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View Full Version : TOCR 10 NormalBeasts of Northrend Destroying me through Massive Heals



Kuraudo
11-20-2009, 12:17 AM
Hello, longtime lurker, but a recent traumatizing event in Trial of the Crusader 10 man normal version convinced me to seek the advice of my betters, so here I go.

We recently have decided that our dps is solid enough to try the ToCr10 normal modes. I am a protection warrior and fairly well geared from mostly welfare epic badge gear, so it was thought that we should be able to handle things nicely.

Before I continue, my armory:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=The+Venture+Co&n=Kuraudo)

Our offtank's:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=The+Venture+Co&n=Usarkar)

Usarkar (the offtank) and I decided that 3 stacks of impale was a good time to go ahead and make the switch so long as impale had worn off of the other tank.

We went with that plan and Gormok was being burned down incredibly fast, but out of nowhere it appeared as if Gormok had one shot me when I taunted him back off of the offtank.

Looking at the combat log, I saw 3 melee hits in a row with no heals in between, so I assumed it was a fluke. Usarkar, our offtank, proceeded to take the fight from there and then tank both jormungarr until he was taken down.

This process repeated as we tried different healing setups. Finally, during the last attempt of the night, our offtank Usarkar proceeded to tank Gormok through 6 stacks of impale, kill him over a long period, and then finish off both Jormungarr while I was eating coliseum pavement.

I am not sure how incredible or non incredible it is for one tank to take both worms, but I was astonished that not only did it work, but if not for a fluke on icehowl where someone dc'd during his charge, we would have cleared the encounter.

I would love advice on what I should be doing to survive this, but after that massive embarrassment I think I'll need more advice on how to convince my guild to continue letting me tank at all.

My first course of action will be to replace all my expertise enchants and gems with stamina, make no mistake. I could probably stand to add more avoidance as well, but please help me with this difficult situation. I know that warriors are spiky, but that was far too spiky to be normal.

Thank you for your time!

Lucinam
11-20-2009, 12:28 AM
I wish I could come here with an answer but I really have no idea. You're stam / avoidance is fine for 10 man ToC, maybe it's a bug? Not sure, but as long as you're watching your Impale stacks and not taunting too soon everything should be fine. Maybe try using World of Logs to get a better understanding of what happens to you during the fight?

Also, recount / eavesdrop are 2 addons that are GREATLY helpful in trying to determine just what in the heck just killed you. In fact, eavesdrop is possibly my favorite mod.

Xianth
11-20-2009, 01:27 AM
Your gear is more than ample for the fight, but 3 melee hits and no heal = healer problem. You have plenty of expertise so it can't be a series of unlucky parry gibs either, not if it was happening often.

Also you don't need to take the 3rd stack, you can taunt when the other tank gets 2 and yours will wear off before the next impale comes. But that's just as a side point, you should be more than able to tank it so your healers need to sort out what they are doing.

luv2tank
11-20-2009, 01:38 AM
healer issue. I tanked toc reg on my alt when he was just above 28khealth and much less avoidance than you. Get some better healers. 3 impales these days on regular is kind of a joke now too. But in 10reg, you can switch every 2 and the stacks will be off by the time you taunt if you want to play it safe.

Glittersmith
11-20-2009, 02:35 AM
You have plenty of expertise so it can't be a series of unlucky parry gibs either, not if it was happening often.

Just a note is that Gormok has his parry haste flag off so he can't benefit from parrys anyway.

And to op, you should try to keep him disarmed as much as possible to reduce his damage. But if you take three melee attacks in a row without heals its certainly a healer problem. Make sure its properly announced that you are infact the one tanking now so that healers switch to you.

Khilbron
11-20-2009, 03:30 AM
Its wise to disarm him as much as possible, While this does reduce damage you still run the risk of getting insta-gibbed like you explained. What you should do is each time you are taunting the boss off of the offtank, disarm him. This will allow you to safely control the boss and allow healers to adjust to the new tank. Please also note, you can only disarm him on normal mode, he is not able to be disarmed in ToGC.

Daishan12
11-20-2009, 03:30 AM
I agree with the posters above, it does seem to be a healer problem. One thing that may help the healers out though is increasing your physical effective heath. Best ways to do this are to spend your next set of emblems of triumph on the ring (clutch of fortitude) as it has a nice chunk of stam and a minor armor boost. Other ways would be 225 armor ench on cloak and armor ench on gloves (from a leatherworker).

I quite like the armor trinket from emblems as well (only really for this fight and MTing anub though).

