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Ciderhelm
12-10-2009, 12:11 AM
You can find a guide to the heroic version of this encounter here (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?63389-Icecrown-Deathbringer-Saurfang-Hard)!

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http://www.tankspot.com/forums/images/snowfall/donorbanner.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/premium.php)


Welcome back to the Icecrown raid guide, My name is Thegreatme and in this video I will be discussing our strategy for Deathbringer Saurfang, the fourth boss in the Ice crown citadel raid instance.

the Deathbringer Saurfang encounter is a burndown fight that gets progressively harder as the fight goes on. This encounter relies of good execution, and being able to focus your healing and DPS as needed.

One of the most important mechanics of the fight is a buff Saurfang has which is called "blood link. When ever Saurfang, or one of his summoned creatures damages a player it will cause him to gain blood power. For every point of blood power Saurfang has he will grow 1% larger, and do 1% more damage.

Your raid needs to have ranged spread out so they are all at least 12 yards away from each other. This is because of blood nova, which will hit a random player, as well as anyone with in 12 yards of them for 9500 to 10500 damage. for every player hit by Blood nova Deathbringer saurfang will gain two blood power. It is advised that your ranged have a boss mod installed with a proximity detector and that they use it in order to make sure they are always far enough away from each other

Saurfang will also use an ability called Boiling blood, which is a damage over time debuff that does 5000 damage every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. this debuff is usually placed on 4 raid members at a time, but some times it may be applied to more people . Deathbringer Saurfang will gain 1 blood power for each tick of boiling blood.

Deathbringer saurfang also puts a debuff on the tank called rune of blood. this causes Saurfang's melee attacks to also leach 5100 to 6900 health from the target, and heal Saurfang for 5 times the amount leached and lasts 20 seconds. On normal mode the healing it does to saurfang is not large enough to warrant bringing in a second tank over a DPS. in this video my guild did use two tanks but this is because at the time we were unsure of the mechanic, and wanted to have a back up just in case.

When ever deathbringer saurfang hits 100 blood power he will place a debuff on a random raid member called Mark of the fallen champion. this debuff causes all of deathbringers saurfang's melee attacks to hit this target, plus an additonal 5700 to 6300 damage per hit. every time this player is hit deathbringer saurfang will gain 1 blood power. if the player with Mark of the fallen champion dies while under the effect of this debuff it will cause Saurfang to be healed for 5% of hit total health.
Mark has an infinite duration and can not be removed by any abilities , and will persist thru death.

Because mark gives Saurfang blood power it means that the speed at which he gains blood power throughout the fight increases exponentially as time goes on.

One way to help negate some of the damage that saurfang does is to disarm or dismantle him whenever he has around 80 blood power. doing this will reduce tank damage but more importantly it will also reduce the damage anyone with mark will take.

Also because all of the damage in this encounter is physical it is not a bad idea to have your mages buff the raid with amplify magic

approximately every 30 seconds saurfang will spawn 5 blood beasts in a circle around him. each blood beast has approximately 91 thousand health. all blood beasts have a buff that reduces their AoE damage taken by 95% and disease damage taken by 70%. when ever a blood beast successfully lands a melee attack it will cause Saurfang to gain 1 blood power. for this reason the blood beasts are to be kited rather than tanked.

Blood beasts are susceptible to all snares and stuns so ideally you want to have hunters make a path of frost traps so the they can be snared the whole time while being kited. moonkin druids are one one of the best classes to do the kiting because they have typhoon which can be used to push the blood beasts back and essentially reset the kite.

when each pack of blood beasts spawns your moonkin should be channeling hurricane as they spawn so they can get initial agro. hunters should also use misdirect on the moonkin and use multi shot to help get agro on all of the adds. once all of the adds have cleared the melee ranged DPS should all focus down one add at a time. Melee who use an AoE ability in their normal rotation such as fury warriors and paladins need to be aware of the timers for when the next pack of blood beasts are going to spawn and make sure that their AoE doesn't hit the blood beasts when it spawns because it may cause you to get initial agro on them.

Thank you for watching this movie. As always feel free to ask questions, or add suggestions either in the comments section on youtube, or in the thread dedicated to this guide on the tankspot.com. Also tankspot donors can download all of these movies directly from our servers. click the second link in the movie information box to learn more.


Welcome back to the Icecrown Citadel raid guide. I'm Lore and I'll be showing you the 10-Man Normal version of the Deathbringer Saurfang encounter.

Deathbringer Saurfang has a unique energy system called Blood Power, which is visible on his unit frame in place of a mana bar. He gains 1% damage dealt for every 1 Blood Power he gains, and once he reaches 100, he uses a very powerful debuff called Mark of the Fallen Champion which I'll describe in more detail later. He gains 1 Blood Power every time one of his various abilities or one of his summoned Blood Beast pets deals damage. Thus, the key to the fight lies in controlling the amount of Blood Power he gains as much as possible.

Notice how we have our raid spread out here. Our two healers are standing on either side of the walkway where the teleporter is located, and our ranged DPS is spread out in about 10 yard increments to the sides from there. This accomplishes two things. First, Saurfang has a targetted ability called Blood Nova which causes an AOE splash around a random raid member. By staying spread out, we can avoid having anyone be hit by the damage from this ability, thereby keeping Saurfang from gaining Blood Power from it.

Secondly, with the healers positioned in a central location, the Blood Beasts should be drawn down the middle of the room when they spawn. From there, the ranged DPS will burn them down, while our melee stays on the boss. Blood Beasts are vulnerable to just about all slows, stuns, roots, and knockbacks, so we have a Hunter dropping a Frost Trap to slow them down and an Elemental Shaman using Thunderstorm if they happen to get too close. Of course, there are many other ways to deal with this depending on your group composition. Keep in mind however that if the Blood Beasts successfully reach anyone and hit them, Saurfang gains Blood Power, so it's best to avoid having melee DPS on them and they should absolutely not be tanked. Furthermore, tanks and melee DPS will need to be careful to avoid using multi-target abilities when the Blood Beasts first spawn to avoid catching initial aggro.

Another ability you'll need to be aware of is Boiling Blood. This is a damage over time effect placed on a random raid member that deals a significant but perfectly healable amount of physical damage every 3 seconds for 24 seconds. More important than the damage it deals is the amount of Blood Power it gives. Each tick will give Saurfang 1 Blood Power, for a total of 8 Blood Power per use. This can and should be removed with immunity effects like Divine Shield or Ice Block, though he casts it frequently enough that he will be gaining Blood Power from it fairly consistently. If the rest of his abilities are being dealt with properly, however, this should be the vast majority of the Blood Power he gains over the course of the fight.

The last ability you'll need to watch out for to limit his Blood Power gain is a debuff he places on the tank called Rune of Blood. This causes his melee attacks to proc an extra 6000 or so damage on that tank, and heal him for 5 times that amount. This counts as an ability dealing damage, so he gains 1 Blood Power per melee swing while he's hitting a tank with Rune of Blood active. There are two ways to deal with this ability. It's possible to use one tank, offsetting the healing by having another DPS in the party, and simply dealing with the extra Blood Power he gains. However, this can be risky, and isn't likely to work later on when the encounter's Heroic Mode becomes available. It's much safer to have two tanks taunting off of each other when Saurfang applies the debuff.

By this point in the fight, Saurfang will most likely have collected a large amount of Blood Power and will be hitting fairly hard because of it. Remember that he deals 1% more damage for every Blood Power, so your tank healer will need to be aware of this increased damage.

As I mentioned earlier, once Saurfang reaches 100 Blood Power, he casts a debuff called Mark of the Fallen Champion. This consumes all of his Blood Power, setting him back to 0 and causing him to lose the damage buff, but also makes every one of his melee attacks also deal around 5000 damage to the marked raid member. Not only does this count as dealing damage with an ability, thereby rewarding him with additional Blood Power, it also lasts for the rest of the fight, and cannot be removed by immunity effects. Even if the marked player dies and is resurrected, they will still be marked for the duration of the encounter. Furthermore, if the player does die, Saurfang immediately heals for 5% of his total health. It will simply have to be healed through. In the 10 man version, it's usually possible to limit him to only casting this once or twice even with relatively low DPS, but keep in mind that for each active mark, he will be gaining Blood Power much more rapidly, and thus be able to cast another one sooner. This is why it's so important to limit the amount of Blood Power he gains, as the extra damage will quickly overwhelm your healers if he is allowed to cast it too many times.

Ultimately, with a good understanding of the fight's mechanics and strategy, Deathbringer Saurfang is simply a matter of execution. If everyone's doing what they're supposed to, he can be defeated somewhat easily. If not, well, things can go sour pretty quickly. If you'd like more information on this or any other encounter, including the 25-man version, just check the Project Marmot forums at Tankspot.com. If you're watching this on YouTube, just follow the link in the movie details. Thanks for watching, and good luck!

Casz
12-10-2009, 12:20 AM
Wuhu... can't wait to kill this guy on 10m

Tibbs
12-10-2009, 03:41 AM
I assume donor download is coming soon....?

Ciderhelm
12-10-2009, 04:44 AM
Donor download is up! We'll try to get the script included this afternoon!

Tahriel
12-10-2009, 07:13 AM
Haven't read the information or watched the video above since we already finished the encounter before checking on here for these videos but just some information for 10 man;

1. Only 2 adds spawn in the 10 man version, these can be taken care of with 2 ranged dps. No special abilities required to hold them in place, but a hunters frost trap and sometimes a DK's chains of ice can be helpful.

2. The adds don't really pose much of a threat on 10man, my main tank kept taking aggro on one of the adds as they spawned meaning it was attacking him for a while, this caused us zero issues. (I cant even remember Saurfang getting to 100% of his energy bar once!).

3. We used 2 healers, one of which being a Disc Priest so the shields probably helped, the other being a Druid healer. As i was the Disc priest i can say that the fight is VERY easily 2 healed, it's better to have the extra DPS.

4. Boss died very quickly, we one shot it, but it felt more like a tank and spank, just like how all 10 man content is i suppose, until hardmodes are released.

/Tahriel

Synicaal
12-10-2009, 07:33 AM
My guild downed the first 3 in this raid with only a few mess ups most coming on Lady Deathwhisper. We attempted Saurfang I want to say 4-5 times last night. We were blowing though it until we hit around 30% and he does his second mark of the fallen. At this point heals start falling off and we lose ppl. Just a bit more on what we were doing on this fight.
Raid Make up
2- Tanks (both pallys)
5- Dps (2 physical,3caster)
3- Healz (Priest,Druid,Pally)
When adds spawned we had out hunter kite one while we killed it. Othe add we had Druid rooting it as we killed it. Adds were not an issue. However like I said before after the first Mark our pally healer simple beaconed the person with it and it was fine. But by the time he did his second Mark he was around 30% and thats where we keep failing. Any suggestions.

Thegreatme
12-10-2009, 07:48 AM
after mark is applied watch saurfangs blood power, once it hits ~85 blow a defensive CD on the person with mark (GS, PS, BoP if it works (I haven't personally tested it but I don't see why it wouldn't),etc.) do this on everyone that has mark every time he gets high in BP, you may need to make a CD rotation so you don't accidentally overlap them. the player with mark them selves should use one of their personal defensive CD's when he gets close to marking another player as well.

Mr.Winkle
12-10-2009, 08:23 AM
My guild downed the first 3 in this raid with only a few mess ups most coming on Lady Deathwhisper. We attempted Saurfang I want to say 4-5 times last night. We were blowing though it until we hit around 30% and he does his second mark of the fallen. At this point heals start falling off and we lose ppl. Just a bit more on what we were doing on this fight.
Raid Make up
2- Tanks (both pallys)
5- Dps (2 physical,3caster)
3- Healz (Priest,Druid,Pally)
When adds spawned we had out hunter kite one while we killed it. Othe add we had Druid rooting it as we killed it. Adds were not an issue. However like I said before after the first Mark our pally healer simple beaconed the person with it and it was fine. But by the time he did his second Mark he was around 30% and thats where we keep failing. Any suggestions.

This fight is clearly a DPS race. I would suggest going for 2 healers and 1 tank and just nuke the crap out of him.

Vaelia
12-10-2009, 08:54 AM
Did this on our alts in 10-man Monday after the raid. Gear wasn't incredible so we had a few wipes while we experimented. We had two tanks, two ranged, and three healers at the beginning. I was on my hunter and these are the things we tried and how we got to a kill:

1. Shadow priest and I kited adds around and killed them. Problem: it's easy to run out of space and contribute to BP gains if you're too close to another player, and the two ranged spent the majority of their time dealing with adds.
2. We had melee stun one of the adds every time and then the entire raid blew it up. Resto shaman frostshocked the second add out of the melee and then the spriest and I kited/killed it. Ranged usually had 20 seconds or so to dps the boss before the next adds spawned. However, this fell apart towards the end as too many marks went out. As soon as someone died to mark it was over.
3. We had one of the healers switch to dps and continued the add handling mentioned in 2. This lead to a very clean kill with the boss only casting one mark before he died.

Note, we went back last night on our mains and did roughly the same strategy except I solo tanked the encounter. As a result the boss gained BP a lot faster and got off a second mark close to the time he was dying. Obviously it wasn't an issue since he died, but for less geared groups I would recommend having your third healer go dps but keep your second tank and swap on debuff.

mav1234
12-10-2009, 08:58 AM
Can we get any confirmation about disarm being hotfixed? One of our rogues tried it last night and for some reason we weren't sure if it worked.

Vaelia
12-10-2009, 09:02 AM
It did not work in 10-man last night.

Bihn
12-10-2009, 10:38 AM
Blood Beasts seemed to be spawning on a strict 40 second timer during our attempts.

Ion
12-10-2009, 10:50 AM
Blood Beasts seemed to be spawning on a strict 40 second timer during our attempts.

I'd second that...presumably the various mods (DBM/BW) will update with a timer on that (if they haven't already...I honestly didn't notice).

Thegreatme
12-10-2009, 11:09 AM
Blood Beasts seemed to be spawning on a strict 40 second timer during our attempts.
Looking back at my video it appears you may be right, I honestly was going off of the DXE timer which seemed pretty close, but the first two waves of adds spawned at 40sec, and ~82sec. I think the ability is on a cooldown of 40 rather than a strict timer because I have noticed him delay using it because he was casting another ability.

Bihn
12-10-2009, 01:02 PM
I think the ability is on a cooldown of 40 rather than a strict timer because I have noticed him delay using it because he was casting another ability.

That would make sense.

I was using the /stopwatch feature for the few attempts we had on Tuesday before our raid was over, so I wasn't looking too too closely at the exact second the Beast would appear, just calling it out as incoming at ~35 seconds since the last one. Unfortunately our soft reset made the NPC's despawn and we couldn't do anything last night with the updated mods, so we couldn't get a better grasp on the timers.

Vaelia
12-10-2009, 01:30 PM
I used DBM and it was right on the money with add spawns during both Lady Deathwhisper and Deathbringer Saurfang.

Sphinxie
12-10-2009, 03:23 PM
I watched your video for some inspiration on the tacs for this fight. One thing my guild changed compared to your tactics, is with the kiting of bloodbeasts. Put simple we made a path of frost traps and earth bind totems from the boss towards Muradin. At the end of it we had a holy paladin with righteous fury up, this meant that his threat from healing was enough to keep the adds running throug the entire path of snares. We combined it with MD from our hunters, and a moonking plus a firemage to knock back adds when they got close. It gave us a very nice control on the adds.

Shimoakki
12-10-2009, 03:58 PM
Just curious, but would you mind giving me a list of your addons? I'm sorry if you have listed them before. Thanks.

Thegreatme
12-10-2009, 04:12 PM
Just curious, but would you mind giving me a list of your addons? I'm sorry if you have listed them before. Thanks.
I have a very out dated addons movie on my youtube channel, but nothing that is fully up to date. I plan on making a thread on the UI compilation boards with a list of all my addons as well as a link to download it once I am done with this semester (meaning after next week some time).

Wars
12-10-2009, 06:26 PM
TGM thanks for the guide, we wiped on him a bunch last night. We just couldn't get him down fast enough or keep people spread.

How many healers did you run? We had 6 heals, 2 tanks and 17 dps, yet we only got him to about 15% the closest try.

Also, what font do you use for msbt?

Thegreatme
12-10-2009, 08:12 PM
unless we had a healer go DPS spec it looks like we had 6.

I use the "Friz Quadrata TT" font for MSBT

Battleharpy
12-10-2009, 10:35 PM
We downed Saurfang on 25 using a pretty cold blooded but interesting strat.
Ran 2 tanks 6 healers 17 dps. We did the typical strat with the add kiting focus targeting etc etc but one difference was seeing as the mark mechanic just increases the momentum of his BP gain we cut our losses and just let those that got marked before his soft enrage die. Doing this only 2 marks had been cast by 30%. Entering the burn phase, any marked people then had a paladin beacon tossed on them and were healed thru it. Adds were continuously focused down and the boss burned. Doing this strat we only got 4 marks the entire fight and thus got the achievement as well.
Yes it has a pretty RNG component, but if the 1st 2 losses are an even spread of say a healer and a dps it works quite well.

manicus
12-10-2009, 11:24 PM
Did this last night on 10 man.

Tanks need to taunt off each other when they get rune of blood. This is important to down saurfang as it heals him for a gazillion when he hits a target that has this debuff.

Blood beasts need to be burned down fast. I used vigilance for taunts on them.

Mark of the fallen champion got healed by our holy paladin, with beacon on the tank.

Saurfang seemed immune to disarm.

I don't think this could have been done with two healers, the damage from mark was simply too massive during his frenzy.


Our raid setup was:
Warrior Tank, Paladin Tank
2x DK dps, Ret pally
Balance druid, Arcane mage
Holy pally, Disc priest, Holy priest.

Tahriel
12-11-2009, 01:34 AM
Blood beasts need to be burned down fast. I used vigilance for taunts on them.


I don't really think they give that much of a threat, sure we had 2 ranged kill them off, but in 10man i just felt like the fight doesn't require you to put a great effort into the adds. Sure we killed them, but one was attacking our tank for ages and we had one Mark of the Fallen by the end of the encounter. Although it is good practise for Hardmodes to put the extra effort in i guess.



I don't think this could have been done with two healers, the damage from mark was simply too massive during his frenzy.


I think it hugely depends where you're at with gear, i went with a raid full of 245's while not BiS things from ToC, it allowed us to very easily kill him off with only one Mark going out and if we'd of used another healer, we'd of probably had two marks.

Remember to have your Disc Priest keep the raid shielded, i read somewhere that if the ability gets totaly absorbed, then Saurfang will not generate the blood rage energy from that attack.

Fizzlebeard
12-11-2009, 03:18 AM
I don't think this could have been done with two healers, the damage from mark was simply too massive during his frenzy.

We did this with 2 healers and 2 tanks as an (almost)-strict 10man guild (occasional ToC25 pug, easy stuff). We killed him just after the second Mark, which made things hectic at the end. Holy Paladin beaconed the first Mark and focussed on the tanks, RDruid took care of the raid.

Except for Mark, incomming damage is actually quite low. So as long as you do good DPS and keep Blood Power gains to a minimum (spread! dont get hit by beasts!) you won't get into problems with Marks overrunning your healers.

krilz
12-11-2009, 04:42 AM
This is an extremely easy fight on 10-man if you only have two good geared healers. We actually ninjapulled it and only got our strategy straight at 50% and still killed it. Obviously good DPS helps a lot but here are some things that helped us in both 10 and 25.

All types of knockback and slowing abilites are helpful. Typhoon obviously but if you have an elemental shaman, he can remove the Glyph of Thunderstorm as well. Also stuns are helpful, whenever they spawned, our destruction warlock stunned them with a Shadowfury and after that I put up Curse of Exhaustion on as many as I could (very nice with the glyph). This is a good alternative if you don't have that many hunters (or they're killed) or none in your 10-man. Earthbind is also helpful. Exhaustion is good because if you stand fairly close you can reach everyone and hunters and shamans doesn't have to break their position and lose DPS time on moving in and setting up traps/totems.

Discipline priests are GODS here. We used 6 healers (but no disc) on our 25-man attempts and since we were still trying out strategys, a lot of Blood Power was gained and a lot of people got Marks. However, thanks to the shields, the first tick on the dots, novas and Marks all help to reduce Saurfang's Blood Power and for a first kill, I would highly recommend bringing one.

Terra
12-11-2009, 06:55 AM
Some feedback from the field 10 man...

We used 2 tanks, 2 healers, 3 melee, 3 ranged.

Holy pally turned on Righteous fury and he became an extremely effective magnet for the adds. I started out trying hurricane like the guide suggested for 25 man, but it drained my mana too fast and I often had to resort to single target to get aggro. All slowing effects were applied (Frost fever, Earthbind totem, Slow from the mage, Frost Nova). As a boomkin I held the Typhoon as last resort to knock any adds back that managed to make it to it's target.

Thegreatme
12-11-2009, 06:57 AM
deciding wether or not to two tank this fight on 25 man is a balancing act because there are a few variables that need to be considered.

tank swapping reduces his BP gain from hitting the tanks, and reduces the healing he gets. BUT, you lose an extra DPS, which is important for more reasons than simply the damage they bring.

even though tank swapping reduces his BP gain in one area, it increases the duration of the fight and therefore gives him more chances to gain BP, making it more likely you hit the soft enrage. the longer he is alive the longer people are going to be taking damage from mark, which is putting even more stress on healers mana, and it also increases the chances of a marked player dying.

1 tanking it makes the soft enrage come sooner than 2 tanking it, but this fight doesn't revolve around the DPS, it revolves around the healers, the DPS are there to make it so the healers won't run out of mana (IE make him die before they go OOM). the longer he is alive the more time his BP generation has to relly ramp up, I could be totally wrong here but depending on your guilds DPS the difference between 1 tanking it and 2 tanking it could be the difference between getting 5 marks or 7.

