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View Full Version : Tanking threat hold vs surviving, which to chant/gem?



defence
12-07-2009, 12:33 PM
A few weeks ago, I was introduced to this website. I started reading all about tanking, and I found out that I was way below the soft cap. Freaking out, I started replacing all my blues with purples and reds, sacrificing stamina chants for expertise, farming for gear in ToC where I heard there were more gear with expertise, etc.

I then advertise in trade that I need a jewelcrafter to cut a dreadstone (or whatever that orange gem is called). A jewelcrafter links me his prof, and I didn't like what he had because he didn't have the defense/expertise gem (I'm 2 defense rating away from capping). He called me a noob, that he has tanked 10m and 25m ToC and ToG without being hit/exp capped, and to focus mainly on stamina.

Now I'm being confused. Here, I read that I should get my expertise *at least* to soft cap, and another tank is telling me otherwise. Who is in the right? Should I worry more about threat hold (which, since although I didn't know about expertise, I always had my hit capped, and thus didn't lose aggro very often in heroics) or should I worry about survival and stack dodge and stam (parry to a lesser extent)

Thank you

Harmacy
12-07-2009, 12:42 PM
It depends on your class, and what you're tanking, and how much threat your dps puts out. If your DPS outgears you by a mile, you might need more threat enchants and gems.

I know for prot pallies, both strength and block value are better threat stats than hit and expertise. I don't know the exact numbers for other classes.

Many tanks don't bother with the hit cap or expertise cap (ToC and ToGC gear is very light on hit and very heavy on expertise, and few tanks bother getting their hit back up again and simply opt to glyph their taunt).

If your threat is fine, though, I would focus on survivability. Defense to 540, activate your meta, then stamina and armor all the way.

defence
12-07-2009, 12:47 PM
Come to think of it, before I knew about the expertise soft cap, I always had trouble in heroics with dps that clearly overgeared me. No matter what I did, arms warriors and locks kept on breaking my aggro, even when I vigilanced them. It doesn't happen as often anymore when I started gemming myself up

StrangeTank
12-07-2009, 02:47 PM
I went thru the same problem, i was low on threat and needed to gem Str to bring it up. After posting here tho i had several ppl tell me to change up my spec some to get Crusade. After that i was able to go back to Stam gems, which is ideally the way you want to go. I don't know War specs at all tho, you might post a "how's my spec" thread and see if you can change a couple points to fix the threat issue. I've never needed to worry about Hit/Expertise, whats on my gear is there, i have the glyph, and it's never been an issue. But that's a pally tank talkin.

Griff
12-07-2009, 03:21 PM
Having at least enough expertise to hit the soft cap is pretty important for threat, however a dead tank produces very little threat and you've sacrificed a lot of your ability to stay upright and mobile in your pursuit of threat. You can be successful in the content you are geared for without being at the expertise soft cap.

Enchant your chest for defense.

Once you can spare the defense, swap your meta for %2 armor value

Swap that resilence gem out for a pve gem.

Save your badges for the non-tier triumph badge hat (headplate of the honorbound for allies), it'll largely fix your expertise issues.

Insahnity
12-07-2009, 03:35 PM
Post an armory Link, we can make specific recommendations.

Blue (and blue derivatives, like green/purple) are your friends. There is never a need to gem for red or orange, and it sounds like you are well out of the need for pure yellow, which should only be for pure defense if you are really behind for some reason.

You should never enchant for hit or expertise (at best, your weapon can take an accuracy, which is hit/crit), but gemming for it is acceptable if you can't get enough from your gear naturally. Always gem in this priority:

Meta Gem: This ONLY unless you can justify something else (which you would be hard pressed)
Yellow: 20 defense until 540 defense (you better be in blue gear if you are using this!). Between enchants and badge gear, you should never have issues reaching 540 defense.
Blue: 30 stamina. If you gem exclusively for this and you don't have threat issues, this is normal.
Prismatic: +10 stats in one spot, generally a non-blue socket (and not in your prismatic belt buckle slot), and only if you are not behind on defense/expertise/hit softcaps.
Purple: 10 expertise/15 stamina (if pursuing a worthwhile stamina socket bonus, or activating your meta)
Green: 10 Defense/15 stamina (if pursuing a worthwhile stamina socket bonus)
Green: 10 Hit/15 stamina (if pursuing a worthwhile stamina socket bonus)
Purple: 10 Strength/15 Stamina (if pursuing a worthwhile stamina socket bonus, or activating your meta)

defence
12-08-2009, 06:40 AM
Having at least enough expertise to hit the soft cap is pretty important for threat, however a dead tank produces very little threat and you've sacrificed a lot of your ability to stay upright and mobile in your pursuit of threat. You can be successful in the content you are geared for without being at the expertise soft cap.

