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View Full Version : Unidentifiable Organ. Nifty new trinket in ICC



Takethecake
11-20-2009, 03:08 PM
Posted about this trinket earlier today but the post was deleted by a moderator? No clue why since it's actually dropping on the PTR currently and isn't data mined.

Figured I hadn't noticed it yet and wanted to point it out to others as something to look forward to in 10 man ICC.

Unidentifiable Organ
Heroic
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
2128 Armor
Requires Level 80
Item Level 264
Equip: Each time you are struck by a melee attack, you have a 60% chance to gain 27 stamina for the next 10 sec, stacking up to 10 times.
Sell Price: 11 39 40

MellvarTank
11-20-2009, 03:16 PM
They take Data mining very seriously, so having glanced at it they may have removed the post to further investigate. Looks like a nifty trinket.

Ion
11-20-2009, 03:19 PM
60% chance on being hit makes it kinda wonky...even w/20% less dodge it'll still be fairly easy to get bad luck and have the stacks drop off.

Will work well with trash packs though.

Kazeyonoma
11-20-2009, 03:23 PM
Apologies, last I read it was datamined so was playing it safe. If it was indeed dropping off the PTR then I'll leave it up.

Martie
11-20-2009, 03:24 PM
2 attacks per 10 seconds gives about 84% uptime, 3 attacks per 10 seconds about 93% uptime.
Unless bosses have a higher attack speed in ICC, it's unreliable.

I'll pick it up for the armor, though.

Kazeyonoma
11-20-2009, 03:35 PM
bosses swing approximately every 2 seconds right? so in 10 seconds that's 5 swings, 5 swings with 40% avoidance is 60% landed hits, so 5*.6 = 3 attacks per 10 seconds, about 93% uptime.

Ubast
11-20-2009, 04:13 PM
so with a 93 % up time this tinket could be worth saying it a 270 stam trinket as well?

Sakkura
11-20-2009, 04:23 PM
so with a 93 % up time this tinket could be worth saying it a 270 stam trinket as well?
Not a full 270 stamina trinket. I'd personally consider using other cooldowns in the periods of time that the buff will fall off/reset. That way, you'll get a constant significant improvement.

Adding the fairly high uptime stamina with the armor means it's a fantastic trinket. As I remarked in one of the deleted threads, it's nice to see tanks finally getting a trinket that stacks a stat. Healers and DPSers have had (a few of) those for a while now.
Of course, their versions don't have the aspect of this trinket, with the stacks dropping once in a while, but if that liability lets Blizzard stack more stats on our version then I can live with it.

Airowird
11-20-2009, 05:33 PM
bosses swing approximately every 2 seconds right? so in 10 seconds that's 5 swings, 5 swings with 40% avoidance is 60% landed hits, so 5*.6 = 3 attacks per 10 seconds, about 93% uptime.
5 swings * 60% chance to connect * 60% chance to actually proc = 1.8 procs per 10 seconds or somewhere around 75-80% 'uptime'. I'ld rate it at about 100-150 Stamina, given the fact you need to stack it all the time.

If I ever get my Warrior into ToC I'll pick it up for those melee DW gimmicks. That and it beats seeing it get sharded :P

jettzypher
11-20-2009, 05:34 PM
the name is odd,;just think if this was real. i wouldnt want to carry an unidentified organ from god knows what around.

Kazeyonoma
11-20-2009, 06:03 PM
Thanks for the clarification WarTotem, I was just going by the above posters numbers =P

Libicocco
11-20-2009, 11:38 PM
Well, this is the heroic version of course - and don't forget that the stacking stamina is only half the trinket, it ALSO comes with a nice helping of armor. Yummy.

And apparently it drops in the gunship battle, so we can start looking for it right away when 3.3 hits.

Baervar
11-21-2009, 01:33 AM
5 swings * 60% chance to connect * 60% chance to actually proc = 1.8 procs per 10 seconds or somewhere around 75-80% 'uptime'. I'ld rate it at about 100-150 Stamina, given the fact you need to stack it all the time.

If I ever get my Warrior into ToC I'll pick it up for those melee DW gimmicks. That and it beats seeing it get sharded :P

You'll also have less avoidance in ICC - i'm guessing around 25% to start with, maybe more as you gear up - so it would probably 5*075*0.6 = 2.25 procs per 10 secs.

Definitely worth it for fast hitting bosses and trash/lots of adds fights, for other ones people may want to change it, thought that mitigation on it still makes it look VERY nice.

Kazeyonoma
11-21-2009, 02:37 AM
Uhhhh, I'm at 60% avoidance right now so -20% will put me around 40% hence 60% chance to connect * 60% chance to actually proc. 25% avoidance? meaning you're sitting at 45% avoidance pre-chill? That's uh....hard to believe.

