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Swam
11-20-2009, 02:36 AM
This Guide is made as of patch 3.3 (ok Lulia Update for ya, let me know what you think)

There is a lot out there on Frost tanking and a lot of misleading information. I have been tanking as frost since Death knights came out, and went dual wielding as soon as it became viable. In this guide I will cover both dual wielding and two handed weapons, but My personal bias and opinion Is that the frost tree is far more effective if you take use of dual wielding.

This guide is also not a stand alone work. There are many strong resources here at tank spot that I draw from and you should by no means read this guide and consider yourself a good tank if you are new to it. This guide will however help new Frost Tanks get a solid ground work as to how Frost works and what its strengths and weaknesses are.

Also to help yourself I recommend looking at other classes and specs guides, If not for the details of the class/spec, then for the bits and pieces of hints and tips on tanking in general and how to work best with other tanks. Frost tanks are strong tools when used well, and If you know how you work as a part of a whole, that tool will become even stronger.

Frost tanks are based abound mitigation. They are not self healers like blood. In some ways this makes them similar to the other tank classes.

Anyway on with the show.
Part 1: Resources
Part 2: Talents
Part 3:Stats, gems, enchants and glyphs
Part 4: Rotations and abilities
Part 5: Setup and play


Part 1 Resources

The death knight has two different resources at their disposal. Runes and Runic power. There are 3 different runes, and two of each rune. Blood frost and unholy. Most abilities use 1, 2, or 3 runes. others use varying amounts of runic power. The key to managing the death knight, is the effective use of both resources so you minimize ability downtime.

Runes when used are on a set cool down and can be predicted visually. Runic power is generated when you use runes. 1 rune 10rp 2 or 3 runes is 15rp.

When tanking you want to have as little down time on abilities as possible. That is why it is important to take stock of your abilities and what they consume so you will keep yourself running smoothly. Try not to rely on 1 rune or runic power as the hinge of your ability. All runes and RP are useful and should never be ignored while waiting to land a specific ability.


Part 2: Talents


First off all dk tanks should grab the holy trinity.

Blade barrier from the blood tree grants 5% damage reduction every time your blood runes are on cool down, this effect lasts 10 seconds so every time your blood runes are used it is refreshed. Great thing about this skill is fairly quickly in your rotation your blood runes will be on cool down. As the fight progresses you will constantly refresh this. All in all a constant 5% damage reduction.

Toughness from the frost free, increases armor value by 10% and reduces movement impairing effects.

Anticipation from unholy increases your dodge chance by 5%
If you do not have these tier 1 talents as a death knight tank, you are wrong.

Blood Tree and Frost Tanking
For frost tanking there are 2 abilities that may be helpful to you based on your weapon.

Bladed armor in T2 increases attack power by armor, a strong threat ability.

Two handed weapon specialization also in T2 is a must if you use a 2 handed weapon, if you use dual wielding of course you have no need for this ability. Now for frost 2 handers are becoming less and less popular as Blood and unholy utilizes them better, however It is still viable.

Unholy tree and frost tanking
there are several tank helpful abilities in the second tier that you can use to put your extra points in as play stile dictates.

Unholy command reduces cool down on death grip. A nice talent if you rely heavily on death grip but not a core skill.

epidemic increases the duration of plagues. Recently I find this less useful than it used to be. If you use the glyph of howling blast to apply frost fever, or run a single disease rotation, the timer on diseases should be for the most part a non issue.

Morbidity reduces cool down on death and decay and well as upping the healing and damage of death coil. This Is another “extra” point slot based on play style.


Frost tree. Here I will point out the essential abilities and the useful

T2
Black ice Frost and shadow damage increased 10%
For dual wielders, Nerves of cold steel increases chance to hit and damage done from offhand weapon. Both the dual wield abilities are necessary to make dual wielding viable. So if you roll this way Make sure to get em or you get slapped.

T3
Annihilation, increased chance to crit with melee special abilities by 3% and Obliterate will not consume your diseases. This is a key ability for frost players. Obliterate being a key frost skill, It is important to grab this to keep your diseases up.

T4
Killing machine; melee attacks have a chance to make next icy touch, howling blast, or frost strike a critical hit. Free crits = moar threat. Moar threat = good.

T5
Frigid Dreadplate; reduces chance melee attacks will hit you by 3%. Simple logic here you get hit less, you live longer.

Glacier rot' diseased enemies take 20% more damage from it, hb, and fs. Another threat ability (note it only requires one disease to gain the extra crit)

T6
Merciless Combat; IT, HB, OBL, and FS, do 12% more damage when target is below 35% hp.

Rime increase crit chance of IT and HB by 15% and has 15% chance to refresh HB and make your next HB consume no runes. This is a very important ability. Gives extra crit and getting extra free HB's is a great way to get group aggro faster and stronger. (also keeps you diseases refreshed)

T7
Improved frost presence, damage done decreased another 2% and you retain the stam buff of frost presence in other specs.

T8
Threat of Thassarian; (also for dual wielders only) when dual wielding your death strikes, obliterates, rune strikes, blood strikes plague strikes and frost strikes deal damage with offhand weapon. Second ability that ensures the viability for dual wielders.

Blood of the north; blood strike and frost strike damage increased by 10% and when you hit with blood strike or pestilence a blood rune becomes a death rune. Death rune counts as any type of rune

Unbreakable armor. Increases armor by 30% and strength by 10% for 20 seconds. The only major cool down for frost dk's that you need to spend points to have.

T9
Acclimation; when hit by a spell you have a chance to boost your resistance to that type of magic for 18 secs, stacks up to 3 times. Now this is not a must have talent but I find it very useful. The majority of damage you will take is physical but I like to have a little extra protection.

Frost strike; strike enemy for 60% weapon damage plus 57 as frost damage.

Guile of gorefiend; increase crit strike damage bonus of your blood strike, frost strike, howling blast and obliterate by 45% and increase duration of icebound fortitude by 6 seconds.

T10
Tundra stalker; increase expertise by 5 + spells and abilities deal 15% more damage to enemies with frost fever.

T11
Howling blast; blast all enemies within 10 yards for frost damage. The key of frost tanking is this baby. Its one of your top threat abilities, will make you a master of aoe and really what makes frost the bee's knees.

I have left out the Icy talons and Hungering cold abilities for sound reasons. Firstly they are not part of a standard build, You may be called to get these abilities for a raid if the utility is needed. However as a rule, they really are not effective tanking tools.
Other abilities relating to runic power are also not needed, You really should never have a need for more than 80 or so RP as you should be using it as often as it is available in your rotation.

This is what im running with right now
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...1,awr3eO,10835 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#3hXrqV5DQrfHB1,awr3eO,10835)
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...69Q4eFR,,10894 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#3hXXur69Q4eFR,,10894)


Part 3: Stats gems and enchants.


Your primary stats are:
Stamina, Dodge, Parry, armor
Defense, expertise, hit
strength

Defense as long as you are over 540 don't worry about it, It increases avoidance by a small amount, but after you hit 540 never gem for it.
Expertise, 26 is the optimal number to aim for.
Hit; 8% for 2 handers to never miss and for dual wielders to not miss with special attacks.
27% for 1 handers to never miss white swings.
Strength, its nice but again never gem or enchant for, there is always something better.

Meta gems;
32 stam 2% increased armor value is hands down the choice to make. There are other stam gems with reduced stun time etc but they are really only for pvp.

Enchants
Head;
37 stam 20 def from argent crusade rep vendor
Shoulder;
20 dodge 15 def from sons of hodir rep vendor
30 stam
Back
16 def rating
225 armor
22 agi
chest
22 def rating
275 health
wrist
40 stamina
hands
2% threat 10 parry
240 armor
18 stam
15 expertise
20 agi
legs
55 stamina 22 agility form leather workers
boots
15 stam and run speed increase (tuskars vitality)
weapon:
Rune of sword breaking and spell breaking for 1 handers, Now they are less preferable than the 1% stamina bonus and 13 defense skill., stone skin gargoyle or swordshattering for 2 handers.


Glyphs
Major
Glyph of Unbreakable armor: increase total armor granted by 30%
Glyph of Disease: Refreshes diseases on primary target with pestilence
Glyph of antimagic shell: 2 seconds longer
Glyph of Dark command: 8% increase in success
Glyph of death and decay: Damage increased 20% for D&D
Glyph of Howling blast: HB infects all it hits with frost fever
Glyph of Frost strike: reduces cost by 8 RP
Glyph of Obliterate: increases damage of this skill by 20%
Glyph of rune strike: increase crit chance of this skill by 10%


Now you should choose you glyphs to compliment and enforce your spec. Don't pick glyph of D&D if you aren't speced into it etc.

Minor
Glyph of horn of winter: horn of winter duration 1 min longer
Glyph of pestilence: radius increased 5 yards
Glyph of raise dead: Reagent no longer required.


Part 4: Rotation and abilities.


First off cool downs.
Anti magic shell: Absorbs 75% of magic damage, up to half of your max life, gains runic power and lasts 5 seconds. An amazing ability for shrugging off big magic hits like the lightning nova from Emalon, or the Twin Valkyries if you need to eat an orb.

Unbreakable armor: Increases armor by 30% and strength by 10% for 20 seconds.

Icebound fortitude: Immune to stuns and reduces damage taken by 20% plus damage reduction based on defense. Which with 540 defense comes to around 40-43%

Army of the dead can be helpful in rare instances for extra damage or to absorb a few melee hits from rare bosses they can taunt or trash.
Addition to AOTD. When casting damage taken is reduced by your parry plus dodge chance, so it can be used as a 6 second damage reducer.
The combo of raise dead and death pact can give you a chunk of health in a tight spot. If you raise your ghoul and immediately sacrifice him for 40% of your hp, you can survive in a tight spot when heals are late or dead, Similar in my mind to a last stand like the warrior, except the health doesn't vanish after a few seconds.

Other abilities are not a part of the stick rotation but are none the less important. Horn of winter, Death chill, and empowered runic weapon.
Death chill and horn of winter are more for dps and threat than anything else.
Empowered runic weapon will instantly refresh all your runes allowing you to react to varied situations. This skill is your best friend for reacting to unexpected or disasterouse events. It gives you any rune powered attack instantly which in turn can give you that extra threat, pick up a new add, or whatever else is needed.


Weapon choice


Now the big choice in frost abilities lies in weapon choice. 2hander vrs. 2 one handers. 2 handers only require 8% hit and have the
25 defense enchant. however there are no tank specific 2 handed weapons. For 1 handers you can have traditional tanking weapons,
or a mix of tank and dps weapons as you see fit.
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/members/swam-albums-funny-times-wow-picture672-1237082687753.jpg


Rotation

Frost presence. This is the universal tanking presence. It grants 6% stamina, 60% armor increase, 10% damage reduction, and increased threat generated.

While Frost has strong single target threat, They really pull ahead in AOE tanking. Building mass threat fast on several mobs is the bread and butter of frost.

There are three main ways to pull.
Death and decay is the most useful when pulling groups as you get a decent amount of threat on all targets.
Icy touch , useful for single target pulling when there is a good chance of adds. This is most often what I lead with.
death grip when you know there will be no adds and are positive your dps will not surpass you in threat before you can get into your rotation. I dislike using a taunt as a pull in most situations, however it can be useful if you want to move a caster or situate the fight in a certain way.

Now that you have the mob, you need to keep him. He is your friend and everyone else in your group is jealous and wants him to be their friend. Dont let then take your friend away! Now frost dk's are very good at both single target and aoe threat. You have 1 ability that generates high threat for each. Rune strike and D&D. rune strike is an on next swing ability, much like the warrior's heroic strike and
cleave. It uses runic power and should be your primary ability for this resource. D&D is an aoe ability much like consecrate. It costs 1 of each of your runes, and is well worth them.

Regular single target rotation
starts off with the Icy touch pull, and plague strike. Then you use blood strikex2 and obliterate. As soon as rune strike is available use it. Every time it is up you use it. it is very cheap and a huge threat attack. If rune strike is not available and you have 60 or more runic power you use frost strike.

Aoe rotation is similar but a few differences. D&D to pull icy touch>Plague strike>pestilence. (at this point your runes are all on cool down)
Now burn of some runic power same priority as single target. However Howling blast replaces obliterate and blood boil replaces blood strike. Rune strike should still be used as often as possible.

It is a very popular method for AoE tanking, especially if you have glyph of HB, to use a single disease setup. You HB to pull, or collect the targets and HB. Then you only use HB and BB,
and hit OB when HB is on CD to proc Rime so you can HB more. No IT, no PS, no BS, etc. Shore up threat with FS and to dump some RP when there's cause to. Neither BB nor HB require both diseases
to do full damage, OB is a little diminished but its primary role is to refresh HB only. Glyph of HB with this method means you never have to bother applying or renewing diseases with IT/PS/Pest.

These rotations are not inviolate, they are just what I find myself using most often. Frequently however this is not the case and You have to switch things up. As long as you rely heavily on the key abilities, you really should have no troubles.

Always keep your diseases up, always always always. How often should you keep your diseases on the mob? That's right, bloody always.


Part 5: Setup and play


There are other tactics that are universal to all tanks. positioning, camera, handling adds. Knowing when to use cool downs and how to kite. these are things that cannot be simply told.

A very important skill for any tank is the ability to mark fast and accurately.
This will allow dps to know the kill order, thus if kill order is followed you should have top threat as mobs go down. If you can maintain top
threat than half your job is done. watching all the mobs is only a part of your job though. you need to watch your healers so you are always in range,
watch dps threat so yo can alert them if they are about to pull, and if they pull you need to taunt back before the mob can get to them.

Another thing left out often is how you set up your interface. I'm not going to sell any add ons here but I am going to emphasize you try and have a flow. If you are a clicker, have abilities you use the most together, don't have abilities you use back to back far apart from each other. If you use key binds then I recommend setting up your bars in a way that makes sense to your key binds. A trick I use is to have my bars set up like my quick keys so if I happen to forget for a second what skill is what key, I glance down and from the set up know where the key is. I try and make my setup as intuitive and simple as possible.

Now this is not an end all be all guide, I have laid out a lot of helpful information and ideas. However with death knights there are those who want to bring utility instead of survivability etc. Your role in raids will dictate some of the changes to your build.

Also I would like to add a personal note, always be open to learning. I always keep my eyes out for frost tanks who differ in spec from me and ask them why they do what they do. Its one of the easiest ways to learn new ideas. Sometimes you will run into idiots, and sometimes you will run into amazing players who will help you improve. And just because a tank is not a frost death knight doesn't mean you have nothing to learn from them.

