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Zothor
12-13-2009, 07:31 PM
So I'm our guild's tank officer, with almost all of my tanking experience on my paladin save about 40 levels of a warrior alt. As much as I try and keep up on the details, I'm not seeing it through the eyes of my warriors. And the general consensus of my healers, in both ToGC and ICC10/25, is that my warriors are melting.

My guild carries 2 prot paladins and 2 prot warriors at the moment. Nearly every healers is on board that the paladins are, not marginally, but SIGNIFICANTLY easier to keep alive. Obviously there are certain serious class balance mechanics at work here - Ardent defender alone covers up a lot of mistakes for healers where they may not even realize that technically, they let me die. There's not much warriors can do about that. But what CAN I have my guys do?

The problem is apparently exacerbated in Icecrown. My suspicion, admittedly without combat logs and math, is that chill of the throne is exacerbating parryhasting. Neither of my warriors is hard expertise capped, or really anywhere close to it (I was surprised to discover this, but my best geared one has chased all the hit gear in ToC so hits taunts don't miss), and consequently are getting parried pretty often. That warrior died to a 2shot on Deathwhisper adds where he took a 28k special attack and a 20k white attack legitimately .16 seconds apart according to the combat log. I'm not sure how hits of that size can be coming in that fast if he's not being significantly parryhasted.

I have searched for days for someone to answer why my warriors are getting jacked, and what I can have them do. Every post I see where someone says "I'm dying, the similarly geared paladin isn't," has been answered with "it's your healers, not you," and/or "you're undergeared for Icecrown."

Well. Not EVERYONE's healers suck, and not everyone is undergeared for icecrown. At some point, a pattern suggests an underlying trend. This isn't designed to be a post about "qq paladins are OP" - I know I'm OP at the moment. But I can't change that. And I need some way to keep my warriors from getting killed, because if they don't I have to bench them and they're not bad tanks or bad people.

Help.

For reference, my warrior:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Spinebreaker&n=Cristoff)

And myself, in almost identical overall gear quality:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Spinebreaker&n=Zothor)

There are clearly a bunch of warriors feeling this problem... any experiences you can add to help us figure out wtf is happening to warriors in icecrown (I HIGHLY suspect there is something with Chill of the throne where the 20% more hits taken is scaling badly for classes that get more heavily parryhasted, but I don't have numbers to support this theory) is greatly appreciated.

Wars
12-13-2009, 07:42 PM
He needs to spec Imp disciplines, and glyph Last stand and Shield wall. Then he can blow shield wall once every two minutes and same with Last stand. This will make him much easier to heal.

Apparently I'm the easiest to heal tank in my guild, and we run with 2 warriors, a paladin and a druid full time.

Sooo, something's wrong.

Also if you look at the parryhaste chance it's something like 1.7% of all overall swings that are actually effected with the full 40% swing timer reduction. Satrina broke down the numbers. Even dual-weilding DKs don't get much parry-haste. Not enough to warrant anyone losing their mind like I see so many people do.

Shouldn't be very surprising that he's taking more damage, he's got a lot of threat stuff in the gear/build.

Akeber
12-13-2009, 10:55 PM
With the spec and glyphs he's running he has very long timers on CDs, which when used intelligently can make a tank seem much easier to heal. A paladin's AD does not require the user to be proactive, whereas a properly timed shield block or last stand will make damage intake smoother. I'd also drop some points into shield spec as it will help far more with sustained rage generation (and some damage mitigation) than the two points in improved BB.

As far as the deathwhisper adds, there is one type of add that moves slow, hits like a truck, and is not supposed to be tanked but kited and dpsed down.

Zothor
12-13-2009, 11:02 PM
With the spec and glyphs he's running he has very long timers on CDs, which when used intelligently can make a tank seem much easier to heal. A paladin's AD does not require the user to be proactive, whereas a properly timed shield block or last stand will make damage intake smoother. I'd also drop some points into shield spec as it will help far more with sustained rage generation (and some damage mitigation) than the two points in improved BB.

As far as the deathwhisper adds, there is one type of add that moves slow, hits like a truck, and is not supposed to be tanked but kited and dpsed down.

Sure, except I can tank those adds, and usually without ardent defender firing off. And I'm specced and gearing almost entirely for threat myself. When you say "a lot of threat" stuff in the gear/build, where are you seeing alternatives besides cooldown reductions? I'm not that familiar with warriors which is why I'm here, but I don't see "a lot" that would help him by speccing out of threat.

I don't think this is about cooldowns. He's dying sooner on trash than I am too. He was dying earlier on Heroic Gormok, to the point where even with cooldowns I had to put him at the front of the rotation and back him up with paladins.

It just feels like there's just more damage coming in faster.

As for Satrina's math, I haven't seen it and I'd be curious if you can link me, but given Theck's work on the avoidance value of Expertise due to parryhasting over at Maintankadin, I've been wary about the ole "oh it can't be parryhasting..." type attitude.

Aethelas
12-13-2009, 11:33 PM
Barring 'shit outta luck' scenario's where you take an impale + melee swing and not enough heals land in the .5 or so seconds healers have to give you some it's quite doable not to go squish. However, it takes thinking out the order in which you use your cooldowns. After I did that I very, very rarely go squish. And your tank has better gear than I have.

However, it does require planning. Gearing for hit rating in Tier 9 content isn't exactly handy - you'd be amazed how much difference it makes to vigilance another tank or if you want to be safe, run the glyph of taunt.

Airowird
12-14-2009, 01:48 AM
The reason they die is because unlike Paladins, they have a medium chance to be swung at for the full amount of damage, where Paladins usually are unhittable or atleast close to it. That's an extra 2k+ damage from the melee your Warriors take, possibly killing them. If they aren't using Shield Block for Impales tell them to start doing it :)

Fledern
12-14-2009, 02:05 AM
Proactive planning & acting is required by the warrior to keep up with paladin surviability. Here are two tips that i found makes all the difference between being squishy:

1) Timing the shieldblock. For example on heroic Gormok, putting the block up just before the SECOND impale instead of the first makes all the difference. Similar stuff with the empowered adds on deathwhisper... normally they should be kited but if you have your block & demo shout up, you can survive pretty decently if your dps is fast.

2) Demo shout/Vindication. This is one of my pet peeves. Vindication overwrites demo shout. If you're both hitting the same mob, your vindication will overwrite his demo. Then if you turn away to hit something for 10 secs, your vindication falls off & he doesnt realize it and he gets pwnd. We wiped quite a few times on heroic Gormok till we realized what was happening. My way around it? I use Satrina's Buff Frames, with a new frame showing a filtered list of debuffs that are of interest to me. I watch the vindication timer, if it falls off, i pop my demo shout.