Darksend
11-21-2009, 10:02 AM
Uhhhh, I'm at 60% avoidance right now so -20% will put me around 40% hence 60% chance to connect * 60% chance to actually proc. 25% avoidance? meaning you're sitting at 45% avoidance pre-chill? That's uh....hard to believe.

druids only have about 49% dodge in full 258 gear raid buffed, and that is with the idol agi proc. I personally have 1.5% chance to be missed from defense, since I am no longer a night elf man that is an overpowered racial.

Kazeyonoma
11-21-2009, 10:37 AM
Ah bears, gotcha!

Bovinity
11-21-2009, 12:40 PM
Well, fully buffed and considering Mongoose/Idol procs I think I'm just over 50% dodge at times. Consider the 1% or so miss from defense and 5% natural miss and even with Chill there will probably be times when us bears are more likely to not get a proc in those 10 seconds than we are to get one.

Reev
11-21-2009, 12:55 PM
60% chance to be hit means being hit 3 times per 10 seconds. Each time has a chance to proc, and 1 proc maintains the buff. Chance of not proccing the trinket in those 3 hits is .4*.4*.4 = 6.4% chance to not proc.

For each 10 seconds, there should be a 6.4% chance to drop the buff. Otherwise, it will keep stacking. Not sure where 75-80% uptime comes from, since 1 proc per 10 seconds will keep the buff stacking.

Reev
11-21-2009, 12:57 PM
Of course, the reality won't come out that clean, since in reality you'll get hit 5 times in 10 seconds sometimes and 1 time in 10 seconds other times, so that significantly increases the real risk of dropping the buff.

Martie
11-21-2009, 01:30 PM
5 swings * 60% chance to connect * 60% chance to actually proc = 1.8 procs per 10 seconds or somewhere around 75-80% 'uptime'. I'ld rate it at about 100-150 Stamina, given the fact you need to stack it all the time.

If I ever get my Warrior into ToC I'll pick it up for those melee DW gimmicks. That and it beats seeing it get sharded :P
You can't have 1.8 procs per ten seconds. You have either one or two.
Since the entire stack falls off when it doesn't proc within those ten seconds, this aspect of the math is important.
Going with 40% avoidance...
Swing #1 has a 0.36 chance of proccing it before it drops off.
Swing #2 has a 0.64 (1-0.36) chance of being needed.
Swing #3 has a 0.230 (1-0.36*0.64) chance of being needed.
Swing #4 has a 0.083 (1-0.36*0.230) chance of being needed.
Swing #5 has a 0.030 (1-0.36*0.083) chance of being needed.
Swing #6 has a 0.011 (1-0.36*0.030) chance of being needed.

That tells me there's roughly a 1% chance for it to fall off during every 10 second window when 5<(attacks per five seconds)<6 .
1% may sound slim, but it's a large enough chance for it to happen.

I personally wouldn't count on the proc for saving my life.

What I'm wondering about is what the proc actually does. Would it give you the stamina as full or empty health? If it gives the stamina as full health, it's a nice little healing addition untill the stack reaches full, and it dropping off may actually be more beneficial then keeping it up.

Ulosthegame
11-21-2009, 10:48 PM
You seem to forget that bosses in ICC will be attacking faster than normal bosses, I'd assume this to have a 100% uptime on bosses, as the effect doesn't just last 10 seconds, it's like Solace of The Defeated, the timer restarts each time a stack is applied.

meaning, after you've got 10 stacks, you're getting a constant 270 stam and 2128 armor.
I have a feeling this will be one of the BiS, along with Corroded Skeleton Key, which is a base 228 stamina.

krc
11-22-2009, 06:10 AM
ICC bosses are not going to be attacking faster they just are going to be connecting attacks more because of Chill of the Throne.

Airowird
11-22-2009, 11:39 AM
1.8procs every 10s = 10.8 PPM. Never did I discuss the exact # of procs in 10s (although the average would end up to be 1.8 in this situation)

The global formula for the stack is:
Average time to build: 5 * time between swings / (chance to connect * proc chance) = 5 * 2s / .36 = 27.78s
Add the chance that it might fall off, you can safely assume 30s for it to get to full.

Chance the buff drops: (1 - chance to refresh) ^ (duration / time between chances) = (1 - .36) ^ 5 = 10.7% chance
Time to drop off = duration / chance to drop off = 93.13s
So you build it up for ~30s and after that it will stick for about 93s. (Let's say 90 to be safe and keep math easy)
270 sta for 90+ + ~135 for 30s over a total of 120s = 236.25 sta on average.
The 90s/120s also corresponds to the 75%ish uptime of the full stack.