So get out there and get your feet wet. succeed, fail, learn from your mistakes and improve.
If you have any further questions feel free to ask me through Tankspot, pm me in game, or refer to any of the several guides here.
Good luck and happy tanking.
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/members/swam-albums-funny-times-wow-picture673-e880e45c.jpg

vine
11-20-2009, 06:15 AM
Good guide, a few comments:

Glyph of Howling Blast and Glyph of Disease are mutually exclusive I find. Reason being you cast HB every time Rime procs, and most Frost tanks seem to run a single-disease rotation.

Glyph of IBF is waste on tanks, it no longer provides any extra mitigation above 540def.

Satorri
11-20-2009, 08:44 AM
There are obvious errors here and there, but I wouldn't label spellbreaking wrong, it's just a little more case specific.

There are some fights where I might be tempted to take the spell damage reduction over the parry (the current incarnation of the Twins actually makes that a bit tempting).

If you have additional tanking weapons you can carry tools to adjust given the situation.

Swam
11-20-2009, 12:22 PM
Problems and mistakes fixed, sorry for the mess ups should be good now!

Airowird
11-20-2009, 06:26 PM
What about pulling with Howling Blast?
HB > IT > let em get to you > PS > Pest > BB (> HB again) is probably the biggest AoE threat combo you can have without using DnD and/or ERW. You can use BS as Blood Runes as well, depending on what exactly it is you're pulling.

E.g. Ony whelps would be good to do this, as you can grab em without DnD, then drag em to the middle, smack your pool of doom on the combined pack and watch the numbers fly by.

Swam
11-20-2009, 08:40 PM
i rarely HB pull, with whelps ill d&d the entrance IT the first one and pest>HB when they mass on me in the middle. but that's just preference.

Satorri
11-21-2009, 05:03 AM
I think the HB pull is most effective if you have HB glyphed, otherwise it can be a less efficient use of the spell since that blacks it out immediately for less than the damage it is capable of.

I do like using strategically placed DnD to grab whelps' (and other add groups) attention. Though I also try to place it a little closer to where I intend to park it so they get more than one or two ticks, as that too is expensive to blow casually.

Swam
11-21-2009, 07:26 AM
I just reglyphed for HB dropped pest. I really like the new rotation options. loosing the refresh really isnt noticed. Uped my tps a bit and I like it.

Edgewalker
11-23-2009, 07:24 AM
The layout could use a lot of work. Correct grammar, linking talent specs with explanations for each spec over just posting the available talents (which anyone can see relatively easily), and describing the downfalls and strengths of each enchant. Right now this is virtually a link to wowhead without the formatting and pictures.

GravityDK
11-23-2009, 03:42 PM
Yah I'm with Edge, made me reluctant to read it. I'm a fairly visual guy when it comes to reading longer posts, I like a good layout. Sorry!

Swam
11-23-2009, 07:56 PM
hmm, kk layout is something not to hard to fix, guessing tool tip links are wanted as well. Ill get right on that. Any other suggestions please post, Eventually this will be a good guide lol.

Theotherone
11-23-2009, 09:14 PM
As a personal preference I like Morbidity in my Frost spec and I like the DnD glyph. I tend to use DnD on all pulls; it's just the way I've always done it and now with geared mages, hunters etc. kicking out some wicked dps I see no reason to not use it liberally.

As much as I like Frost, I've dual spec'd into Blood and, I have to say, it's a lot of fun in places like ToCr; although on Faction Champs Frost is a blast.

The guide is good and I think shows that there are many flavors to Frost tanking i.e. there's no one size fits all.

Krenian
11-24-2009, 07:30 AM
One of the things I wanna point out to most people making guides as a suggestion:

One of the KEY things that people need to understand is that there will never be a 'set in stone' guide when playing a tanking class. We all have certain things we do while tanking that work and that do not work. Some people simply enjoy playing the game and knowing how to properly do things.

A tanking guide is very hard to do because there are some things that some individuals do that seem right to then AND work. An emphasis on the key talents is something I would suggest any individual to focus on as this is a universal agreement upon.

But if you plan on giving any specs, know that you WILL get chewed up for it by any individual that doesn't agree with point placement. Giving a cookie cutter build for any tanking guide is asking to put your head underwater and see how long you can breathe before it chokes you to death. There's too much disagreement.

If you plan on ever putting a build, please understand this note: Prove your points. State why you believe the talents you take are best for the situations you are doing. Linking a build and just saying "this is best for threat bar none" will get a lot of critique.

This generally is the same when it comes to lists about gems and enchants: There are so many different situations for different scenarios. Delving into this realm is going to show a lot of criticism. Be careful.

Just my two cents.

Pwnanapuddin
11-24-2009, 11:10 AM
Puddin's thoughts on frost.

First off I started as frost, always wanted to be frost, leveled as frost, pvped for a long time as frost, tank in both my guilds as frost. I am a frosty ho and I love it. With good gear choices early on to up your expertise, or gemming for it, it will really allow you to get the most out of what I find to be the core of the build, The Obliterate/HB/Rime of doom rotation.

Right now I have chosen to glyph for Oblit, HB, and the new UA glyph, which I must say I do like. It still gives a little buff to threat from the strength, and in most cases should help the DK get up to 30-34k armor depending on gear adding a great period of regular extra mitigation you can rotate.

I have made the solid choice that I will be sticking with a DPS sigil for the rest of ToC. My avoidance stats are already very high; and the extra 200 STR from using Obliterate which I already button mash when its up is a great bonus to my threat and DMG contribution (I average 2.5-3+ kdps depending on fights).

I do use the single disease rotation and only use HB for its application for the most part, that does not mean you should always use it. You will easily piss off your guildmates if you throw around HB's on Fac Champs and breaks peoples CC's. However on Twins I highly suggest using a 2 disease rotation for the simple fact that you can pestilence the diseases to both targets, and blow both away with large HB crits from your OBS Rime procs.

Don't forget to macro your rune strikes!!!!

Last night made the 3rd group from my guild to clear 10Htoc, and the 4th tribute chest, including one group's "Tribute to Mad Skill" (Our dedicated azn group we keep to make us look good.) We have actually only been working on this for 3 weeks total for the most part.

Frosty powah!

Zxian
11-28-2009, 04:08 PM
I use a slightly different build (link (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSQeNhlIJMQZQr,waYO-3,10623)) which I've found quite versatile for several encounters. Single target threat is very rarely an issue (only when the DPS significantly outgears me), and multi-target aggro is also simply a non-issue.

In one of our recent Ony25 kills, we had all ranged DPS stay on the boss, while melee turned on the whelps and the guardian (only one came out by the time P3 started). As you can see from the damage done here (http://www.kwikpiks.com/files/1/WoWScreens/WoWScrnShot_111709_220120.jpg), multi-target damage (and therefore threat) is simply unbeatable by a frost DK. Spamming HB every time it's off CD, and spreading Blood Plague in-between means you have much more threat than most people know what to do with. I even ended up pulling the other paladin's whelps off him by the time they were almost dead.

vine
11-28-2009, 05:29 PM
Yep I switch to Frost for Onyxia, HB is ridiculous for threat here. KM seems to proc a lot during this phase and I see regular crits of 84,000-86,000. The whelps stick to me like glue.

I also ended up top on the damage meters.

Pwnanapuddin
11-29-2009, 04:38 AM
Yeah Zxian, I used to use epidemic also. Personally I prefer a 15 second DnD just in case. But your build is just fine, and I am sure it is nice getting some extra RP from SoB.

Swam
11-29-2009, 08:18 AM
I have been doing some tweaking over the past week with strong results. I switched from epidemic and glyph of pest to glyph of howling blast and a bit more crit from blood tree. Working on a 1 disease rotation for trash through HB is working fairly well. On bosses such as gormok I have had to slow down my rotation to keep from pulling constantly off of the other tank in my group. I still dont feel that running 1 disease is for everry instance but overall im likeing the flow

Blasterion
11-29-2009, 08:44 PM
I myself tank trash with 1 disease rotations if there are more than 1 mob It works very well and follow up with Obliterate Boilx2

Tarrke
11-30-2009, 08:36 AM
Things you didn't came up with in your all post are :
- What about getting Imroved Icy Talon
- Can I get endless Winter.

All you discution is more or less about : how do I get more tps. My question do you need more tps ? I'm currently running instances without any chaman, nor rogues for the most part. Cuts & haste buff are important (we do have ret pals, dps warriors and feral droods) for the raid, my tps is not really the best I can produce, but it is enought for them to go with.

A tank must provide two things. He must not die easily, and then must provide some threat so other can do their jobs, doing damages. The first thing I had to take was this haste buff du to not having a chaman in raid. Them I juste went to get Endless winter so I can get all vital cuts done on time with juste a smal tps done.

I know this is not to be done for everyone. I do have to respec from time to time just to get some more tps for some fight. We have a really god tps maker that is "used" early in fights, or where tps is needed. TPS is not the only advantage of DK tanks, even more if they are frost.

Once again, there is no road set in the stone on how to play a frost DK tank.

Swam
12-02-2009, 11:05 AM
That's one of the big issues with dk tanks. There are so many different ways to spec and play them that There will always be other ways to do things.

Icy talon's is an acceptable skill to take, and is preferable in a 2 handed weapon spec.
I honestly see no use for Endless winter over other skills but If you find it helpful than it may work.

Beevis
12-07-2009, 04:39 PM
I actually dont even apply diseases anymore while running a frost build.

HB applies ff which also triggers the icy talon abilities if you have that specced. It is just as efficient on single targets. I fill in Obliterate while HB is on CD. Plus it adds more runic power immediately so if you have runestrike macro'd, it will fire even sooner or if you need to blow any cd's to mitigate damage.

One of the things that I have specced is Death Chill for the omg I need agro on 10 things now moment which happens more then most raids like to admit especially while working your way up to Hodir.

3.3 is supposed to introduce a one hand version of the Stoneskin enchant. That is when I plan on switching to dh tanking. Problem now is maintaining 540 d while maintaining hit and expertise.

Chamenas
12-08-2009, 05:59 AM
3.3 brings in a new rune to allow +def enchants to one-handers (Rune of the Nerubian Carapice or something to that effect). Thus, slow dps weapons should become the favored weapon of DW frost tanks for the most part. On the PTR in the pre-made gear the DW frost tank I was playing managed to turn out consistently high threat with enough to be competitive over high dps. So this is definitely something to look into!

Swam
12-08-2009, 07:19 AM
Most of the time now I apply frost fever through HB, however on bosses or large groups where I have the time to throw a second disease up and let it tick I usually do. But I agree Most fights if you are glyphed into it HB is most of what you need disease wise.

Also side note, Im looking forward to the new enchant for 1 handed tanks. I have a slow wep in my main hand and a faster in my offhand :( Still trying to get a second dps weapon for my off hand.

Satorri
12-08-2009, 07:53 AM
I actually dont even apply diseases anymore while running a frost build.

HB applies ff which also triggers the icy talon abilities if you have that specced.

Oooooohhh, you faked me out.

I was totally ready to reply and say that leaving diseases off entirely was a very bad idea regardless of spec. Ha ha.

Swam
12-08-2009, 08:06 AM
Silly satorri, nobody is that stupid.......

Satorri
12-08-2009, 08:20 AM
You think.

There was a time when it was contemplated as a potential dps increase once you reached a certain gear level. That's why they beefed up the effect of diseases on a handful of key abilities.

vine
12-08-2009, 08:52 AM
Silly satorri, nobody is that stupid.......
PuG experience tells me otherwise.

Chamenas
12-08-2009, 07:13 PM
After discussing with Swam, I decided I would post up two alternate DW Frost Tanking builds. One which I have tested on the PTR and one which is a slight modification for those who, like me, often feel starved of runic power in Frost.

DW Frost Tanking (runic) (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EbZhxe0AbI0c0fuzAo0x)
DW Frost Tanking (tested) (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0E0MZhxe0AbI0c0fuzAo0x)

The tested build pulls about the same amount of TPS that I've pulled in my 2h Blood tanking if you're hitting everything right. It's a standard rotation of two diseases, blood strikex2, obliterate spam. Rune Strike when it's up, Frost Strike with KM procs. I saw numbers as high as 8k+ and as a low as 2k when nothing is going on. But, all in all, it has appeared to be an effective spec to use and I look forward to using it on Live.

Tankkin
12-09-2009, 07:02 AM
its been awhile since i posted but yes i am back from the dead :D
well 3.3 is live and i managed to get my hands on 2 single hand weapons just before patch day and i must admit it is so good being able to be frost again. tonight we downed marrowgar on our 3-4th try and had a quick glance at lady deathwhisper in the limited time we had on 10 man and i would have to say my frost dw spec does more tps than my blood 2h build. on top of that the amount of damage i took was much much lower. i'm still trying to sort out which weapon rune's to run with but with i feel with the amount of health missing compared to a 2h *blood build nerubian carapace is a must. i run a full damage reduction/avoidance build so my other rune was the 2% parry one but since i wanted to get an edge on my bear tank comprade i went for fallen crusader, however im thinking the frost vulnerability debuff from razorice or the fire damage from lichbane might be a better threat choice. i mostly averaged 8k tps. as far as runic starvation is concerned i blame frost strike. the 40 rp it costs is quite taxing but all in all frost actually feels alot smoother than i remember it ever being and thats with running only 1 point in chill of the grave :D
i mt'd marrowgar and took less damage than the druid ot, might not sound great but it gives me hope that frost has swung back to being the real tanking spec ;P
the only thing id recommend for your tested build lulia is getting acclimation cos there is ALOT of magic damage if your gonna be headin into ICC

Chamenas
12-09-2009, 07:55 AM
Swam's spec has acclimation. I'm aware that it might become more useful with ICC, but I'll have to see the content and how I fare in it before I make that judgment. But yes, the TPS is definitely competitive now. It's spiky, just like my Blood was, but puts out the same numbers on the whole. Got two good one-handers with the heroics (iLvl 232) so I'm ready to really give it a test drive.

vine
12-09-2009, 06:48 PM
The majority of damage is still physical in ICC, hence all the +armour gear. The only fight so far where Acclimation might -- might -- be a benefit is Lady Deathwhisper. The shadowfrost bolts from the cultists are pretty brutal.

Satorri
12-10-2009, 06:46 AM
The majority of all damage in all raids has always been physical. That may change fight to fight, but unless they give us new tools or ways to handle magic damage in general as tanks, I don't think you'll see it reach an equal split really.

