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View Full Version : Glyph of Indomitability V. Heart of Iron (Some actual math)



Bodasafa
11-26-2009, 06:52 PM
Currently I run with Heart of Iron (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45158) and Satrina's Impeding Scarb (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47080). I decided to crunch some numbers to see if Glyph of Indomitability (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47735) would be an upgrade to my Heart of Iron.

Using the tankspot EH calculator here I plugged in my un-buffed stats to create a base using my standard tank gear, Heart of Iron and Satrina's (non-heroic) and then changed the values to remove the HP from Heart of Iron and add the Armor from the Glyph, results are as follows:

Base Stats (Standard Set w/ Satrina's and Heart)
Health: 41256
Armor: 27891
Block Value: 1323
Dodge: 26.50%
Parry: 20.97%
Miss: 6.56% (+5% to account for the base Miss rate most NPCs have.)
Total Avoidance: 59.03%

Results (Warrior)-
EH: 126632.10
TDR: 86.22

Comparison (Standard Set w/ Satrina's and Glyph)
*I have added the +10% armor from talents and +2% armor from meta modification to the base armor of the glyph into the final armor total.
1792 Base +12% = 2007.04 total armor from Glyph.
Health: 39539
Armor: 29898.04
All other stats remained the same.

Resluts (Warrior)-
EH: 127003.51
TDR: 86.82

Conclusions:
Heart of Iron
+1717 Health

Glyph of Indomitability
+371.41 EH (Effective Health)
+0.60 TDR (Total Damage Reduction)
+1.01% Dodge on Use *( At lvl 80 Heart of Iron provides 6.04% to dodge on use and the Glyph with 7.05%)

It looks like the Glyph has a large edge on Heart of Iron for non-magic fights, but still feels lacking.

At this point I wonder if The Black Heart (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47216) has a larger advantage over the Glyph with its static base stam and steady armor proc of 7056.

Thoughts?

Chasey
11-26-2009, 07:37 PM
My head still hurts....I just finished reading this~Maintankadin • View topic - "New EH" - incorporating different damage types into EH (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=26831&rb_v=viewtopic)

If you like math and numbers you will find your answer, if you don't, STAM is never bad. I too feel the Glyph is lacking.

Bodasafa
11-26-2009, 08:51 PM
I edited the original post to reflect the correct math (I originally did not figure in the armor bonus from talents and the meta) and welcome any additional opinions/comments on the findings.

Regill
11-27-2009, 12:17 AM
My philosophy on trinkets has always been on a per fight basis. Some fights reward bonus armor. Some are magic damage heavy, and reward stam stacking. Some reward avoidance. etc, etc. Too many players get it in their head that they tank in one set of *best* gear, and that's it. The truth is you move pieces around, especially trinkets, since those are easy to swap.

So look at the fights, and decide. Here's what I do in ToGC with what I have available.
Beasts - Juggernaut's, glyph of indom
Jaraxxus - Juggernaut's, glyph of indom
Faction Champs - I wear a block set that still maintains decent expertise and hit, so block trinkets.
Valkyr - Juggernauts / heart of iron
Anub'arak burrowers - specialized unhittable gear.

For standard bosses I like the glyph, and like bonus armor, yet on 3 out of 5 fights in ToGC, I'm using something else. I haven't been on ptr enough to know what ICC bosses will be like.

Xianth
11-27-2009, 12:34 AM
As always i'd choose the glyph for any fight that was predominantly physical damage which is most of them. People just feel less safe because they don't see a bigger number on their char sheet, but you'd be taking 4% less damage with the glyph than you would if you had the heart of iron equipped.

Aggathon
11-27-2009, 05:27 AM
you should really re-do the math at raid buffed levels. It actually does change the outcome of the EH calculations.

Also, I've run these calculations before and have gotten very different results. Being that it's 7:30am I can't really find many people to get me raid buffed stats, but here's my unbuffed stats:

Heart of Iron:
42216 HPs
29146 Armor
EHP:129091.32

Glyph of Indominability:
40496 HPs
30838 Armor
EHP:128678.90

According to these stats taken from in-game (so talents and all that good stuff are taken into account), the heart of iron is about 412 MORE EHP than glyph of indom unbuffed. This is of course for warriors, the stam scaling is better for every other class, 'cept maybe frost DKs indom would be better, but I can't really speak much to that theorycraft.

Also: as I suspected and according to those end game stats, trinket armor is not multiplied by talents. As I recall trinkets, jewelery, and enchants that give +armor are not modified by class bonuses. I think they changed this back in naxx because druids had such absurdly high amounts of armor. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this to be accurate.

drae
11-27-2009, 06:11 AM
Trinkets should always be selected on a Fight per fight basis.

