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Smallwall
12-01-2009, 10:36 AM
Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alleria&n=Smallwall)

Impromptu VoA last night: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/046bw6ceyojpnj67/)

Hi I'm primarily a mage and the warrior is my alt who was intended to tank "last tier gear". So when the progression folks in my guild were fighting in Ulduar, Smallwall here was tour guide in Naxx to help folks catch up with the main pack.

Last night I threw together an impromptu VoA in guild to help quite a few new 80s. T7 boss was no problem, T8 boss the tanking was fine, but the DPS was low (new 80s). On Koralon we had myself and a slightly better geared tank taking the meteor fists, and the healers were some of the better in guild who have seen late Ulduar 10 (we are casual raiding), and cleared ToC10 on regular. But I still seemed to have survivability problems.

Is it gear? Spec? Glyphs? More proactive use of cooldowns? Needing to L2P? I don't ever expect to be the best warrior tank, but I don't want to be thought of as "hard to heal" for encounters I feel I am ready for.

Any advice is welcome. And in case anyone is wondering I never seem to have a problem with threat relative to my guildies so if enchants or gems should be swapped I can do that. I also have other 1h weapon options, but I thought that was the best choice of what I have.

MellvarTank
12-01-2009, 11:42 AM
Well the only thing I could think to suggest is changing out some enchants and glyphs. For glyphs: I'd get rid of Heroic Strike and Revenge. I'm a bigger fan of devastate/sunder, but aside from that there is shield wall and taunt and vig which are all great for particular applications.

For enchants, I'd put armor on my cloak and either +10 all stats or 258(?) health on the chest. For your weapon I would look at either Blood Draining, Bladeward, or Mongoose. For your shoulders get either Greater inscription of the pinnacle (Sons of Hodir) or the 30 stam/resil enchant from pvp vendor. Other than that you could probably stand to lose the def gems for stamina, and I'd get a trinket other than the brewfest one, like the Purified Onyxia Blood Talisman for fights like Koralon (heavy flame damage).

The only thing I think I can attribute to Koralon deaths is A) I didn't see a shield wall buff gained, I might have missed it, but you should be using that when he casts meteor fists to mitigate some damage and B) The lack of dps hurts. The longer the fight takes, the more likely you are to die. I also noticed a large amount of burning cinder damage, which means don't stand in the fire. Other than that I think more dps would have helped quite a bit more, and using your cooldowns at the right times.

Smallwall
12-01-2009, 12:04 PM
I was thinking for glyphs putting last stand and shield wall in to basically reduce the cooldowns so I'm less hesitant to use them. On the first couple attempts I was gunshy on the cooldowns, but on the last one I think I used shield wall, enraged regen, and last stand.

On enchants I'm running hodirs as I can to get the exalted rep, the weapon stuff I have Moongoose on my mage so I can get that on the weapon easy. I don't have easy access to Bladeward or Blood Draining so those are not likely to happen. On Mongoose is the proc THAT big of a boost in survivability? I'll flip some of the other enchants (back and chest) but I don't think if I do that I can swap out the gems. I can play with it though.

I'll shop the BIS lists on trinkets and see what is out there that I'm likely to get (don't do much 25 mans, but maybe I could pug some quick ones)

I think you are right about the low DPS since it means I'm gonna go through more cooldowns, and it is like walking a tightrope for 10 minutes instead of 4, more chance for screw ups.

Thanks for the starting direction, I'll play around with glyphs and enchants (easier for me to swap cheaply than gems at this point) and go trinket shopping.

dirt
12-01-2009, 01:19 PM
For your gear level and considering how much damage he throws around, I would not sweat it much.

The DPS output certainly gimped you, the longer any fight goes the better chance there are for things to go wrong and a wipe to follow.

Your trinkets are not bad, The Black Heart is a keeper certainly if you don't have access to the Ulduar or ToC 25man ones. You could always get the Glyph of Immdomibility for 50 badges, it's a nice armor boost for really heavy physical damage fights like NRB.

I'd also suggest changing to LS & SW glyphs if you plan to do any significant level of raid content. I'd also recommend getting the Command glyph also to increase the duration of your commanding shout unless you will be paired with another warrior who has is and is providing that for the raid.

