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View Full Version : Tanking Better gear=less threat



Mughalkhan
12-08-2009, 04:16 AM
I'm a prot war u can armory me name Mughalkhan on Korgath.Problem is that shortly after i got my Epic achievement i had 300 hit,544 defense and 29 expertise.Well now i have 232 and 245 item lvl gear and what i need most has droped down.Defense is ok but expertise is 10 i'm not even capped.Threat is my issue.Had to change my talent build also because of that cause i didnt have Vigilance and because of that threat making loss had to get that talent just to 'steal' some threat from a rogue or from the most making threat dps.I need to use at every raid the expertise elixir because if not i'm kicked out.If anyone has any tips what i can do pls write.
P.S. I know what u might say 'gem and enchant for expertise' well cant either cause guild wants more hp then anything and even if i'm in pug they dont want me tanking with 32k hp.

Bung
12-08-2009, 04:47 AM
I cant see your gear cause the armory is down. If you are just getting the epic achievement than your gear probably has a ways to go. Get the level 245 helm. It has a nice amount of expertise on it. Now that 3.3 has hit just run heroics for badges and upgrade your gear. Being expertise capped is more important than hit for tanks. For multiple mobs consider using glyphs of cleave and sunder armor. I can't see your spec either but a typical 15/3/53 works well. On a side note, stacking stamina isn't everything. Your armor and avoidance stats are important too. Most new tanks have no choice but to gem defense in order to reach the 540 cap. With better gear gemming defense becomes unecessary and those gems can be replaced with stam and stam/exp gems. Having 32k unbuffed HP and being exp capped is fairly easy to reach with better gear.

gabbu
12-08-2009, 04:50 AM
Can you link your armory please (probably will be down today), but short and sweet answer is, follow the steps below,

1. Make sure your priorities are right, SS>Rev>Dev stuff
2. Use deep wounds build
3. Use Vigilance on high threat DPS
4. If still have issues, use Glyph of Vigilance and Glyph of devastate.

Further can only be added after I see your gear and spec

Sirloinsteak
12-08-2009, 05:50 AM
expertise elixir and rhinoliciuos worm steaks, just get ur expertise as close to 50 as you possibly can, dw bout hit for threat ... i run bugger all, no dps can even come close and i can pull off other tanks while im off tanking (i can easily pull threat back off a tank that has just taunted gormock)

vine
12-08-2009, 06:14 AM
Why don't people just link their armoury profile instead of asking us to look it up?

kingymech
12-08-2009, 06:16 AM
expertise elixir and rhinoliciuos worm steaks, just get ur expertise as close to 50 as you possibly can,

50? does it make that much more difference going over 26 that much?

Sirloinsteak
12-08-2009, 06:29 AM
50? does it make that much more difference going over 26 that much?


it seems to ... Ive tested it in game (haven't done any real math) and i seem to be untouchable in threat the more expertise i get ... the closer you get to 50 (i think you need to get it to 12% to completely remove parries) it starts to remove parry from the table ie. your attacks cannot be dodged or parried therefore all your attacks hit the boss = threat

my hit sits around 120-150 in raids and i cant even remember the last time i seen a miss from my toon

gabbu
12-08-2009, 07:12 AM
50? does it make that much more difference going over 26 that much?
Yes, and this is why Expertise is always better than Hit - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/07/expertise-is-always-better-than-hit/)

disregard_lc
12-08-2009, 07:13 AM
It was said earlier this week on another post that expertise is extremely important for warriors compared to other tank classes (paladins, etc.). Your guild needs to realize that if you want to hold aggro, you need to temporarily sacrifice some health for expertise. As your gear improves, you can gradually go back to adding more health again, since most tank pieces have considerable amounts of expertise on them, eliminating the need to gem them.

uglybbtoo
12-08-2009, 08:27 AM
And its a deliberate tact from what GC said and will continue.

They don't want one BIS set of gear so pieces with threat stats won't have the best EH stats. It creates a bit more mix and match on gear.

luv2tank
12-08-2009, 08:37 AM
ehh...im just over the soft cap of expertise(33 currently) and I have about 66 hit. I have no issues at all w/ my threat-every piece i have is ilevel 245. Not sure if getting as close to 50 is necessary, just stay above the soft cap and you should be fine.

Going forward-what are you prioritizing in your rotation and spec's to adjust to this loss in threat you have? Perhaps you aren't HS'ing enough....are your glyphs where they need to be in terms of threat generation?

