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Hyperios
12-14-2009, 08:08 AM
Check out this unholy tank spec i have been messing around with in heroics and tell me what you think

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZ0xLZ0ghIuczxb0x0uIq:ospmMc)

I basically took the unholy dps spec for 3.3 and moved some of the points around to make it more tank centered. I skipped reaping since in the unholy dps threads on elitistjerks they say that it isnt a dps gain over necrosis till you have mostly ICC gear.

Thanks for any suggestions in advance!

Satorri
12-14-2009, 08:50 AM
Well, it looks like about the best AoE threat that you could hope for from an Unholy spec. It sacrifices some key single target buffs, but if all you care about is AoE...

One small thing, after Heroics and Naxx you will get very little use out of Corpse Explosion, next to none at all, actually. Though, at that point I don't think you'll want or need a min/maxed AoE threat spec either.

To that end, is there a reason beyond fun and curiosity that you're trying to make a super-AoE spec?

Hyperios
12-14-2009, 09:05 AM
Actually I have found that a strong aoe spec makes adds on the gunship battle even easier so it's fairly useful there and corpse explosion works there as well

since I only tank I'm running my mt raid spec and an aoe heavy spec

Khanus
12-14-2009, 03:15 PM
Have you tried running a Frost spec while picking up Morbidity? I would think being able to keep DnD up constantly while having Howling Blast for a little more burst AoE gen. (if you couple it with Deathchill) would create a stronger AoE-focused spec. My primary concern is that although it's a great talent, Wandering Plague might not get much benefit seeing as you have a lower crit rate as a tank.

Satorri
12-14-2009, 03:55 PM
Wandering Plague is a little less impressive as a tank, but still quite powerful. In addition to raid buffs (8%), Ebon Plaguebringer gets you 3% more general crit.

Insahnity
12-14-2009, 04:05 PM
Assuming you want an aoe tank spec, here is what I would do

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZ0xxZcghhtz0gb0x0hIV:ospmMc)

Explanations (assuming PURE AoE, with no little regard to single target)
Unholy Blight - You will not be casting Death Coils with your RP, Save for Corpse Explosions, runestrikes and defensive Cooldowns (IBF/AMS).
BCB - BCB does not work with runestrikes, but necrosis does. There's a point on BCB to move ahead in the tree.
Bone Armor - If you are tanking that many mobs, Bone armor disappears quite quickly. The premise of Bone Armor tanks is to have a really high avoidance rate to avoid being struck, and therefore have higher bone armor uptime, but with the Chill of the Throne debuff, that is not gonna happen.
Scourge Strike - It's a very powerful SINGLE TARGET ability, I put that point into black ice. In practical terms, it's one of the best points spent in unholy. In the absence of Scourge strike, you would death strike which get significant bonuses from having 3 diseases, and also heals you slightly.

With this spec, you would do the following:

1) DnD + IT + PS + Pestilence
2) DnD + Death Strike + Bloodboil + Corpse explosion if available
3) DnD + Death Strike + Pestilence + Corpse explosion if available
4) Repeat 2) and 3) over and over

Alternatively, you could try this spec
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0E00hZ0xbZcghhtz0gb0x0hIV:ospmMc)
and try to leverage Death runes for more blood boil as follows
1) DnD + IT + PS + Pestilence
2) DnD + Death Strike + Bloodboil + Corpse explosion if available
3) DnD + Bloodboil + Pestilence + Corpse explosion if available
4) Repeat 2) and 3) over and over

But I suspect that taking out 3 point in black ice to get Death Rune Mastery would not make it as powerful as the former spec.

Satorri
12-15-2009, 06:07 AM
I was toying around with the idea of a heavy AoE-focused Unholy spec (personally, I don't think you need to give up things to have it do perfectly fine AoE threat, but it's a fun exercise in talents).

Here's what I was playing with:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0E0zZhxZdghIz0zgc0x0uIq:sop0mc)

I toyed with the idea of Dark Conviction vs Black Ice and decided I'd rather have the bonus crit to focus on buffing Wandering Plague (crit'ing diseases popping will be a big deal). I took Imp IT because if you're tanking a large pack, de-hasting them will be very valuable to survival (fewer hits taken and maybe a bit longer stretch on Bone Shield duration). If you're not concerned about survival, then I'd move those to Dark Conviction, actually. I'm not positive that it would go farther than Black Ice without checking, but the math in my head works like this.