What Mellvar suggested is good for the enchants, I'd get +275 health to chest and before I would normally not suggest getting expensive enchants like Blade Ward or Blood Draining, but prices for abyss crystals have fallen alot atleast on my realm. I like Blood Draining and would suggest that, think it's 4 abyss crystals well worth it imho.

Smallwall
12-02-2009, 08:50 AM
I want to thank you guys for the advise. I swapped out for glyph of Last Stand and Shield Wall last night. My guild ran VoA10 and Ony10 last night and I was much more proactive about using cooldowns in crunch time. I watched standing in fire more and felt like just the glyph swap and more attention to the crisis buttons made a big difference. I got enough triumph badges finally to get new shoulders so I picked up the t9. I'm mulling over how to shave 13 defense off in exchange for other things.

Thanks again. and if anyone else has suggestions I'm happy to take them

Aggathon
12-02-2009, 11:19 AM
I disagree with a lot of what mellvar said and agree with a lot of what dirt said. However, for some reason I cannot view your armory, so I will simply leave generalities.

Glyphs:

There are basically 3 situations that you may need glyphs I'll divide them up into survivability, threat, and other.

The survivability glyphs are: Shield Wall, Last Stand, and Blocking.

You've already learned that nice little trick though.

Threat glyphs: Blocking, Devastate, Vigilance

Other: Taunt, Cleave. If you're AoE tanking about 4-5 adds like in a heroic 5 man or something, cleave is very good. Taunt is good for fights that you really don't want to miss a taunt on, like Northrend Beasts.

I actually carry around stacks of all of the aforementioned glyphs (except for Vigilance because it is never really been necessary for me) and switch them out as needed per fight.

Gemming:

Basically, how I gem is 30 stam in everything, except I try to hit my highest stam bonus that meets a red socket for my meta gem. Currently I have 30 stam and 10agi/15stam in my legs to hit a 9 stam bonus to meet my meta requirement. Other people may say to hit any 9 or 12 stam bonus regardless, and that's fine too. And obvisouly the 32stam+2% armor meta.

Enchanting:

Helm: Glyph of the Stalwart Protector (37stam 20 defense)
Shoulder: 30stam/15 resil
Cloak: 225 armor
Chest: 275 Hit Points
Bracer: 40 stam
Weapon: Blood draining or blade warding for warrior imo, mongoose is acceptable too.
Shield: 18 stam or 20 defense
Boots: Tuskarr's Vitality (runspeed + 15 stam)
Legs: 55stam/22agi
Gloves: 240 armor or 18 stam.

Talents:

I obviously don't know what your spec is since I can't see your armory at the moment, but this is the basic spec I run with:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZMItrx0didIzsGo)


Hope this helps, GL!

Smallwall
12-02-2009, 03:54 PM
On spec:
I run the old fashion 15/5/51. Very similar to your spec except the 2 points in cruelty instead of the 2 points in Improved disciplines. If I find myself becoming super in love with shield wall and want to have it's babies, I might switch the two. I'm not quite ready to drop cruelty yet though just because I want to gauge how my threat generation has changed since swapping glyphs. Last night I did fine (nice blend of survivability and threat gen), but I wanna give it some time before going nuts on the survival side.

On gems/gear:
I think if 3.3 does drop next week as mmo champion says it will, I won't really worry about swapping enchants and gems now since I am at the gear level where most is 213/219 gear. I will probably farm the new 5 man, get triumph badge gear etc. But going forward I'll probably take the enchanting advice.


Like I said in the OP this is an alt behind my main which is a mage. I'm not quite ready to hang up the wand quite yet. So Smallwall is something I want to keep in good condition, but won't pay any price to max/min.

But thanks for the help. It will be useful in coaching new warrior tanks, and I will start implementing the changes as I get upgrades over the upcoming weeks.

uglybbtoo
12-02-2009, 07:54 PM
Any advice is welcome. And in case anyone is wondering I never seem to have a problem with threat relative to my guildies so if enchants or gems should be swapped I can do that. I also have other 1h weapon options, but I thought that was the best choice of what I have.

