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View Full Version : Tanking Avoidance seems useful in ICC



Bladesong
12-09-2009, 12:47 AM
Ran the 10 man tonight - got through Marrowgar and some attempts on Lady Deathwhisper. On marrowgar 80% of the damage I took was from his cleave, a physical attack which I was able to both dodge and parry. Also, the giant adds as you head in also hit pretty hard.

Not that Marrowgar was particularly difficult, but avoidance would be much better than EH for that fight. I am looking forward to mixing and matching multiple gear sets again. Oh and Bonebreaker Scepter dropped :D

Kazeyonoma
12-09-2009, 02:28 AM
how would being more avoidance heavy help you? You're basically eating those hits almost guaranteed, so you dodge a few, th eheals were coming anyways, if a healer doesn't heal you, and you eat 2-3 of those your dead anyways.

Synapse
12-09-2009, 03:06 AM
To be fair, that's what I kept claiming since they came up with Icecrown Radiance: Neutered avoidance can be made useful.Saurfang specifically seems to favor a big avoidance set. He doesn't seem to hit for much and on the tank side all relevant abilities can be avoided.

krc
12-09-2009, 05:09 AM
Lord Marrogar doesn't really seem like an avoidance boss but like Synapse said the BP from Surfang could really favor avoidance along with the captain on the other ship in the Gunship Battle because of his debuff system.

But, really there is no need to use an avoidance and you can just stick to EH the safe choice. Maybe in heroic it will change and in an EH set you will die enough on avoidance favored bosses that it will be worth using an avoidance set.

Bladesong
12-09-2009, 10:27 AM
Kaz, I can currently survive two concurrent hits. The issue we had in the fight (10 man) was when a healer got impaled and the second healer had to heal the entire raid for a short bit. My thought was that taking fewer big hits would ease these periods and make the entire fight easier for the healers. Is my logic off? I am here to learn and share ideas :)

Kazeyonoma
12-09-2009, 10:37 AM
Sure, that's a novel idea, to think that you could control when "oh shit, my healer got impaled, i better dodge this next attack", the problem is you got lucky. Avoidance is about RNG, you can increase your odds with the RNG, but the simple fact is, in that scenario, your healer gets spiked, the other healer has to try to cover, and you tanks get saberlashed. You dodge, you live, you don't dodge, you take a big hit, healer tries to catch up, another saberlash, you're now in dangerzone, healer isn't catching you up, and the other healer is out and trying to catch up now too. another saberlash, you die.

It's not just about being able to take 3 consecutive hits without healing, it's creating a buffer so that in events like you described, even some small healing, will have let you lived a 3rd hit because you had more than required to survive 2 hits by a good margin.

Explain to me how "avoidance" would have reliably saved you there where more hp wouldn't have? Avoidance is useful, it's always useful, it smooths out damage intake, it always has, with lower levels because of chill, any avoidance gains now, seem like big ones but aside from picking up upgrades in a natural order, i don't foresee anyone stacking dodge gems for Marrowgar.

drae
12-09-2009, 11:19 AM
I agree with Kaz RE: marrowgar, however I believe for the gunship battle and DBS it may prove to be... useful if not more powerful.

For example on the gunship encounter. We used 10 stacks as the "Get the flux outta dodge" number. From my understanding you can avoid the application of the buff. So if your in heavy avoidance gear, you could possibly extend the boarding party's time on the opposite ship.

Same with DBS, if you can dodge the debuff application.

Darksend
12-09-2009, 11:38 AM
To be fair, that's what I kept claiming since they came up with Icecrown Radiance: Neutered avoidance can be made useful.Saurfang specifically seems to favor a big avoidance set. He doesn't seem to hit for much and on the tank side all relevant abilities can be avoided.

everyone says this and I still say it makes no sense. Why?

Kazeyonoma
12-09-2009, 11:45 AM
on DBS:
no matter what, you're gonna have a second tank up on the platform to swap when the application goes off. avoiding it once, or twice, or even 3 times in a row doesn't really HELP the encounter. all it does is extend how long before the other tank taunts. How does this "favor" an avoidance set?

on the gunship encounter, i thought he just got the buff because he was getting engaged...

Aggathon
12-09-2009, 09:26 PM
on DBS:
no matter what, you're gonna have a second tank up on the platform to swap when the application goes off. avoiding it once, or twice, or even 3 times in a row doesn't really HELP the encounter. all it does is extend how long before the other tank taunts. How does this "favor" an avoidance set?

on the gunship encounter, i thought he just got the buff because he was getting engaged...

