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View Full Version : Death Knight Those of you DKs not taking RT/IRT



Nitrous
12-15-2009, 09:56 AM
I personally run my spec with RT/IRT because I like the extra little "health stone" if you will. I know alot of DKs say that your healers should be healing you, but every top DK Tank I can find, uses RT/IRT.

Personally if I was to take those 4 points out, I'd dump them in Necrosis for extra threat, but what do you guys say?

I probably won't change my spec because it currently works for me, but I'm always looking for tips/tricks to see if something could work better.

derangedhermit
12-15-2009, 09:59 AM
Satorri's talks about stuff like this on his new 'guide' in this exact forum. I suggest that you go read it.

Inaara
12-15-2009, 10:00 AM
You should definitely put a point into shockwave.

Satorri
12-15-2009, 10:16 AM
amg, I LOVE shockwave.



Here's where I'd put those points:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/54331-satorris-big-build-shop-blood-tanking.html
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/59900-comprehensive-guide-death-knight-tanking.html

Chamenas
12-15-2009, 10:17 AM
Only on my Blood Tank, because that's how Blood Tanks work. Doing it for Frost Spec means you're sacrificing valuable threat tools.

vine
12-15-2009, 10:42 AM
Whether you take it depends entirely on the content you are doing, and how much you trust your healers.

Normal modes and farm content I never touch RT, but on the fun progression night wipe-a-thons I watch my runes carefully to manage my DS and RT.

Personally I love RT and the dps is never on my heels for threat, so I don't mind putting the four points into it for more survivability.

Sterbefall
12-15-2009, 11:35 AM
Honestly, 4 points is a huge investment. I'm usually far too distracted maintaining good threat, watching adds, moving out of fire, and being ready to interrupt to even begin thinking about watching my health and having a blood rune ready to go to heal.

My healers invest nearly all their time watching my health bar ready to pop a heal. I really don't see how I could be any better with an every once in a while heal. It really comes back to 4 points though.

Which top DK tanks are you talking about?

Satorri
12-15-2009, 01:32 PM
Personally, rather than dropping Rune Tap, we drop a healer or two for content where I just don't require as much healing. =)

Nice steps up in dps, adding more damage dealers, ya know.

Ulosthegame
12-15-2009, 01:42 PM
I like Rune Tap as "just in case" sort of thing. normally it's not an issue- but what a healer gets hit by Bone spikes and someone else can't get to you in time... BUT WAIT! you've got Rune Tap and can use it push yourself up enough to not die on the next hit! I only use it if it looks like something good go bad and if I feel myself getting really low and sitting there for a while before a heal.
My guild normally runs with one or two heals- three on certain fights in ICC ( cough DBS cough).

Edgewalker
12-15-2009, 03:26 PM
Most "top" DK tanks don't take it, and you will see a lot more people switch to Frost specs as armor gear is accumulated.
I don't take it myself because in every situation where I would die, I am stunned, incapacitated, or the burst comes before a global would reset. If I did heroics or 10 mans were progression for me, I would definitely use it. The less bosses hit for, the more valuable it becomes.

Ciruss
12-15-2009, 03:40 PM
Most "top" DK tanks don't take it, and you will see a lot more people switch to Frost specs as armor gear is accumulated.
I don't take it myself because in every situation where I would die, I am stunned, incapacitated, or the burst comes before a global would reset. If I did heroics or 10 mans were progression for me, I would definitely use it. The less bosses hit for, the more valuable it becomes.True. Most of my guild DK tanks do not use it since there either dieing during a stun, or very high burst dmg from the boss. They don't have time to use it then.

Darthwader
12-15-2009, 08:20 PM
talents depends on guild content, i don't use it too, i don't use mark of blood either, i build my spec to do good threat, since i have tons of survival just from gear

armory : The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Grim+Batol&cn=Darthwader&gn=mahna+mahna)

Chamenas
12-16-2009, 12:27 AM
I actually don't find Rune Tap to be a very good clutch tool at all. There are times in which I use it as such and it works wonderfully, but that's not why I take it. Rune Tap is taken, by me, for Blood spec, because it's part of how a Blood Tank works in my opinion. The mitigation for Blood Tanks comes from a reactive response in healing much of the damage they take in. Death Strike is nice, Vampiric Blood is nice, but Rune Tap is also added to those and it should be used as often as possible without wasting it on overheals. It lightens the stress on your healers by putting you on par with the damage on you that they should be healing had you had your healing as mitigation instead.