Basically, warrior damage intake is spikier, not "higher". If your healers do not adjust for that too, you're going to only go 1/2 the way towards unsquishy tanks. Intelligent heals like Prayer of Mending can cover the difference really easy too so it's not "extra" burden on the healers.

Lore
12-14-2009, 02:34 AM
I wanted to respond to this part of your post:


The problem is apparently exacerbated in Icecrown. My suspicion, admittedly without combat logs and math, is that chill of the throne is exacerbating parryhasting. Neither of my warriors is hard expertise capped, or really anywhere close to it (I was surprised to discover this, but my best geared one has chased all the hit gear in ToC so hits taunts don't miss), and consequently are getting parried pretty often. That warrior died to a 2shot on Deathwhisper adds where he took a 28k special attack and a 20k white attack legitimately .16 seconds apart according to the combat log. I'm not sure how hits of that size can be coming in that fast if he's not being significantly parryhasted.

The problem is not that Chill of the Throne is making your Warriors more vulnerable to parry hastes. There are two problems with the example you give here:

#1: Special attacks have nothing to do with parry haste -- they're on separate timers. Parry haste only applies to a boss's regular melee swings.

#2: Bosses in Icecrown are specifically designed to be incapable of parry gibbing a tank. This isn't done by disabling parry haste on the mobs, but by causing their damage abilities to be so small that one coming right after the other won't gib them. Even if your 28k and 20k hits were the product of parry hasting, 48k HP fully buffed seems pretty low -- our Warriors were breaking 50k when ToC was just being released. It doesn't look like your Warrior's gear is the problem; were you just missing an important raid buff? Warriors provide Commanding Shout themselves, and Mark, Kings, and Fort can all be applied through drums.

Petninja
12-14-2009, 02:54 AM
Honestly it probably is just coming down to use of cooldowns, since I'm assuming that he's keeping demo shout and tclap up (or someone is). He's got 5 fairly powerful cooldowns at his disposal. Last Stand, Enraged Regeneration, Shield Wall, Glyph of Indomitably (7% dodge), Shield Block all will go towards making him easier to heal when used properly. Don't save all of them for when things get bad, because saving them might just have been what made things get bad in the first place. Also, make sure your Warriors are using the 3500 armor pots. One just before pull so it resets the timer during combat, and one after the first wears off. This will give you 4 minutes of 3500 more armor which is a handy amount of damage reduction.

Proactive cooldown usage and a keen eye on things like this have earned me a reputation for being easier to heal than the better geared tanks.

pktan
12-14-2009, 03:45 AM
I'm a warrior tank. Regarding the deathwhipser adds, I have similar encounter. I was tanking the adds on the left side of the room, 2 x fanatics and 1 x adherent. I noticed I am getting quite a huge spikes while tanking both the fanatics. Later I realised that the 2 mobs tends to move around randomly with any slight tank movement. Most of the case one of the fanatics will move behind me, and thats when I received the "spike" damage.

With this "discovery", I will make sure I shockwave both fanatics when they are close to me, then position myself infront of the mobs, then hit shield block. No more "spike" damage from then on.

One more thing, when the fanatics became enpowered, they hit v v v hard. Make sure you are quick to kite them.

Lastly, I do aggree that warrior tanks tends to take more spikey damage. And spike damage is the common causes of tanks death. Very good example is Hardmode Northrend beast. I feel so helpless when this happens.

Kojiyama
12-14-2009, 06:02 AM
There are ways to survive tanking everything as a Warrior, but I wouldn't say your healers are wrong either.

Paladins just take less damage. That's how it is right now. A lot of people can theorize on how your Warriors can improve when they tank (there are lots of ways to get pretty much a 100% survival rate on Northrend Beast, for example)--which is a very good thing to do--however the simple fact is that if your Paladin and Warrior tanks are equally geared and skilled, the Paladin will most likely have a better chance of surviving the encounter.

Paladins will typically have more health and the mechanics of Ardent Defender are very powerful for the purposes of survival.

Also, I have to disagree with Lore a bit on the parry haste issue. If ICC bosses are parry hastable, then Warriors will typically gain a substantial reduction in survival due to that fact, especially as much of the ICC gear is itemized towards Hit instead of Expertise. Even with lower base hits than TotC, Parry-hasting will contribute to a non-trivial increase in damage for Warrior tanks not at the Expertise cap due to their frequency of parryable attacks per boss swing. This further exacerbates the issue.

(Even with 41 Expertise, there is a ~4% chance to be Parried from the front. So even with that much Expertise and the lowered hit sizes, a Warrior tank will take roughly 3-5% increased damage over time, plus the chance of significant burst damage. I have not seen conclusive testing as to which bosses parry haste in ICC, but I've seen suggestions that the cause of, for instance, exceptionally fast Marrowgar Saber Lash spam is due to parry haste. It could also be pretty negative on a fight like Saurfang with mechanics tied to swing speeds.)

Rawkz
12-14-2009, 07:59 AM
Plain and simple, your warriors geared for threat and probably using cooldowns once it is too late rather then before incoming damage, shieldblock can be almost as effective as ardent defender if not always used at 100% hp. As far as tanking the deformed adds on Lady Deathwhisper, well you shouldn't be doing it that way anyway, and to say you can and he cant is really untrue, there isn't really anything a pally can do that a warrior cant other then die once every 2 min without actually dying.

Some rules of thumb that I usually go by:

1. Shield Block: A lot of warriors still use this ability as a threat ability, when it is so much more then that. Used at 100% hp its almost wasted with the amount of incoming dmg there is now, I try to save this for sub 60% hp.

2. Shield Wall: A lot of warriors still make the mistake of using this too late. 20-30% hp with no incoming heals is a great time to use this ability. If you wait too late and use it there's a good chance the next attack will kill you anyway.

3. Last stand/enraged regen/satrinas: I tend to macro these three together for when a heavy flow of fast/hard hits start coming in, Raid buffed with last stand/trinket im lookin at 75k hp and regen at that amount of hp is no joke and can take a lot of stress off of your healers. When I have a slow hard hitting boss I like to seperate these and use trinket around 25k hp or lower if shield block is up.

4. MAKE SURE that Thunderclap and Demo Shout are ALWAYS up. or now that raid sac has been nerfed maybe it wouldn't hurt to have a ret pally spec back into vindication if your warrs threat relys on that 1 gcd.

5. Glyphs/Spec: This isn't naxx anymore. If you cant reach a decent amount of hit and you just can not afford for your taunt to miss(Gormok 2 tank strat, 4 impales each tank), carry around some extra taunt glyphs and be prepared to switch back and forth for progression fights.

