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EmPuLSe
12-15-2009, 08:02 AM
I'm hoping someone valiantly steps up and helps me out here. We have a warrior tank in our fairly accomplished 10 man guild that I am at odds with. . . . I play a feral tank, so I know plenty about tanking. . . enough to know that he is doing things wrong. I just don't know enough about Warrior to really help him.

Here is a link to his armory: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightninghoof&n=Warmeister)

The gear is the gear. He has only been back playing for about a month, and is working on getting it up where it should be. The real problem for me is his gem choices and his enchants. Raid buffed he is only at 39k. . . in caster form (Feral druid) I have that much. . . So I know something is wrong there. He is also absolutely sure (heh) that he needs to be at the hit cap, otherwise his threat will suck.

Currently, his threat is awesome. He pulls down a pretty steady 7500 tps, which is great. But I hold steady that a dead tank does 0 tps. I cant imagine dropping a bunch of +hit for +stam would have that big of an effect on his performance.

Can someone just verify for me that after the non-crit cap (its like 580 def, right?) that he needs to stack Stam for heroics/hardmodes/progression? And maybe give me an idea of what enchants he should be replacing.

Thanks so much for your time!

~ Kharisma

MellvarTank
12-15-2009, 08:06 AM
The defense cap is 540.

Stam Czar will arrive shortly. :D

Reev
12-15-2009, 08:08 AM
After crit immunity, which is 540 defense, he should be stacking stamina, yes. Hit is nice, but it's not really required if you have a good threat rotation, and it sounds like he does.

Your warrior isn't hit capped anyway (and doesn't need to be). He is way way over what he needs for Expertise, which should only be 26. Up until that 26, expertise is better than hit for threat. There is no reason why he should be gemming for defense either. He seems to be trying too hard on the avoidance front when he should be going for more stamina. This is true of his trinkets as well. He should try to get some stamina trinkets to put in there, such as Jugg's Vitality/Satrina's Scarab, or The Black Heart, or whatever else.

Rominoodle
12-15-2009, 08:14 AM
While hit rating is important, expertise is far more superior. The defense CAP is in fact 540 so he is way over that. He could use to upgrade his 24 stam gems to 30 and get rid of the defense rating gems. Keep in mind though he is also not using any stam trinkets. A tank gets anywhere for 220 to 400 stam from trinkets of the like, which will really up his health. For heroics and such, avoidance is fantasmic but as far as progression content, he needs to be able to withstand the big hits.

Ghostscript
12-15-2009, 08:17 AM
His gear looks ok to me. He COULD switch some of his gems to 30 stam, namely the gems in his gloves, belt and pants. They could all be 30 stam and he would be fine. Have him pick up the Triumph pants when he gets enough emblems too.

I usually run around 140 hit and am fine for threat. Expertise however is a biggie, but he seems to have plenty (26-27 is the soft cap for dodges). One should only gem for expertise and hit if threat is an issue, aka the dps is consistently pulling off him.

As for the def "cap" its 535 for heroics and 540 for raids. Resilience can also be factored into that (like the 30 stam 15 resil shoulder enchant). You just have to hit 5.4% uncrittable.

Really he could use a stam trinket, like The Black Heart out of H ToC and the Glyph of Indomitability (armor trinket from triumph emblems)

His gear is fine for everything up to TotC 10. I wouldn't want to take him into ICC with that HP though.

~Hope this helps!~

MellvarTank
12-15-2009, 08:20 AM
The Black Heart drops in reg ToC 5.

orlastud
12-15-2009, 08:22 AM
first things first, if he is serious, he needs to get rid of the blue quality gems, replacing them with epic ones. Next, he needs to drop all the + def gems, as he is already over the cap. Honestly though, a tank doesn't need to worry to much about hit cap as a dps. I know there will be some who disagree with me, but id rather be able to take a hit instead of putting out a little more threat. His glove enchant could be replaced by armsman(2% more threat +10 parry rating)

Also it looks like he worries to much about mediocre socket bonuses and hence why he is geming with some of the +def and hit.