2% Shadow and Frost damage is a 2% increase in Disease, DnD, CE, and BB damage for AoE minding. That's nice.

Wandering Plague makes it so first, diseases can crit (crit chance translates to an increase in damage with them too, already buffs the other 3). But, every time a disease crits it doubles in damage on the main target, AND adds that doubled damage to each additional target in range. So, if you have 2 targets the disease does 4x damage when it crits, 3 targets is 6x damage when it crits. If you're tanking 8 targets, 1% crit from Dark Conviction is a 16% increase in disease damage, in addition to being a 1% increase in DnD, BB, and CE. So, if 16% of your disease damage is worth more than 1% of DnD, BB, and CE combined (in other words the 2% gain from each point of Black Ice) then Dark Conviction would be better.

The only place I'm not sure of that is DnD which, glyphed and possibly with the t10 2pc bonus, will do abhorrent threat.

Hyperios
12-21-2009, 08:22 AM
I am actually still using the spec i posted earlier and doing mainly heroics with it and as i stated before tanking the horde ship in the gunship battle. I am ending up 2nd in dps in almost all my heroics. It makes for extremely fast runs where people can AOE their faces off. My single target threat is enough to hold off all but the most extremely geared dps in a 5 man setting. Glyphing DnD with the t10 set bonus would be insane threat.

weisskrutz
12-23-2009, 12:48 PM
I am actually still using the spec i posted earlier and doing mainly heroics with it and as i stated before tanking the horde ship in the gunship battle. I am ending up 2nd in dps in almost all my heroics. It makes for extremely fast runs where people can AOE their faces off. My single target threat is enough to hold off all but the most extremely geared dps in a 5 man setting. Glyphing DnD with the t10 set bonus would be insane threat.


Hyper, overall, does your unholy hold good threat? Never seen/ran across an unholy tank before and I think I might respec just to try it out. Just want to know before I waste 50g :P

Synapse
12-23-2009, 12:51 PM
Hyper, overall, does your unholy hold good threat? Never seen/ran across an unholy tank before and I think I might respec just to try it out. Just want to know before I waste 50g :P
The basic difference in the threat output of unholy vs frost and blood is the early spikiness. Unholy takes an extra gcd to generate optimal aoe threat, since "it-ps-pest-d&d" is more threat than "d&d-it-ps-pest" because of Ebon Plague.
It shouldn't be a problem single-target, and for heroics the latter, while suboptimal, will suffice. Neither is a problem for anything that lives longer than the duration od a d&d anyway.

Soldeadguy
12-25-2009, 08:01 PM
I have a DK alt that I've been playing around with as tank so forgive me if this comes off as a odd question.

All these specs have 3 points in wandering plague, wont that be less effective due to the low crit chance of prot gear?

Satorri
12-26-2009, 04:50 AM
Yes and no Soldead. A typical Unholy tank build will have 3% boosted crit chance from Ebon Plaguebringer. Other than that it is only raid buffs and any crit rating or agility you have on your weapon or enchants/gems (most won't gem for Crit, but if you're making an AoE spec, Shifting Agi/Stam purples for red slots may not be a bad idea. Raid buffs will get you you 8%, so 11-13% crit chance (adding in base Agi and possible Agi enchant) is pretty reasonable to expect.

I said above, it's not a game winner in general, but the point of this discussion was to make a powerful AoE threat tool, and Wandering Plague is still pretty awesome for that. Essentially it makes your diseases able to crit, right? Except every time they crit they also splash on as many targets as are stacked on top of them. So if you are tanking 4 things, every tick of every disease has a chance to crit for essentially 5x damage.

I wouldn't focus on this for a typical balanced or single target build, but so long as we're aiming to max out AoE threat, it's not a bad choice.

Hyperios
12-28-2009, 07:40 AM
Hyper, overall, does your unholy hold good threat? Never seen/ran across an unholy tank before and I think I might respec just to try it out. Just want to know before I waste 50g :P


Yeah it holds good enough single target threat for heroics, i wouldnt try to tank a raid boss with it. I almost always end up 2nd on dps in heroics with it even with decently geared groups.