Enchant your chest for defense.

Once you can spare the defense, swap your meta for %2 armor value

Swap that resilence gem out for a pve gem.

Save your badges for the non-tier triumph badge hat (headplate of the honorbound for allies), it'll largely fix your expertise issues.

Lol!! You know, I used the completely opposite argument in my pursuit of threat (I can be all survival, but if the boss one shoots the healer it won't matter). Seeing the opposing argument kinda gives it a big flaw though (the chance of boss losing aggro and going to a dps is moderate, but very low on heals unless I'm a horrible tank). Thanks for the insight.

The resilience gem is because my defense is 538, and trying to swap it for a pve gem is what got me to be called noob and got me sent here.



You should never enchant for hit or expertise (at best, your weapon can take an accuracy, which is hit/crit), but gemming for it is acceptable if you can't get enough from your gear naturally.I don't know, an expertise chant, in my view, is not that different from armsband (parry is laughable because of DR and expertise does the same thing as 2% increase threat)

Actually, another argument I put out in regards to chanting and gemming expertise is AoE threat. Warriors have the hardest time in AoE threat hold, constantly tapping each mob and spamming TC and shockwave (and cleave if glyphed). Best to give the mobs high threat so that my bad AoE tanking doesn't make the mobs rip off me.

Xianth
12-08-2009, 06:53 AM
Don't get the soft cap confused with the hard cap for expertise. As a warrior the soft cap (26) is something you should always aim be above, you gain a lot of increased threat (double per rating point compared to hit on your main threat moves) and it also reduced your chance to cause a parry hasted hit, which in turn is a very nice survival gain.

Xianth
12-08-2009, 06:59 AM
I don't know, an expertise chant, in my view, is not that different from armsband (parry is laughable because of DR and expertise does the same thing as 2% increase threat)


I wouldn't worry about the enchant, for starters it's under budget (15 rating compared to hit enchant worth 20 rating) and the fact that if you need threat armsman gives you 2% more which is greater than 15 expertise rating (roughly 0.5% or 1% if under soft cap).

A general rule of thumb is that i always socket exp/stam in the red sockets to get stamina bonuses, that way you don't lose out on much stam but gain a lot of expertise which is excellent if you're under the soft cap but still useful if you're over it.

drae
12-09-2009, 07:40 AM
Expertise is really a lot like avoidance, you have to be conscious of it (google Tanking Tips Expertise is always better then hit for more info) but more then enough comes on gear if you pick the right pieces.

Gem for stam in general.

Post an armory link and we can offer more exact suggestions.

defence
12-09-2009, 08:53 AM
my armory should be under my name. If that's giving you trouble though, here's the direct link.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Winterhoof&n=Defense)

drae
12-09-2009, 10:19 AM
If I were in your shoes I would:

-enchant 22 defense on my chest and get the 2% extra armor and 32 stam meta. This will net you 26 stam, armor, and 1 defense; while you lose 5% SBV (meh) and 8 to all stats BUT stamina.
-Replace as many defense gems with stamina gems as possible while still maintaining 540 def. Use def/stam hybrids if req.
-Use one expertise / stam gem to activate the meta, don't worry about superseding the expertise soft cap until you can do so without gems... if you must gem to reach the soft cap (above and beyond the one to activate your meta, which should be in a red + blue set of sockets and coupled with a stamina gem to recieve a socket bonus.) then use purple gems.


Basically look for the expertise softcap, the defense cap, and socket the rest for stam. Don't worry about hit beyond what's on your gear.

That's what I would do.

Griff
12-09-2009, 12:08 PM
Unlike most DPS classes, tanking is really about balancing your stats to be successful for a given encounter and you are right in that you shouldn't ever need to worry about healing aggro while boss tanking.

As far as your defense issues - you should be able to resolve all of your expertise/defense problems with some badge-purchasable gear. Badges of triumph are easy to pick up now and you should be striving for the Headplate of the Honorbound and the Valor badge ring at the very least.

Finally, parry isn't as laughable as it used to be and as the other poster noted, 2% is better than 15% expertise.



Lol!! You know, I used the completely opposite argument in my pursuit of threat (I can be all survival, but if the boss one shoots the healer it won't matter). Seeing the opposing argument kinda gives it a big flaw though (the chance of boss losing aggro and going to a dps is moderate, but very low on heals unless I'm a horrible tank). Thanks for the insight.