Mughalkhan
12-08-2009, 10:06 AM
Why don't people just link their armoury profile instead of asking us to look it up? Just posted and the armory is down so i cant link, as soon as it comes up i'll link

Mughalkhan
12-08-2009, 10:25 AM
Can you link your armory please (probably will be down today), but short and sweet answer is, follow the steps below,

1. Make sure your priorities are right, SS>Rev>Dev stuff
2. Use deep wounds build
3. Use Vigilance on high threat DPS
4. If still have issues, use Glyph of Vigilance and Glyph of devastate.

Further can only be added after I see your gear and spec

1. I'm doing that
2. I'm builed like that
3. I'm using that
4. I have the devastate one but not the vigilance

Well its hard guys because lets see in some pug raids there are 2 or 3 dps that crit so much that i cant keep up with the threat.They dont watch the thret meter so they just stand there and dps i lose threat and raid wipes so 'tanks fault' for the wipe.I MT ony 25 and some dps just start right away so its hard to get the starting amount of threat.Its not only about us tanks.I need to get capped for the stupid dps that dont watch the threat meter.
Had the sword from htoc i dont remember its name and now i have the the one from ony.The one in ony is item lvl 232 and the htoc one is 219 but it has expertise.The one from ony just procs once in a while with 1400 armor and 100def.The armor i need but the def i dont.Everybody i asked they said that 'cant u just look the item lvl to compare the weapons but i dissagree sometimes a lower lvl is better but here comes another thing:ppl just dont ask ur spec and stats they ask for gearscore damn like that matters.Anyway best thing is to shut up and do some raids once in a while to get that 245 helm and maybe then i wont have so much trouble.

Ty guys for your tips

disregard_lc
12-08-2009, 11:14 AM
All the i245 gear in the world won't help you if the ranged DPS are going bonkers before you're even in melee range.

Unless it's an issue with your rotation....? Are you losing threat at the very beginning (first 15 seconds) of a boss encounter, or is it randomly throughout? Reason I ask is because if it's randomly throughout, it sounds like you may be missing an important step of your rotation.

Also, what classes tend to be pulling the mob off you? Most classes have some type of threat-reducing ability. Paladins have Blessing of Salvation, Warlocks can Soul Shatter, etc. This is of course just guessing since we can't view your armory page.

Mughalkhan
12-08-2009, 12:24 PM
All the i245 gear in the world won't help you if the ranged DPS are going bonkers before you're even in melee range.

Unless it's an issue with your rotation....? Are you losing threat at the very beginning (first 15 seconds) of a boss encounter, or is it randomly throughout? Reason I ask is because if it's randomly throughout, it sounds like you may be missing an important step of your rotation.

Also, what classes tend to be pulling the mob off you? Most classes have some type of threat-reducing ability. Paladins have Blessing of Salvation, Warlocks can Soul Shatter, etc. This is of course just guessing since we can't view your armory page.

Nope at firs i'm fine i get something like 50-80k threat fast because ss is up then revenge cause i just clicked sblock and dev.It starts after 20 or 30 seconds ussualy its a lock or mage that gets a lot of tps and they keep on pulling threat and i just have to taunt to equal theyr thret and ss and revenge and devastate and then taunt again and the same ss revenge devastate.Its hard i cant even pay attencion to anything else.

Mughalkhan
12-08-2009, 01:24 PM
here i am finaly now u guys can see what i'm talking about

Gen4200
12-08-2009, 01:26 PM
Nope at firs i'm fine i get something like 50-80k threat fast because ss is up then revenge cause i just clicked sblock and dev.It starts after 20 or 30 seconds ussualy its a lock or mage that gets a lot of tps and they keep on pulling threat and i just have to taunt to equal theyr thret and ss and revenge and devastate and then taunt again and the same ss revenge devastate.Its hard i cant even pay attencion to anything else.

Are you rage dumping via HS? I did a VOA pug last night and despite my 4Kish gear score I had no problems staying well head of the DPS. I have HS tied to my revenge so I just spam that key to queue it up.

Mughalkhan
12-08-2009, 01:26 PM
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Mughalkhan&gn=The+Goonies

Ulosthegame
12-08-2009, 02:11 PM
If you're worried about health, drop the Ony trinket and pick EoG or SiS, maybe a brewmaster one if you have it lying around.
drop your 10def/15 stam ones, you're 10 over the cap and could replace them with 30 stam. 16 def to cape is kinda meh too, drop it if you can stay capped without it.

