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Aggathon
12-09-2009, 11:47 PM
So I've been looking over gear for like the last 5 hours, deciding how best to efficiently use my frost emblems for maximum HP/Armor/etc. gains the fastest, and comparing things that drop, and how to pick up T10 (that's a LOT of emblems, btw, heh, especially since only 146 are possible between now and the next wing).

Anyways... I noticed something... T10.264 sucks!

Here would be my following gear choices vs. T10:

Helm(this one is actually fairly good though, not a huge difference, in fact I'll probably get this)

Broken Skull Helm Vs. Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Greathelm
With Skull Helm the gains/losses are:
Same Armor
-39 str
Same stam/socket color with bonus
+31 defense
+23 dodge
-77 Parry
+74 hit

Shoulders(another decent one but still not as good)
Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons Vs. Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Pauldrons:
With BCP your gains/losses are:
Same armor
Same Str
+18 stam (this is assuming gemming 2x +30 stam gems)
same defense
same dodge
-8 parry

Here we start to get interesting
Chest -
Cataclysmic Chestguard Vs. Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Breastplate
If you take Cataclysmic over T10:
+1176 Armor
+18 stam
+23 defense
-77 dodge
+82 expertise
-77 parry

Legs -
Now there are actually several options here, I'll go with Legguards of Lost Hope because they're probably easier to obtain than 8 Primal Saronites at the moment
Leggaurds of Lost Hope Vs. Sanctified Ymirmjar Lord's Leggaurds:
With LoLH your gains/losses are:
Same Armor
Same str
+18 stam
same defense
-82 expertise
+74 hit
same dodge
neither has parry

For further shiggles and gits, lets say you do get the crafted ones made:
Pillars of Might Vs. Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Legguards:
Gains Losses with PoM:
+1190 armor
+39 str
+18 stam
-92 defense
+77 parry
-82 expertise
+69 dodge

Obviously the loss of defense is big, but you make up for it in parry and dodge and I'm already very high up the defense charts, I can probably take a 90 defense drop easily.

Gloves -
Gauntlets of the Kraken Vs. Sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Handguards:
+658 Armor
+28 str
+18 stam
-17 defense
-72 dodge
+63 parry
-61 hit

No obviously you probably wouldn't roll with all 5 pieces, so lets add up totals. Lets say in your non T10 set you'd use only the T10 helm, Pillars of Might for your legs, and the the other pieces I listed. Then in your T10 set you would keep the Cataclysmic Chest on.

Your Stat difference wearing non-T10 over the T10 is:
Armor:
+3024 Armor (which imo is enough right here to justify not using T10)
+67 Str (though not that anyone cares)
+54 Stam
-77 Defense
-3 Dodge
+132 Parry
-82 Expertise
-61 hit

So basically you lose 77 defense, 3 dodge, and some threat for a gain of over 3,000 armor and 54 stam and also gain 132 parry.

54 stam raid buffed for a warrior is (54*10*1.06*1.1=629.64 HPs)

Lets through in some EH calculations to see what this comes out as. Lets say that these 3 pieces of gear are the only differences from my current setup for simplicit's sake. Right now I have about 53k HPs fully buffed and about 32k Armor.

That EHP number comes out to:
172170.79

Add in 3k armor and 630 Hps:
184963.77

Subtract:
=12792.98 EHP lost by taking T10.

Now OBVIOUSLY this is not an exact number, the armor values would be a bit higher, things change and frankly I've done enough spreadsheeting and number crunching for 1 day and I don't have anything like RAWR at work and can't download anything here.

But that EHP number is just a rough estimate about how much of a deficit we're talking about. The number will actually probably be higher since there will be more stam than my current gear regardless of which items I were to go with. The more stam you have the more effective armor is.

So basically it comes down to weighing set bonuses and a few threat stats over EHP (the avoidance difference will probably be close the negligible) and the damage absorbed by another 3,000 armor.

Is it worth it? Is it even worth it for 2PC? I'd probably go helm/shoulders if I went with 2PC.

What do you think tankspot community? There's always the option of picking up both sets and using them as required, but the problem is that T10 ends up being a LOT of emblems and tokens that could go to main spec first. Is it worth not bothering with other pieces and rushing to 4PC ASAP or should I wait until Emblems are pentiful and offspec rolls freely?


------ The next part is theorycrafting done by Kojiyama, thank you very much for the added help! ------

A better analysis using full gear sets. I put together a total "optimal survival" (ish) set using early (first 2 wings max) known 25-N, 10-N, crafted, and badge items--as well as TotC items barring Anub-25H.

I subbed out the 5 slots based on what was discussed previously. (however, take the results with a grain of salt because the results will obviously vary depending on fights, parameters, damage, etc.)

T10 264 Set
Health: 52718
Guaranteed Reduction: 76.80%
Avoidance: 50.41% (+Block 68.01%)
Total Mitigation: 91.44%
Attacker Speed: 2.50s
Damage Taken: 2999.5 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 16248
Total Threat/sec: 9146.2
Burst Time: 26.12

Full Offset
Health: 53278
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.98%
Avoidance: 47.71% (+Block 65.63%)
Total Mitigation: 91.44%
Damage Taken: 2998.9 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15420
Total Threat/sec: 8889.0
Burst Time: 26.53

T10 Helm/Shoulders + Offset Chest/Gloves/Legs
Health: 53008
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.98%
Avoidance: 48.11% (+Block 65.71%)
Total Mitigation: 91.50%
Damage Taken: 2975.6 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15424
Total Threat/sec: 9087.0
Burst Time: 26.79

T10 Helm/Chest + Offset Gloves/Shoulders/Legs
Health: 53138
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.52%
Avoidance: 49.43% (+Block 66.79%)
Total Mitigation: 91.55%
Damage Taken: 2959.1 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15746
Total Threat/sec: 8746.6
Burst Time: 27.57

...so, you can draw your own conclusions, really. Helm is the strongest piece compared to known options, so I'd always get that first. Additionally, until you are in a position to get the 4 264 tokens (which will probably take some time, realistically), the other off-set pieces (Waist, Gloves, Cloak) simply are a much better use of badges than the 3rd and 4th T10 pieces, regardless of your plan. Unless you are going to somehow prio tokens to Warriors (which I wouldn't recommend in this case) it will be a while before this is an issue at all.

To illustrate this, let's consider a case where you bought the Helm, Shoulders, Chest and Gloves and used the Pillars of Might (because the Legs can be crafted, they wouldn't cost badges, in theory!) yet you only had 1 25-man token.

264 Helm + 251 Chest/Gloves/Shoulders + Pillars of Might
Health: 51948
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.14%
Avoidance: 48.96% (+Block 66.20%)
Total Mitigation: 91.29%
Damage Taken: 3050.1 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 16008
Total Threat/sec: 8753.4
Burst Time: 23.91

...as you can see, this set is not very great. You will be taking 600 more damage per swing, have 1.4k less health, have 10-15% worse burst time survival, and poor TPS compared to a full offset or a T10 264 Helm + Offset gear approach. This also requires spending 60 additional badges to get the shoulders instead of a 'free' off-set drop, which means you would also have to initially skip the Cloak or Waist, which are considerable upgrades over other available slots.

To me, this is a poor approach for progression raiding.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is some more analysis of the badge gear acquisitions as posted by mistersix

Over at Vene's blog I ran the following numbers:

Assuming you’re upgrading from EH gemmed and chanted versions of ilevel 245 options in the following slots: belt (bloodied scars), cape (eredar), gloves (t9), chest (towering monstrosity) then the following is a list of items with the most EH bang for your emblem buck (using the calculator at tanking tips):

Verdigris Chain Belt: 51 Sta, 752 Armor 60 emblems +533 EH 8.88 per emblem
Sentinel’s Winter Cloak: 40 Sta, 571 Armor 50 emblems +414 EH 8.28
Gauntlets of the Kraken: 36 Sta, 763 Armor 60 emblems +377 EH 6.28 per emblem
Cataclysmic Chestguard: 45 Sta, 1344 Armor 95 emblems +486 EH 5.11 per emblem
Ymirjar Lord’s Pauldrons @ 264: 30 Sta, 126 Armor 60 emblems + 1 token +302 EH 5.03 per emblem
Ymirjar Lord’s Greathelm @ 264: 39 Sta, 136 Armor 95 emblems +1 token +393 EH 4.12 per emblem

Pillars of Might: 93 Sta, 620 Armor crafted +965 EH 5.24 per emblem
Boots of Kingly Upheaval: 51 Sta, 115 Armor crafted +514 EH 4.46 per emblem

Tzobee
12-10-2009, 06:38 AM
In truth I do like the 2PC bonus just because... its more damage! But frankly threat does not seem to be a huge issue right now. We have a couple of affliction warlocks that can approach me on Saurfang at 8k TPS but they have the tools to bump back down when needed.

More EH seems like a better deal to me right now, then again I have only done the first four guys so far.

drae
12-10-2009, 06:58 AM
Interesting work Agg, I'll have to take a closer look when not at the office :D In the past I also have generally leaned towards off-tier pieces, if I agree with your conclusions that trend would continue.

Would the damage absorb from the 4pc off set the eh disparity maybe?

I agree that armor is the biggest reason I would go with this approach.

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 07:33 AM
Interesting work Agg, I'll have to take a closer look when not at the office :D In the past I also have generally leaned towards off-tier pieces, if I agree with your conclusions that trend would continue.

Would the damage absorb from the 4pc off set the eh disparity maybe?

I agree that armor is the biggest reason I would go with this approach.

Ya, I guess that's the overall question, is a 12kish absorb every minute worth 3k armor and 630HPs. And I'm not sure I know the answer. I'd have no problem going for both and seeing what happens, but b/c it's not easy as pie to get tons of frost emblems atm, 2 pc would be alright, small loss in stats if you go with shoulders, but going for 4 pc wouldn't even be good until you had all 4 pieces. You'd basically have 189 rotting emblems until you got to 190 with 2 tokens. That's a lot of time and a lot of other gear you could get. And, if you pick up gloves and belt for only 120 emblems instead of 155, you actually get better stats.

Akolon
12-10-2009, 07:46 AM
Don´t forget the possibility of getting T10 parts from the new VoA boss, once the new season starts. So if you like to rely on this, yo can basically "save" some badges für nonset pieces, and still aim for 4T10.

I know that it will take a while until the new season starts, but it won´t take less to collect all thoses emblems ;)

Kojiyama
12-10-2009, 07:04 PM
Well, here's some numbers for you...

Presuming all the rest of my gear is as it is now, with the hit values currently know for ICC and with Chill of the Throne, etc.

With all 5 off-set pieces, I have the following results:
Health: 51678
Guaranteed Reduction: 76.56%
Avoidance: 47.49% (+Block 64.61%)
Total Mitigation: 90.75%
Damage Taken: 3236.5 DPS
Total Threat/sec: 9009.3

With all 5 set pieces, I have:
Health: 51188
Guaranteed Reduction: 75.21%
Avoidance: 50.20% (+Block 67.60%)
Total Mitigation: 90.74%
Damage Taken: 3242.5 DPS
Total Threat/sec: 9271.2

...so, dunno. It's certainly not better, IMO. Health is lower, damage taken is higher. Set bonus offsets that to an extent, so it's arguably worthwhile but it's not exactly compelling considering you are taking 4 tokens from other classes where their set gear/bonus are hugely beneficial.

For optimal survival, one probably wants to get the T10 helm and chest, and offset on the other pieces. However, as the gain is minimal you are just as well with the badge chest. The helm is really the only compelling 264 piece.

The other issue is that while the 277 pieces look nice right now, that is most likely because we haven't seen the other options.

For instance, the datamined heroic offset gloves (The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=50716)) basically wipe the floor with the set piece. Also, the heroic offset chest from Rotface (The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=50681)) has nearly the same survival value (and a lot more health) compared to the T10 277 chest with the addition of 69 Hit rating as a bonus.

Muffin Man
12-10-2009, 08:57 PM
This is a bit of a relief to hear. More emblems for other things now lol.

Also even though you have a higher chance of seeing a token drop, you have much less competition for the offset pieces (even more so if you tank with a bear).

For the 10 man raider, I've noticed that some of the offset pieces are incredibly similar to the tier pieces.

Check out this comparison:
Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=50847;50808)

Or the chest:
Ymirjar Lord's Breastplate - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50850) versus Ghoul Commander's Cuirass - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50786/ghoul-commanders-cuirass/)

And this was just from a quick scan of the first wing.

As a 10 man guild I'm willing to bet that the heroic offset pieces will be easier to get than tokens as well, at least if ToGC/10 is any indication then they'll only drop off wing ending bosses?

So at this point the question about set bonus becomes very pertinent doesn't it? I'd have to think about it more, but I think I'll stick with offset pieces for the time being.

Raij
12-10-2009, 09:29 PM
The 4 piece bonus seems really good to me. 20% Damage absorbed every minute, while that may make healing a little more spikey, that looks pretty damned useful, especially on a fight where magic would make attacks unavoidable.

EDIT: As I did not do a hell of alot of PTR testing, is it all physical damage still?

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 09:40 PM
The 4 piece bonus seems really good to me. 20% Damage absorbed every minute, while that may make healing a little more spikey, that looks pretty damned useful, especially on a fight where magic would make attacks unavoidable.

EDIT: As I did not do a hell of alot of PTR testing, is it all physical damage still?

The thing is you have to account for not only the stat losses on T10 vs. the offset pieces, but also the loss of emblem gear you can get.

Currently you can get 41 badges the first week, and 35 per week after that until the next wing when the amount will increase to 47 per week.
This means that total emblem amounts (assuming you get every single emblem possible) are:
Week1: 41
Week2: 76
Week3: 111
Week4: 146
Week5: 193
Week6: 240
Week7: 287

I'll end there b/c we don't know when the other wings are coming out, but you get the drift. Gloves/Shoulders are 60 each, Helm/Legs are 95 each. That is 310 emblems. It will take you almost until february (depending on when the other wings are released) to get enough emblems for the T10, all the while until you get the 4 set you are picking up non optimal gear and have no badges to spend on the other really amazing frost emblem pieces like the cloak (50 embles) the chest (95 emblems) and the belt (60 emblems). You're losing stats hand over fist by going for T10 imo.

The more and more I think about it I'm going to pick up belt, chest, cloak in that order before I even think about picking up any teir pieces.

Raij
12-10-2009, 09:44 PM
Difference being for me is we are a hardmode 10 man progression guild, so I am not sure whether getting the tier10 will benefit me more than the offset pieces that drop, or if I should just go for the badge items first (Trinket, offsets that don't drop from 10 man etc).

Any suggestions on an order? Item drops are sketchy at best still =\

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 09:48 PM
/agree Raij, if you don't have access to the tokens (which idk how that works in 10 man or if you can even get them in 10 man until hardmodes/arthas) then the T10 is even WORSE like... bad...

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 09:53 PM
Thinking about it more, how much do you really need the bloodrage cooldown. If there's a fight that it's going to be awesome for then by all means I'll get it towards the end, but lets say that in full 264 gear you have probably close to 60k health buffed... maybe... (probably not that high though). If you have 60k health then you can absorb 12k damage every minute. Now while that's nice, that's just 1 heal. Are we going to be using so many cooldowns that enraged regen, shield wall, last stand, shield block, and our trinkets are all going to be down and we really need that 12k absorb? If we pop 258 Jug's vit and last stand lets say we get to 90k HPs. That's an 18k absorb... but we're sitting at 90k HPs! Is something really going to hit us for 108k damage?

The more I'm mulling over this the more I feel like the 4 set is nice, but not a necessity.

I'm more than willing to hear out counter arguments for this. Spiritus, you're the resident strat guy in these parts, do you know if there's a fight where this will be exceptionally useful above all other things based on fight mechanics?

Raij
12-10-2009, 09:58 PM
Yah, 10 man guilds kind of get boned in the department of getting tokens (we won't get them until hardmodes). Thats how it worked in ToC at any rate, and the way the new gear works, you need to buy the stuff with badges first anyways as you use the first tier to buy the next etc etc. So, yeh, probably gonna get the trinket first and go from there I suppose.

Bihn
12-10-2009, 09:59 PM
Currently you can get 41 badges the first week, and 35 per week after that until the next wing when the amount will increase to 47 per week.
This means that total emblem amounts (assuming you get every single emblem possible) are:
Week1: 41
Week2: 76
Week3: 111
Week4: 146


Sorry to be off-topic, but: The next wing is being released on January 5th. 3 more bosses, so 12 more badges a week at that point.

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 10:02 PM
Sorry to be off-topic, but: The next wing is being released on January 5th. 3 more bosses, so 12 more badges a week at that point. Yes, which is 35+12=47, obtainable starting week 5, which is what I said.

Bodasafa
12-10-2009, 11:03 PM
For me I looked at it like this, I have a 226 trinket, a 232 weapon, and a 232 shield. The trinket would be my biggest upgrade so thats settled, get the key with my first 60.

