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duffyma
11-29-2009, 08:55 AM
Hi all

I'm pretty new to Level 80, and didn't run many instances before I hit 80. I've tried to gear up using guides on here and from guildies

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Vorgot)

Problem I have is that I am trying to run Heroics with my guild, and they are a very helpful bunch, but I am struggling a little to hold aggro. We have very good healers. My DPS guys have to give me a 5-10 second start before they can lay in, my TPS is very spiky and slow to build.

I use Rawr, using the overall rating as a base to optimise, but someone suggested I try rating for TPS. This knocked my Stamina right down, and swapped in a lot of my DPS gear, which I am pretty sure is not the way to go.

I reckon the main issue is my technique, but my guild reckons I need more TPS and they can back me up on stamina with heals and scrolls. This leaves me open when pugging though.

I don't really intend to raid much, I'm a 5 man normal and Heroic mode guy, any advice would be appreciated.

Solonlee
11-29-2009, 09:08 AM
Hey brother... what is your threat rotation... as in: what skills are you prioritizing?How badly do these dps out gear you? when we start... it can be very difficult to keep up with some of the heavy dps classes due to gear.While you do not want to focus on dps gear so to speak... some things will help your threat. Make sure you are using a faster type tank weapon. Be aware of your group make-up... know ahead who are your threat stealers and mark targets if you need to. Pay attention to expertise, hit, shield block value, and str on gear... expertise is worth making sure you gear for immeditely after survivability stats... the rest will add to your threat nicely...so don't forget about them.give us an armory and the info I asked for...

duffyma
11-29-2009, 09:30 AM
Link to my Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Vorgot)

Rotation, well agains single targets I tend to charge, shield slam, Concussion blow, Thunder clap, Shockwave, HS when rage allows, Revenge when available. Then shield slam and whatever is lit up. I try to maintain Shield Block up to.

On bosses, I devastate to sunder armor 5 straight after charge.

Mutliple mobs, I tend to mark, Heroic throw secondary target, charge primary target, Thunder Clap, adjust position then Shockwave. Cleave when possible, and try to throw Shield SLam and Revenges around by tabbing through targets. TC and SW when available.

Solonlee
11-29-2009, 09:43 AM
Sorry for the spacing on the last reply, it was done on my phone and it seems to it did not take into account the spacing i provided lol.

Your rotation sounds correct... i usually don't go 5 sunders on a boss immediately as I want a bit more threat before the dps get their stacks going...but if that part works leave it alone. Getting 5 stacks is good, i just don't drop them in place of everything else.

In my opinion your gear is better than most of us were when we started heroics. Your best bet is to keep plugging away, and explain to dps that you are learning still and to take the early half of fights a little earlier. Some won't like this and some will ignore it, but at least you warned them.

I usually charge, clap, step back, shockwave... tab through a few while they are stunned, and then shield block and start into my rotation. It is not very dissimilar from your own procedures... so I think you just have over-geared dps mate.

Keep going!

duffyma
11-29-2009, 10:05 AM
Cheers, appreciate the reply.

My guys are overgeared for me, but ae very cool about it, they know I am learning. We have a brilliant chilled guild. A lot of the Heroics I have never run on normal either, so I am seeing a lot of stuff for the first time. They are brilliant helping me learn, and dont expect too much.

They were just trying to help in this case, they ran my gear through RAWR to optimise my TPS, they don't fully understand warrior mechanics and gear.

What I may do is run a RAWR optimise on TPS using just my current gear, ignoring the extra gear I have. This may throw up some gemmings/enchants that I could use to up my threat in the short term, not hitting my stam too much, which they can heal me through.

The main thing is my technique needs improving, that'll come.

Musclebound
11-29-2009, 02:20 PM
In my opinion, the best thing you can do to boost your threat is to get your expertise as high as possible and get as close to the hit cap as possible without gemming for it. I would prioritise expertise over hit before you reach the dodge cap (26 expertise skill or 214 expertise rating) as before dodges are removed from the combat table, 1% expertise actually increases the chance of your attacks connecting more than an equal amount of hit would.

If all you're tanking is heroics, your HP isn't really going to matter past about 30k or so except for e-peen flexing (In my opinion). Some pugs will sneer at a tank who doesnt have 40k health unbufffed in a heroic or something ridiculous like that but screw them =P My point is, once you get a decent amount of health, worry about threat stats. If you decide to move up to serious raiding you can always swap out your gear and enchants for more survival oriented stuff, and from my experience most tanking enchants are cheaper than dps enchants anyway.

