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View Full Version : Paladin Threat Gen with Chill of the Throne



abqmedic77
12-10-2009, 08:37 PM
I tanked 25 man normal ICC last night. My threat gen and DPS were absolutely insane. I ended the night with 4.2k dps and I had to back off of targets that I wasn't tanking or I would pull them.

This is my gear (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aegwynn&n=Creosmalkor) as you can see, I'm not uber geared at all. However, I decided to go for a BV/ mitigation build and have kept several lower ilevel pieces purely for their BV.

The only thing I can think of, is that raid buffed, my BV is over 3k so I am well above the cap for threat contribution for HS/ShoR and my avoidance just dropped by 20% (CotT) so I am blocking a lot more.

Have any other paladin tanks noticed a sharp increase in tanking threat gen?

Fledern
12-10-2009, 10:43 PM
I'm not a paladin but i have. A pala tank i've been doing ToGC10 with used to do about the same threat as me. If i worked on it i could come close to outaggroing him. Then 3.3 hits, we move onto icc10 and suddenly he was doing about 50% more threat, pulling mobs off me without even trying. There's definitely something going on

Khanor
12-12-2009, 04:03 AM
ICC is full of undead. Paladins do more damage against undead, ergo more threat.

ArgentSun
12-18-2009, 01:55 PM
Yarrr, me hearties! I am a new user.

And I am also a paladin, and every non-paladin tank has been complaining about me rage/RP starving them... Do you think our 7% (6% from Crusade, 1% from minor Glyph of Sense Undead) extra damage are really that big of a deal? I mean, I can start attacking one of the Deathbound Wards when it is at 75%, and by the time it's dead, I'd be above 90% of its tank's threat. I am burning tens of thousands lead threat.

MellvarTank
12-18-2009, 01:58 PM
Undead are to Paladins what chocolate bars are to Children (or crack to crackheads).

Suicyco
12-18-2009, 02:26 PM
Yeah a lot when you look at the added dps and threat pali's gain to undead, with glyph, crusade and the retarded amount of holy damage (being able to add holy wrath to my rotation is so yummy) in ICC. The big thing here is if your a tankadin and not holding threat (aside from Deathwhisper debuff) you seriously need to workout your rotation and spec. I cycled in Hand of Salv with the glyph for the dam. reduct simply because of the gross threat I'm pulling in there, even with Salv ticking I'm still staying well ahead of our druid or warrior. But it's in no way fair to the other classes to draw a comparison to them vs. a good pali tank in there.

Edgewalker
12-19-2009, 03:25 PM
Another thing that you have to realize is that paladins are at a faceroll level of ease for threat generation right now, and undead just increases that discrepancy. 7% becomes a larger number when you are already in the lead.

Martie
12-19-2009, 03:46 PM
Yeah, I've been noticing an increase in threat generation.

I also noticed some time ago that except for very specific situations, threat generation is a non-issue for tanks.
Sure, I need to hold back a bit when we swap tanks, but having to think a bit more while tanking isn't exactly a bad thing, and I think holding back a bit after a tank swap is always a smart thing to do.

Virall
12-19-2009, 09:29 PM
My guild's melee is a little trigger happy (They complain about every tank, in every instance about "not holding aggro" or not having enough threat) and they haven't whined at all in ICC. There is definitely been something on the backside boosting threat. Obviously Sense Undead, but they haven't said anything about warriors either.

protonly
12-19-2009, 09:32 PM
Do you think our 7% (6% from Crusade, 1% from minor Glyph of Sense Undead) extra damage are really that big of a deal? .

Yes, that 6-7% is HUGE. As a warrior, I had to respec, regear, and reglyph dropping anything threat related for survivability so my overall threat is way lower. The pally boost doesn't help me any lol. On threat sensitive fights gotta tell the pallys to "stop dots/aoe in advance of my taunt, take hands off keyboard, and wait for 2 devistates before attacking slowly again."

Edgewalker
12-21-2009, 03:12 PM
My guild's melee is a little trigger happy (They complain about every tank, in every instance about "not holding aggro" or not having enough threat) and they haven't whined at all in ICC. There is definitely been something on the backside boosting threat. Obviously Sense Undead, but they haven't said anything about warriors either.

No there isn't .
It's because it's a new instance so they are actually paying attention, they aren't sure what or when to DPS, or your warrior has upgraded his gear. There is no crazy, shady mechanic.

Hammerfists
12-22-2009, 01:43 AM
All i can say to my fellow pallie tanks is enjoy it while it lasts Cataclysm will have few if any undead. We also get 3 aoe moves to use consecrate, hammer of righteousness and holy wrath (which stuns). Aggro is a non issue especially with crusade in your spec.

If you dont have a pallie in your raid group for ICC i recommend getting one because for atleast trash they make life so much easier.

Irat
12-22-2009, 02:51 PM
Are we talking trash or bosses here? because you should have seen little to no difference on bosses. All the bosses in TotC apart from beasts were DUH so you we were getting the extra 3% from Crusade and the 1% from Glyph for most of them.

Perhaps it just because your not used to seeing Pally trash threat gen anymore?

jere
12-22-2009, 04:53 PM
Yeah, you are talking at most just 4% extra damage/threat. You won't even notice that. If you were doing 8k threat before, you will be doing 8320 threat. If you are doing 10k, you will be doing 10400. Not really something to conclude major changes from.

Daereg
12-22-2009, 05:21 PM
Well, the thrash threat at least, is the best threat so far, so easy to hold and pull off other classes. Our Undead AOE Stun does the job it seems.

As for bosses, threat is as good as it was in ToGC? I don't think your increased threat has anything to do with Chill of the Throne, more to do with Undead.

Satorri
12-23-2009, 05:50 AM
It may just have been a while since your new improved gear has seen trash.