Feanorr
12-16-2009, 03:28 AM
People seem to forget something about RT regarding threat: it may not be as good as 4 points in necrosis or wherever but it's not 0 threat either. If you use regularly and it heal you for full it's a good amount of threat.

At least it's not a lost to use a rune on it, regarding threat; as long as you are not full health and it's not an AOE situation.

Vlad
12-16-2009, 03:37 AM
I smell crack smoke in this thread..

If you need RT to stay alive gkick some healers and get better ones >.>
Personally if things get that bad that I need to top up beyond a DS, VB+DP..

Acidbaron
12-16-2009, 06:21 AM
I personally dropped the talent since i stopped leveling i always saw it more as a solo tool and then an optional one aswell.

I never had the need for it and i believe it's more personal play style then anything else.

I can see it's purpose as a raid heal tool however but then it's more of a ninche for certain fights then a must have still in my eyes, such as anub'arak heroic.

I find mark of blood, vampiric and IBF to be enough.

Satorri
12-16-2009, 06:57 AM
If you need RT to stay alive gkick some healers and get better ones >.>


Old and ignorant argument.

It's never a matter of need, but a matter of survival value you can offer.

If your health drops, as it always does, the tank who can instantly restore a third of their health will save their healers work, often remove the risk of a sudden dip-gib, and generally appear less squishy.


Not everyone chooses to gear, spec, or use all the tools available to survive better, some people would rather focus on threat and leave the survival to their healers.

It's a choice, but there isn't a right one and a wrong one.

So long as you are holding threat off your team and not capping their dps with your threat, you're doing enough threat.

So long as you're living through the fight, you clearly have enough survival value.

What you buff after that is your call and really it's just a matter of how you're trying to support your team.

tribute
12-16-2009, 07:59 AM
I get Satorri's point, although I'm not a fan of RT either.

But this:
Death Strike is nice, Vampiric Blood is nice, but Rune Tap is also added to those and it should be used as often as possible without wasting it on overheals. It lightens the stress on your healers by putting you on par with the damage on you that they should be healing had you had your healing as mitigation instead.

Is not true.

RT is for emergencies and not to pop it when it is off it's cd...that won't reduce overheal and won't increase your survivability.

Maybe in a fight with really really massive group damage, if your healer needs to heal group as well...but can't really imagine that situation...

Theotherone
12-16-2009, 08:09 AM
If I want to rely solely on my healers, I'll tank in Frost, why bother with Blood? Isn't the whole point of Blood the self healing?

Satorri
12-16-2009, 08:35 AM
^^

=) Unless you like Blood's threat style, which many people do.

Theotherone
12-16-2009, 08:44 AM
^^

=) Unless you like Blood's threat style, which many people do.

Yeah, good point. Sometimes we forget we play the game to have fun; I dual wield now not because it's better, but because it's fun.

Satorri
12-16-2009, 08:50 AM
Fun?! There's no place for fun! This is a game dammit! Games are for winning!

Seriously though, that's a big part of why I have been Blood this long. When they fixed some pretty big holes in tanking as Blood for 3.1 I decided to give it a go. It really just appeals to my personal tastes.

Before they added ToT and flipped the talents around, Frost tanking always felt a little blah because I felt like I needed to lose certain play style elements, or not use them well in a tank spec. I loved dpsing as dual wield frost (even before the talents actually supported it). Now it feels pretty great, to Blizz's credit.

Theotherone
12-16-2009, 09:27 AM
I've mentioned before that I've now dual tank spec'd as Frost and Blood. I started as Frost so I'm the most used to it, but I have to say Blood is fun - I love watching my health rocket up when I pop VB. I'll use Blood for Gormak or the Twins or if the healer is weak. However, I feel like I can take more of beating in Frost.

The only issue with Dual wield getting the expertise up. Now part of this is my own fault, since I upgraded (in some respects) Boundless Ambition and the Goulslicer, but all in all ti's been fine.