Vah
12-10-2009, 06:48 AM
The majority of damage is still physical in ICC, hence all the +armour gear. The only fight so far where Acclimation might -- might -- be a benefit is Lady Deathwhisper. The shadowfrost bolts from the cultists are pretty brutal.


Sindragosa...

vine
12-10-2009, 06:57 PM
Sindragosa...
I did say the majority of fights are physical, and I did say so far. Unless your server is special none of us are fighting Sindragosa on the live realms yet.

Personally I don't see the benefit in sinking 3 points into a skill for a single fight in ICC.

Chamenas
12-10-2009, 07:14 PM
So, some results:

Did some hard modes in Ulduar, including Hodir. I was the main tank. I only lost aggro twice (just taunted back), I've seen the tps spike as high as 9k. It's definitely more difficult to hold consistent tps in frost than blood, but if you do everything right they've been about equal to me. A challenge is fun. :)

Satorri
12-11-2009, 06:39 AM
Well, vine, to be fair, just because it isn't used 100% of the time doesn't mean it's not necessarily worth it. There are still a fair amount of spell damage contributions, about as much as ever, and there will be more as time goes on.

Sterbefall
12-11-2009, 09:32 AM
You need 5% hit to always hit with specials when DWing with NoCS (not 8%).

Beevis
12-11-2009, 01:57 PM
Oooooohhh, you faked me out.

I was totally ready to reply and say that leaving diseases off entirely was a very bad idea regardless of spec. Ha ha.

Didnt mean to fake you out ;).

Stupid question. With the Icy Touch glyph now boosting 20% more damage from Frost fever, would this be able to piggy back off of the Howling Blast glyph that applies the frost fever? My thinking is that this would even make more consistent threat for the duration of any fight.

Also, is Frost Strike even worth the talent point anymore? I am so runic power starved off of a 2 hand (not to mention when I switch to dw) and can always go to dc if I needed a runic dump.

Chamenas
12-11-2009, 02:01 PM
Yes Frost Strike is worth the talent point. In my DW set-up it will bump up my threat at LEAST 1-2k TPS while I'm actively able to strike it. If you look at my talent setup, you'll see that I'm never going to be runic power starved. In fact, I'm considering altering it just slightly since I cap out on my runic power often. Then again, I should just hit Frost Strike more. :D

Swam
12-11-2009, 03:11 PM
Im a little confused about this rp starvation trend. How often are you spamming and relying on Frost strike? I generally manage my rp In a simple way. Less than 60 rp rune strike only. More than 60 rp I use frost strike. I have never found myself at a loss for rp when I need it.
I found A point into scent of blood is really all I need in terms of rp generation.
Now this is not to say that This is the only way to go, Maybe I just rely on rp less.

Satorri
12-11-2009, 03:31 PM
I've tested a super-high avoidance setup (about 68% when I was doing the tests). I was replacing more melee swings with RS than I was using regular swings. Even then I was generating enough RP from my normal rotation to use every Rune Strike without SoB. I wasn't able to do anything else and it took a couple rune sets to get off the ground for RP, but the fine print it:

The only way to be RP starved beyond the very beginning of a fight is to use too much RP on your RP dump.

Also, for your previous question:
The glyph has nothing to do with Icy Touch itself, except that it took the name. Even if you don't apply FF through IT ever it will still work just fine.

Insahnity
12-11-2009, 03:32 PM
This applies to all DKs, but Frost tanks are much better equipped to handle this than other DKs.

RP is used for 3 things:
1) Cooldowns (AMS/IBF/etc.).
2) Runestrike if you are a tank http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f56/50363-frost-strike-vs-rune-strike-threat.html
3) Something to do when your runes on CD.
REASON: Your Rune based abilities >>> RP based abilties. They should always be on CD unless you are saving a rune for something (a burn phase or a mitigation ability that works off a rune, and something vewy vewy bad is about to happen)

Now, I say frost tanks are better suited to handle this than other DKs, because quite frankly, if I were to spend RP with no runes up, I'd rather spend it on a frost strike than lobbing a deathcoil. And frankly, having max RP and gaining more RP at that time is a huge waste. Every time a frost tank misses Frost strikes while having a full RP bar, the Arthas bites off the head of a live arctic bunny. This creates a new undead spawn for the LK encounter which was secretly withheld from PTR. You are not prepared for the multitudes of undead arctic bunny swarms you would create, much like getting tail swiped into whelp caverns, only a thousand times furrier.

SAVE THE ARCTIC BUNNIES! Spec into frost strike and spam it to burn excess RP!!!

Chamenas
12-11-2009, 03:54 PM
REASON: Your Rune based abilities >>> RP based abilties. They should always be on CD unless you are saving a rune for something (a burn phase or a mitigation ability that works off a rune, and something vewy vewy bad is about to happen)

True, however, because of the nature of Rune Strike, it's above all else in priority, however, this partly because it's a next-swing attack and can be used in conjunction with other abilities. That being said, I'd rather use Frost Strike than Icy Touch or Plague Strike if my diseases haven't fallen, and, if I have enough RP, I'd rather use Frost Strike than Obliterate. And blood strike is... well... blood strike.

Because Blood's main ability uses runes instead of runic power, it leaves Blood DKs with more runic power available at any given time (and they're supposed to fire off DCs, but I'm a bad DK and I can't wait to see how many bunnies I've spawned). Still, not wasting RP is definitely key, both in having it maxed and in using Frost Strike when you have little RP to begin with and other abilities to use not on cooldown.

Tanking as Frost definitely has a lot more to think about threatwise than Blood. But I've found it to be equally as capable, at least as DW. I'm having lots of fun. However, I find that I now have less control over my survivability. No more Rune Tap + Vampiric Blood + Icebound Fortitude etc... I just have Icebound Fortitude and Unbreakable Armor.

I've been thinking. Frost has it talented to have a slightly longer Icebound Fortitude. But what if it could be talented to have a smaller cooldown, making it effectively like another cooldown for Frost Tanks. Of course, the problem is that it's the single-most powerful cooldown DKs have in general (other than AMS against burst magic damage).

Insahnity
12-11-2009, 04:07 PM
True, however, because of the nature of Rune Strike, it's above all else in priority, however, this partly because it's a next-swing attack and can be used in conjunction with other abilities. That being said, I'd rather use Frost Strike than Icy Touch or Plague Strike if my diseases haven't fallen, and, if I have enough RP, I'd rather use Frost Strike than Obliterate. And blood strike is... well... blood strike.

If you had said Runestrike has priority above all other threat abilities, then I would agree. Otherwise, keeping enough RP for AMS/IBF/etc. >> RS/FS.

If you have free runes, you should be obliterating/HB or converting those blood runes to death runes ASAP. The frost/unholy rotation is so fast that it's pretty quick to enter a rune blackout period. This is unlike blood, who can extend their blackout period by converting frost/unholy to death via DRM, and then use them off one at a time, thereby avoiding the rapid rune usage other trees face while using two runes simultaneously.



Because Blood's main ability uses runes instead of runic power, it leaves Blood DKs with more runic power available at any given time (and they're supposed to fire off DCs, but I'm a bad DK and I can't wait to see how many bunnies I've spawned). Still, not wasting RP is definitely key, both in having it maxed and in using Frost Strike when you have little RP to begin with and other abilities to use not on cooldown.

The issue for blood is what to do with RP. Most blood tanks don't spec into Dancing Rune Weapon, so all they can do with RP is runestrike or Deathcoil between cooldowns. And quite frankly, it's not nearly as good as frost strike or unholy's Deathcoil with Unholy blight (although the latter is even more lackluster these days). Frost strike aside, Unholy potentially uses it for another spell, corpse explosion, and boy does it eat RP when you get going.

Chamenas
12-11-2009, 05:42 PM
If you had said Runestrike has priority above all other threat abilities, then I would agree. Otherwise, keeping enough RP for AMS/IBF/etc. >> RS/FS.


Quite obviously, though we weren't really discussing cooldowns so I hoped that would be implied.



If you have free runes, you should be obliterating/HB or converting those blood runes to death runes ASAP. The frost/unholy rotation is so fast that it's pretty quick to enter a rune blackout period. This is unlike blood, who can extend their blackout period by converting frost/unholy to death via DRM, and then use them off one at a time, thereby avoiding the rapid rune usage other trees face while using two runes simultaneously.


Whenever they are up, yes. But if Icy Touch or Plague Strike are up and I still have awhile on my diseases, then I usually toss a Frost Strike at the mob while waiting for a Killing Machine proc or the runes to become ready for Oblit/Blood Strike.



The issue for blood is what to do with RP. Most blood tanks don't spec into Dancing Rune Weapon, so all they can do with RP is runestrike or Deathcoil between cooldowns. And quite frankly, it's not nearly as good as frost strike or unholy's Deathcoil with Unholy blight (although the latter is even more lackluster these days). Frost strike aside, Unholy potentially uses it for another spell, corpse explosion, and boy does it eat RP when you get going.

I don't really find it to be an issue. Sitting on RP may not be very elegant, but it doesn't hurt. I enjoyed it because it meant I could runestrike whenever I wanted and not worry about not having enough RP for my cooldowns. My current frost setup mimics this very well, so I'm not complaining.

Swam
12-11-2009, 06:38 PM
I think this is finally generating the back and forth i wanted! I AM PLEASED!

Chamenas
12-11-2009, 06:52 PM
Update your post, foo!

Hammerfists
12-12-2009, 06:09 AM
Someone told me today the 2H Frost tanking is no longer viable and that 1H was the way to go. Can someone clarify for me if this is because there are 1H tanking weapons and if so is it a good idea to with both or one of them as tanking statted weapons. Thanks to the advice glad to see frost back on the DK radar.

Blasterion
12-12-2009, 06:44 AM
The majority of all damage in all raids has always been physical. That may change fight to fight, but unless they give us new tools or ways to handle magic damage in general as tanks, I don't think you'll see it reach an equal split really.
I agree with this besides anything else that needs spell protection is just a AMS away I abuse this cooldown maybe too much though

Chamenas
12-12-2009, 11:27 AM
Someone told me today the 2H Frost tanking is no longer viable and that 1H was the way to go. Can someone clarify for me if this is because there are 1H tanking weapons and if so is it a good idea to with both or one of them as tanking statted weapons. Thanks to the advice glad to see frost back on the DK radar.

I can't answer to whether or not 2h tanking as frost is no longer viable. I will tell you that in 3.2 I went from Frost to Blood for 2 handers because it was no longer viable. That's not to say you couldn't do it, but if you expected to be tanking with high-end DPS in your group, you simply weren't going to hold threat.

Since nothing has really changed between 3.2 to 3.3 for Frost 2-handers, I would presume to say that comment is still true.

However, 3.3 came out with a new rune for 1-handed weapons that mimics Stoneskin Gargoyle. What this means is that you don't need to use a tanking weapon for your one-handers to make up for any lost defense you might have. Instead, you can pick up two DPS weapons and apply the rune to them. Try it out, the TPS is quite nice, and overall threat ends up following from that.


I agree with this besides anything else that needs spell protection is just a AMS away I abuse this cooldown maybe too much though

The main thought from the "opposition" is that AMS is not enough. Even with its relatively short cooldown, there are plenty of fights where you cannot always use it to prevent the large number of spike magic damage attacks that might occur. I haven't seen anything yet to suggest that I should need to use anything other than my AMS every 60 seconds, but my opinion could change. Remember that you don't always have to die to see that something needs to change, think about your healers!

Swam
12-12-2009, 12:57 PM
SO whats the work on unholy tanking right now? Im looking to see where it stands as of 3.3
2 handed dk tanking is still viable but compared to the other specs it really is silly to use. If you want to use a 2 hander I suggest going blood or unholy.

Now on to some 1 handed stuff!
In icecrown I have found that one handers offer a great range. I have been using dps weapons for trash, get that extra bit of omph for fast burns. Bosses I swap out to tanking weps for that extra push of dps and avoidance.
Personially I love the versitility this offers.

Im starting to laugh over the ammount of def I have right now. about 591. I almost feel like blizz keeps pileing on def just for the hell of it. While it is nice to get some extra free avoidance this way , I just feel like they could be doing it in a better way.

Wow this post is disjointed lol

Chamenas
12-12-2009, 02:31 PM
I'm looking to get the Quel'Delar 1-hander sword and its sister blade.

Swam
12-12-2009, 09:23 PM
I found this very Insightful

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/members/swam-albums-funny-times-wow-picture596-situationalawareness.jpg

Also Update on original post is up!

Chamenas
12-13-2009, 08:10 AM
So, as I've been comparing my Blood and Frost specs, I've noticed some pertinent information, both of which are surprising to me:
> My threat is better in Frost. It's that simple. Blood makes it easier to build and hold threat, but as long as I'm not being stupid and mashing buttons, Frost will consistently have higher and better threat then Blood, at least thus far, and this is having 232 weapons in both specs.
> Frost is not a survivable as Blood. This really shocked me, and is still something I'm trying to work around. I tanked the Gormok encounter in Frost without my HP trinkets (Taking Fervor of the Frostborn and the Onyxia trinket). I've done this before in Blood and was just fine, the healers didn't notice anything appreciably different and I forgot to look at the numbers. However, I came so screechingly close to death several times with the same healers as Frost in those trinkets that it was scary. My assumption was that even though I would have less cooldowns to work with, that I would take less damage. Next week I will tank in Blood to see if there's any weight to this (to get a true measure I'll have to tank in both several times).

For anyone curious, this is the Gormok encounter damage:
Impale (DoT) 141923 (38%)
Melee 108222 (29%)
Impale 68087 (18%)
Staggering Stomp (14%)

It is notable of course that the DoT is unavoidable, which is why EH and HP are so much more effective in this encounter. However, as I said, in Blood, if I even got close to low, I could hit Rune Tap, and the constant Death Strikes often steered me away from getting low in the first place. As Frost I got below 5k several times and there was nothing I could do about it. That's not a feeling I like at all.

It's my theory that, in the end, Frost is, as of right now, worse at survival than Blood is, and that it's not just me sucking at playing Frost. When I get some more numbers to play with I might try to do some mathematical (eek) assessments of this.

Swam
12-13-2009, 08:17 AM
You may be Noticing the low health simpily because there is nouthing you can do about it. Blood is great because of all that self healing. I found that I fell away from blood mainly because of the ammout of cool downs that are needed to do your best.

Chamenas
12-13-2009, 08:19 AM
That's why I'm looking for numbers to back up my assertions. But I did also die more often than I died in Blood. The DW Frost was more fun of an experience, but the feeling like paper was not.