I agree with you completely on your other post, HOWEVER.

Once DBS gets 100 BP he casts a debuff on someone, and every time you get hit, it does damage to that person also and increases his BP counter. So once you get to his soft enrage (he attacks harder and faster, but it matters before this point too) and you've got a bunch of people with that, every time you get hit he gains more and more BP. It is a situation that is very unqiue, and while in normal mode it doesn't really matter that much, in heroic decreasing your damage taken over the course of a fight to where you dodge 1 or 2 times more could actually mean the difference between a wipe and a kill because BP gets out of control. Oh and btw if someone with that debuff dies he heals for 5%, so lets say you get 6 people with the debuff, you get hit 4 times in a row, they all take 20k damage, healers can't keep up, they die, he gets healed for 30%.

And on normal again, gunship won't matter much probably, but on heroic I can see that buff getting really fierce. I wonder if it applies if you fully block an attack...

Tzobee
12-10-2009, 05:31 AM
I agree with you completely on your other post, HOWEVER.

Once DBS gets 100 BP he casts a debuff on someone, and every time you get hit, it does damage to that person also and increases his BP counter. So once you get to his soft enrage (he attacks harder and faster, but it matters before this point too) and you've got a bunch of people with that, every time you get hit he gains more and more BP. It is a situation that is very unqiue, and while in normal mode it doesn't really matter that much, in heroic decreasing your damage taken over the course of a fight to where you dodge 1 or 2 times more could actually mean the difference between a wipe and a kill because BP gets out of control. Oh and btw if someone with that debuff dies he heals for 5%, so lets say you get 6 people with the debuff, you get hit 4 times in a row, they all take 20k damage, healers can't keep up, they die, he gets healed for 30%..

While what you say is true I think the simplest solution lies within not letting him get off 5-6 marks rather than having your tanks socketting 20 def in every socket.

drae
12-10-2009, 05:46 AM
While what you say is true I think the simplest solution lies within not letting him get off 5-6 marks rather than having your tanks socketting 20 def in every socket.

You can stack avoidance from gear.. like by wearing the tier 9.5 bp vs. towering monstrosity and by swapping out normal satrina's for ony etc., without re-socketing everything. Even 5-8% extra avoidance could be enough... I agree that the best solution is to not let him get his BP high in the first place. Atm we have no idea how the encounter will work in heroic, it may be much more difficult to manage BP... leading to an advantage here. For normal 10m it's not required, but it's fun to speculate about heroic.




I'm pretty sure the opposing ships captain gets the buff when he connects a hit.. from Spiritus' guide.

Battle Fury
Melee, Instant, 20sec duration.
Increases all damage done by 7% [5%-10man]
This is a "debuff" placed on the tank. Every time the Enemy Captain connects with the recipient of Battle Fury, he will increase his damage done by 7%. .....
....Tank swapping is not an option because it is a buff that the Captain himself receives from a debuff placed on his target. A high avoidance tank is recommended for this task.


Which is why I believe an avoidance heavy set-up could help for tanking the opposing captain. In normal the rocketeers and mages are easy to handle, thus the boarding party has to spend relatively little time on the opposing boat... in heroic tho; it may be a viable strategy.

I don't think avoidance gear will be "required" for normal content, but for heroic I see two mechanics that could be managed with avoidance.

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 06:41 AM
While what you say is true I think the simplest solution lies within not letting him get off 5-6 marks rather than having your tanks socketting 20 def in every socket.

True, that was just an exaggeration, but he is going to get some off, and it will be beneficial to dodge rather than eat it for the debuff reason, not necessarily for "best way to tank" however I'm assuming that the healers won't really have to move, so in general it seems like once you've reached the min EHP mark for the soft enrage, gearing avoidance is simply the way to go on this fight.

Also I probably wouldn't gem defense because block wouldn't really help and it becomes better to gem parry/dodge than defense. If you have the spare pieces to do it, why not?

Okay now that the Stam Czar has just advocated avoidance for a fight, I'm going to go throw up now. =P

Crommi
12-10-2009, 09:40 AM
At least on normal mode, you don't need any specific avoidance gear for either Gunship battle or Saurfang. Your boarding party stays on just long enough to kill channeling mage and then retreats back to reset Battle Fury, no need to gimp your dps by having two tanks there. For Saurfang, your tanks just need to be awake and switch quickly to prevent healing, fast reactions help far more than avoidance set.

drae
12-10-2009, 10:02 AM
At least on normal mode, you don't need any specific avoidance gear for either Gunship battle or Saurfang. Your boarding party stays on just long enough to kill channeling mage and then retreats back to reset Battle Fury, no need to gimp your dps by having two tanks there. For Saurfang, your tanks just need to be awake and switch quickly to prevent healing, fast reactions help far more than avoidance set.

