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r0ff13c0p73r
12-04-2009, 01:00 AM
So,
Just some basic info, I'm a Prot Warr tank with a gear score of about 2300.

I've been reading up on tank specs both here and at wowhead.com (though that usually just sends me back here) and a lot of people are plugging for the DW/Impale build. I haven't been raiding for all that long (about a month), but I've noticed almost every Warr tank I've raided with using the DW spec yet I still out threat them. Many people have also stated "threat isn't an issue anymore" but I've seen Warlocks and Mages pull some pretty crazy TPS, and I've had raids wipe because I hold back on my threat a little because I don't want to mess with the healers (something I've been doing less and less of). For a period when I first started to raid tank, I tried DW cookie cutter but found my TPS unsatisfactory so switched to using Cruelty.

With these facts in mind I want to ask.
1. What can go wrong with DW build?
2. Were those other tanks probably scrub?
3. Is there a gear level that DW becomes better? (Like the Fury vs Arms debate)
4. What is the TPS you DW tanks usually put out? (Don't be afraid to give me a max and a min, for instance I'm currently around 6-10k TPS depending on crit/sword and board fully raid buffed.)
5. What is a relatively standard TPS number I should be looking for?

P.S. I've searched through a lot of posts, etc so I'm sorry if this is similar, but i haven't found anything recent. Also, I keep reading about "I get more threat from X skill" but not a lot of these posts use clear numbers, so I'd really prefer specific TPS numbers from a reliable threat meter like Omen.

EDIT:
I did a respec into a DW build to try it again, so don't base comments on my spec please.

Aggathon
12-04-2009, 01:14 AM
Well most warriors going the deep wounds build also don't focus on hit/expertise caps.

In my EHP gear I have 60 hit and 36 expertise. with DW build I average about 8k tps in said gear. I usually range from about 6k tps (absolute lowest) to about 11.5k tps (absolute highest, not counting ToTT, etc.)

So basically I have jack squat in terms of threat stats, but I still do the same and slightly more TPS than you do using deep wounds. I have no idea why impale dw isn't working for you. If you're out threating other tanks the only reason I could possibly have is either they're bad, they don't focus on threat, or you have vigilance on someone very beastly.

Also looking through your gear, if you truly aren't having threat problems, you have great need of re-gemming. You don't have a single +30 stam gem. You have the 3 51 stam gems, 1 24 stam gem, and that's it. You should never gem for strength, you hit a dodge bonus with a hit/stam gem which isn't optimal. I can understand defense gems to an extent, but now that you're over 540 it becomes more optimal to gem for stam.

I have no idea why DW spec didn't work for you, what spec did you use specifically? What was your threat like? What do you use for your rotation?

Aggathon
12-04-2009, 01:19 AM
Making another post to answer the specific questions:



1. What can go wrong with DW build?
The only thing is that maybe you sacrifice talents like imp demo and 5/5 commanding presence that no one else in the raid is providing, other than that, nothing.


2. Were those other tanks probably scrub?
Either scrub, or not focusing on EHP, the benefit of DW is that we can do about the same TPS without worrying at ALL about TPS stats like hit.


3. Is there a gear level that DW becomes better? (Like the Fury vs Arms debate)
Not that I'm aware of, I switched to DW back in like Naxx25 when I was still wearing pieces of Sunwell/T6 gear. I shunned it for a little, but as soon as I switched, my TPS skyrocketed and I've never looked back.


4. What is the TPS you DW tanks usually put out? (Don't be afraid to give me a max and a min, for instance I'm currently around 6-10k TPS depending on crit/sword and board fully raid buffed.)
I am usually about 6k TPS absolute minimum, I usually cruise around 8k-ish, and top out around 11.5k with lucky crits. And just a side note I'm personally skeptical about a spec without impale and DW doing 10k TPS. I can believe 6k-8k though.


5. What is a relatively standard TPS number I should be looking for?
7-8k, if dps is doing that much put Vig on them, but our dps pull an average of about 8k dps topping out around 9 and 10k dps, and they rarely if ever pull aggro off of me.

Edited for editing.

r0ff13c0p73r
12-04-2009, 01:40 AM
Haha, I do have one +30 stam gem and it's in my gun. I don't have the money to buy all the stam gems, and I just got JC which will take a few days to get the pattern (by then I'll have the badges to purchase the uncut gems I need)

Also, my old spec had a problem (I didn't read the description of gag order closely enough). But basically, instead of the 5 points for Impale/DW I put them in Cruelty, Focus Rage, and something else though it slips my mind right now.

As to why I gem the way I do? Well, a couple interesting posts that I can't remember who they were by (on either elitistjerks or tankspot) mentioned that "any wasted socket bonus is a wasted stat" Furthermore, after I bumped my hit rating and expertise up to their current levels I got a nice threat boost in the terms of 1.5k TPS or so. Oh, and that embarrassing little strength gem was from a period of thinking that the strength bonus would help block value (Yeah, I admit, I can be stupid sometimes). I haven't changed it yet because, frankly, I forgot it was there and I keep hoping that I'll get an up before I need to regem (also why I haven't spent the money on the leg enchants...though that's probably going to happen here soon). (Totally offtopic)

Thanks for the quick response though, and thank you so much for the hard numbers...I'm really tired of looking at a dps forum and seeing really specific data and then moving to a tanking forum and see most posts devolve into "I get lots of threats!"