Worst part of it all: The sta gives only empty maxHP, so it takes another 2-3 sec before it's healed up to full and it actually becomes 'useful'

Martie
11-22-2009, 03:13 PM
The global formula for the stack is:
Average time to build: 5 * time between swings / (chance to connect * proc chance) = 5 * 2s / .36 = 27.78s
Add the chance that it might fall off, you can safely assume 30s for it to get to full.
I think you did something wrong in your math here - at a 2s attack speed, 30 seconds is 15 swings. At a 60% proc chance, even 15 hits wouldn't stack it to ten on average. (Since there is a .36 chance for it to proc, I'd say you need (1/.36)*10 swings to stack it to ten on average. That would be 27.78 swings.)


Chance the buff drops: (1 - chance to refresh) ^ (duration / time between chances) = (1 - .36) ^ 5 = 10.7% chance
Time to drop off = duration / chance to drop off = 93.13s
So you build it up for ~30s and after that it will stick for about 93s. (Let's say 90 to be safe and keep math easy)
270 sta for 90+ + ~135 for 30s over a total of 120s = 236.25 sta on average.
The 90s/120s also corresponds to the 75%ish uptime of the full stack.
I think the average here is rather dangerous - what I want to know is something completely different. What is the chance of it dropping off in twenty seconds? What is the chance of it dropping off in fifty seconds?
I'd really like to see a time/stillup chance graph.

Martie
11-22-2009, 03:15 PM
You seem to forget that bosses in ICC will be attacking faster than normal bosses, I'd assume this to have a 100% uptime on bosses, as the effect doesn't just last 10 seconds, it's like Solace of The Defeated, the timer restarts each time a stack is applied.

meaning, after you've got 10 stacks, you're getting a constant 270 stam and 2128 armor.
I have a feeling this will be one of the BiS, along with Corroded Skeleton Key, which is a base 228 stamina.
That's what you can use my numbers for - every time it procs, there is an 1% chance of it dropping off ten seconds later when you are taking between five and six attacks per ten seconds.

cobs
11-26-2009, 04:19 PM
Isn't 40% avoidance too high? My (not so geared) pally is sitting at 23.5 dodge and 19.3 parry. In ICC the dodge will be 3.5 and parry remains at 19.3. giving 22.8% avoidance. Now these numbers are from an under geared tank and unbuffed but lets say 30% at most. This is of course assuming that blocks DON'T count for stacking this type of on hit proc. If this question has already been looked into then I retract my statements but I think blocks are considered 'hits' in this scenario aren't they? Unless the hit is completely blocked (i.e. not bosses).

Synapse
11-26-2009, 04:24 PM
There's also a base 5% miss chance bosses have against you, plus a similar amount given from defense.

Regill
11-26-2009, 05:15 PM
Let me see if I can summarize all the math in this thread.

If the boss dual wields, its up 100%
If your tanking 2 or more mobs, its up 100%
If the boss attacks really fast, its up 100%
If none of that applies, it is still up ~80%

2k armor, and at least over 200 stamina on average. On a single trinket. I have to just shake my head in disbelief comparing this to corpse tongue coin. Do blizz item designers just throw darts at a wall? Do they have any concept how good this is compared to the piece of junk that is corpse tongue?

Anyways, Unidentifiable organ is so far better than any other trinket option, that I see no reason not to use both the normal and heroic versions. Given that one procs 24 stam, the other procs 27 stam, it is a fair assumption that you could maintain both procs. I don't suppose anyone has both on ptr and can confirm?

Time to start praying before every gunship 10 kill.

Fenier
11-26-2009, 06:01 PM
Anyways, Unidentifiable organ is so far better than any other trinket option, that I see no reason not to use both the normal and heroic versions.


Last I checked it said Unique with any item with the same item name. Means you can't use both.

Aggathon
11-26-2009, 06:52 PM
It's unique with itself, but not the heroic version. At least that's how the ToGC trinkets worked.

What I think people also aren't considering, if the stam buff is up a lot of other warrior abilities get better. The new T10 4 set bonus, last stand, enraged regen. I'll take a 80% uptime + static armor any day. This trinket seems like pure win to me, especially considering how bad most of the other ones have been.

Xianth
11-27-2009, 01:38 AM
Anyways, Unidentifiable organ is so far better than any other trinket option, that I see no reason not to use both the normal and heroic versions. Given that one procs 24 stam, the other procs 27 stam, it is a fair assumption that you could maintain both procs. I don't suppose anyone has both on ptr and can confirm?
.

Yeh this is what I was wonderign over the weekend, I really hope the procs are indepedant (as they give different amounts anyway) as it would be a pretty insane dual trinket combo.

Wilhem
11-27-2009, 09:37 AM
It's unique with itself, but not the heroic version. At least that's how the ToGC trinkets worked.

Didn't they change the way normal/heroic trinkets worked so that they can not be worn together anymore?

Aggathon
11-27-2009, 08:45 PM
Didn't they change the way normal/heroic trinkets worked so that they can not be worn together anymore?

I still use 2 Jug's vitalities, although I can only use the on use effect of one of them.