He also needs a weapon enchant if you didnt know that already (blade ward, blood draining or mongoose tend to the go to choices)

Honestly, what he needs to do is just shell out the cash for a few gem upgrades and he'll be good

Squirrelnut
12-15-2009, 08:48 AM
Nice short answer: Your Warrior is an idiot; use a good rotation, gem stam & glyph taunt.

Long version, reasoning behind that statement


Prior to ICC there was virtually 0 hit itemization on ToC gear upgrades, thus it was advised to ignore hit and max out other stats. At this point threat should be a non-issue for any decent Prot Warrior that is over the soft cap for expertise (26). For tank swaps utilize the taunt glyph (replacing vigilance or heroic strike) so that you don't have to worry about missing taunts.
He is gemming hit which is a TERRIBLE choice for any kind of progression. Stam is the way to go 99% of the time unless using a different gem to fill a meta requirement or for a really nice socket bonus (not counting a block set).
He has 565 defense and is gemming defense? wtf, 540 is the minimum which he is well over.
Shoulder enchant 15 def? Replace that with the hodir rep enchant of 20 dodge & 15 defense or 30stam/15resil from honor
Replace all non-epic gems with 30 stam
Replace 22 agility enchant to cloak with either 225 armor or 16 defense
Trinkets: the dodge trinket is more of a druid thing and is not a good choice for Prot Warriors in most cases. Replace with Juggernaut, Heart of Iron or even Brewfest trink. The Onyxia trinket is terrible unless using it in an anub'arak ad block set, replace it with something easy to get like The Black Heart - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47216) if he doesn't have anything better
Enchant weapon with something

EH - Blood draining
Avoidance - Bladeward
Threat - Accuracy
Cheap - Weapon Chain


Respec: he is currently 8/8/55 which is a bad choice that doesn't maximize survivability or threat or anything lol. Consider:

Half/Half (my choice): 15/3/53 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZVItrx0zidfzsGo:dciMmo)
Survivability: 5/15/51 http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZGV00xZVItMx0didczsGo:TcAMmz - or - 5/10/53 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZhiZVItrx0didIzsGo:TicMmo)
Threat (old standard): 15/5/51 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhbZMItrx0zidIzsGo:dcimMo)



Tell him to come spend some time on TankSpot since he seems to be lacking in class knowledge :D

Rukrow
12-15-2009, 08:59 AM
For 10,000 honor he can get 30 stam/15 resil shoulder enchant that is by far the best one available.

Warrenar
12-15-2009, 09:02 AM
Tell him to get rid of the hit gems. He doesn't need to have 198 hit rating. I tanked most of TotC\ToGC with around 115 hit rating because the gear in there has such little hit on it. If you looked at top warrior tanks before ICC, all of them were around 105 - 115 hit. Some of them were as low as 65 hit. The most important thing for a warrior tank's threat is to stay expertise capped. If your tanking a boss such as 25 Lord Jaraxx Heroic, then yes hit is fairly important because you don't want to miss an interrupt on a cast that can one shot you. For that, I recommend swapping out hit pieces since you don't take much damage tanking him anyways. Other then that, EH is the way to go for every boss in TotC (unless of course your an add tank on Anub).

Welmine
12-15-2009, 09:24 AM
Thanks for the helpful replies guys. To answer the one persons assertion of him being an idiot, that's far from the truth. As we stated, he just came back after one of many long hiatus' from the game and is getting back into the swing of things. Some of his gemming/enchanting choices are due to the massive number of upgrades he was getting here for a while as we started to gear him up from a naxx10 tank. It's hard for him to justify upgrading some things when he is tight on cash and likely to upgrade the item soon anyways. So, I can handle those things, it is the fascination with hit gemming and not getting stamina that had us most concerned.