In short tell your warrior to start using his shield block for useful mitigation rather then threat and it wouldnt hurt to drop some hit for some avoidance. Sure it's nice to have but with rogues and the new misdirect, getting your warr far enough ahead on threat in the first 10 sec of the battle isn't really a problem. Also proper CD usage can make or break any fight for a warrior tank.

Reev
12-14-2009, 09:16 AM
Was your warrior tank that was being hit so hard being hit by the Deformed Fanatics with the debuff on?

Zothor
12-14-2009, 01:10 PM
2) Demo shout/Vindication. This is one of my pet peeves. Vindication overwrites demo shout. If you're both hitting the same mob, your vindication will overwrite his demo. Then if you turn away to hit something for 10 secs, your vindication falls off & he doesnt realize it and he gets pwnd. We wiped quite a few times on heroic Gormok till we realized what was happening. My way around it? I use Satrina's Buff Frames, with a new frame showing a filtered list of debuffs that are of interest to me. I watch the vindication timer, if it falls off, i pop my demo shout.

This is a really, really good point and I'll take a long look at this, thank you. Knowing my guys and the fact that as a paladin, I basically never miss a raid... this is a very likely possibility.


Even if your 28k and 20k hits were the product of parry hasting, 48k HP fully buffed seems pretty low

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear - 48k wasn't enough to kill him. It was the 48k spike in .16 seconds, at least according to our deathlogs, that killed him. Clearly if that was lethal he wasn't topped off, and healers could do that better, but I'm trying not to go back to my healers with an answer of "durrrr, you gots to heal good too." He was tanking 2-3 mobs at the time, swings are going to come in fast, top offs aren't going to last long.


. Later I realised that the 2 mobs tends to move around randomly with any slight tank movement. Most of the case one of the fanatics will move behind me, and thats when I received the "spike" damage.

With this "discovery", I will make sure I shockwave both fanatics when they are close to me, then position myself infront of the mobs, then hit shield block. No more "spike" damage from then on.

This is the known current pathing bug introduced in 3.3 affecting most, if not all mobs in the game. Pissing the hell out of me. The shockwave trick is good advice that I'll pass on though.

As to everyone addressing the deformed fanatics with their crazy beast debuff that makes them hit like a sledgehammer, no, that's not what I was concerned about killing him. That's SUPPOSED to kill anyone. My point was just more to the fact that, as example of the unfortunate reality that Paladin mitigation, especially in danger zones due to Ardent defender, is significantly smoother and more automatic than warriors, is that I HAVE successfully and repeatedly taken these guys to the face. My healers did immediately say "you're probably not supposed to do that," but the above poster claiming "and to say you can and he cant is really untrue," I said that I have and he hasn't. The facts of what we've successfully done with the same healers are just that, facts.

I do appreciate all the advice on the warrior front - particularly the use of shieldblock as a defensive cooldown and not a threat one, i would never have thought of that since I obviously equate it to my holy shield, which is in rotation. I may also make him lose the hit and glyph back into taunt to make up for it.

Thanks again.

protonly
12-15-2009, 05:36 AM
There are some gear options and spec things your warrior can do to help a bit. But if your warrior is worried about losing taunts in taunt-important fights, just change glyphs. I started to carry around literally four stacks of glyphs to swap out for fights just because of my lack of hit (and since I was changing them on a per-fight basis I wanted options). This literally is a game changer and it easy. Screw the hit - just glyph. I can't stress how much this stupid little thing changed things and I've only been doing it for two days.

I'm at the same point as your warrior I suppose. I have about 47-49k HP fully buffed depending on trinkets (which I would think is MORE than enough) but I can get owned with some unlucky spikes that happen too quick to cd out of. I'm guessing that AD is allowing pallys to survive those blasts by the skin of their teeth and sheer luck. (Also in equal/like gear the pally will always have more HP, this is due to talents giving the pally like 12% more stam vs the warriors %6 - just throwing that out there.)

drae
12-15-2009, 07:07 AM
But if your warrior is worried about losing taunts in taunt-important fights, just change glyphs. I started to carry around literally four stacks of glyphs to swap out for fights just because of my lack of hit (and since I was changing them on a per-fight basis I wanted options). This literally is a game changer and it easy. Screw the hit - just glyph.

This


Hit is often over rated for warriors. I didn't have more then 22hit throughout the latter half of T9.5

Concentrate on living before threat... glyph'ing taunt allows you to focus gear on what matters... survivability.

Pwnanapuddin
12-16-2009, 07:11 AM
I know it is a jerk thing to say also, But have you considered diversifying your tank group a little more? Right now my guild has Me(Frost DW) and Druid as our main tanks, we also have 2 warriors that are about 1/2 tier worth of gear behind me and the druid (we are the progression tanks for 25). We also have at least 1 other frost DK about a full tier behind, and a paladin keeping up on his own accord (he plays with the azns in our guild and does 25's with them).

But I suppose my point is that we have found rolling with a lot of the same types of tank at the same time can highly limit your options, and if that is all you have to work with then your warriors have to find a way to make it happen. (we have very little issue with our warriors, we let them handle stuff they can single target tank.) If they can't, it may be time to see if anyone has a desire to tank, or find you a Druid/DK to take one of those warrior spots.

Cristoff
12-16-2009, 07:50 AM
Thanks everyone for the advice. Hopefully this is gonna help.

I have spec'd into improved disciplines to see how things go with that. Just used Veneretio's non-deep wounds that he's currently running to see how things go with that before tweaking maybe.

As for Shield Blocking...yeah. Guilty as charged. I'm using it to pump up my Shield Slam as opposed to a defensive use. Will give it a whirl in a more defensive use and see how that helps out.

Also, once again, the cooldowns have been used in a more reactive vs proactive manner. In the past have always considered them as an OH CRAP NO HEALS button and that's going to be a hard habit to break, but doable.

As to a variety of tanks? Yeah. Sad but true that's kind of where we've fallen to. A lot of guilds have a large stack of DK's - We didn't have a single one in Raid last night. We have a Druid that kind of swing tanks sometimes, but hardly ever in our 25 mans because he's one of our top DPS. Would be nice to have variety. We've had some more apps rolling in lately...hopefully we'll have the variety I crave sooner rather than later.

Thanks for all the advice. I would LOVE to put Zo into his place and out survive him. ;)

Reev
12-16-2009, 08:01 AM
When we downed 25 Deathwhisper the other night, we had me (a warrior) on the side with the 2-3 fanatics (3 when one spawned on the stairs because it would be misdirected to me). I found that as a warrior I was best prepared to handle these mobs when compared with our bear or paladin tanks. With Shockwave, I can keep them stunned 1/5 of the time, with concussion blow, I can keep the third, if there's a third stunned until at least one of the fanatics is dead. Whenever the stuns were down, I'd always use Shield Block. If all of those were down and I had 3 adds, I'd pop Shield Wall. It ended up not being that bad. In addition to all of this, shield slam purges the buffs from them, helping them to die faster.