Ill grab offset pieces for the time being, cause you can't even attempt heroic anything till you kill the Lich King on normal (right?). By then ill re-evaluate the tier and figure out what direction I want to go. But historically I have found 2pc to be as far as I need to go with tier, off set items just seem to be to good to pass. Been the same since kara IMO.

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 11:27 PM
idk, T6 and T8 were both really good sets to have the 4 pc (although it seems like T4-7 all the helms sucked). 20% reduced magic damage was pretty nice on several fights such as Steelbreaker, Hodir, sort of thorim, mimiron, kind of algalon (but to a much lesser extent), was decent on XT, Ignis, and Razorscale too, but not necessarily necessary.

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 04:11 AM
Unless there is some specific mechanic of a fight with one "uber big hit" every minute, I don't feel like it's a super-duper good set bonus realistically.

The problem is that it's a one-off. It will be almost certainly absorbed in one hit in almost every case. For normal use it's akin to saying "I dodge one attack every minute" (maybe!) which isn't super-great.

I will try modeling the average benefit of this in Rawr this evening (used to its maximum every 60 seconds) just to see where it comes out as specifically. However, it's just going to end up being 10k health every 60s, which is 166 Damage/sec reduction.

So, in the above case if you used it every cooldown the T10 set would go from 3242.5 DTPS to 3076.5 DTPS vs. 3236.5 DTPS of the off-set stuff. However, you would still be getting hit with higher burst damage the rest of the time with ~1.5% less guaranteed reduction.

The other problem is that if you 'save' the cooldown for if you drop low on health, the DTPS reduction will go down quite a bit. (I also feel that it causes problems where you may not use Bloodrage when you need the rage anymore due to starvation because you are "saving" the cooldown for mitigation purposes... that could be awkward.)

It's a tough one to factor, honestly. I still think the off-set pieces are better initially due to their lower cost and increased damage reduction and EH bias prior to putting together the 4-set.

The way I look at it is by the time I have all my off-set pieces and helm sorted out, tokens will start becoming a bit more obtainable without me feeling like I'm needlessly stealing them from other classes--then I will look at putting together the 4-set bonus for situations where it would be good.

I do wish the T10 set was more compelling so it didn't rely so heavily on the set bonus to even be competitive.

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 04:49 AM
Well said Kojiyama. I look forward to your calculations. This was the kind of response and discussion I was really hoping for.

Just 1 question, currently you say that the offset pieces give 3236.5 DTPS and the set without the cooldown is 3242.5 DTPS? It's only a 6 DTPS difference?

Torebore
12-11-2009, 05:07 AM
Personally, I will most likely be going for the 4 piece bonus, with the emblem chest being the offset piece until heroic modes. The 4pc bonus is really great imo, I know the stats may be better on the offset pieces, but keep in mind, having the 4 pc gives you CONTROL. It's another nice CD that I can use when I need it. Sure more armor, more avoidance, whatever, is great, but a CD that I can use to help my raid last a couple extra seconds when we are 2 or 3% on _______ will help I'm sure.
Also worth adding is that you could pop the key trinket at the same time and add another 3k to that shield.

I don't buy into the 2 pc argument for this tier of gear. The 2 pc is nice, but not at all nessecary, it's just more threat, which is not a problem if you are rotating properly. I would say either go for the 4 pc, or just go all off set and go for the bonus armor.

With that said, right now, my plan is to go for the skeleton key trinket first, then the emblem chest. We don't know what all the gear is yet, so I'm sure my mind will change.
Don't forget that we need 26 expertise, and there are only 3 items with expertise, and you will need them all to get to that 26, unless you want to gem or enchant for expertise.

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 05:23 AM
Well said Kojiyama. I look forward to your calculations. This was the kind of response and discussion I was really hoping for.

Just 1 question, currently you say that the offset pieces give 3236.5 DTPS and the set without the cooldown is 3242.5 DTPS? It's only a 6 DTPS difference?

Sorry, probably wasn't clear.

Offset: 3236.5 DTPS
T10: 3242.5 DTPS
T10+Bloodrage: 3076.5 DTPS

However, the other thing I'd note is that since the value is absorb and because it scales with health it will be interesting to see where it ends up.

For instance, for farming old content it scales quite well with new gear--not only does it scale with your HP, but it scales with avoidance since obviously avoided hits will not consume the absorb. In relative terms, as your DTPS decreases the power of the set bonus increases.

However, since the damage scaling of the heroic versions (or later bosses) is not well-known yet, it could be that the incoming melee DTPS scales up as such that the armor of the offset pieces can outweigh the absorb.

It's really hard to say without knowing the actual nature of the harder fights yet. I'll try to run some more comprehensive numbers later tonight.

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 05:25 AM
No, you were clear, I was just surprised that the damage taken per second between the T10 without using blood rage and the offset was only 6 DTPS. I figured 3k armor would change it a bit more than that.

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 05:29 AM
No, you were clear, I was just surprised that the damage taken per second between the T10 without using blood rage and the offset was only 6 DTPS. I figured 3k armor would change it a bit more than that.

Well, the full T10 set has a bit more avoidance.

Personally, though, the thing is that you have more health with the offset piece and you take less damage from each swing. Although I may disagree with stacking Stamina at the expense of avoidance in many cases, if you have two sets which have nearly identical DTPS I would typically favor the one with more consistantly low top-end damage and Stamina, since that is just going to be the lowest chance of dying.

The burst time factor of the off-set set is a fair bit better than the full T10 set due to this fact.

Torebore
12-11-2009, 05:32 AM
Really quick, just on my whole point of having control:

This is all assuming that there will be less spiky damage in Icecrown. If the damage is going to be similar to ToGC (the beasts or anub), then I would say EH would be better, and therefore having a flat reduction to all hits might be the way to go. However from what I have seen so far, the damage really has been more regulated. There have not been any huge, "I was at full now I'm dead, wtf!" type of moments. Right now, I feel that an additional survival cooldown is just more beneficial.

Already I can see examples where I could use it. I missed my interrupt in the rotation on Deathwhisper? Pop it. Disarm is on cooldown, and Saurfang is getting kinda big? Pop it. Tank healer died when the boss was at 3%? Pop it.

Will it suck to not have the most bad ass gear score for a few months? For some yes. Will shamans and hunters curse us for passing on plate and taking their tokens? Maybe. I think getting the tier pieces at this point needs to be viewed as an investment. Right now, you may not see the changes that the non set will give you. But once you get the tokens, and hit that bonus, I think the extra cool down could really help. Especially when we get down the line and start doing some hardmodes.

I know doing the math on this stuff is important, and I do appreciate it. Don't bank on the math too much though. As long as the healers can keep you up without having to spam big heals on you, I feel that a defensive cooldown that you are in control of is much more valuable.

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 05:47 AM
I have to say that your conclusion seems a bit backwards to me, actually.

If damage is more regulated, there is less need for the 'omgwtf pop cooldowns or get one-shot' moments. In that case, smoothing out and regulating the damage to make it easily healable seems like the better course of action.

Good example, Marrowgar's Saber Lash. A cooldown isn't going to help you in most cases. The only time when it would matter is if your healers really really fell asleep/stopped healing you. You need consistant healing, so it seems best to try to minimize how much consistant healing you need by having high amounts of armor.

Cooldowns were so important because of the burst. On Heroic Beasts you can eat 50-55k damage in one second without cooldowns. With those cases mostly removed, there is less of a need for them.

Math is important because the game operates based on math. Averages aren't always right, of course, but much of this is being framed by having tanked for a long time as well. I don't like relying on cooldowns too much because when they aren't up for whatever reason, you die.

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 06:08 AM
A better analysis using full gear sets. I put together a total "optimal survival" (ish) set using early (first 2 wings max) known 25-N, 10-N, crafted, and badge items--as well as TotC items barring Anub-25H.

I subbed out the 5 slots based on what was discussed previously.

T10 264 Set
Health: 52718
Guaranteed Reduction: 76.80%
Avoidance: 50.41% (+Block 68.01%)
Total Mitigation: 91.44%
Attacker Speed: 2.50s
Damage Taken: 2999.5 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 16248
Total Threat/sec: 9146.2
Burst Time: 26.12

Full Offset
Health: 53278
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.98%
Avoidance: 47.71% (+Block 65.63%)
Total Mitigation: 91.44%
Damage Taken: 2998.9 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15420
Total Threat/sec: 8889.0
Burst Time: 26.53

T10 Helm/Shoulders + Offset Chest/Gloves/Legs
Health: 53008
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.98%
Avoidance: 48.11% (+Block 65.71%)
Total Mitigation: 91.50%
Damage Taken: 2975.6 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15424
Total Threat/sec: 9087.0
Burst Time: 26.79

T10 Helm/Chest + Offset Gloves/Shoulders/Legs
Health: 53138
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.52%
Avoidance: 49.43% (+Block 66.79%)
Total Mitigation: 91.55%
Damage Taken: 2959.1 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15746
Total Threat/sec: 8746.6
Burst Time: 27.57

...so, you can draw your own conclusions, really. Helm is the strongest piece compared to known options, so I'd always get that first. Additionally, until you are in a position to get the 4 264 tokens (which will probably take some time, realistically), the other off-set pieces (Waist, Gloves, Cloak) simply are a much better use of badges than the 3rd and 4th T10 pieces, regardless of your plan. Unless you are going to somehow prio tokens to Warriors (which I wouldn't recommend in this case) it will be a while before this is an issue at all.

To illustrate this, let's consider a case where you bought the Helm, Shoulders, Chest and Gloves and used the Pillars of Might (because the Legs can be crafted, they wouldn't cost badges, in theory!) yet you only had 1 25-man token.

264 Helm + 251 Chest/Gloves/Shoulders + Pillars of Might
Health: 51948
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.14%
Avoidance: 48.96% (+Block 66.20%)
Total Mitigation: 91.29%
Damage Taken: 3050.1 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 16008
Total Threat/sec: 8753.4
Burst Time: 23.91

...as you can see, this set is not very great. You will be taking 600 more damage per swing, have 1.4k less health, have 10-15% worse burst time survival, and poor TPS compared to a full offset or a T10 264 Helm + Offset gear approach. This also requires spending 60 additional badges to get the shoulders instead of a 'free' off-set drop, which means you would also have to initially skip the Cloak or Waist, which are considerable upgrades over other available slots.

To me, this is a poor approach for progression raiding.

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 06:19 AM
Can you redo the last calculation except with T10 Shoulder/Helm and badge chest?

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 06:21 AM
Can you redo the last calculation except with T10 Shoulder/Helm and badge chest?

Added some additional stuff, and notes about progression/251 items.

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 06:23 AM
Really quick, just on my whole point of having control:

This is all assuming that there will be less spiky damage in Icecrown. If the damage is going to be similar to ToGC (the beasts or anub), then I would say EH would be better, and therefore having a flat reduction to all hits might be the way to go. However from what I have seen so far, the damage really has been more regulated. There have not been any huge, "I was at full now I'm dead, wtf!" type of moments. Right now, I feel that an additional survival cooldown is just more beneficial.

Already I can see examples where I could use it. I missed my interrupt in the rotation on Deathwhisper? Pop it. Disarm is on cooldown, and Saurfang is getting kinda big? Pop it. Tank healer died when the boss was at 3%? Pop it.

Will it suck to not have the most bad ass gear score for a few months? For some yes. Will shamans and hunters curse us for passing on plate and taking their tokens? Maybe. I think getting the tier pieces at this point needs to be viewed as an investment. Right now, you may not see the changes that the non set will give you. But once you get the tokens, and hit that bonus, I think the extra cool down could really help. Especially when we get down the line and start doing some hardmodes.

I know doing the math on this stuff is important, and I do appreciate it. Don't bank on the math too much though. As long as the healers can keep you up without having to spam big heals on you, I feel that a defensive cooldown that you are in control of is much more valuable.

The problem here is I'm not thinking about current content. As is already proven current content is pretty easy for well geared people. What I'm worried about is having the best edge per week that I go into progression content, and the best set I can get when we start hardmodes.

Furthermore, I agree with Kajiyama again, that if damage is consistent you want more armor, and the avoidance differences are negligible at the moment. So more health + more armor = win in my book. Especially if it minimizes the need to even use an extra cooldown.

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 06:26 AM
Added some additional stuff, and notes about progression/251 items.

T10 Helm/Shoulders + Offset Chest/Gloves/Legs
Health: 53008
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.98%
Avoidance: 48.11% (+Block 65.71%)
Total Mitigation: 91.50%
Damage Taken: 2975.6 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15424
Total Threat/sec: 9087.0
Burst Time: 26.79




Imo this looks like the best situation overall to me. Only 4 more DT per Normal Hit, not that much more DTPS than the ideal DTPS set, slightly more mitigation than all offspec, slightly less health but generally good overall, tied for the highest overall reduction, and you get your nasty threat abilities.

Edit: imo this means get what drops you can, get the offset frost gear first, then go pick up your 2PC T10 if it is needed.

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 06:30 AM
I feel like it would be less of an issue if there were actually 4 pieces that were good. Right now, the Gloves and Legs are both very bad pieces. The shoulders have no advantage over the off-set pieces.

The chest and helm, especially when upgrades, are pretty nice even without the bonus armor on the chest.

This is fairly similar to the TotC situation where the Gloves and Shoulders were the only clearly good pieces until the rare case of getting Anub-25H tokens. The helm offered no real advantage to the Helm of Wrath (or was worse) while the Legs and Chest were far inferior to offset pieces.

For a 4-set to be worthwhile, at least 2-3 of the pieces need to be exceptionally strong. Right now, there is only a single piece which could fit that criteria--the Helm. The craptitude of the gloves and legs cause serious issues with gearing for the 4-set bonus. The fact that the set pieces have almost universally 1 less gem slot than offset pieces doesn't make things any easier.

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 06:31 AM
I personally think that the chest is pretty god awful too. The helm isn't even really that much better, it's just comparable.

delix
12-11-2009, 06:35 AM
What do you mean with Offset-Legs?
Legguards of Lost Hope or the crafted ones?

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 06:36 AM
What do you mean with Offset-Legs?
Legguards of Lost Hope or the crafted ones?

I list both in the original post, but in these more recent ones we are talking about "Pillars of Might" the crafted ones.

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 06:41 AM
I list both in the original post, but in these more recent ones we are talking about "Pillars of Might" the crafted ones.

Yeah, I used Pillar of Might in all the calculations for offset. However, the other options are also pretty good and slighty better better (especially considering they are 'free' for badge competition purposes) than the T10 Legs as well. :P

(It's also likely to be one of the first 277 items you can get, as it drops from Marrowgar--provided the heroic scaling is fairly similar to the difficulty in normal.)

Aggathon
12-11-2009, 06:43 AM
Kojiyama do you care if I add your post to my OP (and credit you obviously)

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 07:42 AM
Kojiyama do you care if I add your post to my OP (and credit you obviously)

Nope, don't mind at all. Feel free. :)

With normal grain of salt caveat that inputs will vary based on fights/parameters/damage, of course!

mistersix
12-11-2009, 01:45 PM
What other gear is being used in the rawr theorycrafting to arrive at these numbers?

Kojiyama
12-11-2009, 05:49 PM
What other gear is being used in the rawr theorycrafting to arrive at these numbers?

Don't have the save on this computer, but going from my memory it was a pretty solid selection of the other generally available survival items from the first half of the instance + TotC. Badge cloak and belt, crafted boots, ICC-25 armor neck, ICC-10 armor bracers, ICC-10 trinket+Glyph of Indom, ICC-25 trash gun, Anub-10H weapon, Twins-10H ring+ICC-25 ring, and TotC-25H shield. Could be remembering 1-2 things wrong though, but you get the idea.

There aren't actually that many tanking items available, so there aren't a ton of good options in each slot other than the primary set slots.

mistersix
12-12-2009, 01:37 AM
Thanks!

Torebore
12-12-2009, 04:10 AM
After sleeping on this and thinking about it some more, I realize I was getting a little entrenched in my argument. Actually you guys made some good points. I guess the bottom line is we will need to see what else drops in IC and what the encounters will be like near the end. Peace

mistersix
12-12-2009, 01:02 PM
MMO champ has about 95% of the loot tables up now.

Mindslayer
12-13-2009, 01:45 AM
I figure I'll throw my 2 cents in here.

As I main tank for my guild, I've planned a bit head.

Assuming hardmodes will still take a while to get here, I'm getting the T10 Head+Shoulders for the set bonus and buy the offset gloves and chest. I'm farming Frost badges on 3 alts so I shouldn't have a problem crafting the pants.

But I do agree that the 4 set might prove essencial in upcoming encounters. With the extra badges from running ICC10 and 25, I plan on buying the 4 set and use it when the hardmodes arrive. The 4 set scaling is too powerfull to be left out.