Maelstrom
11-28-2009, 08:26 AM
They've added special Unique-ItemName tags for ICC, to prevent you wearing the normal and heroic versions of items. e.g.

Corpse Tongue Coin - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50352/corpse-tongue-coin/)

Has the "Unique: Corpse Tongue Coin (1)" tag.

Hobnob
11-28-2009, 08:29 AM
Thats a shame. they just dont want you to gather up 2 imba trinkets together.

Aggathon
11-28-2009, 03:19 PM
They've added special Unique-ItemName tags for ICC, to prevent you wearing the normal and heroic versions of items. e.g.

Corpse Tongue Coin - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50352/corpse-tongue-coin/)

Has the "Unique: Corpse Tongue Coin (1)" tag.

They did that with ToC though, and that's what I was saying. The tag ended up meaning that you couldn't get another normal corpse tongue, but you could get a heroic one.

makiwara
01-12-2010, 04:46 PM
Just got this roughly 20 mins after I read this thread. Using it with heroic Juggernaut's Vitality. Will post results after tonight's 25 m raid in 1hr 15 min.

Moridin
01-12-2010, 07:11 PM
Agg, can't be bothered actually finding the blue post stating it, but yes, the normal and heroic version of a trinken CANNOT be worn together, but you may have both sitting in your bag etc. They did not however, go back and change the ToC trinkets to fit this model.

Aggathon
01-13-2010, 12:03 AM
Agg, can't be bothered actually finding the blue post stating it, but yes, the normal and heroic version of a trinken CANNOT be worn together, but you may have both sitting in your bag etc. They did not however, go back and change the ToC trinkets to fit this model.

Duly noted, thanks for the update sir.

Zo
01-13-2010, 10:22 AM
Is there still any need for logs ? We got extremely lucky last night 3 10man groups 3 trinkets.I was planning on running instances all day with it on including a full ToGC25 clear tonight I think... If you want the info I can post it up later tonight.

steadymobn
01-13-2010, 11:24 AM
seems like every guild i know had one of these drop on their first kill, i dammit LOST the roll lol, now watch it NEVER drop again,,, /wrists

but are ppl so far forgetting that most likely it will drop off simply due to tanks switching

marrowgar whirlwinds i dodge/miss/parry alot probably falls off

deathwhisper have to taunt after each what 3 debuffs, will fall off

gunship, will fall off

saurfang will fall off every rune blood

festergutt will probably fall off every time he stops to inhale and doesnt attack you.

rotface should stay up, but could fall off when u run him to the outside of the room when blob explodes

putricide should stay up, but is going to fall off when he does the stun..

and every other fight in ICC has some sort of tank swap or phases where they fly up or do something odd...

Zo
01-13-2010, 11:31 AM
Don't get tunnel vision focusing on the proc. While it is nice on a very heavy physical fight the 1890 armor is what's really nice. In most cases the proc is the icing not the cake.

Dreadski
01-13-2010, 11:32 AM
but are ppl so far forgetting that most likely it will drop off simply due to tanks switching

marrowgar - hardly important in non-heroic, how often are you using the glyph cooldown when it's needed where this won't be useful?

deathwhisper - again, hardly a difficult fight in non-heroic as long as the interrupts are on key and you don't stand in lol and decay

gunship - do you really care? if you're jumping over you won't be there long enough (sans achievement that is) to where it will even stack up to 5. if you are doing the achievement it will stay up as long as you need it

saurfang will fall off every rune blood - true, will stack back up too. no reason to not carry other trinkets

festergutt will probably fall off every time he stops to inhale and doesnt attack you. - he doesn't stop hitting you for 10 seconds unless taunted. no boss does anything like that.

rotface - will be up the entire fight, even if you kite him

putricide should stay up, but is going to fall off when he does the stun.. - i'm not sure how long tear gas lasts, but i'll let you know after tonight


and every other fight in ICC has some sort of tank swap or phases where they fly up or do something odd...

And when you see those fights feel free to report.

krc
01-13-2010, 02:14 PM
Don't get tunnel vision focusing on the proc. While it is nice on a very heavy physical fight the 1890 armor is what's really nice. In most cases the proc is the icing not the cake.

The proc is what really seperates it from the other trinkets, in pure EH 1890 armor is worth only around 170-175 stamina making the proc make or break it.

Aggathon
01-13-2010, 04:18 PM
The proc is what really seperates it from the other trinkets, in pure EH 1890 armor is worth only around 170-175 stamina making the proc make or break it.

^ This, but with only 2 stacks, 175 + 48 = 223 stam. At 3 stacks it's the best EHP trinket in the game, and at 10 stacks it's just f***ing absurd.

Zo
01-13-2010, 07:43 PM
Yea, I was exaggerating a little bit but Agga is right 3 stacks is what makes it $$$. So far from playing around in heroics today it seems to hover around 4 stacks ( Running a set tuned for 5mans 64.48% Avoid including block). Hopefully gonna clear ToGC25 in an hour or so but all in all so far I'm pretty pleased with the trinket.