Haven't done too much research into available 10 man legs....but there may be better options that the high block legs from badges. Hope these help out, but like I said with your gear/set up you should be finers! It's primarily a healer issue.

vine
11-20-2009, 05:26 AM
Swap on 2 stacks, and as mentioned get more armour. Gomok's impale is physical so armour really makes a difference. Replace your cloak and glove enchant with armour, get Glyph of the Indomitable, grab the triumph ring, and replace your expertise enchant/gems with straight up stam to even it out. I run with about 33kk armour on this fight and the damage mitigation is simply amazing. +Armour is the new black.

Fayre
11-20-2009, 07:49 AM
I suggest that perhaps the healers are focussed on the other tank and don't notice the swap - a quick 'taunting in 3s' or 'taunting NOW' type affair might help.

Khue
11-20-2009, 07:55 AM
Without a time stamped combat log of the deaths you guys had, it's hard to make a guess on who is at fault if anyone. RNG is heavily stacked against tanks on this fight and there could be any perfect storm of events that could happen to "one shot" a tank. Impale ticks plus landing an impale, plus a massive crash, on top of a regular melee hit is a definite possibility.

That being said, what is your order of operations on cds, both internal and external?

MellvarTank
11-20-2009, 08:07 AM
I see one of two problems: 1) The healers don't notice the switch and don't switch heals to you. 2) You aren't using your cooldowns to mitigate Gormok's melee hits.

Usually you'll want to keep demo shout up, but on top of that you have to use your shield block, shield wall, and disarms to mitigate his physical damage so most of your damage is the impale tick. Provided you are doing this, then you need to call out so your healers know.

Bashal
11-20-2009, 08:08 AM
I suggest that perhaps the healers are focussed on the other tank and don't notice the swap - a quick 'taunting in 3s' or 'taunting NOW' type affair might help.


This and a couple other comments touch on the issue I think is going on. By electing to take 3 impales, the amount of damage per tick that the tank is taking is enough to distract more than one healer. They were likely all focused on the tank you just took aggro from because of the amount of impale damage he was still taking, and neglected you.

Make sure that:

(1) you announce when you are passing aggro, so the healers know in advance.

(2) swap at 2 stacks. There's really no need to take 3. The damage per tick will be less, and therefore less of a worry to the healers.

(3) At least one healer is assigned to each tank as their primary focus. This becomes more relevant when the worms come out, and the tanks can wind up far enough apart that healers will need to choose who to be in range of, anyway.

Conreeaght
11-20-2009, 08:30 AM
Beating a dead horse that it is a healer issue, but it is. I will try to list what YOU can do to help, however. Let's start with my experience healing:

Playing a healer, there are subtle differences between tanks when tankhealing.
- Paladins (due to holy shield and damage redux talents) usually rachet down in health at a regular and small pace (small being relative.) In which case, I bring them back to full and resume my business. Druids have this same sort of reaction.

- Warriors go ka-chunk. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. (Sometimes not at all for a very long time.) DKs do as well. Sometimes this requires preemptive healing, and a bit of babysitting (more for the dks, cause I play a warrior, and we're awsome).

In which case I can 'assume' that within so many seconds you went from full hp to dead, but without proper death analysis, I can't make that determination. (meanwhile the paladin will sit at 60-ish% for long enough to get a heal)

In point form, my suggestions:

- 2 stack swap. If you have a 3 situation, use disarm to reduce damage. (it shouldn't happen, but taunts get 'funny' for some)

- Hit Shield Block right before you pick up gormok. It'll ease transition and do your best to prevent a gib while they're topping off the other tank. Once the healers get the rhythm, SB is more regularly used right after you get 2 stacks.

- Make sure you're the tank that gets earth shield (if your healer is a resto shammy) simply because it smooths out your damage curve to that similar of the pally.

- Don't be afraid to blow cooldowns early, most will be up for icehowl.

Lanore
11-20-2009, 09:16 AM
This and a couple other comments touch on the issue I think is going on. By electing to take 3 impales, the amount of damage per tick that the tank is taking is enough to distract more than one healer. They were likely all focused on the tank you just took aggro from because of the amount of impale damage he was still taking, and neglected you.

Make sure that:

(1) you announce when you are passing aggro, so the healers know in advance.

(2) swap at 2 stacks. There's really no need to take 3. The damage per tick will be less, and therefore less of a worry to the healers.

(3) At least one healer is assigned to each tank as their primary focus. This becomes more relevant when the worms come out, and the tanks can wind up far enough apart that healers will need to choose who to be in range of, anyway.

This.

I heal in our group. If you do these things and you still die, then you problem is your healers.