In the meantime, I'll use the offset pieces and try to achieve a good balance of armor, stamina and threat. When the time comes for hardmodes, I'll have the 4 set T10 for them.

The current normal encounters don't need an extra cooldown.

swelt
12-14-2009, 04:27 AM
The concern I still have with this is the encounters and badge incomes for expensive pieces of gear.

4pc Tier 8 wasn't great for warriors because it made their average DTPS lower than the equivalent offset pieces. It was great for warriors because it let them use shield block as an additional cooldown, enabling them to tank bosses like mimiron or IC hard much more easily.

As far as I know, we haven't even seen the Lich King fight in normal yet, nor have we seen hard modes for the key bosses (Putriside/Lanathel/Sindragosa and ofc Lich King hard). Given that they have put a fairly comparable survivability cooldown on every classes tank set, isn't it almost inevitable that they've factored this into the encounter design?


So maybe we need to consider badge incomes, and how long it will take to gather the emblems of frost to get all this stuff.
Per week:
5 - Weekly Raid Quest
14 - Daily Random Dungeons (assuming you manage this every day)
8 - 10 man, 4 bosses. Goes up to 7, 9 and then 12 bosses.
8 - 25 man, 4 bosses.

There's also an initial 6 from the 5 man introduction quest line.

Attached is a very simple spreadsheet that shows that income over a 16 week period, assuming that a) they open the 2nd and 3rd gates after 3 weeks (which might be conservative) and that you farm both 10 and 25 man instances, do all your dailies and weeklies. It also assumes only 2 badges for all bosses (possible some could drop more?) and that you kill all bosses the week they are available (which given the limited attempts might not be a fair assumption). So use whatever pinch of salt you like with the numbers, I'd say that the net result is probably high sided for most average people - chances are you'll miss a few dailies or the odd raid in this period - but that gates might open a bit quicker which would offset that.

Summary Dates (see file for more detail):
Week 4 146 badges total
Week 8 342
Week 12 586
Week 16 854

Tier loot costs:
Head / Chest / Legs = 95 each
Shoulders / Gloves = 60 each

Non-tier costs:
Chest = 95
Gloves / Belt / Trinket = 60
Cloak = 50
Primordial Saronie = 23

The cheapest 4pc would be 310 badges. You are into week 8 before you can afford that. That's end of January and not very long before the frost gate opens. Once that gate is open, we'll start getting real info on the Arthas fight - and some time after that, info about the hard modes. If at week 10, you have spent your 400 odd badges entirely on non-tier loot, it would take you a full month to farm the badges for the 4 pc bonus (ignoring any tokens needed for upgrades).

No conclusions at this point, although the idea of hedging bets for 2 pieces (shoulders + helm), which reduces the risk of being stuck needing a set bonus and not having it, looks quite attractive.

Kojiyama
12-14-2009, 05:07 AM
Yeah, considering by week 8 you can afford Belt + Gloves + Cloak + Helm + Shoulders (325 badges out of 342), that seems like an OK approach to me really.

Also, this assumes that the badge gain is constant. I could see the potential for the end-wing bosses potentially dropping 3 instead of 2 badges, but I guess we'll see.

(On a side note: my main complaint at the moment is how reliant badge income is on non-raiding activities, and even 10-man. I mean... the fact that 10-man gives the same badges as 25-man is broken, IMO... and the fact that, even now, you get more from daily + weekly quests than actual raiding is a bit fail.)

swelt
12-14-2009, 05:39 AM
Agree. I think it sucks that you are effectively forced to farm both 10 and 25 man to support that badge income - doesn't that go completely against what they've said in the past? The income from raids vs daily random is also pretty weak. 3 or even 4 badges per 25 man boss would seem entirely reasonable to me.

One other thing to factor: primordial saronite and Shadowmourne. In previous tiers, the orbs have been used for craftables. Now there are horny dps (and dk tanks) out there who want lots of the stuff. That will make crafting things like the plate legs a tricky topic for guilds. Also means that they'd appreciate 'spare badges' being converted to saronite.

Xianth
12-14-2009, 06:56 AM
As much as i like the set bonuses, the reality is that as a 10 man raider i'm not going to see any of the tier tokens for a fair while, and to get them I will already need good gear anyway. This means i'm unlikely to "save" for the tier pieces but ensure i have a 1-item badge buffer when the time comes to kill the badge bosses (10m HMs).

Of course, the decision of my first item is made easier by having a 219 cloak and the badge cloak being awesome. I also got the legs from saurfang on our first clear which means i've replaced my only fairly gimped tier slot, so there's no need to rush for the tier legs straight away.

Torebore
12-14-2009, 11:18 PM
I know that right now, the system for getting badges seems a little weird, but just keep in mind that as time goes on, and people start full clearing 10 and 25 IC, the majority of badges will come from the raid zone. We just started IC, and we are going to be doing IC for a quite a while.
Emblems of frost will be precious for the first 2 months or so, and then after that, most of us will be rolling around in them, selling them off as primordial saronite. Don't forget that if you plan on getting the tier pieces, you are only paying once.
There are a lot of great things to get with the emblems right now, but we will have so much time to get it all, not worth stressing about it imo.

Aggathon
12-15-2009, 05:53 AM
I know that right now, the system for getting badges seems a little weird, but just keep in mind that as time goes on, and people start full clearing 10 and 25 IC, the majority of badges will come from the raid zone. We just started IC, and we are going to be doing IC for a quite a while.
Emblems of frost will be precious for the first 2 months or so, and then after that, most of us will be rolling around in them, selling them off as primordial saronite. Don't forget that if you plan on getting the tier pieces, you are only paying once.
There are a lot of great things to get with the emblems right now, but we will have so much time to get it all, not worth stressing about it imo.

The stress comes from wanting to optimize our gear so we have the best possible as each wave hits. I want to make sure my gear is baller for when heroic modes come out.

Bodasafa
12-15-2009, 10:52 AM
So basically you lose 77 defense, 3 dodge, and some threat for a gain of over 3,000 armor and 54 stam and also gain 132 parry.



Just curious but was this conclusion from your original post done with Leggaurds of Lost Hope or Pillars of Might?

Regardless you lose 3 dodge which is nothing and gain 132 parry = More Avoidance.

More Stamina (Magic Fights) and More Armor (Physical Fights) = More overall survivability.

By these numbers the off pieces win hands down over the tier in every situation, wtf batman? So your only real gain with the Tier is the set bonus's. Which the 2 piece though nice, more threat (which we don't really need) is hardly a reason to drop overall survivability and avoidance. The 4 pc needs could be useful in later fights, but remember blizzard is not going to design encounters (hard or normal) around having a set bonus.

mistersix
12-15-2009, 03:25 PM
Agree. I think it sucks that you are effectively forced to farm both 10 and 25 man to support that badge income - doesn't that go completely against what they've said in the past?

It sorta kinda does. That said, Blizzard has also been saying the whole time that they want to look into WHO's actually running 10mans and 25mans (i.e. how much double-dipping are the 25man raid guilds doing). I suspect they finally found their answer (virtually all 25mans are double-dipping and there aren't that many 10man only guilds out there) and lowered the emblem count on 25man to accommodate that behavior AND to slow progression in yet another way (which seems likely given all the gates, limited attempts, etc.).

Aggathon
12-15-2009, 04:38 PM
Just curious but was this conclusion from your original post done with Leggaurds of Lost Hope or Pillars of Might?

Regardless you lose 3 dodge which is nothing and gain 132 parry = More Avoidance.

More Stamina (Magic Fights) and More Armor (Physical Fights) = More overall survivability.

By these numbers the off pieces win hands down over the tier in every situation, wtf batman? So your only real gain with the Tier is the set bonus's. Which the 2 piece though nice, more threat (which we don't really need) is hardly a reason to drop overall survivability and avoidance. The 4 pc needs could be useful in later fights, but remember blizzard is not going to design encounters (hard or normal) around having a set bonus.

Pillars of might.

Also remember you lose 77 defense, so it's actually a little less avoidance to go with the offset, I think is what Kojiyama was coming out with.

Grymauch
12-15-2009, 05:03 PM
Don't have the save on this computer, but going from my memory it was a pretty solid selection of the other generally available survival items from the first half of the instance + TotC. Badge cloak and belt, crafted boots, ICC-25 armor neck, ICC-10 armor bracers, ICC-10 trinket+Glyph of Indom, ICC-25 trash gun, Anub-10H weapon, Twins-10H ring+ICC-25 ring, and TotC-25H shield. Could be remembering 1-2 things wrong though, but you get the idea.

Am I reading this wrong or are you saying that ICC-10 tnkt + Glyph of Indom is better than the ICC-10 trnkt + Corroded Skeleton Key?

Aggathon
12-15-2009, 05:11 PM
Am I reading this wrong or are you saying that ICC-10 tnkt + Glyph of Indom is better than the ICC-10 trnkt + Corroded Skeleton Key?

Well the Corroded Skeleton Key costs more badges, what we're doing here is a teir set analysis of watch frost emblem gear provides the best upgrades. I personally would probably use ICC10 + Jug's Vitality258.

As far as stat upgrades go, if you have glyph of indom + level trinkets, corroded skeleton key is actually not that big of an upgrade in comparison, however this is a suppositioned on your current gear levels. If say you had really bad luck with trinkets and you're still using like the black heart and glyph of indom, but you have all like 258 gear, then yes, corroded skeleton key would probably be an upgrade...

Come to think of it we may want to add that in our decision calculus. I just personally didn't since I have 2x Jug's Vit, Glyph of Indom and am trying for the ICC-10 trinket, so it never really crossed my mind.

Bodasafa
12-15-2009, 05:14 PM
Pillars of might.

Also remember you lose 77 defense, so it's actually a little less avoidance to go with the offset, I think is what Kojiyama was coming out with.

77 rating = 1.88% avoidance according to Calculator (http://www.tankingtips.com/tanking-formulas) (that's before diminishing returns) so that may not be a lot.

Unless you mean skill:eek: (which I doubt)

Grymauch
12-15-2009, 05:40 PM
Well the Corroded Skeleton Key costs more badges, what we're doing here is a teir set analysis of watch frost emblem gear provides the best upgrades. I personally would probably use ICC10 + Jug's Vitality258.

I totally understand what you're saying, I guess I was coming at it from the perspective of a 'hardcore' 10m raider with neither JuggVit trnkt. Seems like there have been several other 10m raiders posting so maybe there should be a separate 10m-only version of this thread or perhaps there could be a 10m portion added to this thread.

Aggathon
12-15-2009, 05:44 PM
I totally understand what you're saying, I guess I was coming at it from the perspective of a 'hardcore' 10m raider with neither JuggVit trnkt. Seems like there have been several other 10m raiders posting so maybe there should be a separate 10m-only version of this thread or perhaps there could be a 10m portion added to this thread.

Ya, this thread wasn't very 10 man focused to begin with, but seeing as how the tier gear and the badge gear cost the same number of emblems, but the frost gear gives you 264 ilevel gear and the tier base for 10 man is 251, I'd say that the badge gear hands down will give you the better options. Whether or not you get the trinket too or first or what order you get things in is entirely dependent upon your current gear levels.

Bowen
12-15-2009, 10:33 PM
Really great work guys, some interesting reading and some much needed planning out done on part of the tier set/offset items. Hi as well Jayde :)

Kojiyama
12-16-2009, 03:53 AM
Well the Corroded Skeleton Key costs more badges, what we're doing here is a teir set analysis of watch frost emblem gear provides the best upgrades. I personally would probably use ICC10 + Jug's Vitality258.

As far as stat upgrades go, if you have glyph of indom + level trinkets, corroded skeleton key is actually not that big of an upgrade in comparison, however this is a suppositioned on your current gear levels. If say you had really bad luck with trinkets and you're still using like the black heart and glyph of indom, but you have all like 258 gear, then yes, corroded skeleton key would probably be an upgrade...

Come to think of it we may want to add that in our decision calculus. I just personally didn't since I have 2x Jug's Vit, Glyph of Indom and am trying for the ICC-10 trinket, so it never really crossed my mind.

Well, it's not as if Glyph of Indom is hard to get now that Emblems of Triumph fall off trees and land in your lap for taking a few steps in Dalaran. ;)

Personally, I don't like the Skeleton Key at all. I think it's pretty overpriced for its value and given the many trinkets available I really wouldn't waste the Emblems on it personally. (I have the 258 Satrina's as well, but even if I didn't I'm not sure I would get the Skeleton Key.)

The fact is that, on average, even The Black Heart has roughly the same EH as the Skeleton Key. Even the 245 Satrina's is probably on a similar level as the Skeleton Key, not to mention that there are other Stamina trinkets in ICC such as Sindragosa's Fang with the same Stamina as the Skeleton Key. There is also the Corpse Tongue Coin, which is quite an interesting trinket as well. And if you don't need the raw EH, I find that Glyph of Indom is better for increasing your overall survivability.

Additionally, even if you do need raw EH, the upgrade from the 10-man T9 gloves to the Gauntlets of the Kraken, for instance, is almost double what you would get going from the Royal Seal of King Llane to the Skeleton Key.

Given the limited resource of Emblems of Frost, I would personally just suck it up with an older trinket rather than drop a ton of badges on something of questionable value.

Eravian
12-16-2009, 07:33 AM
Hmm... this has been good to look at. I was trying to figure out what to spend my badges on first, especially since December's not a great time for raiding for me, so I'm looking realistically at whatever I can get from dailies and maybe one or two bosses down. Good to know that saving for the tier pieces isn't terribly vital, especially since that extra armor on the offset pieces is pretty darn attractive!
I'm thinking I'll go with my initial gut feeling now and upgrade my cloak first, to finally replace that blasted Shadow of the Ghoul from Naxx... the badge cloak is exactly the same, but better in every way.
Thanks for looking into this, all!

Bodasafa
12-17-2009, 10:54 AM
After reviewing the Original post I must say I'm not impressed with the tier options at all.

Originally I though the badge "off set" options were being compared against the ilvl 251 tier. I was very sad to find out that its the ilvl 264. Therefore meaning that until you get to heroic 25 man tokens (a long way off) the badge/crafted/drop gear will be more powerful and worth the investment.

So putting the Tier aside, I started to do some comparisons of the 5 Badge items against the next viable ilvl 264 drop (25 Normal) to see its longevity.

Belt: Badge (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50991) v Festergut 25 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50036)

Now the drop is from Festergut-25 which is in the next gate. However I am confused as Wowhead and MMO show 2 different versions. One has and extra socket and one has more base stamina. Wowhead was linked above and in the comparison. Heres the MMO version Belt of Broken Bones - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50036/belt-of-broken-bones/). That difference aside you are basically trading armor for dodge.

Cloak: Badge (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50466) v Blood Princess 25 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50074)

This looks to be longer lasting considering how far in the next viable upgrade is.

Gloves:
Badge (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50978) v Blood Princess 25 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50075)

This is similar to the belt in that you are trading armor for dodge. But also a long way off considering how far in the boss it drops from is.

Chest:
Badge (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50968) v Rotface 25 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50024)

Your trading armor and expertise for dodge and hit. Plus this drop is in the next wing. There is also the tier option to consider.

Trinket:
Badge (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50356) v Sindragosa 25 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50361)

No need for a comparison here. Trinket is probably depending on what you already have. So those with at least 1 form of Satrina's the the badge version would be low on the list in my opinion.

Conclusions:

The cloak or gloves appear to be the longest lasting options at a low price (assuming you don't need the trinket). With the unconfirmed stats on the belt I have yet to form an opinion. The badge chest however looks to be a lot better than the Rotface-25 drop, but costs a bunch more badges up front.

Probably no closer to having any solid conclusions here, but I thought it would be interesting to post. I'm looking forward to Vene's take on this, I'm sure his head is jumping in different directions as mine was while writing this. :D

kpxneophyte
12-21-2009, 10:19 AM
However I am confused as Wowhead and MMO show 2 different versions. One has and extra socket and one has more base stamina. Wowhead was linked above and in the comparison. Heres the MMO version Belt of Broken Bones - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50036/belt-of-broken-bones/). That difference aside you are basically trading armor for dodge.



Actually, if you look closely at the MMO version (that is, at the picture they provide) it shows that the belt of broken bones actually only has a red socket. Seems like the MMO version is just copying the badge one in terms of str and stam.

Bodasafa
12-21-2009, 09:29 PM
Actually, if you look closely at the MMO version (that is, at the picture they provide) it shows that the belt of broken bones actually only has a red socket. Seems like the MMO version is just copying the badge one in terms of str and stam.

Humm if that be the case Id say the badge belt probably has a long life

Eravian
12-22-2009, 09:28 AM
I must say looking at those pieces again, that belt is an amazing piece... especially since I haven't gotten a ToC drop yet, and am still rocking the Shieldwarder's Girdle... upgrading to the belt is looking at a HUGE upgrade, considering that it has a huge armor boost, more base stamina, and two more sockets... guess I know what I'll be buying first.