Kazeyonoma
01-14-2010, 11:30 AM
picked this up, got it stacked to 10 several times, but agreed, probably averages out around 2-3 stacks, which is good enough for me! can finally put away black heart! ;P

Kojiyama
01-16-2010, 06:59 AM
Well, the uptime for this has already been modeled in another thread and everything from the data confirms the model... so we don't really need to re-model it every week or so. ;)

Given the average uptime on basically any boss in ICC, it is the best EH trinket currently known or available. That's all there is to it, really.

Bovinity
01-16-2010, 08:48 AM
Getting a lot of conflicting info on the average stack uptime, people who have it on Maintankadin and other sites are reporting absolutely abysmal amounts of stamina from it.

Granted, the armor is great, but from a bear perspective with our stupidly high reliance on stamina, I'm still a little wary of this thing. =/

Kojiyama
01-16-2010, 02:03 PM
The average uptime should be around 4.something stacks in most cases. That's more than enough to make it the best EH trinket when combined with the Armor.

This is for Warriors, though, so it could be slightly different for Druids but as Armor's EH value scales with Health and Druids have tons of Health, I wouldn't imagine it being much different results unless you are already Armor-capped.

However, based on the numbers I've seen, unless you are Armor-capped it should be the best EH trinket regardless of class. It does not actually need high average stacks to reach this classification.

If you are doing a magical damage fight where the Armor isn't very valuable, you'll probably be better off with Sindragosa's Fang--but considering the Use: effect on it, that was kinda a no-brainer anyway.

Martie
01-17-2010, 05:51 PM
The average uptime should be around 4.something stacks in most cases. That's more than enough to make it the best EH trinket when combined with the Armor.
It will never have a 4stack for more then 10 seconds, so this 'average' thing is actually the case relatively little during the raid.

"Average uptime" is a really dangerous thing to use here, especially if you consider it over an entire raid in ICC and the way those fights work. What I want to know is the chance for the stack to fall off when I'm tanking Festergut when he's 3stack bloated, or the chance for it to fall off when I'm tanking putricide in p3. When I'm not tanking them, it'll fall off, no surprise there.

Kojiyama
01-18-2010, 12:59 AM
It will never have a 4stack for more then 10 seconds, so this 'average' thing is actually the case relatively little during the raid.

"Average uptime" is a really dangerous thing to use here, especially if you consider it over an entire raid in ICC and the way those fights work. What I want to know is the chance for the stack to fall off when I'm tanking Festergut when he's 3stack bloated, or the chance for it to fall off when I'm tanking putricide in p3. When I'm not tanking them, it'll fall off, no surprise there.

What exactly do you base this statement on it 'never' having a 4 stack for more than 10 seconds? Some fights, sure, but certainly not all fights.

The 4-ish stack is the true statistical average in most cases, meaning sometimes it will be lower and sometimes it will be higher. It takes into account the chance of it falling off early and the restack time.

The thing that people in this thread are trying to get across is the simple fact that with the huge amount of armor on it, it really barely needs to stack at all to be equal to or better than any other EH trinket in the game for a physical fight.

You can do the math for yourself, if you want, but with the average stack it's miles ahead of everything else. It probably only needs 1-2 stacks to exceed the other trickets.

Martie
01-18-2010, 05:05 AM
What exactly do you base this statement on it 'never' having a 4 stack for more than 10 seconds? Some fights, sure, but certainly not all fights.
In ten seconds, it will either drop off or have been upped to five.


The 4-ish stack is the true statistical average in most cases, meaning sometimes it will be lower and sometimes it will be higher. It takes into account the chance of it falling off early and the restack time.

In what situations? Looking at it over an entire raid, with the way fights go, is pointless to me. I want to know it's chances of being active when I need it most.


The thing that people in this thread are trying to get across is the simple fact that with the huge amount of armor on it, it really barely needs to stack at all to be equal to or better than any other EH trinket in the game for a physical fight.
I think I said something to this extent when the item was first mentioned here.


You can do the math for yourself, if you want, but with the average stack it's miles ahead of everything else. It probably only needs 1-2 stacks to exceed the other trickets.Again with the average stack. Average stack is very dangerous here - if you count on it being up to four at all times, you'll be sorely dissappointed.
(An average stack of four could mean that it gets bumped to a 10stack in the first ten seconds of the fight, then it stays at a 10stack for 10 seconds, then it falls off and isn't procced again for 17 seconds, with that cycle repeating. Fact is, it won't be 4stacked most of the time.)

Kojiyama
01-18-2010, 06:21 AM
I'm trying to figure out why you glanced over the fact that it only really requires low amounts of stacks to be good.