It's a matter of min/maxing in preparation for heroic mode.

True in normal mode your boarding party needs little time on the other boat.
True in normal mode BP doesn't stack quickly.

It's not a matter of IF WE NEED IT. It's a matter of WHICH IS BETTER.

I don't NEED an armor stacking set for Gormok, but does it massively reduce the inc. damage on me and greatly reduce my chance of getting gibbed. I CAN use my Stam set, but my armor set is BETTER.

Muffin Man
12-11-2009, 12:36 PM
While what you say is true I think the simplest solution lies within not letting him get off 5-6 marks rather than having your tanks socketting 20 def in every socket.

While I may not aggree with this hyperbole... the marks on heroic heal for 20% instead of 5%. And since I expect him to start hitting like a truck on heroic, you definitely need to lock down his mark applications first.

Zothor
12-11-2009, 01:34 PM
Honestly, there are a handful of places you can easily switch avoidance in without having to re-gem or re-enchant anything. The obvious one, and I know this may be somewhat scary, is trinkets. Just swapping my dual stam trinkets to double avoidance trinkets (Purified and the heroic 10 toc trinket) significantly slowed the overall accumulation of the debuff on gunship boss tanking. When 25 man rolled around the next day, I swapped in my 25Toc boots for my 10HToc boots, my block/avoidance gemmed/enchanted shoulders, and my offset lettings to break my set bonus because of all the extra avoidance... it was an ENORMOUS difference.

I don't think anyone is advocating giving up on your EH set. There are some times where nothing but EH will do. But having kept an avoidance set in the bank is helping me out tremendously on certain fight mechanics. We can call them gimmick fights all we want, but the more common they get the more you want it.

Zothor
12-11-2009, 01:41 PM
While I may not aggree with this hyperbole... the marks on heroic heal for 20% instead of 5%. And since I expect him to start hitting like a truck on heroic, you definitely need to lock down his mark applications first.

I think you guys are missing the point that avoidance slows his mark applications AS WELL as reducing the damage. The mark "ticks" when the tank takes a hit. As a matter of simple fact, it's currently and expected to continue to be impossible to kill him, especially on heroic, without taking a single mark. Once there is even one mark up in the raid each extra attack you avoid is less BP, which means less additional marks. Considering the avoidance both slows down the application of extra marks AND the duration that you have higher counts up, the function is inherently exponential. Avoidance is an enormously valuable way to lock down his mark applications.

Tzobee
12-11-2009, 01:41 PM
Also I probably wouldn't gem defense because block wouldn't really help and it becomes better to gem parry/dodge than defense. If you have the spare pieces to do it, why not?

Yes you are right, I didn't think about mechanic behind the ability there, ofcourse you want dodge/parry. My bad hehe.

And yea ofcourse on heroic it might be a very valid tactic, will be very interesting to see! And once we are actually there hopefully one will have quite a collection of 264 items to play around with :D

Muffin Man
12-11-2009, 04:38 PM
Maybe I don't understand how other fight works well enough, but I thought he only gained BP from hitting a tank with rune of blood? (and all his lovely instant spells and blood beast melee-ing of course).

In which case, the tanks just taunt of each other and there you go, no BP from tank smashing.

krc
12-11-2009, 06:32 PM
He has an ability called Mark of the Fallen Champion, when this ability up no matter if the tank has Rune Blood or not every time the tanks is made contact with the member/s with Mark of the Fallen Champion get hit for 5-6k damage.

This could be dangerous for his soft enrage especially if he kills one he gets healed for 5% of his health while continuing the soft enrage. It isn't going to make a whole lot of difference on normal but on heroic it could be very important to have high avoidance.

Wars
12-11-2009, 06:39 PM
Whenever the marked person takes damage from the mark splash damage(which is only done when a tank takes melee damage), the boss gains a BP.

What we did to prevent this...let the marked people die. Boom, soft-enrage reset. Took us 3 tries post-that.

Avoidance is very helpful on this if you are going to one-tank the encounter, which is also a very viable strategy.

Muffin Man
12-11-2009, 07:03 PM
I see, wasn't aware of that extra BP generation source.

Almost a chicken and the egg problem then isn't it?