Sylfraor
12-23-2009, 10:00 AM
In my humble opinion, it is not clear what will be the key to the upcoming bosses. The 4P bonus can be a good cooldown which will fit nicely during some of the fights or it may be just a nice looking button which as no real impact. Should I make a guess, I would say it is not a "should have" bonus and stick to the 2P and non-set gloves & chest.
In any case, I'm not eager to buy any pieces if not needed so I decided the wait & see strategy. I'll only buy the non-set which can't be argued and wait until I see clearly what to do for the set/non-set problem about the chest, gloves, and so do not pay double for a slot.

In a matter of fact, I bought the belt last evening, the only one I have no doubt.

Hamburglar
12-25-2009, 11:08 AM
The legs are very good simply because the ICC tank gear is nearly devoid of expertise.

mistersix
12-25-2009, 12:10 PM
Over at Vene's blog I ran the following numbers:

Assuming you’re upgrading from EH gemmed and chanted versions of ilevel 245 options in the following slots: belt (bloodied scars), cape (eredar), gloves (t9), chest (towering monstrosity) then the following is a list of items with the most EH bang for your emblem buck (using the calculator at tanking tips):

Verdigris Chain Belt: 51 Sta, 752 Armor 60 emblems +533 EH 8.88 per emblem
Sentinel’s Winter Cloak: 40 Sta, 571 Armor 50 emblems +414 EH 8.28
Gauntlets of the Kraken: 36 Sta, 763 Armor 60 emblems +377 EH 6.28 per emblem
Cataclysmic Chestguard: 45 Sta, 1344 Armor 95 emblems +486 EH 5.11 per emblem
Ymirjar Lord’s Pauldrons @ 264: 30 Sta, 126 Armor 60 emblems + 1 token +302 EH 5.03 per emblem
Ymirjar Lord’s Greathelm @ 264: 39 Sta, 136 Armor 95 emblems +1 token +393 EH 4.12 per emblem

Pillars of Might: 93 Sta, 620 Armor crafted +965 EH 5.24 per emblem
Boots of Kingly Upheaval: 51 Sta, 115 Armor crafted +514 EH 4.46 per emblem

Aggathon
12-25-2009, 03:29 PM
Thanks for those numbers mistersix! very helpful, I put them in the OP

Kojiyama
12-25-2009, 07:22 PM
Not totally sure how you got the Gloves so low/different from the belt.

The upgrade is virtually identical to the Belt in terms of EH, and they are the same badge cost. (In fact, it should be the Gloves with the ever so slightest EH edge due to the whopping 11 armor advantage!)

Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=47072:50978;50991:48452)

Did you compare to the 258 gloves or something?

Sirloinsteak
12-26-2009, 12:57 AM
Over at Vene's blog I ran the following numbers:

Assuming you’re upgrading from EH gemmed and chanted versions of ilevel 245 options in the following slots: belt (bloodied scars), cape (eredar), gloves (t9), chest (towering monstrosity) then the following is a list of items with the most EH bang for your emblem buck (using the calculator at tanking tips):

Verdigris Chain Belt: 51 Sta, 752 Armor 60 emblems +533 EH 8.88 per emblem
Sentinel’s Winter Cloak: 40 Sta, 571 Armor 50 emblems +414 EH 8.28
Gauntlets of the Kraken: 36 Sta, 763 Armor 60 emblems +377 EH 6.28 per emblem
Cataclysmic Chestguard: 45 Sta, 1344 Armor 95 emblems +486 EH 5.11 per emblem
Ymirjar Lord’s Pauldrons @ 264: 30 Sta, 126 Armor 60 emblems + 1 token +302 EH 5.03 per emblem
Ymirjar Lord’s Greathelm @ 264: 39 Sta, 136 Armor 95 emblems +1 token +393 EH 4.12 per emblem

Pillars of Might: 93 Sta, 620 Armor crafted +965 EH 5.24 per emblem
Boots of Kingly Upheaval: 51 Sta, 115 Armor crafted +514 EH 4.46 per emblem

ok that looks good i like those gear choises 1 thing worries me ... what of the major expertise hit we take from this (150 expertise hit roughly) ... is parry haste turned on or off in icc ... ??

the severe lack of expertise on these items worries me a fair bit especially if parry hasting is turned on in icc

Stengel
12-26-2009, 01:35 AM
I think it sucks somewhat that avoiding T10.264 is a no-brainer and since it really doesn't compare to anything else available at that level. The emblem stuff is just too good.

For T10.277 it's a bit different. The 264 +armor stuff is still better for EHP allthough worse for pure stamina, and an argument can be made that ICC has several bosses where lots of magic damage can fly around.

The T10 legs are also one of the very few items with expertise, and personally I want to reach expertise softcap at the very least. From there the 2 piece bonus is just another piece away and imho it's going to be nice to have for threat. Afterall the only item with +SBV is the shield.

From what we know the 4 piece set bonus *may* also be quite useful (Sindragosa is starting to oneshot tanks when she's on low health in one of the videos I've seen).

mistersix
12-26-2009, 01:48 AM
Not totally sure how you got the Gloves so low/different from the belt.

The upgrade is virtually identical to the Belt in terms of EH, and they are the same badge cost. (In fact, it should be the Gloves with the ever so slightest EH edge due to the whopping 11 armor advantage!)

Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=47072:50978;50991:48452)

Did you compare to the 258 gloves or something?

I don't think so. It may have something to do with my gemming and chanting assumptions. I don't think wowhead saved those profiles however. I'd be happy to run them through again without said assumptions or if you'd prefer equally happy to have you take a stab at checking the numbers across the board.

saxie
12-26-2009, 08:12 PM
Amazing post guys, saved me alot of time.
Probably wont hit the cloak first, as im using engineering and the armor chant makes up for it to some extent plus the 50 tries 10 man cloak isnt bad, will defo go for the belt as my first stop and overall offpieces over tier. Was a bit excited about the 4pcs bonus when i first saw it, but at a second glance it looks rubbish for the effort needed to get it.
Another item i was quite enthuziastic about was the trinket, sadly it is also way to expensive for what it delivers. My guild has never seen satrina's 258 drop since week 1, and i do not posses the 245 version either, am stuck using the old Heart of Iron :o but meh use effect isnt that bad, especially considering the hole of avoidance there is now.

Currently am sitting at a 44k hp and 28.8k armor unbuffed, and as i see things the damage is quite evened out. Makes me wonder what hard modes will really be like in terms of burst, considering the avoidance loss, am going to give glyph of indom a spin and see how it works out.

The thing that worries me the most, is the lack of expertise on items, seems like a deja vu of the hit issue in toc.

All in all from a 25 man guild pov tier will wait.

Again thanks for a great post fellas, helped alot in making up my mind and planning ahead.

defjam
12-28-2009, 11:42 AM
pardon if this was asked before but i skim read this post, but what's the proc rate on the 2 pc set bonues for Fury Warriors?

Aggathon
12-28-2009, 04:10 PM
pardon if this was asked before but i skim read this post, but what's the proc rate on the 2 pc set bonues for Fury Warriors?

Dunno, this was talking about prot, there's another post with almost the same name that someone else posted in the damage section, might ask there, I don't know jack about fury, lol.

Dwarfknight
12-29-2009, 09:34 AM
This thread has so much information, it has my head spinning in circles. It's really sad to see that the t10 4 peice may not be worth it with the badge quality items being better from all the theorycrafting you all have been putting together. With me I picked up the shoulders first not even thinking about the frost badge rewards. Couple questions arise in my head.
One: It seems with the Icc items which you have been comparing the badge items to, it seems it's a trade of between armor and dodge, so since The chill of the throne debuff brings our dodge down, is it a fair trade off?
Two: Since I have picked up the shoulders first, I was thinking about grabbing the gloves to grab my two peice until I read this thread which has me second guessing on picking them up. Not sure what peice to get now since imo, the two peice is way to good to pass down
Yes, it also seems blizzard said screw the expertise, let's hit them up with all the hit they could ever ask for. From what I have seen, the T10 legs have expertise on them, then you have the badge bought chest which has expertise on it. Just thought I could get a few answers and some friendly advice

Aggathon
12-29-2009, 11:36 AM
.
One: It seems with the Icc items which you have been comparing the badge items to, it seems it's a trade of between armor and dodge, so since The chill of the throne debuff brings our dodge down, is it a fair trade off?

The only thing chill of the throne does as far as mechanics is concerned is increase the amount of dodge we get per point of dodge rating, other than that priorities remain the same as they always have (for the most part, obviously that's fight dependent). Because of the way they designed icecrown, bosses hit less than they would have if they hadn't implemented CotT, but the number of hits connected is higher, therefore it is more consistent damage and less spikey. In my opinion this means that armor is favored even more.



Two: Since I have picked up the shoulders first, I was thinking about grabbing the gloves to grab my two peice until I read this thread which has me second guessing on picking them up. Not sure what peice to get now since imo, the two peice is way to good to pass down
Yes, it also seems blizzard said screw the expertise, let's hit them up with all the hit they could ever ask for. From what I have seen, the T10 legs have expertise on them, then you have the badge bought chest which has expertise on it. Just thought I could get a few answers and some friendly advice

I'm still a proponent that you should worry about survivability first, and EHP second. As long as you stay above 26 expertise, then the differential in +chance to hit and +chance to not be parried will leave you with roughly the same amount of threat. You might get parried hasted more but in ICC that's kind of negligible imo.

If you already have the T10 shoulders, then I would suggest going ahead and picking up the T10 HELM, and then getting the badge gloves(or whatever other badge items). The Helm will give you the very nice 2pc and allow you to make up for lost threat b/c of lower expertise with increased SS and Shockwave dmg. The legs might be acceptable too if you have no intention of getting Pillars of Might.

Reylazor
12-29-2009, 05:55 PM
T10 Helm/Shoulders + Offset Chest/Gloves/Legs
Health: 53008
Guaranteed Reduction: 77.98%
Avoidance: 48.11% (+Block 65.71%)
Total Mitigation: 91.50%
Damage Taken: 2975.6 DPS
Damage Taken per Normal Hit: 15424
Total Threat/sec: 9087.0
Burst Time: 26.79

To my understanding this would probably be the best way to go, with pillars of might im assuming
Considering I wouldnt go in expertise or hit deficit so for me this would probably be the more effective comp amirite.
Seing that the 1st piece I'd acquire would be the helm since im short on badges didnt start icc up until its 3rd week out

Dwarfknight
12-29-2009, 05:58 PM
The Helm will give you the very nice 2pc and allow you to make up for lost threat b/c of lower expertise with increased SS and Shockwave dmg. The legs might be acceptable too if you have no intention of getting Pillars of Might.Since there is no badge bought helm, that is probably why you are saying the best method would be to grab the helm. Reason for not grabbing the gloves would be because the badge bought are just straight up better if I am right.

For the legs. The Pillars of Might look really good. I am not sure either between them or the Legguards of Lost Hope. Sure we have large quantities of defense at the moment and seems like a good idea. But the T10 legs may be great as well due to the expertise. What do you think for the legs portion?

Aggathon
12-29-2009, 08:15 PM
I'd take pillars of might over the legguards of lost hope, but that also depends on your budget. I had a guildie kind enough to loan me the primordials for the pillars of might, so I already have them made with no deficit to my person frost badge budget (repaying him with an alt's badges). If you get Legguards of Lost Hope before then, then I'd probably push Pillars of Might to a tertiary goal.

The reason for the helm isn't necessarily that there's no badge helm, just that the T10 helm is the only piece that's really comparable to any alternatives. The Helm I talk about in the OP (I think drops off of Lady Deathwhisper 25, either that or marrowgar, I forget without going back and looking at it) is fairly similar to the T10 helm and costs nothing, but if you're going for 2pc T10, then the helm is the best piece to switch out probably.

Dwarfknight
12-29-2009, 08:38 PM
The reason for the helm isn't necessarily that there's no badge helm, just that the T10 helm is the only piece that's really comparable to any alternatives. The Helm I talk about in the OP (I think drops off of Lady Deathwhisper 25, either that or marrowgar, I forget without going back and looking at it) is fairly similar to the T10 helm and costs nothing, but if you're going for 2pc T10, then the helm is the best piece to switch out probably.

Yes, I have the helmet off of deathwhisper is the reason I asked. The badge bought gloves with the two sockets really seem to surpass the t10 gloves and the t10 legs may be a viable option over picking up the T10 helmet, but I will do some more research into it.

Kojiyama
12-29-2009, 09:00 PM
Even considering I would like to get the helm eventually, it would probably be my last piece chosen anyhow.

If you get your hands on the nearly identical offset pieces (shoulders and helm) you can simply get the off-set chest sooner and push them back toward your set-collection efforts afterward. :)

Personally, I almost have 120 badges (have been slacking on raids over the holidays, so haven't bothered to buy stuff yet) and will be picking up the Gloves + Belt this week.

Mindy
12-30-2009, 02:06 AM
How does threat generation look with the new sets? As a warrior, the total lack of block attributes will affect Shield Slam and Damage Shield. The 2-piece bonus is supposed to cover all of it?

feji
12-30-2009, 05:19 AM
The 2PC T10 bonus comes out to be about 500 BV. With no block value on any of the new Emblem of Frost/ICC10/ICC25 gear, the shield slam portion of the 2PC bonus is pretty lack luster since it wont be fully utilized to its potential (unless you wear lower tier gear). But at the same time, because there is no BV on the newer gear, the 2PC T10 bonus is a pretty good TPS bonus. Quite the paradox.

Block Value => Shield Slam Damage WITH 2PC T10
1540 BV => 2045

Block Value => Shield Slam Damage W/O 2PC T10
1680 BV => 1800
2045 BV => 2050

Kojiyama
12-30-2009, 06:58 AM
Due to the diminishing returns they put on Shield Slam damage, Block Value isn't all that great of a scaler anymore for TPS. It's "ok", but totally wasted with Shield Block active, since you either cap out or get into the heavy DR zone.

Eravian
12-30-2009, 07:46 AM
I could see an argument being made for the leg pieces, since they're the only pieces with Expertise on them and are decent leggings, the problem is that with the exception of the defense rating and expertise, the crafted ones are better in basically every way. I don't see the problem with this tier being so much that the tier pieces are bad, compared to some other tiers I think the itemization on this set is actually pretty good, I think the problem is that the off-pieces are so good that it makes it a no contest. The bonus armor alone makes it hard to pass them up.

Dwarfknight
12-30-2009, 09:49 AM
I ran some tests with my rawr last night. I put it the T10helm and T10shoulders and then added the pillers of might, the cat. chest, and the kraken gloves. That right there seems to be the best set up thus far. I never messed around with the 277 T10, but I don't see a big change to be honest. The numbers for this set is as follows:

T10 Helm-T10 Shoulders-Cataclysmic Chest- Gloves of The Kraken- Pillars of Might-Verdigris Chain Belt.
PS: I kept alot of my old peices which I have on now currently with this setup. Example: (258) dawnbreakers greaves-(258) Bracers of the shieldmaiden. So keep that in mind.

Health:56417
Armor: 34677
Defense: 575
Dodge: 29.75- With CotT- 9.75
Parry: 24.05
Block: 18.66
Miss:12.42
Block Value: 1843 with no cd's popped
Guaranteed Reduction: 74.55
Avoidance: 66.22(+84.88 Block)
Total Mitigation: 93.67
Damage Taken: 2531.2 DPS

My thoughts:
Now keep in mind as I said above that these numbers still have a lot of ToGC items and that these stats would probably be higher if I counted in new trinkets, cloak, neck, and boots. This will be the setup I will be going with. Sure it is going to be a pain to get all of these badges, but this seems like the best method. Now the only question is. Would it sitll be useful to pick up 4p for hardmode fights? I am pretty sure it may be a possibility regardless of the fact that badge bought is better. We will see in due time.

Kojiyama
12-30-2009, 10:55 AM
I could see an argument being made for the leg pieces, since they're the only pieces with Expertise on them and are decent leggings, the problem is that with the exception of the defense rating and expertise, the crafted ones are better in basically every way. I don't see the problem with this tier being so much that the tier pieces are bad, compared to some other tiers I think the itemization on this set is actually pretty good, I think the problem is that the off-pieces are so good that it makes it a no contest. The bonus armor alone makes it hard to pass them up.

The off-set Chest has Expertise on it, however, so that makes up for the difference if you are low. Honestly, I would put the Legs as the weakest piece overall. The loss of a socket plus huge amounts of Expertise make them pretty poor in terms of survival value when compared to the Pillars of Might.

10 Expertise on one single item is nice, but probably not needed at the end of the day, especially if you get the offset chest which also has 10 Expertise without actually comparing so poorly to other items in that slot survival-wise.