Having those tasty little damage buffs combined with the reflective damage on multiple targets, plus Consecrate, glyphed HotR, and usable Holy Wrath? I'm not surprised many Protadins feel like threat gods in ICC. =)

Chamenas
12-23-2009, 06:01 AM
All i can say to my fellow pallie tanks is enjoy it while it lasts Cataclysm will have few if any undead. We also get 3 aoe moves to use consecrate, hammer of righteousness and holy wrath (which stuns). Aggro is a non issue especially with crusade in your spec.

If you dont have a pallie in your raid group for ICC i recommend getting one because for atleast trash they make life so much easier.

You act like Paladins won't have nice threat still when all this is over. If things stay the way they are, Paladins will still be top in threat, that's where they are now and it hasn't changed in ICC, I'm wondering why people seem to be just noticing this?

Satrina
12-23-2009, 06:06 AM
Sure, I need to hold back a bit when we swap tanks, but having to think a bit more while tanking isn't exactly a bad thing, and I think holding back a bit after a tank swap is always a smart thing to do.

Sadly, for every one like you there are more who will gleefully keep going full steam and then yell LOL UR BAD when they faceroll back to aggro.

Chamenas
12-23-2009, 06:11 AM
Sadly, for every one like you there are more who will gleefully keep going full steam and then yell LOL UR BAD when they faceroll back to aggro.

I'm so glad to know there's big-name (trinket names!) support for this concept! It's so ridiculous when people keep dishing out threat-generating abilities after a tank swap and go "I don't know how I got aggro back", meanwhile implying that you must suck for not being able to out aggro them in the 3 second window before your taunt loses its fixate. You're not DPS, no one cares if you have to stop damage for 15 seconds. Ugh.

Hammerfists
12-24-2009, 12:23 AM
LuLia I was just saying that before Wrath hit every Paladin knew that Naxx and the final raid on arthas would be our stomping ground. Lich King was and did have plenty of undead critters and Paladins were built for them. Cataclysm's story (and im stabbing in the dark here) doesnt appear that it will have any undead if just a few but im sure we'll see demons. With many DKs going blood we are the defacto aoe tank. On a boss i dont see my tps as deal breaker for other tanks but i do notice our initial threat can spike well.

Ive also have noticed tanks will continue to use threat abilities after an aggro switch. To me this is a dps mentality hold over where you feel you need to hit the boss hard or youre lazy. Our job is to create threat to allow dps to well dps hard and absorb damage. The day you see your abilities as threat generators and not damage dealers is the day you have began your long journey as a tank.

amilo
12-30-2009, 12:48 PM
in toc 10/25 I usually maint tank since I'm a palladin, my off tank(s) will hold the priority targets, and I'll snatch up the rest. I've put out up to 6.5k dps on a botch pull with 2 death bound wards, and 7-8 reg mobs hittin me, there were 3 others hitting the 2 off tanks in the back. out of the pallading 3 major threat abilities, one of them pounds 3 targets and is bathed in threat to the point it gathers your own party to attack you.

and yes, 4-5k dps while tanking isn't out of my reach in that place. while the druid/warrior/DK are sitting at 1.5-2.5k dps :/

Eisen
12-30-2009, 01:11 PM
Yeah pally threat in there is sick. Normally in aoe situations I can put out nearly as much as they do or sometimes better, but in icc they leave me in the dust. I've just decided my job in there with another pally around is to keep an eye on anything that casts and keep it shut down, and watch for stragglers.

Single-target I can still beat them, but it gets a lot closer than I'm used to seeing.

Proletaria
12-30-2009, 11:26 PM
You act like Paladins won't have nice threat still when all this is over. If things stay the way they are, Paladins will still be top in threat, that's where they are now and it hasn't changed in ICC, I'm wondering why people seem to be just noticing this?

I have to second this. Our prot pally has been tanking since Ulduar and his threat has always been superior to mine (as well as the prot warrior who recently quit) in a major way. ICC has proven an absurd example of how high paladin tps/dps while tanking can be in the right situtation, but it's certainly not as though paladins couldn't do the same thing before (though slightly less effective on non-undead).

The only thought I have to add is: does GC, or the dev team in general think this is ok? Completely voiding the fact that paladins are currently a very durable tank, and perhaps even if they were back at their 3.1 levels of effectiveness, would this kind of off-the-charts tps be acceptable?

I had always assumed they wanted threat to come back in wotlk as something to be concerned about as a tank. When i tanked with very geared dps (espcially certian classes that we're all aware of) in the last few patches I had to keep an eye on Omen. Out prot pally's only use for Omen is to make sure he isn't peeling a boss or add off of me when he cannot (or shouldn't) tank it because he has some kind of encounter-mechanic debuff that forces a tank switch.

I don't want this to turn into a "nerf pallies" thread, but i'd like to know if threat was intended to be trivialized like this for all tanks at some point? Were we all intended to get here by the end of t10 content, blissfully non-chalant about lucky crit streaks from fury warriors and locks? Or is this some unintended side-effect of the way paladins were built up in the last few patches?

Eisen
12-31-2009, 12:03 AM
I personall don't think there's a problem. Against an equally geared pally in tehre I can still top them on single-target aggro most of the time (unless it's a fight where I'm not getting hit often enough to feed rage, which is always a problem in any isntance.) On multi-mob aoe aggro, I lose. I'm OK with that. I mean pallies were built more around aoe than warriors are. AOE wise the numbers might be a little higher than what I'd call balanced, but as long as I'm not getting passed up in groups in favor of a pally, I don't care.