Satorri
12-28-2009, 07:42 AM
Unholy in general? Can have fantastic single target threat.

I don't know about this build though, having not put it through the paces. Hyperios holds those keys. =)

Edgewalker
12-28-2009, 08:42 AM
These threads still never cease to amaze me. I think the major problem Death Knights have with heroic tanking is their inability to judge when a situation requires pestilence or not. For the basic pull DnD + Blood Boil + Blood Tap + Blood Boil - DS - Repeat will lock every mob onto you, regardless of the gear level of your companions. Raw Blood boils are still your best tool as a blood spec for AoE snap threat, and it's the refusal to use them without two diseases up that get a lot of blood tanks in trouble. In addition, you can start most pulls (if you properly use DS) with 2 blood runes + 4 death runes, and AoE tanking actually becomes beyond trivial at that point.

As for this spec, you lose out on some pretty key talents, namely Vicious Strikes. You also got Black Ice over 2 handed weapon spec, which is just a pure damage downgrade (you are trading 4% all damage for 4% frost and shadow damage). Desolation doesn't really fit into a pure AoE threat spec, it's 5 talent points and requires you to weave in blood strike.
It also seems to me that frost would be your best bet if you wanted the fll spectrum of AoE abilities. You can open with DnD, follow with Howling Blast (and Glyph for it too if you really wanted ease of use), use Blood Boils to follow up, and still use Corpse Explosion. Wandering Plague isn't reliable enough as a tank with our crit levels.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0vZ0gx0AbIofzbuzAo0gh0z:ospmMc)

Charrlie
12-30-2009, 03:53 PM
This is my first time on the boards but have read them for awhile now since I have both a Warrior and DK tank. I am also wanting to build an unholy tank spec for my DK since I enjoy the tree so much.

I wanted to get clarification about Two handed weapon specialization from what Edgewalker said. The way I understand the tooltip 2hand specialization only increases damage for attacks that use your 2 handed weapon, is that wrong?

I know with my warrior, 1 hand specialization tooltip says physical damage is increased when a 1 handed weapon is equipped. So I take that as all damage done is increased which is similar to the paladin 1 hand spec talent.

This would affect my Unholy build that I want to use if this is true. Thanks

Insahnity
12-30-2009, 05:47 PM
These threads still never cease to amaze me. I think the major problem Death Knights have with heroic tanking is their inability to judge when a situation requires pestilence or not. For the basic pull DnD + Blood Boil + Blood Tap + Blood Boil - DS - Repeat will lock every mob onto you, regardless of the gear level of your companions. Raw Blood boils are still your best tool as a blood spec for AoE snap threat, and it's the refusal to use them without two diseases up that get a lot of blood tanks in trouble. In addition, you can start most pulls (if you properly use DS) with 2 blood runes + 4 death runes, and AoE tanking actually becomes beyond trivial at that point.

As for this spec, you lose out on some pretty key talents, namely Vicious Strikes. You also got Black Ice over 2 handed weapon spec, which is just a pure damage downgrade (you are trading 4% all damage for 4% frost and shadow damage). Desolation doesn't really fit into a pure AoE threat spec, it's 5 talent points and requires you to weave in blood strike.
It also seems to me that frost would be your best bet if you wanted the fll spectrum of AoE abilities. You can open with DnD, follow with Howling Blast (and Glyph for it too if you really wanted ease of use), use Blood Boils to follow up, and still use Corpse Explosion. Wandering Plague isn't reliable enough as a tank with our crit levels.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0vZ0gx0AbIofzbuzAo0gh0z:ospmMc)

I think you missed the point. It isn't about holding aggro, it's a trivial discussion about doing as much aoe DPS (not threat, DPS), presumably to speed through trash. In this scenario, you kind of have to ignore people pulling threat, and anything other than an unholy spec (unless you claim that a Frost or Blood can out AoE an AoE Unholy spec.).

Speaking of blood specs is hijacking this thread towards bloodspec lovers!

Proletaria
12-30-2009, 06:49 PM
Unholy's threat has come a long way since last patch, and i'd certainly say it's got promise for aoe threat. With that being said, it's got hands-down the worst mitigation for an add-tanking situation. Bone-Shield charges will be eaten just as fast as they can drop off. Unholy has no passive physical damage reduction or health bonuses, and it clearly sits as a second fiddle for surviving anything but very slow melee attacks or magic damage.