Swam
12-13-2009, 08:26 AM
For frost I often have a set up of oh shit cooldows like the pet sacrafice and aotd That are very usefull if used proprely, Most heroics I can down the boss without healing and so far in icc My guild really hasnt had any issuse keeping me up.
Right now the only pull im getting nuked at is in pos after second boss, the two pulls with the casters can be evil with the mob pathing problem added on. I usuially pop a cd going in to help the healer

Chamenas
12-13-2009, 08:33 AM
We only got one attempt on the second boss, however, for the trash pulls I didn't really have an issue. We had one Paladin Repentance and one Priest Shackles to effectively lock down two of their casters. It made the pull so much easier. The High Priests (pulled separately of course) always ended up killing at least one person though (thankfully not the tanks!)

Kaiyoko
12-13-2009, 04:35 PM
Decided to register after lurking all this time. I love my DK and love to tank, but finding a fairly good discussion is hard to find. I've been a Frost tanking DK since April when I switched mains and still am today. I'll like to contribute to the thread and ask a question regarding DW tanking.

@Lulia: I do admit as a Frost tank I envy Blood-spec to get some health back. With Gormok, Lord Marrowgar, and Deathbringer Saurfang, there were times I wish I was Blood and death striking constantly to stay alive. I think one way to somehow reduce the risk of sitting below 10k hp is to specifically use death strike instead of Obliterate at certain points. The downside of Death Striking in a Frost spec will be less threat generated, but I figured "a dead tank is a useless tank at that point" . Some examples where I sometimes death strike over Obliterate:

Gormok: after getting your 2nd or 3rd impale depending on healers.
Lord Marrowgar: if you are not the MT and trying to reduce the strain on healers during transitions.
D-Saurfang after he goes Frenzy (at that point you got more than enough threat to just go survival tanking).
5-man Heroics: When my healer is dead or I don't trust the healer at certain bosses.

Of course what I say is probably only useful in non-heroic mode raids. I suspect in heroic raids that extra healing might not be even enough to buy time for healers. 95% of the time I'm using Obliterate over Death Strike as to keep my threat as high as possible.

About DW vs 2-Hand tanking in frost: I need more time (and money) to run more experiments, but I'm not exactly convinced DW is that great. From what I read else wise its great (and in some cases 1k-2k more TPS). I was only able to test DW tanking in heroics due to being on timers for raids and the lack of a second slow weapon - I was using a Nighttime (ICC-5man) and Ardent Guard (ToC-10). I found my TPS lower than my 2-hand weapon spec Frost. That made me unhappy at the 50g + 30g reglyping that I did.

Thinking maybe my rotations got really sloppy, I did a few test runs on a dummy to make sure I'm doing it right and tried again. I ran another heroic and got the same result of lower TPS. I did read around that I need something like 26 Expertise and 2 slow 1-handers to be really optimal. Am I doing something wrong, wait to test this in a raid, or stick with what I know?

My Armory Link (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mal%27Ganis&n=Setsato) if needed. This would be my gear plus my two 1-hand weapons I stated earlier if I switched to DW-spec. I'm aware my spec isn't 100% optimal but I'm running heroics like mad to help friends/guildies at the moment.

Edit: Ok I'm saved to ToC/ICC/Onyxia's, but no one seems to run Naxx/Ulduar anymore, just want to clear that up about my current timers.

Chamenas
12-13-2009, 06:17 PM
As I've no real desire to spec for 2-handed Frost for testing purposes (if I'm going to 2-hand, it'll be Blood, which, is actually my other spec) I can only offer the numbers that I get. However, in ToC 10 I was consistently pulling 6k TPS on Gormok, with spikes up to 9k (almost 10k) TPS.

For most other bosses the numbers are fairly consistent. But all of this comes from following a few necessary rules.

Use Rune Strike whenever it's up
Keep your diseases up
Don't waste a KM proc on Icy Touch
Use Obliterate when you can
If you have over 60 RP, you can use Frost Strike even without a KM proc (because you'll still have enough RP to Rune Strike if it comes up).
Hit Blood Strike to convert runes


It's fairly straightforward, but more difficult to put in practice. And it's more rule of thumb. sometimes I let my diseases slack a moment because I'm hitting Rune Strike and Frost Strike to dump some RP.

Jagdzeit
12-13-2009, 09:01 PM
Swam, fix ur tank spec its broke

Swam
12-13-2009, 09:06 PM
Swam, fix ur tank spec its broke

Shut up boss, you may be my guild leader but i have incriminating pics.

and

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/members/swam-albums-funny-times-wow-picture671-159871-bicycle-feet-1-vw.jpg

Beevis
12-13-2009, 09:24 PM
The only way to be RP starved beyond the very beginning of a fight is to use too much RP on your RP dump.


Maybe it is just me then because I personally have Rune Strike macro'd for obvious reasons and I have found very few times that a runic dump was needed and more times scraping to get IF or MS fired.

Swam
12-13-2009, 11:46 PM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/members/swam-albums-funny-times-wow-picture680-wowscrnshot-121309-234049.jpg
Here Is my UI as of right now. My raid ui is very minimal as I really only need it to track the health of my raid. The bar at the bottom of the screen is a little bigger that I would like but right now it is sized to my chat box.
My bartender bars are set up in a very intuitive way based off of my speed pad so I can glance cool downs in periphery and flow into the skills.
My top bar is mainly for my pets, mounts, professions etc that are not used in combat.
My tanking cool downs are above my runes and easiest to see.

Satorri
12-14-2009, 07:26 AM
You can resize your chat window, yaknow, silly. You can also change the text size to keep the same amount of lines if you want.


At one time I actually had a special little addon that let me collapse my chat window with a single button, but I found when I would want to see more, I also usually wanted to see the chatter.

Toushiro
12-14-2009, 09:14 AM
not sure what about this tread made me go frost tanking but I did, and really love it.

Swam
12-14-2009, 09:31 AM
You can resize your chat window, yaknow, silly. You can also change the text size to keep the same amount of lines if you want.

Yeah I know, I just dont like it insanely small :p


not sure what about this tread made me go frost tanking but I did, and really love it.
Whoo hooo!

Toushiro
12-14-2009, 09:41 AM
I read somewhere that using a tank and dps weapon works good, which slot should the DPS one been in and the tank one be in?

Swam
12-14-2009, 09:45 AM
A slow dps wep in main hand and the tank wep in the offhand.

Edit: This can be tailored to need. If you are short on threat a second dps wep can be used in your offhand.
At times when you need that extra touch of stam and avoidance, toss on 2 tank weps.
I like to keep 2 of each ready for action and the nice thing is you can switch em up mid pull :D

Satorri
12-14-2009, 09:52 AM
^^

The reason being that your off-hand will always have a damage penalty. If you are going to use one slow and one fast, the slow one in your offhand will have you suffer more total damage lost.

Toushiro
12-14-2009, 10:15 AM
so having Frostblade in MH and Ardent Guard in OH is how it should be then?

Satorri
12-14-2009, 12:11 PM
Ayup. If those are your weapons of choice. =)

That'll make for a nice balance of threat and survival, the armor value will be delicious.

Chamenas
12-14-2009, 01:05 PM
If you're not suffering on defense you can even throw in Rune of the Fallen

Swam
12-14-2009, 05:28 PM
Right now I have about 592 def. Yes an insane amount but hey its more avoidance and im not really doing anything to get more def. I still have the new enchant on my 1 handers for the 2% stam (together) mainly. But the other runes are still very good if you have insane def lol

Toushiro
12-14-2009, 06:24 PM
If you're not suffering on defense you can even throw in Rune of the Fallen

yea I stuck Fallen Crusader on Frostblade, because once I get a good OH from ToC I'm gonna test Frost DPS because no DK in my guild has yet, they're almost all blood spec addicts (they lack the understanding hysteria is the only reason why its good still)

Satorri
12-15-2009, 06:49 AM
I ran HoR with a dual wield Frost DK who was doing close to 5k dps average. It seems to be doing just fine. =)

Fallen Crusader can actually be a kind of hot tool for a dual wield tank if you don't mind the loss of survivability. You still get a little avoidance when it procs, and the heal does not suck, but the threat boost is phenomenal. On a 1-hander it has every opportunity to proc plenty.

Vah
12-15-2009, 06:57 AM
Right now I have about 592 def. Yes an insane amount but hey its more avoidance and im not really doing anything to get more def. I still have the new enchant on my 1 handers for the 2% stam (together) mainly. But the other runes are still very good if you have insane def lol



Your high defense is most likely due to the aweful ony trinket. You could also drop the hodir should enchant and get the gladiator 30 stam enchant.

Swam
12-15-2009, 08:06 AM
Yeah I switch out the ony trink fairly often, I have about 6 tank trinkets so I have my options.
I find I cannot bring myself to get and enchant with resilience on it. I would never hear the end of it from my raid.
But yeah the first thing im going for with frost emblems is a new trink

Satorri
12-15-2009, 08:15 AM
Awful Ony trinket? That is a fantastic avoidance trinket. And to that end, high defense is not bad, or something that should necessarily be avoided (no pun intended). It may not be ideal, but if it just piled up on gear and you're using Ony's Talisman for avoidance, which is not a bad idea, you can just use your enchants and gems for other purposes, where you have a better one.

The defense "cap" is not a cap at all, just the point at which you won't be critable any more.

Chamenas
12-15-2009, 08:32 AM
Your high defense is most likely due to the aweful ony trinket. You could also drop the hodir should enchant and get the gladiator 30 stam enchant.

The awful Ony trinket that he, and I, and many other use when appropriate. It may be awful in certain situations and certain places, but the avoidance it offers is significant and shouldn't ever be looked over, especially since DK tanks rely somewhat on avoidance for their threat.

As for the shoulder enchant suggestion. I followed that advice once, but simply went back to the hodir enchant. The PvP one is a PvP enchant, the 30 stam is nice, but you're simply wasting a stat by putting a pittable amount of resilience on your character that does nothing. With the Hodir shoulder enchant you give yourself room above the uncrittable mark, provide yourself more avoidance through higher defense, and then, of course, there's the direct avoidance boost through the dodge rating. There's nothing bad about it all. The shoulder enchant gives you 300 hp. Somehow I don't think that the 300 hp from that is going to often be the difference between me living or dying from a string of hits.

Satorri
12-15-2009, 08:54 AM
I opted for the Def/Dodge shoulder enchant too. I have no desire to switch now that the defense on my gear is more than enough to keep me above the point where Resilience will have no effect.

I'm all for stacking stamina, but not at any cost, even being a Blood tank.

Chamenas
12-15-2009, 09:11 AM
It is slightly more than 300hp for a DK (Satorri would know the number!) but still fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Satorri
12-15-2009, 09:17 AM
Fully raid buffed, as a Blood tank with 3/3 in Vot3W it's about 375 health.

Not insignificant, but I prefer to get the full def/avoidance value on the shoulders, I hate wasting stats and socket bonuses, inefficient.

Chamenas
12-15-2009, 09:19 AM
Well, yes, it's nice. But is it going to keep you alive longer? In comparison to the hodir one, neither probably will. Thus there's no real reason to switch it up simply for the stamina. And having the shoulder enchant helps balance the stam heavy gemming and such that people are doing, providing a bit better of the proper balance between avoidance and health.

Satorri
12-15-2009, 09:20 AM
It's always about the balance, some people just like to pour everything into health.

Nothing wrong with that, but I try to focus on net value gained for the investment, and I value more than just health.

Swam
12-15-2009, 12:30 PM
I love being able to juggle my trinkets and weapons. Right now I have 9 tank trinkets, 5 of which i carry with me. 6 1 handed weapons of varying stats and enchants. Add to that the 4-6 pieces of tank gear in my bags with differient stats, I can vary in hp from 34k to 37.5k.
Having the gear for the situation I never really understood fully until I engaged in raid content as It came out.

Swam
12-18-2009, 01:44 PM
Ok im starting an old school quest to get thunderfury, Any tips on how to expedite the process?

Chamenas
12-19-2009, 08:51 AM
Just noticed the update. The only thing I noticed is something I likely missed before. As far as special abilities are concerned, so far as I'm aware, 2 1-handed weapons only require 8% hit as well. The melee damage hit cap of 27% applies to 2-handers and 1-handers, it's just that those using 2 1-handed weapons will have a bit more white damage to deal with.

And, in fact, due to Nerves of Cold Steel, any DWing DK only needs 5% hit to cap, since they will have 3% from the talent.

Swam
12-19-2009, 11:46 AM
Yeah the downfall of my guide skillz is my horrible math abilities. When it comes to those nuggets I just try and find reliable sources. I will triple check this. :D

Chamenas
12-20-2009, 02:03 AM
Some numbers on the Saurfang 10 man encounter.
Disclaimer: The numbers from the first fight are from an assumed 9 minutes (we hit the enrage) but the exact time is unclear.

Edit: Enrage timer appears to be 8 minutes, so I need to correct the numbers.

Blood Spec
Damage Taken: 1,184,074
Self-Healing: 75,400 (I know, it's a bit low. I could likely have been slightly more efficient. But I had other things to worry about)
Time: ~9 minutes

Frost Spec:
Damage Taken: 931,488 (extrapolated to a 8 minute length)
Self Healing: 0
Time: 7 minutes and 7 seconds

Some other things to note. I used Icebound Fortitude on the time that I was in Blood, towards the end. I never used Icebound or Unbreakable Armor as Frost (even though I should have). I should have used my cooldowns more efficiently in general, but it was sort of good that I don't have to worry about factoring them into this.

I got the number of 9 minutes by figuring the DPS of the Frost perspective of the encounter and adding in the expected damage. It's subject to a high margin of error most likely, but doubtfully so high as to dissuade me from thinking that at the very least, Frost and Blood stand on level footing.

Vah
12-21-2009, 07:35 AM
The awful Ony trinket that he, and I, and many other use when appropriate. It may be awful in certain situations and certain places, but the avoidance it offers is significant and shouldn't ever be looked over, especially since DK tanks rely somewhat on avoidance for their threat.

As for the shoulder enchant suggestion. I followed that advice once, but simply went back to the hodir enchant. The PvP one is a PvP enchant, the 30 stam is nice, but you're simply wasting a stat by putting a pittable amount of resilience on your character that does nothing. With the Hodir shoulder enchant you give yourself room above the uncrittable mark, provide yourself more avoidance through higher defense, and then, of course, there's the direct avoidance boost through the dodge rating. There's nothing bad about it all. The shoulder enchant gives you 300 hp. Somehow I don't think that the 300 hp from that is going to often be the difference between me living or dying from a string of hits.