Kuraudo
11-20-2009, 11:57 AM
Thank you for all the excellent advice thus far; all the advice has been extremely helpful. For example, I was unaware that Gormok could be disarmed at all, I suppose I should be checking for disarmable on new encounters more often.



That being said, what is your order of operations on cds, both internal and external?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by external, but I learned early on into this encounter that waiting for an "Oh noes!" moment to pop Shield Wall wasn't helping anyone. I've been popping Shield Wall first after a taunt, followed by Last Stand at the next taunt once two stacks of impale have been applied. Is that the best course of action?

Shield Block is being popped whenever it's off cd and I'm about to taunt. I haven't disarmed yet, but I will most certainly be doing this in the future as I'm sure it will be a vast help.

At any rate, the most important bit of advice I need still looms: what do I tell my guild? I've never had the embarrassment of sitting in a deep breath or a flame cloud, so this is definitely crushing and the cries of "**** warriors suck, reroll paladin or gtfo" (paraphrased) are deafening even if it's only in jest (I hope).

After all, the paladin did take the rest of the encounter plus both worms, not to mention almost downing icehowl.

What do I say?

Synapse
11-20-2009, 12:00 PM
It may be that your healers just aren't reacting to your damage intake fast enough. Were you dieing only after you taunted him? And if you started tanking, did the pally's Ardent Defender proc?

I'm trusting what people say here that your gear is fine enough: try announcing in vent 2 or 3 seconds early, that you'll taunt.
Make sure your healers don't hate you either. If hearing a tank say "heal me" bothers me in vent(i'm a tank), I wonder what a healer will feel like.

Mr.Winkle
11-20-2009, 12:14 PM
I'd suggest definitely swapping on 2 stacks, 3 stacks and a melee hit is ridiculous amounts of damage.

Also when you say you took 3 melee attacks without a heal did you check the time stamps, gormok can melee and impale you at exactly the same time and it amounts to considerable damage.

Finally your healers should be pre-healing both tanks, there should be continuous hots, shields, and big heals hitting both tanks for the duration of gormok.

Kuraudo
11-20-2009, 12:41 PM
Make sure your healers don't hate you either. If hearing a tank say "heal me" bothers me in vent(i'm a tank), I wonder what a healer will feel like.

This is what I'm trying to avoid. The frustration was leveled squarely on my head; all I'm announcing in vent is that I'm taunting Gormok.


I'd suggest definitely swapping on 2 stacks, 3 stacks and a melee hit is ridiculous amounts of damage.

Yes, I am definitely going to employ this strategy on tonight's attempt.


Also when you say you took 3 melee attacks without a heal did you check the time stamps, gormok can melee and impale you at exactly the same time and it amounts to considerable damage.

I was keeping a close watch on my health bar and it appeared almost instantaneous to me, so I'm going to believe my healer's complaint that there was nothing he could do. (I refuse to take his "reroll pally" advice, however) I do use eavesdrop, but I was so frustrated that I completely forgot to check the time stamps.


Finally your healers should be pre-healing both tanks, there should be continuous hots, shields, and big heals hitting both tanks for the duration of gormok.

How can I communicate this to my healers diplomatically? They're already talking about switching me to arms dps despite all the gear I've accumulated. I would like to add, I never had a problem before this while I was gearing: XT was completely well in hand when I had far lesser gear.

Bashal
11-20-2009, 12:49 PM
...They're already talking about switching me to arms dps despite all the gear I've accumulated. I would like to add, I never had a problem before this while I was gearing: XT was completely well in hand when I had far lesser gear.

Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Tell them many, many many guilds use warrior tanks in that encounter and it works out just fine.

Tell them because the impales will be continuously causing damage on both tanks, that the healers need to be mindful of this and make sure constant damage is countered with...um...constant healing?

klor
11-20-2009, 12:51 PM
You could also up your own EH alot by losing some of those hit gems.. I know it doesnt seem like much.. but you're about 45 hit over the cap (the cap is 263 for tanks) so you could easily snag about 2K unbuffed hp by replacing gems/enchants (the expertise on bracers isnt really important and you'd gain far more by placing an enchant like 40stam on it over the 15 expertise. Like I said, It may not seem like much.. but having the small bit bigger HP Pool to survive these moments help. Also, like others have said, swapping at 2 stacks, plus pre-emptively using CDs is your best bet. Don't be afraid to ask healers for external CDs especially as the fight progresses.