Glyph rocks for anything physical based, it's really an amazing trinket for NRB, even if it doesn't convey much benefit for the worms beyond the "on-use".

The HoI vs. GoI debate is truly a stam vs. armor debate. Balancing of these two stats changes from encounter to encounter; really the trinkets, simply a microcosm of this over-arching gear balancing equation, need to be viewed in the same way.

Durandro
11-27-2009, 06:21 AM
Armour is great against mainly melee bosses, but completely worthless in magic based fights. Hense I'd switch between the two based on requirements.

Just wear Heart of Iron while looking for pugs. Because that's all they look at. Switch while in the instance if you prefer - no-one will notice.

Aggathon
11-27-2009, 06:28 AM
Trinkets should always be selected on a Fight per fight basis.

Glyph rocks for anything physical based, it's really an amazing trinket for NRB, even if it doesn't convey much benefit for the worms beyond the "on-use".

The HoI vs. GoI debate is truly a stam vs. armor debate. Balancing of these two stats changes from encounter to encounter; really the trinkets, simply a microcosm of this over-arching gear balancing equation, need to be viewed in the same way.

Trust me, I loves me some armor(I am engineering and refuse to switch to JC or anything else b/c I love the glove enchant), but if the EHP gap between the benefit from armor and the benefit from stam is that high, then armor doesn't actually add more benefit, unless it is damage that is unhealable, which NRB isn't(as long as you have the EHP to take it, which by using the armor trinket in this case you are giving yourself LESS EHP, thus making it more likely (though I will admit an extremely marginal chance) that you might die), and stam applies to all aspects and every phase of the fight.

drae
11-27-2009, 07:03 AM
I'm considering the Impale application damage reduction from armor, as well as head-butt.

From what I understand the Impale application is mitigatable, but the dot is not.

I stacked armor like crazy for NRB the past two-weeks, Saronite legs, all jewelery and trinkets with armor on them, QS for proc, etc. etc.(I'm still around 49k buffed hps) While I haven't compared logs yet, my healers commented it was easier to heal then normal on both gormok and icehowl. Which makes sense, I still have more then the minimum EH requirement, and now actually taking less damage then previously.

Sakkura
11-27-2009, 07:03 AM
Trust me, I loves me some armor(I am engineering and refuse to switch to JC or anything else b/c I love the glove enchant), but if the EHP gap between the benefit from armor and the benefit from stam is that high, then armor doesn't actually add more benefit, unless it is damage that is unhealable, which NRB isn't(as long as you have the EHP to take it, which by using the armor trinket in this case you are giving yourself LESS EHP, thus making it more likely (though I will admit an extremely marginal chance) that you might die), and stam applies to all aspects and every phase of the fight.
Raid buffs will lessen or reverse the gap since they buff stamina more than armor. Also, a gap of 400 EH is not really that huge; it sounds like a lot, but only because EH is an inflated number compared to regular health (400 health is way better than 400 EH).

Besides that, armor has an added benefit compared to stamina: It reduces damage taken. Stamina only soaks the damage. This means armor, like avoidance, will reduce how often you run into trouble health-wise, as well as increase your ability to survive that trouble just like stamina does.
So for a physical damage encounter, I'd often be willing to trade from stamina to armor at a small loss of EH, as long as it wouldn't take me uncomfortably close to the EH requirement of the fight.

Aggathon
11-27-2009, 07:14 AM
Raid buffs will lessen or reverse the gap since they buff stamina more than armor. Also, a gap of 400 EH is not really that huge; it sounds like a lot, but only because EH is an inflated number compared to regular health (400 health is way better than 400 EH).

Besides that, armor has an added benefit compared to stamina: It reduces damage taken. Stamina only soaks the damage. This means armor, like avoidance, will reduce how often you run into trouble health-wise, as well as increase your ability to survive that trouble just like stamina does.
So for a physical damage encounter, I'd often be willing to trade from stamina to armor at a small loss of EH, as long as it wouldn't take me uncomfortably close to the EH requirement of the fight.

Trust me, I am VERY well aware of the above stated facts. Furthermore, I've run the calculations while raid buffed too (like I said I just didn't have anyone around to give me buffs being that it was very early in the morning) and heart of iron STILL came out ahead.

