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emsteiner
11-23-2009, 06:48 PM
I hit the 540 defense rating now what should I focus on? BTW I am a noob to Tanking so please be gentle and I have spent hours searching through threads and have not found a answer.

AxLxExX
11-23-2009, 06:56 PM
Run heroics. Get better gear. Get more stamina.

krc
11-23-2009, 07:04 PM
Right now in current content the main stats you should be focusing on is EH(armor and stamina) without completely neglecting avoidance and expertise. The reason you should stack EH is because of the way encounters are made. Almost every boss that will kill you is done by unavoidable damage and unpredictable physical burst. The only thing that can really prevent these deaths is by stacking EH. Tankspot has an EH calculator so you can calculate the correct balance between stamina and armor for your gear level.

Giliandrix
11-23-2009, 10:17 PM
If you want some specific advice, post your armory.

Kurtosis
11-24-2009, 12:07 AM
After 540 defense, the next highest priorities are 264 Hit rating (8% hit chance) and 26 Expertise. After that, EH (stam/armor), then avoidance (dodge, parry, block). (As a DK I'm not sure whether block is mitigation or avoidance, will let you look that one up)

Without high enough hit and expertise, your threat will suck and you won't be able to hold aggro, b/c your strikes will simply miss too much (at least against lvl 82 minibosses and 83 bosses). Then when you lose aggro and the boss runs off to kill a healer, your taunt will fail also b/c it depends on hit. Healer will die, raid will wipe, and you'll become known as a fail tank b/c you couldn't control the boss, your #1 job.

I've seen this multiple times with new 80 tanks (wars, dk's, and pallies) who were told to get 540 defense then stack health and dodge, or Str, or something else, to the neglect of hit and expertise. You can try it, but I can guarantee you'll be re-gemming and re-enchanting for hit and exp shortly after anyway.

Varagar
11-24-2009, 10:38 AM
I've seen this multiple times with new 80 tanks (wars, dk's, and pallies) who were told to get 540 defense then stack health and dodge, or Str, or something else, to the neglect of hit and expertise. You can try it, but I can guarantee you'll be re-gemming and re-enchanting for hit and exp shortly after anyway.

I simply have never found this to be true. But again, my gear has scaled with my DPSs the entire expansion, so my stats naturally have gone us as theirs have, and I've always maintained a good threat lead. I don't know of a single raid tank who doesn't value EH above all else, and pretty much ignores all other gem types (with the rare exception where a socket bonus applies that makes it worth it) other than Solid Majestic Zircon.

AxLxExX
11-24-2009, 10:45 AM
So by the exp/hit logic, it would be better for a heroic tank to have 25k HP and be hit/exp capped? or 30k and under both caps...

I was under the impression that when starting to gear, getting more health is top priority. You can hold threat like a god, but if you can't stay alive there's no point.

The number one cause of death in wow is running out of hit points (joke)

krc
11-24-2009, 10:49 AM
264 hit and 26 expertise are by no means needed. You only need those if you are having threat problems and if you are having it is most likely because of you pressing the wrong buttons no a lick of hit and expertise.

Bashal
11-24-2009, 10:49 AM
So by the exp/hit logic, it would be better for a heroic tank to have 25k HP and be hit/exp capped? or 30k and under both caps...

I was under the impression that when starting to gear, getting more health is top priority. You can hold threat like a god, but if you can't stay alive there's no point.

The number one cause of death in wow is running out of hit points (joke)

When I still needed upgrades from heroics, I used to heal tanks with 24k health all the time without any issue. It's a heroic, not a raid. They're not that rough, really.

Realistically, if you are just geared enough for heroics, you won't be hit, expertise AND defense capped.

AxLxExX
11-24-2009, 10:51 AM
When I still needed upgrades form heroics, I used to heal tanks with 24k health all the time without any issue. It's a heroic, not a raid. They're not that rough, really.

Yeah, but I'm saying for a new tank, health > threat stats.

Bashal
11-24-2009, 10:52 AM
Yeah, but I'm saying for a new tank, health > threat stats.