Keep in mind, however, that the larger damage ability that the fanatics do, their cleave, is shadow damage, and not physical, so extra armor is not much use on this fight. I also use the Ony helm and ring to tank this, so I have a fair amount of shadow resistance with the druid mark, which probably helps quite a bit.

Sark
12-16-2009, 08:21 AM
Honestly, if a warrior is failing on Deathwhisper adds, he is just not doing it right. They are (imo) the strongest tank for this part of the fight because of all the utility they provide.

1. TC + Demo to debuff the all the adds.
2. Shield slam to remove the mobs buffs.
3. Stuns/interrupts to position and control the mobs (keep them in front of you while not cleaving your dps).
4. If a deformed fanatic comes up, use a cooldown (and try to stunlock it as much as possible).
5. Spell Reflect is a nice bonus too.

Sark
12-16-2009, 08:31 AM
As for Shield Blocking...yeah. Guilty as charged. I'm using it to pump up my Shield Slam as opposed to a defensive use. Will give it a whirl in a more defensive use and see how that helps out.

This is not bad either though, you just have to be smart about it (on deathwhisper adds I use it offensively, on Gormok/Saurfang I use it defensively, etc). Establishing solid aggro on adds right as they spawn makes it easier to position them, ensures that dps can burn them down faster, and gives you free GCDs to put up debuffs, interrupt the caster, etc - that kind of stuff adds to your survivability as well.

Reev
12-16-2009, 08:36 AM
This is not bad either though, you just have to be smart about it (on deathwhisper adds I use it offensively, on Gormok/Saurfang I use it defensively, etc). Establishing solid aggro on adds right as they spawn makes it easier to position them, ensures that dps can burn them down faster, and gives you free GCDs to put up debuffs, interrupt the caster, etc - that kind of stuff adds to your survivability as well.

Our tanks don't even tank the adherents. They can typically be locked down by the melee dps pretty well, and if they do get off a few casts, they don't do enough damage for it to be a big deal. Our healers just heal through any damage they put out. This helps our DPS avoid taking cleaves to the face from the Fanatics as well, with the positioning issues WoW has had lately. This also makes it much easier for the tanks to concentrate more on just grabbing the couple of fanatics and then concentrating on survival and threat instead of having to try to position the mobs correctly to pick up the adherent without killing your melee.

Sark
12-16-2009, 08:45 AM
Our tanks don't even tank the adherents.

Yeah, I don't really either because the dps can lock them down pretty good, but I have been on the double fanatic side both times too. I am ready to do a taunt/HT if the aoe gets dropped on the adherent though, and if it gets empowered or reanimated I help out. For the double adherent side though it would be a little different (paly/DK are probably better suited to handle that side).

mistersix
12-16-2009, 08:55 AM
Barring 'shit outta luck' scenario's where you take an impale + melee swing and not enough heals land in the .5 or so seconds healers have to give you some it's quite doable not to go squish. However, it takes thinking out the order in which you use your cooldowns. After I did that I very, very rarely go squish. And your tank has better gear than I have.

However, it does require planning. Gearing for hit rating in Tier 9 content isn't exactly handy - you'd be amazed how much difference it makes to vigilance another tank or if you want to be safe, run the glyph of taunt.

^^ This.

Zothor
12-16-2009, 10:51 AM
I know it is a jerk thing to say also, But have you considered diversifying your tank group a little more?

But I suppose my point is that we have found rolling with a lot of the same types of tank at the same time can highly limit your options, and if that is all you have to work with then your warriors have to find a way to make it happen.

I don't feel it's a jerk thing to say at all - I think it's entirely accurate. I've made the latter point to my guild several times, particularly regarding recruiting, but we operate on a small population (Spinebreaker US - Alliance consists of less than 20% of the pop, maybe even less given the slew of faction transfers) and everyone knows that tanking spots are relatively rare, so recruiting quality full time tanks is tough. I've had one DK tank in over a year and he's terrible, and another recruit who just hasn't shown up at all in the two weeks he's been "trialing." God bless a druid if I could get one, but our flexy druid tank is such insane DPS he's never gone back to tanking. So yeah, I have all shield tanks. And no, I don't like the lack of flexibility. Can't tell you how many times I've been like "can someone death gri-.... I don't have DK."

As much as I like class differentiation, certain mechanics are just so good for specific situations that it's frustrating sometimes.

Cris, when I want your opinion I will give it to you!!! You are totally not supposed to threadstalk me even when I inform you I've been polling tankspot for advice. Damn you son, damn you! :P

As for the last poster's suggestion to vig a tank, it's actually probably a great idea for Saurfang, but our DPS may kill a bitch if I steal their vig.

Squirrelnut
12-16-2009, 01:46 PM
Incoming Wall-o-text...

It always surprises me when I see threads like this because my experience is so entirely different. I am a Prot Warrior and am our guild's main tank. I have had no trouble at all in clearing 4/4 both 10m & 25m ICC and our healers generally think I am the easiest to keep alive (similar to our Druid tank). I am well aware that we have a mechanical disadvantage to Pallys and Druids but if you know all the ins & outs of the Prot Warrior class you can ninja your way as tank that puts out good aggro and is as easy to keep alive as anyone else (it just takes a lot more effort).

Honestly I don't think it has anything to do with your Warrior's gear or spec after looking at the Warrior's armory you linked since his gear is virtually the same as mine. I am not currently glyphed for Shield Wall or Imp Disciplines. The issue is that most Warriors simply don't use all the tricks available to them as efficiently as possible with the precise timing required. In most cases little things make BIG differences. Here are some examples


Gormok: EASY to handle as a Prot Warrior, requires nothing more then simple cooldown timing and you virtually GUARANTEE that you will not be killed.

Indestructible pot & Shield Block the first rotation
Last Stand & Trinket & Shield Block the second rotation
Shield Wall & Shield Block the third rotation
If you time your cooldowns correctly (hitting them a half second before the 1st impale) they easily cover both impales in your rotation which makes you easy to keep up even on heroic 25m with an impale/tick/melee all at the same time


Twins: cake, just avoid orbs and throw up a cooldown whenever the twin that you aren't tanking gets the shield to make it easy for your healers
Anub'arak: Ideally you have an un-hittable block set as a Prot Warrior and thus make a perfect ad tank. When over 101.6% you are unhittable to the ads and if over 3k shield block value the amount of incoming damage is a joke if you use Shockwave & Shield Block & Trinkets efficiently
Marrowgar: Really not much to this as far as tanks are concerned, it is more about DPS killing spikes quickly so that people aren't impaled too long then anything else. Avoid the Cold Flame and his Whirlwind and you are done.
Deathwhisper Ads: This is a little more challenging but as a Prot Warrior we are great for this.