EHP is all about how much damage you can take from full to dead. It converts HP and Armor into a magical "EHP" number that is the converted hit points of damage we would be able to take if we had no armor (hence 120k EHP being far more thant he 40k hps we actually have). So yes, obviously 400 is an inflated number, but it is still higher. If you are talking about the ability to take damage without heals and still survive (since the leading cause of tank deaths is running out of hit points) then 400 EHP more is still more survivability, regardless of if it comes in the form of stam or armor. Yes, you may be easier to heal because it is absorbed damage rather than damage that you need to heal, however it is still less overall survivability.

Does this all really matter? No, not really. Once you have enough EHP you can pretty much swing it as stam or armor and just be fine.

In re-cap: Yes: armor basically means that you absorb damage instead of having to be healed, however you still end up having marginally lower overall survivability from the "full to dead" side of things if you have less "EHP"

Kavtor
11-27-2009, 07:25 AM
The trick to the armour trinket is that at times, it's effects can be multiplied. When you're looking at Gormok, the damage that's going to kill you is physical. But also, it's getting hit by a number of effects at once that's going to put you in danger.

So while a stamina trinket may give you overall better EH for any single blow, the armour is going to reduce the damage of the melee swing and impale. Obviously, it doesn't help on the bleed tick, but reducing the damage of a melee and an instant attack at once is particularly helpful.

Aggathon
11-27-2009, 07:28 AM
The trick to the armour trinket is that at times, it's effects can be multiplied. When you're looking at Gormok, the damage that's going to kill you is physical. But also, it's getting hit by a number of effects at once that's going to put you in danger.

So while a stamina trinket may give you overall better EH for any single blow, the armour is going to reduce the damage of the melee swing and impale. Obviously, it doesn't help on the bleed tick, but reducing the damage of a melee and an instant attack at once is particularly helpful.

The problem is that the damage it reduces those attacks by is less than the hps gained by the heart of iron, that's what the EHP calculations are all about!

Bodasafa
11-27-2009, 09:03 AM
Also: as I suspected and according to those end game stats, trinket armor is not multiplied by talents. As I recall trinkets, jewelery, and enchants that give +armor are not modified by class bonuses. I think they changed this back in naxx because druids had such absurdly high amounts of armor. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this to be accurate.

If the base armor on the Glyph is not subject to altercation by the +12% (talents and meta) then it changes the results.

Originally I had calculated the comparison without the +12% and put the Glyph at a mediocre:

+0.54 TDR
+1.01% to Dodge on Use

That was the only gain it had on Heart of Iron which had:

+215.5 EH
+1717 Health

So if the armor is not subject to change on the glyph, by these numbers it would appear that Heart of Iron would win in every application.

That is unless 0.54 TDR carries more weight than the EH and Raw HP of the Heart. The on use is good, but is only 1.01% better than Heart.

Bodasafa
11-27-2009, 08:19 PM
I would like some more opinions here if anyone cares to comment.

I'm mostly interested in if 0.54 TDR (Total Damage Reduction) is a lot or a little.

I'm also thinking that The Black Heart may have both these trinkets beat since it has Stam and Armor (in the form of a proc). Now had it been a lower proc I would have dismissed it, but 7K is a ton.

Sakkura
11-28-2009, 09:50 AM
In re-cap: Yes: armor basically means that you absorb damage instead of having to be healed, however you still end up having marginally lower overall survivability from the "full to dead" side of things if you have less "EHP"
Yeah, but "full to dead" survivability is not the only thing that matters. It's the most important one, even by a very wide margin, but not the only one. If you have more avoidance for example, that does nothing whatsoever for your "full to death" survivability, but it does still help you survive. In the same way, the fact that armor mitigates damage instead of soaking it gives you a (small) side benefit compared to stamina. So eg. 4000 EH from armor > 4000 EH from stamina/health, as long as we are talking physical damage. In my opinion, 4000 EH's worth of armor could even be better in many cases than 4500 EH from stamina/health.

I'll recap my post too: Armor = EH (usually applied) + side benefit, Stamina = EH (always applied) + nothing.

Aggathon
11-28-2009, 02:14 PM
It might be better, but without heals you're still dead if you run out of EHP, regardless of if it is armor or stam. My entire point is that even if you take less damage, if you have less hit points than the decrease in damage intake, you are still going to die with no heals. Hence the "full to dead" argument.

And you can't really convert avoidance into EHP because it's RNG based, so making that comparison is both pretty hard and well... /toc broken record.

Ezanul
11-29-2009, 03:02 AM
If you have enough EHP to survive the burst damage then I think armor is better because it reduces required healing throughput.