I'm sure Edgewalker will attest, there hasn't been one time where i thought 'oh maybe this ony trinket will be a better option for so and so boss'... yet. I can't stomach giving up 2200+ health for 1.4% ish avoidance, oh and that amazing 101 healing per 5.

I apologize as i am under the assumption most people here have cleared the hardest content in the game, or even ToC normal. With the diminishing returns on avoidance at gear levels such as mine, the Stamina is most definitely better than a mere 1% (if that) avoidance from the hodir shoulder enchant. So that string of hits you're referring too, that means 1 in 100 times you will survive by counting on avoidance. There is plenty enough avoidance on gear already, gemming for it or using avoidance trinkets is not necessary.
The only real arguement should be whether to use Stamina or Armor for EH.

Satorri
12-21-2009, 07:42 AM
The special ability hit cap for melee specials is always 8% regardless of weapon choice.

For auto-swings only, there is a cap if you're using a 2-hander or 1-hand with shield, or two 1-handers. 2-handers or Sword n Boards are also 8% miss chance against a raid boss on auto-attacks. Auto-attacks while wielding 2 weapons will bump whatever the normal miss chance is by 19%.

(So against a level 80, 5% miss chance with one weapon, is 24% miss chance for auto-attacks while dual wielding.)

Chamenas
12-21-2009, 03:26 PM
I'm sure Edgewalker will attest, there hasn't been one time where i thought 'oh maybe this ony trinket will be a better option for so and so boss'... yet. I can't stomach giving up 2200+ health for 1.4% ish avoidance, oh and that amazing 101 healing per 5.

I apologize as i am under the assumption most people here have cleared the hardest content in the game, or even ToC normal. With the diminishing returns on avoidance at gear levels such as mine, the Stamina is most definitely better than a mere 1% (if that) avoidance from the hodir shoulder enchant. So that string of hits you're referring too, that means 1 in 100 times you will survive by counting on avoidance. There is plenty enough avoidance on gear already, gemming for it or using avoidance trinkets is not necessary.
The only real arguement should be whether to use Stamina or Armor for EH.

I'm sure you've already made Saurfang harder for your guild with your dogma. But, since your DPS is likely overgeared, you downed him and have no idea that it could have been easier.

Vah
12-21-2009, 04:09 PM
I'm sure you've already made Saurfang harder for your guild with your dogma. But, since your DPS is likely overgeared, you downed him and have no idea that it could have been easier.


I feel as if your post is an attack at me, so in return my question to you would be if you've ever tanked anything hard in this game (you haven't even cleared toc 25 normal) and if you'd prefer me to comb through your spec/gear/gems/enchants to point out why i don't think you know much of what you're talking about.

Swam
12-21-2009, 04:15 PM
Guys none of this hostile crap please.

I believe that Lulia was trying to say that there are fights such as Saurfang where having an extra 1.7% avoidance wound be preferable to a little more stamina. A lot of tanks believe that stam > all. this can lead to problems in some instances.
Personally I have stam goals and once I meet them I start to gem into other stats. For icc my goal is 42k unbuffed and im going to start hybridizing my gems.

Chamenas
12-21-2009, 04:55 PM
I feel as if your post is an attack at me, so in return my question to you would be if you've ever tanked anything hard in this game (you haven't even cleared toc 25 normal) and if you'd prefer me to comb through your spec/gear/gems/enchants to point out why i don't think you know much of what you're talking about.

No, it was an attack on the assumption that stamina is always the right choice. You can pick apart my gem/gear selection all you want and it wont bother me, I stand by my choices because they're the right choices for me. As for avoidance vs. stamina, you choose what's right for the fight you're involved in. Since it's a bit more difficult to change out gems and such, usually that's left down to trinkets. I'd rather have the avoidance mentioned than the stamina in a fight like Saurfang. I welcome more fights where the choice for avoidance is and advantage.

As for content seen. It has nothing to do with a lack on my part of ability, rather, it's due to a lack of capability allowing me to do so. I'd save your venom for something more useful, instead of lashing out at people that don't follow the stamina dogma.

Vah
12-21-2009, 05:34 PM
No, it was an attack on the assumption that stamina is always the right choice. You can pick apart my gem/gear selection all you want and it wont bother me, I stand by my choices because they're the right choices for me. As for avoidance vs. stamina, you choose what's right for the fight you're involved in. Since it's a bit more difficult to change out gems and such, usually that's left down to trinkets. I'd rather have the avoidance mentioned than the stamina in a fight like Saurfang. I welcome more fights where the choice for avoidance is and advantage.

As for content seen. It has nothing to do with a lack on my part of ability, rather, it's due to a lack of capability allowing me to do so. I'd save your venom for something more useful, instead of lashing out at people that don't follow the stamina dogma.


That's my point it's 1.7% avoidance for you, much less for other tanks, and if you want to use that theory, that wouldn't be the best avoidance trinket to use for the encounter. Your correct, it's not worth my 'venom' because i don't feel its worth spending time having a conversation with you specifically as i feel your knowledge of tanking in general is lackluster.

Chamenas
12-21-2009, 05:45 PM
I actually used some lower ilvl avoidance trinkets because of their use effects. I really don't care what you think about my tanking or my tanking knowledge. What I do and what I know can speak for itself and it says other things to people with a less dickish outlook than yourself.

Chamenas
12-21-2009, 06:01 PM
I'm sorry, but my feathers get ruffled when I see such obvious bullying with little weight. Plenty of meh tanks have tanked the hardest content because it's not hard to follow a recipe. At the same time, plenty of good, knowledgeable tanks have never had the chance to tank the hardest content.

The argument that because you haven't tanked the hardest content that you're ignorant and your opinions don't hold water is a cop-out. It's not a fair or reasonable counter-argument to the truth. I admit my original post in response to Vah was a bit harsh, but I made no comment on his tanking knowledge. I didn't say that he hadn't downed it or even done it. I stated a mere, true fact. Assuming he's done Saurfang (since he seems to suggest that he's at the top of the progression I would assume he has) if he sticks to his stamina dogma that much, then he most certainly made that fight more difficult for his guild than he had to. It's the plain and honest truth. Stamina is not always the winner. A good tank, that is truly honest with themselves, understands balance.

Swam
12-22-2009, 12:07 AM
"It's not very likely you'll see a viable two-hand Frost raiding build any time soon. Each death knight tree already offers a good deal of versatility given that there are potential DPS, tanking and PvP avenues in each. They're designed so that players can choose their path based on play style and flavor, not because of role (in the way that a Holy priest who wants to DPS as Holy is out of luck). Trying to also have dual-wield versions from Blood and Unholy builds made the matrix of what we wanted to accomplish a little too large. If there does end up being a viable two-hand Frost build that works, we're not going to go out of our way to break it. That said, we aren't going to go out of our way to promote it either. The Frost tree is currently meant to be a dual-wield tree much in the same way the Fury tree is a dual-wield tree for warriors."
-Zarhym

Blue post confirms what I been saying.

Chamenas
12-22-2009, 03:33 AM
Make the text blue! And put it in a quote!

Satorri
12-22-2009, 07:06 AM
It irks me enough when players do it, but to see Zarhym adopt there ugly use of the term "viable" irritates me.

/grammarnazi

"Viable" means it *can* work, regardless of whether or not it is optimal. 2h Frost can work, it just never will outperform dual wielding with the current state of talents in any way except generating fewer parriable swings (which I don't think is much of anything noticeable).

/endgrammarnazi

I find it irksome that the WoW community has decided to make "viable" the buzzword for sub-optimal. Like Lulia said, the game isn't aimed at min/maxers, not since Sunwell. Not even hard modes.

Swam
12-22-2009, 08:22 AM
I agree with you satorri. I have said several times that frost tank using a 2 handed weapon can be done and work, its just not as effective as the other 2 specs or dual wielding.
Viability to me isnt "the best possible" but can it be done. some things will just outpreform others in most cases. (I may use a 2 hander again just to irk people lol)

Airowird
12-22-2009, 09:05 AM
Some questions for you Swam:

Why no Imp. IT?
Why not mention Chill of the Grave? (Thinking more RS dump here)
Why no Virulance? Most of our abilities are spells, aren't they?

I'm currently aiming for a 5man-oriented talent build like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0eZhxe0hbIof0fuuAocx:Tsa0Mm)

Any thoughts?

Swam
12-22-2009, 09:44 AM
Some questions for you Swam:

Why no Imp. IT?
Why not mention Chill of the Grave? (Thinking more RS dump here)
Why no Virulance? Most of our abilities are spells, aren't they?

I'm currently aiming for a 5man-oriented talent build like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0eZhxe0hbIof0fuuAocx:Tsa0Mm)

Any thoughts?

Ok
1) Imp. IT: While it can be used to slow the mobs and thus take less damage over time, I feel the points can be better spent else ware. I rarely use IT anymore since I use the glyph of howling blast.
2) Chill OTG: Personally I have no use whatsoever for this ability. I am never rp starved. However I prefer scent of blood for any extra pr gain.
3) Virulence is not really needed. I almost never (0.5%) miss and I believe it is more of a pvp skill (with the cleansing ability)

The build you suggest isnt horrible, it will work just fine in 5 mans. I would take killing machine over virulence. If you use IT to apply disease then keeping Imp IT is not a horrible idea.

Chamenas
12-22-2009, 11:09 AM
I'm currently aiming for a 5man-oriented talent build like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0eZhxe0hbIof0fuuAocx:Tsa0Mm)

Any thoughts?

If you'll allow me to put my 2 cents in as well.

I agree fully with Swam in that your points Virulence are probably better spent elsewhere. I also would take the points from Acclimation and use those with the points from Virulence to fill out Killing Machine.

The reason for this is significant and should not be understated. Aside from Rune Strike, a critical Howling Blast or Frost Strike is going to be your most significant threat generation. Rune Strike is always more important, but Frost Strike and Howling Blast can't be devalued or you will lose a portion of what makes DW Frost truly great.

I also am not so much a big fan of Merciless Combat. The deal with that is, when a Boss is below 35% health, your threat should already be so high that you needn't worry about the increase in DPS that some classes may get past that critical point. Most threat issues with tanks occur in the first 10 to 15 seconds. Chances are, if you're having issues with threat later on, you likely had them there in the first place and already possibly knocked off a few DPS (they're disposable, right?) with it. I would be more worried about making it to 35% than keeping threat past that point.

Now, with the points freed up from these two talents you can fill out Bladed Armor. You're a Tank, you have shitloads of armor, all of that armor scales nicely with your threat with 5/5 in Bladed Armor. Taking anything less is significantly gimping your ability to put out threat. Remember that DK Tanks must put out a decent amount of damage to keep threat.

You should have a few extra points, which you can put back in Virulence, or maybe toss them into Epidemic or Morbidity. Truly, there's a lot that you can do with a spec and I wouldn't try to force you into a cookie cutter spec at all, there are just certain key talents that you should not be without. You wouldn't put the 5 points in Anticipation elsewhere, would you?

This is the spec that I use:
Lulia's DW Frost Spec (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=6&tal=0055200000000000000000000000305053003520330003 002331013510050000000000000000000000000000)

I've found that I RP cap quite a bit, and may move some points in Chill of the Grave to something else. Perhaps Epidemic or Morbidity. Virulence wouldn't hurt either. I've missed far too many spells lately for comfort, and I'm above 8% hit in both specs.

@ Satorri - I believe a better term would be competitive? In the end though, what sticks will stick. Gay didn't used to mean homosexual, but now it's commonly accepted that it does. Much to the chagrin of a few people, that is the way that it is now. In the end, the true value of words is that they are what we want them to be. Without the value that we give them, they mean nothing. Even if we misuse descriptive language when generating terminology, the terminology that becomes common usage just tends to stick. But yeah... it irks me too, but now I find myself using it too, just to be understood.

Satorri
12-22-2009, 11:14 AM
I agree on Killing Machine over Virulence. Killing Machine is a pretty impressive buff for a tank, while Virulence is really more of a polish talent to make sure you minimize lost damage from IT (if you even use it) and HB.

Imp IT, however, I happen to disagree on. That's a pretty sizeable survival value. If you consider its effects before other mitigation and avoidance reductions, the talent bumps the standard de-haste on FF from about 10% up to 16.67%. That's roughly 7% reduced melee damage from each target afflicted? Or 2.2% per point? Sounds pretty delectable to me.


Also, as a side note, you can check my math in my guide, but for a typical rotation CotG will get you slightly less RP gains than SoB, point for point, and SoB will do better against lots of targets while CotG will be rock solid regardless of circumstance (and cannot be diminished by RNG unluck like multiple points in SoB can). That said, something I didn't mention is that the bonus RP gain from CotG will grant additional threat where SoB gains will not. It's a small gain, but it could be meaningful. Think of CotG as a tool to get more FS while buffing the threat of OB, HB, and IT slightly.

Airowird
12-22-2009, 11:21 AM
The idea of Imp IT isn't as much that does more damage, it's that you greatly reduce the amount of incoming swings. To compare: the +6% on IT is about as much decrease in incoming swing as going from 0 Expertise to Parry hardcap.
That and I mainly picked up the HB glyph for AoE, don't really use it that much to refresh diseases single-target, so Imp. IT works there as well.

I picked up Virulence for when I get to raiding, but if your experience tells you it's not needed, I guess I can drop it.

I noticed I picked up Acclimation by accident (filling talent tree too fast), so I'll probably be going 13/52/5 with 1 point extra. Any suggestion as to where I should use it?
I'm thinking Subversion/Dark Conviction, or Deathchill/4th in KM.

Read last 2 posts after writing;
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EhZhxe0A0I0c0fuzAo0x:Tsa0Mm would be my build, with 1 point left.
Choices for that last one are:
Deathchill, Subversion, Dark Conviction, Merciless Combat

Reasoning behind all of them:
Deathchill is a nice guaranteed crit, but conflicts with KM (and requires me to think of it)
Merciless Combat is that bit extra dmg for Enrages you might need.
Subversion is a nice crit chance on Blood Strike & Obliterate, which works nice with Guile of Gorefiend
Dark Conviction is pretty much a (boring) 1% dmg increase

Chamenas
12-22-2009, 12:04 PM
I made my suggestions!

Gendrake
12-22-2009, 12:23 PM
Might I suggest using that last point to get Rune Tap? I can't count the number of times a quick rune tap (via blood tap if necessary) has saved my life when my healers are busy getting out of fire and such. I know it's not as powerful without improved rune tap, but it is still significant in those emergency situations where you don't have a health stone.