For hardmode I can pretty much guarentee that tank swaps will be needed but the way it's tuned for normal currently I think there is a fine line between viably reducing his BP/HP gain from rune of blood, and making the fight go on too long and hitting the soft enrage.

bloodbrother
12-11-2009, 08:24 AM
is there a mod that correctly does 12 yard range? I know the /distance ingame can be set to 11 yards don't know if you can change that..

Thegreatme
12-11-2009, 09:57 AM
is there a mod that correctly does 12 yard range? I know the /distance ingame can be set to 11 yards don't know if you can change that..
I don't know about other boss mods but I am pretty sure you can change the range with DXE, which is the mod my guild uses.

Kavtor
12-11-2009, 10:51 AM
deciding wether or not to two tank this fight on 25 man is a balancing act because there are a few variables that need to be considered.

I'd argue that having a second tank with a second set of CD's to use would help out the healers quite a bit once you get deep into the fight.

Muffin Man
12-11-2009, 12:07 PM
deciding wether or not to two tank this fight on 25 man is a balancing act because there are a few variables that need to be considered.

tank swapping reduces his BP gain from hitting the tanks, and reduces the healing he gets. BUT, you lose an extra DPS, which is important for more reasons than simply the damage they bring.

even though tank swapping reduces his BP gain in one area, it increases the duration of the fight and therefore gives him more chances to gain BP, making it more likely you hit the soft enrage. the longer he is alive the longer people are going to be taking damage from mark, which is putting even more stress on healers mana, and it also increases the chances of a marked player dying.

I disagree with this. We tried this with 1 tank and downed it with 2 tanks.

The debuff heals him for 5 * the extra damage dealt, which since it appears to be unmitigated by armor is something in the 10's of thousands. Of course this only happens if he hits you with the rune up, which means with attack speed debuffs me might realistically only get healed 4 times or so. But still, I'm more than willing to bet that 4 massive heals (affected by how much range hates you) every minute or so is going to be more dps than you'd gain by swapping out a tank.

I suppose it's pretty close, but I don't think you'd see any significant dps gains or shorten the fight in any significant way. Unless the extra dps can help out on blood beasts.

That said, my guild did push him into the frenzy using 1 tank before deciding we couldn't keep dpsing through the rune of blood. So, the numbers may actually end up in your favor.

Lauf
12-11-2009, 01:53 PM
Downed 25man last night, had no Hunters :( so we used a mage spec into Frostbite, Permafrost, Imp Blizzard, and Chilled to the bone, basically full frost. Had a holy pally with fury up to get them away from tank and the mage used blizzard to hold them in place while we burned them down; it worked awesome the beasts didnt really move that far before they all dropped.

Bruize
12-11-2009, 03:25 PM
I have a very out dated addons movie on my youtube channel, but nothing that is fully up to date. I plan on making a thread on the UI compilation boards with a list of all my addons as well as a link to download it once I am done with this semester (meaning after next week some time).

I'd very much be interested in that as well. I've been looking for a way to streamline my ui a bit and yours looked like just the ticket.

Takethecake
12-11-2009, 04:01 PM
I agree with muffin man. I'm sure it would be easy to figure out how much the boss is getting healed for, but with only one tank your getting increased BP gains AND more dps required due to the healing. Figuring that a tank does ~2k dps then figure out how much the boss is healing for and that's the minimum dps the extra person would have to do in order to break even. Then factor in the extra BP the boss is getting constantly for the whole fight and their is no way that the extra dps would be more benefitial.

If I'm reading rune of blood right, their is no way they can even come close to breaking even. Leaches 5100-6900 health from target and heals boss for x5 that? Is that every hit the boss is healing 30k? or every time he applies it?

Wars
12-11-2009, 04:09 PM
Got him last night.

Here's the secret: Let the marked players die.

We two tanked it, and we got our first mark at 65%. The only people we were going to heal through Mark is the boomchicken, or one of the two hunters.

After we realized to just let them die, we killed it in three attempts.
Log of kill:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kt4aqink0x0onp2s/sum/damageDone/?s=9020&e=9435)

Also, the heal only applies every time he connects with a melee attack on the tank.

We had 4 marks total and got the achieve. Yay for hard-mode frostwyrms.

Thanks TGM for the font.

Thegreatme
12-11-2009, 04:34 PM
that's rather interesting. if you just simply let them die this fight could probably even be 4 healed (I see you guys ran with 5)

anyone figure out if the life leech heal, and more importantly, the heal when a marked player dies is affected by healing debuffs like MS?

Wars
12-11-2009, 04:35 PM
I don't know but next week I'll ask our marks hunter to Aimed shot him before the first marked player goes down!

Battleharpy
12-11-2009, 05:48 PM
I was arms dps and MS did not affect the heal.
Ntm Wars it helps to read previous posts, I stated all of that already xD.

Wars
12-11-2009, 05:49 PM
Thank you battle, good to know for future stuff.

Battleharpy
12-11-2009, 06:04 PM
Anytime lol we said the same thing NEARLY THERE TO THE HM MOUNT!

Bule
12-11-2009, 06:13 PM
Is there any general layout for the dps/healers? Like, who would be closer to the boss who would be in the back?

That seems to be something that we lack, we cant get the right amount of space between every person to limit the BP.

Wars
12-11-2009, 06:15 PM
We had just about every healer pull aggro at some point over the past two nights(on the beasts that is). I did my best to make sure they were in the back of the dps. We stacked two people on top of each other. That way we could guarantee we never had any 10+ BP blood nova's go off. Each nova would guarantee 4 BP, but I'll pick predictability over luck any day.

As far as positioning, using the "Buddy system" we had no problem with BP stacks!

Gravy
12-11-2009, 07:37 PM
I haven't seen anyone mention this, but it seems his Blood Nova (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72438) ability works on the same targeting mechanic as General Vezax's shadow crash. (Targeting only ranged as long as X number are alive and 15? yards away from the boss)

I can't confirm it this week, but letting you stack a few healers/ranged with melee would give a lot more room to work with.

Wars
12-11-2009, 07:45 PM
That description of Blood Nova is accurate with the current guide. We have had zero cast on the melee in our myriad of attempts before the kill.

tuffmuffin
12-11-2009, 08:23 PM
that's rather interesting. if you just simply let them die this fight could probably even be 4 healed (I see you guys ran with 5)

anyone figure out if the life leech heal, and more importantly, the heal when a marked player dies is affected by healing debuffs like MS?
Can 4-heal it and heal through marks already, but letting the Marked person die simply makes it easier to 4 heal.

Can't answer for the MS question though, I don't bother watching the screen for the fight. Huzzah for sound warnings when the other tank gets Rune of Blood.

Viggo Vickers
12-11-2009, 09:30 PM
We just did this tonight on 10 man. Tried a few attempts with the 1 Tank, but it seemed it didn't work so well for our set up. We made far more progress with the 2 Tank method and I helped control the adds when they went out of the Frost path with taunts and stuns, Prot Warrior can really shine helping control the elements in this fight.

Siona
12-11-2009, 10:35 PM
Just killed this in a 10 man pug. We wiped repeatedly trying it the "normal" way, ie with two tanks and healing everyone who gets the marks. But we were falling short on the dps requirement and getting overwhelmed with marked people dying at less than 10% consistently. We tried switching to one tank, but found that whenever he put the rune of blood on the tank, we he healed as fast as we could damage him so he would basically stay 74% or whatever for the duration of the debuff. We were killing him faster with two tanks taunting off each other.

Then we had the idea that since he gains blood power faster and faster as people get marks, we would just let the marked person die. We had 3 healers, 2 tanks, and 5 dps. First mark went off on a holy priest, he shadow word deathed himself to speed things up, but that doesn't really matter. He died, and we kept on burning. The boss died before the second mark went off and we got the achievement. Even if the first mark had gone on a dps, we still would have been able to kill him and get the achievement, because, like I said, we hadn't even hit the second mark when he died so we had plenty of time.

joequincy
12-12-2009, 11:49 AM
At 4:35 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJGlNCxfgPs#t=4m35s) you mention that Hunters should use MD and Multi-Shot to help manage aggro. Due to the change to MD, however, it would be more prudent to use MD and Volley. It will load far more aggro per mob onto the druid, and hit all of the Blood Beasts, instead of just three.

Love the guide! Hope to get him down soon :)

mwanecek
12-12-2009, 12:29 PM
Lauf said, "Downed 25man last night, had no Hunters :( so we used a mage spec into Frostbite, Permafrost, Imp Blizzard, and Chilled to the bone, basically full frost".

We did the same on both 10 and 25 man. We actually 2 hunters using traps but we kept wiping at 25%. As soon as the mage switched his spec to frost from arcane and both hunters used their traps we beat him in 25 man. For the 10 man version we tried using 1 hunter and could not beat him again. So we had the mage switch over to frost and we killed him on the next pull. I love this strategy. Thanks.

Thegreatme
12-12-2009, 03:28 PM
At 4:35 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJGlNCxfgPs#t=4m35s) you mention that Hunters should use MD and Multi-Shot to help manage aggro. Due to the change to MD, however, it would be more prudent to use MD and Volley. It will load far more aggro per mob onto the druid, and hit all of the Blood Beasts, instead of just three.
because of the 90% aoe Damage reduction multi shot is better because it isn't actually considered AoE int his encounter. if that aoe damage reduction wasn't in place volley MD would be exponentially better.

Alloy20
12-12-2009, 09:56 PM
I led our guilds first clear of the current ICC content last night using the Tank Spot 25 man videos as a guide, and would just like to add some notes on the 10 man variation.

Our Setup was

Tanks: DK War

Healers: Shammy, Paladin, Druid

DPS: Rogue, Priest, 2 Warlocks (Destro Demo), Boomkin

Unfortunately our Boomkin didn’t have his push back to keep the adds at bay, so instead the DK (me) chained each one as it popped up giving the dps enough time to kill them before getting into any real trouble. The second tank also taunted them once if need be whilst standing away from the boss to make sure they didn’t aggro onto the active tank.
In the video it mentions running this with a single tank however in the 10 man version we found this to be troublesome as he would heal up too much during the Rune of Blood mark and (it would seem) gain a lot of Blood Power, however I cannot confirm that this was due to Rune of Blood at the moment but it did look this way. So we opted for a two tank approach with the current off tank staying at a short range from the boss whilst under the effects of Rune of Blood to help with add kiting.
One last thing we were unsure of was at what rate he was suppose to be gaining blood power as our first few attempts had him rocketing up and placing Fallen Champion before dipping below 7000k. Once we got the tactics down we found we were able to get him down to about 3000k before the first one was placed and only had two active at the end of the fight.
Everything else is the same as 25 man, hope this helps.

Myrokin
12-13-2009, 12:34 AM
Just thought I'd chime in here. My guild got this down on 10man tonight, and after a few wipes, we worked out a strategy that worked really well until about 10% or so.

Our makeup was:

2 tanks, pally/warrior
6 dps, feral/rogue/unholy DK (Me)/fury warrior/2 hunters
2 healers, holy pally/resto shaman

The rogue was originally a boomkin while we tried that method, but we wound up switching because we were having a lack of good dps uptime on the boss from the ranged. We wound up having a focused burn on him, with beacon on the tank, until the adds spawned. Both hunters distracted a seperate add, and then the feral and the rogue laid into the adds (1 on each,) as I chains of ice-d each one to give time for the frost traps to go active. With the extra dps on the adds, we were able to get a good 15-20 seconds of everyone on the boss at the same time, which helped to burn him down quicker.

When the first mark went out, the pally just beaconed the mark and healed the tank, and on the second, he started to heal that one while the shaman focused on the tanks. Everything was cool until about 15% or so, when an add got loose for some reason, a 3rd mark went out, and we lost both the paladin and the feral, who both happened to be marked.

We got lucky and managed to burn him back down, and wound up taking him out with both healers dead (shaman died to an add, ankh-ed and got the tank topped off before an add chased him again,) after popping everything and wrecking into him.

TL;DR version - burst melee with increased move speed helping on the adds can get your ranged on the boss faster.

Galendian
12-13-2009, 05:17 AM
Just led my guild through ICC 10 man tonight and got him down on the 5th attempt.

Setup:

Tanks: Pally and Warr
Heals: Priest (holy), Priest (disc), Shammy
Dps: Boomkin, DK, Lock, Mage, Rogue

We initially had 1 tank on the boss, but our dps could not keep up with the Rune of Blood so we used 2 tanks to taunt off each other when the other tank had the debuff.

As for adds, the boomkin unfortunately did not have typhoon so we did another strat:

The boss would be tanked where he stands at the start. When the adds come up, the tank would move the boss towards the back (towards the closed gate). The boomkin would roots the left add, while the right add would be focused-fired on. If the tank tanking Saurfang was the pally, then the warrior tank would use Concussion Blow or a Shockwave on the right add to keep it stunned. If the tank tanking Saurfang was the warrior, then the pally would use Hammer of Justice to stun the right add. This bought enough time for the dps to nuke the right add and switch to the left add. Having a shammy in the group helped with the use of Earthbind totem. Once both adds were down, the tank would move Saurfang to the original position, so that the add spawn points would stay the same. This worked incredibly well. In fact, we only had 1 Mark of the Fallen Champion and we got the achievement.

As for dealing with the mark, for this fight, the rogue got the mark and since we had 3 healers, we designated 1 of the healers (think it was the shammy) to main heal the rogue. However, if the mark had landed on one of the healers or ranged dps, the pally would've used Blessing of Protection to negate the damage.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fl5hf6kt39xe08tl/dashboard/?s=14696&e=15080)

Midguard
12-13-2009, 08:10 PM
so we just attempted icc10 on saurfang, after 8 minutes, he appeared to enrage, gained a buff that increased his damage by 500% and proceeded to one shot everyone.


was curious if anyone else had seen this? i'm gonna see if i can get a screenshot of it, if it happens again.


have the screenshot, it seems hes at an 8 min enrage.

Wars
12-13-2009, 08:14 PM
It's gotta be an enrage. i can't believe you guys made it 8 minutes with all those marks.

Midguard
12-13-2009, 08:25 PM
It's gotta be an enrage. i can't believe you guys made it 8 minutes with all those marks.

we actually only got 2 marks i think, and we reached soft enrage, which was also right when he did the hard enrage, with a dps at 2.5k which was holding us back a bit...

but, our group was entirely ranged, so we had em all on the beasts when they popped, so we had beast down quickly, with them very rarely doing a hit

two tanks yelling in vent the very second they got the debuff...

zerek2211
12-13-2009, 09:20 PM
Someone mentioned tranq shotting the frenzy, this isn't right is it?

mav1234
12-13-2009, 10:49 PM
Someone mentioned tranq shotting the frenzy, this isn't right is it?

On Tuesday his enrage was removable and he was disarmable.

Since then he's been made immune to both it appears.

Painmaster
12-14-2009, 01:45 AM
Definately disarm has been hotfixed didn't work for me last night

Fledern
12-14-2009, 02:44 AM
We got him down on 10man with 3 different groups ranging from great geared to average geared. And last night we tried him on 25man. One of our 6 healers had to leave just before so we went in with 24 people / 5 healers. We got owned on the soft enrage. 14% was our best try but marks + enrage became near impossible to heal. We'll try with 6 healers on tuesday. Till the enrage it was cakewalk though. I think we got 2 marks till the enrage and a 3rd during enrage.

Mr.Winkle
12-14-2009, 03:42 AM
First mark went off on a holy priest, he shadow word deathed himself to speed things up, but that doesn't really matter.


Whilst in the grand scheme of things it probably didn't matter for your kill, i believe the boss only gets the 5% heal if the person dies from the mark. So if he actually killed himself with SW: Death rather than the mark killing him he saved you an additional 5% on the boss.

Edit: Actually i think this could be wrong, can anyone confirm if the marked dies from another means other than mark damage whether the boss still gets the 5% heal?

Also on a seperate note, on 10man, can anyone say how long it should take before the boss puts out is 1st mark?

tanksagain
12-14-2009, 07:24 AM
We did it the other night on 10man with 1 pally tank, 2 healers and 7 DPS. We wiped 3 times due to Mark of the Fallen Champion hitting healers and other clothies. It was just very hard to keep them alive. The successful attempt was when the first mark hit a plate wearer. The plate seemed to take almost no damage from Mark.

Has anyone else noticed this and is the "melee" damage effect of Mark really mitigated by armor?

If so, it would seem who gets Mark adds a bit of RNG to the success of the fight.

Toxsin
12-14-2009, 09:49 AM
Just read over all of this and have searched various other forums without luck (I could have possibly missed it of course).

I have been looking for some information regarding Rune of Blood and whether or not he generates BP from hitting a tank that has it (ie. 1 tank strat).

My guilds warrior tank and myself were trying to monitor the BP gains but due to people being bad and not being spaced enough, we could not be sure whether or not he was infact gaining BP from hitting someone that had Rune Of Blood.

We opted to go back to dual tanking and got the kill last night (25m version).

Mr.Winkle
12-14-2009, 10:20 AM
Just read over all of this and have searched various other forums without luck (I could have possibly missed it of course).

I have been looking for some information regarding Rune of Blood and whether or not he generates BP from hitting a tank that has it (ie. 1 tank strat).

My guilds warrior tank and myself were trying to monitor the BP gains but due to people being bad and not being spaced enough, we could not be sure whether or not he was infact gaining BP from hitting someone that had Rune Of Blood.

We opted to go back to dual tanking and got the kill last night (25m version).

Either stated earlier in this thread or perhaps in the ICC threads the 1 tank method means the tank generates 1 BP every time he is struck.

Gargash
12-14-2009, 11:11 AM
So Friday night we tried DBS the normal way on 25 and couldnt get it down, we would get to about 17% before marks started dieing then he would be back to 50%, so we tried to let the marks die and see how it does, after letting the first mark die we had him to 30% before the second one was applied, from there we just kept dpsing and healing new marks as they came out and downed him. If marks are becoming a problem then i would suggest letting the first 1-2 marks die.

Fluxx
12-14-2009, 01:12 PM
You need loads of dps... its just focus and hope you dont get to much marks of the fallen.

Allso note that our hunters who used Feint death when we called it a whipe still got Mark of the fallen on them when he reseted... so they started with the debuff make sure verybody dies.. or let a pallading DI someone without the mark.

Just downed him 10 min ago, we needed about 5 trys

grale
12-14-2009, 05:17 PM
Does anyone know anything about his hard enrage? Like how long it has till it goes off? Me and my fellows believe that it's a timer based on when he hits soft enrage. If so then how long from soft enrage does it go off?

I don't know if this has been answered yet, I didn't see it in any of the posts but sometimes I miss things. We had him down to 30% and only 1 mark so i know we were doing fine with the technical side of the fight so I'm thinking that it was a dps problem.

keebz
12-15-2009, 12:04 AM
I assume if tanks pop a cooldown (or even an armor pot) when DBS has upwards of 80+ Blood Power, their damage reduction will also benefit any players with Mark of the Fallen Champion. Would the same thing then go for external cooldowns such as Pain Suppression? This way you can pop a cooldown on the current tank and the people with Mark of the Fallen Champion take less damage (mostly a problem for non-plate) as a result, making it a kind of "chain cooldown". This would save a lot of unnecessary healing and/or choosing which players get external healing cooldowns.

This is for 25 man but I presume it would work well on 10 man if you are having problems, provided it is true.

Perhaps it is worth noting via an addition in the transcript.

dudyy
12-15-2009, 12:55 AM
This definitely is a pretty easy fight, maybe its just cause im a hunter but to me it seems like a pretty straight forward fight.

I did it today on 10man. probably have heard this strategy before but here is how my guild did this.

First all dps on boss. then hunter sets down a freezing trap, before adds spawn,
then we had a boomkin root one while all ranged dps killed the first one
then hunter concussion shots te trapped one and sorta kites it around but should it should go down fairly quickly.
then you pretty much repeat that.
Another note all melee just stays on the boss, we used 1 tank for this and 2 heals so it was fairly easy.

dudyy
12-15-2009, 01:02 AM
OH yea forgot to mention with that strategy we got the achievement for less then 3 marks, i think we managed to only have 1 mark out, and that was on me, and it was like with less than 5%.

oh yea forgot to mention the make up in case anyone was wondering

Tanks, warrior and paladin
Heals, priest and shaman
DPS, 1 hunter, 2 boomkins, 1 mage, 1 warlock and 1 rogue

Wolfč
12-15-2009, 04:37 AM
We downed this one on 10 man the 13th after finally beeing able to enter the place due to the instance "limit" crap.

Anyway, I would just like to point out some minor tips about making the whole add phase a tad easier.

Our tank/healer setup was
3 healers (Paladin, shaman and holy priest)
1 Tank (Paladin)

we also had a hunter, and Boomkin with us so the kiting should be easy.
However, as we had some dps DKs with us, and Paladin tank they did forget to time their AoE abilties from time to time making some of the adds aggroing them and giving Saurfang some uneeded power stacks.

So more or less fixed this with the simple solution of having the paladin healer (me) standing in the middle of the room, but at max range, with righeous fury on giving me more threat then usual, and making the adds aggro me as they spawned more or less 99% of the time, thus leaving the melee alone, and the adds free for the ranged to kite and kill.

other then that, I read some guy talking about Defensive CDs etc, I would also just like to point out the fact that if you got paladins with you, they can all use Hand of Protection on people with the mark, and it will obviously make them immune to the damage for the duration of the buff, though ofc not removing the mark, so preferably, if both a magic caster, and a melee have the Mark on them, use HoP on the caster as that way, your not loosing any dps but still making someone immune for the buff duration (as melee can't use their abilites in HoP, while casters can)

Also, Beacon on Tank or someone with the Mark will make this fight easier for the healers as you if you can more or less ignore the first mark that way.

Chamenas
12-15-2009, 08:10 AM
How hard is his base melee hit on a tank in 10 man?