Wilhem
11-29-2009, 10:44 AM
From what i'm getting it sounds like the two of you are saying the same thing but coming at it from different points of view.

Agg is saying that having 75K HP will give healers more time to heal you so that you won't go down.

Eza is saying that if you're armor is mitigating all of the damage your healers won't need to heal nearly as much.

Both points are valid, but all of one and none of the other isn't a valid option as with no armor you'll get one/two shot and with all avoidance/armor and no health you're going to get RNG'd sooner than later.

Bodasafa
11-29-2009, 01:29 PM
This back and forth discussion about Stam v. Armor theroy dose not preset any conclusions for the topic of this thread.

Even if you used different base stats to do a compare on your own or included full raid buffs, the conclusion is still the same you are going to get more TDR and 1.01% dodge on use with the Glyph and more EH and Health with Heart of Iron.

At this point I'm disregarding the dodge on use, since it is a "chance" and only 1% more.

The real question:

Is 0.54 TDR a lot or a little in the grand scheme of things?

If the answer is yes it's a lot, then the Glyph may be worth using on physical fights.

If the anser is no, then the Glyph losses hands down to Heart of Iron for any fight.

Sakkura
11-29-2009, 01:57 PM
Even if you used different base stats to do a compare on your own or included full raid buffs, the conclusion is still the same you are going to get more TDR and 1.01% dodge on use with the Glyph and more EH and Health with Heart of Iron.
No, because the EH you get from the trinkets changes depending on your stats. More armor means the Heart of Iron provides more EH, while more health means the Glyph provides more EH. So if you have tons of health but not much armor, the Glyph will provide more EH. Obviously it will still lose in terms of actual health.

Bodasafa
11-29-2009, 04:56 PM
I will get some fully raid buffed stats tomorrow night in our togc 25 raid and post the numbers.

I'm willing to bet that since buffs boost both armor and stam, it will end up being essentially the same. Sure the TDR and EH numbers may fluctuate a bit, but I highly doubt they are going to swing the + and - of each trinket around completely.

Aggathon
11-29-2009, 05:46 PM
The real question:

Is 0.54 TDR a lot or a little in the grand scheme of things?


In my opinion, not if the reduction in damage taken is less than the health you can gain.

Lets say you take 2,000,000 damage in a fight. 0.54 TDR would mean that you would instead take 1,989,200 damage. That's only 10,800 more damage over the course of a 2,000,000 damage fight. That's like 1 holy light, over the course of taking 2 MILLION damage. I don't see this has being significant or a showing of easier healing at all.

In fact, and what my point was originally, is that the leading cause of tank deaths is that they run out of hit points, meaning total damage reduced over the course of a fight means diddly anyways (especially when it's only 10,800 damage). That means they go from full to dead with little to no heals. There are 2 ways a warrior can prevent this (assuming every hit is guarenteed to connect, unavoidable damage, yadda yadda, bare with me here this isn't an avoidance debate right now). 1) they can have more hit points or 2) they can have more armor (slightly reducing the damage done).

If you have an option between two items, and 1 item gives more HP than the other item reduces damage, then the obvious choice in my opinion is to take the item that gives you more HP since it means you are more likely to survive.

Ezanul
11-30-2009, 01:37 PM
From what i'm getting it sounds like the two of you are saying the same thing but coming at it from different points of view.

Agg is saying that having 75K HP will give healers more time to heal you so that you won't go down.

Eza is saying that if you're armor is mitigating all of the damage your healers won't need to heal nearly as much.

Both points are valid, but all of one and none of the other isn't a valid option as with no armor you'll get one/two shot and with all avoidance/armor and no health you're going to get RNG'd sooner than later.

Basically, you just have to figure out of you have enough of both to survive a string of unavoided attacks. My point is that once you have enough of both, I feel armor is better because it requires less total healing throughput to keep a tank topped off.

As for The Black Heart, I found that the up time to be too low to give up the on use provided by the Glyph of Indomitably

Bodasafa
11-30-2009, 02:10 PM
Basically, you just have to figure out of you have enough of both to survive a string of unavoided attacks. My point is that once you have enough of both, I feel armor is better because it requires less total healing throughput to keep a tank topped off.

As for The Black Heart, I found that the up time to be too low to give up the on use provided by the Glyph of Indomitably

I would agree that in that situation armor would be better to smooth out heals once your past a point with HP for content. BUT, the math only shows a 0.54 TDR gain from the Glyph, which seems very small compared to the EH and raw Health of the Heart of Iron.

In theory the overall views of stam and armor I agree with, but im comparing the amounts you get from these 2 trinkets to determine which is better.