Eravian
12-30-2009, 11:50 AM
That was sort of my point, though, in that the Tier 10 set is actually pretty nice, but when you compare them to the off-set choice, it's really not very comparable at all. Almost the entire set is like that, with the exception of the helm and shoulders, and I suspect that's largely because those offsets are not bought with Emblems. Even the Heroic ICC-25 loot is going to have a hard time beating any of those offset pieces because they're so nice. There's the 4-piece bonus, of course, but for most cases that's just not going to add up to the overall survivability loss for getting the tier pieces.

Kazeyonoma
12-30-2009, 12:11 PM
I'm still figuring out if i want to go past 2 pc bonus and go full on 4 pc cuz the bonus does seem potentially amazing. 1 min cd of 15k bubble. I dunno.

feji
12-30-2009, 12:21 PM
Due to the diminishing returns they put on Shield Slam damage, Block Value isn't all that great of a scaler anymore for TPS. It's "ok", but totally wasted with Shield Block active, since you either cap out or get into the heavy DR zone.

Shield Block doesn't cap you out faster, and the bonus block value from SB isn't exactly wasted at all.
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1262/sbbv.jpg

Eravian
12-30-2009, 12:22 PM
Ooh, a graph!

Kojiyama
12-30-2009, 07:47 PM
Honestly not sure how you're calculating that.

Due to the hardcap on Shield Slam, you should be hardcapped at roughly 1316 base Block Value with Shield Block + Glyph of Blocking + Shield Mastery as it reaches the 34.5 * 80 contribution hardcap at 3160 Block Value.

As 1316 Block Value would be very easy to reach fully raid-buffed and stacking a bit of Block Value items, that makes any Block Value gains beyond that only marginally useful when Shield Block is up.

Even more than than that, any Block Value beyond 2400 has very diminished value in terms of TPS increases. (2400 -> 3160 Block Value only adds 361 damage to your Shield Slam.)

Block Value is an OK stat, but it is generally not the greatest thing in the universe to stack at this point. Even without using Shield Block, point-for-point Strength is almost the same value as Block Value in terms of DPS/TPS increases on a single target, and a bit higher multi-target due to Shockwave/Thunderclap/Cleave scaling.

Gorbachop
12-30-2009, 08:10 PM
So what to do? I was just about to buy the T10 helm and then I got the Broken Ram Skull Helm from Deathwhisper 25. Then I figured I would just get the badge gloves and belt with the 123 emblems I have and I got a Prot token. I also happen to have a 258 T9 token that I haven't used.

I could replace the T9 shoulders/gloves I have with the T10 and use the token on one of them for the 2pc but I'm already at 261 hit without the 61 hit from the gloves and I'd rather use the badge gloves.

I should be happy that there are so many options and sources of gear but it's kind of frustrating to figure out what to spend my badges on.

Dwarfknight
12-30-2009, 08:43 PM
Since I already have my 264 shoulders, I will have to wait till next week to get a hold of the final badges I need for my 264 helmet-Have an extra token in the bank due to that is all been dropping off saurfang is warrior tokens. Probably then go for the badge belt, gloves and chest in that order. Then use my alts badges to get the saronite to craft the pillars of might. Then go around and pick up 4p t10 to test it out.

krc
12-30-2009, 08:45 PM
While you are grabbing all of the offset pieces Dwarf, I would grab the cloak before the gloves and chest because of the EH per emblem being generally better for the majority of gear setups.

Kojiyama
12-30-2009, 09:00 PM
So what to do? I was just about to buy the T10 helm and then I got the Broken Ram Skull Helm from Deathwhisper 25. Then I figured I would just get the badge gloves and belt with the 123 emblems I have and I got a Prot token. I also happen to have a 258 T9 token that I haven't used.

I could replace the T9 shoulders/gloves I have with the T10 and use the token on one of them for the 2pc but I'm already at 261 hit without the 61 hit from the gloves and I'd rather use the badge gloves.

I should be happy that there are so many options and sources of gear but it's kind of frustrating to figure out what to spend my badges on.

I just was in roughly the same boat as you given that I got the Ram Skull tonight and had 120odd badges that I had built up. Ended up getting offset Gloves+Waist and will probably try to get the Cloak or Shoulders next--haven't decided 100% on that, but the Gloves+Waist were the largest upgrades for me and I'm quite happy with the extra ~2k armor I gained tonight. :)

feji
12-30-2009, 10:33 PM
Honestly not sure how you're calculating that.

Due to the hardcap on Shield Slam, you should be hardcapped at roughly 1316 base Block Value with Shield Block + Glyph of Blocking + Shield Mastery as it reaches the 34.5 * 80 contribution hardcap at 3160 Block Value.

As 1316 Block Value would be very easy to reach fully raid-buffed and stacking a bit of Block Value items, that makes any Block Value gains beyond that only marginally useful when Shield Block is up.

Even more than than that, any Block Value beyond 2400 has very diminished value in terms of TPS increases. (2400 -> 3160 Block Value only adds 361 damage to your Shield Slam.)

Block Value is an OK stat, but it is generally not the greatest thing in the universe to stack at this point. Even without using Shield Block, point-for-point Strength is almost the same value as Block Value in terms of DPS/TPS increases on a single target, and a bit higher multi-target due to Shockwave/Thunderclap/Cleave scaling.

Basically, I auto-attacked a target dummy and hit shield slam for the numbers. The Block Value was taken directly off the character sheet in-game, and I made sure I had no buffs/procs up. I understand BV's diminishing return's starts at charlevel*30 = 2400. My points from my first observations are that :

1) the shield slam portion of the 2PC T10 bonus isn't that great because all the new 251+ level gear has no block value on it, thus you'd be needing to use older tier gear to reach ~2400 BV to fully utilize the shield slam portion of the T10 bonus.
2) because there is no BV on the newer gear, the 2PC T10 is one of the few ways to up your SS damage for TPS, without wearing older tier gear (and thus the paradox).

1300 BV was me using no BV gear at all.
1500 BV was me with my normal tanking set, which only had Forlorn Barrier for bonus BV.

The additional iterations were to demonstrate that Shield Block does not cause Shield Slam damage to diminish any faster from its bonus block value (the bonus block val we gain from shield block - if it did, then the damage per block value for shield slam while shield block is active should have a steeper slope than shield slams w/o shield block up in the graph I posted). I wasn't trying to say BV is good or bad, but that the current tier of itemization doesn't support the shield slam portion of the 2PC T10 bonus well.

Also, Glyph of Blocking seemed to have no impact on my shield slam damage at all. This again, on target dummies. So maybe there's something very wrong with the target dummies themselves.

Some numbers observed from my ICC25 raid tonight :
T10 Gloves/Shoulder for 2PC Bonus, T9 Helm/Legs (258 version) for their BV, Forlorn Barrier, Darkmoon Greatness, Grim Toll ~2350 BV unbuffed.

6k Shield Slam crits (10k with SB active)
8-10k Shockwave crits

Edit : Added Darkmoon Trinket/Grim Toll

Bodasafa
12-30-2009, 11:03 PM
I finally gave in tonight and got the Cloak and Waist. Seriously nice stuff, think I upped my HP by 1k and the armor by 1400.

Not sure anyone could go wrong with the Cloak/Waist/Gloves as your first purchases. However what you have dictates what would be the best upgrade.

In regards to the thread title getting back to the tier I would say the 2pc and 4 pc could be useful at times. Like any good tank I'm looking to get it all at some point.

It seems the helm/shoulders are probably the best vs. off set pieces. The question is what other 2 would be replaced to reach the 4pc.

The off set chest is monster, same the way the Towering Monster chest was vs. the Tier. So I'd probably say Legs/Gloves.

Xianth
12-31-2009, 03:02 AM
As I raid 10 mans and generally have one healer on me at any time, I will be going for 4 piece.

The dilemma is which pieces. Aside from the helm and shoulders being a dead cert, expertise seems a premium on the gear i have access too so it's unlikely i'll be taking the pillars of might (using the set legs instead), but that's not biggie as there's the glove or chest options with high armor too.

Xianth
12-31-2009, 03:07 AM
2) because there is no BV on the newer gear, the 2PC T10 is one of the few ways to up your SS damage for TPS, without wearing older tier gear (and thus the paradox).


Don't forget there is a lot more strength on a lot of the tanking pieces, which will make up for *some* of the loss in BV gear if you upgrade across every slot.

swelt
12-31-2009, 03:40 AM
I'd be interested to understand the relative value as a threat stat of BV vs Strength these days, given that:
- Str grants a little BV
- BV only applies to one (admittedly significant) attack, and our reflective damage
- Devastate, post buff and with glyph, is a bigger part of our overall threat than it was and scales with AP (from Str)
Not necessarily on topic for this thread though?

feji
12-31-2009, 05:11 AM
Don't forget there is a lot more strength on a lot of the tanking pieces, which will make up for *some* of the loss in BV gear if you upgrade across every slot.

Here's a comparion of some 245->264 gear (rings/trinket/weapon/shield omitted) :
BP = 116-162
FEET = 81-114
HANDS = 76-120
HEAD = 103-162
LEGS = 103-162
SHOULDERS = 86-120
WAIST = 81-120
WRIST = 50-90

Not each slot will yield the maximum delta strength, as some 245 ilvl items beat higher ilvl items of the same slot in strength. Maximum strength gain is 321 *1.06 = 340 str = 170 BV; by just wearing T9 helm alone yields more BV.

Originally my plan was to get shoulders and bp/helm for the 2PC T10. After testing it out and realizing that all the new gear doesn't synergize with the shield slam portion of the 2PC T10 that well, I finally came to the conclusion that I'd use the gloves/shoulders for the 2PC T10 bonus. This is mainly because the leg/bp slots are dominated by Pillars of Might/Cataclymic Chestguard for EH, and I already have the Broken Ram Skull helm and T9 258 Helm to swap around. The T10 Gloves allow me to retain a decent hit rating after swapping out my T9 legs for Pillars of Might.

Remember, unless blizzard is going to vastly change the unreleased bosses in ICC, most of the easy mode versions of the bosses were defeated on the PTR in 258 gear.

Kojiyama
12-31-2009, 05:14 AM
Feji, one thing to mention (although this is at the risk of going a bit off-topic) is that your Block Value in raids will be significantly higher due to BoK and SoE Totem. That makes it considerably easier to hit the cap with Shield Block active.

swelt, as for your question... For a standard single-target rotation with full raid buffs, for me the TPS value relative to item budget on a bit of an arbitrary scale (it's actually a factor of TPS, but multiplied by a strange number so it's big enough to compare easily!) is:



30.76 Block Value 253.05
10 Strength 225.56
10 Hit Rating 188.65
10 Expertise Rating 171.58
10 Agility 97.10
10 Haste Rating 54.04



Keep in mind, I'm well over the Expertise soft-cap. The value of Expertise is basically doubled below it.

If I equip two pieces of T10 for the set bonus, my scalers become:


30.76 Block Value 293.65
10 Hit Rating 196.49
10 Expertise Rating 178.42
10 Strength 171.06
10 Agility 102.85
10 Haste Rating 55.06


...so it's clear that the flat 20% multiplier does a lot to increase the scaling of Block Value. For me, the 2-set bonus is worth around 350-400 TPS, which is quite non-trivial.

The thing I'll note is that, at least with my gear, I am at roughly 1850 Block Value fullly raid-buffed, with an older-tier shield.

However, after looking over the items the fact of the matter is that despite comments about DPS stats and such there is honestly next to no way you can 'gear' for TPS in the newer tier of gear, other than picking up a few of the items with Expertise/Hit.

There simply aren't any real threat-oriented alternative items that have enough "tanking" stats to be viable in ICC.

Basically, the only 'real' option for TPS gearing is to put together a set which is both Hit-capped and at least Expertise soft-capped, get an upgraded shield and maybe use the T9 258 Helm for Block Value. There are honestly no other Block Value items that actually beat the TPS gains of Hit/Expertise/Strength/etc. on alternative items in other slots that I can see. If you need any more threat than that, the optimal option is to simply use trinket slots.

Realistically, you can gain almost 3-4 times as much TPS in a trinket slot for the same survivability cost as with 'normal' armor slots going for more DPS-oriented items. So, honestly, if you're worried about your TPS just get a Needle-Encrusted Scorpion - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50198) and swap it in when you need to, it's one of the highest TPS trinkets you can get as a Prot Warrior. (Will add between 400-500 TPS, typically.)

However, the end result here is quite minimal. Even with a set that is totally capped out on the above stats and more or less optimized for TPS within the bounds of being decent-ish tanking gear, you will not gain that much TPS.

Presuming that your Vigilance target will be doing 7000 base TPS (not unreasonable at current DPS levels) and you have Glyph of Devastate, Deep Wounds, etc. the fully Hit/Expertise/BV-geared set will do 11031 TPS, while a 'normal' full survival set will do 10205 TPS. So, realistically, you're giving up ridiculous amounts of survival (you take about 52% more damage :P) for 800 or so TPS.

Or you could simply swap the survival value of one trinket for ~400 TPS... (Or you can Glyph Vigilance, which will give similar results--or even greater, depending on fight mechanics--just at the cost of a Glyph slot. That said, Glyph of Devastate almost as good.) I would guess the choice is clear. :)

TLDR version: Don't care about TPS stats on progression gear. At the end of the day it makes next to no difference and there isn't much, if any, viable gear to consider to begin with.

Xianth
12-31-2009, 05:20 AM
Here's a comparion of some 245->264 gear (rings/trinket/weapon/shield omitted) :
BP = 116-162
FEET = 81-114
HANDS = 76-120
HEAD = 103-162
LEGS = 103-162
SHOULDERS = 86-120
WAIST = 81-120
WRIST = 50-90

Not each slot will yield the maximum delta strength, as some 245 ilvl items beat higher ilvl items of the same slot in strength. Maximum strength gain is 321 *1.06 = 340 str = 170 BV; by just wearing T9 helm alone yields more BV.


Which was my point, as in reality your "standard" gear setup will probably have 1/2 items with bv on, if at all, so the gain across all items in strength would make up for the loss of one piece. You would most certainly not be gearing towards both BV by downgearing to all of the 226 or wearing togc10 BV bits (shoulder + shield) so in reality you won't have had much gear BV to lose inthe first place.

So, you would not lose much/any bv so you would no way "have" to downgrade gear just to make up for the benefit of the 2 piece bonus.

Knighterrant81
12-31-2009, 05:47 AM
I like the warrior 4pc bonus, and here's why.

As somone pointed out, an extra 10-18k health every minute is not necessarily going to save you outright from a boss swing.

However, what it does do is mean that every min, you need 10-18k less healing. Over the course of a boss fight, that is significantly less healing the healers have to put out and can focus their attention on other tanks or on teh raid.

As a healer main, I know that when I have to babysit tanks more, that means I have less of my attention available to save other lives or to adjust my positioning. Even if it may be a small amount compared to current health levels, the absorb will make healer's lives significantly easier, just like all other cooldowns currently do.

Kojiyama
12-31-2009, 05:58 AM
Well, pretty much it becomes 1 of 2 things in a raid scenario.

1) It's an extra "oh-crap" button if you drop low, which will save you from the next swing.

2) It will somehow stop you from getting one-shot by [insert new fancy uber boss ability here].

Beyond that, it doesn't matter a lot. Saving healers 1 heal per minute is next to nothing at this point.

feji
12-31-2009, 07:41 AM
Feji, one thing to mention (although this is at the risk of going a bit off-topic) is that your Block Value in raids will be significantly higher due to BoK and SoE Totem. That makes it considerably easier to hit the cap with Shield Block active.


BoK+SoE will yield an additional ~120 BV. Hitting the cap with SB active shouldn't make any difference in gear choices, as its uptime is only 25%. So for the majority of an encounter (75%), you're not going to be hitting diminishing returns on block value's contributions to shield slam damage.


Which was my point, as in reality your "standard" gear setup will probably have 1/2 items with bv on, if at all, so the gain across all items in strength would make up for the loss of one piece. You would most certainly not be gearing towards both BV by downgearing to all of the 226 or wearing togc10 BV bits (shoulder + shield) so in reality you won't have had much gear BV to lose inthe first place.

So, you would not lose much/any bv so you would no way "have" to downgrade gear just to make up for the benefit of the 2 piece bonus.

In reality I was only using T9 helm/legs and Forlorn Barrier in my "normal" set anyways. All the other slots were EH.

Once again, I'm not saying you *NEED* outrageous amounts of BV for the bonus to be worthwhile - I mean I've completely left out shockwave in my posts. I'm saying that there's no BV gear in the new tier of gear, and that the 2PC T10 bonus is one of the few ways to substantially increase your shield slam considering there is no BV in the new tier of gear.