You don't really need to go avoidance heavy until marks are up. Ordinarily I would be skeptical of it being impossible to get DS down before he marks someone but the achievements doesn't say no-marks, it says no more than 1 (we got it last night with 1 mark to my surprise). So maybe it really isn't possible.

However, we didn't get that mark until very late in the fight and he ended with I think 40 BP or so?

This is 10 man, so beast kiting is much easier. But I imagine the same could be done on 25 man.

Of course, if you need to be avoidance heavy at the end of the fight but not the start, there's no reason not to. I just don't think it's so easy to squeeze out 5% more avoidance when we're at 50% avoidance DRs already, unless I'm wrong and Chill of the Throne also pushes you back down the DR curve on dodge (which I'm fairly confident it doesn't).

Wars
12-11-2009, 07:28 PM
Muffin I believe the Mark mark(punnnn) limit is <5 for the achieve. At least for 25man.

I'm using the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50352(I and the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47735 and I'm sitting at 8% avoidance in my DBS tank gear which is basically my balanced set.

Tzobee
12-12-2009, 04:29 AM
Well on 25man the fight can become quite chaotic once he enrages and starts slapping 30% faster, that is generally when people with marks starts dying and if one of those guys happens to be a healer then its pretty much game over since it becomes a chain reaction (much like anub'arak heroic).

The fight is alot more complex on 25man (done both) but it is very funny!

Aggathon
12-12-2009, 08:09 AM
Whenever the marked person takes damage from the mark splash damage(which is only done when a tank takes melee damage), the boss gains a BP.

What we did to prevent this...let the marked people die. Boom, soft-enrage reset. Took us 3 tries post-that.

Avoidance is very helpful on this if you are going to one-tank the encounter, which is also a very viable strategy.

What another poster said was that in heroic if someone with mark of the fallen champion dies, then he heals for 20%, this makes the "let them die" (and btw when I say that in my head I think of Kirk talking about the Klingons in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country) strategy not viable imo.

Muffin Man
12-13-2009, 04:11 AM
Muffin I believe the Mark mark(punnnn) limit is <5 for the achieve. At least for 25man.

I'm using the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50352(I (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50352%28I) and the Glyph of Indomitability - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47735) and I'm sitting at 8% avoidance in my DBS tank gear which is basically my balanced set.

After I saw this I went back and looked at the 10 man achievement which is actually less than 3, so even more generous than I thought.

Makes the encounter even more interesting to me. You would think that for the achievement they would demand perfect play so to speak, but allowing you to get marked makes me think that they don't think it's possible to keep them off the raid.

But then again it's pretty tough to manage having lots of people marked, short of letting them die, so it just seems like Blizz expects this to be a messy fight all around.

Also, I think you're missing a digit in front of your avoidance number =p.

I'm sitting around 34% avoidance (guestimating how much miss I actually have).

Anyways, back to why I think this is so interesting is I wonder what exactly Blizzards expectations here are. Usually you can look at the achievements and see what's going to make the fight harder. Like ToC you could tell that snobolds and Jaraxxus adds were going to make things difficult for your raid and you wanted them dead. This one is the converse though and encourages you to do the encounter better, like killing the twins in under 3 minutes. But presumably you can complete the encounter without getting the achievement, but from our experience it doesn't seem possible to keep that many marked people alive anyways, but I suppose they could die and you go on your merry way and slowly kill DBS. We just wiped though when we started losing marked people since on 10 man unless it was melee dps, it was a kiter (important) or a healer (also important). So surviving multiple marks and losing marked people feels rangy, but maybe that's how Blizzard expected initial kills to happen. It still seems odd though, kind of like how Razorscales enrage timer was initially so short that you had to get A Quick Shave just to beat the encounter.

Bihn
12-13-2009, 03:02 PM
Makes the encounter even more interesting to me. You would think that for the achievement they would demand perfect play so to speak, but allowing you to get marked makes me think that they don't think it's possible to keep them off the raid.

But then again it's pretty tough to manage having lots of people marked, short of letting them die, so it just seems like Blizz expects this to be a messy fight all around.

Mark of the Fallen Champion is the whole point of the fight and the only reason it is difficult. It's something we simply have to deal with. Granted, we were at ~15 percent when our first Mark went out in ten man, but we are overgeared for 10 man ICC. And Saurfang gains BP much less quickly in ten man.

