and the person who could've been upgraded did.
In a guild, you can't really think fair or unfair based on the individual as much as you would in other groups.

Simply put, the more gear you give to someone, the more importance they'll end up having in a raid group. You don't really want to give that sort of responsibility to flaky individuals.

You can't have people getting something for nothing. A raiding guild is -not- a PuG. You're a team, and you'll only move forward to do the hardest content as a team.

Salloman
01-07-2010, 05:08 PM
EPGP Wins in most situations hands down!!! As for Booking keeping, it is very minimal with Add-ons and is less troublesome than your current system.

TWO ADDONS:

EPGP RELOADED- other than inital setup it is a self maintained addon only the Officers and Raid leaders need it.

EPGPLOOTMASTER - All raiders/Raiding Members need to download it, It provides a pop-up for people to select need/Greed/pass. Gives you a table, in order of PR and the item can then be loot counciled if you like as it will also display currently equipped items. Random roll is also simulated. You can adjust GP values or distribute to enchanter to DE. Hands down the best addon, which makes our loot distribution as fast as the build-in WOW interface roll system.

Only short fall is Pugging a few raiders to fill the raid, can be overcome but does complicate the simple loot distribution.

Hope that helps!