Still going to grab some buff numbers tonight to compare, but Im almost 100% that it will still show the same results, with the Glyph losing in every situation.

Ezanul
11-30-2009, 02:35 PM
I think at your gear level you should be pretty safe with either. I use the glyph and have only 38.2k unbuffed HP and have no problems with heroic 25 beasts. If the EH is relatively the same, which in your case it is, the question comes down to personal preference. I use the glyph out of necessity since it is the best trinket I have, I don't have Heart of Iron or the Scarab. You should really ask your healers what they think and how the healing feels to them since from a survival standpoint you are sufficient.

Xianth
12-01-2009, 01:10 AM
To the OP: where exactly are you getting only +0.5% TDR from?

The armor works out as a gain of about 4% less actual physical damage taken compared to without. For example, the trinket gives about 1.5% on your char sheet alone, so (rough figures but used to demonstrate):

Without trinket = 65% Armor DR
Total unavoided damage before armor = 1,000,000

Actual damage taken after armor = (1 - 0.65) * 1,000,000 = 350,000

With trinket = 66.5% Armor DR
Total unavoided damage before armor = 1,000,000

Actual damage taken after armor = (1 - 0.665) * 1,000,000 = 335,000

TDR "gain" from having the trinket equipped compared to having stam:

(3350000/350000) - 1 = 0.0429 = 4.29%


Of course this is all academic, in terms of EHP there's very little to distinguish between them (0.3%) and the on-uses are very similar, so i'm pretty sure you will have equal success using either trinket.

Bodasafa
12-01-2009, 10:28 AM
To the OP: where exactly are you getting only +0.5% TDR from?


I used my base tank gear with Heart of Iron. Ran the numbers through the EH calculator here on tankspot.

Then with that same base gear I plugged in the extra armor from the Glyph, subtracted the health from the Heart and did the calculation.

The calculations provided a EH number and a TDR number.

0.54 TDR was the difference between the 2 calculations (after I had removed the bonus +12% to armor which I concluded in a later post that you do not get from trinkets) with the Glyph having more. 0.54 TDR more.

I did not remember to grab numbers from my buffed stats last night. Ill try and remember to grab them tonight.

Aggathon
12-02-2009, 01:09 AM
Xianth, can you please post screenshots and/or buffed stats/stat decreases and justify your math... I can't figure out what is wrong, but something is bothering me. I cannot for the life of me figure out why 1.5% damage reduction by armor (0.65 vs 0.665) would end up with roughly 4.5% reduced damage, that just doesn't make sense to me.

orcstar
12-02-2009, 02:02 AM
Xianth, can you please post screenshots and/or buffed stats/stat decreases and justify your math... I can't figure out what is wrong, but something is bothering me. I cannot for the life of me figure out why 1.5% damage reduction by armor (0.65 vs 0.665) would end up with roughly 4.5% reduced damage, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Because for the effects you have to look at "remaining damage".
With 65% damage reduction, 35% of damage will get through. (the original situation.)
With 66.5% (65+1.5) damage reduction, 33.5% of damage will get through (the new situation)

How does the new situation differ from the old: ease, you look at how much damage you now get and divide it by the damage you would get in the old situation.
Which would mean divide 33.5% by 35%: 33.5/35=0.95714 which is 95.71%.
So, in the new situation you get 95.71% damage compared to the old situation which is 4.29% less damage.

Xianth
12-02-2009, 02:14 AM
Because for the effects you have to look at "remaining damage".
With 65% damage reduction, 35% of damage will get through. (the original situation.)
With 66.5% (65+1.5) damage reduction, 33.5% of damage will get through (the new situation)

How does the new situation differ from the old: ease, you look at how much damage you now get and divide it by the damage you would get in the old situation.
Which would mean divide 33.5% by 35%: 33.5/35=0.95714 which is 95.71%.
So, in the new situation you get 95.71% damage compared to the old situation which is 4.29% less damage.

Yeh, gains should be calculated on the damage you actuallty take and not in the overall mitgation. It's just like avoidance works, if you go from 98% to 99% avoidance you will take half as many hits as you did before. Just realised I got those back to front so was calculating in the opposite direction, but the example still shows there's about 4% gain anyway

For example (with rough example figures again), when you get hit for 33K in ToGC what you're not seeing is that you're actually getting hit for 100K with 66.6% armor reduction. So, when you get 1% more armor reduction you are reducing the overall damage by 1%, so 1000 damage. However, as this gain eats into the damage you take, it'll be a 32K hit instead of a 33K hit, which is rougly a 3% difference.

