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View Full Version : Druid Druid tank, how am i doing?



Balagar
12-10-2009, 05:36 PM
Some of you that responded to my first thread i made here may remember how horrible my gear was then. Just wondering how i'm doing and any thoughts on what I can improve as far as gear. FYI, heroic raids aren't available to me, as we lack the dps in some areas. Hittin up ICC 10 tonight, but from the looks of it, all the leather in there is geared more for dps, but i may be wrong

Harmacy
12-10-2009, 07:18 PM
Why aren't you specced into Infected Wounds? That 20% reduced attack speed reduces a lot of damage.

Balagar
12-10-2009, 07:47 PM
I'm using a spec suggested by Darksend, and it has worked out for me so far in the past month that i've been feral

Harmacy
12-10-2009, 08:16 PM
I'm not very well-versed in bear tanking so I can't suggest a different spec for you, but I can definitely tell you that you want Infected Wounds for the attack speed debuff.

There's a reason that all tanks spec into that debuff - it reduces a lot of the damage you take. Unless you have a DPS frost DK or someone who is a) always assigned to your target and b) will never die or switch targets or otherwise let that debuff fall off... unless you meet those strict criteria, you should always be specced into that.

It's crucial.

Darksend
12-10-2009, 11:57 PM
While making my best in slot list for ICC, that was the first thing I noticed, comparing the 264 heroic 10 man drops to the 264 normal 25 drops, the 10 man pieces all had between 20-60 less stam which only 10-15 less agi, so your assessment of that situation is correct.


I'm not very well-versed in bear tanking so I can't suggest a different spec for you, but I can definitely tell you that you want Infected Wounds for the attack speed debuff.

There's a reason that all tanks spec into that debuff - it reduces a lot of the damage you take. Unless you have a DPS frost DK or someone who is a) always assigned to your target and b) will never die or switch targets or otherwise let that debuff fall off... unless you meet those strict criteria, you should always be specced into that.

It's crucial.

If you run with any kind of DK, as long as you are not doing hard mode raids the 14% base reduction of icy touch is more than fine.

Balagar
12-11-2009, 12:05 AM
Ya, our Main Tank is a DK. As far as the gear, i'll prolly just wait till i can start gettin T10 pieces

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 12:54 AM
Also if you have a prot warrior tclap is good, and also pally tanks do the same thing.

Harmacy
12-11-2009, 01:21 AM
You can't rely on other tanks to put up that debuff for you - prot pallies can only put it up on one target, warriors are limited by the range of their Tclap, and many DK's don't bother speccing into it (and even those that do are limited by the range of their Pestilence).

As far as DPS DK's 14% being good enough, I still say "better safe than sorry". What about if the DK stands in the fire and dies, who will put up that debuff then?

I still say it's a crucial talent. Taking less damage = good. You can spec however you like though

Darksend
12-11-2009, 01:41 AM
I still say it's a crucial talent.

RELATIVE to the level of content you are doing.

Harmacy
12-11-2009, 04:43 AM
RELATIVE to the level of content you are doing.

I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where you wouldn't want 20% reduced attack speed.

Maybe if you're roflstomping Naxx and only care about the damage you deal?

Darksend
12-11-2009, 05:16 AM
I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where you wouldn't want 20% reduced attack speed.

Maybe if you're roflstomping Naxx and only care about the damage you deal?

25 man ICC first 4 bosses?

That is not to be mean or sarcastic either some guilds such as mine already outgear those 4 bosses because we have had anub 25 heroic on farm for so long that things like that really make no difference.

But realistically 10 even 25 man normal mode ToC is cleared by pugs on my server in 1/2 an hour.

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 05:17 AM
I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where you wouldn't want 20% reduced attack speed.

Maybe if you're roflstomping Naxx and only care about the damage you deal?

I'd argue it's better to not slow jaraxxus so you have better rage regen since he hits like a little kitten anyways. =P

The point is if you have a 25 man raid comp setup, I could see being able to drop the talent depending on the fight. For NRB either I or our Palidan always have it up for beasts. For Jarxxus same deal, it would be fairly easy to keep it up. Also doesn't earthshock from enh shamans slow too? FC I don't really equate to tanking much, ya it'd be nice but you really should be kiting melee =P. For Twins if you have a warrior it'll always be up, and the same might hold true for anub, but that is a bit more circumstantial and depends on how good your warrior is at keeping an eye on that.

So... there there's an entire instance where it may not be necessary for a druid to stack that, however I do agree if that buff will not be up a significant amount of time the druid is tanking that then yes you should definitely pick it up but it may vary between guilds.

At least... that's what I can analyze from it and what Darksend may be trying to say. I really don't know that much about druid theorycraft, just raid buffs in general.

Edit: I listen to our feral druid a lot b/c I know him IRL and he's a really smart guy and thinks out his stuff very in depth. He is spec'd into infected wounds and I expect he has a good reason for it. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Maelstrom&cn=Bruoco&gn=Roll+Initiative if you want to look at him. He's probably real pissed at me b/c I've had to work which means he has to tank more than dps.

Harmacy
12-11-2009, 06:37 AM
My point is, of course you can skip the talent for farm content. Who the hell cares about farm content?