Startinglife
12-15-2009, 08:56 AM
We ran as a composition:
1 Paladin tank, 1 Warrior tank (both very ready to taunt off)
6 healers -- Two priests, two paladins, a Resto tree and a resto shaman.
We had two Shadow priests stay on boss fulltime (never to focus or touch an add, because of thier job we placed them on either side of the frost trap as they would never aquire aggro on the beats and this game us necessary room elsewhere).

We split the Dps as such:
Mage, warlock (ret pally) Left -- Mage, warlock (retpally) right -- Elemental, hunter, mage Middle.
Each side we responsible for killing their respective adds.

I placed 'ret pally' in brackets cause they are designed to respond to an add at half health and attempt to burn it in one rotation. Also their hammer is great at control the second add on each side.

We did have issues with the tank and ret paladins getting aggro and insisted it was their fault and must fix it. If your tank does get aggro however one of your melee should taunt the proper mob off.

Also please note that because of his abilities, people who disobey the mechanics or fail the kite WILL OUT HEAL YOUR HEALERS!!!! Crazy right?

Yah all that healing goes to the boss on 25 man 5% of his health is 1.5 Million.

brawl
12-15-2009, 10:47 AM
We failed a bunch on this last night - never got him past 20% or so.

Group make up was:

1 war tank, 1 paladin tank
Melee DPS: Rogue, DK
Ranged: 3 Arcane Mages, 1 Hunter
Healers: 1 Holy Paladin, 1 Druid

At one point, one of our mages left and we brought in an elemental shaman. According to the recounts, we did really well with beasts and hardly had anyone ever get hit. The problem seemed to be that our DPS was just too low. The ranged DPS averaged around 2.5 to 3k, due to constantly having to switch targets. We generally would get him to about 50% before the first mark hit. We're in an average of probably around 226 to 232 gear and range anywhere from 2500 to 2800 WoWHeroes gear scores.

I'm not sure what we're doing wrong - we do have some cases of people getting hit by blood nova, but generally it wasn't too bad and we had the ranged moving around to help kill the adds so they sometimes got caught by it.

We're thinking about switching 2 ranged to add duty only and having all the others DPS the boss constantly to try and just get him down faster. Neither of the tanks have a good DPS set, so it's better for us to use the tank switch method. We actually hit the enrage timer a couple of times.

We did get him to 20% a couple of times but someone usually was marked by then and died, so he'd heal for 5% and then we'd be screwed.

Our average total DPS for the fight was around 26k.

Anyone have any tips for what we could try? It seems we're executing well, I think we may just be a little undergeared in terms of DPS or need to concentrate more people on him and burning him down.

Shaolinsnake
12-15-2009, 11:08 AM
Although plenty of posts have already been made, thought I may as well add our setup for any who might find it useful. Killed him on 10 man the other night.

We ran with:
1 tank (Me, prot warrior)
2 healers (resto shaman, resto druid)
7 dps (hunter, boomkin, arcane mage, enhance shammy, feral druid, Deathknight and ret pally)

On our first night we ran with an extra healer (holy priest i think) but kept losing people around 5-10% to the mark, which healed him, which just led in wipes. The second night our priest couldn't come, replaced him with a hunter and we one shot him. Boomkin and mage blew up the adds with a frost trap in the middle and we burned him down with only 2 marks, first one comming at 35%.

If we had run with the 2 tanks on the first night things might have been different, but i think the 3 healers would have slowed things down to much. 2 healers on the second night was very smooth, especially up until the first mark but I think our dps was also fairly high. Our second tank, who went ret for the encounter was lowest on the dps meters, but still at 5200. Hope this info helps.

Lanore
12-15-2009, 01:09 PM
We downed him on 10 man last night. Our group was:
Prot War
Prot Pally
Tree
Disc Priest
Mage
Shadow Priest
Rogue
DK x 2
Fury War

Normally we would have a Boomkin in place of one of the DK's, but we had to fill in this week. Two ranged on the adds was plenty, we had our resto druid root the right one while mage and spriest blew up the left, then they switched to right. Tanks taunted at every rune of blood cast to keep him from healing. We also made the decision to let the first mark of champion kill it's victim. This helped limit him getting a to 100 BP a second time. Yes he healed for 5%.. but that was easily overcome with dps. We killed him on the third attempt with the first mark being thrown at us when he was at 30% health. He only cast it once and we got the "Mess" acheivement.

I would recommend at least 3 ranged dps (tho it obviously can be done with 2) in the group and 2 healing was easy. Letting the first Mark of Champion die is probably a choice we will use again as well (as long as that person isn't a healer).

keebz
12-15-2009, 01:23 PM
other then that, I read some guy talking about Defensive CDs etc, I would also just like to point out the fact that if you got paladins with you, they can all use Hand of Protection on people with the mark, and it will obviously make them immune to the damage for the duration of the buff, though ofc not removing the mark, so preferably, if both a magic caster, and a melee have the Mark on them, use HoP on the caster as that way, your not loosing any dps but still making someone immune for the buff duration (as melee can't use their abilites in HoP, while casters can)

Also, Beacon on Tank or someone with the Mark will make this fight easier for the healers as you if you can more or less ignore the first mark that way.

This is definitely an option and should be utilized every chance you get, but the defensive cooldowns and external healing cooldowns used on tanks should, in theory, regularly reduce damage done to those with Mark of the Fallen Champion (as well as the tank obviously). It is simply worth mentioning in the original transcript, lest this mechanic is not taken into account, that this would probably be the best timing/use of the defensive/external cooldowns. I presume Hand of Protection will be utilized in mostly any encounter with mechanics as deadly as Deathbringer Saurfang's.

TeddyTauren
12-15-2009, 02:43 PM
we seem to be having problems in our 25man.

we've gotten 6 marks in 5:40 of fighting. we have 10 melee which i think might be part of the problem.

heres the log for 4 of our attempts
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f9i160oe3t5etxc9/)


is there anything we can do about the nova? is it instant or can we see the target and run away in time?

Supersick
12-15-2009, 08:59 PM
Raid makeup: Prot pally, Prot Warrior, Disc priest, Resto Druid, Blood DK, Ret Pally, Fury Warrior, Arcane Mage, Combat Rogue, Enhancement Shaman.

We didn't have the ranged to do the suggested strategy so I came up with one to meet the strengths of our raid makeup. This made the fight very quick and very simple and we almost got the achievement on our first downing of him.

The main problem here is the adds that spawn. So I assigned our prot warrior and ret pally to stun the one that spawned to our right and all to focus him down quickly (this took no longer than the duration of the stun). I myself (being a prot pally) used my hammer to stun the one on the left which kept it incapacitated until our focus changed to him..where he was promptly snuffed out as well. Then our focus went back to Saurfang and we repeated this tactic over and over. He got his 3rd mark off when he was at 5% so I know that with better execution and a bit more dps we can easily get this achievement on our next downing of him.

One last thing, we used our blood lust right at the beginning to get a head start on the encounter and it proved to be the best way to use it.

Edit: Just wanted to add that we did indeed get the achievement(I've gone and made a mess) on our second week's attempt!! WOOT!

Mr.Winkle
12-16-2009, 04:41 AM
Killed this guy on 10man last night after refining our strat a little. Pretty confident you could solo heal this as a holy pally which would allow for 7 dps. Although we went with druid/holy pally with the druid helping with roots and the like.

I don't think the 1 tank strat is particularly useful since you just boost Saurfang's BP by a ton plus there's no way the self healing he recieves can be outdps'd by the addition of 1 more dps.

Mr.Winkle
12-16-2009, 05:16 AM
we seem to be having problems in our 25man.

we've gotten 6 marks in 5:40 of fighting. we have 10 melee which i think might be part of the problem.

heres the log for 4 of our attempts
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f9i160oe3t5etxc9/)


is there anything we can do about the nova? is it instant or can we see the target and run away in time?

I'm not sure whether it's instant or not but looking at the logs i would guess that 1 of your ranged dps was within 12 yards of the warriors that were affected by bloodnova.

Looking at try 4 (since i'm guessing everyone understood the fight a bit better) bloodnova only generates 25 BP, which seems reasonable enough.

Your paladin tank took 96 hits with rune of blood active, thats 96 BP to saurfang and 2.4m HP healed, when, with appropriate tank switching that number should be closer to 0. Don't use the single tank strat.

You also chose to keep the marked victims alive, that generated an additional 219 BP on your last attempt. When letting them die would have negated that completely.

Total BP generated:
BloodNova: 25
Rune of Blood: 96
Mark of Champion: 219
Boiling blood: 202 (this ones unavoidable)
Blood beasts: 45 (meh...in an ideal world this'd be 0 but 45's not going to kill you)

Thats a total of: 587 BP, so you almost hit a 6th mark

If you tank swap and let each of the Mark'd die this will reduce to 272 BP, only enough for 2 marks at the time you died. The only downside to letting the marks die is the 5% heal to saurfang, however that would only equate to 3.5m HP. Your single tank strat generated 2.4m HP to this really only leaves you with a 1.1m HP deficit to overcome.

Hope that helps.

Treston
12-16-2009, 08:34 AM
It's either been a dps issue for us, or a tank issue, i.e. me or the other tank being negligent on the taunts causing heals, that's been the source of our stumbling block so far.

We are consistently surviving his abilities, slowing his blood power through good kiting, good killing of the beasts and lots of priest bubbles, but it seems every time we've got a good handle on the blood power we hit the hard enrage, which seems to be right at 8 minutes. So our dps needs to pick up a bit, or we need to stop healing so much.

Ran it with two healers last night and the best we got it to was 25% (before the marks healed him back to 35+ of course).

Anhero
12-16-2009, 09:42 AM
Thinking outside the box with the 'let the first marks die' strat - if you DI the first mark and have a soulstone on the pally, would you be able to avoid any further BP generation through the DI as well as stop the 5% heal from going off?

This was suggested in raid last night after our final attempts for the night and I thought it might be a decent idea to test out.

Also, other than dying to a mark and letting the tank with the debuff get hit by DBS - is there anything else that heals the boss in the encounter?

Mr.Winkle
12-16-2009, 09:44 AM
It's either been a dps issue for us, or a tank issue, i.e. me or the other tank being negligent on the taunts causing heals, that's been the source of our stumbling block so far.

We are consistently surviving his abilities, slowing his blood power through good kiting, good killing of the beasts and lots of priest bubbles, but it seems every time we've got a good handle on the blood power we hit the hard enrage, which seems to be right at 8 minutes. So our dps needs to pick up a bit, or we need to stop healing so much.

Ran it with two healers last night and the best we got it to was 25% (before the marks healed him back to 35+ of course).

I assume you're talking about 10man?

He only heals when the tank he's striking has runic blood. DBM happily dispalys the timeer for it plus announces its application, it shouldn't be an issue switiching at the exact time he does it.

He only has 8.8m HP (i think) in 10man, i wouldn't have thought it was that easy to hit the enrage considering fights like Hodir in 10man Uldy have similar HP pools with shorter enrage timers.

Looking at World of Logs you need a minimum of around 25k raid DPS to get a kill.

Treston
12-16-2009, 10:16 AM
With only two heals, I hope I'm referring to 10 man! Whoa!

It was definitely a tank issue for a few of our admittedly few attempts last night. Mainly because as the raid leader for this particular jaunt for the first try or two I was attempting to do my job AND quarterback the whole thing to make sure people were understanding their jobs. Ended up missing the rune application. There were quite a few times when the other tank had his taunt resisted as well. I'll try and talk him into glyphing it for next go round.

I definitely remember dbm timers for the nova, the boil and the beasts, and for when the rune wears OFF a tank (counts down instead of up) but I don't remember seeing one for when a new will be applied, though it does seem to happen pretty quickly when the old one wears.

Vallyr
12-16-2009, 02:41 PM
Deathbringer Saurfang's Rune of Blood has been modified to heal 10 times the amount of damage dealt instead of 5 times the damage. This will make the encounter more difficult if you try to tank Saurfang with just one character. The tooltip does not reflect this change, but it will in a future patch.

Single tank strat fix'd. Dont do it.

Supersick
12-16-2009, 04:26 PM
You can definitely accomplish this with 1 healer as long as your dps is really good and the healer isn't unlucky. We tried doing it with 1 healer for the achievement but the healer got the first mark and had boiling blood on him at the same time, at that point we had him at 5% before his first mark came. However because of this unlucky mark and bloodboil our healer died and Saurfang ended back up at 12% and we had to wipe it.

However we still got the achievement by using 2 healers the next time, so all in all he isn't so tough.

Zurena
12-16-2009, 07:52 PM
We've taken down Deathbringer Saurfang last week and this week. However I've found that the Rune of Blood debuff isn't showing when looking at the other tank in the unit frames.

I see my debuff fine (in both the in the "target of target" frame & my SBF frame) but I'm not seeing it on the other tank either on the focus frame or the target of target frame, (and he's not seeing the debuff on me.)

The boss mods announce the cast so I can taunt off, but is anyone else having this problem? I'm using pitbull 3, and I don't know what unit frames he's using.

Wars
12-16-2009, 07:54 PM
I have pitbull 4 and don't have this problem at all. I wish I could help you.

Though there has to be some filtering done which is excluding it accidentally. Since pitbull 3 is a somewhat dated version of the addon, the debuff may fall into some random category which is filtered depending on your actual settings.

Demongate
12-16-2009, 10:52 PM
My guild has been workin on him in 25 man but we can't seem to get him down. We use 2 tanks, 6 healers and the rest DPS.

The kiting of the blood beasts has been improving and Saurfang appears to be consistantly using mark of the fallen champion around 60-63%.

We let the 1st 2 marks die unless it is a healer or the boomkin typhooning the blood beasts.

@ 30% we pop bloodlust.

Using this strat our best attempt was 17% before tons of marks went out and we had to wipe it.

I really am puzzled on what we should do now. Any advice?

Chaedi
12-17-2009, 12:01 AM
So I'm thinking one of my guilds main problems with this fight is our dps which is only around 85k for 25 man. Does anybody have a guild that has done around this amount overall raid dps and downed him. I'd like to see your WorldofLogs if you have one to see if I can find anything we are doing incorrectly.

Furthermore you can check us out here. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-c471j7kg2up4zyfg/?s=11267&e=11588)

Furthermore is it actually possible to spread everybody out 12 yards apart and if so how many caster classes did you have in order to accomplish this.

Finally it was only mentioned once before so I figured I'd restate it. Shadowfury is actually really helpful for this fight and controlling the Blood Beasts this might be the first time I actually have used this talent and am quite happy to have it for this fight.

Anyways thanks for the help.

Quenchiest
12-17-2009, 01:29 AM
So, after 5 wipes just going at it normally tonight in 25 man I decided to employ the "Let the marks die" strat.

First try using it and we downed him with ease without a 3rd mark even getting off. I'd definitely say this is the way to go if people are having trouble.

Muffin Man
12-17-2009, 02:15 AM
We've taken down Deathbringer Saurfang last week and this week. However I've found that the Rune of Blood debuff isn't showing when looking at the other tank in the unit frames.

That's odd. I just pull out the other tanks Raid Frame using the default UI and right click and check the 'show debuffs' box. Works like a charm.

The 5 people yelling in vent help too ;).

Maybe you're ui/addon just needs an update?

@people having trouble. I think the first question you should ask yourself is how many marks are you guys dealing with? and can you do anything to reduce that number?

The marks serve as a soft enrage timer (so I was a little surprised to learn he had one at all). You lose dps/healing when someone dies and he heals for 5% + however much he healed from hitting the marked one to death. So not only is your raid diminished but DBS resets a little bit.

I've only done this on 10 man mode, but we found that focusing on bloodbeast kiting and having ranged spread out and having tanks diligently taunt cut our mark applications from 3 marks and a pre-frenzy wipe down to 1 mark and a kill.

Mr.Winkle
12-17-2009, 05:00 AM
So I'm thinking one of my guilds main problems with this fight is our dps which is only around 85k for 25 man. Does anybody have a guild that has done around this amount overall raid dps and downed him. I'd like to see your WorldofLogs if you have one to see if I can find anything we are doing incorrectly.

Furthermore you can check us out here. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-c471j7kg2up4zyfg/?s=11267&e=11588)

Furthermore is it actually possible to spread everybody out 12 yards apart and if so how many caster classes did you have in order to accomplish this.

Finally it was only mentioned once before so I figured I'd restate it. Shadowfury is actually really helpful for this fight and controlling the Blood Beasts this might be the first time I actually have used this talent and am quite happy to have it for this fight.

Anyways thanks for the help.

A quick look at your logs confirms you're keeping the marked person alive, don't do it.

Saurfang gained nearly 300 BP from marked people on your final attempt, that's 3 additional marks and a ton of extra healing required.

I'd suggest using 2 tanks, 5 healers, rest DPS and just letting the marked person die.

You only generated 24 BP via Blood Nova so your ranged were clearly spread out appropriately.

Boiling Blood generates around 300 BP too, but the only way to prevent this is to either have a Disc priest shielding the individual or to have people iceblock/bubble etc (or both if available)

Zurena
12-17-2009, 08:27 AM
That's odd. I just pull out the other tanks Raid Frame using the default UI and right click and check the 'show debuffs' box. Works like a charm.

The 5 people yelling in vent help too ;).

Maybe you're ui/addon just needs an update?

Yep sounds like a UI problem. DXE has nicely been telling me about the mark, so I usually get the taunt off before/as people are calling in vent. Time to upgrade pitbull (and talk with the other tank and see what he's using - since he isn't seeing them on me either.) But it is good to know that it shows up for other people and isn't just bugged.

nethervoid
12-17-2009, 09:10 AM
My 10m exclusive guild put in our first set of attempts on Saurfang last night. We were having serious difficulty with controling the adds with:

Hunter
SPriest
Affliction Lock
Boomkin
Resto Sham (earthbind)
DPS DK (chains of ice on spawn)

After trying it with just 3 ranged for a few attempts, we had our druid healer who had transformed to kitty go boomkin. Adds were better but still got loose and killed people (2 shot).

The SPriest was mindflaying, hunter was laying frost trap and using the snare shot, the resto sham was having a hell of a time with earthbind because she can't keep moving around since the range of it is so small (needs to heal). Boomkin was using pushback. What more can we do? Our make up is:

Warrior tank
PUG tank (who knows what we'll get - currently recruiting)

Rogue
DPS DK

SPriest
Hunter
Lock
Boomkin

Resto sham
Holy Pally

On our last attempt we got him to about 40 when the first mark went out, so I know we've got the rest of the fight down no problem, but if the adds get away even one time it seems it's a wipe, which is very frustrating.

Is our ranged DPS just too low? Are you guys killing the adds before they even get to the teleporter? (seems like that isn't the case for us) Should I maybe try and stun if I'm not currently tanking? Seems weird we can't take care of 2 100k adds with 4 ranged.

Ideas?

Predakhan
12-17-2009, 09:50 AM
Ideas?

We downed him the first time using one tank but this week had some problems. We decided to switch to 2 tanks and it was WAY easier. He gain BP a lot slower and it was a lot easier on the healers as well.

nethervoid
12-17-2009, 10:54 AM
We downed him the first time using one tank but this week had some problems. We decided to switch to 2 tanks and it was WAY easier. He gain BP a lot slower and it was a lot easier on the healers as well.

We're already using the two tank strat. Our ranged is having issues with ranged and healers getting hit by the adds because the adds are getting to them. Although they aren't really moving around to avoid them.

Maybe the tank who is NOT tanking at that moment can taunt a trouble add back through the frost trap or something for extra time? If someone's going to get hit, I'd rather it be a tank since at least they will survive.

bludwork
12-17-2009, 11:15 AM
letting people die is probably not a good strat either, frankly I think tankspot should be promoting strats that will work on heroic mode too rather than advocating "let marked person die" and "use 1 tank" type strats

Weicocu
12-17-2009, 11:19 AM
nethervoid - I'm with a 10-man-only guild as well, and we just got him down last night. Our winning strategy (which worked MUCH better than anything else we tried) was a little different than what the tankspot video suggested:

When the blood beasts spawned, the tanks picked them up and tanked them. All dps (melee and ranged) switched to burn them down quickly, then got back on the boss.

I suspect that the reason this worked for us is that the ranged dps didn't have to worry about moving around, placing traps, etc, so they were able to put out a lot more dps. Also, with the melee helping on the blood beasts, they don't stick around long enough to give Saurfang much of a boost in terms of blood power.

I'm not saying it's an optimal strategy for everyone, but it worked out really nicely for us. Might be worth a try, anyway.

Cross
12-17-2009, 01:03 PM
letting people die is probably not a good strat either, frankly I think tankspot should be promoting strats that will work on heroic mode too rather than advocating "let marked person die" and "use 1 tank" type strats
I disagree that "letting people die" is a bad strat. We killed him for the first time on 25's (10s is too easy) last night and also got the "I've Gone and Made a Mess" achievement. We had 2 Tanks, 5 Heals, and the rest DPS. We basically treated it like the old school Vael fight where it was expected that people would die. His BP generation would remain low and basically negate the soft enrage. Also, without marks up, the healing was relatively easy so we could lose healers and not really worry. We used BL in the beginning, but thinking back it probably would have been better towards the end where we would have less dps/heals depending on who got the marks.

Thegreatme
12-17-2009, 01:06 PM
I disagree that "letting people die" is a bad strat.
if you plan on doing the hardmode version of saurfang it is a bad practice because on hardmode a marked player death heals him for 15% of his health. also it gives your healers no practice keeping people with it up and rotating cooldowns on them

Chaedi
12-17-2009, 01:39 PM
A quick look at your logs confirms you're keeping the marked person alive, don't do it.

Saurfang gained nearly 300 BP from marked people on your final attempt, that's 3 additional marks and a ton of extra healing required.

I'd suggest using 2 tanks, 5 healers, rest DPS and just letting the marked person die.

You only generated 24 BP via Blood Nova so your ranged were clearly spread out appropriately.