Some of the gear discussed isn't an option as we are a Strict-10 guild (Juggernaut's for instance), but I'm sure we can get him some other stamina trinkets. Outside of the first attempt on Marrowgar, we were able to keep him alive in ICC 10 fine, but I attribute that more to 3 solid healers, because it was obvious he was taking a lot more damage than our dr00d. (i'm biased-I'm one of the healers)

Squirrelnut
12-15-2009, 09:30 AM
I tend to exaggerate and idiocy is more of a relative term. If he is open to recognizing flaws in gearing/itemization/stats then yes he is not an idiot and simply falls into the under-geared category.

Hit has never been a great stat and thus my impression when seeing him gem for it instead of far superior stats :P

Kazeyonoma
12-15-2009, 09:44 AM
Good replies,

Wrong forum.

Moved.

orlastud
12-15-2009, 09:48 AM
It's hard for him to justify upgrading some things when he is tight on cash and likely to upgrade the item soon anyways.

This is the part that concerns me. While being short on cash is not a serious problem that can be solved easily, it seems that the mentality that he has (or by your accounts what you say he has) is. As raiders, you can be expected to shell out massive amounts of materials and cash for minor upgrades.

For instance, if i told you that i could sell you an item or enchant that is better than what you are currently using in every way by only a slight bit, but it would cost you 5kg, would you buy it? I know I would, because it would benefit the raid and increase our ability to succeed.

His unwillingness to enchant and gem gear because it MIGHT get replaced not only hurts him, but you as well. Do you think your healers would have had an easier time healing him if he had some more HP? Is your DPS that high to warrant his current choices in enchants and gems? Is he willing to shell out massive amounts of gold and time to get those upgrades?

From this point on, its not a gear question but a "is he dedicated" question.

EmPuLSe
12-15-2009, 10:36 AM
Thanks so much for the replies, everyone =) Sorry about the wrong forum. . . my bad. :P

We have the $$ to make the changes that we need to make, and we will be making them this evening. . . The problem has been him wanting to go in a different direction than we think he should go. Now that I have confirmation that my initial thoughts were correct, we'll regem him.

Thanks again, and any other input is appreciated.

Aggathon
12-15-2009, 03:44 PM
The defense cap is 540.

Stam Czar will arrive shortly. :D

Sorry I'm late, do whatever Squirrelnut says, and stack stam!

Korbandallas
12-15-2009, 04:07 PM
Nice short answer: Your Warrior is an idiot; use a good rotation, gem stam & glyph taunt.


Just a suggestion, but not everyone who doesn't spec or gear perfectly is an idiot, uninformed perhaps but not an idiot.

Insahnity
12-15-2009, 04:14 PM
Nice short answer: Your Warrior is an idiot; use a good rotation, gem stam & glyph taunt.


He has 565 defense and is gemming defense? wtf, 540 is the minimum which he is well over.
Shoulder enchant 15 def? Replace that with the hodir rep enchant of 20 dodge & 15 defense or 30stam/15resil from honor
Replace all non-epic gems with 30 stam
Replace 22 agility enchant to cloak with either 225 armor or 16 defense

Oi, Squirrel! Contradiction alert! 225 armor is the way to go for EH stack.




Trinkets: the dodge trinket is more of a druid thing and is not a good choice for Prot Warriors in most cases. Replace with Juggernaut, Heart of Iron or even Brewfest trink. The Onyxia trinket is terrible unless using it in an anub'arak ad block set, replace it with something easy to get like The Black Heart - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47216) if he doesn't have anything better



Uh, dodge is pretty horrible for druids much like parry on proc is garbage for DKs. It's actually better for those further down the diminishing returns curve (like block tanks). Having said that, I agree that stamina trinkets are the better option, as is Glyph of Indom in some situatons, obviously excluding magic heavy fights. Satorri has alread origami-ed a napkin in a post earlier concerning this.



Good replies,

Wrong forum.

Moved.

/cheer

At the end of the day, the warrior is still in the pre-TOC days where avoidance had equitable value with EH, when everything was balanced. With ToGC 25, but before ICC, even some die-hard avoidance advocates were forced to turn to the EH dark side. He however, hasn't got on the bandwagon yet, and until his gear gets up to high level ICC gear, he does need to listen to comments here regarding EH Stacking. If he refuses to listen, well THEN we call him the proverbial idiot, after pointing him to Gormokk instagibs posts with fully geared tanks.