Xianth
12-02-2009, 02:35 AM
0.54 TDR was the difference between the 2 calculations (after I had removed the bonus +12% to armor which I concluded in a later post that you do not get from trinkets)

Well something is certainly a miss, seeing as that number should at the very least be as much as the gain on the char sheet (roughly 1.5% at ToC gear levels).

Also, i'm fairly sure that talents and the meta work on bonus armor on trinket and rings etc. If you check in game (unbuffed) just stick the glyph on and you should gain almost exactly 2k armor. I'm positive it's been dicussed on these forums somewhere too, but I have no idea where.

I'll check tonight if i remember.

Aggathon
12-02-2009, 09:50 AM
Ahhh I see, that makes sense now.

Bodasafa
12-02-2009, 01:12 PM
Well something is certainly a miss, seeing as that number should at the very least be as much as the gain on the char sheet (roughly 1.5% at ToC gear levels).

Also, i'm fairly sure that talents and the meta work on bonus armor on trinket and rings etc. If you check in game (unbuffed) just stick the glyph on and you should gain almost exactly 2k armor. I'm positive it's been dicussed on these forums somewhere too, but I have no idea where.

I'll check tonight if i remember.

I checked on: character planner . chardev seven (http://www.chardev.org/?c)

It basically allows you to upload your armor profile and then swap items as if you had them and equipped them in game.

It shows no multiplicative increase from talents or the meta, whereas it does show an increase on normal item slots such as Helm, Chest, ect..

craggan
12-03-2009, 12:52 AM
400 EH is ... nothing... So for this difference, Damage reduction is better than health.

If you need more health that the amount necessary to be still alive after the maximum peak of damage you can take during a fight, it is just that your healers aren't ready for the fight.

If they are, damage reduction is better than health.

Bodasafa
12-07-2009, 10:25 AM
This information in the following link pretty much set the last nail in the Glyph coffin for me, it even has numbers to go with the statements:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/56221-armor-vs-stam-effective-health.html

Sakkura
12-07-2009, 12:58 PM
This information in the following link pretty much set the last nail in the Glyph coffin for me, it even has numbers to go with the statements:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/56221-armor-vs-stam-effective-health.html
"Better" in that case only refers to which grants the most EH. The glyph still has one of the better clicky buffs, as well as the advantage of reducing damage instead of just soaking it. Note that it only compared it with the black heart and satrina's impeding scarab; the heart of iron falls somewhere in between (meaning it's not completely outlandish to see the glyph have more EH, especially for a warrior or DK).
That satrina's will almost always provide more EH than the glyph is not much of a surprise.

Bodasafa
12-07-2009, 03:22 PM
Satrina's Impeding Scarab = 192 Stam
Warrior (Scarab) = 2035 health
Paladin (Scarab) = 2198 health
Bear Druid (Scarab) = 2798 health
DK w/ 3/3 Vot3W (Scarab) = 2096 health
DK w/o Vot3W (Scarab) = 2035 health

None of the classes have a modifier that will change the 1792 armor from the emblem trinket on the baseline (only CD buffs).

In lieu of calculating the value for each class, I'll use 2100 as an average value as the tilt will be very small, even for bears. It will only be on the magnitude of a couple hundred effective health difference for all but bears, and ~1k for bears.

The new math suggests:

* If you have 42k health, the Armor Trinket is better until you have over 19.2k armor.
* If you have 45k health, the Armor Trinket is better until you have over 21.8k armor.
* If you have 48k health, the Armor Trinket is better until you have over 24.3k armor.
* If you have 27k armor, the Stam Trinket is better so long as your health is less than 51.1k.
* If you have 29k armor, the Stam Trinket is better so long as your health is less than 53.5k.
* If you have 31k armor, the Stam Trinket is better so long as your health is less than 55.8k.

So, even without considering magic damage, against physical damage, the stamina trinket will give you more effective health than the armor trinket at most reasonable tank stat values.

The Satrina's in that final comparison was the non-heroic one only 192 stam. Which is only 30 stam more than Heart of Iron. It also referenced the Glyph in that final comparison.

I could be miss understanding the break down, but given my current gear it shows that Stamina would benefit more than armor (at least for me). So I completely agree with the 2 trinkets in this debate are situational, but it would seem the situation is more what gear you have to compliment the trinket and not the encounter itself.

Xianth
12-07-2009, 04:26 PM
The Satrina's in that final comparison was the non-heroic one only 192 stam. Which is only 30 stam more than Heart of Iron. It also referenced the Glyph in that final comparison.