Heroic Throw, Warbringer charge, Thunderclap, position & Shockwave
Taunt anything not on you combined with spell reflect & shield bash to interrupt / silence / debuff the ads.
The only danger is when you get an empowered ad which you simply use a cooldown on since you really shouldn't need them for much else.
Space out your trinket/last stand use to make your healers lives easier.
Use concussion blow, imp revenge, shockwave, warbringer charge as much as possible because obviously stunned ads don't do any damage :)


Gunship: lol just don't be bad, if you are on offense make sure you tell people to leave @ 8 stacks and be off the boat by the 10th stack or you can go from full health to dead REALLY FAST
Saurfang: Fairly easy for tanks since it is really just Tank & Spank with some of your ranged playing games with the ads that spawn.

Make sure you use two tanks to make everyone's lives easier. Tank swap whenever he does Rune of Blood to greatly minimize his healing and the amount of damage your DPS will have to do.
Try not to fall asleep, once you take him past 30% start spacing out cooldowns to help your healers out since he hits hard and they are busy trying to keep the marked players alive as well.



Things to keep in mind for tanking in general:
- Flask for any progression fight
- Indestructible pots are your friend
- Commanding Shout, Thunderclap / Demo Shout / Sunder should have 100% uptime no excuses (unless a Pally overrides your demo shout lol)
- Warbringer use - we are the most mobile tanks, use it for rage generation, ad pickup and stuns.
- Shockwave use as a positional tool as well as threat generator / damage reduction. Especially in ICC when everything CONSTANTLY tries to run behind you, shockwave is huge in positioning things perfectly in front of you turned away from your DPS.
- Aggressive cooldown use: space out your Shield Wall, Last Stand, Trinkets, Shield Block, Stuns. If a fight doesn't have a clear cut cooldown usage requirement (Gormok) then use them efficiently to help your healers out. I think this is probably the biggest issue with most Prot Warriors, they don't use their cooldowns as offensively and intelligently as they should. People complain about OP Pally's Ardent thinggy... if you recognize the incoming damage and react accordingly there is no difference between it and our Last Stand (we just don't have it fire automatically when failing and dying lol).

As usual when it comes to gear and gemming I am a huge proponent of EH; avoidance and procs are nice but if something hits you really hard and there is nothing to be done about it I usually live and some other Prot Warriors don't :D

[/wall-o-text]

Erdinger
12-16-2009, 02:19 PM
Incoming Wall-o-text...

WALL OF TEXT

[/wall-o-text]

Had to register just say "Amen" to this.

This is what makes the difference between being a good tank, and just being #1 on Omen.

Kojiyama
12-16-2009, 04:12 PM
This is what makes the difference between being a good tank, and just being #1 on Omen.

While I agree with all the points, it's also worth noting that not all Paladin tanks are facerolling noobs incapable of matching the experience and skill of Warriors.

Our guild's Paladin tank happens to be an expert player who's been an officer for something like 4 years... so I put him on the same skill and experience level as me quite easily. All things being equal in that case, Paladins are quite superior on a number of occasions.

We do have a diverse tanking team, though, and having 5 year guild vets in basically Warrior, Paladin, DK, and Druid tanking roles keeps us quite covered based on how Blizzard decides to balance things or the encounters.

That said, I don't feel like it's all that unresonable to point out the simple fact: Paladins can survive more than Warriors can right now, simply due to how their class works.

Aggathon
12-16-2009, 04:30 PM
That said, I don't feel like it's all that unresonable to point out the simple fact: Paladins can survive more than Warriors can right now, simply due to how their class works.

I agree and don't agree at the same time. On the one hand, yes pallies stam scales better and they do have some pretty pro cooldowns, and all things consider AD is probably a better "oh crap" scenario button than last stand, but most of the time last stand will be just as good or not better.

This has all been said before, so I'll just again drop the manual vs. automatic comparison.

Wars
12-16-2009, 04:37 PM
Squirrel has it right, and really, the warrior is usually the "Best" tank. That only applies when it is people like us, who really really really know our class and can really chug those indestructible pots, keep our debuffs up 100% of the time, and stagger our cooldowns so there is always a high chance of either huge health pool or huge damage reduction on anything that matter.

Aethelas
12-16-2009, 11:56 PM
I don't think there's a best class (in the spirit of christmas, no class shouting okay?) I find the warrior to be the jack of all trades tank. We can do just about everything, but we need to do way more to make things work - we just need to juggle speccs, glyphs, pots, gearsets you name it.
If I look at the people I raid with, I'm the only one collecting more than one gearset. The only one that chucks armor pots. The only one that carries a ton of glyphs around and so on. In my world it just isn't the norm to work this hard for the same result.

Aggathon
12-17-2009, 12:14 AM
I don't think there's a best class (in the spirit of christmas, no class shouting okay?) I find the warrior to be the jack of all trades tank. We can do just about everything, but we need to do way more to make things work - we just need to juggle speccs, glyphs, pots, gearsets you name it.


MONKS ARE THE BEST TANK CLASS!!! ONLY CLASS THAT COMES CLOSE IS BARD!!!

Also: The removal of the bard class in 4th ed made me very sad.




If I look at the people I raid with, I'm the only one collecting more than one gearset. The only one that chucks armor pots. The only one that carries a ton of glyphs around and so on. In my world it just isn't the norm to work this hard for the same result.

I'm actually limited in the number of consumables I can carry because my bags are too full because of all my different gear sets.

Zothor
12-17-2009, 05:20 PM
all things consider AD is probably a better "oh crap" scenario button than last stand, but most of the time last stand will be just as good or not better.

I think you're only thinking about the autosave portion of ardent defender that gives you 30% of your health back.

The part of AD that's overpowered isn't the autosave - it's that all damage below 30% is reduced by 20%, effectively giving paladin tanks almost 8.5% extra effective health over comparably geared warriors. That's just not fair, as much as I love the fact that it makes me basically invincible.

In all seriousness though, that was a very useful wall of text, thank you. I've SEEN warriors not die. i KNOW it can be done. I just don't know -HOW- to do it, so I came here to get advice from someone who did.

Aggathon
12-17-2009, 05:49 PM
I think you're only thinking about the autosave portion of ardent defender that gives you 30% of your health back.

The part of AD that's overpowered isn't the autosave - it's that all damage below 30% is reduced by 20%, effectively giving paladin tanks almost 8.5% extra effective health over comparably geared warriors. That's just not fair, as much as I love the fact that it makes me basically invincible.

In all seriousness though, that was a very useful wall of text, thank you. I've SEEN warriors not die. i KNOW it can be done. I just don't know -HOW- to do it, so I came here to get advice from someone who did.