RedStripe
12-22-2009, 12:24 PM
Nice thread. good info. I guess I'll give my opinion. I think frost is just as good. I'm really enjoying 2hd frost. Since 3.3 and triumph badges rain from the sky I've picked up tanking on my alt DK once again. I can't speak for 25 but I can for 10. my gear isn't the best but is not bad. I tanked A ICC 10. we one shot every boss except saurfang. Healers had to get used to marks and such. My threat was way ahead of any DPS. Unbreakable Armour was up almost every time It was my turn to tank him.

Here's a link to my armory.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Destromath&n=Redstripe)

I prefer frost and hope more people give it a chance.

xKhellendrosx
12-22-2009, 12:45 PM
"It's not very likely you'll see a viable two-hand Frost raiding build any time soon. Each death knight tree already offers a good deal of versatility given that there are potential DPS, tanking and PvP avenues in each. They're designed so that players can choose their path based on play style and flavor, not because of role (in the way that a Holy priest who wants to DPS as Holy is out of luck). Trying to also have dual-wield versions from Blood and Unholy builds made the matrix of what we wanted to accomplish a little too large. If there does end up being a viable two-hand Frost build that works, we're not going to go out of our way to break it. That said, we aren't going to go out of our way to promote it either. The Frost tree is currently meant to be a dual-wield tree much in the same way the Fury tree is a dual-wield tree for warriors."
-Zarhym

Blue post confirms what I been saying.


You understand that Zarhym was refering to 2h Frost DPS, not tanking. 2h Frost tanking works just fine, the one advantage I'd give DW frost is just that you'll end up with more avoidance and 2h you'll end up with more health generally.

Chamenas
12-22-2009, 01:32 PM
DW Frost Tanking will probably have more threat than two-handed Frost Tanking. That's the real lure. The amount of health or avoidance either way won't be terribly significant.

Swam
12-22-2009, 05:46 PM
You understand that Zarhym was refering to 2h Frost DPS, not tanking. 2h Frost tanking works just fine, the one advantage I'd give DW frost is just that you'll end up with more avoidance and 2h you'll end up with more health generally.

If you also noticed I addressed this a few posts later. Frost 2 hndr tanking does work fine, its just not as good as dual wielding or the other two trees 2 hander tanking specs.

Swam
12-22-2009, 05:48 PM
Might I suggest using that last point to get Rune Tap? I can't count the number of times a quick rune tap (via blood tap if necessary) has saved my life when my healers are busy getting out of fire and such. I know it's not as powerful without improved rune tap, but it is still significant in those emergency situations where you don't have a health stone.

No. Rune tap is not a key skill for frost tanks. I would never take this.

Satorri
12-23-2009, 06:48 AM
No harm in taking Rune Tap for any build. If nothing else, it gives you a reusable potion on a shorter cooldown than potions. Not a bad spend of 1 pt.

That said, Frost has soooo many great places to put points it's not remotely essential either.

Chamenas
12-23-2009, 06:50 AM
That said, Frost has soooo many great places to put points it's not remotely essential either.

This.

It's not as if I couldn't use Rune Tap. Nor is it as if my Blood Tank couldn't use Unbreakable Armor. But those things tend to be exclusive of certain builds because, if you go Frost, you're going to want X, Y, and Z from the Frost, Unholy, and Blood tree and none of those include Rune Tap. By the time you've finished getting what you should have, you won't or shouldn't have room for Rune Tap.

It's also about synergy. Rune Tap has great synergy with Blood and Blood Talents, but not with Frost. It could be useful, but there's likely another talent choice that has great Synergy with Frost (Deathchill for example)

Airowird
12-23-2009, 09:51 AM
My personal issues with Deathchill (when specced KM):

It's on-use, meaning I either put it as separate button on my bar or I macro it to either HB or Ob.

Stand-alone:
+ I always choose the situation, so it is never wasted.
- Another button on my bars
- I tend to forget to use those 1-2 minute buffs & cooldowns often enough
- Delay between using DC & HB where KM could proc

Macro on Howling Blast:
+ Maximum benefit from constant use & most gain per use
+ Don't need to think about it
- Good chance to waste it when pressed for KM proc

Macro on Obliterate:
+ No conflict with KM
- Less powerful than HB gain due to +crit from Rime

All of this "yeah, but..." isn't really convincing for DC, but then again, neither are the other arguments. Guess I'll just have to blow a couple of 100g testing out that last talent point :P

Gendrake
12-23-2009, 10:01 AM
Given the build he linked, with one point left, where would you spend it? From what I see your choices are either a handful of places to get more threat, Ravenous Dead for a tiny bit more threat and parry, some utility talents, or Rune Tap.

I don't know about you, but as frost I haven't been having any threat issues since 3.3 (or before 3.3 for that matter), and I don't see the benefits of the more utilitarian talents. That leaves me with the belief that Rune Tap is the most advantageous talent to buy with that last talent point, for a tank.

Next thing I expect you are going to tell me is that as Frost we can't use Death Strike, because it is so much better for Blood. We're tanks, we're supposed to keep the mob's attention and then keep ourselves alive. If we aren't having any problems with the first part then there is no reason not to make the second part easier.

Pwnanapuddin
12-23-2009, 10:07 AM
The reason you wont use DS as frost is because not only will it hit for very little, but the heal will be less than worth wile also compared to the same runes being used for obliterate, which is a much higher threat move, and gives your chance to Rime.

Gendrake
12-23-2009, 10:14 AM
The reason you wont use DS as frost is because not only will it hit for very little, but the heal will be less than worth wile also compared to the same runes being used for obliterate, which is a much higher threat move, and gives your chance to Rime.

And that's true once you have your healthy lead in threat and your healers are running around on Saurfang cause a Blood Beast got loose from a lazy hunter? My point is if threat is under control there is no reason not to take advantage of abilities like Rune Tap and Death Strike to supplement your healers. Will DS strike for measly amounts? Sure, but measly is more than none, and 3 DS in a row add up fast.

I'll put it this way, I've seen more wipes from dead tanks than from slowed DPS, including on fights like Saurfang. If that's the case, then why not take advantage of all the survival abilities at your disposal?

Chamenas
12-23-2009, 11:23 AM
I've almost never used Death Strike as Frost because the amount healed is so little that it won't help in a clutch situation, and will almost always end up in an overheal with how healers are if you're not in danger. So yes, I would say that Death Strike isn't as worthwhile if you're not Blood. That doesn't make it useless, but it has much less synergy than with Blood, just like Rune Tap.

As for Death Chill. I was just tossing it out there as a one-point talent. I don't actually take Death Chill myself anymore, it's just an example of a one-point Frost Talent that has really good synergy within the tree, but wouldn't be terribly useful outside of it (though it certainly could still be used). If you look at any of the current proposed Frost Builds, they all spend their points without using Rune Tap, I'm more than willing to bet you can find something more useful in them than Rune Tap would be for a Frost build.

Satorri
12-24-2009, 06:51 AM
Just so you know, Wartotem, they specifically fixed Deathchill so it couldn't be wasted on a KM proc. It may have gotten lost from tooltips but they made it so it won't be consumed when Killing Machine is active, as that was a fairly common issue.

The value of Deathchill is a *controlled* crit. Threat is more than just total volume, it's timing of volume. I used to love popping it on the opening fire of HB or FS depending on what I was tanking.

Swam
12-26-2009, 08:23 AM
Yeah knowing that when adds pop on lady deathwhisper etc Is great. thet extra threat at the start lets dps dive right in wiht no worries.
Also I just picked up the 264 Frost emblem tank trink. So far im loving the thing. the shield is great for saurfang when your other tank misses a taunt.

Airowird
12-27-2009, 05:02 AM
Ah, thanks Satorri, I didn't knew that, haven't followed DKs from the start.
That would definately make Deatchchill my choice for that last point, thank you :)

Stryker
12-28-2009, 04:19 PM
Weapon choice

Now the big choice in frost abilities lies in weapon choice. 2hander vrs. 2 one handers. 2 handers only require 8% hit and have the
25 defense enchant. however there are no tank specific 2 handed weapons.



I'm a 2h Frost Tank,

I've tried Blood, I've tried Unholy, neither were my style, and I always came back to Frost. I tank ICC10/25 with no issues whatsoever as 2h Frost.

As far as your comment on there being no 2h specific tanking weapons, I have to disagree with you.

I picked up Ramaladni's Blade of Culling (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50798) last week from ICC10, sure it doesn't have Def/Dodge/Parry but having the Expertise, and lots of stam, with 2 Blue sockets make this one of, if not the best 2h DK tanking weapon available atm.

Prodigy
12-28-2009, 04:54 PM
I have switched back and forth a few times between frost and blood spec trying to figure out which is better for threat management. This guide is great for identifying these issues. At any rate, I use the addon Tauntmaster (http://tauntmaster.com) to solve this problem now.

Thanks for the great guide - most that I've found are incredibly outdated!

Swam
12-28-2009, 05:02 PM
I'm a 2h Frost Tank,

I've tried Blood, I've tried Unholy, neither were my style, and I always came back to Frost. I tank ICC10/25 with no issues whatsoever as 2h Frost.

As far as your comment on there being no 2h specific tanking weapons, I have to disagree with you.

I picked up Ramaladni's Blade of Culling (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50798) last week from ICC10, sure it doesn't have Def/Dodge/Parry but having the Expertise, and lots of stam, with 2 Blue sockets make this one of, if not the best 2h DK tanking weapon available atm.

While yes that is a great weapon for you as a tank it is still technically a dps weapon. My statement was aimed at the fact that there are no 2 handed weapons to my knowledge that have defense or avoidance on them.

Swam
12-28-2009, 05:06 PM
I have switched back and forth a few times between frost and blood spec trying to figure out which is better for threat management. This guide is great for identifying these issues. At any rate, I use the addon Tauntmaster (http://tauntmaster.com) to solve this problem now.

Thanks for the great guide - most that I've found are incredibly outdated!


Wow its like healbot for tanks. I hate healbot lol. This I think can be simplified and is included in most other Ui's like xperl and grid. As for ease in taunting I just have my taunts bound to one key (f) (shift f) easier in my opinion.
Not saying that this is useless for everyone, if you find it helps you keep it.

Vah
12-29-2009, 06:46 AM
While yes that is a great weapon for you as a tank it is still technically a dps weapon. My statement was aimed at the fact that there are no 2 handed weapons to my knowledge that have defense or avoidance on them.


Fleshrender - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47516)

That is the current best tanking weapon for a DK. It does indeed have avoidance. Keep in mind avoidance doesn't come from just def/dodge/parry. Not to mention the extra armor...

Chamenas
12-29-2009, 07:40 AM
It's true that it has avoidance due to the agility (plus armor and crit and blah blah blah) but that doesn't make it less of a DPS weapon. Swam's point still stands. All DK tanks using 2-handed weapons will still always have to roll against DPS for their weapons (unless their guild has certain loot rules which might differ for tanks) because any good tanking weapon is also, simultaneously, a good DPS weapon as well. A more true statement is that there are no two-handed weapons at max level which have defense on them, nor are itemized in their effects to have avoidance. Both of which are often marks of a strictly "tank weapon".

Satorri
12-29-2009, 05:00 PM
To be more specific, Vah, Agility weapons (like Fleshrender) will have the most avoidance, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the best tank weapons.

You'll lose a pretty big measure of Strength which will be most noticeable in threat. So the distinction is usually survival vs threat, as with everything else, and as with everything else it's not all A or all B. Strength bumps our parry, and the Agi weapons still give us AP, just not as much.

Dante
12-31-2009, 02:44 PM
What i tend to do with my minor glyph choice no 3 is -

Macro Horn of winter to UA and DG - that way i always have it up at 2mins and just use my third glyph for something else - depends on the patch obviously - ATM i use Bloodtap and pestilence alongside Glyph of raise dead.

Anyway - just thought id chuck that into the mix - allows me to use that third glyph and use my cooldowns and DG pulls always with HoW up unless a warrior has a shout up or another dk has the 3min one - alot of good dks have a rotation to keep it up anyway but this just allows you to multi manage it.

Any thoughts or disagreements are very welcome :) .

---
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aman%27Thul&n=Serender

Also as an after thought id like to ask you guys just how much you think of armor as a dk stat in 3.3 - Im loving it, it seems to stack very well for my build so im using the 60 frost emblem belt alongside triumph armor trinket ...

I seem to be ripping shit up - id love to hear your ideas on that also.

adieu

Satorri
01-01-2010, 06:50 AM
Dante, the one messy bit about macro'ing HoW onto anything is that it takes a GCD. If you macro it to another spell on the GCD (UA) it will only fire the first spell on the macro and the other will get the "busy" signal.

If you macro it onto something that does not (Deathchill) then your macro will use a GCD where Deathchill would not have. The latter case doesn't hurt anything of course, if you're on the GCD it will just use Deathchill and now HoW.

I don't see the point though. I probably refresh it more often than every 2 minutes, but the glyph ensures that when you can't it lasts a bit longer and it will last longer on people who are out of range when you reapply.

No right or wrong choices on glyphs here, just personal choice.


As for armor, it is as hot as ever, and the bonus armor on the Frost gear is pretty impressive.

(and watch the language =D)

Satorri
01-01-2010, 07:46 AM
Keep in mind, any end-game progression tank who would have access to this weapon wouldn't need the extra 100-150ap to make threat standards. You would then need to factor in the actual threat difference with the loss of Strength compared to the AP/Crit/Agi(+crit) from this weapon compared to a DBB. As you stated the 137 agility is far superior to a 150strength weapon(or 42 parry rating after buffs)

1.) We don't *need* more threat -or- more survival. Our gear gets us a sufficient baseline that if you have a rough gear level for the instance you're running everything you do is personal choice to improve your tanking set to meet what you value. For some that value skews more towards threat, for others it skews more towards survival.

Hand-waving about your opinion does not make it fact. You value survival over threat on your weapon, that is sufficient to say.

2.) Let's do a quick threat comparison, because I'm curious.

We can compare the stat values of
Fleshrender - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47516)
to
Grievance - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47520)

Same dps, same ilvl, same sockets, just different attribution. We'll ignore the sockets themselves, but include the socket bonus (Fleshrender is 12 AP, Grievance 6 Str). We'll leave off talent-based Strength multipliers for the moment, but keep Kings/Sanc and Imp GotW, as well as the 10% AP buff. We'll also neglect crit multiplier talents as they add a tree specific consideration that would also require us to break down specific spell usage.