Avatariku
01-02-2010, 03:56 AM
I personall don't think there's a problem. Against an equally geared pally in tehre I can still top them on single-target aggro most of the time (unless it's a fight where I'm not getting hit often enough to feed rage, which is always a problem in any isntance.) On multi-mob aoe aggro, I lose. I'm OK with that. I mean pallies were built more around aoe than warriors are. AOE wise the numbers might be a little higher than what I'd call balanced, but as long as I'm not getting passed up in groups in favor of a pally, I don't care.

In todays wow the niches of certain classes, not saying any class in specific, being something like the single target tank, or the AoE tank are gone in actual game. In single target department every tank is somewhat within a very small % of each other, and I think that is a huge accomplishment from blizzard, so kudos to them.

But AoE is a part of tanking, regardless if some people deny its importance, it is a part of a tank, and thus i would like to assume that we should have, and do have, tools to handle said AoE situations. Our tools have grown since wrath came out. The ol' examples of how warriors USED to AoE tank aren't valid, we don't care how we as warriors used to tank, because that is the past. I am sure many won't agree on this but I really couldn't care less.

And for a very long time warrior AoE was known to be slightly weaker than other classes, but we made due with effort, even though many will deny this fact. But over time, as gear progresses, a slight gap between 2 classes, can become bigger and bigger. And in ICC paladins are shining, it is a good thing to feel that much power, but WoW is not a place of niches in tanking anymore. And it seems the AoE niche of the paladins is making the gap that was already existing, much larger.

I do play a warrior, and I'm sure I will be viewed as, ZOMG a warrior AoE QQ post, I'm almost 100% sure it will happen. But the already existing niche ideals of AoE tanking=Paladin is growing by the day.

I don't know if it just the warriors or other tanks but I do tank along side a DK, and a paladin in our 25 raids. The Dk is frost, similar gear than mine, and paladin outgears me slightly, bastard has the weapon I want. But lately I have started to notice the numbers on recount. My curiousity began in lady deathwhisper's room. My guild has the paladin, and only paladin, run in, pick up both benches mobs, group them up, and tank them. Me and the Dk then pick up w/e we can, which I end up picking up maybe 2 mobs off of him since I have NO rage to keep any sort of good rotation going, and so does the DK. After the pull, yes the paladin survived, I looked at recount. It said his dps was 7k. I was amazed, how does he pull that much dps? and only 1 mob escaped from the group, and that was a caster.

Now following this situation I started to get curious and In ICC 10, same pull, the DK did the same thing, I tried to keep mobs with me as well, but was only able to keep 2 mobs since again, NO rage to keep anything on me. And during the pull, I saw her damage go up to 6.5k.

Now I don't generaly run with a druid, so I don't have much thought on those, but first thing, is that no way could I do that AoE pull without major outside assistance, tricks or MD, and in a situation where I tanked them, I have never spiked to that high of damage in meters. The only time I do much higher damage is when I tank heroics in DPS gear.

Idk about the general publics situation, but I know mine, and I'm a good tank and I know what I'm doing 99% of the time, of course I'm not perfect and thus I still have alot that I could learn. But I know my limitations, firstly I don't think I coulda tanked that ICC 25 pull like the paladin could, at least not without major struggling the healers and myself with poping CDs, and even so, I am almost 80% positive I couldn't pull those numbers which in turn turns into threat.

Sorry for the wall of text. bash me all you want.

To sum up my opinion: We have the tools to AoE tank. We just don't have the AoE to fit into the wrath style of tanking. It requires alot more work to produce results than other classes. Imo having to work much harder than others doesn't make a class unique, just means you will have a tired/sore wrist by the end of the night.

Akeber
01-02-2010, 07:30 AM
I don't know if it just the warriors or other tanks but I do tank along side a DK, and a paladin in our 25 raids. The Dk is frost, similar gear than mine, and paladin outgears me slightly, bastard has the weapon I want. But lately I have started to notice the numbers on recount. My curiousity began in lady deathwhisper's room. My guild has the paladin, and only paladin, run in, pick up both benches mobs, group them up, and tank them. Me and the Dk then pick up w/e we can, which I end up picking up maybe 2 mobs off of him since I have NO rage to keep any sort of good rotation going, and so does the DK. After the pull, yes the paladin survived, I looked at recount. It said his dps was 7k. I was amazed, how does he pull that much dps? and only 1 mob escaped from the group, and that was a caster.

Now following this situation I started to get curious and In ICC 10, same pull, the DK did the same thing, I tried to keep mobs with me as well, but was only able to keep 2 mobs since again, NO rage to keep anything on me. And during the pull, I saw her damage go up to 6.5k.

He who makes the pull gets the mobs. Let a warrior/DK/druid go in first followed by a pally and you'll see an oom paladin struggling to pick up the odd loose mob. Taunting aside, the same will happen regardless of which tank class you send in first.

What we have here is a chicken-or-the-egg scenario. Warriors complain that their AEO threat sucks. Raid leaders listen and send in other tanks first to make sure all the mobs get picked up, telling the warrior to grab looses ones. The effect of this is that the warrior only ends up tanking a couple of mobs (probably casters too), they get no rage and, surprise surprise, their AOE threat ends up being terrible.

TBH our warrior tank isn't great, but let him go in and make the initial pull and he'll have almost everything stick to him just fine. I can consecrate and HotR my ass off, but I'll just be oom and tanking the one or two mobs I single targeted.

If the concern is solely on the trash DPS front, then I'll say what I do to trigger happy aoe DPSers. It's trash. It's all going to die, no one cares about how much damage you do on trash unless you're wiping on it, and if that's the case you've got bigger problems.


To sum up my opinion: We have the tools to AoE tank. We just don't have the AoE to fit into the wrath style of tanking. It requires alot more work to produce results than other classes. Imo having to work much harder than others doesn't make a class unique, just means you will have a tired/sore wrist by the end of the night.