Quietsch
11-29-2009, 02:33 PM
Don't know, if i haven't seen it, but did you write anywhere, how much tps you/your guildmates got? (For comparison: with my gear, which is nearly as good as yours, if looked on tps stats, or even worse, i've around 5k tps in 5man hcs)
It could be, unlikely, that they do so much, that you can't reach it.
Also, don't you use devastate? Maybe that could be the problem, because it is a very good style for tps.
And what's about vigilance?

Knighterrant81
11-29-2009, 02:35 PM
I'd look at your glyphs for starters.

Devastate/sunder just isn't as important for threat as it was back in BC, even with the buff to Devastate's damage. There's a reason it's pretty far down in the rotation. With that said, I'd try switching out your glyphs - glyph of Vigilance is the one I am really liking right now, it seems to make our threat a lot more solid (not great, but solid). Glyph of Blocking is also great for single target, and Cleave can help with AOE threat, although I am not particularly impressed with that glyph.

As far as gearing goes, you don't really need to stack hit or even strength, the stat that will probably help you the most is expertise, which you are already capped.

Also, just get a feel for your groups. If the healer is paying attention, go ahead and charge right into groups ahead of your DPS - that alone will give you a threat lead since you pulled first and are close anyway. If the DPS are unloading single target into skull, lead with thunderclap, then shield slam the main target and continue about your business. However, some DPS like to AOE whenever they get the chance (suprise suprise) or even DPS targets other than the main kill target (it buffs their meters). In that case, make sure you get thunderclap and shockwave on all the mobs ASAP, and start cleaving like a madman. The rest is keeping your AE threat on cooldown and tab single target attacking.

A lot of DPS/healers on my server are just more used to having Paladin tanks. They will go hog wild very early and often pull aggro. In heroics, this is frustrating but not usually a problem - however it can be wipe-causing in PUG raids. You just need to communicate to your raid that you are not, in fact, a Paladin, and you don't have threat coming out of your ears and people need to play accordingly.

Lucinam
11-29-2009, 05:17 PM
If I were you I'd immediately look at bringing your hit up. Glyphs I would run in heroics would be cleaving/blocking/devastate. The devastate glyph will put your devastate > revenge as far as tps goes.

duffyma
11-30-2009, 12:06 AM
Lots of advice here guys, cheers. May well swap in a Cleave glyph. The other stuff is all good too.

One great point is that my guild has ONLY had druid or Pally tanks for a long while, I am the first prot warrior we have had in a while. I made some stuff clear yesterday and we ran the daily heroic without me losing aggro once, was a tremendous run.

So thanks all, this has been really useful for me

Xianth
11-30-2009, 07:08 AM
In my opinion, the best thing you can do to boost your threat is to get your expertise as high as possible and get as close to the hit cap as possible without gemming for it. I would prioritise expertise over hit before you reach the dodge cap (26 expertise skill or 214 expertise rating) as before dodges are removed from the combat table, 1% expertise actually increases the chance of your attacks connecting more than an equal amount of hit would.


This^

In terms of gear getting your expertise up will make the world of difference until you hit the dodge cap. It's 26 for raid bosses but as you only want to heroics, the highest level mob you'll face is 82, so 24 expertise is sufficient (afaik).

duffyma
11-30-2009, 07:27 AM
Yep, my expertise is capped for heroics, now there is an argument in my guild that I should a) up my threat at the loss of stamina because we have great healers or b) keep pushing STAM STR and the DPS guys need to adapt for me, it's their job

MellvarTank
11-30-2009, 10:28 AM
Having a look there isn't really much I would think you need to change except your rings... those are some fancy DPS rings but not great for tanking. Of course, I think you are likely working your way up to it as you are in the process of gearing.

One thing I would recommend: Devastate + Shield Slam are your two best friends right now. They are your highest threat attacks, and if you do nothing else, spam devastate/shield slam the whole time and you shouldn't have too many threat issues unless the dps is crazy. Usually the best way to hold threat on multiple mobs is battle charge the mob, thunder clap, line them up for a shockwave and then start tab-devastating/shield slamming all of them. If you marked the mob before hand, after one run through them you should focus on your kill order, and switch targets before your dps does. ie. If skull is at 25% life, switch to X (if X is next in kill order) and start building threat on him. This way the dps won't have to slow down as much. Also: Use Concussion blow on a mob that you aren't attacking for a while. Nothing wrong with "sharing the love" at the expense of dps. Warriors do not tank through DPS, they tank through high-threat abilities. (Oh, and keep thunderclap on cooldown.)

duffyma
11-30-2009, 10:37 AM
Great reply, thanks. My tanking rings suck, but I picked up a Solid Platinum Band yesterday that will help. Need a second good one now.

jh7468
11-30-2009, 11:19 AM
Hey - don't forget to use Vigilance. This can be really helpful for a pesky Hunter in your group who can't control his aggro or a well armed partner who does massive dps. When I go to the boss, it's easier to hold threat, so I'll put vigilance on the healer.