Squirrelnut
12-15-2009, 04:20 PM
Just a suggestion, but not everyone who doesn't spec or gear perfectly is an idiot, uninformed perhaps but not an idiot.
Isn't every idiot uniformed? I would think the definition of being an idiot is basically someone that is just uniformed. The question is whether they prefer to stay that way or learn from their and other's mistakes :D

Reev
12-15-2009, 04:23 PM
Isn't every idiot uniformed? I would think the definition of being an idiot is basically someone that is just uniformed. The question is whether they prefer to stay that way or learn from their and other's mistakes :D

I'm thinking an idiot is more like someone who is unable to become informed. Because they are idiots.

Insahnity
12-15-2009, 04:28 PM
Isn't every idiot uniformed? I would think the definition of being an idiot is basically someone that is just uniformed. The question is whether they prefer to stay that way or learn from their and other's mistakes :D

Ooh, more Poke-fun-at-Squirrelnut...

Methinks you didn't intended to insult uniformed people like military/police/fire/etc., nor to imply you can spot an idiot based on their clothing (they wear regular clothes, y'know).

But they might be uninformed, yes.

Muffin Man
12-15-2009, 04:32 PM
32k is pretty low for the content he does have access to. I see ToGC/10 gear on him and he's bought the right triumph pieces so far. So it's not like he has no idea what he's doing.

That said, he really needs to farm up emblems to get a new belt (don't care if he's waiting for Jaraxxus to drop it). And even if he uses cheap gems they should all have stamina on them, my tank set is comprised of purple, green and blue gems. I'm ocd about matching socket bonuses but I still stack the stamina. If he's really diligent he could farm emblems to get Crusader's Orbs, save up some titansteel and get the Saronite Swordbreakers/Breastplate of the White Knight crafted too. I'd lean towards the wrists if I were him.

Two avoidance trinkets would be fine if he could get his HP somewhere else, but since he can't. He really needs to get the black heart, get a group and farm the place. Bring an enchanter so you'll walk away with a ton of shards to stock up the gbank or whatnot. Good for the tank, good for the guild.

Since he's using a TBC shoulder enchant I'll assume he has no Hodir rep. That's fine, the honor shoulder enchant is plenty good for him. And if he hates to pvp all those stone keeper shards he has can be traded in for honor at wintergrasp.

Pet peeve: I don't get why people insist on suggesting tanks 'go get brewfest trinkets' when brewfest has been over for 2 months.

Suicyco
12-15-2009, 04:41 PM
I'd agree with Squirrel on a few points, but I'd keep the agility enchant, Eh+armor+HP+dodge+crit > 225 armor or 16 Def especially when he's way over the cap anyway.

Hearteater
12-15-2009, 04:47 PM
Isn't every idiot uniformed? I hate to inform you that they aren't all uniformed otherwise it would be easier to avoid them

Insahnity
12-15-2009, 05:00 PM
Pet peeve: I don't get why people insist on suggesting tanks 'go get brewfest trinkets' when brewfest has been over for 2 months.

Use the time travel feature, noob! Or wait 10 months if you have to! YOU HAVE TO GET THE BREWFEST TRINKETS!


I'd agree with Squirrel on a few points, but I'd keep the agility enchant, Eh+armor+HP+dodge+crit > 225 armor or 16 Def especially when he's way over the cap anyway.

Suicyo, I would encourage you to actually work out how much armor, dodge and crit 22 agility gives you as an 80 warrior, and re-compare with 225 armor. Please post your work if you still believe it is worth it.

Also, agility gives no Heath Points (HP).

jafager
12-15-2009, 05:29 PM
As raiders, you can be expected to shell out massive amounts of materials and cash for minor upgrades.

For instance, if i told you that i could sell you an item or enchant that is better than what you are currently using in every way by only a slight bit, but it would cost you 5kg, would you buy it? I know I would, because it would benefit the raid and increase our ability to succeed.