Ya, I was talking about the autosave, if you want to talk about damage reduction, depending on how hard a boss hits, shield block is just as good if not better, and you'll probably see that is more often than not the case in ICC. I can critical block for over 7k with shield block up, 3.5k-ish blocks normal with shield block up. That's whenever I need it, not just below 30% health, so I can prevent my healers from panicking before I even get that low. If I'm being hit for 14k (which I think is about standard at this point) then that's almost as good as shield wall every 30 seconds. I'd say that's good. It's about knowing when to use your cooldowns imo.

uglybbtoo
12-18-2009, 12:44 AM
The part of AD that's overpowered isn't the autosave - it's that all damage below 30% is reduced by 20%, effectively giving paladin tanks almost 8.5% extra effective health over comparably geared warriors. That's just not fair, as much as I love the fact that it makes me basically invincible.

In all seriousness though, that was a very useful wall of text, thank you. I've SEEN warriors not die. i KNOW it can be done. I just don't know -HOW- to do it, so I came here to get advice from someone who did.

AMEN to what the others have said DO IT RIGHT as they described

So lets look at your complaint about the pally EH and I am not exactly sure on the numbers but lets leave that for now. The pally can't silence
or stun as much as a warrior or spell reflect so in certain fights there only option is to EAT IT. We just took LOH off the pally so if he has used his shield wall cant use that anymore for 2min. So using your own argument what we have to do is take the EH off the pally give it more stuns and silences and spell reflect so it can survive the fights it will then struggle with.

Basically this whole argument ends in 4 tanks all with exactly the same abilities called different names.

The fact is that a pally is slightly easier to play than a warrior and to be honest that is what is contributing to a perception that pally's are more robust than warrior. Doing something wrong adds more damage difference than the small EH difference.

I play both and depending on what the fight is I find it easier on that tank the fight encounter favours.

If you aren't loving your warrior tank now compared to what they used to be like I don't think there is any hope.

My only complaint is Heroic strike spam and that's only because I have developed RSI in the finger tendon (and yes it's true not a joke). So I have to limit how long I play my warrior tank.

Quenchiest
12-19-2009, 12:16 PM
So far in 25man I haven't had any problems with oddly occurring deaths. On deathwhisper I tend to tank the 2 adherent side, with the add in the back generally being brought over to me as well. Essentially I just tank the fanatic while the DPS on my side takes out the two adherents. They die so quickly it's hardly an issue. Though this week we had 3 hunters just throwing out traps to trap 3 of the 7 adds and it made it ridiculously easy to manage.

On gunship I go over to tank the commander. Usually gets to about 7-8 stacks before the mage is dead, so no issues there. We pretty much go all in and only leave a couple people back on our ship when a mage comes up. Half the time I don't even take damage. No real issues on deathbringer as well, though one time I got gibbed but it was my own fault for pretty much tunnel visioning and I forgot to hit shield wall after taking a big hit.

Sliverspark
12-19-2009, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=Zothor;337333] He was dying earlier on Heroic Gormok, to the point where even with cooldowns I had to put him at the front of the rotation and back him up with paladins.


I raided Trial of the Crusader (25) last night, and I literally got demolished on Gormok. My gear is fairly sound for that particular raid. I'm not armed to the teeth, I would say above average any tanks gear level. There was a paladin main-tanking, and he didn't seem to have any trouble whatsoever tanking. I would say our gear is pretty much the same in terms of stats. My defense was higher than his, but he had about 2200 more health than me.

Here is a link to my character: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadow+Council&n=Valvelis)

I can't remember the name of the paladin unfortunately, but what ended up happening, is a warrior DPS switched to tanking instead to replace me. His gear was a little higher than mine, but the same thing happened. He was getting crushed while the paladin didn't seem to have any troubles whatsoever. I will say that I use a slightly different protection talent build than most, there are some points I should have but I don't. Either way, it still doesn't matter because the other warrior had a raid protection spec to the tee.

I am troubled by this, and curious as to why I was getting destroyed in this fight. The only thing that would negate incoming damage was a disarm, and/or a shield block (not shield wall, shield block).

jere
12-19-2009, 02:15 PM
Not sure of a couple things there, but if you mean ToGC25, then you really aren't geared for it and you really aren't using the right kind of trinkets for that fight. 33k unbuffed health is not a good starting point for ToGC 25. It is designed for a bit stronger requirements.

Surmaaja
12-19-2009, 02:55 PM
Here is a link to my character: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadow+Council&n=Valvelis)

I am troubled by this, and curious as to why I was getting destroyed in this fight. The only thing that would negate incoming damage was a disarm, and/or a shield block (not shield wall, shield block).

First of all your spec is awful;allways max out Deflection and Anticipation, get rid of imp. spell reflect (its useless on most boss fights) and drop points from Punture also. Piercing Howl is nice for faction champions and maybe a little help with anub araks little adds in burrow phase but outside those its pretty useless in pve.
Get maxed improved disciplines and glyph shield wall and last stand if you feel like you are running low on cd's during fights.
Enchant / gem your gear correctly, theres no need to gem defense after you'v hit 540. Check Aggathon's recently released guide for example: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/60155-aggs-prot-war-tanking-guide.html

mistersix
12-19-2009, 02:56 PM
[QUOTE=Zothor;337333]I am troubled by this, and curious as to why I was getting destroyed in this fight. The only thing that would negate incoming damage was a disarm, and/or a shield block (not shield wall, shield block).

Assuming as Jere is ToGC then it's worth noting you can't disarm Gormok.

protonly
12-19-2009, 09:45 PM
In all seriousness though, that was a very useful wall of text, thank you. I've SEEN warriors not die. i KNOW it can be done. I just don't know -HOW- to do it, so I came here to get advice from someone who did.

Sometimes it is luck or the rng. For the most part things should be equal. The only thing I've seen where the pally has the edge over a warrior is situations where AD saves their ass since it is automatic and I die b/c I didn't hit a cd fast enough or situations where I've got all my cds down and he can still AD things.

uglybbtoo
12-21-2009, 12:43 AM
Not sure of a couple things there, but if you mean ToGC25, then you really aren't geared for it and you really aren't using the right kind of trinkets for that fight. 33k unbuffed health is not a good starting point for ToGC 25. It is designed for a bit stronger requirements.

^ THIS ^

You shouldn't be in there with those stats and I really don't care if your a pally or warrior it's too dangerous.

It would have been interesting to see a link to the pally you are comparing yourself too.

Aggathon
12-21-2009, 12:54 AM
http://www.arcorion.com/images/dtga.jpg

Sorry... saying it's too dangerous made me think of this, and I just had to post it. I'm working on my 5th night in a row working a 13+ hour shift, I'm actually probably going to try and stretch this one out to a 15 hour shift so that I only have to work 12 hours on Wednesday. So... my posting may be a little loopy for the next few hours. Thank god I get the next 2 days off.