Holding the mobs against AoE is good, mk? :)

Varagar
11-24-2009, 03:05 PM
Holding the mobs against AoE is good, mk? :)

I disagree with this as well. This is a plague that infects most every DPS mind set on every server. I always start out by telling them the kill order is Skull->X->Rest and to please hold off on so much AoE damage as it puts an unnecessary strain on me as a Warrior. I've not gotten a complaint as long as I've made it clear beforehand.

Now my guildmates, on the other hand, will intentionally try to pull aggro from me just to give me hell. (And in some cases, I will purposfully not get it back.)

But, yes, as a general rule Health > * for Tanks.

Bovinity
11-24-2009, 03:38 PM
After 540 defense, the next highest priorities are 264 Hit rating (8% hit chance) and 26 Expertise. After that, EH (stam/armor), then avoidance (dodge, parry, block). (As a DK I'm not sure whether block is mitigation or avoidance, will let you look that one up

This is almost absolutely the opposite of what I would recommend doing. Unless you are truly having issues with threat, there's no reason at all to go gemming for hit/expertise when first gearing your tank up.

Threat is managable, getting gibbed due to low HP/Armor (And arguably avoidance sometimes) isn't. And like others said, most of the time threat issues are more a result of rotation problems than actual threat stats.

emsteiner
11-24-2009, 04:09 PM
Here is my armory The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Whisperwind&cn=Shaanon&gn=Lords+of+War) I know I have some subpar gear but I am working on it. Tanks for the help.

emsteiner
11-24-2009, 04:13 PM
264 hit and 26 expertise are by no means needed. You only need those if you are having threat problems and if you are having it is most likely because of you pressing the wrong buttons no a lick of hit and expertise.

So what buttons should I be hitting? What is a good rotation? Currently I do this SS, Devastate, Revenge, HS.

krc
11-24-2009, 06:34 PM
You rotation seems pretty good for single target if you want maximum threat it's SS Devastate, for a mix between between threat and damage SS, revenge, Devastate and for a non threat intensive fight at all SS, Revenge, Conc blow, SW, Devastate. Make sure you are ALWAYS spamming HS.

AxLxExX
11-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Holding the mobs against AoE is good, mk? :)

But you're going off that silly dps mindset that is completely wrong. It's not the tank's job to make sure he's above your "zomg i want high dps numbers" threat, it's a team effort. Because the tank may be lacking in threat, take the dps down a notch or 2. It's a heroic. It's not a bleeding edge raid where a DPS underperforming means a failed attempt.

So a new tank can't out threat a mage who's AoE spamming. Part of being a good player is making the whole group do better, not just yourself.


Having enough health to survive a pull is better, mk?

Kurtosis
11-24-2009, 07:19 PM
So by the exp/hit logic, it would be better for a heroic tank to have 25k HP and be hit/exp capped? or 30k and under both caps...

I was under the impression that when starting to gear, getting more health is top priority. You can hold threat like a god, but if you can't stay alive there's no point.

The number one cause of death in wow is running out of hit points (joke)
Part of becoming a good tank is experimenting with some of this stuff yourself. Empirical evidence > theorycrafting, most of the time. It sounds like plenty of people have had a different experience w/ hit and expertise than I have, so I recommend you test out both yourself.

Just remember, taunts and other spell-like abilities require hit too, and more expertise reduces mob parry haste, which reduces dmg on the tank slightly. Those stats are not just for threat.

Having said that, 25k is plenty of health to tank 5man heroics. I started at 22k, and though that was a little challenging on the healers (back when 5mans still dropped Emblems of Heroism at least), it was viable. It got comfortable when I hit 25k.

Aggathon
11-24-2009, 07:27 PM
Holding the mobs against AoE is good, mk? :)

I hear hitting cleave is hard.

Seriously though, I've been known to do heroics in my unhittable set for shiggles and gits. I have 22 hit and ungodly low expertise in that set. I also have almost no rage generation against mobs that aren't attacking me 4 at a time 4 times every second. I just hit cleave and I hold aggro fine between cleave, tclap, and shockwave. Really... AoE threat isn't that hard unless it's like TONS of mobs, in which case, hit tclap, shockwave, tclap, and shield block(for extra BV towards damage shield) and hope that they die before either the shockwave stun is up or they out threat tclap+dmg shield threat.