Boiling Blood generates around 300 BP too, but the only way to prevent this is to either have a Disc priest shielding the individual or to have people iceblock/bubble etc (or both if available)

The sad thing is we were employing this stradegy. Though I know in one attempt the mark went on the tank and a healer so we couldn't do much about that. Not sure if it was that attempt or no.

Draklor
12-17-2009, 04:29 PM
Being GM of a strictly 10-men guild I can not say much about 25ppl version of this encounter, but we downed 10ppl version yesterday with one pull (here is the link (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/gv69edgriblpgg27/dashboard/?s=7661&e=8019)).

We used 2 tanks strategy (pally and war) and had 2 healers (myself as a tree and disc priest). Dps group had 1 melee (rogue) and 5 ranged (surv hunter, boomkin, shadow priest, destro warlock and elem shaman). Hunter was putting traps as much like tankspot's video guide suggested. With 5 ranged damage dealers blood beasts were rarely doing it through the trap zone and died very quickly. Tanks were changing each other after every rune. Disc was putting shields on everyone who got hurt and I was mostly HoTting the tanks and raid, rarely casting direct heals. It felt almost like healing 5men heroic to me - simple and boring.

After boss hit soft enrage we used bloodlust and nuked him down to 13-15%. Then we just continued our routine and finished him at something like 95-99 blood energies, right before he was ready to put the first mark on raid.

I think with some effort this event could be solo healed with disc priest. Well timed shields, strict positioning of the raid and synergism of tanks make this fight a joke.

Mr.Winkle
12-17-2009, 05:11 PM
The sad thing is we were employing this stradegy. Though I know in one attempt the mark went on the tank and a healer so we couldn't do much about that. Not sure if it was that attempt or no.

How you you possibly be employing the strat where you let people die with so much BP generated from the mark?

If a healer gets marked, you let them die. TBH i ddin't realise tanks could be marked but i guess thats the one time where you keep them alive.

manicus
12-18-2009, 02:24 AM
I stand corrected. The fight was easy to heal for our healers 10-man.

Disc and Holy pally kept the raid up. :D

Redemptiano
12-18-2009, 08:27 PM
Thanks for this guide.

As a Paladin in the game. I found that its possible to avoid getting both the Mark of the Fallen Champion, and quick removal of Boiling Blood.


Mark of the Fallen Champion -

Mages and Paladins can avoid getting this altogether by casting Divine Shield or Iceblock just before he casts it. Having targets target enabled, and paying attention, you can see Saurfang switch targets just before he casts it.

Also casting Divine Shield when you have this debuff, will also stop the victim from taking damage until the duration of Divine Shield has finished (12 seconds) - Lightens the load on the healers, and stops Saurfang from gaining any Blood Power.

Combat Ressing - I found it wasn't the best idea to use this. lawl

Boiling Blood -

As mentioned in the guides, it can and should be dispelled immediately.
I was healing this encounter tonight with my guild, although it didn't go smoothly with me healing, and switched to tanking.

I found that using Hand of Protection on a person who cannot dispell this on his/her own to remove it for them. This was experimental and turns out it removed it.

Quinafoi
12-18-2009, 11:19 PM
So many people running with too many people at range and I simply don't understand this. We got our first kill today in 25 man, we only had 10 people stand a ranged and spread out far enough that blood nova gives the boss significantly less stacks. Healers and ranged DPS can actually stand in melee. Our raid only did 101k dps but still got the kill just fine.

Trexokor
12-19-2009, 06:04 AM
After banging our heads against a wall last week and some of this week, trying normal approaches to Saurfang without letting anyone die, we decided that's just not the way to go. Minimal gains from Blood Boil, Blood Nova, and Blood Beasts, and he was still getting a 6th or 7th mark off by 15% or so, and this hurts when frenzied. That's too many people to toss cooldowns on to reduce the damage (since putting damage reduction cooldowns on the tank doesn't affect the damage the marks get).

So we decided to try what was suggested earlier in this thread but not responded to: Divine Intervention. We had 2 Paladins in our raid, myself (Holy w/ Righteous Fury for adds) and a Ret.

The first mark would die, just because 5% of his HP is minimal and I believe this strategy can be carried over to Heroic mode (15% of an increased health pool should still put you ahead of the game with 1 down). The second mark, which came around 35-38%, would be DI'd by myself. If it occured when adds were about to spawn or just spawned, ranged would need to be extra careful. I'd then get Rebirthed or use Soulstone. The third mark would come out around 12-15% I believe, and our Ret would use Divine Intervention as well. Depending on whether we needed him up, he might get Rebirthed too. Saurfang would die well before getting another mark out. This leaves you dealing with 0 mark damage throughout the fight, minimal mark BP gains, and only letting him heal a single time.

There are risks and a sense of lottery to this strategy, unfortunately. If the mark is cast on either Paladin and you don't have backups, things get hairy. The first one can be prevented by Bubbling just before the mark is cast. The person set to die will never be one of the Paladins if this is used. By the second mark, it's likely that Forbearance isn't off yet, so Hand of Protection on oneself may not be viable. This strategy is best used if you have 3-4 Paladins, in case one of them gets marked.

DI lasts 3 minutes, so if you're taking a bit longer to kill Saurfang, the second mark (first DI) will need to be calling out when their DI is almost over. It should only come off near the end in the worst case, not in enough time for it to feed him another one.

The most important thing about a DI strategy, though, is that those with DI will have to be watching the pace of the battle very very carefully. If Deathbringer Saurfang dies when DI is up, the DI'd players will not get credit for the kill. That means no achievement, no emblems, and no loot. This can be combated easily enough though: when Saurfang is about 4-5 seconds from death, have anyone with DI cancel it. About a second or two before doing so, have a priest (or two if you want to be safe) start channeling Divine Hymn to ensure they don't die (healer reaction may not be ready for the cancelled DI's, and there's nothing worse than having a boss at 50k HP and it healing for 1.5mil).

We went in with 5 healers plus myself (it's difficult to do strategic healing when you're responsible for getting aggro on the adds), and ended up losing 2 to the first 2 marks. 3 effective healers was plenty to finish out the encounter this way.


So many people running with too many people at range and I simply don't understand this. We got our first kill today in 25 man, we only had 10 people stand a ranged and spread out far enough that blood nova gives the boss significantly less stacks. Healers and ranged DPS can actually stand in melee. Our raid only did 101k dps but still got the kill just fine.

This is only ok for low aggro ranged DPS and conscious Shaman/Priest/sometimes Paladin healers. If you ask a Druid to remain at melee range, they will get eaten alive very quickly from healing aggro, which generates a lot more than a hurricane or blizzard will.

We had 7 ranged DPS and 5.5 healers stand at range for a grand total of 13. Our 3 shadow priests stayed at melee and never switched to adds, because 7 DPS was overkill. Boomkin in the middle with Holy Paladin, 3 ranged DPS on each side, with the Boomkin ready to focus on one side if one of the ranged had to get DI'd. Our ranged also paired up and stood on top of each other, since the difference between Saurfang gaining 0 BP from Blood Nova and 2 BP from it was negligible (since he only seems to gain BP from non-initial targets of Blood Nova).

Quinafoi
12-19-2009, 12:05 PM
This is only ok for low aggro ranged DPS and conscious Shaman/Priest/sometimes Paladin healers. If you ask a Druid to remain at melee range, they will get eaten alive very quickly from healing aggro, which generates a lot more than a hurricane or blizzard will.

That is true to an extent, however honestly, if your tanks can't hold agro off a player in melee range when all the DPS switches targets for 10-30% of the fight that's likely the tanks problem. DPS kills the adds. That alone greatly reduces the threat they generate on the boss. Just because ranged DPS stands in melee does not mean they do not switch to adds. If you have a problem with your druid healer's threat, they should be one of the healers you have stand out of the group. I said about 10 people need to stand out of the melee group.

In any case, here is how the strategy works.

Tank the boss where he stands and facing straight forward, in order to control where the adds will spawn. A warlock should use Shadowfury whenever adds spawn. This is the single most important part to the encounter because that 3 seconds of stun time gives all your kiters time to get off a full cast which is pretty much gaurenteed to give them agro. Kiters and ranged DPS are assigned very specific targets.

Position 2 of your healers by the two braziers on the sides of the boss.

Between the boss and the gunship, you have two ranged DPS spots, one of the two will be kiting the add that spawns behind the tank. These two spots are the only two you should need to double stack.

Further out from them in a semi circle you have your paladin healers with Righteous Fury on both sides. This positions them between all of your kiters which will get adds generally heading towards them at the start.

Far out to the left and right by where the wall angles out you have two hunters who kite the two adds that spawn on the bosses sides. You have caster DPS that are in the melee helping to kill those adds as they are kited away split them evenly so they all die before they get to the hunter or to minimize the amount of actual kiting the hunter has to do. Also the reason why the DPS spots closest to the gunship were double stacked is because they would be able to help with the ones being kited out to the right or left after killing theirs if need be.

The two adds that spawn behind the boss are stuned and burned by melee quickly, they will typically be able to kill both before any of the kited three are killed simply because there is more DPS being put onto them. Your last two healers, good place for a discipline priest in particular, and remaining ranged dps would be piled in with the melee. The ranged DPS in there would have assigned targets and be helping to kill the ones being kited away. Assign them to help the hunters kiting out to the sides in particular since hunters can use distracting shot if need be.

Two adds kited out to the sides were slowed by a slowing trap. We had myself, a Moonkin, in one of the groups closest to the gunship to Typhoon the middle one if it needed it. The traps should be placed around the bottom step where the stairs angle. Enhancement shaman drops earthbind in the melee so snare the adds immediately as well while they make their way out to the traps to maximize the slowing effect.

By reducing the blood power he gains in this fashion by reducing the number of targets he hits with blood nova to a very controled number we were able to kill him in 6:40 with only two deaths averaging 101k raid dps.

If you're more curious about how the positioning and everything in this strategy was done I do have a video of our first kill and you can send me a PM and I'll get you a link.

Klatz
12-19-2009, 05:54 PM
Our average total DPS for the fight was around 26k.

Anyone have any tips for what we could try? It seems we're executing well, I think we may just be a little undergeared in terms of DPS or need to concentrate more people on him and burning him down.

We ran with
1 prot pally
1 prot war
1 dps dk
1 rogue
1 resto shaman
1 resto druid
1 mage
1 boomkin
1 dps war
1 holy pally

7 attempts, down on the last attempt. The avg dps was around 25k for the wipes and the succesful was 30k. The big change was that I (arcane mage) went to an arcane+slow spec. Boomkin and me on the adds everyone on the boss. Wipes were due to ineffective dps on the adds and eventual buildup of blood. It's basically a dps+healing check with a blood production management built in. We aimed to have the first mark at below 45%. Hero at the start when everyone is one the boss.

dhcabinian
12-19-2009, 08:17 PM
Great Guides Guys!
Can't wait for my guild to reach this boss!

This is a question for Lore:
What is that boss debuff-monitor at the top-center of your screen called and where did you find it?

Thanks in advance!

Holynite
12-19-2009, 08:40 PM
I was wondering a few things, one has anyone thought about tanking him near the portal? to give more room to move around and kite? plus you dont have to worry about line of sight issues?

and 2, how do i see how much BP he is getting in world of logs? weve tried this guy 6 times now and were just not getting it down, although we were healing the people with mark....this time were going to let the first 1-2 die, and we might try the DI trick or for the 3rd and 4th...

And about the "ice block/divine shield" before he casts it, do you just have all your mages and paladins bubble when he gets to 99 BP or do you try to see who he is targeting first?

Rune
12-19-2009, 11:32 PM
10 man we've killed him multiple times even with random pulltogether extra groups after the badges got it done with the gone and made a mess achievement.
25 man however has been banging head against the wall time..........completely differerent fight. A couple of strategies read here will be brought on bored and hopefully we get a run at it without our major problems before.
We caught it and end of run last time and then had a major stack of vital raiders unable to turn up for the other raid nights.
Tonight we should do it hopefully

kingymech
12-20-2009, 01:25 PM
Can we get any confirmation about disarm being hotfixed? One of our rogues tried it last night and for some reason we weren't sure if it worked.

tried it this second, dosent work still. 2128 gmt 20/12/2009

Darthruneis
12-20-2009, 06:02 PM
Well my guild has been stuck at Saurfang for a while now. We've easily wiped 20+ times so far (heh heh, Hunter = cheap wipes XD). We're starting to get our strategy refined now, though, but are using one tank.

Composition has changed a bit each day (3 days at Saurfang for me, last week I wasn't in the group), but we always have:

Paladin Tank
DK DPS (our raid leader)
2 Melee DPS (classes varying)
2 Healers (Druid always, other varied)
4 Ranged (Hunter, 2 Warlocks or 2 Mages, 1 of whichever wasn't doubled)

Our main problem is that we aren't getting the adds down fast enough, and, personally, I get behind with using traps and misdirect for the beasts so much that I have hardly any time to DPS the boss after the initial burn of about 15%. I did, however, use a macro to keep Aimed Shot up at least 90% of the time on Saurfang, which helped by a TON, especially with one tank.

The lowest we ever got him was about 5.9M or so, the adds being the major problem.

Aimed Shot made things go far more smoothly, and gave us 900K more progression. We tried having me use Freezing Arrow so I could stay mostly on the boss, but that still didn't work.

Wars
12-20-2009, 06:07 PM
Well my guild has been stuck at Saurfang for a while now. We've easily wiped 20+ times so far (heh heh, Hunter = cheap wipes XD). We're starting to get our strategy refined now, though, but are using one tank.

Composition has changed a bit each day (3 days at Saurfang for me, last week I wasn't in the group), but we always have:

Paladin Tank
DK DPS (our raid leader)
2 Melee DPS (classes varying)
2 Healers (Druid always, other varied)
4 Ranged (Hunter, 2 Warlocks or 2 Mages, 1 of whichever wasn't doubled)

Our main problem is that we aren't getting the adds down fast enough, and, personally, I get behind with using traps and misdirect for the beasts so much that I have hardly any time to DPS the boss after the initial burn of about 15%. I did, however, use a macro to keep Aimed Shot up at least 90% of the time on Saurfang, which helped by a TON, especially with one tank.

The lowest we ever got him was about 5.9M or so, the adds being the major problem.

Aimed Shot made things go far more smoothly, and gave us 900K more progression. We tried having me use Freezing Arrow so I could stay mostly on the boss, but that still didn't work.

Short notes that might not be what you want to hear, but you need to:

1) they changed it so you literally can't one tank it, get another tank. At least it's insanely much more difficult to tank and you're "not doing it right" if you try to.
Here's your proof: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/12/21971507971-deathbringer-saurfang-hotfix.html
Basically, every time he hits your tank, during the time the debuff is up on him, Deathbringer will heal for 10X that amount. So you're looking at him healing probably 5 million+ during the course of the fight.
2) Ranged usually don't get time to dps the boss on this guy when you're going for your first kill.

Your job is to control the adds via MD and traps in this fight, screw your dps.

Darthruneis
12-20-2009, 08:18 PM
Short notes that might not be what you want to hear, but you need to:

1) they changed it so you literally can't one tank it, get another tank. At least it's insanely much more difficult to tank and you're "not doing it right" if you try to.
Here's your proof: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Deathbringer Saurfang Hotfix (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/12/21971507971-deathbringer-saurfang-hotfix.html)
Basically, every time he hits your tank, during the time the debuff is up on him, Deathbringer will heal for 10X that amount. So you're looking at him healing probably 5 million+ during the course of the fight.
2) Ranged usually don't get time to dps the boss on this guy when you're going for your first kill.

Your job is to control the adds via MD and traps in this fight, screw your dps.

Well, the tanking situation is up to the raid leader, I'll suggest it next time, though. But I meant that ALL of our ranged DPS is on the adds for far too long (or they're not on them soon enough). And that means little to no dps on the boss due to the healing he's getting that the melee DPS basically keeps stable until ranged can get back on him.

We might just be undergeared, idk.

Quinafoi
12-20-2009, 10:04 PM
Well, the tanking situation is up to the raid leader, I'll suggest it next time, though. But I meant that ALL of our ranged DPS is on the adds for far too long (or they're not on them soon enough). And that means little to no dps on the boss due to the healing he's getting that the melee DPS basically keeps stable until ranged can get back on him.

We might just be undergeared, idk.

If over half your DPS is ranged, and they can't kill the adds fast enough that likely means you are undergeared. I can solo an add and still spend half my time on the boss, you only need 5,000 dps to kill one solo in under 20 seconds. They spawn every 40 seconds. Here's a little general observation though. If you want to use a single tank strategy, the DPS you are bringing in instead of the tank better be doing around 20,000 DPS sustained on the boss in 10 man, probably about 30,000 DPS in 25 man. When you find that person, let me know cause I'd like to recruit them. This is what they mean when they say it isn't feasible anymore to have one tank. You can't find an individual DPS that high that could cause enough damage to justify taking them over a second tank.

Mahntor
12-21-2009, 04:02 AM
He's been hotfixed so he heals too much for 1 tank strategy to be viable.

boommerr
12-21-2009, 06:20 AM
We have tried and tried to kill the guy and can't seem to be doing it. We are running with the following:
2 tanks, 3 healers, and 5 dps.

What should the dps be at for this fight for each person? Someone in our group said it should be around 3.5k and higher. Or is there really a cut off point for dps?

Also do we really need 3 healers, or would another dps actually be more beneficial? I have noticed that a lot of people are saying they ran with only 2 healers so they could have the extra dps, would it help if one of the healers we have dps until they are needed to heal?

Quinafoi
12-21-2009, 08:08 AM
We have tried and tried to kill the guy and can't seem to be doing it. We are running with the following:
2 tanks, 3 healers, and 5 dps.

What should the dps be at for this fight for each person? Someone in our group said it should be around 3.5k and higher. Or is there really a cut off point for dps?

Also do we really need 3 healers, or would another dps actually be more beneficial? I have noticed that a lot of people are saying they ran with only 2 healers so they could have the extra dps, would it help if one of the healers we have dps until they are needed to heal?

In order to kill him before the berzerk timer, assuming 0 heals, you need roughly 22,500 raid DPS. That's basically the absolute minimum. Now if you're bringing people only doing 3,500 DPS as DPS, then you're about 5,000 DPS short that needs to be picked up by your tanks. 3,500 DPS is really pushing the low end though. Your DPS should be mostly 4,000-6,000. Bare in mind that people dealing with adds will be doing a decent chunk of DPS lower than they would normally since they will be kiting and using abilities which typically aren't part of their optimal DPS rotation. There is also a cost to DPS whenever you have to change targets. Chances are if you have people doing 3,500 DPS, they probably can't kill the adds before the next spawn because their DPS will be lower while kiting and 2,500 DPS is the minimum required to kill an add before the next one spawns.

Reev
12-21-2009, 08:21 AM
We were doing this on 10 man last night. Our setup was:

2 tanks, 3 healers, 3 ranged dps, and 2 melee dps.

We had no knockback effects and kept running into situations where we'd have 4 people with the fallen champion debuff up and heals couldn't keep up. I was playing as a Disc priest and noticed that healing was super easy until we got to the third fallen champion debuff, so I suggested we switch me to dps.

I came on my mutilate rogue, and brought an extra 5200 dps to the party. We downed him the first time. That extra 5200 dps meant that Deathbringer Saurfang only put up 2 debuffs the whole fight, instead of wiping us at 4 debuffs. One of our 2 healers died to a debuff at about 20%, and the 2nd healer solo healed the rest of the fight.

The moral of the story is that for this fight, more dps and less healing is better.

Volador
12-21-2009, 08:30 AM
We completed this last night with: 2 tanks, 6 DPS (3 melee/3 ranged), and 2 healers. One of our healers died at 30%ish left in the encounter.

The average DPS put out was 5k, and I was pushing 7k on my rogue.

We had a few hiccups through the first few attempts. Shamans putting earthbind totems too close (getting the melee destroyed by a rooted blood beast), tanks (or melee) tossing an ill timed AoE effect, people "tanking" the bloodbeasts instead of kiting them. All in all, it is pretty easy to mess the fight up, but once you get it, I think it is an easy fight all around.

brawl
12-21-2009, 10:44 AM
We finally downed him last night.

Our makeup:

Tanks: 2 pallies
DPS: Mage, Mage, Enh Shaman, Ele Shaman, Warlock, Ret Paladin
Heals: Druid, Holy Priest

Our strategy changed to this:

Since we didn't have a holy paladin with RF, we stuck both healers at range along with mages for a total of 4 ranged. The warlock and elemental shaman were clustered ontop of the melee to avoid blood novas and to give more room to kite.

We blew bloodlust at the beginning to get a head start on the fight. Both mages were running slow+arcane builds and were in charge of kiting the adds as best they could.

First few times we wiped, it was due to the kiters not kiting properly. About 3 tries in, they started to get it down and we got him to 45% with no mark but ended up wiping anyways due to one of the kiters getting eaten by a beast.

Next attempt, we got him to 28% with no mark cast. He ended up marking one of the mages who promptly died - we switched the elemental shaman out to DPS the adds and the ret paladin helped with some stuns.

Got him down but it was hectic at the end. It'd be much easier if we had a holy paladin/disc priest healing combo + a hunter for freezing trap on one of the adds.

Quinafoi
12-21-2009, 11:07 AM
One way to simplify 10 man version is to have ranged DPS only kite and kill one of the two adds while melee stun locks and kills the other. This will generally increase overall DPS time since both adds will die much faster than they would otherwise. The general problem with kiting is that while you are running, you aren't DPSing fully. So even if you're an 7k dps caster, you're not able to do that if you have to stop casting and run. If the mob dies before it ever gets to you, you don't have to run. Split your DPS and burn down both adds significantly faster and you get more time on the boss.

