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View Full Version : 10man TOC.... Tank dies, it's tanks fault.... -_-



Surcqura
12-06-2009, 03:43 AM
So today I was running a PUG mostly a guild run with a few random pugs.
walk into Toc 10man Buff up I had 42.2k HP buffed and our pally MT had 41.4k buffed.

Start the fight everything is fine pally (the MT, coz the grp leader hates DK tanks as MT) Gets the boss, tanks him though 4 stacks of impale then we switch.
I start to tank the boss and staiight away i here my elert for low HP. I keep tanking the boss get to 3 stacks or impale and then die and then healers start to blame me for the whipe. ( witch i don't get how it's "my" fault)

Do it a few more times and this time the other tank dies and then i die and somhow it;s my fault again not healers.

Next part get to worms, and then we both die and we both get the blame, not the god dam healers.......

So was this my fault or the healers?

Am i undergeard for 10 toc? The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostwolf&n=Surcqura)

Do i need to change my spec? Why was i getting blamed??/ Anything please!!!!

BTW I actully think in p1 the dps wernt getting the adds of the healers so thats why we were dropping, but i seriously dont no.... because it's NEVER EVER the dps fault. Always tanks....

Martie
12-06-2009, 03:51 AM
Unless you have a log to browse through, I honestly can't tell.

There are ways to die there that is your own damn fault - but it's not the common cause of tank death there.

Looking through your gear, I think you are undergeared for ToC tanking, and not having any profession bonuses is a bad thing.
One likely reason for getting blamed is that the other people are used to better-geared tanks, or that there were moron healers/dps that stood in the fire and sucked up healer time, but again, I can't say without seeing a log.

Harmacy
12-06-2009, 03:54 AM
You're slightly undergeared, but you should be OK for regular 10 ToC. There are a lot of variables in play and I can't say whose fault the wipes were without actually being there, but it's not your gear's fault.

Normally I refrain from commenting on Blood specs because I'm inexperienced with Blood, but yours is very screwy. Bladed Armor, 2h spec, Bloody Vengeance, and Bloody Strikes are all FANTASTIC threat talents. Dancing Rune Weapon is of little benefit to a tank. I'd also recommend at least one point in Scent of Blood, to help keep your Rune Strikes flowing.

You chose a lot of filler talents instead, like Sudden Doom and Subversion, as well as some totally useless talents like Butchery, Improved Blood Presence, and Bloodworms.

If you want self-healing (and the points in IBP and bloodworms indicate that you do), spec into Rune Tap and Improved Rune Tap then. Like I said, I'm not an experienced Blood tank, but a 20% heal on a 30 second cooldown is very powerful, and if you spec into the good threat talents you will have enough extra threat to skip a Heart Strike for a Rune Tap.

The hard part, seems to me, is timing your Death Strikes and Rune Taps to be just after the Impale hits. Of course this won't help if your healers are stunned, silenced, or just plain ol' made of FAIL, but assuming a competent group it will make a big difference.

You're also missing the Vampiric Blood glyph, which I understand is required for Blood tanks. Replace Death Strike or DnD glyph with it (I'd recommend ditching Death Strike, as your single-target threat should be good enough).

I honestly have no clue whether Spell Deflection is worth the points, although my gut says no.

As far as gear goes... replace that necklace with the conquest one ASAP. Block value = baaad. Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with your gear other than it's somewhat low level.

edit: and oh yeah, level your professions! If you have gold to spend, I'd suggest getting Jewelcrafting for your second profession, as the JC crafted trinket (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44063) is way better than what you're using. If not, well, mining will suffice.

Arklay
12-06-2009, 03:59 AM
you are undergeared, and you should not be taking 3 stacks with that kind of gear, and we can't tell what went wrong with no logs
i don't know if its your alt or something, but it seems that you just ran toc5m to get 'geared', maybe you need more experience too

Surcqura
12-06-2009, 04:06 AM
Ok thanks for the advice and very quick replys!

Im going to use my Huntard as a minner and farm my pwn mats to level BS and JC up soon. I just get to lazy to level them up bacause it's probs going to take 3+ days of played time to farm mats and level them both up.

Would a sucsessful Blood DK tank please post a spec that they use. Thanks!

@ Arklay, No this is my not my main. TBH your post wasent helpfull in the least and yea well about experience, i probs have much more experience then you raid and PvP wise.

Aggathon
12-06-2009, 04:27 AM
I'd also say that it can be a tank's fault they die b/c of lack of cooldowns. I come from the school of thought that (obviously depending on the circumstance, but typically...) if a tank hadn't tried everything within reason to stay alive it is at least partially their fault. NBR flat out requires lots of cooldowns. I've often ended up running out of cooldowns to pop on that boss (and others).