For progression, having that debuff up is a must... Earth Shock from shammies only provides 10%, Frost Fever from non-frost DK's provides 14%, and you can't really rely on other tanks to provide it for you in 100% of situations. Like I said, better safe than sorry.

I can understand if you need those talent points for more threat talents if you have aggro issues, but if you don't, why not get the talent that reduces the damage you take? I still don't understand why you wouldn't take it unless you have severe aggro issues.

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 06:40 AM
We're saying that other classes can bring the debuff(full 20%), and if they can and it would always be up for the druid then it is not a needed talent. If it won't always be up and needs to be, then yes, I fully agree that you should spec into it.

At least... that's what I'm saying.

Harmacy
12-11-2009, 06:42 AM
We're saying that other classes can bring the debuff(full 20%), and if they can and it would always be up for the druid then it is not a needed talent. If it won't always be up and needs to be, then yes, I fully agree that you should spec into it.

At least... that's what I'm saying.

I'm not trying to be obstinate or anything, I just think that tanks should provide that debuff on their own just in case something goes wrong.

I suppose if you have a smart DPS DK, who you make sure is assigned to your target, then you could skip it. But I guess it's up to the individual tank.

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 06:44 AM
ya... I'm saying it's other TANKS that bring it, most raids have 2 or 3 tanks, it's nothing anyone needs to especially spec into.

Rominoodle
12-11-2009, 07:43 AM
But realistically 10 even 25 man normal mode ToC is cleared by pugs on my server in 1/2 an hour.

What server on you on? I still get told on my server that I am not geared enough to tank ToC10 NORMAL!!

felhoof
12-11-2009, 02:30 PM
To answer the OP:

You should have the right color of gem in your hat; while most socket bonuses aren't worth it, helm socket bonuses almost always are.
I'd also go with either fort or agi on your boots; hit/crit is pretty suboptimal, and it's clear those aren't a dual-purpose piece anyway.

Now that emblems are so cheap, try and get the bracers of swift death and knightbane carapace made.

But most importantly, get a better weapon. Run the 5-man ToC as many times as you can to get marrowstrike, and pray that a hilt drops for you in ICC 5-man. Otherwise, things look fine; you've got good enchants, good choices of gear, and in general are on the right track.

Insahnity
12-11-2009, 03:09 PM
I'm not trying to be obstinate or anything, I just think that tanks should provide that debuff on their own just in case something goes wrong.

I suppose if you have a smart DPS DK, who you make sure is assigned to your target, then you could skip it. But I guess it's up to the individual tank.

This.

It's pretty dumb for all the other posters to say "you should spec into slow debuff" "No, no, somebody else is already providing it" without actually knowing the specs of every capable class in his raid. He has mentioned the DK already provides it, and for some instances, that may just be enough. We don't know who else is doing it.

On the other hand, you should provide your own debuff. Could a warrior tank buddy TClap the entire iron council? Could a fellow IW bear maul the whole council when separated? Paladins can only judge so far, and let's not even start on paladin vindication, the proc is not guaranteed despite its high probability. You have two tanks for the simple reason that sometimes one person tanks one mob in one spot, and the other very far away, while other gimmick fights like Nalorakk/Patchwerk/Kologarn/Gormokk/Marrowgar/etc. are the times when you can get away with it. Also, if the source of the debuff dies, you just made your life more miserable when the debuff falls off. It's not just increasing your survival, your mages are probably losing 12% of their DPS if they are specced into Torture of the Weak (as an arcane mage, I never spec for Slow, every tank is supposed to provide the slow debuff to some degree, and keeping up a frost bolt is not possible given how arcane works).

Finally, it's less of an issue with warriors/DKs than it is with bears/paladins. DKs and warriors naturally have slowing with Icy Touch/thunderclap, their talents just make it better. Paladins and bears must spec into it to get ANYTHING (although for paladins, since they have less mandatory talents to deal with, it's much easier for them to find the 2 pts for JotJ than for a druid to free up 3 points for IW, given all the other feral talents to choose from).

So go spec into IW, even if its for 2/3. Stop being lazy and/or reckless.

Insahnity
12-11-2009, 03:14 PM
Balagar, for your spec, notwithstanding my previous post, you need to tweak it a bit. You have a dualspec feral, one for kitty and one for bear. I can't see how Darksend possibly recommended Omen of Clarity for a bear, it's pretty useless for bears.

To fix your spec, get out of natural/master shapeshifter and Omen of Clarity. Pick up 3 point of IW and 3 points King of the Jungle. With the new 4pc bonus set, expect your KotJ usage to go up.

Also, felhoof has solid advice, weapon upgrades are without a doubt the most clearcut way to improve threat. Also, for boots, you don't need extra hit, you are already over cap (264), an unavoidable problem us ferals have, and I would agree with his assertion that you probably have cat boots somewhere to put icewalker on (assuming you weren't over hit cap as a kitty too).

Aggathon
12-12-2009, 08:27 AM
It's pretty dumb for all the other posters to say "you should spec into slow debuff" "No, no, somebody else is already providing it" without actually knowing the specs of every capable class in his raid.

Please don't call us dumb when we're making the caveat that it depends on raid comp/players/fight mechanics. It's insulting, uncalled for, and makes me wonder if you read our posts really.

Edit: also how is omen of clarity useless, I thought every bear tank picked it up, ours does. It's an awesome talent for any spec.