Tanks can help with the stuns on the melee target by setting up appropriate macros like (where "Joedpsassist" is the melee DPS you want to stun the target of):

/cast [@Joedpsassist-target,harm] [harm] Hammer of Justice
/cast [@Joedpsassist-target,harm] [harm] Concussion Blow

Jadage
12-21-2009, 12:11 PM
Alright, my turn to contribute, yay!

My guild has been unable to down saurfang on 25 man. We have downed him successfully in all of our 10 man groups, and for that reason, I believe our problem lies with the add control. Our strategy is to use 2 hunters laying frost traps and MDing to our boomkin or ele shaman (for their knockback). We also have 2-3 rogues ToTing on the boomkin/shaman. I (a mage) usually switch to my frost spec for this encounter to facilitate kiting when adds are off of frost traps, plus, my pet frost nova is spectacular. All ranged burn the adds, then switch to boss.

This strategy always works very well until around 15%. At this time, saurfang is in his light enrage, and for some reason, the adds get out of control. Is there something wrong with our strategy? Or is the problem more likely that our ranged are for some reason losing focus and not doing their jobs?

Quinafoi
12-21-2009, 12:29 PM
Alright, my turn to contribute, yay!

My guild has been unable to down saurfang on 25 man. We have downed him successfully in all of our 10 man groups, and for that reason, I believe our problem lies with the add control. Our strategy is to use 2 hunters laying frost traps and MDing to our boomkin or ele shaman (for their knockback). We also have 2-3 rogues ToTing on the boomkin/shaman. I (a mage) usually switch to my frost spec for this encounter to facilitate kiting when adds are off of frost traps, plus, my pet frost nova is spectacular. All ranged burn the adds, then switch to boss.

This strategy always works very well until around 15%. At this time, saurfang is in his light enrage, and for some reason, the adds get out of control. Is there something wrong with our strategy? Or is the problem more likely that our ranged are for some reason losing focus and not doing their jobs?

How long does it take you to kill all 5 of the adds each time? If you're killing them like 5 seconds before the next wave spawns, then your technique is fundamentally flawed and you have little margin for error before you start falling behind. If you're killing them in 10-15 seconds and DPSing the boss for the remaining 25-30 seconds before the next wave spawns, you're doing it right. What kind of raid comp are you running with and how much raid DPS is being done? If your strategy is sound, none of your kiters actually need to kite, because everything is dead before they get to them. DPS that is running away like a little girl (in a red hood) isn't doing their full DPS. I suspect that you likely need to use a tactic similar to my 25 man because it sounds more like you aren't killing the adds efficiently enough to begin with that any error causes you to fall behind. See my long post on page 6 of this topic. I primarily am commenting on how to reduce the amount of Blood Power gained from Blood Nova but do mention several other aspects of our srategy. Like ranged has assigned targets in pairs and two of them can kill the add before it ever gets to the person with agro. Melee stun locks and kills two of the adds. I'm one of the "kiters" in the video I have and never move the entire fight and never once got hit by a Blood Beast.

Jadage
12-21-2009, 05:58 PM
Okay, after some more research, I have decided to convince the rest of our officers to try your guild's strategy. One main question some of them have raised is how can you guarantee that the adds being killed by the melee are stunlocked throughout the duration of them being alive? I still think your strategy will work, I just have to convince the rest of the guild of that within the next twenty minutes.

Our raid composition is generally 5 healers(paladin, shaman, priest, 2 druids), 2 tanks(druid, paladin), 10 melee dps(3 rogues, 2 warriors, druid, paladin, 3 DKs) and 8 ranged(2 mages, 2 hunters, boomkin, 2 warlocks, shaman).

Darthruneis
12-21-2009, 08:17 PM
We downed him tonight after about 5 tries. Big difference with having 2 tanks as opposed to one.

First time we did it we got 500K health further than we had before, before I (hunter) was taken out by the first mark. Swapped our priests (one was healing one was shadowdpsing, they swapped roles) and got him to ~30%, killed one tank when he hit Frenzy and we qiped shortly after that.

Did that again, wiped from the second mark going up just after Frenzy.

Fourth time, got him to 21% before mark wiped us again.

Fifth time we downed him, just before the third mark went off (120k-0 in about a third of a second o.O). Got the achievement :D

Never hit Misdirection once the entire fight. Oops.

Pally and DK tank, DK DPS, Mage, Warlock, Shadow Priest, Hunter (me), Boomkin, Holy Priest, Shaman Healer

Hit heroism just before the Frenzy.

Quinafoi
12-21-2009, 08:57 PM
Okay, after some more research, I have decided to convince the rest of our officers to try your guild's strategy. One main question some of them have raised is how can you guarantee that the adds being killed by the melee are stunlocked throughout the duration of them being alive? I still think your strategy will work, I just have to convince the rest of the guild of that within the next twenty minutes.

Our raid composition is generally 5 healers(paladin, shaman, priest, 2 druids), 2 tanks(druid, paladin), 10 melee dps(3 rogues, 2 warriors, druid, paladin, 3 DKs) and 8 ranged(2 mages, 2 hunters, boomkin, 2 warlocks, shaman).

Have at least one of the two warlocks spec into Shadowfury. Both would be preferable but only really need one. They always have to stun first. The initial three seconds gives people time to pick up their targets. 3 seconds is a full spell cast for the ranged people which will generally be able to pull agro off of any incidental AoE like a pally consecrate. With that many rogues, warriors, druids, and paladins in melee, I think you have enough stuns to go around. Melee only kills two of the targets so put 5 on each. If they average 5k DPS each of them will be killed in roughly 4 seconds, there is so much damage going into them that even if they get an attack off it's not the end of the world, one blood power won't make or break the fight.

Have your hunters kiting out to the both the extreme left and extreme right. Though generally their DPS isn't as effective as the rest of the ranged they do make good kiters, especially since they have distracting short and if they lost agro could regain it.

On the add that spawns behind the tanks, have both the Moonkin and Elemental shaman pick that up, if either gets it, either has a knock back and the mob will generally be killed before it gets to them anyway. Since you don't have a lot of extra shaman running around, your second elemental will probably be in the melee with Earthbind totem to slow the adds right from the start before they get out to the frost trap or out to the druid and shaman that would need to knock them back.

At ranged you would have 2 hunters, 4 of your 5 healers, the moonkin and 1 elemental shaman, and the other two ranged DPS with the highest threat generation whether they be warlocks or mages.

Your priest healer should be discipline for this fight. They basically spend their time keeping bubbles on everyone not in melee (since they are the targets on Blood Nova), anyone with Boiling Blood debuff, or anyone with the Mark of the Fallen Champion debuff. The discipline priest would stand in melee. Bubbling does generate threat, though significantly less in general than a holy priest would with actual healing.

By the braziers healing I'd have the restoration shaman bouncing chain heals off the tanks to heal the melee and one of the two restoration druids. Standing out between one of the hunter spots and one of the ranged spots I'd have the other restoration druid and holy paladin and the holy paladin should be healing with righteous fury. If you are allowing the first one or two people marked to die, the pally healer should be using Beason on the first person marked you want to keep alive.

*edit* Sent you a private message with some more details along with a picture of the actual positioning. Hope that helps.

Felycitas
12-22-2009, 01:58 AM
Does Blood Nova generate Blood Power ONLY if it splashes onto someone else?

What's the consensus for 10 man.. let the marked people die?

avh
12-22-2009, 08:15 AM
I have downed him now twice in 25man:

First time we had 2 tanks, 6 healers (2 for tanks, 1 for raid and 3 for marks), warlock to stun adds when they spawn and 2 hunters to lay frost traps and we popped hero at 30%. This tactic usually failed if we didn't get boss down to 50-60% when the first mark appeared and after that we managed to wipe few times.

Second time we had 2 tanks, 4 healers, warlock for stuns, 2 hunters for frost traps, we popped hero at 20% and we agreed to let 3 first persons with marks to die and outdps the heal if the marked person wasn't a tank. Worked like a charm and oneshotted the boss with ease after changing to this tactic. Don't remember how many marks we got, but we got the achievement. So if you are struggling with this encounter and have 2 healers with well geared (prob t8.25+ is enough) dps offspec, then give it a try.

Olat
12-22-2009, 11:59 PM
Guild Downed Saurfang and got "Ive gone and Made a Mess" on our first Saurfang kill. After browsing Tankspot and all my other start sites We couldn't find out what to do about the marks going out so fast and people dying. So heres what we learned.

1. Healadins with Righteous Fury + MD from Hunters + Hurricane from a Boomkin to get all 5 adds moving through the hunter Traps is Golden.

2. All Melee stops ANY AoE attack 3-5 Seconds before Adds spawn. No consecrate or DnD or Pestilence, EVAR!

3. Mark of the Fallen on a DPS? Let em die. Mark of the Fallen (2nd time) on a DPS.. Let em Die... after that start keeping people alive.

Why do you let them die? Saurfang's blood point starts to rise VERY fast when a Marked player is kept alive due to the fact that any dmg done to the Marked player gives him Blood Points. First Mark goes out at like 60 - 65% life on Saurfang. If you let them die he will be at like 65ish %. Next Mark if adds are dealt with will be at like 33% ish. putting him up to like 40% Any marks after that must be kept alive due to him entering Frenzy and you DO NOT want him getting life back AFTER Frenzy has started. Once the adds come out at around 31% you pop BL and Burn them and hit Saurfang Hard. Any Marks of the Fallen after that must be kept up. DPS him down and deal with the Adda and its GG.

2 Tanks, 4 Healers, 19 DPS was the raid Make up. (2 Hunters for MD and Traps, 1 Boomkin for Hurricane and Typhoon, 1 Healadin w/ RF on)

Downed him 2 weeks in a row now.

Tyler
12-23-2009, 05:07 AM
3. Mark of the Fallen on a DPS? Let em die. Mark of the Fallen (2nd time) on a DPS.. Let em Die... after that start keeping people alive.


Letting the two first marks die is deffently the way to go on 25 man.
If you use 6 healers, then you can afford to loose one aswell.
So, if none but the tanks get the mark, just let them die, but make sure they die fast, otherwise he will still gain some BP from the mark which should be avoided.

Using a deep frost mage with blizzard to hold them in place is a really nice way to deal with the adds aswell.

Another thing that helps a lot is having 1 or 2 disc priests in the raid casting PW:S on the ones with blood boil, since the shield will absorb the dmg and stop Saurfang from gaining BP. this should be prefered to be casted on melees, so they can stick around and keep dpsing.

Quinafoi
12-23-2009, 08:33 AM
Another thing that helps a lot is having 1 or 2 disc priests in the raid casting PW:S on the ones with blood boil, since the shield will absorb the dmg and stop Saurfang from gaining BP. this should be prefered to be casted on melees, so they can stick around and keep dpsing.

The comment about the melee is irrelevant. A discipline priest should always shield people with Boiling Blood regardless of where they are because it's predictable damage that can be avoided. Melee also would never run out, Boiling Blood isn't an AoE or anything, it's a 21 second DoT. Blood Nova is the AoE, and that is cast on ranged only, provided you have enough targets at range (similar to Shadow Crash on the General in Ulduar). Melee should never be hit by a Blood Nova unless someone in melee is standing too far away from the boss (sometimes happens when a healer stands with melee but isn't tight enough in the group), or you don't have enough targets alive at range. A displine priest should shield the following priorities...

1. Boiling Blood targets.
2. Mark of the Fallen Champion targets.
3. Active tank.
4. Inactive tank.
5. Ranged dps (potential targets of Blood Nova)

Melee DPS should not be shielded unless they have a debuff.

*edit*
Also, videos still show the graphic effect of blood power being transfered to the boss even on fully absorbed damage of Boiling Blood. This wouldn't mean you shouldn't shield the target though, damage that can be avoided should always be avoided regardless. This may however just be a graphical glitch, it is difficult to determine what causes blood power gains since the combat logs don't show it (least not currently).

Vaelia
12-23-2009, 09:04 AM
You can completely trivialize this fight even moreso than the "let them die" mechanic. Basically, soulstone paladins and have them DI the mark victim, then pop back up. As long as the DI'd person isn't stupid and doesn't click it off they won't take any damage for 3 minutes and Saurfang won't heal. Don't use this as a crutch, though. It'll inevitably be nerfed.

Final warning, DI'd people may or may not be eligible for loot, so you may want to click it off as the boss is dying.

Rune
12-24-2009, 02:17 AM
After finally getting Saurfang down last week on 25 after a lot of wiping the previous week, this week we has a rushed run through icecrown with who we could get on, and we one shot through the lot including this and got the gone and made a mess achievement. Go figure
Two weeks not seeing my pally tier token though dammit

Trexokor
12-26-2009, 06:41 PM
You can completely trivialize this fight even moreso than the "let them die" mechanic. Basically, soulstone paladins and have them DI the mark victim, then pop back up. As long as the DI'd person isn't stupid and doesn't click it off they won't take any damage for 3 minutes and Saurfang won't heal. Don't use this as a crutch, though. It'll inevitably be nerfed.

Final warning, DI'd people may or may not be eligible for loot, so you may want to click it off as the boss is dying.

I doubt it will be nerfed, and the out of combat thing is why. If the boss dies while someone is DI'd it's as if they were not there at all. It's important to make sure people know to click it off a few seconds before the boss dies (and if you can help it, BOP them as it's being clicked off).

Bnol
12-27-2009, 02:54 PM
Just posting some tips, some of these have already been said but sometimes they are buried in posts

General tips

-If you have not used the let the marked players die strategy then you should try it.
Right now it is pointless to worry about heroics, we wont see heroics for at least a month or so. Saurfang will block your way when the new wing is out so you want to do anything you can to defeat him and worry about adjusting the strategy later. Also, you can sacrifice healers with this strat if you run with 5 or more healers, 4 healers can heal through the fight if there are few marks active. The only members you can't sacrifice are your tanks.

-Bring as few healers as possible.
DPS is much more important than healing in this fight. There is a point where the healers cannot keep up with the number of marks, and the BP gain is just too great. 5 healers in 25 and 2 healers in 10 is plenty. You could probably get away with 4 healers and 1 healer with sufficient dps. Also, your holy priests and shaman healers should be dpsing until you have marks out that you be healing through. Disc priests still need to be shielding people to reduce BP gain and paladins and druids can keep up the tanks and raid on their own when no marks are out.

-If you can't fully spread out to avoid blood nova, stack a few people on top of each other.
You should have your priests (shadow/holy/disc) in melee with the boss to reduce the number of people you have at ranged, they can fade and should be outputting less threat than your resto druids/holy paladins with RF and the shadow priest should be doing less aggro than your other ranged dps, notably hunters/warlocks. If you still can't adequately spread out have a couple people stack on top of each other. The guaranteed 2 BP is better than having 4-5 BP if you don't have enough room.

Add tips

-If you have trouble with the adds pair up ranged dps to focus on a particular add.
You assign an add to each pair of ranged dps and have them separated from each other (not across the room from each other because they might not be able to dps properly). Preferably you have at least one of them with a threat reducing ability that they can use when the add gets close, then the add will move to the other person. You should not have to move at all with 2 dps on an add that should be bouncing between them. This also keeps adds off of healers and/or incidental melee aoe because the direct dps should output considerable more threat than healing or that aoe.

-If you have trouble with adds you can have an unholy DK spec into desecration . It isn't a huge dps loss but it ensures that most of the adds are initially snared when they come and you can just lay hunter traps further away from the boss to have more slow areas. The DK might have to adjust his positioning a bit to be able to get the adds within the desecration area. Alternatively you can assign DKs to Chains of Ice (CoI) particular mobs to have an increased snare. But the target switching of mutliple dks might not be worth the dps loss compared to one unholy dks grabbing desecration.

-Melee can help kill adds
Just have somebody stun it or you can have a DK CoI move away and taunt. The add should die within the stun or the taunt.


Healing Tips:

-Assign paladin beacon targets on marks that you will keep up. Only one tank is taking damage at a time and the tank swaps occur much quicker than the beacon duration. It is easier to fire up the beacon on a marked target and then heal whatever tank is currently tanking, than it is to constantly be changing beacon on the tanks while healing that marked target.

-Have the resto shaman heal 2-3 melee marks. It is quite easy for a resto shaman to heal the marked melee players they can easily keep up 2 marked targets in melee on their own and can keep up 3-4 of them comfortably with some WG and CoH help thrown in.

-Make sure your disc priests are abusing absorb mechanics. They should even direct heal blood boil targets to stack up divine aegis absorbs. Any fully absorbed tick will not generate BP.

Helistar
12-28-2009, 06:38 AM
Has anyone "measured" which is the minimum number of distance needed to keep the blood nova off the melee? Minimizing them would make it easier to handle novas/repositioning/add kiting.

Quinafoi
12-28-2009, 07:25 AM
Has anyone "measured" which is the minimum number of distance needed to keep the blood nova off the melee? Minimizing them would make it easier to handle novas/repositioning/add kiting.

Don't have enough test cases however my data would point towards 10 in 25 man and 4 in 10 man (40% of the total raid size, identical to General Vezax Shadow Crash).

With 10 out melee got hit by none, with 9 out melee got hit by one though it's difficult to determine if it was actually cast on a melee or potentially a healer who might have simply been standing a little too far back and not stacking correctly.

brawl
12-29-2009, 10:05 AM
We tried again last night - got no further than 15%.

Make up was:

1 prot war, 1 prot pally
1 holy pally, 1 resto druid
1 elemental shaman
1 enhancement shaman
1 arcane/slow mage
1 hunter
1 warlock
1 rogue

On our previous kill we had gotten it by only dedicating two of our ranged to kill and kite the adds, while the rest of the DPS concentrated on Saurfang. However, this time we had more trouble with that - our kiters just weren't killing adds quickly enough and often ended up running around, which in turn, lowered their DPS.

Our average raid DPS was around 30k - our best attempt we got 1 mark around 35%, but then lost it during the frenzy.

Quinafoi
12-29-2009, 01:11 PM
Have your melee DPS kill one of the adds and ranged kill the other. They are susceptable to stuns and you have a rogue which provides some stuns as well as your Prot Warrior can throw out a Shockwave as well in that general direction. If its stunned, it's not generating Blood Power. Apply enough DPS to each target such that no one has to kite. If you have to kite, DPS drops substantially.

Karrjin
12-29-2009, 02:57 PM
Just tried the 10 man version with 2 tanks, 3 heals and 5 DPS.
I am wondering, what is a good average raid DPS to aim for in 10 man?

Quinafoi
12-29-2009, 07:17 PM
The theoretical absolute minimum for 10 man is around 22,500 raid DPS that's the minimum required assuming the boss never heals at all and you kill him before the berzerk timer. Most 10 mans will have around 30,000 raid DPS for this fight.

Pieterman
12-30-2009, 06:41 AM
We had a few problems with this fight, mainly cause we had to take 2 healers :p reached the berserk timer once on his last 300k health :( wiped on the rest of the attempts.
Me and the other tank stunned the blood beasts with shockwave and hammer of justice, to buy us another 4 sec to kill them. This was dangerous however, cause we may get aggro from doing so, but we usually didnt, since our hunters outthreated us.

Karrjin
12-30-2009, 06:58 AM
Thanks for the hints - now he is down on second try. Did it with 2 tanks, 2 heals and rest dps.
Taunting at exactly the right time on BloodRune and add-management is absolutely crucial in this fight. Extra DPS can make up for 1 or 2 tank mistakes but I think that's about it.
We did not let anyone die from the mark.

Quinafoi
12-30-2009, 07:41 AM
We had a few problems with this fight, mainly cause we had to take 2 healers :p reached the berserk timer once on his last 300k health :( wiped on the rest of the attempts.
Me and the other tank stunned the blood beasts with shockwave and hammer of justice, to buy us another 4 sec to kill them. This was dangerous however, cause we may get aggro from doing so, but we usually didnt, since our hunters outthreated us.

If you're hitting the Berzerk timer you have insufficient DPS and have to either get stronger players, farm more gear that you should already have by this point, or revise your strategy to improve DPS efficiency. Once the boss is berzerk, Mark of the Fallen Champion will one shot people and heal him for a lot of health basically instantly after going berzerk.

Karrjin
12-30-2009, 05:41 PM
If you're hitting the Berzerk timer you have insufficient DPS and have to either get stronger players, farm more gear that you should already have by this point, or revise your strategy to improve DPS efficiency.
It is also possible they are letting Saurfang heal too much because the 2 tanks are lazy and/or slow on their taunts.

Xlight
12-31-2009, 05:57 AM
There was hardly any mention of priest healers until page 7 :O.

Boiling Blood is THE largest and most continual contribution to the amount of BP gained by Saurfang, particularly on 25 man.

First mentioned by Quinafoi:


Your priest healer should be discipline for this fight. They basically spend their time keeping bubbles on everyone not in melee (since they are the targets on Blood Nova), anyone with Boiling Blood debuff, or anyone with the Mark of the Fallen Champion debuff.and then clarrified further by him:


The comment about the melee is irrelevant. A discipline priest should always shield people with Boiling Blood regardless of where they are because it's predictable damage that can be avoided. Melee also would never run out, Boiling Blood isn't an AoE or anything, it's a 21 second DoT.Now I not 100% sure, but I do not think the priest HAS to be discipline. What I mean to say is, I think ANY shield effect can work to reduce the amount of BP Saurfang gets from Boiling Blood. Again, I say I am not sure on this, but I am essentially suggesting that the dot need not be absorbed completely, but even just partially, and this will still limit the BP Saurfang gains.

There's really just 2 "tips" to trivialising this fight on 25 man:

1. Bring at least one priest and his absolute number one focus is get shields up fast on players with Boiling Blood.

2. Dealing with the adds well...slowing effects, focus fire (assist assigned dpsers), CC, push back, aoe stuns etc etc

Our last two attepts made this boss look by far the easiest of the 4 bosses.

Our second most recent attempt we wanted to see how few Marks we could restrict him to by allowing the first person to get Marked to die (a melee dps btw). We killed the boss with him getting just 2 Marks away on 25 man and this is with 6 healers (most of them, except the priest(s), probably fallen asleep by the end of the fight).