Petninja
11-30-2009, 12:06 PM
I'd look at your glyphs for starters.

Devastate/sunder just isn't as important for threat as it was back in BC, even with the buff to Devastate's damage. There's a reason it's pretty far down in the rotation.

You'd think that, but you'd be wrong. Glyphed Devastate as he is, he's going to be putting out enough threat with just devastate alone to consider dropping revenge from his rotation all together (it's a tricky business). Also, depending on your SBV in some sets Devastate will come out ahead of CB and SW due to SnB Procs.

campeon625
11-30-2009, 12:27 PM
If you are having trouble holding threat try using glyph of vigilance and if you have a hunter or warlock in your group put it on them. Try finding not really the beast geared but the person with the most tps. open up with shield slam, use Thunder clap, and get 5 sunders, then spam heroic strike and revenge.

Bigzoman18
11-30-2009, 12:34 PM
I had similar problems when i first started tanking my first heroics and raids. But Soon i realized that once you master a few concepts it gets easier.

1. Knowing your Highest Dps. For me it was a pesky Feral druid cat who does about 6k dps in raids now. I put vigilence on him for threat to get under control.

2. Maximize the use of your sheild (It's there for more then blocking.) The glyphing og blocking raises ur block value, thus you block more (And with my sheild spike setup it is a tad bit more threat) Also Know when the talent called Sword and Board Procs. If u know when it procs right away and hit your mob with a sheild slam and then continue your threat rotation you will gain that much more threat. Personally I use a Addon Called Parrot. If u want more info on that PM me

3. Use Demoralizing Shout. (Yes you heard me correctly) It may not generate a lot of threat but with prot warriors nowadays u need all the AOE threat u can get. so before useing thunder clap and shockwave hit em with demoralizing shout to get a small boost on threat.

Good Luck My fellow Warrior Tank The day will come when they fix our issues and our lives will be much easier. Just have to be patient

Petninja
11-30-2009, 01:01 PM
I had similar problems when i first started tanking my first heroics and raids. But Soon i realized that once you master a few concepts it gets easier.

1. Knowing your Highest Dps. For me it was a pesky Feral druid cat who does about 6k dps in raids now. I put vigilence on him for threat to get under control.

2. Maximize the use of your sheild (It's there for more then blocking.) The glyphing og blocking raises ur block value, thus you block more (And with my sheild spike setup it is a tad bit more threat) Also Know when the talent called Sword and Board Procs. If u know when it procs right away and hit your mob with a sheild slam and then continue your threat rotation you will gain that much more threat. Personally I use a Addon Called Parrot. If u want more info on that PM me

3. Use Demoralizing Shout. (Yes you heard me correctly) It may not generate a lot of threat but with prot warriors nowadays u need all the AOE threat u can get. so before useing thunder clap and shockwave hit em with demoralizing shout to get a small boost on threat.

Good Luck My fellow Warrior Tank The day will come when they fix our issues and our lives will be much easier. Just have to be patient

1) You want highest TPS, not DPS. Hunters have no innate threat reduction, and rely on Feign Death when they get too high on the meters. If their dps is decent they should be pulling more threat than many dps classes.

2) Glyph of Blocking is going to generate less threat than either Glyph of Devastate or Glyph of Vigilance (provided you used Vig correctly).

3) Demo shout is not worth mentioning for threat. It's a defensive ability. If you need extra AoEish threat pop shield block after the stun on Shockwave ends. It will make damage shield do a lot more for you. If you need the extra threat it would be better to hit Devastate or revenge in the same cooldown period for threat.

Also, I will contest that Warriors are not broken and our AoE thread isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

Reichsadler
11-30-2009, 01:17 PM
I've seen mention here that Devastate is low on priority which is an idea I would contest. Shield Slam is your highest threat gen ability and devastate has a chance to proc Sword and Board which takes your SS off CD and makes it cost zero rage for the next 5 seconds. If you are not keeping Devastate in your standard rotation then you are missing out on a lot of potential threat gen. For initial treat I would also pop Shield block before your initial SS to give you a nice bit of extra threat which can help at the start.

When you have a lot of surplus rage, start queuing Heroic Strike for extra threat just don't let your rage get depleted while doing this as it may leave you short when your SS come off CD.

duffyma
11-30-2009, 02:17 PM
What I love about this is all the answers from people with different approaches who all are doing well. Cheers all, I am cherry picking advice from the guys who suit my style.

Brilliant help, all of you