Kurtosis
11-24-2009, 07:28 PM
And yes, DPS should be learning how to focus-fire using an assist macro, or watching your skulled target, not AoE'ing the whole fight. Try the Skullme addon (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/skull-me.aspx) for simple on-the-fly target marking, or Automark (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/automark.aspx) for more flexible but complex.

The assist macro is simple as well:

/tar TankName
/assist
You can't expect pugs to use that, but your guildies should be. Skullme is great for pugs.

jafager
11-24-2009, 08:29 PM
I disagree here. I always found steady, even AoE damage to be pretty easy to deal with.

What always tripped me up is when I had a moonkin doing Hurricane and a mage doing Blizzard and then a Fury warrior shredding the crap out of a single random mob.

Bashal
11-25-2009, 07:29 AM
But you're going off that silly dps mindset that is completely wrong...

That's not what I meant, exactly. The response was meant to be a little tongue-in-cheek, if that didn't come through, my apologies.

There's a certain minimum health you need to survive, but we're talking about heroics here, not Algalon. The minimum EH is pretty low. It's ok to go for a little threat, is all I mean. It lets the mobs die a little faster. As you get better gear, gem and chant it more for raids in mind, with higher EH.

Bashal
11-25-2009, 07:34 AM
The assist macro is simple as well:

I have a slightly different assist macro:

/assist [target=focus]

This of course assumes you aren't using your focus frame for anything else, but it does prevent you from having to rewrite the macro whenever you run with another tank. Just set the tank as your focus, and mash the button.

AxLxExX
11-25-2009, 07:48 AM
Yeah but even still. When WotLK came out and we were all gearing as tanks, when we ran heroics we weren't trying to find hit gear (at least I wasn't, and the other tanks I knew weren't). The way we did it was go for EH and then when you get into raids, that's when you start going for threat stats.

Bashal
11-25-2009, 08:02 AM
when we ran heroics we weren't trying to find hit gear

The hit gear finds you, lol. To my recollection, there's a fair amount of tank gear with hit on it in the lower tiers.

I'm also thinking of now as opposed to when people first started dinging 80. You're going to have some rather overgeared people in your groups. No matter what you do, if you're only gear-appropriate, they'll have to hold back of course. It doesn't hurt though to concede that things have changed a bit since then, and try to accommodate that a bit by thinking about threat.

HDEagle71
11-25-2009, 08:08 AM
Looking at your armory you have more than replace enough stam but when you logged out you are not def capped yet 527.

*Replace shield enchant with +def
*Replace wrists with tempered saronite (lower level but high def) keep the threat enchant on these.
*Get wormrest accord and the cloak you get from exhaulted willl last you forever high def.
* Enchant cloak with the +16 def enchanter or AH the enchant
*Looks like you are running HToc from the sword so farm that to get the shoulder drop. Unfortunately I got it the day after spending the badges for shoulders :mad:
*Your shoulder enchant is for dpsing not tanking winter grasp vendor has a great one with resilience or hodir the one that has def. *If you run HCoT then you can get a better shield at the end even if you fail the timed portion. I see it drop a lot so it should not be to hard to acquire.
*You can upgrade you legs enchant to the 55 stam enchant
*Mark of Relentless ring is good don't remember where it drops has a gem slot +exp,dodge and parry.
*See if you can get some friends to run NORMAL AN the trinket drop is +70 def helps a ton.
* I used HOL trinket drop forever as well farm the end boss Loken there until you get it.
Badges for chest, head then hands, wrist,neck and feet (spiked deathdealers if you have the $$$)
I would regem neck for +20 stam not +10 stats as you gem for hit and expertise.

You are not hit capped and no expertise which from my understanding is very important for warriors.

Since you have a lot of avoidance stats dodge etc and you should have hit and expertise first this should not be to hard as you can give up some health to achieve this.

If you logged out in pvp gear I appologize for these incorrect comments :D