Our most recent kill we didn't "let the first marked die" and he still only just got the 3rd Mark away when he was like 5% HP left.

Take a priest and work out how to deal with the adds well (with your raid composition) and this really does make the fight ALOT easier. At first I thought it was a very high raid dps requirement for Saurfang, but I believe with good execution of 1 and 2 that raids with lower dps than ideal could still down it without too many problems.

There are some other nice tips like good communication that help; for example of when to use hand of protection on marked people.

So that was my input on Saurfang 25 man. I read 7 pages of barely a mention of priests and then page 7 saw some and just wanted to bump this important factor. Also to mention that it may not need to be full absorption for the boss to not gain BP from Boiling Blood (eg. sacred shield). If you read Deathbringer Saurfang - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Deathbringer_Saurfang) you can see the mention of shielding boiling blood there even.

Quinafoi
12-31-2009, 07:32 AM
If your priest isn't dual speced for discipline, then by all means, make due with what you have. If a raid has only one priest in it, and they are dual speced holy and discipline, and would choose to heal this fight as holy rather than discipline... as a raid leader I think its time to start shoping for a new priest.

Discipline is the spec designed for damage prevention, holy is the spec designed for healing damage taken. Functionally holy paladins, restoration shaman and restoration druids also are designed for healing damage taken. Discipline is unique in the fact that it excels at preventing damage, and is like several times better at it than their holy counterpart. I would view this priest as simply trying to pad meters for themselves rather than functionally serving their optimal role.

You make a big deal about how you kill him with only 3 marks, that is a tribute to your raid DPS and proper handling of the adds while maintaining high DPS on the boss. If your healer was Discipline, the improved strength of Power Word: Shield alone would lower that to 2 marks if not all the way down to 1 mark.

phaze
12-31-2009, 07:38 AM
Disc Priests trivialize this fight. They shift it from "first mark around 40-45%" to "kill him without marks".

Xlight
12-31-2009, 09:27 AM
If your healer was Discipline, the improved strength of Power Word: Shield alone would lower that to 2 marks if not all the way down to 1 mark.Our priest(s) do go discipline for this fight. The point I was trying to raise was whether the damage has to be completely absorbed or not. I am not sure about this, but in a casual raiding guild like ours sometimes we can't find a particular class and I am wondering if other shield effects would work...like if you have a few paladins in your raid if they could restrict blood power gains using sacred shield...also whether shields from Val'anyr, the Ulduar mace, work. Basically I'm raising the question: Does the damage have to be completely absorbed in order to stop BP from BB or is a partial absorption enough?

Quinafoi
12-31-2009, 11:46 AM
Our priest(s) do go discipline for this fight. The point I was trying to raise was whether the damage has to be completely absorbed or not. I am not sure about this, but in a casual raiding guild like ours sometimes we can't find a particular class and I am wondering if other shield effects would work...like if you have a few paladins in your raid if they could restrict blood power gains using sacred shield...also whether shields from Val'anyr, the Ulduar mace, work. Basically I'm raising the question: Does the damage have to be completely absorbed in order to stop BP from BB or is a partial absorption enough?

My understanding of the combat system might be a little off but I believe the following holds true...

A full absorb fires combat log event:
_MISSED

A partial absorb fires combat log event (with value absorbed as a parameter):
_DAMAGE

Even though they should fire different event types, it's possible the encounter could be coded to also not gain Blood Power on partial absorbs. This is really hard to prove without looking at a combat log in very close detail. I can't say definitively one way or the other if partial absorbs prevent Blood Power gains or not.

Blood Power isn't a buff but rather the UnitPowerType (mana, energy, rage, ect) of Deathbringer Saurfang. Because it is a UnitPowerType, the combat log entries that relate to gaining it should be (one of the following):
_ENERGIZE
_DRAIN
_LEECH

All this asside though, several items that should be in the combat log aren't showing in 3.3 because of something Blizzard messed up (like why Slam alert is broken is because the buff gain is no longer logged). So even if everything above is true, it's possible there simply may be no entry in the log at all because the log is broken.

Sorry to say right now I don't have enough information available to answer that question.

*edit* Did some combat log checking and Blood Power gains are not logged, just the events related to his abilities. So it litterally comes down to counting the amount of events prior to Mark being first cast and seeing if partial absorbs were included in the count to 100 or not. You likely can only do it for the first cast since any following cast may be off because of events which could have triggered gaining Blood Power while at 100 Blood Power, thus netting 0 gain for the boss (mark has a cast time and he can gain Blood Power during that time).

Oedipusdakng
01-04-2010, 01:21 PM
I have been raiding this guy the last 3 weeks only to have him stomp us at about 15% every try. We usually get our first mark around 40% and use our bloodlust at 25% like suggested, but we just can't seem to control the blood beasts as well when we have a marked player and Saurfang is enraged. Our best attempt is 2% and that's only because our first mark hit our OT and we could easily keep him alive. The second mark is what is really hurting us as our healers can't keep up the marked player and the 5% health gain demoralizes the raid.

We raid strictly 10 man content and was wondering if the "Let the marked player die" strat is still useable in 10 man.

Our raid consists of.

1 Warrior, 1 Paladin tank
1 Resto Shaman, 1 Resto druid healer
DPS: 1 Unholy DK, 1 Ret Pally, 1 Enhance shaman, 1 Arcane or fire mage, 1 Survival Hunter, and 1 S-Priest.

S-Priest is usually a disc healer but our shaman and druid don't have DPS sets up to par for ICC.

Our best strat so far has been to have the hunter pickup one beast, then have a tank taunt them back when they close in and drag them back across the trap while the other ranged stun/slow and burn the second beast. Then clean up the other and back to the boss. All Melee staying on Saurfang.

Our raid DPS is around 34k between our 6 DPS.

Kazeyonoma
01-04-2010, 01:56 PM
in 10 man, if you're reaching more than 2 marks, your dps isn't high enough from what I can tell.

imnotachick
01-04-2010, 03:16 PM
Just downed Saurfang 10-man with no marks cast on my group. Pug group actually…

Party makeup
1 mage
1 hunter
1 DK(dps)
2 Pallys(1 heals, 1 tank)
1 rogue
1 priest(Disc heals)
1 shammy(elemental dps)
1 warlock
1 Druid(tank)

Raid DPS was only 26k, Average GS was 5050, very simple strat.

Tank will tank on top of the stairs. Mage, warlock and Shammy (Mage and warlock can be replaced by any ranged DPS, Shammy is good to have though…) are spread out on the left side. Hunter should be on the far right. When adds spawn, have all caster DPS burn the left add while the hunter kites the right. Shammy should drop a slow totem, and if arranged correctly the add will have to go through it to reach Casters.

The hunter shouldn’t get hit once, set Frost traps, Disengage, Concussive shot, Deterrence… If ranged DPS times their procs/cd’s with DBM’s add spawn bar, they should be able to eliminate the left add in around 3-7 seconds, quicker if mage can send a 4AB stack and missile barrage right when it spawns. If DPS gets hit by the adds they suck, each class has a way to stun/freeze/slow/knockback etc... After the left is dead, all casters focus on the right, which should still be on the hunter. This one should go down almost as quickly, with no one getting hit. Obviously, after adds are gone, ranged focuses back onto Saurfang.

Melee should stay on the boss, and should be bubbled by disc priest as much as possible, along with the tanks to reduce the blood power Saurfang gains when using boiling blood debuff and blood nova. After that it is simple rinse and repeat. Blood lust after an add wave when Saurfang is around 30% life.

Quinafoi
01-04-2010, 04:29 PM
I have been raiding this guy the last 3 weeks only to have him stomp us at about 15% every try. We usually get our first mark around 40% and use our bloodlust at 25% like suggested, but we just can't seem to control the blood beasts as well when we have a marked player and Saurfang is enraged. Our best attempt is 2% and that's only because our first mark hit our OT and we could easily keep him alive. The second mark is what is really hurting us as our healers can't keep up the marked player and the 5% health gain demoralizes the raid.

We raid strictly 10 man content and was wondering if the "Let the marked player die" strat is still useable in 10 man.

Our raid consists of.

1 Warrior, 1 Paladin tank
1 Resto Shaman, 1 Resto druid healer
DPS: 1 Unholy DK, 1 Ret Pally, 1 Enhance shaman, 1 Arcane or fire mage, 1 Survival Hunter, and 1 S-Priest.

S-Priest is usually a disc healer but our shaman and druid don't have DPS sets up to par for ICC.

Our best strat so far has been to have the hunter pickup one beast, then have a tank taunt them back when they close in and drag them back across the trap while the other ranged stun/slow and burn the second beast. Then clean up the other and back to the boss. All Melee staying on Saurfang.

Our raid DPS is around 34k between our 6 DPS.

Stun and kill one of the adds. Ranged kill the other, should be able to kill it before it gets to the hunter if a frost trap was used. If you do 10k DPS to the add, it dies in 10 seconds.

Step one, prot warrior tanks the boss with their toon at a slight angle.
Step two, adds spawn, SHOCKWAVE.
- Stunned adds don't hit, therefore, no Blood Power.
Step three, melee kill the stunned add.
Step four, if melee DPS can't kill the add in 5 seconds of stun, you have two paladins which can alternate Hammer of Justice on every other wave for a full 6 seconds more.

You're DPS is high enough to kill the boss, so kill him already. If your problem is Blood Beasts, rather than taking 30 seconds to kill them, kill them in 10 seconds and get back on the boss.

Death is the best form of CC. Kill the adds faster, then you don't have to deal with them as long. You pull all your DPS off the boss, sure, but only for a short time. You aren't really hurting your DPS a lot by having your melee switch targets temporarily. You're mainly having less burden on your ranged DPS.

Other advantages you gain by letting the melee kill an add is they don't need to take any abilities out of their rotation. The hunter can always use distracting shot if necessary to pull the one being killed by range out and the one being killed by melee is being stuned until dead.

Number 2, run 3 healers. Honestly, your shadow priest probably isn't doing a ton for you DPS anyway. As discipline though their power word shields will make his Blood Power gains drop substantially. At least make one of the other healers DPS if you want to stay 2 healers though I suspect your DPS will still be fine to kill the boss with 3 healers.

Quinafoi
01-04-2010, 04:34 PM
Melee should stay on the boss, and should be bubbled by disc priest as much as possible, along with the tanks to reduce the blood power Saurfang gains when using boiling blood debuff and blood nova. After that it is simple rinse and repeat. Blood lust after an add wave when Saurfang is around 30% life.

Why does everyone always say this wrong. Granted bubbles on everyone is in general a good idea, but melee should never have a Blood Nova.

A discipline priest's bubbling priorities should be...

1. Mark of the Fallen Champion (ticks faster than Boiling Blood, therefore higher priority)
2. Boiling Blood (ticks slowly)
3. Ranged DPS (eligible targets of Blood Nova)
4. Melee DPS (could possably be hit by a Blood Beast when spawns or could be picked for a future Boiling Blood)
5. Tanks (always take damage)

Lucetia
01-04-2010, 09:50 PM
Why does everyone always say this wrong. Granted bubbles on everyone is in general a good idea, but melee should never have a Blood Nova.

Every attempt I've done it at least one or two of the melee get it while melee'ing him and not moving from his spot.

Quinafoi
01-04-2010, 11:42 PM
Every attempt I've done it at least one or two of the melee get it while melee'ing him and not moving from his spot.

Then you are doing it wrong and have too few targets at range.

Several causes for this.

1. You are mistaken and the damage caused is Boiling Blood and not Blood Nova. I've had several people tell me that melee was being hit by it, but not even knowing which mechanic they are being hit by.

2. There is someone near the melee but not in melee range, i.e. a healer standing just outside of melee range not stacking properly with the melee. This is very easy to detect because you won't see the tanks take any damage from Blood Nova. If you were in position correctly, any Blood Nova on the melee DPS would also hit the tanks, his hitbox isn't large enough for this not to occur. I have seen combat log parses where the tanks are not hit by Blood Nova but melee DPS is and it is because of someone not standing in melee who should be.

3. You have too few targets at range and because there were insufficient valid targets for the ability, anyone becomes a valid target (i.e. too few people at range on General and he could cast Shadow Crash on the melee). For 25 man the requirement appears to be 10 people at range. For 10 man the requirement appears to be either 3 or 4 (I think it is 4).

It's relatively clear the mechanic heavily favors ranged targets. Our first 25 man kill we had 9 ranged targets, and 2 out of 19 Blood Nova's hit melee. Guess a number between 1 and 3. Do this 19 times, and only guess wrong twice. That's about the same odds.

While it is still uncofirmed, I believe Blood Nova from a 25 man standpoint requires 10 targets at range in order to prevent Blood Nova from ever hitting the melee, and the actual true Blood Nova mechanic is that it picks one of the furthest 10 targets. You "/roll" twenty times, you'd guess that you would get numbers less than or equal to ten twice, the rest of the time it was 11-100. Suddenly the odds of hitting two targets in melee makes a bit more sense because they had a 10% chance of being picked with 9 ranged targets. 9/10th chance for range, 1/10th chance for melee.

Granted I can't say definatively that he picks the 10 furthest targets, I haven't actually tested to that extreme. But it is a possible explaination as to why even with fewer than 10 targets at range he rarely picks melee.

phaze
01-06-2010, 06:43 AM
We usually get our first mark around 40%
...
Our raid consists of.

1 Warrior, 1 Paladin tank
1 Resto Shaman, 1 Resto druid healer
DPS: 1 Unholy DK, 1 Ret Pally, 1 Enhance shaman, 1 Arcane or fire mage, 1 Survival Hunter, and 1 S-Priest.

S-Priest is usually a disc healer but our shaman and druid don't have DPS sets up to par for ICC.


This fight is primarily about managing Blood Power. Your raid DPS is more than enough, your add control sounds fine. You just need to reduce the BP gain from the other sources.

Bring the Disc Priest. It really is that important for this fight:


Disc Priests trivialize this fight. They shift it from "first mark around 40-45%" to "kill him without marks".

Kaddish
01-07-2010, 11:03 PM
OK. So we took our first look at Saurfang 25 man this week, after taking it easy for a while through the holidays. We watched the movies and read the strats and prepared ourselves. We were making solid progress with the pally healing agro to kite mobs routine, but people were all over the place and DPS was way too thin to get the boss down. So we said screw it, when all else fails tank and spank it.

Set up:
3 tanks - 2 pallies, 1 bear (maul glyphed)
7 - 8 healers
DPS fills in remaining.

Strat:
Tanks grab agro on the bloodbeasts while DPS burns them down. We still rotate Saurfang between two tanks to avoid excessive healing but don't bother with frost traps or any of that junk. All DPS burns down the bloodbeasts as soon as they spawn. Tanks get as much agro as they can and tank up as many of the bloodbeasts as possible. The raid focuses down the bloodbeasts and then burns back on Saurfang. We got the first Mark at 60% and just let the player die. We continued on doing that and got a solid pretty easy kill on first attempt tanking the adds. We recorded the kill and will get it up on Youtube in the next day or two.

Aziel
Dark Crucible
Dragonblight

Waterjug
01-11-2010, 09:11 AM
We got him down last night on 10man, and we actually did not have either a hunter or shaman for most of the night. We ended up having a boomkin on one side, and myself(mage) on the other. We tried out having me in a deep frost build, and when both beasts spawned, boomkin would root the left, and I'd wail on the right. If all went well, which it usually did, the massive slowing of frost kept the right beast coming to me at a snail's pace, we burned it down, and the druid kept the left beast rooted until I switched and we repeated on beast #2.

It worked out quite nicely, and later on we had a hunter come in, adding a misdirect to me, forcing the beast to slowly crawl all the way across the balcony while we burned it down.

Our shaman didn't show up, so we didn't have heroism, but we eventually got him down without it. Having it, however, we likely would have downed him several attempts earlier, as the last few we had Saurfang down to 5, 1, and even half a percent before he healed and wiped.

If you have the option to, try out a frost mage on this fight. Focus on single target slowing and damage talents, as the beasts are highly resistant to, and harder to control, in aoe. It worked well, and definitely a viable method for containing the blood beasts.

Happy Hunting!

Waterjug
Eulogy
Ravencrest

merendel
01-13-2010, 12:32 AM
our strat for 25 man involved a buddie system for dealing with the adds. linked pairs of ranged could easily burn the adds before they even had to move much as long as one had a reliable slowing ability or there was enough trap coverage in that quadrant. Our last kill we only had 1 hunter and 1 enh shaman for AOE slows but we were able to put either a mage or a Spriest in each pair to slow the adds. We were actualy short on ranged and so one of our druid healers (myself) taunted the spair and rooted it once it was out of melee range, ranged would pounce on it once their target was delt with. The adds spawn at the points of a 5 pointed star with the top point directly in front of the boss. if your tanks keep the boss faceing the same direction it is trivial to assign a specific point to each pair.

Ranged were told to keep away from everybody if possible but if not only stack with their buddie. Our rets were told to watch their divine storms for the few seconds around the spawn, once some other damage happend to them it wouldnt matter if DS hit even if the mobs were still in range.

We did let the first 2 marks die, 1 landed on a healer and another on one of our OT's that was DPS for the fight. the third mark which landed at 30% we DI'd the mark and BR'd the pallie to block blood gain, his fourth mark landed just before the kill and we simpily healed through it. we basicly had 4 people that were designated critical due to a specific role in the fight that would be saved through mark but anybody else was going to watch the rest of the fight from the floor. Of note the guy we DI'd did not get the achievement but was still eligable for loot.

Leting 1 or two marks die simplifies the encounter a bit stretching out the time you have to kill him. if you plan to let someone die let them die fast, if you heal him for 30s and then let him die he just half filled the energy bar and all you did was heal the boss. you also dont want to let more than 3 die or you risk hiting his enrage as if you are choosing this approach you are already probably a bit light on DPS or you'd go for a strait burn and heal.


for 10 man we generaly assign 2 ranged to kill and 1 other raid member to controll the second add till the first one dies. When I run often this is me rooting the add as it comes out for me due to heal agro. we have also sucessfuly used shamans frost shock kiteing as well as your standard mage/hunter kiters. if people keep their distance and you dont allow the beasts to hit you can kill him right around the time of the first mark if your tanks swap accurately. Tonights run he died at 97 energy and no mark thanks to high DPS and a flawless exicution.

Blitzberg
01-13-2010, 10:08 AM
How many ranged dps do u use to kill the adds my guild is currently using 5 grps of 2 ppl each but we cant get past 20% and we often get 6-7 marks during the course of the fight can u shed some light on how many ranged u have on adds and possibly what we are doing wrong?

Badmonkey.eu
01-13-2010, 10:26 AM
2-3 per add, depending on class and dps.Dont forget to attack that one behind the boss. Nobody should be hit by adds, absolutely nobody, Use frosttrap whatever, move but dont get hit by´em and ensure that everybody goes back to his or her position in order to avoid blood nova. There are mostly two reasons for the fast Runepower build up.
1.People get hit by adds.
2. People are to close to each other

I recommend 4 to a absolute maximum of 6 Healers,2 Tanks, and dps. Let Marks die, if you heal em the whole fight you will probably not be able to kill the boss. If Boss is at 30% just heal marks and use heroism right after biests are down. Let marks till 30%of Boss DIE and if you are dealing average dps, you´re gonna get the first mark @ 60%

Quinafoi
01-13-2010, 01:42 PM
How many ranged dps do u use to kill the adds my guild is currently using 5 grps of 2 ppl each but we cant get past 20% and we often get 6-7 marks during the course of the fight can u shed some light on how many ranged u have on adds and possibly what we are doing wrong?

Stuns are your friends. If you have insufficient ranged to allocate to all the targets, put melee on them. Stunned Blood Beasts don't hit, therefore they generate no Blood Power. We actually have melee take care of the back two adds while ranged only kills the one behind the tanks and the two off to either side of the tank.

Also Shadowfury works great. Stun them everytime when they first spawn... then none of your melee ever has to worry about AoE in their rotation. Honestly, a Divine Storm that happened to hit one of the adds with significant AoE reduction isn't going to hold aggro off of a 15k ranged crit that has time to be cast because the adds were stunned.

You need about 10k DPS per add that is running out to kill it in 10 seconds which is usually enough to eliminate the need to kite at all, it dies before it gets to you if slowed or knocked back along the way. For the adds being killed by melee, assign more DPS to it so they die faster. You get a 3 second stun out of Shadowfury, then maybe a Hammer of Justice or something. You have to kill them before the stuns wear off, but 20k DPS will kill them in 5 seconds.

There is a lot of information about this already in the prior posts in this topic.

n0point
01-13-2010, 07:14 PM
A different POV, maybe it has already been covered here but unfortunately i havent been following hte thread closely, just decided to stand in and tell how we do it(havent seen this on any kill vides yet).

On 10 man he is simple, we have a hollypally and a tree heal, the rest dps - havent seen a single mark in 3 or 4 weeks now. 3 ranged take care of the adds. If you can choose your healer setup, disc priest is your friend(has been said before here, i know)

Now on 25 man is where our strat is a bit...different. We were having major problems our first kill(server lag was one of them) so when we came back i decided to adjust some things.
We bring no less then 8 ranged dps to the fight, only 4 healers(usually 2 hollypallies 1 restodurid and 1 disc priest) 2 tanks and the rest melee. You must have 2 ret pallies in your raid for this to work.
Start the pull as normal, burning heroism on pull while every dps is still on the boss. Pallies heal with their r.fury up, drawing all the adds to them pretty much as soon as they spawn. If we have wars tanking, they shockwave as soon as the adds appear to give ranged more time to get aggro. Then just burn them as they are going through the ice traps, typhoon them back if needed.
If the disc priest is doing his job just right then Saurfang should be at no more then 50-55% when he casts the first mark. As he is ready to cast it, he selects a target for it and the first assigned ret pally targets that player, waits for the cast to finish(and gets in range if needed) and casts Divine Intervention as soon as the player gains the mark.The person with DE just stands out for the rest of the fight, the pally gets BRed back.
The reason why we decided to do this is because of the drastically increased speed of Saurfang getting the 2nd mark when the first is already dealing damage and giving him bp.
If everything went well, continue to dps him like normally, and yoiu should be getting a second mark just before he dies. You can choose either to use the second DI on it or just heal through(with beacons of light fe) till the boss is down.
So far the only problem we have seen with this strat is a healer getting DI - so far happened to us once, and just as a coincidence we were running 5 healers that week, so we managed.
I dont know if this is usefull to anyone out there, but we had some good reasoning behind starting to use this strat. The night after the reset ss when we uasually raid ICC and on our server it is a lagfest every week. We cant move the raid(due to internal reasons) and therefore had to choose a way to prevent any PB gain possible since saurfang was already gaining to much due to laggy add kills or whatnot.