Surcqura
12-06-2009, 04:28 AM
I actully poped every cool down i had to try and stay alive so thats ones out :P

Petninja
12-06-2009, 04:59 AM
If you guys are having trouble with 3-4 stacks just switch on 2 stacks. It doesn't really hurt anything. My guild used that before we were geared up to take more.

vine
12-06-2009, 07:34 AM
I'm repeating what has been said, but don't take 3-4 stacks: swap at 2. Once you get better gear take it to 3. All you are doing is stressing your healers.

Theotherone
12-06-2009, 07:57 AM
Looks like you're a bit under geared - having a majority of 200 lvl gear makes it very tough UNLESS, you have uber-healers and even you'll have issues taking the hits. With emblems, you should be able to upgrade fairly quickly.

Espillion
12-06-2009, 08:27 AM
Normal TOC, a good line would be taking 2 stacks rather than 3 if the damage starts to pile.

Fearghus
12-06-2009, 02:27 PM
You owe a responsibility to the party to be as geared as you can possibly be for the content you are going to tank. In this case, you are undergeared with all that item level 200 stuff. The trinkets are fine, but anything else should be at 219/226 item level at the very least.

Think about it, ToC 10 was released assuming everyone as in 219 Ulduar gear, and ToC 25 was released assuming everyone was in 226 Ulduar gear.

The spikes you are taking are all the more severe for your lack of health, mitigation and avoidance.

Tazlex
12-06-2009, 02:42 PM
For doin ToC 10 you should be fine. Yes gear might be underpar but you should not be having death issues. How many healers are in this PuG?

Other point that has been addressed is switching at 2 stacks. Why go more than what is necessary? Should never need to make a fight harder on healers than it should be.

vine
12-06-2009, 04:21 PM
im srry but you are way under geared for toc10man you need some 232s and all epics to do that on normal not H...did i help?
You don't need 232's for ToC10, you get 232 in ToC10. Get the badge and crafted gear.

Kurtosis
12-06-2009, 04:31 PM
Unless you're these guys (http://pwnwear.com/2009/08/26/ulduar-cleared-in-blues-not-epics/), you're undergeared for ToC 10. When in doubt, look yourself up on wow-heroes.com (http://www.wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Frostwolf&name=Surcqura) to see what instances will be easy for your gear level, what instances will be challenging, and which will be damn near impossible.

Lucky for you that will change in patch 3.3 where you'll be able to collect Triumph Emblems farming 5man Heroics, so make your shopping list at the two Triumph Vendors outside ToCr and hit the ground running farming those emblems 3.3 drops.

Finally, this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jMEMqI0IsbMbssthxZ0g:iGp0Mm) is my favorite single-target tanking spec so far. It has all the Effective Health and self-healing Blood can provide, while still doing strong single-target physical damage threat. It's great for all the fights in ToC 10 except faction champs, where it suffers a lack of CC.

I compensate by switching to a Frost tank CC offspec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jZhxxthMIzcubuzAo0g0hxb:TNf0Mm) for that fight. The tanks' job is usually to shut down or two of the melee dps each, and that frost build gives enough CC to do the job, while sacrificing dps and 5% parry (which isn't needed, their melee dps don't hurt a geared tank much).

Vlad
12-07-2009, 03:31 AM
So today I was running a PUG mostly a guild run with a few random pugs.
walk into Toc 10man Buff up I had 42.2k HP buffed and our pally MT had 41.4k buffed.

Start the fight everything is fine pally (the MT, coz the grp leader hates DK tanks as MT) Gets the boss, tanks him though 4 stacks of impale then we switch.
I start to tank the boss and staiight away i here my elert for low HP. I keep tanking the boss get to 3 stacks or impale and then die and then healers start to blame me for the whipe. ( witch i don't get how it's "my" fault)

Do it a few more times and this time the other tank dies and then i die and somhow it;s my fault again not healers.

Next part get to worms, and then we both die and we both get the blame, not the god dam healers.......

So was this my fault or the healers?

Am i undergeard for 10 toc? The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostwolf&n=Surcqura)

Do i need to change my spec? Why was i getting blamed??/ Anything please!!!!

BTW I actully think in p1 the dps wernt getting the adds of the healers so thats why we were dropping, but i seriously dont no.... because it's NEVER EVER the dps fault. Always tanks....