I could be miss understanding the break down, but given my current gear it shows that Stamina would benefit more than armor (at least for me). So I completely agree with the 2 trinkets in this debate are situational, but it would seem the situation is more what gear you have to compliment the trinket and not the encounter itself.


Mathematically better in terms of actual EH value, as opposed to this debate over more EH vs. more dmg reduction.

Raij
12-10-2009, 08:24 PM
Well, I don't have a Heart of Iron, but just comparing (un raid buffed) my EH using a few diff trinkets:

With Black Heart: 118973.15

With Heart proc: 138296.73

With Eittrig(Heroic): 115084.85

With Indom: 119832.04

So it seems just from the calculator itself that at least the Heart beats out the Indom Glyph whilst procced (which is quite often). Also, raid buffs affect stam more-so than armor, so the Heart would only get better, the Glyph slightly worse. They both have benefits however....but this is just rough stats to help me get my mind around it.

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 08:31 PM
So it seems just from the calculator itself that at least the Heart beats out the Indom Glyph whilst procced (which is quite often). Also, raid buffs affect stam more-so than armor, so the Heart would only get better, the Glyph slightly worse. They both have benefits however....but this is just rough stats to help me get my mind around it.

Not necessarily, armor and stam increase eachother. Because stam is hit points and armor effects the damage you take, when you get more stam it is better dependant upon how much armor you have.

Stam increases the value of armor, armor increases the value of stam. Now it is true that armor has a DR curve, but it caps out at 45000(it is 45000, right? or is it 40000... I forget explicitly, pretty sure it's 45000 though) which is 75% reduction. Until you get around 72% or so the DR isn't going to be THAT steep.

It really just all depends on your current levels of stam and armor which one is better. If you have low armor but a really high amount of stam, armor may end up being better, but if you have really high armor but a low amount of stam, then stam is going to be better.

Raij
12-10-2009, 08:40 PM
Not sure on the DR cap, just know that I am sitting at 26808 unbuffed with no procs and am no where near it, although I believe I heard it was 45000. Thing is, Stam is beneficial to more than just melee (where armor will only affect melee hits, and I guess buffer your threat a bit with Armored to the Teeth), so on any fight where there is more than 1 type of damage going around, stam is going to be better.

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 09:07 PM
Not sure on the DR cap, just know that I am sitting at 26808 unbuffed with no procs and am no where near it, although I believe I heard it was 45000. Thing is, Stam is beneficial to more than just melee (where armor will only affect melee hits, and I guess buffer your threat a bit with Armored to the Teeth), so on any fight where there is more than 1 type of damage going around, stam is going to be better.

I agree with you in general, but 3 points here.

1) Edit: I dum
2) that's not necessarily true of the magic or whatever damage no-mitigatible by armor isn't going to kill you. If you assume the worst with physical + magic damge, you take the percents of each to see if having the more armor would mitigate the physical damage more than stam would absorb the magic damage.
3) But yes, you are correct stam helps all forms of damage whereas armor does not. I guess it depends on how many fights tanks might die from something magical on.

Raij
12-10-2009, 09:08 PM
Yah, which is what I am currently unsure of, I haven't seen quite a few of the ICC fights, and no one knows how the hardmodes might play out. But out of the choices I have, I am going to use my Heart until I get the Skeleton Key from badges.

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 09:10 PM
Yah, which is what I am currently unsure of, I haven't seen quite a few of the ICC fights, and no one knows how the hardmodes might play out. But out of the choices I have, I am going to use my Heart until I get the Skeleton Key from badges.

Legit, I'd do the same thing in your shoes, although you are on the low end on armor. I actually don't use the glyph of indominability at all. I didn't even mean to buy it, I bought it to run some exact EHP calculations, then forgot to trade it back in! lol.

Raij
12-10-2009, 09:11 PM
I almost did that, but then just factored in the armor calcs without buying it for the rough result that tipped me back towards heart. It makes me sad that Eitrigg's Oath is so useless...I liked being close to the dodge DR cap. >.>

Aggathon
12-10-2009, 09:17 PM
I almost did that, but then just factored in the armor calcs without buying it for the rough result that tipped me back towards heart. It makes me sad that Eitrigg's Oath is so useless...I liked being close to the dodge DR cap. >.>

isn't the dodge dr softcap like 38% dodge or something? Parry just passes dodge if you have like 20% parry and 28% dodge. I forget all these avoidance numbers because I've never really had to care =/

Raij
12-10-2009, 09:22 PM
Thought softcap for dodge was around 32%, could be wrong however.