Kojiyama
12-31-2009, 08:11 AM
Well, hitting the cap with Shield Block active reduces the value by 25%, as you noted. (Or more, depending on the fight.)

That being the case, without the 2-set T10 bonus, Block Value falls down to 4th on the TPS scaling front, behind Strength, Hit, and Expertise below the soft-cap.

With the 2-set bonus, the value of Block Value increases to the top again, albiet only slightly if adjusted for Shield Block uptime--however the lack of viable Block Value items (other than possibly the 258 T9 Helm) makes this a non-issue for consideration, realistically. Block Value items have almost never been itemized properly (either having Block Rating or having Block Value in the place of a mitigation stat instead of a threat stat) and have always generally not been great items until Anub-25H came along. :P

Either way, it doesn't matter much. Just getting the 2-set bonus is a massive TPS increase, but the loss of Block Value is mostly offset by the overall Armor (AP) and Strength increases on the gear, and the higher amounts of Expertise/Hit available on decent tanking pieces.

Bodasafa
12-31-2009, 10:14 AM
but the loss of Block Value is mostly offset by the overall Armor (AP) and Strength increases on the gear, and the higher amounts of Expertise/Hit available on decent tanking pieces.

That is a very good point. Because of Armored to the Teeth - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61222) getting a giant boost from all this bonus armor we should see a good increase to our attack power, which in turn increases threat/dps.

With more hit itemization on ICC gear reaching the hit cap with dranei or just from gear alone seems very reasonable, which will also increase threat generation.

Overall threat has not been an issue and I fail to see how it will all the sudden become one in the near future, especially with the 2 points mentioned above, regardless of there being almost no SBV equips available.

Good threat relies more on properly using your priority rotation/vigilance and has less to do with your gear.

The more I look at the Tier the less I like any of it, even for the bonuses. In fact I would probably rate the strongest piece the legs due to the expertise on it. Though I'm hard pressed to take them since Pillars of Might are so very good.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but this thread has been a really good resource for gear discussion in 3.3, so I wanted to add this:


I decided to check what listed pieces have expertise and found the following (of course this excludes Lich King Drops and I left out the tier):
Grinning Skull Greatboots - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50190/grinning-skull-greatboots/) (25 man Normal Valithria)
The Facelifter - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51010/the-facelifter/) (10 Man Normal Putricide)
Veincrusher Gauntlets - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51556/veincrusher-gauntlets/) (10 Man Normal Queen Lanithil)
Deathforged Legplates - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50808/deathforged-legplates/) (10 Man Normal Suarfang)
Cataclysmic Chestguard - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50968/cataclysmic-chestguard/) (95 EoF)

So if you were to take say the Badge Chest and Boots in that list you would have:

Chest - 82 rating
Boots - 53 rating
Total = 135 rating = 16 skill
Add +6 Skill from Vitality = 22 skill
Add +1 Skill from Guardian's Dreadstone - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40141) to activate your meta = 23 skill

So you only need to come up with 3 skill, which if I remember correctly could be covered by eating expertise food (think it gives 4 or 5 skill). Which is fine since we should no longer be needing hit food due to the new ICC itemization including more hit.

Bodasafa
12-31-2009, 10:20 AM
To go a bit further I did the tier legs (264) and badge chest:

Chest - 82 rating
Legs - 82 rating
Total = 164 rating = 20 skill
Add +6 Skill from Vitality = 26 skill ... DONE!

Looking at this that might be the best way to get the expertise soft cap.

Ill be picking up the tier pieces later to use as an avoidance set should I need one for heroic modes. But as I see it the Armor Bonus items beat the tier hands down for any Magic or Physical fight having the most Stamina and Armor.

To answer the question posed in the thread title "Are the Set Bonuses Worth It?". In my opinion no. The 2 pc might be nice for arenas, but is hardly compelling for a threat increase (which is hardly an issue to begin with) and compensated by armored to the teeth as mentioned in the above posts. The 4pc may be useful in heroic modes, but it seems you would be giving up a ton of EH to reach it.

Eravian
01-08-2010, 10:32 AM
Sorry to necro this post (although it's not that old yet, and still useful, so maybe necro isn't the right word), but I was curious if the EH calculations done with the 4-piece were factoring in the damage shield every minute or not?

I'm just curious, since although the offset pieces are gorgeous and beautiful, I've been considering of late just getting the Cataclysmic Chestguard and picking up the rest in tier-pieces, partly for the Expertise, partly for the fun of going for a 4-pc, and partly because (possible PvProt nerfing withstanding) that 4-pc absorb shield would be handy for PvProt...

...the only problem is going to be that my Frost badge intake isn't really that high right now (even compared to the low income rate that everyone has), so it's not necessarily realistic to buy the full off-set and then the tier pieces...

That's why I'm curious about the 4-piece shield affecting EH values (and sorry if someone mentioned this before and I missed it)... don't want to hurt myself too bad, even though hard modes aren't really in the immediate future at this point.

Kojiyama
01-08-2010, 10:51 AM
The EH values are likely without the shield calculated in. It's quite difficult to suppose how the shield would be used, on average. However, honestly the EH gain "over time" is pretty low. Basically you are gaining that percentage of EH for a single swing, then not having it for the next 58 seconds of the fight. I would personally calculate it more like mitigation than EH when looking at the "over time" value, however it's primary value is in being a triggered EH increase for a single large hit.

On a note about the main topic... I have been fortunate enough in the span of the last week or so to get both the offset Helm and Shoulders, meaning I have officially put my set bonus on hold until I get the Chest and Cloak--thus, all the offset pieces, as I already have the Belt and Gloves. Will be getting the Cloak tomorrow, then banking for the big spend on the offset Chest.

Can't see myself putting much effort into collecting the set for a while, honestly, especially considering that the people whom which I share a token with generally have pretty uber set bonuses and are all very inclined to get 2-set bonuses (and 4-set in many cases) as quickly as possible.

nimchip
01-18-2010, 11:19 PM
Question: Does the 4pc bonus continue absorbing hits up to 20% of your total health pool for the whole 10 seconds? Or is it just one? I was reading up some replies and it seemed like some of you think it's just one more hit that will be absorbed sort of like a pw: shield mechanic. I could be wrong on this assumption so please if someone could elaborate on this I would be most thankful.

Kojiyama
01-19-2010, 03:53 AM
Don't think anyone has the 4-set yet that I know of, so only guessing here.. but the way it appears to be is simply an absorb shield of X value, which when consumed disappears. This could be spread across multiple small hits or consumed by one large hit.

nimchip
01-19-2010, 04:53 AM
Assuming 50k to 60k buffed health pools that would mean 10k to 12k worth of absorbs and it that lasts for all hits taken during the 10 second window that means a lot. Obviously not as strong as for just one hit unless it is a 60k nuke on us which sounds a little gimmicky to me.

I still agree with the t10 helm/shoulder build however, except for maybe 25m Festergut and even then I'm doing perfectly fine (got him to 2% this week with a guild alliance of 3 guilds since my guild is now a 10m guild) with the pieces I got and managing cds on 3rd inhales.

Kojiyama
01-19-2010, 05:16 AM
Why would it 'last for all hits'?

It's going to absorb X amount, until it's consumed. If you are getting hit for 2k and the asborb is 12k, then you can absorb 6 hits. If you get hit for 6k it will absorb 2 hits, if you get hit for 25k (as per normal) it will take half the hit off.

It's more or less putting a double-strength PWS on you.

So, basically, what it amounts to is the ability to:
a) Potentially avoid a 1-shot every 1 minute
b) Become even more immune to trash with Shield Block up than you are already

...and that's about it.

swelt
01-19-2010, 05:28 AM
I think there's a C) make your last stand better.

robbon
01-19-2010, 06:47 AM
lots of numbers and theory but imo you need to remember to split the tank population in 2. Those that will be progressing the isntances with acceptable gear, and those that will cruise the instances with uber gear.

We are allready seeing that guilds who cleared ToC hardmodes are cruising through the new wings they will have the uber gear and get even more uberness whilst those of us who managed to just really start hardmodes at the icc launch are still not done with figuring out why we are unable to kill festergut on 25man or in a lot of cases Saurfang.

As a tank in such a guild yep the 245 T9.25 is pretty uber for me, i would loved to have had some of the heroic versions of what i have for that extra bumph. Likewise i would love my dps boys to have it also as it would probably gain us that extra 20-30 seconds to kill some of the bosses. They cruise whilst we have to really push beyond our gear level.

The t10.25 looks nice but the t10 base set imo as a progression raid (i mean our guild progression, not world first guild) tank is meh. Im simply gatehring as many frost badges as i can and hitting the emblem gear.

I wont be seeing lich king or professor putri for a long time yet and as such some of us will have to make do. I use the term "make do" loosely, as in my opinion some of that emblem gear is still pretty solid when compared to T10.25.

But those guilds cruising through all 25 man content now will be gaining more frost badges faster and as such will be able to afford the t10 sets in a shorter duration of time to most of us.

Dreadski
01-19-2010, 06:53 AM
/disagree.

While better gear allows the tanks to take more damage, the dps to dole out more damage, and the healers to heal more efficiently, the reason they "cruise through" has nothing to do with gear. Better-skilled raids will always have more badges simply because they kill stuff quicker (but again, that's their playstyle, the gear is just a small icing on the cake). Many of them could clear the same way in Naxx epics.

robbon
01-19-2010, 07:02 AM
Partial agree, we lack consistency not skill. On a low pop server with limited resources we can never compete against the likes of Paragon, dont really want to.. The very fact that we kill stuff at the level we do with the gear level we have across the raid is more attributed to skill than gear.

Yet some guilds - on our server anyway - have players with the gear, but no idea. Stand and spam can carry a lot of dps players as we have proven.

Dont get me wrong, a skilled and organised raid grp will allways outperform, but we have skilled players - just lack the consistency of attendance and application.

nimchip
01-19-2010, 07:02 AM
Why would it 'last for all hits'?

It's going to absorb X amount, until it's consumed. If you are getting hit for 2k and the asborb is 12k, then you can absorb 6 hits. If you get hit for 6k it will absorb 2 hits, if you get hit for 25k (as per normal) it will take half the hit off.

It's more or less putting a double-strength PWS on you.

So, basically, what it amounts to is the ability to:
a) Potentially avoid a 1-shot every 1 minute
b) Become even more immune to trash with Shield Block up than you are already

...and that's about it.

I get what you said, I just thought it's way too dumb for Blizzard to put such a weak 4pc so I was just thinking about how it would be if it did last the whole duration. The wording is similar to PW:S so I would assume you're right, however I'm still disappointed in the bonus.

Kojiyama
01-19-2010, 07:11 AM
I'm not sure I understand the point of the badge/skill/gear argument, exactly.

The advantage to killing Professor in 25-man is 2 badges a week. Even if you ignore the entire wing in 25-man, you're talking 6 badges a week out of the potential 47 badges available per week.

The 10-man is not super-hard for any 25-man group, and Professor will be the only real challenge, so take that to 8 out of the 47 missing--which is only a 14% increase in badge intake. That's not a lot.

Either way, I think the general consensus is that most of the badge items are better for progression, regardless of your availability of tokens or badges. Cost isn't the problem with the T10 set--itemization is. This should apply quite evenly to both 'types' of guilds.

robbon
01-19-2010, 07:28 AM
i agree. The itemisation on T10 set is not what it should be for something that costs as much as it does, especially when compared to emblem gear and current 25 man drops.

what i think i was trying to say is that a tank in ToGC25 lvl gear (incl T9.5) will not be rushing to spend his emblems unless he really thinks an item provides a sufficient upgrade over his Heroic lvl gear.

A tank in Toc25 lvl + 245 t9.25 will be spending thier badges as fast as they can on emblem gear to get that little extra.

which i suppose keeps those at the front, in front.

swelt
01-19-2010, 07:36 AM
Regardless of the reason behind it (time, skill, commitment, colour of socks), the fact remains that there is unlikely to be a single "best" gear buying order. You need to consider:
- What your badge income is
- What drops you are in line to get
- What drops you have already had
- What (if any) specific thresholds you want to reach to enable progression

I would say that there are likely to be many more variations than "splitting into 2". There are hardcore 10 man strict raiders, casual 25 mans, puggers, hardcore 25 man and all other variations in between. If I were to attempt a summary of the gear choices it would boil down to:
- Bonus armor is very good
- 4pc Tier bonus is not that good, nor known to be "must-have"

robbon
01-19-2010, 07:47 AM
and that as they say is that. :)

Josemi
01-19-2010, 10:55 AM
I wanna thank all posters for some very helpful and well-founded info. It has certainly helped me in making my mind as to how I will spend my emblems.

Archylus
01-25-2010, 03:17 PM
Well, I still don't know what is better xD

With the wowhead comparison tool I get this

http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=51218:51215:51219:51217:51216;51218:51215 :50968:50978:51216;51218:51215:50968:51217:51216&focus=0

Seems that 4 pieces tier and 1 off. Are a balance spec.
Still don't get too shocked by the bonus, 20% of my max healt can be mmm like 10k maybe a little more ( In some boss this means like 2 secs :S )

I'm wrong ?

Aggathon
01-25-2010, 03:48 PM
The bonus armor for the off pieces is way better, imo. I have finished off all of the emblem gear now (just have tier left) and am currently using 258 T9 helm and shoulders. I also got unidentifiable organ and I am sitting at 36k armor unbuffed in my regular gear, and my healers subsequently love me, lol. I think going in to hardmodes this will be the best setup, but once 277 comes along, the teir will pass it and the on use will be even better.

Daxwax
01-25-2010, 03:55 PM
They are going to buff the armor on tier10 gloves and chest it seems.
http://www.worldofraids.com/wow-blue-tracker/us-forums/22748757488-tier-10-tank-armor-changes.html

Its a change to make the heroic (277 ilvl) setpieces more viable than the badge items (EH) I suppose.

Kojiyama
01-25-2010, 04:25 PM
Will really have to see what the actual changes are... I frankly doubt they can make the gloves better very easily. The chest is more of a toss-up, but we'll have to see how the stats shake up. Glad the notification happened today, as I just got my 95 badges for the offset chest today but hadn't bought them before I saw it. :P

The Expertise is going to be hard to beat, though...even if the armor goes up. Very hard to say.

Darksend
01-25-2010, 08:13 PM
Will really have to see what the actual changes are... I frankly doubt they can make the gloves better very easily. The chest is more of a toss-up, but we'll have to see how the stats shake up. Glad the notification happened today, as I just got my 95 badges for the offset chest today but hadn't bought them before I saw it. :P

The Expertise is going to be hard to beat, though...even if the armor goes up. Very hard to say.

my thoughts exactly, both that I was about to buy the chest tomorrow for my warrior and that I was thinking I still might buy it anyway for the expertise. Although they only mentioned those gloves and chest, which means it is probably still worth it to get the legs crafted.

Aggathon
01-25-2010, 11:26 PM
I said it in the other thread, but I'll go ahead and say it here and update when we have actual numbers, but I don't think this will make the T10.264 better than the off pieces, however I think it will make the T10.277 better than the off pieces, which previously they were not (sadly). The improved armor was just too good, but if they bump the 277 T10 up to similar levels then the T10 will definitely be better and you'll probably cruise around in helm/shoulders/gloves/chest T10 and Pillars of Might for legs.

It still doesn't really change my general gearing strategy.

mistersix
01-26-2010, 12:39 AM
my thoughts exactly, both that I was about to buy the chest tomorrow for my warrior and that I was thinking I still might buy it anyway for the expertise. Although they only mentioned those gloves and chest, which means it is probably still worth it to get the legs crafted.

I'm the sort of person that get's beaned in the head by this change: I started with the belt, nabbed the gloves, and was on my way to the cape but then got the togc10 insanity cape so I opted for the chest instead of the cape. Blargh.

Proletaria
01-26-2010, 12:46 AM
I said it in the other thread, but I'll go ahead and say it here and update when we have actual numbers, but I don't think this will make the T10.264 better than the off pieces, however I think it will make the T10.277 better than the off pieces, which previously they were not (sadly). The improved armor was just too good, but if they bump the 277 T10 up to similar levels then the T10 will definitely be better and you'll probably cruise around in helm/shoulders/gloves/chest T10 and Pillars of Might for legs.

It still doesn't really change my general gearing strategy.

While I agree with your asessment of only 277 being clearly "better," than offset, I think it is possible the two improved t10 bits COULD (i'm eagerly awaiting the updated stats) make the 4set worth getting. The old gap between t10 and offset was something like 72 stam and 2k armor. If that got cut down significantly at all, i'd be much more inclined to take the t10 for set bonuses.

nimchip
01-26-2010, 08:17 AM
While I agree with your asessment of only 277 being clearly "better," than offset, I think it is possible the two improved t10 bits COULD (i'm eagerly awaiting the updated stats) make the 4set worth getting. The old gap between t10 and offset was something like 72 stam and 2k armor. If that got cut down significantly at all, i'd be much more inclined to take the t10 for set bonuses.