Well its probably is both the tanks faults, 30k unbuffed is really marginal even in 10 man normal. But only because I imagine your healers are probably geared the same.
Switch on two, taunt it back while theres 7 or 8 seconds left on your two stack cos it'll drop off before you stack again.
Also your blood tanking spec is messed up, go with something like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMVhhIsbobssxhxZ0x:io)

And fill out the rest with whatever suits you, DRW is a complete waste... blood worms might actually be useful given your health :)

Good luck!

Mr.Winkle
12-07-2009, 03:58 AM
Seriously why would anyone switch on more than 2 stacks, there's simply no reason to take anymore than 2 stacks of impale unless you just fancy chalenging yourselves.

Having 1 tank take 4 stacks of implae and then taking a further 3 stacks is definitely the reason you died on the encounter.

If you need someone to blame it's whoever made that decision.

From what others have said sounds like your gear/spec may need some work but 42k buffed sounds reasonable depending on how much armour you have.

Theotherone
12-07-2009, 05:28 AM
Also your blood tanking spec is messed up, go with something like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMVhhIsbobssxhxZ0x:io)


Good luck!

Interesting spec no Rune Tap or Improved Rune Tap and you have 4 points left over? When I tank in Blood Spec I use Rune Tap a lot; what's the theory behind not having it?

motoucle
12-07-2009, 08:05 AM
Hi there,

Indeed you might be a little undergeared for totc 10. And Yes your spec is strange. What i use in totgc is The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Wildhammer&cn=Birlic&gn=Slackers+Inc). Sudden Doom is by no means necessary, but i almost always forget to DC.

Edit,

No you dont need rune tap, that s only useful if you roll with bad healers

Viridios
12-07-2009, 10:29 AM
Just thought I'd chime in with more complaints about impales: In 10 man, you never ever ever ever need to take more than 2. If someone's sloppy, you can get 3. Either way, you shouldn't die; 10m normal Gormokk hits only kinda hard during impale, and your healers/cooldowns should save you.

I suspect the reason they were doing it that way was so that the paladin could bubble the 4 ticks off and then BoP the other tank's away. I've seen that used as a method to keep the tanks alive with innattentive or bad healers.

As for worms - that would be a placement issue [someone sprayed the raid], a paralysis issue [fire debuffed tank doesn't clear people] or a no kiting issue. Those are really the only ways [barring lolthreat] a tank can cause a wipe while both worms are up.

Reev
12-07-2009, 10:36 AM
For ToC 10, there's no reason to take more than 2 stacks of the debuff. It falls off in time to switch at 2 stacks. ToC 25 man is a different story.

Griff
12-07-2009, 04:05 PM
Start the fight everything is fine pally (the MT, coz the grp leader hates DK tanks as MT) Gets the boss, tanks him though 4 stacks of impale then we switch.

Yeah..its because the raid leader hates DK MT..nothing to do with the fact that you haven't taken advantage of epic gems to boost your health pool or bothered to work on your professions at all, despite the buffs they would provide. If you'd taken the time to level your professions, you'd have a stam pool that would make you a viable tank in ToC ten, but now you're just wasting your raid's time imho.

vine
12-07-2009, 09:21 PM
Blood Worms are a terrible talent for a tank. They attack from the front and can cause parries.

Hades
12-08-2009, 04:06 AM
I'd step your gear up. The t8.5 two-piece available for badges is going to be a vast upgrade from the t7 and toc helm. Also, if you're going to rock a non-epic cloak smash on H Nexus and get the one from the optional boss in the hall of stasis. Leveling professions would give you a huge boost as well. Switch to the conquest badge gear ASAP. Gloves, belt, both are great upgrades. Once you get your gear to a suitable place you'll be in good shape... provided you find a non-hater raid leader.

Vlad
12-14-2009, 10:07 PM
Interesting spec no Rune Tap or Improved Rune Tap and you have 4 points left over? When I tank in Blood Spec I use Rune Tap a lot; what's the theory behind not having it?

Probably only because I'm terrible and lazy, I never remember to use trinkets or anything. If you're not lazy like me and have scrub healers it's probably the best.
Also about the bloodworms, yeah they're pretty lame for tanking.. I don't really give a damn about parries since I roll with too much health to care (43k unbuffed, I can't remember how much buffed but it's prob 52-53k).

I can't remember where I put my 4, 3/3 ravenous dead and 1/3 DnD to lower the CD a bit. RD helps with my threat (and a teeny bit of avoidance) because DK threat isn't fantastic.. and before you go calling me a bad, bear in mind our top dps average 9-10k dps without too much trouble so they are hard to keep at bay.
ICC has just made it that much harder, losing 20% dodge but gaining 17% RS threat is a backwards step.