I can certainly see niched encounters for unholy in ICC (in upcoming wings, certainly not now), but on the whole it's the weakest spec for trash tanking, add tanking, and physical encounters like overlord, marrowgar (currently seems to be bugged, he can wipe out all BS charges in a fraction of what is supposed to be it's minimal uptime), and the Airship Captain. Not by reason of lacking threat, it has made huge strides in that department, but solely by it's inability to survive well without bs running (and Chill of the Throne combined with relatively faster hitting bosses has all but destroyed the viability of this cooldown).

wazdaa
12-31-2009, 01:30 AM
5mans frost would beat em all as unholy has a slow ramp up just as blood and mobs are dead before unholy can pull ahead

raids just work together with the other tanks. don't need some crazy spec, just some teamwork or occasionally give the rogues hysteria so you get their tricks and always blame hunters a wipe so they misdirect everything on you in the hope you won't make it, that way even blood has rock solid threat.

KnThrak
12-31-2009, 01:54 AM
Wandering Plague is a little less impressive as a tank, but still quite powerful.

The big issue for me was the reliability at first.
I'm up to ~15% crit without Feral Aura now, 20% with it. It's getting there, especially once the 3% crit debuff is on a target it's good for single threat, too.

For AE, the key really was to get to 20% buffed crit. It needs to proc early enough to secure some threat, and getting it reliably critting as a tank is a mess of itemization. :S

Satorri
12-31-2009, 05:09 AM
I wanted to get clarification about Two handed weapon specialization from what Edgewalker said. The way I understand the tooltip 2hand specialization only increases damage for attacks that use your 2 handed weapon, is that wrong?

I know with my warrior, 1 hand specialization tooltip says physical damage is increased when a 1 handed weapon is equipped. So I take that as all damage done is increased which is similar to the paladin 1 hand spec talent.


The DK talent is not the same as the Warrior/Pally talent (which increases all your damage done, essentially, so long as you're using a 1-handed weapon).

2-hand spec will increase your base weapon damage by 2/4%. So, if you look at your melee tab of your character sheet, where it calculates your weapon damage factoring your weapon, AP, and static scalars, that value will increase by 2/4%. The trickle-down is that all of your "-strikes" scale off of that value, so they will see the buff indirectly.

For example, Scourge Strike takes 50% of your weapon damage, but that gets increased by 25% per disease, so 50% x 1.75 = 87.5%, and Outbreak (3/3) increases ScS damage by 20%, so that becomes 87.5% x 1.20 = 105% weapon damage. So, 2 pts in 2-hand Spec would increase ScS damage by 4.2%.

It would also affect your melee swings, RS, PS, and BS. All of which add up to a pretty decent amount of your threat. It is a talent worth taking, if you can get there with your other priorities.

Edgewalker
12-31-2009, 09:31 AM
I think you missed the point. It isn't about holding aggro, it's a trivial discussion about doing as much aoe DPS (not threat, DPS), presumably to speed through trash. In this scenario, you kind of have to ignore people pulling threat, and anything other than an unholy spec (unless you claim that a Frost or Blood can out AoE an AoE Unholy spec.).

Speaking of blood specs is hijacking this thread towards bloodspec lovers!

Oh I know, talking less about the OP and more about the constantly repeated, and terribly wrong, mantra that Blood is bad for AoE or heroics. I've been blood consistently for the past 3 patches and still clear heroics in 5-15 minutes depending on the instance without threat of losing agro. It's a playstyle issue when people fail with blood, nothing else :\

Proletaria
12-31-2009, 11:30 AM
Oh I know, talking less about the OP and more about the constantly repeated, and terribly wrong, mantra that Blood is bad for AoE or heroics. I've been blood consistently for the past 3 patches and still clear heroics in 5-15 minutes depending on the instance without threat of losing agro. It's a playstyle issue when people fail with blood, nothing else :\

Blood is 'viable' for heroics. And i don't respec for heroics myself, but that doesn't make blood's aoe threat "good," in comparison to anything.

If you are "good" at blood aoe, that's fine, but you have to recognize that if you were "good" at unholy or frost rotations too, your aoe threat would improve. Like i said earlier, I still consider blood to be a better all-around spec, but to say that blood is somehow superior on the front of aoe threat alone is hog-wash.