For the 4piece bonus? I thought everyone understood that it's terrible by now...

Proletaria
01-26-2010, 11:43 AM
For the 4piece bonus? I thought everyone understood that it's terrible by now...

It might be mediocre, but it the tradeoff for it is negligible amounts of stam and armor (less than half the current trade-off, lets say), then you're in a much diffirent situation. Again, i'm not expecting the ilvl264 tier or non-tier gearing strategy to change a lot, but the possibility of changing long-term gearing strategy is very realistic. We are not incredibly far from seeing ilvl 277 become avalible.

Bodasafa
01-26-2010, 02:03 PM
We really need to see the numbers on the ilvl 251 and 264 Tier 10 to make any solid conclusions on if we wasted 155+ Frosts on the Badge Gloves, Chest and possibly the Pants. If the 264 version has the same Armor and the same HP, then we got screwed, cause we missed a free set bonus outta the deal and burned a ton of hard to get Frosts in the process.

The point is not so much what the set bonus is, more that we could have gotten it without a huge loss compared to the Badge items.

ItZMuRdA
01-26-2010, 02:58 PM
and possibly the Pants

Afaik the plan is to only change the tier chest and gloves, while the pants are left untouched. With that being said, Pillars of Might should still outshine the tier leggings by a long shot, even the 277 version (unless you were maximizing expertise for some very rare scenario).

nimchip
01-26-2010, 04:32 PM
We really need to see the numbers on the ilvl 251 and 264 Tier 10 to make any solid conclusions on if we wasted 155+ Frosts on the Badge Gloves, Chest and possibly the Pants. If the 264 version has the same Armor and the same HP, then we got screwed, cause we missed a free set bonus outta the deal and burned a ton of hard to get Frosts in the process.

The point is not so much what the set bonus is, more that we could have gotten it without a huge loss compared to the Badge items.

Here we go: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748757488&sid=1&pageNo=13 (its on this page though i dont know how to link to specific posts)


Here are examples of how the set pieces will be changing in the next minor patch:

Current Warrior Tier-10 Pieces (item level 251)


Ymirjar Lord's Handguards

1579 Armor
+81 Strength
+148 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 71.
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 63.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 54.


Ymirjar Lord's Breastplate

2526 Armor
+144 Strength
+191 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +9 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 76.
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 68.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 68.


Updated Warrior Tier-10 Pieces (item level 251)


Ymirjar Lord's Handguards

2461 Armor
+81 Strength
+148 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 71.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 54.


Ymirjar Lord's Breastplate

3590 Armor
+144 Strength
+191 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +9 Stamina
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 60.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 76.


Current Death Knight Tier-10 Pieces (item level 251)


Scourgelord Handguards

1579 Armor
+81 Strength
+148 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 71.
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 63.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 54.


Scourgelord Chestguard

2526 Armor
+144 Strength
+191 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Strength
Equip: Increases defense rating by 60.
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 76.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 76.


Updated Death Knight Tier-10 Pieces (item level 251)


Scourgelord Handguards

2461 Armor
+81 Strength
+148 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 71.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 54.


Scourgelord Chestguard

3590 Armor
+144 Strength
+191 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Strength
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 60.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 76.


Current Paladin Tier-10 Pieces (item level 251)


Lightsworn Handguards

1579 Armor
+81 Strength
+148 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 71.
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 63.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 54.


Lightsworn Chestguard

2526 Armor
+144 Strength
+191 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +9 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 76.
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 60.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 76.


Updated Paladin Tier-10 Pieces (item level 251)


Lightsworn Handguards

2461 Armor
+81 Strength
+148 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 71.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 54.


Lightsworn Chestguard

3590 Armor
+144 Strength
+191 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +9 Stamina
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 60.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 76.

Kazeyonoma
01-26-2010, 04:38 PM
wow, 900 armor and 1k armor bonuses, at the expense of avoidance, not terrible, but if you wear pillars AND this chest, I wonder how low our defense will be...

Bodasafa
01-26-2010, 05:03 PM
The real issue will present itself in the 264 numbers. Based on the 251 numbers the 264 look to be very similar to the Badge items. In which case people who bought the Gloves/Chest and passed on 264 tokens got screwed, cause they could have gotten a free set bonus outta the deal and an item they can upgrade with just another token.

The lack of defense could present and issue. They are probably trying to remove it slowly as they can due to it being removed entirely in Cata.

Bodasafa
01-26-2010, 05:16 PM
This just in: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22748757488&sid=1&pageNo=15


I forgot to add that Gauntlets of the Kraken are changing slightly as well:

Current Vendor Armor


Gauntlets of the Kraken

2308 Armor
120 Strength
157 Stamina
Red Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +9 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 63.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 63.


Updated Vendor Armor


Gauntlets of the Kraken

2658 Armor
120 Strength
157 Stamina
Red Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +9 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 63.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 48.

krc
01-26-2010, 05:34 PM
The changes aren't that bad if you think about it, when comparing the offset shoulders, helmet, chest and gloves to the T10 ones you can see that with equal amounts of EH the T10 is still slightly worse for whatever reason whether it is lack of expertise, defense, socket etc... It all depends on your current gear situation, you have to remember that this change only affects us until we have the badges to get all offset pieces and be able to get the 2pc which is very soon and excelerating becuase of new bosses. If you aren't counting on getting many drops for whatever reasons you may have I would still grab the offset gloves and chest followed by the T10 helm and shoulders since if you aren't counting on getting drops the T10 helm and shoulders have no upgrades while the T10 gloves and chest do have slight upgrades.

That being said assuming that you have or will get the shoulders and helmet to drop the best T10 2pc combo is the gloves and helmet since the chest losses huge amounts of expertise and defense compared the offset piece and the T10 shoulders lose 18 stamina due to a socket bonus comapred to the drop.

So the T10 2pc list assuming you get all drops is

1.Helmet - Equal EH, small loss in avoidance trading strength for hit

2. Gloves - Equal EH, trades parry for hit

3. Chest - Big losses of defense and expertise

4. Shoulders - Loss of 18 stamina because of an extra socket on the dropped ones

This list only applies assuming all of these slots are at an equal gear level meaning this is the right list for if you have all 251s or all 264s. When ever you have the 264 piece this list gets completely shifted meaning that if you already have the 264 helmet it is the worth piece to get T10 at for immediate upgrade. The chest and shoulder rank is interchangable depending on your current expertise and defense situation.

mistersix
01-26-2010, 06:02 PM
so... all that effort and hullabaloo to achieve what exactly? In the long-run for players not doing t10.277 content I'm not sure this changes anything. Perplexing.

Kojiyama
01-26-2010, 06:29 PM
I am really very perplexed about the changes from a numerical point of view.

They actually raised the amount of Parry on the chest, and removed 100% of the defense just to give it the same bonus armor as the badge chest? What?

Key mistake and huge problem with this change:
Defense may not be a sexy stat to most, but point-for-point it is better for survival time than either Dodge or Parry rating for a high-end tank!

So...by removing all the Def and spending more points on Parry, they have effectively traded off a significant avoidance value in return for the armor, while the badge chest has no such design flaw. Even with the upgrade to 264 stats, the T10 chest is likely to not have any more EH than the badge chest (see: extra socket) and either less on barely any more avoidance despite the fact that it is 'missing' 82 Expertise! By dumping all the Defense Rating and raising the Parry at the expense of Dodge, they have effectively reduced the item's potential significantly.

I'm also not totally sure why they didn't sacrifice the Hit Rating on the gloves instead of the Dodge Rating. They have effectively not increased the survival time value on the items at all, despite the EH increase--and as they increased the armor on the badge gloves as well while optimizing their stat allocation, the T10 gloves are still just as inferior to the badge gear as they are currently, especially considering that Hit is not an important Warrior stat for TPS gains.

Even more perplexing given that change is the Gauntlets of the Kraken change, there they sacrifice over-costed Parry Rating for more bonus armor, thus doing exactly the opposite as with the T10 chest and increasing the mitigation value of the item in addition to its EH. Really, really odd.

So, really, the changes leave me more confused than anything. Honestly not sure what the aim of them is.

Bowen
01-26-2010, 09:17 PM
I'm have thoughts that long term and possibly short, Blizzard don't either Jayde. The apparent changes that wouldn't make protection any worse and now this.

Eisen
01-26-2010, 09:44 PM
wow, 900 armor and 1k armor bonuses, at the expense of avoidance, not terrible, but if you wear pillars AND this chest, I wonder how low our defense will be...

By making the 251 t10 pieces that musch closer to the non-set badge pieces, and all the other things they've been doing, I think it's obvious they're trying to force us into 4/5 if not 5/5 t10, and away from the crafted legs and non-set pieces.

I suspect they're expecting us to get the defense from rings/weapons/shields. I know with my current gear if I was to get the new t10 bp plus the pillars right now,l I'd be something like 12 under uncrittable. I'd need to pop a yellow gem in or two and lose some potential stamina slots, but I'd still be well above where I am now. I'd do it.

Edit: oh wait, forgot I can just switch shield/cloak enchants and call it a day. Not so bad.

Bowen
01-26-2010, 10:14 PM
If I have calculated right the changes to the off set gloves will make them higher in armor than the updated 264 tier gloves, meaning with other factors added in they come out on top.

Bukama
01-27-2010, 12:15 AM
Now I am confused what BiS should be, but I think I paid thousands of gold and emblems (pillars and chest) for nuts, when the sets now become better?

nimchip
01-27-2010, 12:18 AM
Now I am confused what BiS should be, but I think I paid thousands of gold and emblems (pillars and chest) for nuts, when the sets now become better?
I think you won't miss a lot if you got those 2 pieces, unless you have a chance at the heroic 25m tokens. The chest is still pretty subpar compared to the t10 ilvl264 chest and the legs will pretty much always be BiS, so you are good. Don't worry about it.

luv2tank
01-27-2010, 12:45 AM
now has your choices changed w/ the new blue post about upgrading the armor value on the gloves and chest to match those almost identically of the vendor items(chest and hands)? Now with that bonus armor added you would think most of the votes are back in the swing of the t10 4pc no? My thing with the start has been just the fact that it seemed blizz put together a pretty decent 2pc/4pc and I'm not sure they are going to let it go to waste vs. some vendor gear. Even with my 2pc on now-vendor belt and armor trink im hovering about 70% damage reduction fully raid buffed w/o an armor pot. Idk-my vote has been and still is the 4pc.

krc
01-27-2010, 06:14 AM
@ Bowen: Blizzard actually added more armor to the offset gloves to make them equal with the T10.


now has your choices changed w/ the new blue post about upgrading the armor value on the gloves and chest to match those almost identically of the vendor items(chest and hands)? Now with that bonus armor added you would think most of the votes are back in the swing of the t10 4pc no? My thing with the start has been just the fact that it seemed blizz put together a pretty decent 2pc/4pc and I'm not sure they are going to let it go to waste vs. some vendor gear. Even with my 2pc on now-vendor belt and armor trink im hovering about 70% damage reduction fully raid buffed w/o an armor pot. Idk-my vote has been and still is the 4pc.

Well right now Luv2 the 4pc isn't really needed so the optimal combo is the head with either the shoulders or gloves depending on your current slots. Although if we do see a boss that actually needs it this chance is very good for us since before the change we were severly gimping ourself.

Eravian
01-27-2010, 08:24 AM
If I had to guess, I'd say the removal of defense rating from the chest is to still keep the gearing option from being too cut and dry (like it was before)... basically if you take the off-set chest, you can use the offset legs easier, if you use the tier 10 chest, using the tier 10 legs balances better (since the Pillars of Might would give an additional really big hit to your defence). Otherwise, you could use the 4-piece + Pillars of Might, and it would be the obvious best choice, minus a little (okay, a lot) Expertise on the chest.

I'm still thinking I'll go Cata + 4/piece, essentially trading the 1k bonus armor on the Pillars for a little more expertise and a once a minute 10k bubble.

Bodasafa
01-27-2010, 09:01 AM
If I had to guess, I'd say the removal of defense rating from the chest is to still keep the gearing option from being too cut and dry (like it was before)

I liked my gearing options cut and dry. They release the gear, we have a debate on whats the best and people make gearing plans based on the conclusions. I'm happy the T10 is getting a buff, but the strange games they are playing with the itemization to give us that buff seem less than ideal. I understand they are removing DEF in Cata, but hey! we still need it now. Maybe this is their subtle way of saying we don't like you stamina stacking everything, put a DEF gem in that yellow slot, instead of a +30 Stam.

Right now my brain hurts, Ill wait till the dust settles and we have solid stats to compare again before I worry any further.

Xequecal
01-27-2010, 10:27 AM
The real issue will present itself in the 264 numbers. Based on the 251 numbers the 264 look to be very similar to the Badge items. In which case people who bought the Gloves/Chest and passed on 264 tokens got screwed, cause they could have gotten a free set bonus outta the deal and an item they can upgrade with just another token.

The lack of defense could present and issue. They are probably trying to remove it slowly as they can due to it being removed entirely in Cata.

As I've said before, remember that the set pieces offer no benefit over the badge armor pieces until you have four of them. The tanks who bought gloves and chest already may have "wasted" 155 badges, but the fact is by the time they actually obtain four 264 tier tokens, they'll be swimming in badges with nothing to spend them on. The tokens are pretty damn rare. At this point, even if you killed every boss the first week, and actually tried to get tier tokens, the expected number of tokens you should have is slightly greater than one. So even if you went for Tier from day one, you'd still only have one piece. That's if loot is distributed randomly, by the way. If you use DKP, as a tank your expected number of tokens is even lower. This is because encounters typically require two tanks only, so for every non-tier tank loot that drops you only have to compete with one other person for that loot. Your higher loot income from this will depress your DKP standing. DPS have to compete with 3-5 others for nonset loot that drops, so overall they spend far less DKP in new raid zones. When you suddenly have to compete against these DPS classes for tier tokens, you will have no chance at winning.

Eravian
01-27-2010, 10:30 AM
One thing to remember is that Toravon will likely drop the 264 t10 gloves and legs... which might make those a bit lower on the priority list for anyone thinking about buying them.

Kojiyama
01-27-2010, 10:53 AM
I still think the most simple fact, for Warriors at least, is that Shaman and Hunters have uber set bonuses for the most part and frankly I would rather see them get theirs at this stage of progression (given the rarity) rather than me taking them for a questionable or nonexistant upgrade.

mistersix
01-27-2010, 10:58 PM
Same, Jayde. I can survive the big bruiser bosses just fine and if me passing on tokens for a bit means the hunters and shaman in my raid can kill (or heal) stuff better than I'm game.

Kazeyonoma
01-28-2010, 10:54 AM
Good point about passing on tokens, until this stuff gets upgraded, the 264 badge pieces are just flat out better... now if the shoulders/helm would drop from their respective bosses i won't have to buy the t10 helm/shoulders either just yet! ;P

Bodasafa
01-29-2010, 10:38 AM
At first I over reacted about the changes feeling like I was put at a disadvantage. However I have come to the same conclusion, I would realistically not have 4pc 264 at this time, so the only gain would have been the set bonus with the 251. I feel like it would help some while were learning Blood Queen 25 but hardly a make or break. Plus as others have stated the other dps classes that share our token get more bang for their buck, so passing to them was a wise investment for our progression as a whole.

Proletaria
01-29-2010, 02:58 PM
At first I over reacted about the changes feeling like I was put at a disadvantage. However I have come to the same conclusion, I would realistically not have 4pc 264 at this time, so the only gain would have been the set bonus with the 251. I feel like it would help some while were learning Blood Queen 25 but hardly a make or break. Plus as others have stated the other dps classes that share our token get more bang for their buck, so passing to them was a wise investment for our progression as a whole.

Exactly. The encounters so far are far more of a check on dps than tanks (esp. queen) so not hoarding 4 tokens off the bat was probably a nice out-come anyway.

mistersix
02-02-2010, 08:09 PM
Do we know what the 10.264 and 10.277 look like now with the changes?

Petninja
02-03-2010, 05:58 PM
This may be a dead point for some now, but until someone has 4pc T10 and actually uses the bloodrage I still don't believe that it's a one time use that gets eaten up in one swing.
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=901
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=889
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=898
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=896
I find it unlikely that all other tanks get an ability that, in general, reduces damage taken by ~12% for 10 seconds and warriors get power word shield. I stand corrected when someone brings moar proof, less QQ.

Aggathon
02-03-2010, 06:00 PM
Just putting this out there, I'm back in school now and have far less free time than I did back in December, so I won't be re-working the numbers for the 264/277 gear, however, if someone wants to do it for me I will gladly update the OP with your findings.