Not sure what your problem is, sitting at 225 hit and 9 exp, I don't get touched.

kingymech
12-08-2009, 02:24 PM
Yes, and this is why Expertise is always better than Hit - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/07/expertise-is-always-better-than-hit/)

well i never knew that, shame im not gemmed for hit and its on my gear instead.

drae
12-09-2009, 08:17 AM
Discretion when selecting your gear is important. There are a certain set of shoulders that while i245 are not very well suited for a warrior. I take the honorbound helm over the tier one because of the expertise, same with feverish dedication legs, and tower monstrosity BP. I'm rocking 45 expertise plus in my standard gear, and maintaining about 22 hit. (only piece with hit is the throwing weapon).


Remember that when it comes to warrior tanking, 90% of our standard rotation is avoidable. This means that expertise becomes extremely valuable.

Expertise and hit provide a very similar result, but go about it in different ways. Both "Increase the chance an attack will land against your target". While hit effects every skill, expertise only effects those which are avoidable. Obviously before the expertise soft cap expertise is better, but what about after the soft cap and before the hard cap? Expertise is still better. As long as your attack is avoidable they both increase the chance your attack will land by the same amount. However, expertise still reduces the chance of parry gibs, while hit does not.

Hit is obviously critical for those abilities which are not avoidable. Stuff like taunt, demo shout, thunder clap, shockwave. All of these (among others) are only effected by hit, not expertise. Many have work arounds like the taunt glyph, or demo shout being applied by your ret pally and TC applied by your DK etc.

The trick is understanding when hit is important... can't miss an interrupt? Get hit. Need to push insane TPS on Hodir? Expertise.

Regardless, gear is not nearly as important for generating threat as rotation priority and spamming heroic strike. Heroic strike is a good 38% of my threat on a good night... that's insane. Many people like the heroic strike on the mouse wheel, I prefer it on my "back" button on my mouse. Either way, find ways to make spamming it easier, and you'll do it more.

Outside of that there are rotations that will allow you to maximize your sword and board procs in order to push out more shield slams. Devastate glyph also makes a noticeable difference, but these final two points are only meant to refine and maximize your threat as needed.

drae
12-09-2009, 08:27 AM
I had a chance to examine your armory.

I would advise losing some hit rating and picking up more expertise. Like you need at least 26 expertise, the expertise soft cap is a serious priority after 540 defense (which is super easy to achieve today).

I would upgrade your legs asap. Block is a terrible mechanic for warriors at end game. Then I would upgrade your helmet, ideally the honorbound helm for 75 triumph badges. Also each 10 defense rating hybrid gem is worth about 2.5 defense skill. I would recommend getting rid of all of them. Don't gem for socket bonus'. Use expertise purple gems if you need to reach the expertise soft cap, otherwise use straight stam. Socket bonus' are only worthwhile if they award 9+ stam.



Finally with the amount of hit rating you have, your taunt glyph is totally a wasted glyph spot. With your current hit rating I would use a devastate glyph in that location. And I would lose the 4/5 cruelty and put those 4 points into imp TC. (aoe tanking) and incite, 10% crit on those attacks is worth FAR more then 4% across all attacks. Just doing this final paragraphs suggestions should net you ~5% increase in TPS if not more.

Griff
12-09-2009, 12:02 PM
What Drae said - also:

+20 defense to shield>+18 stam
+275 health to chest>+10 stats
Armsman for your mittens>+18 stam

Mughalkhan
12-20-2009, 09:30 AM
Well as u can see now i have better gear and that 75triumph helm helped a lot and also i got a new axe so as a war it gives me 15 expertise just for using that.Ty again

Mughalkhan
12-20-2009, 09:31 AM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&n=Mughalkhan)

Badfactory
12-20-2009, 11:20 AM
Well, I think your threat problem is related to your rotation and your glyphs. In my opinion, there is no better threat glyph than devastate. Think about it -- three seconds into the fight, you already have 5 sunders on the target, which by itself is enough to keep threat for a good 25-30 seconds (and that's if you just stood there -- trust me, I've tried it). Now, the other bonuses that brings -- you start the fight by BR, Charge, Taunt, Devastate x3 (all of this as you position the boss mob). You should in most cases have 5 sunders on the boss by the time you have the standard back-to-raid position in place. What this allows you to do is take your eyes off omen and recount for a few seconds so you can start using your normal threat rotation. I usually go HS, Rend, HS, TC, HS, Shockwave, HS, Conc. Blow, HS, Devastate to reapply sunders, HS, Rend, HS, Shockwave....that exact rotation. Keep in mind that I'm spamming shield slam and revenge whenever sword and board/enrage proc, as well as keeping my mitigation value high with SB.