The bottom line is this: there are several sources of BP available to Saurfang. The only ones that can be controlled by proper play are the Blood Beasts meleeing raiders, and tanks taunting at the appropriate time.
Blood Nova and Blood Boil are granting him unavoidable BP for the fight's duration. Apparently, you can use a Disc Priest to negate any BP gain, but I imagine this will be nerfed/fixed.
Mark of the Fallen Champion related BP can be minimized (but not completely negated) through avoidance stacking.


Getting 5 or more BPs makes the end of the fight more difficult, but it doesn't mean you have to wipe it. A number of guilds didn't get the I've Gone and Made a Mess achievement for 25 man and still clocked earlier kills.

Regill
12-13-2009, 10:22 PM
Clearly from looking at the icecrown loot lists, which I know are data mined and I'll not link, you all know where to look, there is EH gear (+armor pieces) which is many of the badge pieces, and avoidance gear (lots of def / dodge / parry) which for warriors is more like the t10 set and other offset pieces.

Obviously the ideal is to collect both sets. With the problem being that you are often sharing loot with another plate tank, making such a collection very time consuming.

So really the question is, which set do you focus on first, especially with your badges. For me, its gonna be the EH / armor set. Now that is partially because I know the paladin tank I play alongside favors avoidance more than I do in his gemming, so he can tank avoidance bosses, while I stack EH like a maniac for bosses of that style.

Assuming it even matters, so far no boss has stressed tank survivability. We stretched Muradin Bronzebeard up to 40 stacks of his debuff fairly easily on our first gunship kill, with judicious use of chain cooldowns. Then again heroic mode will probably bring back the heavy tank damage we've grown accustomed too.

So far, barring a gimmick which favors avoidance, every raid instance has focused on EH first, go with what avoidance comes with your gear.

Regarding Saurfang, I think that gearing for a worst case situation is a mistake. If he has 5 or 6 marks up in heroic mode, you are probably going to wipe anyways to the mistakes which resulted in such an occurrence. Better to focus on EH as always, to create a buffer for situations when healers are stressed or moving. Get the raid to execute properly and keep blood power gains at a minimum that way. Depending on the health of the adds, and his health, I expect the issue with heroic saurfang will be the dps check and proper positioning.

Aggathon
12-13-2009, 11:23 PM
If the healers are having to move on saurfang then the dps are doing something wrong. A mark is going to go up eventually, and once it does every hit increases the time to the next one and the stacks can add up quickly. Now it's not much of an issue on normal, but I have a feeling it might be a necessity, but we'll see when it actually comes out.

Muffin Man
12-14-2009, 02:00 AM
So really the question is, which set do you focus on first, especially with your badges. For me, its gonna be the EH / armor set. Now that is partially because I know the paladin tank I play alongside favors avoidance more than I do in his gemming, so he can tank avoidance bosses, while I stack EH like a maniac for bosses of that style.

Assuming it even matters, so far no boss has stressed tank survivability. We stretched Muradin Bronzebeard up to 40 stacks of his debuff fairly easily on our first gunship kill, with judicious use of chain cooldowns. Then again heroic mode will probably bring back the heavy tank damage we've grown accustomed too.

So far, barring a gimmick which favors avoidance, every raid instance has focused on EH first, go with what avoidance comes with your gear.

I'm not too sure what to expect. Deathwhisper is about tanking the adds really, she's not hard to handle herself if you are solid with interrupts. Airships isn't that bad either since you should always have a cooldown available on *one* of the tanks when you have to jump over.

It looks like there's going to be at least one other fight where all you handle are adds (the green dragon) and I'm not too familiar with the rest of the locked fights.

That said though, I fully expect Marrowgar to destroy tanks on heroic like Northrend Beasts did/does. Arthas I also fully expect to hit like a convoy of trucks on normal (I'll be a little disappointed if he doesn't actually). So EH will be the way I plan as well.

Regill
12-14-2009, 12:27 PM
That said though, I fully expect Marrowgar to destroy tanks on heroic like Northrend Beasts did/does. Arthas I also fully expect to hit like a convoy of trucks on normal (I'll be a little disappointed if he doesn't actually). So EH will be the way I plan as well.

Marrowgar could get ugly on heroic, depending on how high they tune the saberlash damage. Given that not much else goes on, fires are easily avoided, spikes are easily dpsed, tuning marrow to massive tank damage makes sense. Can't have the healers getting bored, amirite?

If I don't die in the first 5 seconds of tanking Arthas heroic I will be disappointed. If we are taking hits from frostmourne, it better hurt! That's exactly what happened the first time I pulled Algalon, dead near instantly.