Pylae
12-16-2009, 09:50 AM
Whether or not rune tap is good for you is really a function of your guild. Are you in a hardcore guild with many of the same players each night, and always 2-3 hunters? Well then 4 talent points for threat just isn't a big deal.

Are you in a more casual guild that frequently has PUG healers? Improved Rune Tap would make more sense.

Sterbefall
12-16-2009, 11:10 AM
The point of blood isn't really the self healing. It's a nice side benefit, but the real point (and Satorri disagrees with me on at least one of these points):
1. Best EH because of VotTW.
2. Vampiric Blood is arguably the best tank cooldown in all three trees (UA might make a comeback if this heavy melee damage trend continues). WotN is also excellent for taking big hits in progression content.
3. Superior ST threat (DW frost might take this title now, but with the lack of WoW logging analysis site with TPS correctly coded in, it's hard to know).

Edgewalker
12-16-2009, 02:22 PM
If I want to rely solely on my healers, I'll tank in Frost, why bother with Blood? Isn't the whole point of Blood the self healing?

Plenty of self healing in a normal DS rotation with Mark of Blood. Not to mention it's the highest single target threat spec, has the cleanest rotation, and has the best overall cooldown and highest stamina pool.

There are arguments for an against it, but the unarguable point remains that it is a situational talent, whereas some talents are always useful.

vine
12-16-2009, 05:35 PM
The point of blood isn't really the self healing
Actually that is the point of Blood spec, which is why it has so many self healing talents.

Wars
12-16-2009, 05:46 PM
3. Superior ST threat (DW frost might take this title now, but with the lack of WoW logging analysis site with TPS correctly coded in, it's hard to know).

Bit off topic here but with the 178 dps weapons on my dk tank, I'm rocking a steady 6k TPS+ when I have a chance to have a rotation, with much higher spikes.

With the ICC25 weapons, wow, the oblits would be out of control.

Though I think any dk tank with a 290dps 2hander is going to be tough to beat.

I'll throw a parse out when we do our alt-25man ICC tonight and I tank it up with her. Not in this thread since it's not the focus, but I'll post it. Also I'll look through worldoflogs from the same fights of dk tanks who are clearly 2h spec(blood/uh).

Halgreg
12-16-2009, 05:47 PM
Self healing while tanking is the main reason I'm DK and probably won't change to any other tank. RT/IRT, Death Strike, Mark of Blood, Vampiric Blood...I want it all!!

Chamenas
12-16-2009, 05:54 PM
Actually that is the point of Blood spec, which is why it has so many self healing talents.

The point of Blood is going to be seen as different by many different people. However, I would argue that the point of Blood is going to fall into two different things: Survival and/or Threat. You go Blood (other than for just having fun) because you feel it has better Survival or you feel it has better Threat. The self-healing is part of the Survival, but it's not why everyone goes for it.

In 3.2 I went Blood because my 2-hand Frost spec simply wasn't pulling the threat needed. I went Blood because of Threat. To me, the self-healing was just part of Blood's survivability. Instead of heavy mitigation, I had heavy self-healing. It wasn't the point of Blood spec. There really is no single point. No spec in the DK talent pool is that one-dimensional, thankfully.

Wars
12-16-2009, 05:56 PM
I think the "point" system of classification here is too vague.

From now on we are going to say that the "expected usefulness" of a blood is to be both Maximum EH, and self-healing along with great single-target threat. There, done.

You don't see it that way? I'm sorry, get off your high horse and look at both sides of the coin, it's not about your opinion, it's about the collective opinion.

Chamenas
12-16-2009, 06:05 PM
Eh, it's just different terminology. I would term it the "method of Survival" of Blood is self-healing (Maximum health pools affects that, though I wouldn't say it's maximum EH because it doesn't effectively give more proactive mitigation). And the "method of Threat" is maximizing two-handed weapon of DPS.

We can toss around different terms all we want, but that avoids what I was actually looking at. And that's that many people don't look at taking a certain spec for one thing, and those that do don't always do it for the same reasons. Which is also why method probably works best here.

I could say the expected usefulness of Blood, for me, was its increase in threat, its method of dealing with damage was not what I expected to be useful. Or I could say that the method of Threat in Blood, in 3.2 was superior to that of Frost and so I took it. I also took with it the method of Survival, whether or not I took it for that reason or whether or not that was the expected outcome.