I recently rolled a warrior tank to see how the other shield class lives. She's only lvl 76, but I've been tanking a ton of 5 mans since the LFG came out and, so far, I don't think warriors are at any disadvantage. Shockwave/tclap both have awesome snap threat capabilities. Having two separate AOE threat moves comes in handy all the time. Charge/intercept/intervene are amazing abilities when used properly. Single target theat, I'm spiking over 3K tps using a lv 68 blue quality weapon (it's got a nice chunk of expertice). My healers say the same thing about my lowbie warrior as my geared paladin, "boring to heal"...."I'm going to start dpsing" etc. etc.

Yes, there are more buttons to push, but not in a bad way. The best thing I did was assign heroic stike to mousewheel up and cleave to mousewheel down. This allows me to use all the GCD abilities with my left hand while spamming whatever on-next-swing ability applies.

The grass isn't always "greener", just different.

Avatariku
01-02-2010, 02:47 PM
He who makes the pull gets the mobs. Let a warrior/DK/druid go in first followed by a pally and you'll see an oom paladin struggling to pick up the odd loose mob. Taunting aside, the same will happen regardless of which tank class you send in first.

What we have here is a chicken-or-the-egg scenario. Warriors complain that their AEO threat sucks. Raid leaders listen and send in other tanks first to make sure all the mobs get picked up, telling the warrior to grab looses ones. The effect of this is that the warrior only ends up tanking a couple of mobs (probably casters too), they get no rage and, surprise surprise, their AOE threat ends up being terrible.

TBH our warrior tank isn't great, but let him go in and make the initial pull and he'll have almost everything stick to him just fine. I can consecrate and HotR my ass off, but I'll just be oom and tanking the one or two mobs I single targeted.

If the concern is solely on the trash DPS front, then I'll say what I do to trigger happy aoe DPSers. It's trash. It's all going to die, no one cares about how much damage you do on trash unless you're wiping on it, and if that's the case you've got bigger problems.



I recently rolled a warrior tank to see how the other shield class lives. She's only lvl 76, but I've been tanking a ton of 5 mans since the LFG came out and, so far, I don't think warriors are at any disadvantage. Shockwave/tclap both have awesome snap threat capabilities. Having two separate AOE threat moves comes in handy all the time. Charge/intercept/intervene are amazing abilities when used properly. Single target theat, I'm spiking over 3K tps using a lv 68 blue quality weapon (it's got a nice chunk of expertice). My healers say the same thing about my lowbie warrior as my geared paladin, "boring to heal"...."I'm going to start dpsing" etc. etc.

Yes, there are more buttons to push, but not in a bad way. The best thing I did was assign heroic stike to mousewheel up and cleave to mousewheel down. This allows me to use all the GCD abilities with my left hand while spamming whatever on-next-swing ability applies.

The grass isn't always "greener", just different.

If you are having tricks/MDs going off at the start of a pull, and keep doing so each time its up if the pull lasts that long, no tank is going to lose aggro. So in a decent raid environment with a rogue or 2, noone should be losing threat in AoE. But have no tricks, no MDs, and let the warrior go in and get a TC off before the paladin starts his AoE. Given similar gear/skill, the paladin will pull off the warrior with ease, and will end up with more than half the mobs on him. Unless the paladin literaly waits 15-20 secs, he will pull off the warrior if no outside help is being given. My point being, Warrior AoE threat shouldnt be balanced around having tricks/md going off. No tanks should imo. Based on raw threat done paladins come out on top, always have, but now in ICC, its ridiculous. Can't beat them.

As for your warrior, I'm glad you want to see the other side, but no offense, while leveling threat shouldn't be an issue even with lesser gear. I am not going to take anything you take concerning warriors seriously until you start raiding more of todays content. Leveling tanking =\= raid tanking, think this is common sense I believe.

And with a geared tank ANY healer is going to complain they are too easy to heal. But this isn't a thread about how easy a tank is to heal, it is about threat.

Just saying, in a raid environment, it is hard to see what is going on in terms of AoE threat since there is usualy tricks or mds going off to help the tank. One experience I have actualy done is having me thunderclap as soon as the mobs stand in DnD and the "snap" threat helped none, they completely ignored me and stayed on the DK, this was done without any threat helper.

Akeber
01-03-2010, 10:27 AM
One experience I have actualy done is having me thunderclap as soon as the mobs stand in DnD and the "snap" threat helped none, they completely ignored me and stayed on the DK, this was done without any threat helper.

FYI DnD is more TPS than consecrate. Did you try the experiment the other way? You make the pull, Tclap+showckwave, and then see if the D&D would pull off you? I'm guessing it wouldn't.


As for your warrior, I'm glad you want to see the other side, but no offense, while leveling threat shouldn't be an issue even with lesser gear. I am not going to take anything you take concerning warriors seriously until you start raiding more of todays content. Leveling tanking =\= raid tanking, think this is common sense I believe.

I'm sorry that you feel your opinions about prot paladin threat, a class/spec that you don't state having ever played, are more valid than my opinions about warrior threat, that I've at least played through 78 levels.

By that logic you shouldn' have bothered typing anything in reference to paladins or DKs, unless you have experience on max level raiding toons of both class that you failed to mention.

Avatariku
01-03-2010, 01:02 PM
FYI DnD is more TPS than consecrate. Did you try the experiment the other way? You make the pull, Tclap+showckwave, and then see if the D&D would pull off you? I'm guessing it wouldn't.



I'm sorry that you feel your opinions about prot paladin threat, a class/spec that you don't state having ever played, are more valid than my opinions about warrior threat, that I've at least played through 78 levels.

By that logic you shouldn' have bothered typing anything in reference to paladins or DKs, unless you have experience on max level raiding toons of both class that you failed to mention.

I tried thunderclapping followed by DnD within about 1-2 secs. Kept a few mobs but lost most to the frost DK.