Stats:
Fleshrender = 200 AP, 102 Crit, 94 Hit, 137 Agi, 170 Stam
Grievance = 164 Strength, 96 Crit, 92 Expertise, 174 Stam

There are some slight shifts in itemization, so we can't scrutinize too closely on some of it. That said, if you aren't hit soft-capped 94 hit rating is 2.87% reduced miss chance on physical hits. 92 Expertise on the other hand is 2.81% reduced chance to not connect if you're over the soft cap, 5.62% if you're under. Let's let that be a wash, and take the stamina the same way, 4 stam is pretty minor.

So, the 164 Str from Grievance is 368 AP without Str% talents, but with raid buffs. If you apply Trueshot Aura, Unleashed Rage, Abominable Might, the two weapons have:
Fleshrender = 220 AP
Grievance = 405 AP

Grievance will have 185 more AP.

For crit chance, Fleshrender has 6 more crit rating and 137 Agi. For a DK 137 agility, with the same raid buffs, is 2.46% crit chance. 6 crit rating will be 0.13% more, so Fleshrender will have 2.59% more crit chance.

So the comparison will be 185 AP vs 2.59% crit chance. If we have no altered crit multipliers, 2.59% crit chance is essentially 2.59% more damage. AP is applied through factors in various items. I don't want to break down every spell, but let's look at it just in terms of melee swings.

Our weapons have almost the same dps, so if we take the DK as having 5k AP before considering weapon stats, they will do:
Fleshrender = 1286 dmg per swing
Grievance = 1287 dmg per swing

If we add in each weapon's stats that becomes:
Fleshrender = 1302 dmg per swing
Grievance = 1316 dmg per swing

Factor in the crit chance difference, i.e. add 2.59% damage to Fleshrender, and you get:
Fleshrender = 1336 dmg per swing
Grievance = 1316 dmg per swing

So you can expect to do 20 more damage per swing on average, when you factor in crit chance, and neglect hit chance. If we factor in the relative hit chances, and to be generous we'll say we're *not* at the soft-cap for hit or expertise (assuming your gear is either not set up for threat, which is what you're placing your aims on, or assuming that you're using your weapon to balance your stats, generally reasonable). Grievance will then get 2.75% more hits, which for all intents and purposes will average out to 2.75% more damage, or:

Fleshrender = 1336 dmg per swing
Grievance = 1352 dmg per swing

So, for melee swings we're just squabbling over 10-20 pts of damage back and forth here.

Let's consider a different ability. This is a tanking thread so let's look at Rune Strike, one of our biggest threat abilities. A Rune Strike with each weapon, using the same standard AP as above:

RS(Fleshrender) = 2736
RS(Grievance) = 2785

So, now we're looking at a 50 damage (75 threat) difference. Still not a big whopping deal, a ~1.8% damage difference, or ~3.6% threat difference.

So let's consider the survival differences now.

The 137 agility, with raid buffs, will be roughly 1.4% dodge after diminishing returns with typical gear for the level at which you'd have these weapons. Alternately, the Strength from Grievance, with raid buffs, will work out to be about 0.65% parry with typical diminishing returns for this level. The difference will be about 0.75% in favor of Fleshrender, if you take dodge and parry % with equal value.

So, the comparative survival breakdowns from the two weapons (again leaving off the talent-based Str/Stam multipliers, but taking raid buffs and Frost Pres):
Fleshrender = +0.75% avoidance, +307 armor
Grievance = +49 health

In addition, if you're doing this with a Blood spec (~8% additional Str scaling), and adding the % multiplier from 2-hand spec, and the 10% multiplier from B-G, and the armor ignore from B-G, the multipliers widen the gap noticeably in favor of Grievance.

So, the final breakdown is Threat (Grievance) or Survival (Fleshrender). The differences are relatively small, but not negligible.

If you want to personally favor survival to threat on your weapon, that's fine, but it's not absolute, it's personal preference.


And "please stop posting" is not constructive.

Swam
01-01-2010, 11:06 AM
Satorri, this is why I love you, your good with Arithmatics.

Kaiyoko
01-01-2010, 02:30 PM
Satorri's breakdown of the two weapons in question earlier in the thread offers a in-depth look with the conclusion "Pick your poison" deal. I don't think I can look at weapons the "easy way" after reading that.

Just as a matter of opinion: I think while there are better options out there, Ramaladni's is not a bad axe, considering it drops in ICC-10. I think its early accessablity makes it a great alternative for those that can't access ToGC kills or have terrible weapon luck. If anything, this weapon did help me cover a expertise problem I've been struggling with.

I can't wait to see how Frost spec handles as we go deeper into ICC with another wing opening up soon.

Bloodwraith
01-03-2010, 09:35 AM
Let's keep the discussion on topic guys.

Hyperios
01-03-2010, 10:21 AM
Satorri, this is why I love you, your good with Arithmatics.


If he was in my guild we would call him the "Guild Mathmagician"

Swam
01-09-2010, 08:53 AM
So I have hit the new bosses this week. Having an easy time controling the blobs. The use of ranged aoe's and chains of ice on the small blobs work very well for keeping the kiting on your terms. I think For this fight at least we have a strong advantage over other tanks.

Chamenas
01-09-2010, 09:39 AM
We'll see what my guild can do tonight and if I can get a chance to see them, but the DPS in my group is very very low. :-/

RedStripe
01-12-2010, 03:27 PM
I dual Spec tank blood and tank frost. So far I have been switching it up in ICC. One fight i found frost to really shine was Festergut. Anyone else notice the difference on him from Blood to Frost? By the 8th stack on the other tank, he had 3 inhales. I taunted hit UA minimal dmg and 4th inhale hit the 18 sec IBF and then got Pain suppression. Through the whole fight DMG just seemed lower. Or its my brain playing tricks.

Chamenas
01-12-2010, 05:25 PM
Damage should be lower as Frost than Blood regardless of the fight. But my guild only got one attempt in before calling it a night :(, so I cant say much about that specific encounter.

Emi
01-13-2010, 03:02 AM
I dual Spec tank blood and tank frost. So far I have been switching it up in ICC. One fight i found frost to really shine was Festergut. Anyone else notice the difference on him from Blood to Frost? By the 8th stack on the other tank, he had 3 inhales. I taunted hit UA minimal dmg and 4th inhale hit the 18 sec IBF and then got Pain suppression. Through the whole fight DMG just seemed lower. Or its my brain playing tricks.
If it is then its playing tricks with mine as well. Went frost for it as well. In the end i took an average dmg of ~17.7k while the warrior took ~21.7k.

A 4k diference per hit is not bad, not bad at all ;)

Satorri
01-13-2010, 10:52 AM
I found a DK tank to top the list of "Things that make Satorri cry"

Dual wield DK, frost spec'd.

No Blade Barrier
No Threat of Thassarian
with Morbidity
1/2 in Epidemic
1/3 in SoB
2/2 Merciless Combat
2/2 Runic Power Mastery
(3/3 Nerves of Cold Steel)


*heartbreak*

Swam
01-13-2010, 11:22 AM
There is a dk that when I found him had 1 point in every talent he could. yeah no more than 1 per skill. shudder

Chamenas
01-13-2010, 04:32 PM
I'm thinking of putting a point back into morbidity. Howling Blast and Blood Boil simply aren't enough for me, and I can't rely on Rime to proc. Especially when I need to pull, I find I have to toss DnD down, and in heroics especially I find myself able to pull trash faster than the cooldown wears off. It wouldnt lose its usefulness in raids either since it just adds more threat.

Swam
01-26-2010, 12:35 AM
Whoo hoo! Due to the hate for unholy dk's I have given my second spec over to unholy tanking. So far its a nice addition to frost tanking. I use my frost spec for most fights. Melee or physical damage is frosts little girl. However Unholy eats magic damage like an Irish dock worker downs whiskey. Having both is a great asset to tanks and for dk's I can actually recommend using dual spec for two tank specs. Unholy may not have the threat of the other two in most instances, or maybe im just not as good with unholy. (this is possible as I have only been unholy for 2 weeks.) However Unholy Is definitely a very strong spec in certain situations. A decent spec for any situation. While it may be a little harder to heal sometimes I think that anyone who shoots down unholy tanks should be spanked with a frat paddle.
.... Thats not mean is it?

Proletaria
01-26-2010, 12:58 AM
I applaud your unique and anti-establishment approach to selecting tanking specs for testing (and agree unholy has it's moments), but anyone who champions unholy for most content should be spanked with a frat paddle aswell. We've got two other talent trees that out-perform it in almost every icc encounter for threat and survivability.

I'd much rather hear about what 'certain situations' you think unholy really excels at than what unholy nay-sayers should be struck with.

Swam
01-26-2010, 11:31 AM
For starters there are several spots in heroics where Unholy is amazing, most of pit os saron is ideal for unholy. In raiding I am going to try Unholy in archavon and see the comparison But I think that Unholy will preform well. Also in Icc I think unholy will be very strong on the bone dragon, but not 100% on that yet.
Nice thing is having both specs if i really wanted i could swap back and forth between pulls so I always have the best defense.

Swam
02-12-2010, 06:04 PM
OK I have seen more and more unholy recently. the past 4 dks to join my guild have all have unholy as either dps or tank. Time to move on. My unholy tank spec has now gone back to dps. the least seen dk dps spec. Frost. yes It needs a lot of hit but so far im rocking it pretty well. ill throw some more on here as i learn the rotation for dps a bit.

Satorri
02-13-2010, 06:04 AM
I love dual wield Frost DPS, that was my first love for the frost tree (and incidentally I was thrilled when they added ToT, ha ha).

The funny thing is I haven't done it since Ulduar. Which reminds me, I think it was the Ulduar PTR where it was amazing; they tried for a while to do HB without a cooldown! (at the time HB also hit harder than OB on a FF diseased target, I was just spamming HB on every FU pair, imagine 6-7k crit spam on unlimited targets, my dps was obscene, obviously that didn't make it live).

Swam
02-20-2010, 08:52 AM
Alrighty. So far frost dps has been fun! I went into the blood tree after the frost points which from what I have seen is a pretty unused spec. However with my dps gear which is mostly 232 with a few 213/219 and 3 251's. I have been putting out decient numbers.
5 mans: 3500 single target 7-9k aoe groups
10 mans: 4500 single target 8-14k aoe groups
25 mans: 5500 single target 12-19k aoe groups
While I am not toping the charts I think for my gear and it being off spec I am doing fairly well. The big problem I had at first was the ammount of hit needed to get my miss/dodge/parry down. im at 16% right now and that seems to be working well.

I was thinking about the dps difference between going down the blood tree vs the unholy tree. I may do some testing here when I have the time :p

Swam
02-20-2010, 08:56 AM
Death Knight

Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence.
Rune of Razorice: Now stacks 5 stacks of 2% Frost Vulnerability instead of 10 stacks of 1% Frost Vulnerability. Proc chance changed to 100%.

Blood

Abomination's Might: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc on certain strikes. Rank 1 is 5% attack power and Rank 2 is 10% attack power. The self strength buff remains unchanged.
Will of the Necropolis: There is no longer a cooldown on the frequency at which this talent can be activated. In addition, this ability can now also be triggered by damage which deals less than 5% of your health.

Frost

Endless Winter: No longer causes Frost Fever to be applied by Chains of Ice, but instead grants 2/4% strength. The previous functionality of this talent can now be attained via the Glyph of Chains of Ice.
Improved Icy Talons: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc. The self haste buff remains unchanged.
Nerves of Cold Steel: Now increases off-hand damage by 8/16/25%, up from 5/10/15%.
Unbreakable Armor: The amount of strength granted is now 20%, up from 10%.

Unholy

Scourge Strike: Now deals 70% weapon damage, plus 12% of physical damage done as shadow damage for each of the death knight's diseases on the target. The net result should be larger strikes with no diseases present, while maximum damage with all diseases applied to the target should stay the same.

This may be just me but I have no complaints with this patch. Looks like a good dps boost for frost so moar threat, which is always good.

Edgewalker
02-20-2010, 09:15 PM
Frost gets more threat, but Blood gets a talent that should basically be mandatory for Sindragosa, Lich King, and every hard mode tanking.
:(

dotJEM
02-21-2010, 06:13 AM
I found a DK tank to top the list of "Things that make Satorri cry"

Dual wield DK, frost spec'd.

No Blade Barrier
No Threat of Thassarian
with Morbidity
1/2 in Epidemic
1/3 in SoB
2/2 Merciless Combat
2/2 Runic Power Mastery
(3/3 Nerves of Cold Steel)


*heartbreak*

Thats not that bad... Ive had the following to heal in a random heroic...

Dual wield DK, Frost/Unholy spec'd.

No BB (No Blood talents at all)
No Imp IT
No Nerves of Cold Steel
No Threat of Thassarian
With Scourge Strike

Using 2 tanking weapons with offensive runes.

And i remember it so clearly because i pulled agg of him "a few" times..
so i inspected him and saw his tanking weapons and though "OMG FAIL"... at that point not realizing what spec he was.
That was first until i inspected him near the end boss again after inspecting what abilities he used to try and figure out his "rotation"...
Where i then saw SS in there and thought WTF!? o.O... so i extended my inspection of him to his spec... and was like...
"Ok... I'm an idiot, I thought he failed when he used tanking weapons with offensive runes..."
But seeing that was just the tip of the ice, I realized I was the failure for having stayed >.<

Swam
03-05-2010, 01:48 PM
Tank Threat Generation
I'm talking philosophy here, because I assume that's usually more interesting to a wider audience. Philosophically, tank threat generation is working correctly (i.e. as we intend) with perhaps 4-5 exceptions that we would like to fix:

1) Paladins can do a little too much AE tanking "splash" damage, often without even setting out to do so.
2) Tricks and MD take too much of a burden off of the tank / hide issue #3.
3) Damage and therefore threat generation aren't scaling well at very high levels of gear. <-- this is the big one.
4) There is too much incentive to AE every pull, which puts a burden on the tank to AE tank every pull.
5) You could probably add that bears need a button to hit besides Swipe. (Source (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/23425588028-do-warriors-really-need-another-cleave.html))

Overgearing instances
Yeah, overgearing the content is fine. Being able to zerg an instance is one of the fun parts of overgearing. We're not worried about that. But on content at appropriate level, it wouldn't be so bad if *some* of the pulls required more crowd control and single-target damage. (Source (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/23425588028-do-warriors-really-need-another-cleave.html))

Tanking
Is threat fun?
When threat doesn't matter as a tank, then maximizing your rotation doesn't matter much either. To use the warrior example, you could skip Devastate, Revenge and Shield Slam and just autoattack and use defensive cooldowns. Is that fun? On the other hand, many of the requests we see are for harder hitting attacks, especially on the AE front, so that in essence it's less work to tank multiple mobs at once. Is this really what you want?