It depends on the level at which you play. A thousand-dollar putter is de rigueur if you're playing in the Master's, but a hundred-dollar putter is probably sufficient if you're a serious amateur and if you're a duffer like me who still misses two-foot putts, a five-dollar putter from Wal-Mart is unlikely to cramp your style.

Also, assuming that you don't have unlimited free time and unlimited funds, there is an opportunity cost to spending lots of time and/or money on tiny upgrades. I provide more utility by having a 90% main and a bunch of 80% alts than by having a 99% main and a bunch of 50% alts.

Squirrelnut
12-16-2009, 07:21 AM
I'm thinking an idiot is more like someone who is unable to become informed. Because they are idiots.
There are very few people (not counting the legitimately handicapped) that are actually unable to become informed. Those who seem to be 'un-informable' are usually just aholes not idiots lol

Aggathon
12-16-2009, 11:14 AM
I'd agree with Squirrel on a few points, but I'd keep the agility enchant, Eh+armor+HP+dodge+crit > 225 armor or 16 Def especially when he's way over the cap anyway.

I agree with Insahnity here. 225 armor is WAY better imo.

Muffin Man
12-17-2009, 01:53 PM
Use the time travel feature, noob! Or wait 10 months if you have to! YOU HAVE TO GET THE BREWFEST TRINKETS

Was there another remote that dropped off Direbrew I missed? ;)

Suicyco
12-17-2009, 04:53 PM
Use the time travel feature, noob! Or wait 10 months if you have to! YOU HAVE TO GET THE BREWFEST TRINKETS!



Suicyo, I would encourage you to actually work out how much armor, dodge and crit 22 agility gives you as an 80 warrior, and re-compare with 225 armor. Please post your work if you still believe it is worth it.

Also, agility gives no Heath Points (HP).


For Warriors tanking in a 5-man party: 1 Agility = 2 Strength = .33 Stamina = .25% Crit. = .07% Dodge = .07% Parry = 4 Attack Power = 10 Armor = 0.25 DPS = 4 Shield Block = 1 Weapon Skill = 4 Health bonus

This info was shared with me a little while ago and all points may not be valid anymore with the nerf to agility as far as dodge and armor is concerned. I believe the return on agility to armor is 2 to 1. 22 ag = 44 armor (at least on my pali it is) and the dodge return is considerably less. But I'm not sure as to warrior talents that may or may not increase agility returns.

You can do the math from here.

EmPuLSe
12-21-2009, 07:50 AM
Just to followup, We've taken everyones advice here. If you look at his armory I think you'll be impressed with the changes this thread precipitated.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightninghoof&n=Warmeister)

He raid buffed last Thursday to right around 45,000. . . and he still only has 1 stam trinket. We regemmed everything but his pants/legs, which are his 2 weakest spots. . . he will have those upgraded by Christmas. We selected the Parry/Stam gem to keep his meta active. And I think the enchants are properly done. . . Though he got +Def on his cloak (I assumed that was more valuable than 225 armor). . . however, seeing the math above I think he should change that to the armor enchant...

The last real question I have here is in regards to socket bonuses. . . . His helm is the particular item in question. Somewhere I read that you should socket for Stam unless the socket bonus was +12 or more stam. In theory does this hold true? Should he drop the Yellow gem in his helm and change it to Blue Stam? Or is there a better gem for that Yellow socket than + Def?

Thanks again for all the help! Your knowledge and willingness to inform are greatly appreciated.

Reev
12-21-2009, 07:53 AM
For a yellow gem, he can use a +15 Stamin/10 defense rating gem. that way, he's getting a total of 27 stamina (with the socket bonus), as well as 10 defense rating. It ends up being a trade of 3 stamina for 10 defense rating, which is generally considered worthwhile.

Reev
12-21-2009, 07:57 AM
Good changes, btw, but he really needs to replace that enchant on his shoulder with either the Sons of Hodir one, or the PvP one.