Blitzberg
01-13-2010, 09:45 PM
So i finally got my guild to follow direction's and we did the strat as seen on tankspot's video ty btw guys for the awesome video. In Short it was a 1 shot flawless victory no deaths 4 marks total we have 5 ranged total on the adds we had a boomkin channel typhoon as adds came out and drag them through hunter traps 2 hunters a lock and a mage all pulling about 9k each single targetted adds and burned them down 1 by 1. All and all the fight went very smoothly as i stated 4 marks 0 deaths we got unlucky the first for the first 2 marks they were on our tank healers the 3rd was on the mt easily healable and the 4th hit at 2% on a hunter. Thank You again for the insight guys the post's really helped me and my guild out and keep up the good work time now to study up on festergut cus he die's tomorrow.

Wyrm
01-16-2010, 02:27 AM
Alright one thing i found out about this is that if u have a ret pally or holy pally have them DI one of the marks B4 3mins or so on enrage the pally who doesnt have the mark will not heal the boss and the marked person will not take any damage until DI wears off at which point enrage should hit and it wouldnt make a difference.
Just have the pally soulstoned or Brez'd.

Kaddish
01-16-2010, 07:50 AM
Again this week we just tanked the adds. We even stopped using the bear tank. I am one of two pally tanks we use with Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous. We just throw our normal rotation with an eye on the timer for beasts. We make sure we have hammer of the righteous available when they spawn and we both hit it and throw avenger's shield as the bloodbeasts come out. Whichever pally is currently tanking the boss may also target and taunt an add. The DPS turns to the beasts and burns them down.

Even with the debuff to dodge, we avoid a lot of the attacks from the bloodbeasts. With this strat the boss will gain blood power at a faster rate. However, because ranged is not really moving around, and melee is not trying to lower splash damage his health also drops at a faster rate. We get our first mark around 60%, which is virtually the same spot we get the mark when kiting. This may seem to be no real advantage at first but consider 60% comes almost 1 minute earlier and you can see the advantage.

Additionally, I believe gear is less of a factor with this strat. The only reason we even attempted this strat is because we were hitting the enrage timer with 15 to 20 percent still to go. The first time we pulled this off we were short on raid spots so included 3 DPSers who normally would not be invited (one raider's mom, one hunter on his first 25 man raid, and one druid who was battling a serious lag/DC problem,) with 8 healers and 3 tanks.

I am not saying this strat is going to work for everyone. In fact, we were all a bit shocked it worked for us. I am saying if you seem to be hitting a wall try it. You might be surprised.

Additionally, all three of our 10 man groups use this strat and all groups get him in 2 marks or less.

Aziel
Dark Crucible
Dragonblight

Quinafoi
01-16-2010, 10:23 AM
The key concepts are the same but if you want to maximize DPS the goal is to kill the Blood Beasts before people have to move to avoid them. Movement kills DPS. The kiting technique will cause the kiter(s) to be severely nerfed in DPS.

There are two general schools of thought in this area.

One, tank the adds. The tanks have higher avoidance and threat generation than the DPS. While they are relatively gaurenteed to be hit sometimes causing Blood Power gains, killing the add fast enough reduces the number of attacks which connect.

Two, assigned targets. Allocate sufficient DPS to each of the beasts individually such that they are dead before they reach the person they are moving towards (the kiter, but doesn't actually kite). Often combined with this method is the melee stun locking and killing one or more of the adds while stuned. A stunned add does not attack therefore generates no blood power. Also since you generally have significantly more melee DPS to allocate per target, two stuns per target is generally more than enough.

phaze
01-16-2010, 03:17 PM
With this strat the boss will gain blood power at a faster rate. However, because ranged is not really moving around, and melee is not trying to lower splash damage his health also drops at a faster rate.


With the Blood Beasts' drastic mitigation of AE damage (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72723), you don't really gain much damage by clustering them together for the ranged squad.

Coordinate your melee squad to explode one or two of the adds, utilizing stunlocks. Coordinate your ranged so that they pair/trio up to kill an assigned Blood Beast before it reaches them (damage, slows, pushbacks...whatever works for them). You'll eliminate the kiting, and you'll drastically reduce the BP gain. And that translates to faster kills with fewer Marks.

Oh, and bring Disc Priests. ;)

Kaddish
01-19-2010, 11:20 PM
With the Blood Beasts' drastic mitigation of AE damage (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=72723), you don't really gain much damage by clustering them together for the ranged squad.

We don't AE the bloodbeasts, sorry if I did not make that clear. We are not increasing our damage on the adds by having them clustered what we are doing is eliminating the time it takes to switch between adds and other repositioning. And maximizing the time we spend on the boss.


Coordinate your melee squad to explode one or two of the adds, utilizing stunlocks. Coordinate your ranged so that they pair/trio up to kill an assigned Blood Beast before it reaches them (damage, slows, pushbacks...whatever works for them). You'll eliminate the kiting, and you'll drastically reduce the BP gain. And that translates to faster kills with fewer Marks.

I mentioned earlier that we focus the adds down. The only difference in the system you are suggesting and what we do is that we eliminate all the kiting responsibilities, "slows, pushbacks...whatever works for them" (all those things are just modified kites. OK the mobs don't follow around like a kite, but the basic principle is still to maintain threat without getting hit.) Those things have a cost to the kiter. We eliminate all those costs by having the tanks grab threat on the adds. Even with a dodge debuff the tanks avoid a significant portion of the hits. Doing this allows the DPS to burst down the adds and get right back on the boss.

In the end, the proof is in the pudding, One Mark at 15% on 10 man and 4 marks on 25 man. Achievements for both. With Saurfang going down easy mode in 6 minutes on 25 man, I am not really all that concerned about working on a, "better strat".

Aziel
Dark Crucible
Dragonblight

Rennadrel
01-24-2010, 08:34 AM
OK. So we took our first look at Saurfang 25 man this week, after taking it easy for a while through the holidays. We watched the movies and read the strats and prepared ourselves. We were making solid progress with the pally healing agro to kite mobs routine, but people were all over the place and DPS was way too thin to get the boss down. So we said screw it, when all else fails tank and spank it.

Set up:
3 tanks - 2 pallies, 1 bear (maul glyphed)
7 - 8 healers
DPS fills in remaining.

Strat:
Tanks grab agro on the bloodbeasts while DPS burns them down. We still rotate Saurfang between two tanks to avoid excessive healing but don't bother with frost traps or any of that junk. All DPS burns down the bloodbeasts as soon as they spawn. Tanks get as much agro as they can and tank up as many of the bloodbeasts as possible. The raid focuses down the bloodbeasts and then burns back on Saurfang. We got the first Mark at 60% and just let the player die. We continued on doing that and got a solid pretty easy kill on first attempt tanking the adds. We recorded the kill and will get it up on Youtube in the next day or two.

Aziel
Dark Crucible
Dragonblight
I was under the impression that the Blood Beasts had a very high resilience to AoE damage so unless everyone is single targeting them down and taking them out in less than 30 seconds, you are going to be giving Saurfang lots of Blood Power

kingcomrade
01-25-2010, 03:12 AM
I'm certain Blizz changed it so that power word shield does not prevent Saurfang from getting blood power. I have noticed when shielding myself when I have blood boil the little red balls still go towards Saurfang. I don't know if this is just a visual thing that happens as part of the spell, or if it means he is actually getting blood power.

My group has the tanks tank the adds and we are much, much more successful with that strategy than with letting the adds run all over and have people wasting time casting CC and snares instead of damage. We still use rogues to stun them as much as we can, however.

The hardest part of this fight is dealing with his 30% enrage.

This fight is also somewhat luck based. If one of your healers gets the mark there's a billion times greater likelihood of a wipe than if a DPS gets it. As a priest I can use binding heal so it's not that bad, but when that 30% enrage hits it's almost impossible to keep anyone up, even myself, while still doing my job healing the tanks.

Quinafoi
01-25-2010, 11:55 AM
I'm certain Blizz changed it so that power word shield does not prevent Saurfang from getting blood power. I have noticed when shielding myself when I have blood boil the little red balls still go towards Saurfang. I don't know if this is just a visual thing that happens as part of the spell, or if it means he is actually getting blood power.

My group has the tanks tank the adds and we are much, much more successful with that strategy than with letting the adds run all over and have people wasting time casting CC and snares instead of damage. We still use rogues to stun them as much as we can, however.

The hardest part of this fight is dealing with his 30% enrage.

This fight is also somewhat luck based. If one of your healers gets the mark there's a billion times greater likelihood of a wipe than if a DPS gets it. As a priest I can use binding heal so it's not that bad, but when that 30% enrage hits it's almost impossible to keep anyone up, even myself, while still doing my job healing the tanks.


This is a graphical glitch. I've seen it as well however in the same video where I see blood flying from me to the boss, I also see him not gaining any Blood Power. Sometimes the graphics will still render the flow of blood even though it isn't actually doing its effect. I have noticed this glitch prior to the false change to the wowwiki article stating that Power Word: Shield did not work as well as after. Power Word: Shield does work if damage is fully absorbed (triggers combat event _MISSED instead of combat event _DAMAGE). Also according to the tooltip of his ability which if they were going to change his mechanic they would document that they have to change the tooltip as well, any of his abilities or beasts that cause damage result in blood power gained. If they do not cause damage, no power is gained.

As for add management there is three schools of thought. Kite them. DPS burn them. Or tank them and burn them while they are on tanks. The later two often involve stun locking, it's more a matter of does the tank care about it or is DPS alone responsible for it, if the add is stunned it doesn't matter who has aggro a tank or a DPS.

The encounter isn't particularly difficult to heal, it's possible to heal 25 man with as low as 4 healers, though typically you'd run with 5 or 6 to have the cushion allowing you to sacrifice a healer if need be.

Kaddish
01-25-2010, 10:15 PM
I was under the impression that the Blood Beasts had a very high resilience to AoE damage so unless everyone is single targeting them down and taking them out in less than 30 seconds, you are going to be giving Saurfang lots of Blood Power

As I have said a few times we don't AoE. There are a few multi-mob spells that still hit hard, such as Hammer of the Righteous but that is the extent that we use multi-target spells. The point to this strat is Even though the bloodbeasts are highly resistant to AoE, melee has to alter their rotation to avoid initial agro. If consecrate and whirlwind type spells are enough to out-threat a kiter even for a second while his spell lands or he acquires targets, then each mob can land one or two hits. In 25 man this almost completely removes the advantage of kiting. As all 5 mobs pounding on the tank will gain no more than 12 - 15 blood power per add phase.

You mention burning the adds down in less than 30 seconds. We kill them in less than 10 seconds. Tanking without focusing down would be a poor decision.

Finally, it is important to note that the amount of blood power that Saurfang gets is irrelevant. Because there are two important things to consider. First off, 99 blood power is the same as 0. The mark of the fallen champion is the important thing to watch and since it casts at 100 blood power no one cares about 99. Secondly, no one cares how fast Saurfang gets blood power, only how fast he gains blood power in relation to how fast his health is declining. By eliminating kiting we dropped from going the full 8 minutes to kill him to going only 5 - 6 minutes. Since we kill him at least 25% faster we can soak a 20% increase in the rate at which Mark of the Fallen Champion is applied and still have a net gain.

Aziel
Dark Crucible
Dragonblight

Quinafoi
01-25-2010, 10:58 PM
For 25 man...
Shadowfury is your friend. Shadowfury stun the adds when they spawn, it gives 3 full seconds to pick them up before they start hitting anyone.
Assign at least two ranged DPS to each of 3 adds that spawn to the sides of the tanks or behind them capable of about 10,000 or more DPS between them and at least one has the ability to slow the add or knock it back (Frost Trap, Typhoon, Slow, ect). Each of these adds will die in under 10 seconds, well before they are able to reach their ranged target.
Split melee DPS into two groups both capable of around 20,000 or more DPS for the two adds that spawn behind the boss. Have at least one class with an additional stun to use after the Shadowfury fades (a prot warrior tank with Shockwave works well for this since they will be facing the boss and be able to hit the adds behind him). With 20,000 DPS on each of those two adds, they will die in roughly 5 seconds, if you can spare 2 seconds of stun beyond Shadowfury, they never hit. A second Shadowfury would actually cover it as well.
No one gets hit by adds because stunned adds don't hit. No one has to technically kite because the adds being pulled by ranged are slowed and killed before they reach the ranged DPS.

Conceptually it's the similar to having the tanks try and pick up the adds because your goal is to assign enough DPS to the adds to kill them before Deathbringer Saurfang gains too much blood power. If you kill them faster, they don't hit as much. However instead of having the tanks actually tank them, you can simply have sufficient DPS assigned to each target that it dies before either stuns wear off or it reaches the person at ranged.

Using this method on our first kill we were consistently killing the adds in 10 seconds or less. That's with about 100,000 raid DPS.

Kaddish
01-26-2010, 10:44 AM
I just want to clear up a few things about the goal and purpose of the tanking strat. We moved to this strat for one reason only. Our first Saurfang kill we were heavy on healing and had strong tanking but were light on DPS (we hit the enrage timer twice), so we were desperate for a strat that played to our strengths and hid some of our weaknesses. We decided to focus the DPS on the boss as much as possible. We stumbled onto the strat by accident when we lost a key person to DC. Adds started beating on melee and I watched the BP climb. I threw a hammer of the righteous and suddenly I had 3 on me but the bosses Bloodpower gain slowed a LOT. So the next attempt we tried the tank thing and the encounter was a joke.

Tanking the adds is not BETTER than kiting the adds. This is a strat that I suggest you try if kiting is giving you trouble. There are several advantages and disadvantages to this strat.


Advantages:
It plays to lower DPS raids with quality tanks
Set up time is nearly non-existant we assign a ranged and a melee assist and we engage. We are heading to the next wing within 10 minutes of getting off the boat and quite a bit of that is handing out loot.
Makes up for inexperience, if your tanks, and 2 assists know what is going on this will be easy for you.
K.I.S.S. - Keep it simple, stupid.
Disadvantages:
Since this strat works best letting the first 2 marks die the wrong people getting mark can hurt more.
Since the strat lets people die someone is going to die (we usually let 1 or 2 people die).
It requires quality tanks, a druid tank with 35% base dodge is not going to avoid too many hits by the bloodbeasts.
Altough this strat plays well for low DPS, high DPS is not a weakness you just decrease the number of marks. In a properly constructed 10 and 25 man raid (after a few weeks of doing this) we are getting 0 and 3 marks respectively.

Again for everyone that has a strat currently working well, this won't help you. For those that can't seem to get it consistantly right, give this a shot.

Here is a youtube link to an attempt a week or two ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upGoMR2o5pU

Aziel
Dark Crucible
Dragonblight

sefier
02-02-2010, 10:33 PM
For the past several weeks my guild has been struggling with Sarufang. We have been getting our first mark at about 70% on 25 man. This is extremely earily, and we can not figure out why he is gaining power so fast. Our typical raid make up is as follows.

3 Tanks (2 Warrior, 1 Pally)
2 DK DPS
5 RET Pally
1 Enhance Shamy
2 Mage
2 Hunter
1 Rogue
3 Locks
1 BoomKin
5 Heals.

Highest dps is 9k and lowest is 5.5k. Ideally we would have more ranged but we are lacking geared dps atm. We have considered the tank method but it does not really seem feasable right now to us. Does any one have any suggestions?

CaptainAwesome
02-03-2010, 01:29 AM
This is how we do it and we get about 2 marks I guess.

Tanks: 2 on boss at all times
Melee: stay on boss at all times
Ranged: handles blood beasts when they spawn.
Healers: heal

Bloodbeasts never hit anyone in our raids really.

Setup from WMO I'm looking at:
Tanks: Warrior+pala (total: 2)
Healers: tree, disc, holy, shammy, 2xpala (total: 6)
Melee DPS: 2xrogue (one in greens/blues/heirlooms :P), warrior, 3xunholy dk, retadin, enh, cat (total: 9).
Ranged: 2xArc Mage, ele shammy, boomkin, 3 warlocks, hunter (total: 8)

Shammy puts down earthbind (slowingtotam) on spawn, shadowpriests use mindflay is it that slows (we actually didn't have this kill but we usually do), anyone ranged use anything that slows/stuns they have, shadowfury for example. Boomkins root for example as do three-druids if need be.

Now we split ranged up in 2 "camps", left and right, meaning left side of platform and right side of platform (compared to middle since you spread out). On each side we have a designated targeter. I'm usually on left, other mage on right. The ranged on either side have assist macros for either of us (left side assist me, right side the other mage). We always pick the add that spawns the most to either side and back (the furthest away), the other adds are stunned/rooted. The two first adds usually die almost instantly (frontloading huge amounts of dmg), then picking off the remaining three is very easy. The two of us that choose targets we usually start attacking next add when the first is close to dying. We have all adds down in good time before next wave. We improve this every week.

You can of course also use cheese-tactic, get someone to kite them close to ledge then knock them off :P

Vault
02-03-2010, 02:18 AM
As a note our guild found a couple things that we found helped alot with add control and handling marks on our server which might be particularly helpful for guilds struggling with dps and getting too many marks on this fight.
1) On 25 Man Use of Divine Intervention couple with battle rezing players or placing soul stones on paladins in advance helped significantly with controlling runic power generated. Typicaly in our alt runs alot of our dps runs between 4500 and 7k which can be a struggle without this stratagie to kill saurfange however with it we generally have no problems downing the boss. Typically we run 3 paladins and and combination of warlocks and druids totaling 3 to prevent problems should one of them be targeted by mark. What this does is it eliminates having to deal with mark for 3 minutes + of the encounter if your raid can do 40% of his health in a mark this is easy to acomplish. Generally we found using ret paladins was the easiest way to do this as well however holy paladins can be used as well though if u have both i would recommend having the holy paladin di first to allow recouvery time before the third mark and 30% health. By Using Divine Intervention you stop saurfang from harming the target effected by divine intervention. Effectively removing them from combat and making it easier on the dps and healers to control the fight.
2) We also found that the best composition was to run 2 tank 5 healers and 18 dps for the fight comprising of 10 ranged and 8 melee however it doesnt really matter but it allows you to devote 2 dps per add to killing the adds. Generally pairing higher dps with lower dps and dps with abilities that compliment each other boomkins with hunters ect. If you dont have that many ranged players you can also have 1-2 druids jsut root 2 adds to compensate and that will control them effectively till the other ranged can help clean up. We found this particularly useful in ten mans having 1 dps just control an add while the other killed them if you cant kill an add with 1 dps then 2 dps and a 3rd to control adds works really well as well. Dk's and druids are generally the best choices to control adds unless u have particularly skilled ranged dps with high output at which point a very skilled ret paladin or rogue can control adds as well. (When Rooting adds do not root them near melee as they will dps anything in melee range).
3) Using shields from a priest also helps alot with controlling the blood power gain on targets reducing the number of ticks that the boss gains to his blood power. These are several things we have found greatly increases the ability to control the fight. Hopefully it helps.

Rizilliant
02-03-2010, 09:50 AM
We were on Saurgand last nigth (mini patch day; Feb 2) and he seemed to be gaining blood power at an alarming rate....Normally we get him down to 30%, maybe 35% before he lands his 1st "Mark of the Fallen".. This particular evening however, we were getting our 3RD by 40% at best....We made a good half dozen atempts with the same outcome,give or take...We had the same group makup as usual:

Pally & Warr Tanks...
3 range on beasts...Hunter, Lock, Moonkin...
Then our remaining dps on saurfang..(Enhance Shaman, Shad Priest, Mage) addind to a beast if absolutely neccessary!
2 heals...Priest & Druid...

I guess what I'm getting at,is to ask if anyone else seemed to be having this issues lastnight as well? We did hear some chatter in ICC Gen. chat of similar complications...Any merrit to a possible Buff up to this fight? Or were we just hacks?!

Predakhan
02-03-2010, 11:41 AM
It looks like he is casting boiling blood on melee now so people are going to have to be aware and have a safe spot to run to until it is finished. I am guessing the encounter was supposed to work like this originally as the achievement seemed really easy.

Quinafoi
02-03-2010, 11:57 AM
It looks like he is casting boiling blood on melee now so people are going to have to be aware and have a safe spot to run to until it is finished. I am guessing the encounter was supposed to work like this originally as the achievement seemed really easy.

Blood Nova is the mechanic which prefers ranged targets.
Boiling Blood could always be cast on melee.

Rizilliant
02-03-2010, 12:05 PM
So you are saying prior to yesterday, Blood Nova or Boiling Blood was prefferring Ranged targets, and is now also targetting melee?
Yes i think this could be the problem...even though we only run 1, sometimes 2 melee dps...standing next to our tanks that'd make 4 to for splash,....Ok all, Tyvm!

Quinafoi
02-03-2010, 12:28 PM
I'm not claiming to know the reason behind the major increase in blood power gains. I've only done it on 10 man so far since the patch. I can confirm that he is gaining blood power faster. We still one shot the fight however we had two marks this week, we haven't had two marks since the first week in ICC. Something is functioning different than it was before.