Never said your opinions on warriors were completely invalid. But until you start raiding with your warrior on a competitive level, then any opinion you have with them when it comes to AoE tanking, aren't extremely valid because while leveling any tank can keep threat on anything if played decently. Threat while leveling is a almost non existant mechanic.

Tanking along side players with similar skill gives you more ground to base your opinions on because it is within the same area of your own class. You can experiment using their character as the subject of the experiment. Although it is always nice to have similar geared tanks within your account, at maxed level and base your opinions on that. But saying my lvl 76, or w/e the level is now, warrior can keep threat over anything in a dungeon, while a great thing, doesnt have any real balance significance when it comes to raiding because instances and raids arent the same. Scaling at 80 is much harsher to a warrior than a paladin. AoE in a 80 raid is very much different than AoE in a instance at a leveling instance. Im sorry if you dont agree with me, but your opinion in AoE with warriors will only be taken seriously by many at the level of competitive raiding. But also has to be a experiment that you have to do doing AoE without outside help from anyone, and do the same with a similar geared/skilled tank, can be paladin, druid, or dk.

By your logic, noone can compare any 2 classes based on raiding with them, which is what most claims are based on, not by having different toons, but playing along side other people with other classes. I would assume having claims based on 2 max level characters in a raid situation in similar gear/skill would be more viable than a 76 or 78 character leveling in dungeons.

Proletaria
01-03-2010, 04:56 PM
If you're getting stipped by the DnD of a frost dk (who has the least potent DnD without morbidity, most frost specs lack), then your aoe threat as a warrior needs work. I've tanked with a prot pally, frost dk, blood dk, and bear on my warrior and the only tank that flat out makes me look useless on aoe packs is the paladin (unless the frost dk gets real lucky with rime/killing machine procs, which isn't often).

There is a lot to be said for warrior aoe threat being somewhat glyph (i hate not having cleaving) dependant, or somewhat harder to maintain (in terms of number of skills used) than another class, but if you're making comparisons you really shouldn't use the dk. DK's are hands-down the worst add-tanking class in the game (without block or ap debuff), so having them tank trash/adds over another class isn't a great idea in and of itself. Secondly, the dk aoe rotation is easily on par for difficulty with a warrior. Keeping plagues on a lot of targets, managing runes to make sure you have a free one for a cooldown (that you're bound to need), and doing lots of tabbing for rune-strike (wich makes up the bulk of our threat) is not easy, nor is it incredibly effective. Add to that the fact we have a 5second downtime between dnd+plague application and actually getting to use another rune-based skill, and you have a pretty weak aoe tank when he is competing against another class or bursty dps.

I don't want to de-rail this into a discussion of warrior and dk mechanics, but I think we got side-tracked from the issue at hand if we're talking about how superior dnd is to anything warriors have.

Avatariku
01-03-2010, 07:00 PM
If you're getting stipped by the DnD of a frost dk (who has the least potent DnD without morbidity, most frost specs lack), then your aoe threat as a warrior needs work. I've tanked with a prot pally, frost dk, blood dk, and bear on my warrior and the only tank that flat out makes me look useless on aoe packs is the paladin (unless the frost dk gets real lucky with rime/killing machine procs, which isn't often).

There is a lot to be said for warrior aoe threat being somewhat glyph (i hate not having cleaving) dependant, or somewhat harder to maintain (in terms of number of skills used) than another class, but if you're making comparisons you really shouldn't use the dk. DK's are hands-down the worst add-tanking class in the game (without block or ap debuff), so having them tank trash/adds over another class isn't a great idea in and of itself. Secondly, the dk aoe rotation is easily on par for difficulty with a warrior. Keeping plagues on a lot of targets, managing runes to make sure you have a free one for a cooldown (that you're bound to need), and doing lots of tabbing for rune-strike (wich makes up the bulk of our threat) is not easy, nor is it incredibly effective. Add to that the fact we have a 5second downtime between dnd+plague application and actually getting to use another rune-based skill, and you have a pretty weak aoe tank when he is competing against another class or bursty dps.

I don't want to de-rail this into a discussion of warrior and dk mechanics, but I think we got side-tracked from the issue at hand if we're talking about how superior dnd is to anything warriors have.

My bad i should have been more specific on that particular one. No that one was a frost dk and was using DnD and howling blast, not just DnD, so no i wasnt losing them to just DnD. I apologize for that lack of piece of info.

I didnt mean to make it a warrior vs dk, just shared a comparison of how a situation was handled when a paladin and a dk did it. My point in both was that i just couldnt compete in aggro at all, and the numbers they pulled were extremely high, but then again howling blast, disease ticking and DnD im not surprised at the high numbers from the Dk.

I have accepted the fact that i am nearly useless in AoE situations, and only try to pick up a couple mobs so that im on the meters. That and to make sure my Demo shout and thunderclap is applied so i could help the paladin or whoever is tanking the adds.

Proletaria
01-03-2010, 08:38 PM
I didnt mean to make it a warrior vs dk, just shared a comparison of how a situation was handled when a paladin and a dk did it. My point in both was that i just couldnt compete in aggro at all, and the numbers they pulled were extremely high, but then again howling blast, disease ticking and DnD im not surprised at the high numbers from the Dk.

I have accepted the fact that i am nearly useless in AoE situations, and only try to pick up a couple mobs so that im on the meters. That and to make sure my Demo shout and thunderclap is applied so i could help the paladin or whoever is tanking the adds.

Assuming you beat the dk to the punch (ie, you get in with charge and clap before he can drop dnd and HB), even a frost dk is going to have a hard time snapping everything off. Initial threat matters a lot (to anyone but a paladin, but i digress), so make sure you are't letting the dk take thoes mobs. Like i explained before, the dk is the worst, flat out, no disucssion, tank to take them.