Bodasafa
02-04-2010, 12:36 PM
I think at this stage most everyone who was seriously grinding frost badges will have just about all the off set items if they went for them first. In my opinion the badge items were well worth the initial investment. Even with the T10 armor changes, the 251 versions of the T10 still lack compared to the badge counterparts. After the changes I'm not sure anything has really changed about the initial conclusions brought forth in this thread.

The 2pc is still very "meh" since threat was not an issue. It is even more "meh" now due to the increased baked in threat on shield slam and the buff to devastate.

The 4pc could potentially be very good for heroic modes and with the changes making it slightly less painful to move to. As things sit right now for normal modes I hardly find the 4pc a "must have".

The tokens still benefit the other dps classes more than us.

felhoof
02-04-2010, 02:06 PM
The conclusions might be changed with the revelation of how to do the LK encounter, and that one of the bigger attacks and threats he does to the tank is a large, high-damage spell that occurs about once every 30 seconds.

Naidarim
02-04-2010, 04:17 PM
My guild is currently working Lich king in 25m and after dealing with sindra, I can say that the breaths are the most dangerous things she can do. With a couple stacks of buffet which stacks very fast btw it can easily turn to a 1 shot. That 12k plus asorb from 4pc is going to save you, I personally consider it an extra cool down with last stand and SW.

My guild did insanity a couple of times before the final wing came out of ICC so I was blessed with all 258 gear so going to the 251 for me wasn't an option. Have to take the tokens to keep the 4pc viable or else I drop below 10k asorbs on my Bloodrage.

With the changes to armor the 264 piece equals the badge ones imo. The gloves are kind of meh now but that second socket on the 25m GS shoulders makes it better then our tier atm so kind of locked to those gloves. After doing rawr config I'll be about ~40k armor with 60k health 580ish defense fully buffed. That's using 1 stam trinket and one of the organs which I'm not entirely sure I'll use it due to the mechanics of the trinket.

Since there is alot of magic in ICC I would personaly go with 4pc 264 and event 277 over the badge gear because that free asorb on top of a PW:S is going to be really nice.

luv2tank
02-05-2010, 09:14 AM
not sure everyone uses the frost emblem stam trink w/ the 6400 absorb bubble, but I think I will have to use this in conjunction w/ the 4pc every other min to make it really work good. Currently, I use this bubble when its up as soon as i can or want to use it-however the 6400 bubble literally goes off instantly when I am raiding-but hey it is still 6400 damage I am not taking to the dome. Paired with that would give you almost 15-20k bubble every 2 mins-not bad right?

Aggathon
02-05-2010, 10:05 AM
The conclusions might be changed with the revelation of how to do the LK encounter, and that one of the bigger attacks and threats he does to the tank is a large, high-damage spell that occurs about once every 30 seconds.

We worked on TLK for 2 hours last night in 25 man... what high-damage spell are you talking about? He himself pretty much just melees the MT and his damage is increased by the necrotic plague.
Edit: oooooh wait I know what you're talking about, you're talking about in the val'kyrs p3 part or w/e. We're pretty sure that's a mechanic that requires tank taunting, not cooldowns, when I read my tooltip it said 600000 dmg, I don't think the 12k absorb is gonna help that.
Edit2: went back through logs, it says 50k dmg... idk if you can just taunt off or not, I saw tanks taunting in a 10m video, but it wasn't a tank perspective, so I couldn't tell if that is why they were taunting or not... Honestly we didn't figure we'd get it, so we were just solidifying our strat for P1 and P2 last night and didn't really have all the details of P3... but... yay LK to 65%!!? lol.

I can see how the absorb can be beneficial on a few fights, but I also don't think it is game breaking, doing the fights properly will go a lot further for you than the 4 pc =P.

I personally still stand by offset until 277 T10.

felhoof
02-05-2010, 05:55 PM
We worked on TLK for 2 hours last night in 25 man... what high-damage spell are you talking about? He himself pretty much just melees the MT and his damage is increased by the necrotic plague.
Edit: oooooh wait I know what you're talking about, you're talking about in the val'kyrs p3 part or w/e. We're pretty sure that's a mechanic that requires tank taunting, not cooldowns, when I read my tooltip it said 600000 dmg, I don't think the 12k absorb is gonna help that.
Edit2: went back through logs, it says 50k dmg... idk if you can just taunt off or not, I saw tanks taunting in a 10m video, but it wasn't a tank perspective, so I couldn't tell if that is why they were taunting or not... Honestly we didn't figure we'd get it, so we were just solidifying our strat for P1 and P2 last night and didn't really have all the details of P3... but... yay LK to 65%!!? lol.

It doesn't appear to require tank taunting. Every 25 seconds he does that ability, it looks like. Blood Legion taunts between the tanks so that they can share CDs for each one in that phase, and that looks fairly 'normal' to me; the length of time on the ability is 25 seconds after all, which works perfectly with taunt.

The ability is called "Soul Reaper" and is done by the LK every 25 seconds. You can see an exmaple of this in the 10 man here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i2wwnl774vave55y/log/?s=12955&e=13806

If you watch the BL 10 man kill, you can see the various CDs that they use in the fight to deal with it and when - and it's corresponding to this. Again, a CD would be really handy there. I'm not sure how doing the fight properly not meaning cooldown use is going to fail you there. This isn't like a tank debuff that you have to taunt off like Brutallus.

Aggathon
02-05-2010, 06:50 PM
It doesn't appear to require tank taunting. Every 25 seconds he does that ability, it looks like. Blood Legion taunts between the tanks so that they can share CDs for each one in that phase, and that looks fairly 'normal' to me; the length of time on the ability is 25 seconds after all, which works perfectly with taunt.

The ability is called "Soul Reaper" and is done by the LK every 25 seconds. You can see an exmaple of this in the 10 man here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i2wwnl774vave55y/log/?s=12955&e=13806



If you watch the BL 10 man kill, you can see the various CDs that they use in the fight to deal with it and when - and it's corresponding to this. Again, a CD would be really handy there. I'm not sure how doing the fight properly not meaning cooldown use is going to fail you there. This isn't like a tank debuff that you have to taunt off like Brutallus.

Okay that makes more sense.

felhoof
02-05-2010, 07:07 PM
In any case, I hope you can see how having another cooldown that specifically rocks on one giant attack that's available every 60 seconds would be somewhat beneficial :)

Aggathon
02-05-2010, 07:43 PM
In any case, I hope you can see how having another cooldown that specifically rocks on one giant attack that's available every 60 seconds would be somewhat beneficial :)

Yes, yes I definitely can

last stand - 0
blood rage - 30
shield wall - 60
blood rage - 90
last stand - 120
blood rage - 150
shield wall - 180

It fits in a perfect rotation so you could feasibly have only one tank.

felhoof
02-05-2010, 08:14 PM
Well, in practice you're going to need two tanks anyway for the fight, since shambler + LK damage is simply too high to reasonably deal with. But it makes those 50k bursts much more survivable and would likely reduce the number of healers you need by 1 if both tanks have it.

It also really favors druid tanks thanks to barkskin. Having barkskin, a 4pT10 and SI available is going to be pretty sweet. But their 4p isn't nearly as well suited to dealing with this attack as the warrior one is.

And yes, it might also favor some resistance gear, since at least in normal mode it appears to be resistable. If you can get to about 200 SR you can reliably resist 5k damage on each hit no matter what, and likely will do significantly more. That might be worth it to deal with the burst damage he does, and it does double duty on helping with infest and defile damage.

mistersix
02-05-2010, 09:45 PM
I'm not recalling any shadow resistance gear in this expansion....

Bodasafa
02-06-2010, 12:33 AM
I'm not recalling any shadow resistance gear in this expansion....

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50361

Even on a 1 min CD.

Kojiyama
02-06-2010, 04:10 AM
Given that trinket being on a 1 min cooldown, is it sufficient on its own to be considered a cooldown for that attack? If so, the set bonus wouldn't really be needed specifically.

Babibele
02-06-2010, 05:34 AM
Given our 10 tries on Arthas last night, we decided to manage this issue by taunting the boss when he debuffs our mt so that he wouldn't kill him with a melee shot+soul reaper.
Then we could spare our cooldowns.
Sorry for incorrect english, i did my best to be understandable.

Aggathon
02-06-2010, 01:03 PM
That makes sense Babibele. And for warriors, yes it would be sufficient if you also glyphed shield wall and last stand. I don't see the 4 set as like OMG NECESSARY AND GAME BREAKING, but much like the T8 4pc, it is VERY nice to have in certain situations and makes life just a whole lot easier for people.

felhoof
02-08-2010, 11:09 AM
I'm not recalling any shadow resistance gear in this expansion....Between the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44139, the http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=57696 (only for LW) and the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44939 (especially if you're an alch) along with something like http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49309 it's pretty easy to get to 200 SR without significantly gimping your gear or bonuses. Of course LW has it easier, but that's because it's the best tanking profession ;)

Aggathon
02-08-2010, 12:15 PM
Also felhoof, after talking with a close guild friend in riot act, they have not been using CDs for soulreaper, they have just been taunting off. Soulreaper won't 1 shot you, and 50k damage is healable, the problem is that Arthas melees REALLY REALLY hard and 50k+20-30k melee is not survivable. So... they've just been having their tanks taunt, and they've been able to save cooldowns for oh shit moments.

felhoof
02-08-2010, 12:46 PM
That's fair - but I don't see why you wouldn't use CDs then. There aren't really any ohshit moments other than those for the tanks (around the soul reaper time), so...yeah.

So you're saying they just taunt after a soul reaper so that the next tank gets meleed? Huh.

Naidarim
02-08-2010, 01:13 PM
We did some work on LK in 10m and how soul reaper works is it puts a debuff on the tank and 5 seconds later it ticks for about a 41k shot. How we dealt with this is just have the OT taunt off the Mt when he got the debuff and did a rotation for that. The only catch is that if your OT still has adds on him for the first one you'll need to use a cool down so the 4pc is one of the other ideas to have avail just in case you had to burn some during p1 or p2.

swelt
02-11-2010, 05:50 AM
The concern I still have with this is the encounters and badge incomes for expensive pieces of gear.

4pc Tier 8 wasn't great for warriors because it made their average DTPS lower than the equivalent offset pieces. It was great for warriors because it let them use shield block as an additional cooldown, enabling them to tank bosses like mimiron or IC hard much more easily.

As far as I know, we haven't even seen the Lich King fight in normal yet, nor have we seen hard modes for the key bosses (Putriside/Lanathel/Sindragosa and ofc Lich King hard). Given that they have put a fairly comparable survivability cooldown on every classes tank set, isn't it almost inevitable that they've factored this into the encounter design?
It sucks to be right, and yet to have ignored my own concerns and bought the offset pieces. Now sitting on a 2piece bonus (gloves & shoulders since I had rams helm from day 1) and thus wanting ~190 badges to complete a 4 set. Options:
- Live without it. It seems that the set bonus is not *required* for normal mode soul reaper, but probably is optimal.
- Cry about it. To a GM. Given the order I bought things, this would be a tough sell.
- Trinket it. Or to be specific, get the buffed skeleton key for it's 6k absorb, use that instead of the set bonus - but that's 60 badges in the wrong direction of the set bonus.

Kojiyama
02-11-2010, 07:05 AM
I actually went ahead and got the off-set chest this week even after hearing about The Lich King and given the changes. I simply don't see any compelling reason for the T10 4-set at this time. It seems advantageous to simply use a tank swap on Lich King anyway, and our existing cooldowns are sufficient for the moments where things go wrong.

Honestly, the T10 pieces are far too horribly itemized to be interesting at all until their 277 versions. I will be picking up the 2-set eventually if I can get 2 tokens from 25-man (which may take a while) but as the items are virtually identical in every way other than TPS compared to the two off-set items I have, I feel no rush on this whatsoever.

Frankly, if you removed Warrior T10 from the game hardly anyone would really notice, which is sad but simply the state of the itemization as it currently stands.

Shakatoss
02-11-2010, 07:26 AM
Hey all.

Longtime warrior, longtime reader, firsttime poster.

I've been thinking alot about what items to get. So far ive picked up T10.264 helm and T10.251 gloves of T10.
I simply cant figure out what the best offset would be. Many say that Pillars of Might is the best offset with 4xT10, but from what i can see, you're gonna loose alot of exp. which i dont like. I prefer being as close to the soft cap as possible.
Other people say that the bonus isnt really that great, and then what are the best offsets?
A guy on my server has T10.264 gloves and head along with Bone Commander's Pauldrons, Cataclysmic Chestgaurd and Pillars of Might, and i've thought about this and it seemed as a good choice, but i've already got Boots of Kingly Upheavel, with saronites paid by GB, and i would try as hard i can to avoid that, because thats alot of money, and currently i have 9k.
But then again, the T10 4pc bonus can be helpful sometimes. Im at 57k fully buffed and 20% of that would be 11400. 11400 dmg absorbed every 1min is pretty awesome.

So i've been thinking about getting 4pc T10.264 (when i get enough tokens) and then go with BCP as offset. How good would that be? I would get my expertise from legs, and +armor from chest and gloves.

Long story short: I cant decide what to choose.

Kazeyonoma
02-11-2010, 10:45 AM
sigh, picked up the t10 helm last night to replace the honorbound triumph emblem helm, and all my glorious expertise has all but disappeared, even my raiders noticed my threat sucking =*(*. It makes me sad to think that in order to be optimal, I have to dump 215 more emblems of frost to get my tier 10 4 pc. I'm hoping Koji is right and no one will notice I don't have that extra cooldown =P

fria
02-11-2010, 11:33 AM
I found the 4pc very useful for the initial hit of soulreaper combined with the sindragosa trinket. If you use 2 tanks for that phase the 4pc and sindras trinket will be up for every soulreaper. While you could survive without the cds theres just so much going on with healers getting valkyrs and defile why risk it.

Brage
02-12-2010, 04:16 AM
We switched to using a pally tank last night on LK 25. It seems Ardent Defender's -damage taken effect is more than enough to keep the pally alive after Reaper+Melee hits, so he just solo tanks it. Not to mention the "last stand" portion of AD always hits when needed in that fight.
Kinda annoys me, allthough my Shockwave comes in more handy on the Valkyrs.

Kojiyama
02-12-2010, 05:46 AM
Honestly, I find it a bit funny that such a big deal would even be made about our T10 4-set. At the end of the day--in the context it will be used--it's a clicky that will replicate the effect of Ardent Defender once per minute... if that's all it takes to survive, why not just use a Paladin which will always have the same effect on every time it happens no matter what they do? :)

swelt
02-12-2010, 06:54 AM
So my choices are:
- Get 4pc
- Get someone else to tank

Gee whiz, I wonder...

I can't help noticing that the armories of several of the world first type guilds are sporting 4pc, and various people citing it as a meaningful situational advantage. I will be getting it, though probably not for a couple of weeks depending on badge income. If you choose not to, that's your choice.

Kojiyama
02-12-2010, 07:18 AM
Well, every guild will have two tanks.. most guilds will have a Paladin tank by now for many reasons, so if a Paladin tank has an easy time on the fight where it is most applicable that does seem to be a large mark against it in my books. (Druids should also be able to handle it fine, from the looks of it.) Unless a guild is running Warrior/Warrior or possibly Warrior/DK, it seems like a minor issue at best.

For my part, I tank with a good Paladin so sounds like a non-issue for me personally.

And, again, the other key fact is that the Warrior pieces are very inferior in many ways unless you are using the 264 items at a minimum--which means at least 3 tokens to make it worthwhile. That is just not practical in a lot of cases at this point. The off-set items are generally going to be better for most progression fights due to the higher EH advantage other than the mentioned Lich King scenario and possibly Sindragosa (although resist gear may be better on that fight than the 4-set as well in terms of avoiding burst.)

I figure by the time I will naturally get 3 tokens, I'll have so many badges I won't really know what to do with them anyway and be able to snatch up the 4-set for its potential situational advantages in hardmodes.

Edit: It's also worth noting that the uberprogression guilds are the ones that don't care about this at all. They will have access to 277 tokens soon--or already do. As the 277 items are arguably the best in slot, it makes sense for them to have the 264 items already as they will want to upgrade as soon as possible. For guilds where the 277 tokens are a very long way off, that is a different scenario.

Brage
02-13-2010, 11:29 AM
I've got no doubt in my mind that the warrior 4p bonus is quite strong, but inorder to rival other CDs out there you need to either use it whenever it's up or have fights where such CDs are an incredible help - Sindragosa breath, phase 2-3 switch at putricide, raid wide damage spikes etc.
Personally i'm going for it since there's little to none tradeoff compared to getting offset pieces. With the armor buff to t10 chest/gloves the raw mitigation and thus EH value of those items vs. the equivalent badge items are so small i i can't see the reason behind not getting the 4set bonus from tier10. In my case i'm loosing out on Pillars of Might which are quite nice. But as said i'm getting the 4p bonus + a more balanced overall piece of pants.