Wars
12-16-2009, 06:12 PM
I think the terminology is going to skew people coming into this thread and having their own say.

We need to use all-encompassing terms such that there are no "contrary thoughts on partial ideals."

The reason being, the fact that you picked it for threat, does not mean it didn't come with the survivability. That should be recognized in all posts, in all perspectives, since it does come with the package, and should!

If you pick DW Frost(as I have) you're doing some flavor but it's expected usefulness is the high threat in both ST and AOE, along with the best passive mitigation to both magic/physical damage you can get in the dk trees.

This is off topic though and trying to uniformly determine terminology is only going to increase the off topicness of the posts, I completely concede!

Vlad
12-16-2009, 08:59 PM
Old and ignorant argument.

It's never a matter of need, but a matter of survival value you can offer.

If your health drops, as it always does, the tank who can instantly restore a third of their health will save their healers work, often remove the risk of a sudden dip-gib, and generally appear less squishy.


Not everyone chooses to gear, spec, or use all the tools available to survive better, some people would rather focus on threat and leave the survival to their healers.

It's a choice, but there isn't a right one and a wrong one.

So long as you are holding threat off your team and not capping their dps with your threat, you're doing enough threat.

So long as you're living through the fight, you clearly have enough survival value.

What you buff after that is your call and really it's just a matter of how you're trying to support your team.

Flippant maybe, ignorant no.. I'm a healer too so I do understand this.
My point is if RT is making the difference between success and failure you need to sort out your healers.


RT 20% health 1 min CD 4 talents
DP 40% health 2 min CD 0 talents
If you need more than #2, #1 won't save you.

Wars
12-16-2009, 09:04 PM
Nothing here determines alone whether you live or die. They either contribute to winning, or they contribute to losing. That's it.

Nothing ever happens where it is the sole proponent of you dying.

You can never fully predict what will happen in an encounter that rolls a dice, only in retrospect can you see what happened and try to plan for it next time. Even such, something else might happen next time and you can't plan for everything that can lead to a death.

Healer get's MC'd and you IRT, you might survive due to IRT.

Healer get's MC'd and you don't have IRT but you have a HS still, you might survive due to the HS.

Healer get's MC'd and you don't have IRT or an HS, but another healer notices and comes over, you live due to awareness.

Come on, there are literally thousands upon thousands of things that could happen.

Nothing ever is completely just one thing here.

The point is the same argument people take blood draining(it can help, though nothing "saves" you completely and not having it just contributes to less things possibly saving you).

Sterbefall
12-16-2009, 09:53 PM
Let's look at Blood as a progression tank. By and large, the tanks in the leading guilds don't take IRT. MoB wasn't even a popular choice (more so now because of faster, smaller hits). That leaves... Improved Death Strike.

We don't take Vendetta, Bloodworms, or IBP. VB gives us +heal, but doesn't make us heal ourselves.

Edgewalker
12-16-2009, 11:11 PM
The only reason I give MoB a nod in my spec is it's ability to matter in a stun situation.

vine
12-17-2009, 12:25 AM
RT 20% health 1 min CD 4 talents
DP 40% health 2 min CD 0 talents

If you need more than #2, #1 won't save you.
DP is effectively 3minutes seeing as Raise Dead (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=46584) is on a 3min CD. Also DP requires two GCD's (most tanks tend not to start the fight with a ghoul). BT is off the GCD.


I think the "point" system of classification here is too vague.

From now on we are going to say that the "expected usefulness" of a blood is to be both Maximum EH, and self-healing along with great single-target threat. There, done.

You don't see it that way? I'm sorry, get off your high horse and look at both sides of the coin, it's not about your opinion, it's about the collective opinion.
Oh the irony in that statement.

TheYanger
12-17-2009, 06:09 AM
Shrug. I've had Rune Tap in the past (Like Naxx/heroic level) and ultimately it's a bit hard to swallow at a 4 talent point investment. I can almost never think of a time in a raid where it would've saved me, it's not a huge amount of healing, and as mean or cliche as it is, your healers ARE fully capable of keeping you up without it. Cooldowns are great and necessary, but as a blood DK you already have multiple strong ones (IBF, VB, Trinkets, AMS [works to save you on a great deal of fights])...VB is up often enough that it's usually enough even if your healers are slow, or if the damage is predictible you can sit on your FU runes for death strikes like Vezax or Fusion punches or whatnot.