DND and HB completely drains a dk of his runes, so he isn't going to dnd, plague, pest, and hb in less than 10 seconds time. DK threat requires a lot of build-time (with 5 second downtime between rune refreshes, there are plenty of times when dk threat is just weak). If you beat one to the punch with any snappy aoe (tclap, shockwave, cleaves) you're not likely to loose many to a dk who isn't specifically spec'd for aoe (once again, colossal waste on a dk who is tanking with a warrior or paladin).

Honestly you sound like you're vary shaky on the dk mechanics. If you want to give me a more accurate play by play of how he pulls, then I can better explain how to beat him (assuming he's just out for the "i have more mobs on me" glory), but if you're not just having a tank-fight with him, i'd bring it up that he's a terrible choice for multi-add/trash tanking, and he should probably back off and do something more useful like re-position and silence important caster mobs, rather than try to steal the show and make every healer work 10x harder to heal him instead of you.

Avatariku
01-03-2010, 09:14 PM
Assuming you beat the dk to the punch (ie, you get in with charge and clap before he can drop dnd and HB), even a frost dk is going to have a hard time snapping everything off. Initial threat matters a lot (to anyone but a paladin, but i digress), so make sure you are't letting the dk take thoes mobs. Like i explained before, the dk is the worst, flat out, no disucssion, tank to take them.

DND and HB completely drains a dk of his runes, so he isn't going to dnd, plague, pest, and hb in less than 10 seconds time. DK threat requires a lot of build-time (with 5 second downtime between rune refreshes, there are plenty of times when dk threat is just weak). If you beat one to the punch with any snappy aoe (tclap, shockwave, cleaves) you're not likely to loose many to a dk who isn't specifically spec'd for aoe (once again, colossal waste on a dk who is tanking with a warrior or paladin).

Honestly you sound like you're vary shaky on the dk mechanics. If you want to give me a more accurate play by play of how he pulls, then I can better explain how to beat him (assuming he's just out for the "i have more mobs on me" glory), but if you're not just having a tank-fight with him, i'd bring it up that he's a terrible choice for multi-add/trash tanking, and he should probably back off and do something more useful like re-position and silence important caster mobs, rather than try to steal the show and make every healer work 10x harder to heal him instead of you.


Yeah tbh i just go by my personal experiences with tanking on my warrior and reading a bit here and there. But heres a few examples of what has happened so far, different outcomes. I am not claiming to be a expert on either paladins or DKs in any way, if i sound like that, then im sorry. Dk only situations, no paladin. Paladins are disgusting in AoE threat, think we all agree on that. Just a side note, I dont think they are AoE threat machines either. If i ever came off saying they were im sorry, just wanted to explain different situations with 2 different classes as tanking along side me in ICC.

Me pulling first in ICC 10 on pulls before Marrowgar. I charge thunderclap, she lays down a DnD, I shockwave, im assuming she howling blasted at this point, i got most of the mobs except for 1. No tricks used. Kept threat with a good lead from hers on a few mobs, she kept close to mine on 2 mobs.

She pulled the Lady whisperwind room, both benches, not the 2 freaky looking spider dudes, and kept most of them except 2 that I was single targeting and 1 i taunted. She had severe threat lead over me, who was barely on the meter for most of the mobs since I had NO rage.

DPS wise, she was close to 6.5k during her tanking the pull. I was above the healer T_T.

DKs I dont have a problem with really. Just the experiment I did was more to see how much DPS they could pull in a AoE situation compared to the Paladin. Usualy like you said, I can keep threat off of them if I have enough time to do my initial Thunderclap + shockwave. But she pulled similar DPS throughout the fight as the Paladin. Maybe less since i wasnt paying attention to the paladins DPS during the actual pull. but end result she pulled around 5.4k and his ended with 6.8k

I dont care what I tank in trash, just dont like to feel useless in anything that I am not getting hit. Or start the pull and end up losing mobs every second to a paladin and then eventualy be rage starved cause I got so few mobs on me. But I guess its acceptable in raids since theres tricks/MDs right? right?

Im always up for learning more about other tanks, im currently leveling a paladin, just got to lvl 20 and I have been finding it extremely boring, auto attack + judgement = drool. But I find it interesting to learn about other tanks, I dont like researching and taking everything to heart cause generaly the material is often one sided. I tend to like learning more by personal talks. besides I think each tank have a uniqueness to their style. Which make it intereting, but thats just me

Eisen
01-03-2010, 10:43 PM
To sum up my opinion: We have the tools to AoE tank. We just don't have the AoE to fit into the wrath style of tanking. It requires alot more work to produce results than other classes. Imo having to work much harder than others doesn't make a class unique, just means you will have a tired/sore wrist by the end of the night.

Yeah see here's the thing. I do QUITE a bit more single-target threat than most pallies I encoutner in Icecrown, including ones better geared than me. I do signifigantly less aoe threat. Again, cool with this. Name me a boss fight in Icecrown where aoe is important. Yes, Deathwhisper, but that hurts the pally as much as helps, and they'll need a warr to pick up the mobs that ignore spell damage. And Gunship? Sure for the boarding parties. guess who's smacking Saurfang?

TL;DR version? Pallies are the best trash tanks in there. I'm still a better boss tank. I don't feel threatened. Maybe the big boys in the world first-type guilds will be hyper-optimizing and saying "OMG we need pallies for this encounter" But we're talking about people that will re-gem thousands of gold worth of gear for one fight then merrily swap it back just because of optimization. Most "normal" runs aren't gonna make a diff.

Synapse
01-04-2010, 07:50 AM
Yeah see here's the thing. I do QUITE a bit more single-target threat than most pallies I encoutner in Icecrown, including ones better geared than me. I do signifigantly less aoe threat. Again, cool with this. Name me a boss fight in Icecrown where aoe is important. Yes, Deathwhisper, but that hurts the pally as much as helps, and they'll need a warr to pick up the mobs that ignore spell damage. And Gunship? Sure for the boarding parties. guess who's smacking Saurfang?