I did not know there were issues prior to doing the fight, we one shot it like always but did notice the difference. If I had known there was issues I would have done a video capture to see if I can see mechanics more clearly as to functionality change. I can't confirm if Blood Nova is hitting melee or not when it shouldn't because first of all everyone keeps saying Boiling Blood (the wrong ability) which is the damage over time debuff, not the area of affect ability.

There are a lot of reports of the encounter being more difficult. Something did change yes. But right now there seems to be a great deal of people guessing as to what changed rather than looking at logs and looking at videos for evidence of the changes.

I don't know what changed. I haven't seen the logs or video evidence. So I won't make any claims as to what changed other than to correct people when they state information incorrectly of how the mechanics functioned before.

Also on the issue of Blood Nova. It's always possible that a hunter move in closer to lay a trap and gets too close to the melee. Or a caster in the melee is standing too far back from the boss and became an eligible target. You need video to see who he is actually targeting with each cast (litterally, he targets the person, they also turn red). So melee being hit by the mechanic may be the result of people being out of position at the wrong time.

phaze
02-03-2010, 02:26 PM
Daelo (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748822581&pageNo=6#103):


We did make some changes to the fight to make the "Just let people with Marks die" strategy not something you want to do, but it was not our intention to make the fight drastically more difficult. We're currently looking over his abilities to see what's happening.

Akrestus
02-03-2010, 06:57 PM
Paladin heals here, I wanted to know if it's possible for a Disc priest or a holy priest and a Holy paladin to heal it (Akrestus - Grizzly hills) (Noir - Grizzly hills) are our healers.
What our problem is i believe was the tank using AoE, but maybe we neevr burned down the adds fast enough.
I was thinking to try 3 heals and get the extra mega uber DPS.

Quinafoi
02-03-2010, 08:56 PM
Paladin heals here, I wanted to know if it's possible for a Disc priest or a holy priest and a Holy paladin to heal it (Akrestus - Grizzly hills) (Noir - Grizzly hills) are our healers.
What our problem is i believe was the tank using AoE, but maybe we neevr burned down the adds fast enough.
I was thinking to try 3 heals and get the extra mega uber DPS.

Theoretical absolute minimum DPS required to do Saurfang on 10 man is around 22,500 (provided absolutely no heals). Most raids which kill him are doing around 30,000 or higher. This isn't a huge healing burden until marks start piling up. A lot of raids do it with 2 healers though currently there are issues with the encounter that are unresolved. So yes it is quite possible to two heal the encounter. With those two healers perhaps, gear wise you're probably fine, so its just a matter of skill. It would be better if the priest were discipline for this fight in particular.

Sigge
02-03-2010, 11:34 PM
The "let them die" startegy is now pointless as Saurfang don't get RP from the Marked players anymore. He will however gain health (and I think 5% more now) if someone dies from the mark.
He is now gaining Runic Power at a much faster rate than before. Also reports says that he might be a bit bugged regarding Shieled players absobing the dmg and still gaining RP .

This is now a heal marked players fight.

phaze
02-04-2010, 05:52 AM
Update from Daelo (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748822581&pageNo=13#245):


We've just deployed a hotfix that reduces Saurfang's blood power gain from ability damage back to 3.2.2 values. There was also a minor visual range issue with Blood Nova that was fixed.

Rennadrel
02-04-2010, 06:28 AM
For 25 man...
Shadowfury is your friend. Shadowfury stun the adds when they spawn, it gives 3 full seconds to pick them up before they start hitting anyone.
Assign at least two ranged DPS to each of 3 adds that spawn to the sides of the tanks or behind them capable of about 10,000 or more DPS between them and at least one has the ability to slow the add or knock it back (Frost Trap, Typhoon, Slow, ect). Each of these adds will die in under 10 seconds, well before they are able to reach their ranged target.
Split melee DPS into two groups both capable of around 20,000 or more DPS for the two adds that spawn behind the boss. Have at least one class with an additional stun to use after the Shadowfury fades (a prot warrior tank with Shockwave works well for this since they will be facing the boss and be able to hit the adds behind him). With 20,000 DPS on each of those two adds, they will die in roughly 5 seconds, if you can spare 2 seconds of stun beyond Shadowfury, they never hit. A second Shadowfury would actually cover it as well.
No one gets hit by adds because stunned adds don't hit. No one has to technically kite because the adds being pulled by ranged are slowed and killed before they reach the ranged DPS.

Conceptually it's the similar to having the tanks try and pick up the adds because your goal is to assign enough DPS to the adds to kill them before Deathbringer Saurfang gains too much blood power. If you kill them faster, they don't hit as much. However instead of having the tanks actually tank them, you can simply have sufficient DPS assigned to each target that it dies before either stuns wear off or it reaches the person at ranged.

Using this method on our first kill we were consistently killing the adds in 10 seconds or less. That's with about 100,000 raid DPS.
Interesting concept that I will see whether or not it will work with my guild. We have a couple of excellent mages who can do some massive single target damage (7-8k) and putting them within melee range also gives us a chance to really burn the adds down faster. Raid DPS is usually pretty good, there isn't anyone pulling less than 4k in 25 man as far as I have seen, several up in the 6k range, the average is close to 5k.

Quinafoi
02-04-2010, 08:00 AM
If you use a very high DPS ranged in the melee group, whichever target you assign them too should actually be assigned to either a higher threat generating target or a hunter with distracting shot to pull it out of melee. Putting ranged in with the melee is simply to minimize the number of valid Blood Nova targets. If you only need 10 ranged targets in 25 man, you don't need 15 people standing at range. Some healers can be ranged, some healers can be in melee. Some ranged DPS can be ranged, some ranged DPS can be in melee. If the mage is your higher DPS/threat generating, they should stand at ranged while the other DPS assigned to the target could stand in melee.

Two adds are killed by melee DPS, the other three are pulled out of the group by ranged DPS, having about 2 people per target (10K+ DPS). You can have one in the melee however that can't be the one who has aggro because the add is still supposed to be pulled out, you are just planning on killing it before it ever reaches its target instead of kiting it.

phaze
02-04-2010, 05:06 PM
Daelo comments (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748822581&pageNo=15#296) on absorption effects and some other changes:


Absorbs such as Power Word: Shield no longer prevent Blood Power from being gained when damage is dealt by Saurfang. Casting Power Word: Shield is not a bad thing to do as the ability will absorb the damage dealt. This was an intentional 3.3.2 change. We also removed the ability to knockback the Blood Beasts off the platform and the removed of Blood Power gain from Mark of the Fallen Champion damage. We unfortunately missed getting these changes into the patch notes.

pertyspell
02-07-2010, 09:21 AM
first off good job to every out there thats down him on 10 an 25...now to my real point
my guild(immortal faction-drenden) has a habit of single healing saurfang on 10 man...yeah i know it sounds like a pain to do for any healer but its not as long as their a class that can do decent raid heals.
now the main reason we do this is cause more often then not our top dps people aren't able to come when we do it for we have to improvise some where.
now for the best way to single heal him on 10 man-first off always make sure your raids got their range check on to help drop the amount of energy he generates. the second part is to make sure your healer is around the center of your raid an with in healing range of al raid members so they can still be healed.
now i know alot of this may sound hard an for an inexperience or lower geared heal it will be very extremely hard. the main trick for the healer is to be spaming raid heals when more then 2 or 3 people are taking damage the reason for this is cause of the amount of time it may take to single heal a single person back up...now i have seen our main tanks go down in the time it takes to single heal a person up so your raid heals are a better bet.
now if your guild is gonna try this technique make sure who ever is healing it has a high mp5 number or a bunch of ways of getting mana back cause single healing it is very mana intensive
yes i know alot of this sounded like rambling but if you can get the main parts of what i was trying to say then good luck if you wish to have your guild try single healing him on 10

Predakhan
02-08-2010, 08:34 AM
Blood Nova is the mechanic which prefers ranged targets.
Boiling Blood could always be cast on melee.

Darn, got them mixed up. Point still stands that he appears to be casting Blood Nova on melee now. I am fairly certain we had the normal amount of ranged so it isn't a case of just need more people in ranged. Anyone else notice this change?

Quinafoi
02-08-2010, 11:52 AM
Darn, got them mixed up. Point still stands that he appears to be casting Blood Nova on melee now. I am fairly certain we had the normal amount of ranged so it isn't a case of just need more people in ranged. Anyone else notice this change?

One shot the boss again this week in 25 man using the standard 10 ranged targets. Log indicates no Blood Nova hits on melee targets. Also have a second 25 man raid that also does ICC and they also logged 0 melee hit by Blood Nova. Are you sure you are using enough targets at range? Also note if a ranged person dies, your number of ranged targets changes. Granted these cases could simply be a matter of luck, in the old system with 9 ranged targets he only has 1 target in melee that is a valid target (likely the furthest one) and therefore only has a one tenth chance of picking melee on any Blood Nova (you could simply get lucky everytime). Since we one shot it there isn't much data, for us the data still supports the claim that 10 ranged is what you need in 25 man to avoid having melee be targeted by Blood Nova. Sorry I can't provide much more insight into the issue you had but for us the issue did not occur (which could simply be a matter of luck too, that's the problem with random number generators, though getting lucky 40 times does seem like there is a trend to favor ranged targets).

Quinafoi
02-08-2010, 12:06 PM
Daelo comments (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748822581&pageNo=15#296) on absorption effects and some other changes:

Absorbs such as Power Word: Shield no longer prevent Blood Power from being gained when damage is dealt by Saurfang. Casting Power Word: Shield is not a bad thing to do as the ability will absorb the damage dealt. This was an intentional 3.3.2 change. We also removed the ability to knockback the Blood Beasts off the platform and the removed of Blood Power gain from Mark of the Fallen Champion damage. We unfortunately missed getting these changes into the patch notes.

I will make this general recommendation to people. Don't change your healing strategy for this encounter. Tank healing isn't really a big issue and it isn't a very healing intensive fight, just ramps up over time if you don't have enough DPS. Keep your discipline priests on raid healing. Even if the absorbs do not affect Blood Power gains, they still make healing the encounter easier.

You will get marks faster at the start, however slower over time. This is because they will be at a relatively consistent rate provided you continue to execute the encounter correctly, dealing with the mechanics and particularly the Blood Beasts appropriately. You get marks at a consistent rate, say for your particular DPS it comes to every 30%, so you have 1 at 70%, 2 at 40%, 3 at 10%. It's no longer a ramping up problem where if the first one is 30%, the next one is only 20% away because it no longer increases Blood Power gain itself. This is what they mean by getting rid of the "just let them die" tactic. Since it doesn't really change the rate you get marks, it's no longer important to sacrifice the first person or two. Your retribution paladins will thank you for not making them kill themselves every time.

TheBike
02-09-2010, 11:22 AM
Ok now i realize this is probably a dumb idea but i feel the need to ask any ways, is it possible to tank saurfang by the portal (after the boat disappears) and knock the adds off the cliff? My guess is no but if it did work that would be amazingly easy.

Quinafoi
02-09-2010, 04:04 PM
Ok now i realize this is probably a dumb idea but i feel the need to ask any ways, is it possible to tank saurfang by the portal (after the boat disappears) and knock the adds off the cliff? My guess is no but if it did work that would be amazingly easy.


They fixed it so you can no longer knock them off the platform. Invisible Safety Railings Inc. installed some new rails for safety. The Lich King doesn't want you falling to your death, least not until he does it himself.

jameyscott
02-09-2010, 06:04 PM
My Guild (at least the run that i was in with the guild) couldn't seem to down him because of the blood beasts (our dps was fine) should we kill one of them and then kill the other or kite them both to different sides?

Draklor
02-15-2010, 01:12 AM
My Guild (at least the run that i was in with the guild) couldn't seem to down him because of the blood beasts (our dps was fine) should we kill one of them and then kill the other or kite them both to different sides?

We usually have 4 ranged dps (2 on each side) who get the job done perfectly. 2 healers are standing between them (close to the portal) and both tanks and 2 melee dps on the boss at stairs.
2 dps do just enough damage to kill one add without any kiting (each of them does roughly around 5k dps). Of course we use earthbind totem and/or hunter's trap right under the stairs before the adds spawn. Boomkin and elem shama are doing their knockback tricks if needed (boomkin on the left, shama on the right). Warlock sometimes stuns both adds after their spawn to give the raid few more seconds. Before 3.3.2 patch we were killing the boss with 0 marks on the raid. After blizz nerfed shields mechanic we are killing the boss with 1 mark.

gifca
02-20-2010, 03:18 AM
thx tankspot for great help with all things, but wouldnt it be best if both tanks mainly focused on dodge for this fight, cause u'll avoid atatcks and thus not having him gain blood power, therefore wouldnt a druid tank be best for this fight and after that a DK?

Quinafoi
02-20-2010, 09:59 AM
thx tankspot for great help with all things, but wouldnt it be best if both tanks mainly focused on dodge for this fight, cause u'll avoid atatcks and thus not having him gain blood power, therefore wouldnt a druid tank be best for this fight and after that a DK?


When Deathbringer Saurfang uses Rune of Blood on the tank, which is the only ability he uses on the tanks which would generate Blood Power, he gains Blood Power every swing on that tank, irrelevant of if the attack connects. His melee attack may miss, but the effect of Rune of Blood can not. The only proper way to handle this is with fast tank switching. Blood Beasts have to hit their target to generate Blood Power, so only if you are actually tanking the beasts would you consider avoidance, which is generally advised against because the DPS should be handling it without the tank.

EvolutionDemon
02-21-2010, 08:30 PM
Not sure if this strategy has been mentioned yet but our guild employs a somewhat risky method to downing Saurfang on 10man. We use one healer and aoe the Blood Beasts when they appear. If the healer gets the mark we just wipe it but this hasn't happened to us yet. The last time we downed him (17Feb10) we only got 1 mark and his blood power was at 80% to the second.
Raid Makeup:
Tanks: Pally, DK
Melee: Rogue, Ret Pally x2
Ranged: Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Moonkin
Healer: Shaman

Quinafoi
02-22-2010, 12:05 AM
Not sure if this strategy has been mentioned yet but our guild employs a somewhat risky method to downing Saurfang on 10man. We use one healer and aoe the Blood Beasts when they appear. If the healer gets the mark we just wipe it but this hasn't happened to us yet. The last time we downed him (17Feb10) we only got 1 mark and his blood power was at 80% to the second.
Raid Makeup:
Tanks: Pally, DK
Melee: Rogue, Ret Pally x2
Ranged: Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Moonkin
Healer: Shaman


Most classes with AoE type abilities have target thresholds they require in order for it to be viable. For example a mage or warlock would typically require 4 or more mobs for AoE to overtake single target DPS (3 targets if they spec into talents which improve AoE effectiveness). However, since Blood Beasts have natural AoE resistence of 90%, using AoE on them you'd have to have around 40 targets (however AoE caps at 10 targets) in order for your AoE DPS to theorectically reach the point where it would overtake your single target DPS on them. If they are using AoE DPS they are gimping themselves. You are in fact single target focusing the adds down. Saying your are using AoE is a likely a misstatement. I seriously doubt your Moonkin for example is sitting there spamming Hurricane all fight long doing like 2k DPS on a fight that requires closer to 5k per DPS. Since they are 90% resistent to AoE, you will never have more DPS on them using AoE abilities than you would simply retargeting and burning them down.

Prinnyraid
02-25-2010, 03:33 AM
This may sound a bit silly but bringing an active prot warr as tank (I am one :')) can be a great help with the adds here. Usually what I do is when I notice a side is a bit slow with the adds I just shockwave 1 add side when they come up, if ranged DPS is active you should have no aggro issues. If I happen to have the blood on me and the other tank is tanking then I actually charge/stun adds wich is a great help for the ranged dps since they can nuke the adds down way faster en move to the boss. I also found that the tank that starts the event can help on adds most since of the blood/blood beast timing.

MrMooky
03-02-2010, 12:38 PM
Not sure if this strategy has been mentioned yet but our guild employs a somewhat risky method to downing Saurfang on 10man. We use one healer and aoe the Blood Beasts when they appear. If the healer gets the mark we just wipe it but this hasn't happened to us yet. The last time we downed him (17Feb10) we only got 1 mark and his blood power was at 80% to the second.
Raid Makeup:
Tanks: Pally, DK
Melee: Rogue, Ret Pally x2
Ranged: Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Moonkin
Healer: Shaman


To my knowledge, AOE does little to the blood beasts.

pertyspell
03-10-2010, 09:05 PM
a guildy of mine recorded our single heal 10 saurfang hope the site heads dont have any issues with me linking the fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-95mKREkRVk
this was recorded on 3/9/2010
this had to be one of my trickier times doing this since our main tank(metallican) got saurfang special ability on him near the end. i did say this was possable an want to let people see it s possable with out any one dying in the end

pertyspell
03-10-2010, 10:39 PM
My Guild (at least the run that i was in with the guild) couldn't seem to down him because of the blood beasts (our dps was fine) should we kill one of them and then kill the other or kite them both to different sides?

main trick is have all your range always on the beast when their out no matter how many you have on either side don't matter range should always kill the beats befor switching back to saurfang.
should a beats get close to some one have the move around till the rest of your range kill it, now it dont matter if you have a kill order or not just make sure range kill them off in 10 man they dont take to long to down so as long as all you range switch to the other ones up when theirs is down you should be fine for the most part

pertyspell
03-10-2010, 10:46 PM
Not sure if this strategy has been mentioned yet but our guild employs a somewhat risky method to downing Saurfang on 10man. We use one healer and aoe the Blood Beasts when they appear. If the healer gets the mark we just wipe it but this hasn't happened to us yet. The last time we downed him (17Feb10) we only got 1 mark and his blood power was at 80% to the second.
Raid Makeup:
Tanks: Pally, DK
Melee: Rogue, Ret Pally x2
Ranged: Spriest, Mage, Hunter, Moonkin
Healer: Shaman

yes single healing it has been noted i know i did it at one point an some one else may have before then

you raid make up is fine for the most part...but using aoes to down them is beyond risky, main reason it is is do in part to the fact the most range can do better dps if they focus on a single target. with the single target it will also make it easier to keep them away from your healer, a druid useing typhoon is about the only aoe style attack worth being used most just cause it give range a hair more time to down the beasts

pertyspell
03-10-2010, 10:53 PM
Darn, got them mixed up. Point still stands that he appears to be casting Blood Nova on melee now. I am fairly certain we had the normal amount of ranged so it isn't a case of just need more people in ranged. Anyone else notice this change?

main trick tank him at the last step an if melee gets the mark have them step back to the door it should get them at or further then 10 yards. the boil is more random then anything these days so don't try to figure it out just keep it away from people not hit by it. but yes more often then not it does go after range first, its not that hard to heal through so don't go worrying about it

Quinafoi
03-11-2010, 08:08 AM
main trick tank him at the last step an if melee gets the mark have them step back to the door it should get them at or further then 10 yards. the boil is more random then anything these days so don't try to figure it out just keep it away from people not hit by it. but yes more often then not it does go after range first, its not that hard to heal through so don't go worrying about it

Not sure where this is going... you can not determine the target of a Blood Nova before it is cast and the Blood Nova is the only ability which requires you to be spread out. Mark of the Fallen Champion just means you're taking damage as well. Boiling Blood just means you have a DoT on you. No mechanic other than Blood Nova has anything to do with spreading out.

With sufficient "eligible" targets at range melee is not hit by Blood Nova. There are ways which melee can be hit...
if a hunter runs in to lay a trap
if a ranged is standing too close to the melee
if the melee or boss moves such that the melee is now at range
if a ranged player dies
if a ranged player is immune to the effect (if you have a paladin healer at range that has divine shield up, they can't be picked because they are immune)
if a ranged player is off the combat table (hunter feign death, rogue vanish, mage invisibility, divine intervention)

You need 10 targets at range for 25 man.
You need 4 targets at range for 10 man.


Show me a video of a kill where he picks a melee target for Blood Nova and when he picks that target and I can probably explain to you why he didn't pick a ranged. Sadly a combat log won't suffice because combat logs don't tell you the positions of people.

M.Sergant Nikolai
03-23-2010, 04:56 PM
the other night we tried him on 10 man the tanks were haveing a real hard time taunting him. he keeped going immune and that made it hard to keep him form healing himself dose anyone know why he would go immune and what we can do we had a Paladin and Warrior tank any info would be of help

Quinafoi
03-23-2010, 10:25 PM
the other night we tried him on 10 man the tanks were haveing a real hard time taunting him. he keeped going immune and that made it hard to keep him form healing himself dose anyone know why he would go immune and what we can do we had a Paladin and Warrior tank any info would be of help

Paladin is using Hand of Reckoning in their normal threat rotation and putting taunt on deminished return. That's the most likely culprit.

Rennadrel
03-24-2010, 08:26 AM
When you have done this fight enough times, it becomes a real joke and when I hear of raiding guilds on my server not being able to kill him still with the damage buff, there is something wrong. He was a pain in my side in 25 man for a while but now our ranged can kill the beasts with quick timing, giving us plenty of time to kill him. Last nights kill he cast 3 Marks, one fairly early on and we just let the person die and DPSed through it, the 2nd person had a DI put on them by me and I was the only paladin in the raid anyway (surprising since we usually have about 4 or 5), the 3rd was just healed through. The key element to the fight is killing the adds as fast as possible if you are ranged. Hunters can make use of distracting shot and multi-shot to bring the beasts away from the boss and then nuke them down. And yes, area of effect damage does not harm them that much, but it will pull aggro easily. When I DPS I don't cast Consecration for a 45 second period between the point when the beasts are about to spawn which is usually 8 seconds prior and then I wait until the ranged have them outside the radius of the spell before casting, same with Divine Storm.

Rocksolid
03-30-2010, 05:17 AM
does one suppose a warrior's piercing howl is useful in this enounter..especially in 10m hardmode etc