I would assert in the current game that threat is almost never an issue. It might be an issue in the first few seconds of a fight (including when new adds join the party) or when the dps severely outgear the tank (such as in a Dungeon Finder situation). Especially in a world with Misdirect, Tricks of the Trade, and Tauntable bosses, tanks on single-target raid fights get so far ahead of the dps and healers, that catching them would be almost impossible. We could definitely tone this down a little such that tanks needed to fight for threat a little more than they do now. Some players would welcome that change and some would say that Blizzard hates tanks and makes them work too hard. (Source (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/23425705299-is-threat-fun.html))

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/icons/ideathknights.gif Death Knight (Forums (http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-death-knight/) / Talent Calculator (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight))
Icy Talons changes clarifications
You put 5 points in Icy Talons. While fighting (and applying Frost Fever), you swing 20% faster. If you have talented Windfury Totem on you, you swing a total of 40% faster.

You now put a 6th point in Improved Icy Talons as well. You have a passive personal 25% haste at all times. When you engage in combat and apply Frost Fever, you now have 45% melee haste. If you have Windfury also, you still only have 45% haste since Windfury and Improved Icy Talons are exclusive.

This is basically a 20% haste buff to any DK who has Icy Talons and Improved Icy Talons. (Source (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/23425523023-please-clarify-this-dk-note-iit.html))

OK throwing all that up there for discussion. With all the hype over blood getting a survival buff I thought I would shout the happiness I have with frost changes. Especially with Blizz's plans to make threat a bit more active. Getting a nice damage and threat buff makes me very happy. Definitely puts a lot more love on the icy tallons points. right now im working on switching up talents etc to see what the best specs are. As i fiddle and faddle I will throw up some new specs and once more changes go live I will update the op.

Swam
03-06-2010, 12:52 PM
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSH_iKqLtJEoP,,11623
I think this is going to be my spec next patch. Im loosing mainly a little rp gain and merciless combat but I think its worth it.
thoughts?

Satorri
03-08-2010, 09:41 AM
It looks like a spec that sacrifices a bit of personal gains for the sake of providing Icy Talons to your raid, yes?

Otherwise it doesn't look bad, though I'm always sad to see points taken out of Bladed Armor, I wouldn't miss Merciless Combat.

Emi
03-08-2010, 10:42 AM
I'd say "a bit" is an understatement. Im doubtful if you'll be able to generate enough RP without CotG and SoB with that spec.

Swam
03-08-2010, 01:44 PM
i only have 1 point in sob right now and have no problems with rp so thats not a worry. and yes its not prefect but if they are buffing Icy Tallons as much as they say they are it may be worth it, the key for me will be finding the balance, thats just the first draft.

Satorri
03-09-2010, 05:56 AM
What buff did you think was coming for Icy Talons? The only one I heard was that they're fixing it so that Glyph of Disease refreshes Imp/Icy Talons as it was supposed to.

Swam
03-09-2010, 07:16 AM
whoops, yeah im an idiot, misread a post :p man that makes me feel really smart lol

Emi
03-09-2010, 07:52 AM
i only have 1 point in sob right now and have no problems with rp so thats not a worry. and yes its not prefect but if they are buffing Icy Tallons as much as they say they are it may be worth it, the key for me will be finding the balance, thats just the first draft.
I doubt you have enough RP to satisfy those KM procs specially considering you have 5/5 there. That or you're losing them just waiting for Rime in order to use HB. I had a vaguely similar spec sometime ago and found myself losing too many KM procs to my liking due to being low on RP. In the end i just tried to find a balance between RP generation talents and KM.

And as a suggestion, lose those points in MC, they're really not worth it. Deathchill also not worth it. Acclimation is also passable imo and i find IIT is a must have for any tank.

Prunetracy
03-09-2010, 09:51 PM
What buff did you think was coming for Icy Talons? The only one I heard was that they're fixing it so that Glyph of Disease refreshes Imp/Icy Talons as it was supposed to.
Icy Talons will now give Frost DKs an additional 20% haste that stacks with Windfury and Imp Icy Talons.

So:
5/5 Icy Talons: 20% haste
5/5 Icy Talons + WF: 20% passive +20% WF haste
5/5 Icy Talons + IIT: 25% passive +20% IIT/WF(does not stack)

That's a pretty huge buff to the talent.

source (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23425523023&pageNo=2&sid=1#22)

Satorri
03-10-2010, 10:14 AM
That is a nice effect. 20% melee haste will supe up your white damage and availability for RS procs very nicely (though that is all).

Have to chew on this one a bit.

Prunetracy
03-10-2010, 10:40 AM
Yeah, I'm not sure how great it is for tanking, especially given how inflexible the current DW spec is, but it's worth looking into. 2H would have an easier time picking up the 6 points. It's a huge buff for Frost DPS, though.

I'm also curious about the Endless winter buff. 4% strength should be good for threat, with a nice side effect of having free interrupts.

skox
03-10-2010, 02:22 PM
It's a total of 45% haste, I have a build I am looking at that will be deep frost and take 2 in SoB, but to do that i have to steal a couple of points either from KM or or Black Ice. not sure which is the best to lose the points from I actually posted on the Halp forums about it.

Swam
03-10-2010, 05:09 PM
yeah i have to say I have never had rp problems, ever. dont know why so many think of this as a huge issue across the board. I am reworking the spec again, right now my only unhappiness in the spec is only 2 points in bladed armor. now the question i want thrown around is the optimum points to put into icy talons. 9 points is a bit much, right now im thinking 6-7 would probably be best. with only 6 or so points in icy talons i dont loose much in the way of personal abilities.

Chamenas
03-10-2010, 05:36 PM
That is a nice effect. 20% melee haste will supe up your white damage and availability for RS procs very nicely (though that is all).

Have to chew on this one a bit.

It will still be too expensive for the investment, threatwise. But I'd like to see what you come up with.

Satorri
03-11-2010, 06:25 AM
There may be some math warranted, some testing. As it now will provide 4% more damage (essentially) per point to melee damage, and depending on your proc rate and weapon style it could buff your RS usage as well, it actually starts to resemble the effect of Necrosis, just a bit less statically effective.

The crucial detail I think will hinge on your effective use of RS. If you have procs being wasted (i.e. higher avoidance with a 2-hander) it could be a nice value for picking those up. If you're dual wielding it may be a slightly weaker value on the RS front since you are likely wasting fewer procs, but it will gain a little value back as white damage will be somewhat stronger for a dual wielder.

It would be interesting to see actually, if anyone is savvy with addons, if you could collect data on how many procs of RS are wasted. If you made an addon that tracked the combat log and tested how many RS procs/refreshes are missed it could help decipher the value of this haste for overall threat. If anyone wants to take up the challenge the idea is something like this: Every time we dodge or parry it procs a possible RS. If A.) we get two dodge/parries between melee hits, any past the first are wasted, and B.) If there is one or more dodge/parry followed by a non-RS melee swing then the player didn't trigger the on-use quickly enough and those procs are wasted.

This stirs the pot a little, that's always fun. =)

I also agree that it will be generally more interesting to DPSers but it is a meaningful change for Frosties for sure.

Lilithium
03-11-2010, 10:12 AM
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSQO-Y7be9pYAi,YwI,11623

That's probably what I'd do for frost if I were seeking to get the Icy Talons buffs.

Swam
03-11-2010, 10:21 AM
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSH_i2vix41F,,11623
I like this a bit more, only a few differences. I think this gives the best spread of benefits with the fewest drawbacks. while not as raid buffy it still helps you out a lot.

for dps im thinking this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#ao8HaYtIW_vTD,,11623

again im playing around with stuff a lot here.

Lilithium
03-11-2010, 10:49 AM
I take issue with the first spec, only in that Icy Talons really feels like one of those "all or nothing" sort of talents. Just a personal opinion, really.

As far as the second one's concerned, I don't see the point of having 1 in toughness, and taking Deathchill. I'm pretty sure that DW Frost 3.3.3 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#OdMbF40iE5NUUe,,11623) has been tested, and shown to be the highest dps. Feel free to correct me, if you know something I don't

xulev
03-11-2010, 01:15 PM
You can pull it off pretty well with 2 hand frost.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSQqYyYiaCDAc_,wIa,11623 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSQRKp0HpuqFz8,wIa,11623

Problem I have with DW is there just aint enough talent points.

Well, frost in general is too heavy on "required" talent points. They really need to cut down on some of the 5 pointers.

Swam
03-11-2010, 03:12 PM
I take issue with the first spec, only in that Icy Talons really feels like one of those "all or nothing" sort of talents. Just a personal opinion, really.

As far as the second one's concerned, I don't see the point of having 1 in toughness, and taking Deathchill. I'm pretty sure that DW Frost 3.3.3 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#OdMbF40iE5NUUe,,11623) has been tested, and shown to be the highest dps. Feel free to correct me, if you know something I don't

OK I dont agree with the all or nothing for icy talons. The final tallent is mainly for raid buffs and I have 16% instead of 20% haste so not a huge difference.

as for the dps spec I like to play around with specs that are not the cookie cutter norm, i can pull pretty solid dps right now with a very similar spec. deathchil i like for dps specs as a guaranteed crit, and the point in toughness I thought would work better as my spare point as it boosts armor, and with bladed armor that means more ap. so there is a method to my madness. seeing as dps is my offspec and i dont worry about it to much I do fairly well. I see why the unholy tree is more popular for frost dps, i may give it a try eventually.


Also I really am against 2 handed frost, If you want to go and use a 2 hander go blood or unholy. Frost is designed around dual wielding, while i agree its stretched thin right now point wise.

xulev
03-11-2010, 03:20 PM
2hand frost works fine, I don't really see it being vastly inferior at all. I've played around with dw and 2 hand (and other trees) and I just like the frost playstyle. Truth be told I haven't seen much an advantage to dw over 2 hand. I'll likely stick with whatever I have the better weapon(s) for. I know I've heard the lament of 2 hand frost is a dead spec, but honestly it works fine. It's great threat and great ae threat, with great survivability.

xulev
03-11-2010, 03:33 PM
Also I really am against 2 handed frost, If you want to go and use a 2 hander go blood or unholy. Frost is designed around dual wielding, while i agree its stretched thin right now point wise.

Well it is the "Frost Tank Guide".

I really don't see the stigma to 2 hand frost at all, or any real disadvantages to it. The only real thing you can say is "blood is better" but that's because blood was made easy with more talent points you can spend and much more bang for the buck. By that logic it's better than dw as well.

I leveled my dk in early wotlk to be a tank. I've been frost 99% of the time. Well before the dw talents "frost is designed around" were even in the tree. It works fine, it's certainly a viable 2 hand spec. The only little wrinkle to it is that you really have to switch from single disease to dual disease, sometimes on the fly, to make it work. it's a much different playstyle than other 2 hand dk tanking specs, one capable of making the button mashing pally tank cry when he can't pick up a mob off you without taunting. Honestly with the change to icy touch it gets even better...

Pestiilence
03-11-2010, 10:03 PM
I personally MT with 2 hand frost, I was a big fan of DW, but have since changed to a 2hander. I have zero threat problems on Single target and with the new threat buff to Icy Touch I will bang out of the gate that much more. On trash the only ones that can touch me in threat is a Pally tank. I know the healers prefer my none squishy state much more than Blood.
I Currently run.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Rexxar&cn=Pestiilence&gn=Edge+of+Chaos

But was thinking of using:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSQHYf0OGc506B,Iaw-3O,11623

xulev
03-11-2010, 10:55 PM
I've played around with low or no killing machine to free up points. I've found it's a much better talent than I thought.

But I really would like to see why people consider 2 hand frost to be not viable. Even if it's just the blood comparison, that I get to a degree. From my experience I've found no real advantage over it with dw, so I would really like to see what is considered the "poor scaling" to frost or weakness versus dw as 2 hand. From my experience I haven't seen it at all.

Emi
03-12-2010, 02:56 AM
But I really would like to see why people consider 2 hand frost to be not viable. Even if it's just the blood comparison, that I get to a degree. From my experience I've found no real advantage over it with dw, so I would really like to see what is considered the "poor scaling" to frost or weakness versus dw as 2 hand....
Comparatively speaking it is perfectly viable. Whoever says otherwise should have their head examined. The fact that frost is the only viable tree for DW doesnt automatically make its 2H "version" not viable.

Edgewalker
03-12-2010, 09:10 AM
Also I really am against 2 handed frost, If you want to go and use a 2 hander go blood or unholy. Frost is designed around dual wielding, while i agree its stretched thin right now point wise.

This is, loosely, a guide, so you would be wise to keep your comments as the author based in facts. There are 2 talents in frost that are dual wield oriented, and the tree is virtually the same as it was before ToT was added. 2H frost is completely viable for tanking, and really doesn't suffer much overall noticeable loss especially since the changes to Killing Machine / SoB not working off Rune Strikes. When Blizzard talks about Frost as a DW tree, they are doing so in regards to DPS, where it simply isn't competitive.
Also in the grander scheme of balance, 2H frost generally nets you more stamina than DW frost, it frees up a chunk of talent points, and it is definitely a better overall spec than Unholy for most ICC bosses.

Edgewalker
03-12-2010, 09:22 AM
as for the dps spec I like to play around with specs that are not the cookie cutter norm, i can pull pretty solid dps right now with a very similar spec. deathchil i like for dps specs as a guaranteed crit, and the point in toughness I thought would work better as my spare point as it boosts armor, and with bladed armor that means more ap. so there is a method to my madness. seeing as dps is my offspec and i dont worry about it to much I do fairly well. .

Cookie cutter specs are cookie cutter because they are generally completely optimized. DPS is a lot less flexible than tanking for maximum performance because it deals in absolutes, there are a lot less random variables.

Kanzer
03-12-2010, 11:38 AM
Cookie cutter specs are cookie cutter because they are generally completely optimized. DPS is a lot less flexible than tanking for maximum performance because it deals in absolutes, there are a lot less random variables.

^ This

As a DK tanking is something you generally have several options with, and can go several different directions within any given tree. DPS sadly doesn't work the same.

Swam
05-29-2010, 11:41 PM
Ok thanks all for for those who read and enjoyed this guide. I will not be updating it anymore as frost is going out in a few months tanking wise. I will miss it and hope to find similar joy when I go back to my warrior tank gramaton. I have just found dk tanking not as fun as the warrior with changes they are bringing up in cata. we shall see how things pan out. enjoy and keep on tankin.
your pal
Swam