To quote Aggathon's post


Source: krc
The proc is what really seperates it from the other trinkets, in pure EH 1890 armor is worth only around 170-175 stamina making the proc make or break it.

^ This, but with only 2 stacks, 175 + 48 = 223 stam. At 3 stacks it's the best EHP trinket in the game, and at 10 stacks it's just f***ing absurd.


...which is pretty much accurate.

Bovinity
01-19-2010, 10:43 AM
I'm pretty much at the point where - in ICC at least - I'm just ignoring the proc altogether and counting it as an armor trinket.

Really, looking at all the fights that are really challenging for the tanks (And even ones that aren't) you usually have so little time to get the stacks up and so much time to have them drop.

There's just no way to effectively model that into a reliable amount of survival, and much like my objections to The Black Heart, I just hate things that work in that way.

1890 armor all by itself is still pretty darn grand, though, so you'll still want to pick this thing up.

Aggathon
01-19-2010, 11:16 AM
Here's my breakdown of the fights I'll use it on:

Marrowgar - while being hit decently frequently and since this is a mostly physical fight, I'll use UO and H-Jug's Vit (H-JV). UO's base armor is just barely worse than normal Jug's Vit (N-JV), so much so that it's almost negligible and it passes it at one stack.

Deathwhisper - the melee here isn't really the concern, armor loses its value here and you really need to just survive incase a frost bolt does get off. I'd use dual Jug's here

Gunship - If doing on a boat, I'd use double Jug's since the ranged damage is bleed based, if doing it normal I'd use avoidance trinkets, probably ony and eitrigg's oath (/obligatory vomit here).

Saurfang - Again, physical fight, I'd use H-JV and UO, even if the stacks fall off, I only need 1 for it to be better than N-JV

Festergut - definitely use H-JV and UO, you tank for 90 seconds at a time, the tank swaps are not frequent, therefore UO becomes very useful.

Rotface - again, tanking the whole time, lots of physical damage, I think UO wins out again here.

Putricide - the first night of real attempts on him I accidentally didn't debuff him before the 35% tear gas, the debuffs fell off, and he came back and 2 shot me with physical damage, imo this is another stack EHP fight, I'd use UO and H-JV

Having not done the blood wing yet, I refuse to comment on what I would use, I'll start out in EHP gear, but I also don't have UO yet /tear.


Edit: Kojiyama and I seem to rarely agree on things. Chances are when we do, we're right =P

Bovinity
01-19-2010, 11:36 AM
UO's base armor is just barely worse than normal Jug's Vit (N-JV), so much so that it's almost negligible and it passes it at one stack.

This is an important part of the discussion...while the armor/HP conversion might be that way for a warrior, it's significantly different for a bear.


Festergut - definitely use H-JV and UO, you tank for 90 seconds at a time, the tank swaps are not frequent, therefore UO becomes very useful.

What's important to me here is WHEN the tank swaps happen. For example, if you're tanking him first, you'll get to 9 stacks part way through the second inhale...so you're really never in a position to be truly threatened. If you're the second tank, you're taunting for part of the second inhale and all of the third and you'll have zero stacks and are unlikely to get very many before the bloat comes and you're back to really not being in danger at all.

Rotface is a definate go for the UO, but it also really doesn't challenge the tank, either.

Of course, like I said, the armor alone makes it pretty good. So I'm not knocking on it. And things are a little different from a bears point of view when comparing armor and stamina.

I'll probably still end up just using it. =O

Martie
01-19-2010, 01:02 PM
One of the reasons I like the armor on it so much is due to an oft-overlooked aspect of armor on EH, namely the empowering of healing.

It makes perfect sense in my mind, but it may be tricky to explain. I'll use an example with numbers tinkered to easily fit (not realistic, of course, but it should illustrate what I mean.)

We have a tank with 50k health and 50% armor damage reduction, putting him at 100k EH. When he gets healed for 1000 health, it heals him for 2000 effective health, or 2% of his total.
Now, if we increase the EH to 110k by adding purely stamina, the heal will remain at 2000 EH, now healing him for 1.82% of his total. If we increase the EH to 110k by adding purely armor, the heal will remain at 2%, now healing him for 2200 EH.
In short, if you compare the two, they will have equal EH, but the heals on the armorguy will be 21% more effective.

I know healing gained doesn't usually get factored in when calculating EH, but with healing getting as intense as it is, I think we should consider the fact that armor-EH is a lot easier to heal then stamina-EH.

Dreadski
01-19-2010, 01:10 PM
Martie, that's probably one of the best points that's been brought up so far. Thanks for posting.

Bovinity
01-19-2010, 01:15 PM
No doubt about it, Martie.

I kinda wish they'd nerf Bear stamina scaling already. I'd much rather be wearing Glyph/Organ over double Juggernaut, but...ugh...just not a lot of incentive to do so it seems.