Aggathon
12-21-2009, 12:59 AM
Actually... this would be more accurate:

http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/45076/1_Tank.JPG

uglybbtoo
12-21-2009, 10:11 AM
Only it should be an iraqi version of the tank .. say a VW with armor re-enforcement and then flattened by a large rock.

Squirrelnut
12-21-2009, 12:57 PM
Sometimes it is luck or the rng. For the most part things should be equal. The only thing I've seen where the pally has the edge over a warrior is situations where AD saves their ass since it is automatic and I die b/c I didn't hit a cd fast enough or situations where I've got all my cds down and he can still AD things.

I don't know why this thread is still being posted on but since it is I thought I would respond to this.... NO!

Gormok is nothing more then a precise timed encounter, AD versus reaction time should have NOTHING to do with it. It doesn't matter if a Pally or Warrior is tanking because DBM makes it incredibly easy by giving you information on exactly how many seconds before each impale so that you can use your cooldowns accordingly.

All you have to do is pay attention to the fight timing mechanics and use your cooldowns precisely. RNG refers to the random chance that you might get impaled/melee hit/tick all at the same time, however if you timed your cooldowns correctly it won't matter because you should still survive even if you have the bad RNG to be hit by all 3 at once.

For example: looking at a 3 tank rotation you generally get around 15 impale hits so...


Tank #1 - Impale 1 & 2, fairly week just use shield block
Tank #2 - Impale 3 & 4, same as above
Tank #3 - Impale 5 & 6, same as above but perhaps throw an armor pot and or trinket to help out
Tank #1 - Impale 7 & 8, Last Stand & Enraged Regen & Shield Block & Trinket
Tank #2 - Impale 9 & 10, same as above
Tank #3 - Impale 11 & 12, same as above
Tank #1 - Impale 13 & 14, Shield Wall & Shield Block
Tank #2 - Impale 15 & 16 if required, same as above

Basically if you spread out your cooldowns as mentioned above you have something up for every single tanking rotation of two impales. You should press your cooldown such as Shield Wall about half a second before the first impale hits you so that it covers the second impale as well (this is what a lot of tanks fail at = Shield Wall runs out just before the 2nd impale so no cooldown up on the 2nd and most powerful impale = 1 shot).

Following this approach his hardest hitting attacks will only be doing 40-60% of their damage to you depending on whether you glyphed for Shield Wall. Either way, combine that with Shield Block and you shouldn't have much problem living through the worst possible RNG.

Unless you badly under-gear the instance, any tank class should have no problem surviving through Gormok on 25m Heroic ToC if cooldowns are correctly used.

EDIT: If you are the worst geared you could be the 3rd tank in the rotation so you only tank him for 2 sets of impales and would use Last Stand/Enraged Regen for the first and Shield Wall for the second without having to worry about taking him a 3rd time when stacks of the rising anger buff makes him hit really hard.

protonly
12-22-2009, 04:57 AM
RNG refers to the random chance that you might get impaled/melee hit/tick all at the same time, however if you timed your cooldowns correctly it won't matter because you should still survive even if you have the bad RNG to be hit by all 3 at once.

The only problem with that statement is that since it is RNG you can't know it will happen and if you don't know when it will happen then why would you hit a cd? I believe I do get your point and your right in theory.

In practice however its usually something like a healer having to move/stop healing where the real RNG hits the fan. That's where an auto-cd like AD that doesn't involve reaction time is worth more than last stand + shield wall -- to me AD seems way more "healer friendly." I'm not sure why but on gunship 10 man I get absolutely tore up when I board the horde ship and I'm pretty sure it ain't my gear - simply put if I don't pop a cd every time I jump over then I will die unless I am 100% topped off b/c Sarufang hits so fast and hard and I can't go that one second w/o heal spam. Throw our pally over whom I outgear and let his AD give him an extra two seconds to jump over. Other bosses are the same - a healer gets impaled/spiked/dc/whatever and stops healing and something like AD can automatically provide that extra second or two to live because generally the tank won't know when the healer stops healing (unless they call it out, I wish they would). "Uhh...guys, I went 2.4 seconds without a heal, can you explain that?"

To Zolthor, the OP: This might sound stupid, and it is, but make sure your healers aren't disconnecting a crap ton in ICC. I learned last night that some of our healers will just disconnect when the bone spike or whatever from the first boss in ICC hits them or near them and one tank healer getting d/c is enough to make any tank seem like they are melting.

jere
12-22-2009, 05:43 AM
You can't know exactly when it will happen, but you do know what window of time it will happen in (at least for the Gormok example). Since tank cooldowns typically have a duration, this makes it a bit easier to hit.

Reev
12-22-2009, 06:32 AM
The only problem with that statement is that since it is RNG you can't know it will happen and if you don't know when it will happen then why would you hit a cd? I believe I do get your point and your right in theory.

In practice however its usually something like a healer having to move/stop healing where the real RNG hits the fan. That's where an auto-cd like AD that doesn't involve reaction time is worth more than last stand + shield wall -- to me AD seems way more "healer friendly." I'm not sure why but on gunship 10 man I get absolutely tore up when I board the horde ship and I'm pretty sure it ain't my gear - simply put if I don't pop a cd every time I jump over then I will die unless I am 100% topped off b/c Sarufang hits so fast and hard and I can't go that one second w/o heal spam. Throw our pally over whom I outgear and let his AD give him an extra two seconds to jump over. Other bosses are the same - a healer gets impaled/spiked/dc/whatever and stops healing and something like AD can automatically provide that extra second or two to live because generally the tank won't know when the healer stops healing (unless they call it out, I wish they would). "Uhh...guys, I went 2.4 seconds without a heal, can you explain that?"

To Zolthor, the OP: This might sound stupid, and it is, but make sure your healers aren't disconnecting a crap ton in ICC. I learned last night that some of our healers will just disconnect when the bone spike or whatever from the first boss in ICC hits them or near them and one tank healer getting d/c is enough to make any tank seem like they are melting.

You were probably getting torn up on the Horde ship because you were tanking Saurfang. SAURFANG.

jere
12-22-2009, 07:12 AM
One of our tanks was commenting about using the jet packs to kite him. Land, hit him, take off, rinse repeat. It was supposedly funny to watch. Unfortunately I wasn't there to see it =/

Squirrelnut
12-22-2009, 07:42 AM
The only problem with that statement is that since it is RNG you can't know it will happen and if you don't know when it will happen then why would you hit a cd?
You know when impales hit, DBM blatantly tells you. There is no mystery about it and since you have cooldowns planned for every pair of impales you know EXACTLY when to hit a cd (.5 seconds before the first one hits). Whether RNG decides that a melee/tick hit at the same time as that impale it really doesn't matter because you have a cooldown up anyway based on the timing mechanics of the fight.