If you don't have the devastate glyph, you are generating so much less TPS, it's not even funny. You've got to use five global cooldowns (not to mention the rage cost) instead of three, which prevents you from starting your standard rotation by two more than you should -- preventing you from using two more threat spells as you struggle to build threat against the dps, which will start to open up when the boss is in the correct position.

In my opinion, the devastate glyph is just absolutely essential to any single boss raid encounter. Also, the Last Stand and Commanding Shout (glyph of command) glyphs will be much, much more useful to you than cleaving/charge. The charge glyph is actually pretty worthless overall in PvE and is probably focused more towards PvP. Not that these are threat related, but yeah.

Switch out that hit gem for defense/stam. Your gear in general has a ways to go, but that's a given -- threat doesn't come down to gear. I've never had a boss yanked off me by a dps midfight (with the exception of retards on Onyxia. If they pull her off of you before she's even in position, that isn't your fault). As the guys before me were saying, thunderclap and heroic strike are your threat bread and butter for the beginning of the fight (with devastate as well, obviously).

Here's my armory if you have any questions.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Haomarush&cn=Badfactory&gn=Ethos)

Kherberos
12-20-2009, 01:48 PM
I realize there are some ,, mmm empty spaces in itemization when your progressing through totc (10man especially ) Where you just either have no hit / have hit or have buckets of exp./no expertise.
Personally I went through togc25 with 22 hit rating and between 45-50 expertise.
Gearing through ICC now and looking @ future possible upgrades I will have about 240 hit and 20 expertise from gear. (but also about 2.500 hp more and 3-4% more dodge/parry so instead of gemming dodge/sta ill be gemming exp/sta once more for reds to get +9/12 bonus)

But in the end , the higher my gear gets the MORE TPS im doing relatively.
Dont forget that higher ilvl gear usually comes with alot more STR on it.
Basically ALL your moves scale with STR.
Ive seen some people in this thread speak about rotation , and mentioning revenge. Short answer = stop using revenge unless you are low rage or cant use any other move . A devastate (especially with glyph of devastate which is a MUST HAVE) does more threat than a 2/2 impr revenge specced revenge. Basically all you need to do these days is spam devastate + SS on cooldown + proc and keep heroic strike queued . Just doing that nets me close to 10k tps 25man raid buffed and when you have tricks/MD's running you'll see some ridiculous high numbers. (and ofc thunderclap and all that stuff weaved in if needed. )
Someone also said armsman on gloves > 18sta? You know thats like 180tps when your doing 9000 already? Armsman gets better the more tps you do and its worthless once you reach 8-9k tps/s. And for the rest its 10parry rating. Basically you can say its 10 parry vs 18 sta. Its definately 18 sta > 10 parry.

Rhetorica
12-20-2009, 02:02 PM
whats expertise cap ?

Kherberos
12-20-2009, 02:48 PM
56 iirc due to like 1-3 bosses ingame having that much parry orso. Basically most bosses have varying amounts of parry chance which is how they try to balance them a bit in difficulty.
Personally anything above 30 is pretty decent . In ICC exp is a bit more rare so having 30ish is quite good and you can gem/food for more . (But rly you should have 0 issues about threat anyway at this point)

Aggathon
12-20-2009, 03:36 PM
There was some misinformation in this thread. Thank you for correcting a lot of it though Drae, great post.

As far as expertise in general, it's not a huge need, up until 26 it is better than hit, and most high end tanks atm have less than 80 hit, I run with 60, I know some people that only run with 22. Threat generally isn't a huge deal. Also 56 expertise is the parry cap (14%).

The biggest thing you can do is to change your spec!!! 1 point in deep wounds does not cut it, and frankly I'm surprised no one else picked that up. Drop 3 points in shield spec, put 1 into focused rage and 2 into deep wounds.

Also, try and pick up either the legs off of Maly25 or the ToC25 Lord Jaraxxus legs. They have a lot of expertise on them and are much better than the legs you are using now.

Also: follow people's advice on rotations, shield slam is your bestest friend, followed closely by devastate if you are glyphed for it.

For other gear upgrades and advice on all of the afformentioned topics and gearing, I made a guide that covers that and has lots of links to a bunch of other really good posts made by people in the TS community. http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/60155-aggs-prot-war-tanking-guide.html