Kojiyama
01-19-2010, 01:46 PM
Indeed, class considerations are pretty important here. Warriors, with their low Stamina multiplier and low Armor values can really get a lot out of Bonus Armor items. They are very powerful for us compared to alternatives.

However, Stamina is really, really good for Bears. So, not too surprised that the value can go back and forth based on that.

Martie makes a really good point and definitely is a large reason Armor is a nice stat, especially at large values that give solid EH as well.

Lanore
01-19-2010, 04:43 PM
Of course, the reality won't come out that clean, since in reality you'll get hit 5 times in 10 seconds sometimes and 1 time in 10 seconds other times, so that significantly increases the real risk of dropping the buff.


I've been looking at this trinket and argueing with my tanks over it's value for a while. The non-heroic version is 24 stam and ~1900 armor, but i think it's awesome.

What some of you are missing (and you are all better tanks than me, so dont' think i'm hating) is that the buff ONLY REQUIRES you to be hit ONCE in a 10 second timeframe to keep the buff refreshed. My tanks never go 10 seconds without getting hit at least once. Maybe you guys do.

The only question really is how long it takes to get to a 10 stack. IMO, this trinket rocks.

Bovinity
01-19-2010, 04:46 PM
What some of you are missing (and you are all better tanks than me, so dont' think i'm hating) is that the buff ONLY REQUIRES you to be hit ONCE in a 10 second timeframe to keep the buff refreshed. My tanks never go 10 seconds without getting hit at least once. Maybe you guys do.

It's only a 60% chance on hit. So it's not just "get hit once every 10 seconds".

However, even with the 60% chance, if you were just face tanking every fight it'd be ok. It's the tank-swapping, lots-of-moving, occasional-downtime stuff in ICC that gets it in question.

zaubade
01-19-2010, 05:10 PM
It's only a 60% chance on hit. So it's not just "get hit once every 10 seconds".

However, even with the 60% chance, if you were just face tanking every fight it'd be ok. It's the tank-swapping, lots-of-moving, occasional-downtime stuff in ICC that gets it in question.

So it is not as effective while I have swapped out with my bear buddy... but it becomes as effective when I take agro back and am being smacked in the face. well that's how I look at it anyway. I do not care so much about what is happening when I am not taking the big hits, just when I am. note I do not have this trinky yet... I am looking forward to it dropping though.. although almost anything could replace the black heart I am running with now soo.

Tharr
01-19-2010, 05:35 PM
I am curious though why it's ok for dps to get trinkets that stack 100% every time they attack and stay stacked as long as they attack but not for tanks to atleast get something that's guaranteed to stack when you get hit.

In my opinion they should have made this one 100% guaranteed to stack when the tank attacks. Just to let the tank be in charge of something aswell. Having armor proccs on rings, needing to get hit to get rage, damage shield, it's just all reactive. Atleast let me have a trinket I can stack myself.

Bovinity
01-19-2010, 05:41 PM
They seem to be trying to get tanks away from the 100%-reliable EH idea with a lot of the newer items. (Well, a few. Not a lot.)

They've said before they don't entirely like the idea of tanks just stacking and stacking to get one big EH number. So who knows.

Dots
01-19-2010, 05:43 PM
I am curious though why it's ok for dps to get trinkets that stack 100% every time they attack and stay stacked as long as they attack but not for tanks to atleast get something that's guaranteed to stack when you get hit.

In my opinion they should have made this one 100% guaranteed to stack when the tank attacks. Just to let the tank be in charge of something aswell. Having armor proccs on rings, needing to get hit to get rage, damage shield, it's just all reactive. Atleast let me have a trinket I can stack myself.

Because it's not supposed to be a no-brainer best in slot in 99.5% of all situations since it would be on 10 stacks whenever you tank something. With 100% proc chance, the stamina bonus would have to be way smaller, but in this case, that is simply not the design.

Aggathon
01-19-2010, 06:23 PM
One of the reasons I like the armor on it so much is due to an oft-overlooked aspect of armor on EH, namely the empowering of healing.

It makes perfect sense in my mind, but it may be tricky to explain. I'll use an example with numbers tinkered to easily fit (not realistic, of course, but it should illustrate what I mean.)

We have a tank with 50k health and 50% armor damage reduction, putting him at 100k EH. When he gets healed for 1000 health, it heals him for 2000 effective health, or 2% of his total.
Now, if we increase the EH to 110k by adding purely stamina, the heal will remain at 2000 EH, now healing him for 1.82% of his total. If we increase the EH to 110k by adding purely armor, the heal will remain at 2%, now healing him for 2200 EH.
In short, if you compare the two, they will have equal EH, but the heals on the armorguy will be 21% more effective.

I know healing gained doesn't usually get factored in when calculating EH, but with healing getting as intense as it is, I think we should consider the fact that armor-EH is a lot easier to heal then stamina-EH.

Also the more armor you have, the more effective the stamina you have is. Armor is gud.