Griff
12-11-2009, 04:10 PM
Yes, both points have some validity and the discussion is really kind of academic honestly.

The real utlity of each trinket is largely dependent on the conditions in which it is being used. Concordantly, it would be a better discussion IMHO to figure out what trinket offers the greatest advantage on a per-encounter basis, no?

krc
12-11-2009, 07:30 PM
About 80% of the gormok burst on heroic that will kill you is mitigable while the rest is bleeds. Using TheckHD's N-EH formula on Maintankadin which shows that at 20% magic damage in the burst that kills you, in terms of efficiency it takes 14 armor to make up for 1 stamina.

The Glyph of Indomitability has 1792 armor, divided by 14 means that on Gormok heroic the Glyph of Indomitability's base stats are only worth 128 stamina. I don't think in that situation that the slightly better on use from the Glyph of Indomitability will make up for 34 stamina worth of EH.

But for purely physical damage in the burst that kills you the Glyph of Indomitability's armor is worth around the same amount of EH as the Heart of Iron's stamina so it isn't much of a contest because of the Glyph's use.

Xianth
12-14-2009, 07:55 AM
isn't the dodge dr softcap like 38% dodge or something? Parry just passes dodge if you have like 20% parry and 28% dodge. I forget all these avoidance numbers because I've never really had to care =/


The DR cap of dodge is like 80% or something, not sure what is meant by a "DR soft cap" when it comes to something that is just a plain curve with a "start" and an "end".

Halrloprillalar
01-12-2010, 11:19 AM
use both (glyph and HoI), IMO. Keep Satrina's for epeen flexing in pugs. Or magic fights. Or something. I hardly ever use it tbh.

Why GOI/HOI combo? the use cd on the two is not shared [personally tested]. == extra survival cd (something like 15% more dodge for 20s). Macro them together. This has saved me quite a few times in a variety of fights.

EH is only one number to go by for a given fight. Most times you can anticipate getting smushed, that's why we have cds. Having one extra is more important than 400EH, imo.

krc
01-12-2010, 01:23 PM
use both (glyph and HoI), IMO. Keep Satrina's for epeen flexing in pugs. Or magic fights. Or something. I hardly ever use it tbh.

Why GOI/HOI combo? the use cd on the two is not shared [personally tested]. == extra survival cd (something like 15% more dodge for 20s). Macro them together. This has saved me quite a few times in a variety of fghts.

If you are looking at it from a CD point of view wouldn't a Satrina Glyph or HOI combo make sense? Satrina's on use works against magic damage as well as physical and Satrina's doesn't rely on RNG too miss the ability since it is a straight 4k health. Satrina's also has more EH especially in a high magic damage situation against the Glyph making it a win win.

I would use Satrina/Glyph combo if the damage is pure physical and a Satrina/HOI combo if the damage that kills the tank is more than 10% magic.

Halrloprillalar
01-18-2010, 09:22 AM
The reason I suggest this combo is our beloved CotT debuff. After CotT your avoidance is around 25-30%, adding a temporary 15% is a pretty massive boost in survivability.

But to reply to krc, I guess it depends on what you're blowing your cds against. If it's unavoidable damage then there's no question that Satrina's is better. But if it's a massive barrage of fast hard hits and you maybe dropping on heals (example: one OT on marrowgar dies, one of the tank healers gets impaled, etc.) I'd say HOI/GOI use combo is probably better unless you're blowing SI along with Satrina's.

Aggathon
01-18-2010, 11:12 AM
The reason I suggest this combo is our beloved CotT debuff. After CotT your avoidance is around 25-30%, adding a temporary 15% is a pretty massive boost in survivability.

But to reply to krc, I guess it depends on what you're blowing your cds against. If it's unavoidable damage then there's no question that Satrina's is better. But if it's a massive barrage of fast hard hits and you maybe dropping on heals (example: one OT on marrowgar dies, one of the tank healers gets impaled, etc.) I'd say HOI/GOI use combo is probably better unless you're blowing SI along with Satrina's.

CotT should not change your gearing/avoidnace choices at all.

And actually your avoidance should be closer to 40%, you're forgetting about miss. (5% base chance for boss to miss + miss from defense).

Bodasafa
01-18-2010, 01:24 PM
Wow this threads still going.

After picking up GoI I found it to be quite useful. So I carry both.

I use Satrina's all the time and pair it with HoI for higher magic damage fights or use GoI for higher physical fights.

Really the moral of the story is get both and use them accordingly. Unless you happen to have the Organ of Putricide 10 which would replace the Glyph imo.