I think many people think AD is so great because it allows you to not know fights / not pay attention and get away with it. Warriors have to be prepared and keep track of fight mechanics and debuffs for Last Stand to have similar effectiveness or they will "melt" when played with a lack of attentiveness like most Paladin tanks get away with (Obviously there are good Paladins too). That doesn't particularly bother me since in general Warriors require more skill and effort to play well and it gives good ones a challenge :D


-- to me AD seems way more "healer friendly." I'm not sure why but on gunship 10 man I get absolutely tore up when I board the horde ship and I'm pretty sure it ain't my gear - simply put if I don't pop a cd every time I jump over then I will die unless I am 100% topped off b/c Sarufang hits so fast and hard and I can't go that one second w/o heal spam.


AD is not 'healer friendly' it is 'bad tank' friendly. Healers don't care what mechanic keeps you alive as long as you aren't dead. Good Prot Warriors know fight mechanics and watch for incoming damage versus remaining health so that they can proactively use cooldowns so it makes no difference. Bad tanks die and blame their healers while pretending they don't see the unused cooldowns sitting on their bar and wish they had AD to do it for them.
Gunship is all about the stacks, be off before they ever get to 10. You won't be over there that much so using a cooldown for each time isn't that much of an issue, also you don't have to constantly tank him since no one is attacking, just get some initial threat.

Bodasafa
12-22-2009, 08:31 AM
One of our tanks was commenting about using the jet packs to kite him. Land, hit him, take off, rinse repeat. It was supposedly funny to watch. Unfortunately I wasn't there to see it =/

I am the Boarding Party tank and this is exactly how I "tank" him on 10/25. Its more of a kite really. I jump over heroic throw him in the face, shield slam, thunder clap and start Jet packing around as fast as I can.

I believe they changed it recently so he now throws axes at you so he will still gain stacks even if your not in melee range. However reducing the direct melee attacks he dishes out by kiting still seems like a better plan than eating him while your crew destroys the battle mage.

Quenchiest
12-22-2009, 10:56 AM
One of our tanks was commenting about using the jet packs to kite him. Land, hit him, take off, rinse repeat. It was supposedly funny to watch. Unfortunately I wasn't there to see it =/

The first and last time I tried this I jetpacked around a couple times before clipping through the ship and dying.

Laughed so hard.

Kojiyama
12-24-2009, 02:59 AM
I am the Boarding Party tank and this is exactly how I "tank" him on 10/25. Its more of a kite really. I jump over heroic throw him in the face, shield slam, thunder clap and start Jet packing around as fast as I can.

I believe they changed it recently so he now throws axes at you so he will still gain stacks even if your not in melee range. However reducing the direct melee attacks he dishes out by kiting still seems like a better plan than eating him while your crew destroys the battle mage.

His throw applies a rather nasty DoT now, so I actually think you take less damage in melee range, honestly.

He decided to not run at me yesterday and just toss Axes at me instead (I was just standing on the ship in a normal place though) and after a handful of Axes his 'Rending Throw' dot effect was ticking for 28k, and continued to tick multiple times after reboarding our ship. :P

mistersix
12-24-2009, 11:16 AM
His throw applies a rather nasty DoT now, so I actually think you take less damage in melee range, honestly.

I've been debating this in my head too.

saxie
12-26-2009, 04:51 PM
No pun intended, warrior is all about timing cd's especially at gormok, and especially when it had just been realesed, it got nerfed like the second day or third day... yet we managed to kill with 2 warriors and 1 paladin before it. Where on our first tries me and the other warrior were hitting the dust faster than we could say oshit the paladin was sitting comofrtably under an AD debuff :mad:

Time cds, especially as he starts tossing them kobolds, usually the second time round when you get to tank.

Paladin is pretty much easier to play with - threat wise and survivability wise because of retarded mechanics, if you cant stand the heat stay out of the kitchen and reroll paladin ;p

Drork
01-02-2010, 05:18 AM
Ok Ive done some reading and Ive looked at the specs.

Firstly if he is using one spec for trash and one spec for boss. Tell him to drop the trash spec for progression fights. I hope it is actually one spec for heroics and one spec for raids.

A few things that probably need to be reinforced.
VS trash dont under estimate the power of improved revenge 50% change for a mob to do no damage for 3 seconds is actually quite powerful. Particularly when combined with shockwave usage. The extra 20% damage on the ability is nothing to be sneezed at as far as threat goes either, not to mention the extra with heroic strike.

Improve spell reflect is doing little for you in a raid setting. If a spell needs to (and can be avoided) it should be kicked/shield bashed. I could be wrong but spell reflect will not help you against any (if I am wrong then most) spell that you cant kick/shield bash. It doesnt work on AoE spells. Also it only covers the 4 closest people so may not even cover the target of random spells only a 1/5 of the raid is covered by it.

Something else the warrior should watch for is effects that might be afflicting him just before he goes down. Stuns for example make for dead tanks due to no blocks or parries. Position may also be something of important if he is getting cleaved by an add someone else is tanking.

Banterloft
01-04-2010, 02:10 PM
I know that at the begining of this thread it was said that this is not a healing problem but I beg to differ. I am not a tank, I am a disc priest healer. The trouble is that tanks that are scooping up adds or taking the cleave hit are often forgotten as far as preperation goes for the healers. When we moved into TOGC, our warrior tanks started taking alot of dmg, especially on Gorok, where pallies just plugged along as usual. I transfered myself over to the warrior tank, just to see if it was a gear issue or a heal issue. I started stacking grace/shield/renew on the warrior before the impales and everything went just fine. I am now doing the same to our warrior who is scooping up adds in ICC and he can tank them just fine. He did have to place points back into shielding and I placed points back into improved renew to take some of the spikes off his dmg. I'm not saying that this is a fix, however I believe that tanks and healers are in this together. If one of us is off our game then we both die. Working diffrent healers or diffrent rotations and alittle preperation such as buff bars and watching the boss/inc specials instead of just watching the grid bars help alot. If you know whats coming as a tank you can use CDs to help the healer, but if your healer doesn't know whats coming then his CDs are sitting there as his tank is dying. Also, I've noticed in ICC that overhealing be damned. We have massive mana pools now and I would rather overheal then let my tank die.

Just a thought.

Insahnity
01-04-2010, 02:25 PM
One of our tanks was commenting about using the jet packs to kite him. Land, hit him, take off, rinse repeat. It was supposedly funny to watch. Unfortunately I wasn't there to see it =/

It's not funny unless there is hawt rocketpack bear ass involved.