Blood IS a 'self healing' style tank, but you already have the tools available to do this without burning such a large amount of talents. Now, all of that said...the way the talents in the blood tree are set up you can easily drop subversion and a bit of SoB or something for it if you really want to, but I think most of the time when people hit it and think they just saved the raid it's probably just an itchy trigger finger - your healers are watching your health just as closely and aching for the chance to show you they can keep you alive :) Put some faith in em if at all possible.

Vah
12-17-2009, 06:58 AM
Let's look at Blood as a progression tank. By and large, the tanks in the leading guilds don't take IRT. MoB wasn't even a popular choice (more so now because of faster, smaller hits). That leaves... Improved Death Strike.

We don't take Vendetta, Bloodworms, or IBP. VB gives us +heal, but doesn't make us heal ourselves.



Everyone should keep in mind Blood tanking is completely situational to both your raiding environment and your playstyle. If you have weak threat, you can pick up Subversion, or Sudden Doom, or even Necrosis. Personally, i run anywhere from 7.5k to 10k TPS on a single-target boss, without any of those talents. My guild uses 1 resto druid, and typically 1 priest, so the extra RP isn't always there from Revitalization, so i'll use a point in Scent of Blood to maintain constant Rune strikes.

I personally will use Rune Tap for progression. (Top 20 World guild) I even glyph for it, allowing me to heal myself from anywhere from 15k to 25k for a single blood rune. The threat from Glyph of Death Strike isn't even needed. My guild typically runs light on healers (to attempt to top world DPS marks) and this has saved me in a few situations.

The ability to CHOOSE your talents, understanding your abilities and properly executing is what seperates world class tanks from mediocre, not what the 'average joe' DK tank says on the forums.

Satorri
12-17-2009, 08:20 AM
The ability to CHOOSE your talents, understanding your abilities and properly executing is what seperates world class tanks from mediocre, not what anyone says on the forums.

Simple point of fact. Rune Tap can be used well, as can a dozen other tools the DK has available.

You do not have to use them all to succeed.

You do not have to use them well to succeed.

You do not have to be the best tank or in the best guild in the world to play the game well.


At the end of the day, the tanks I will trust are the ones who know why they're making the gear/spec/gem/chant/style choices they do.

Edgewalker
12-17-2009, 10:18 AM
I'm curious if people taking IRT are also taking MoB.
I've found it to be a pretty good 1 point investment, especially considering it's use on every form of incoming damage.

Vah
12-17-2009, 02:49 PM
I'm curious if people taking IRT are also taking MoB.
I've found it to be a pretty good 1 point investment, especially considering it's use on every form of incoming damage.


The only thing i don't like about it is it applies to AoE damage done by the boss. An example would be Anub p3, its instantly consumed.

Edgewalker
12-17-2009, 02:56 PM
The only thing i don't like about it is it applies to AoE damage done by the boss. An example would be Anub p3, its instantly consumed.

Yea, that's something I don't like. I'm waiting on the boss that does 100% over 5 seconds or something to that effect so it can have some AoE use.

Also, Cairne's Endurance finally dropped but I passed it to another tank with a worse cloak. We were so close to being super twins :(

Satorri
12-18-2009, 06:26 AM
There are situations where the fact that it applies to AoE can be handy. =)

In everything there are benefits and drawbacks.

Vah
12-18-2009, 07:25 AM
Yea, that's something I don't like. I'm waiting on the boss that does 100% over 5 seconds or something to that effect so it can have some AoE use.

Also, Cairne's Endurance finally dropped but I passed it to another tank with a worse cloak. We were so close to being super twins :(


Grats on the sword btw, there's only 2 upgrades so far to it in ICC, one of which is a legendary. :p

Edgewalker
12-18-2009, 09:00 AM
Grats on the sword btw, there's only 2 upgrades so far to it in ICC, one of which is a legendary. :p

2/25 Primordial Saronites! Wheeee.

Vlad
12-19-2009, 02:57 AM
There are situations where the fact that it applies to AoE can be handy. =)

In everything there are benefits and drawbacks.

Hah this is true, I used to use it on XT hard, it was like having a weak Hymn :)