Its a gear and healer thing your HP and avoidance is very low for him and your healers arent reacting

FROM THE LOGS

Time Name Cause of death

19:41:14.664 Smallwall [19:41:09.851] Koralon the Flame Watcher Flaming Cinder Smallwall 2383 (R: 323)
[19:41:11.881] Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 14089 (R: 4292)
[19:41:14.262] Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 13301 (O: 8, R: 6742) (more)


19:51:09.966 Smallwall [19:51:05.612] Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 14180 (R: 10800)
[19:51:07.578] Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 11400 (R: 8422)
[19:51:09.591] Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 31130 (O: 2566, R: 9958) (more)


19:58:08.188 Smallwall [19:58:02.999] Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 12464 (R: 6510)
[19:58:05.532] Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 18325 (R: 5583)
[19:58:07.885] Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 15527 (O: 601, R: 2184) (more)


20:09:42.463 Smallwall [20:09:38.876] Koralon the Flame Watcher Flaming Cinder Smallwall 3128 (R: 953)
[20:09:39.923] Koralon the Flame Watcher Flaming Cinder Smallwall 3519 (R: 476)
[20:09:42.438] Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 17815 (O: 3200, R: 6402) (more)


Notice the problem when you take 20-30K in 2-3secs your healers are struggling


One last note I see quite a few 30K+ hits on the tanks from meteor fists which means it didnt get split??? Were you two tanks standing near each other like you are supposed to.

Look at your second death
Koralon the Flame Watcher Meteor Fists Smallwall 31130

You got hit no split.

Toblerone
12-02-2009, 10:21 PM
Another thing that really helps is 4 piece T8 set bonus if you have access to it. Pop shield block each time he meteor fists for 20% less damage. External cooldowns would be next on the list if you're still dying (suppression, angel wings, bubble/sac) rotated with shield wall and last stand should see you surviving the meteor fists fairly easily.

Also Glyph of Shield Wall and Improved Disciplines go hand in hand. I wouldn't get one without the other (although ignore my armory atm as it contradicts that - I swap shield wall for cleaving for anub adds each week). I'd suggest dropping Cruelty for Imp Disciplines.

I'd also consider replacing those 20 defense gems/defense enchant to chest once you're over 540 for crit immunity. Blue sockets should be 30 stam always, there's no point to using any other gem in this socket colour. Yellow can be either 10def/15stam if you want set bonuses, or 30 stam. Red I would use 10dodge/15 stam to fuel the meta/socket bonuses or straight 30 stam again.

Hope it helps! Goodluck with Koralon next week :D

Smallwall
12-03-2009, 02:12 PM
Uglybbtoo- We tried to stand right on top of each other even using markings on our heads so it would be easy to see (gnome tanks are very tiny). The only time we weren't right on top of each other or side by side was transitions from burning cinders landing on our feet. We'd both back but but not always super close together. (Coordination fail) and sometimes one of us would drop so the other would eat a full meteor fist.

I do have a question though. You said my HP and avoidance were very low for him. I know I should always try to get more of each, but for Koralon, what would be sort of good target numbers. I think my buffed HP was just over 40k (maybe 41k?) and my avoidance I think was dodge+parry= 41-42%.

Toblerone- Yeah I need to swap out those gems, and by my current math I can drop 63 defense rating which is some of the enchants, some of the gems, but not all of them. And with 3.3 days away I think I'm gonna wait any expensive gear alterations until I settle into a new set mostly. I think the ICC5 man, and badge gear (t9 pieces) will have me replacing a good deal. I figure get the new gear, then shell out the money/badges/honor to epic gem it out. Enchants would be easier for me as my main a a mage has 450 enchanting.

Again thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

Aggathon
12-03-2009, 09:16 PM
A lot of tanks are between about 38k and 42k unbuffed, it is a pretty reachable goal, so yes 41k buffed is a bit on the low side.

uglybbtoo
12-03-2009, 09:23 PM
Its not like you are terribad or anything its just lowish and I will give sort of average and use secksbutt values as a comparison and while you had high parry you cant parry an AOE.

Your dodge 22% average tanks will be 25% (seckysbutt 24.53%)
Your block 14.89% average tanks will be 20% (seckysbutt 20.9%)

You never going to stack block but its just showing you sort of gear level.

As I said the problem is as much about heals .. drill into the healing.

There is a huge lack of use of hots on the tanks. Renew from evilclev 7.6 % uptime, Pomona (20.8 %). I know renew isnt the greatest spell in priests array but both priests had more healing to give I don't know enuf about shaman to drill that sorry. They also had shield time that wasnt used and under use of circle of healing. They seem to be basically response healing and its all getting away from them. 3 seconds is plenty of time to get a tank back to full so you have to also look at that as well as yourself.