Insahnity
12-31-2009, 12:49 PM
Oh I know, talking less about the OP and more about the constantly repeated, and terribly wrong, mantra that Blood is bad for AoE or heroics. I've been blood consistently for the past 3 patches and still clear heroics in 5-15 minutes depending on the instance without threat of losing agro. It's a playstyle issue when people fail with blood, nothing else :\

Methinks you have seen this before:

RaidLeader: <In LFG Channel> Looking for Whelp Tank for Ony 25, PST!
Edgewalker: Geared DK tank <Achievement Link>
<Edgwalker has joined the raid>
RaidLeader: What's your spec?
Edgewalker: Blood
<Edgewalker has left the raid>
<LoLSwipeSpam has joined the raid>

And yes, I agree, Blood is just fine as an AoE tank, it's a holdover from several patches ago (like warrior tanks who don't like to be priest shielded).

Edgewalker
12-31-2009, 01:51 PM
Blood is 'viable' for heroics. And i don't respec for heroics myself, but that doesn't make blood's aoe threat "good," in comparison to anything.

If you are "good" at blood aoe, that's fine, but you have to recognize that if you were "good" at unholy or frost rotations too, your aoe threat would improve. Like i said earlier, I still consider blood to be a better all-around spec, but to say that blood is somehow superior on the front of aoe threat alone is hog-wash.

To me "good" is being able to easily hold a pack of mobs over any possible DPS AoE. Blood achieves this with little effort, as well as Unholy, as well as any other tank, slightly worse than Frost. That's all.
People also have this weird obsession with Unholy being some great AoE force... it's not as good as frost, about par with Blood. You gain more disease damage and wandering plague (almost trivial for a tank, AND unreliable) at the cost of a Heart Strike cleave, 30% more Blood Boils, and the ability to DS - double Blood Boil Death Rune dumb on the next rotation. The caveat of Corpse Explosion is that if a mob is dead for you to explode, chances are you are about to be done with the pack...
I'm still waiting for some actual reasoning besides anecdotal evidence. Anyone feel free to step in. Please bear in mind that this is a TANKING discussion also... Wandering Plague is a different beast when used by DPS with 40% crit.

Hyperios
12-31-2009, 08:48 PM
The reason i took more frost damage over increased 2h weapon damage was because this is a pure AOE spec, 5% more frost damage hits everyone that has frost fever increasing my 2h weapon damage does not increase aoe damage.

If you are AOE'ing as blood i can see how pestilence would not be as powerful but with the damage increase on diseases its a still a very valuable tool and makes AOE threat less bursty and more sustained. Using this unholy spec and glyphing disease is simply rediculous AOE threat, spamming blood boil, glyphed DnD, and pestilence is enough AOE threat to hold off even the most trigger happy warlock tab-seeding.

Satorri
01-01-2010, 05:45 AM
I've never seen or been discriminated against for being a Blood tank, regardless of circumstance. Maybe I'm lucky that I don't have to do many random pug raids, but I haven't seen that as a common theme in the community either.

That said, dumb is real and quantifiable, that doesn't mean we give it credence and change the way we play to appease the dumb...

Hyperios
01-01-2010, 02:31 PM
My main tank spec is blood and as far as i have seen on our server that is the trend. I dont know how you could be discriminated against because really in the end blood is the strongest 2h tank spec. I have never had anyone question me speccing blood as the MT.

The only time i have ever had to explain myself for anything was speccing DW tank but i can understand why people question that.

Edgewalker
01-01-2010, 09:04 PM
I wasn't really talking about discrimination, I'm just curious where people come up with their ideas that Unholy is somehow better than Blood for AoE threat or heroic tanking threat. It's just.... not.

Proletaria
01-01-2010, 11:32 PM
Unholy isn't better for aoe tanking, so it's a moot point regardless of how much more sustained threat it can or cannot produce. It functions the worst in terms of actually staying alive while tanking a lot of adds, thus i'd never suggest it's use for heroics.

With that being said, there is plenty of room to debate the capacity of the three trees to generate threat. Given there are quite a few varieties of frost and blood tanking specs and not all of them are very aoe-oriented, I wouldn't presume one defaulted as a better option. It depends entirely on what you spec and glyph for with your floater points.