TL;DR version? Pallies are the best trash tanks in there. I'm still a better boss tank. I don't feel threatened. Maybe the big boys in the world first-type guilds will be hyper-optimizing and saying "OMG we need pallies for this encounter" But we're talking about people that will re-gem thousands of gold worth of gear for one fight then merrily swap it back just because of optimization. Most "normal" runs aren't gonna make a diff.
Those differences you claim to be fine are exactly what blizz claims not to be.

Proletaria
01-04-2010, 08:22 AM
TL;DR version? Pallies are the best tanks in 3.3.

Fixt.

But, in all seriousness. I read these posts about how "oh the paladin has better aoe, but i do this better.." and I wonder: what terrible paladin tank are these people playing with?

I run with a very very geared, and skilled prot pally. I also pug with a skilled prot pally from another guild on a regular basis (with my warrior alt), although he has less gear than my guild's pallly. Bottom line is: they produce tens of thousands more threat on trash, and easily a few thousand (minimum) more single target threat than any other non-paladin tank out there. I'm no scrub, and i've fully explored my dk and warrior's talents/gearset/gimmicks to see if i can give either paladin a run for his money. The answer has always been a resounding "lolno."

So unless i'm just missing something terribly obvious, i'm calling the bluff of anyone who doesn't think prot pallies have the highest threat everywhere. I won't start the debate about AD, block mechanics, yatta yatta, the paladin-too-hard-to-kill debate is for another thread. Frankly there is nothing that out-threats a paladin, and if you're pulling something off yours (that isn't a fringe caster or something) then he is doing it wrong.

Nez
01-04-2010, 08:38 AM
Ive been in there with every type of tank dpsing and I play my warrior and DK in there each week tanking as well. I really haven't seen any AoE threat issues from any of them. Even without ToT or MD's. I do not think the classes are the problem. Sure it takes a little more work to stick them all on the warrior, it always has. Thats what makes it fun imo. This game is too easy as it is.

Proletaria
01-04-2010, 01:23 PM
Ive been in there with every type of tank dpsing and I play my warrior and DK in there each week tanking as well. I really haven't seen any AoE threat issues from any of them. Even without ToT or MD's. I do not think the classes are the problem. Sure it takes a little more work to stick them all on the warrior, it always has. Thats what makes it fun imo. This game is too easy as it is.

If the game is easy on a warrior and dk, what on earth do you call prot pally tanking? I mean, sure, I don't have to move the earth and align stars to tank a pack on my dk or my warrior. That being said, it's not a stretch to say a paladin does it faster with less effort. Any prot pally worth his salt will admit that. Wether or not that is the paladin's "niche" is worth debating (since they seem to have lots of powerful niche roles at the moment), but saying "oh it's fine, every class can do it," is hand-waiving the discussion away for lack of anything to add.

Rawkz
01-04-2010, 01:35 PM
Yeah this is all kind of frustrating but in reality, when has threat been an issue in this expansion. Sure it would be nice to dish out more tps then everyone else. But if your guild looks down on you cause you can't out-threat a pally as a warrior, what does that say about your guild? What really bugs me isn't the threat, it's the amount of damage pally tanks do compared to warriors. You can say oh whatever but increasing raid dps by 1-2k at the loss of mechanics that aren't even useful on single-target boss fights such as stuns and spell reflect is a pretty big deal. And here inlays the root of the problem, balancing pvp and pve.

Avatariku
01-04-2010, 02:24 PM
My only issue with this situation is that NOTHING will be done about this. Why? Because we can tank the AoE pulls. Blizzard has shown time and time again that when it comes to warrior tanks, that they dont balance around what other tanks can do. There is plenty of posts from GC saying that we can tank everything, and are the most popular tank, so why buff us? Unfortunatly as long as we are able to tank each encounter we are "fine". I think this is a horrible way to design anything really. Specialy when it comes to a role that is in dire need of numbers too. I guess it gives incentive to have the population to shift to paladins instead. Im sure blizz will be happy when that happens.

What irks me about this though, is the fact that this situation ONLY happens to us. I guarantee you, if it was the opposite case, where warriors were dominating and paladins were where we are in terms of threat/survivability and quality of life, something would be done within the week.

Eisen
01-04-2010, 03:36 PM
Yeah this is all kind of frustrating but in reality, when has threat been an issue in this expansion.


This. So hard.

Yes, Pallies are doing more aoe threat in ICC.

But are warriors unable to hold aggro on mobs? If the answer was yes, I'd be concerned. I've seen people pulling insane aoe dps numbers in there and I can STILL hold threat just fine. So why worry?

Hammerfists
01-04-2010, 04:31 PM
You can say oh whatever but increasing raid dps by 1-2k at the loss of mechanics that aren't even useful on single-target boss fights such as stuns and spell reflect is a pretty big deal. And here inlays the root of the problem, balancing pvp and pve.

If your raid leader blames the tank when the boss enrages and wipes the raid you have one very clueless leader. Dps dps tanks reduce incoming damage and do tps our dps is a bonus. If dps was what we were suppose to do you can fury tank. Its no secret that prot warrior dps is probably the lowest of all the tanks but if you bench them for that you should first clear your roster of your subpar dps.


What irks me about this though, is the fact that this situation ONLY happens to us. I guarantee you, if it was the opposite case, where warriors were dominating and paladins were where we are in terms of threat/survivability and quality of life, something would be done within the week.

Last i checked warriors ruled the earth till lich king. Ok so we make trash pulls easier does that mean we need a nerf o so bad to let other tanks in on the trash, not really its trash. As for boss tanking I dont see us needing a nerf asap. i would say DKs need a buff more than we need a nerf right now.