As to the rotation. (For single mobs) It's the standard SS->Devastate (unless Revenge procs) and then hitting SS whenever it's up (SB on cooldown obvi) and always HS. Which leads me to another question...

I've noticed the DW build doesn't use abilities like "Focus Rage" or "Puncture" or "Imp Bloodrage" (Not saying that it should or that these are necessary though I am used to having Focus Rage) and while I know I won't have troubles in a boss battle or raid trash...what about heroic instance trash? Do you ever have rage issues when dealing with heroic trash?

luv2tank
12-04-2009, 02:03 AM
Everything aggathon said is great. I do kind of disagree w/ the stam gems for everything with your gear level personally, as i think more avoidance would help you more. Mixed gems like enduring eye of zul and shifting dreadstones may give you a more rounded toon. That is just my opionion, but stam gems are the way to go eventually as you progress thru gear. I have the same spec, minor differences than yours however but i do around the same numbers as aggathon. A few tips is to just know what some of those classes can do or spec into just to help out from not pulling off you all the time. Warlocks should already know they are just threat machines-Soul shatter can help prevent aggro pulls. Hunters have feign death and so on. Mages pull some insane numbers these days, however they can invisi-and pop mirror images. Your raid works as a unit, if they cannot dps properly(not pull aggro) then all you have to worry about is what cool down to pop and when. I noticed, in the early stages was that i never-and i mean never used heroic strike. Make heroic strike your best friend-spam it at all means necessary until you have about 20 rage left. Also, change your glyph of sunder for glyph of devastate if you want more threat. Devastate has become very strong since 3.2, i'd suggest using it to its potential. I also think damage shield blows unless you have an insane block set or you are tanking adds. Use the 2 pts elsewhere imo.

Aggathon
12-04-2009, 02:04 AM
Str does increase BV, but it's at a rate of 2:1, so it's pretty inefficient.

Gag Order is pretty important, that could have messed it up.

as for: "any wasted socket bonus is a wasted stat"

Whoever said that is... and I say it like this because there's no other way to say it where I won't emphasis the point enough without using curse words... COMPLETELY WRONG.

r0ff13c0p73r
12-04-2009, 02:25 AM
Yeah, the inefficient thing is why I say I can be stupid at times.

One thing I am seeing from this thread and more threads I've been reading is I'm not talented//glyphed toward survival as much as I should be which I'm going to fix next time I log.

As for damage shield...eh, that's a very subjective talent because I've heard good arguments for both. Also, Gag Order was messed up for my previous spec and I wonder if I went back to cruelty if that would bump me up into the 7-8k range...but I just respecced and I'm determined to try another DW.

As for avoidance: To get to more accepted levels I think I need 2-3 % dodge 1% parry and to drop 2-3% block (up past 20 due to gear not gemming/enchants.)

And again, my problem isn't threat, it's threat using the DW build...if my current DW doesn't work, I'll just jump back to cruelty without any tears shed...as for DPS doing their jobs? Sometimes tanking with a guild isn't always an option, even though I'm the MT for a lot of my guild's stuff and OT for everything else (we're small, but we're growing!) I still have to PUG a bunch of raids meaning having extra threat//ways to keep stupid DPS from causing a wipe is always a good thing.

Thanks for the responses, I have the info I need and other strategies to take another roll at the DW spec and a few contingencies in case my current build doesn't plan out before washing my hands of it again.

I think what i shall do is try dropping Damage Shield in favor of keeping my 2 points in cruelty (5 percent crit makes me sad) and putting those into Imp Disc (which I should have already had)

Aggathon
12-04-2009, 02:34 AM
Damage shield is a must have talent. There's no need to re-invent the wheel here rofflecopter.

Try this spec/glyph setup:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZMItrx0didIzsGo:drTmzo)

It has a nice mix of survivability and threat.

Oh also, you really need to change your helm meta, use: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41380

Petninja
12-04-2009, 02:40 AM
Damage Shield provides a massive amount of your AoE threat generation (especially used in conjunction with Shield Block), and honestly probably contributes about as much as your cruelty points are going to. Cruelty will buff your DPS 2%. If you're doing 3k dps average it's still going to work out to a 60dps increase. If you have at least 1500sbv (and you probably do) you'll be hitting with it for about 300, and if it's proccing once every 5s you'll get 60dps out of it. Might be less often with avoidance, but if you're keeping shield block up it will still even out to about the same.

The point is that on single target you're not really gaining anything with Cruelty over DS, and on AoE you've clearly lost.

r0ff13c0p73r
12-04-2009, 02:42 AM
Well, I'll try different things...not gonna go into a raid with this yet, gonna run some heroics and gauge the differences between this build and my old build...with a slightly decent group nothing bad should happen. And again, there are multiple good arguments over Damage shield that don't need to be rehashed in this thread.

Also, don't think I don't notice you linking me your own build...I looked up your char on armory to see what your build was the moment you posted :D.

Aggathon
12-04-2009, 02:47 AM
Also, don't think I don't notice you linking me your own build...I looked up your char on armory to see what your build was the moment you posted :D.

Why wouldn't I post the build I use? (also I'm logged out in block gear).

r0ff13c0p73r
12-04-2009, 02:50 AM
Yeah, didn't mention the gear stuff because I figured after the line about gemming for stam that gear gemmed for def wasn't exactly what you normally use...still, thanks for the input...I like seeing different builds...it's what makes Warr tanking fun...