Tharr
01-19-2010, 06:34 PM
^ This, but with only 2 stacks, 175 + 48 = 223 stam. At 3 stacks it's the best EHP trinket in the game, and at 10 stacks it's just f***ing absurd.

That's the problem though. Without those stacks it's worse then dual stam trinkets. And there's no guarantee you'll have any stacks up when you need it. It probably won't make or break a fight if you have 0 or 10 stacks, but do you really want to gamble it'll be up when you need it?

So I'm still curious why dps can get something that is guaranteed to stack while tanks have to first roll if they get hit and then roll again to see if it even proccs? Though I don't think anyone on this forum can answer that so it's probably a pointless question.

Aggathon
01-19-2010, 10:15 PM
That's the problem though. Without those stacks it's worse then dual stam trinkets. And there's no guarantee you'll have any stacks up when you need it. It probably won't make or break a fight if you have 0 or 10 stacks, but do you really want to gamble it'll be up when you need it?

So I'm still curious why dps can get something that is guaranteed to stack while tanks have to first roll if they get hit and then roll again to see if it even proccs? Though I don't think anyone on this forum can answer that so it's probably a pointless question.

So what you're saying is it's almost as good as N-JV with zero stacks, and the majority of the time (I think like 93% of the time there will at least be 1 stack) it's better... so... what's your problem with the trinket? Also armor > stam if equal or close to equal in EHP.

Tharr
01-20-2010, 07:38 AM
Also armor > stam if equal or close to equal in EHP.

That's nothing new and I'll probably end up using this trinket. Even if it's slightly worse then N-JV the difference is probably to small to be noticed while making the healers job that much easier.

My problem isn't so much with the trinket as it is with Blizzard at the moment. They kept saying from the start they couldn't give us perfectly itemised gear because they wanted to save that for the last instance. Now we have the last instance and I just don't see where that perfectly itemised gear is. Maybe it was just my expectations that was to high.

DirewolfX
01-20-2010, 11:00 AM
So I'm still curious why dps can get something that is guaranteed to stack while tanks have to first roll if they get hit and then roll again to see if it even proccs? Though I don't think anyone on this forum can answer that so it's probably a pointless question.

Several reasons:

1. A 60% chance on hit for a DPS is probably going to be close to 99% uptime. My main nuke on my caster is at 1.5 seconds already with the amount of haste I have, so it would have to be lower than that to have any risk of falling off. Also, dual wield melee hit a lot faster than 2Her melee--DW melee would never drop a stack unless the chance was so low 2Her melee could never stack it.

2. If they made it lower than that, they would need to increase the bonus it provides. Let's take Muradin's Spyglass; 180 stacked damage vs. something like 360 or more if it only stacked 25% of the time. That would get very bursty. (Even with 25% chance, I suspect it will have at least 80% uptime for my mage)

3. Burst is bad for PvP.

TL;DR answer: PvP

thecrazyman
01-20-2010, 11:20 AM
I wish instead of chance on being hit to chance on hit. This way it doesn't require us to be hit and stacks could be manage better. It would be able to be kept up on the off tank by his attacking and by the current tank. Getting hit cap isn't the issue its just when the tank wants more EH or Armor EH the hit rating isn't on the gear which could mean less uptime for the buff if they stack the armor or EH gear. Most tanks are rolling around 5% hit give or take and isn't focused as much because of us wanting a bigger HP.

So IMO making it a chance on being hit just puts it as a variable amount of up time. The armor is nice and lowers the proc to stack some but really chance in being hit when there are times tanks no dmg for 10s sometimes... All the dps trinkets on chance on hit and not being hit this one just seems like a wording issue to me. Remove the "being" hit part and you got a decent trinket that any tank would want even at any rate of applying % up time.

Dreadski
01-20-2010, 01:09 PM
Making it chance on hit would increase the uptime dramatically regardless of how much hit/exp you stack. On high rage fights you'll be landing attacks every half second or so, it would build up and stay up the whole time even on taunt switch fights like LDW, SF and FG.

thecrazyman
01-22-2010, 09:13 AM
If thatís the case then put it to chance on melee hit to off set the timer. The lowest speed is a warrior around at 1.6 and with lust it can get to around 1s. But I think even that is spliting hairs some from .5 to 1s isn't going to change the uptime. The other tought here is instead of on hit or being hit to put it to a precentage of HP. So any time you drop to below say 60% you get a stack that only refreshes if you drop below that again within 15s. The case here though is whats the chance they would even change this? Its very slim at best that blizzard will change it just so we can get more HP which they already don't like us doing.

I truely think thats why they made it being on hit verse anything else. IMO trinkets have been and problemly always will be the filler items to the encounters. If you need more armor and a little more HP use this verse use this all the time. I know as I tank I usually got at least 2-5 trinkets in my bags for fights that it may help on but others might not.