Blizzard did release pandora from her box when they made pallies really powerful aoe tanks. I dont think Blizzard should make every tank capable of what the other can do, tanking is a team game thats why there are 3 of you in a 25 man raid. If your pallie can aoe well then as a warrior pick out the target that needs to be dead first and have people assist off you or stun the group or for that matter disarm the whirlwind guy. Before you go say Pallies are OP try tanking Suarfang with 2 pallies (it can be done but a lot easier to put tanks without aoe/cleave in there rotation).

Avatariku
01-04-2010, 08:49 PM
If your raid leader blames the tank when the boss enrages and wipes the raid you have one very clueless leader. Dps dps tanks reduce incoming damage and do tps our dps is a bonus. If dps was what we were suppose to do you can fury tank. Its no secret that prot warrior dps is probably the lowest of all the tanks but if you bench them for that you should first clear your roster of your subpar dps.



Last i checked warriors ruled the earth till lich king. Ok so we make trash pulls easier does that mean we need a nerf o so bad to let other tanks in on the trash, not really its trash. As for boss tanking I dont see us needing a nerf asap. i would say DKs need a buff more than we need a nerf right now.

Blizzard did release pandora from her box when they made pallies really powerful aoe tanks. I dont think Blizzard should make every tank capable of what the other can do, tanking is a team game thats why there are 3 of you in a 25 man raid. If your pallie can aoe well then as a warrior pick out the target that needs to be dead first and have people assist off you or stun the group or for that matter disarm the whirlwind guy. Before you go say Pallies are OP try tanking Suarfang with 2 pallies (it can be done but a lot easier to put tanks without aoe/cleave in there rotation).


So the, warriors be MT FOREVER excuse is played yet again? Because ya know, we design the game ourselfs and made it that way eh?

And secondly, only reason paladins are against seeing warriors buffed is because they are in the seat of power. They like being above everyone else, we all like being the most powerful.

Proletaria
01-04-2010, 11:13 PM
Sigh.. why does every thread like this have to end up with:

"But warriors were 'THE' tanks for classic/bc!"

and

"Your class can still tank, what's the problem?!"

Really now? None of those sentiments are pertinent to the current state of threat and just instigate more class-warfare.

Personally, I think we're devolving what should be a thread about class diffirences in threat rotations, specs, glyphs, mechanics, and such into something that will get locked for being inflamatory.

Hammerfists
01-05-2010, 12:58 AM
Warriors will never get aoe abilities on par with pallies, Avatariku. Every tank got them to help with dungeons. But in a pull scenario it is more worth your time to spell lock casters and disarm whilwind warriors than match aoe threat with a pallie. On a boss you do sunder armor which is by far one of the best debuffs in the game. No matter how much dps tanks do most guilds choose warriors for this debuff on the boss. I think its fair to say that bottem line on single target its easier for a pallie to do good tps because other classes have to weave in a "on next swing" move which also makes it more touchy for bad computers/internet connections but all things being equal our single target tps is higher due to the type of bosses we encounter in ICC but still lower than warriors from what i have experienced.

It should be pointed out that tps for pallie in there is increased by our talent Crusade and glyph sense undead which will up us by 7% as well as being able to use holy wrath. Giving ret pallies seal of corruption/vengeance helped our threat where it really didnt need it. Im sure come cataclysm this will all be worked out (no doubt by shaving more off righteous fury).

Xianth
01-05-2010, 01:32 AM
Holy shield should yield a decent increase due to the chill:

Before you had say, 60-65% avoidance so you only got 40-35% blocks, ie holy shield procs. Now you get all of your holy shield block plus your base from gear as holy shield procs, so that's at least 50% blocks. couple that with occasional redoubt (does it still work like that? i can't remember) filling you up to unhittable, your holy shield will be proccing a shitload more.

Hammerfists
01-05-2010, 02:21 AM
True Pallies will block more often but Warriors tend to block more. Both tanks get 30% block value from talents (redoubt for Paladins and shield mastery for Warriors). Holy shield will have a near 100% uptime giving us 30% block. Heres where we divurge as shield tanks. Redoubt has a 10% to be triggered by a melee or ranged attack to increase or block chance by 30%. Warriors have a 60% chance to block double the amount with Critical Block talent. Warriors get 5% block from Shield Specialization talent although this one gets moot with holy shield. Warriors also have Shield Block which will double shield block value and percentage for its duration.

So in sum a Paladin will block more often and a Warrior will block more damage.

Proletaria
01-05-2010, 02:53 AM
How does any of that correlate to a threat comparison?

Synapse
01-05-2010, 03:46 AM
It doesn't. People seem to think not being block capped makes us block more, but in fact the uncommon paladin that used to be block capped would only have 2 or 3% wasted block. It's hardly going to make the difference in single-target, and it won't make a difference in aoe anyway because while block capped, in aoe, holy shield wwould be consumed before the cooldown refreshed.

Paladin threat has 2 things in ICC that were missing on part of the Coliseum: Undead mobs. Undead mobs mean our crusader bonus goes from 3% to 6%, and the smart paladin will also have the extra 1% from sense undead glyph.

4% more total damage output, and usability of holy wrath(think thunderclap with a stun).I say "Part" of the Coliseum because crusade was already at full steam for everything past the Beasts fight. For every other fight Crusade was already at full power.
There's nothing new in ICC that suddenly boosts paladin threat. People are just being beaten by paladins and complaining about it. Whether that is because people are bad, the paladins they see are good(or just better than them) or a legitimate imbalance in power, I don't know.

Kazeyonoma
01-05-2010, 04:00 AM
Thread closed. This isn't the place to complain or argue about silly class vs. class balances.