Fledern
11-20-2009, 04:20 PM
If your healers are talking about switching you, they're being lazy. Are you sure your pally OT isnt surviving because of Ardent Defender? Substituting AD instead of good healing practices isnt a good idea :P

I'm guessing the "instagib" is actually an impale attack, a melee hit and an impale tick all landing in the space of 0.5 secs. It happens a lot.

Announcing at least 3 secs before taunting will help greatly. It'll give your healers a chance to finish whatever they're casting then switch to you comfortably.

One question: Does your pally tank continue hitting the boss after you taunt or does he stop? Reason i ask is, aggro can be twitchy at tank switches and if your OT isnt hitting the boss to be on the safe side, his vindication debuff will be running out just about as when you take a new impale. Since vindication overwrites your demo shout, unless you're very careful about that debuff, you'll get increased damage on you.

otherwise yes, your gear loots good enough and yes worms can be 1-tanked. In fact, you can opt to tank the mobile worm and let the fixed worm do its thing without a tank. We did that once on heroic when i died. As for your gear, as said, it's ok but you might want to take a closer look at your armor - it's a little on the low side methinks.

giant
11-21-2009, 12:16 AM
If I were you, I would take a good hard look at those logs each time you die and note heals and the timing of cooldowns used by you (internal) and healers (external). I would then take your findings to the leadership and show the real story, whatever it may be.

Like everyone else here I would suspect it is a healing issue. You two have similar gear and the healers should be able to keep both of you alive, especially if he can eat 6 impales. You can tweak what you want to help your healers, but that should not matter as much on normal. It almost sounds like they have a grudge against you, but I would hate to think that.

Hard to say for sure what is going on without combat logs though :(

Kuraudo
11-21-2009, 10:56 AM
Thanks for all the excellent advice. Every single post was packed with information. I will re-gem for stam immediately and try my best to convince the healers that constant healing and pre-healing is the way to go.

Kuraudo
11-21-2009, 09:09 PM
If your healers are talking about switching you, they're being lazy. Are you sure your pally OT isnt surviving because of Ardent Defender? Substituting AD instead of good healing practices isnt a good idea :P

The debuff from AD was always on, so I assume they healers abused it. None the less, the fact remains that his AD made life easier for them when compared to my shield wall & last stand/regen.


One question: Does your pally tank continue hitting the boss after you taunt or does he stop? Reason i ask is, aggro can be twitchy at tank switches and if your OT isnt hitting the boss to be on the safe side, his vindication debuff will be running out just about as when you take a new impale. Since vindication overwrites your demo shout, unless you're very careful about that debuff, you'll get increased damage on you.


Vindication is always up; there are no problems from threat since that fight seems to allow me to pull a constant 7 to 8k with 5k on dips and 9 to 10k on crests.


otherwise yes, your gear loots good enough and yes worms can be 1-tanked. In fact, you can opt to tank the mobile worm and let the fixed worm do its thing without a tank. We did that once on heroic when i died. As for your gear, as said, it's ok but you might want to take a closer look at your armor - it's a little on the low side methinks.

Armor is the area I should work on most it seems. I'll be hunting for appropriate upgrades with that in mind.


If I were you, I would take a good hard look at those logs each time you die and note heals and the timing of cooldowns used by you (internal) and healers (external). I would then take your findings to the leadership and show the real story, whatever it may be.

I will start using one of the external log programs; eavesdrop is nice but it doesn't show the whole story. Thanks!

Ulosthegame
11-21-2009, 09:42 PM
Stop socketing for hit and expertise. You don't need them. at all.
I've never had problems on NRB, but, make sure you're taunting 4 secs BEFORE your impale runs out. and that the MT is always taunting back when he has 4 secs remaining, not when the OT takes 3 stacks. with a pally, have him Div sac maybe? and make sure you get those impales knocked off when the worms come out ( Hand of Protection?).

Other than this, you really could use some more upgrades, and some of your enchanting is off.
for shoulders: pick up the 30 stam /15 resil enchant for 10k honor.
for bracers: pick up the 40 stam one
for gloves: Heavy borean armor kit(18 stam)
for boots: 22 stam

the 225 armor to cape doesn't hurt either.

You really want to maximize your EH for fights like this, and sadly, avoidance and hit/exp don't help that.

Kuraudo
12-03-2009, 10:27 AM
I thought it would be useful to any who might be able to glean information from this thread that I took all of the advice (I can't think of any I did not take) and Goremok was tanked without incident multiple times hence.

I believe switching at 2 impales whenever possible was the key to my survival, but the increased healthpool I gained from dropping the expertise/hit and switching to straight +stam doubtlessly made life easier for the healers. Also, disarming Goremok decreases his hits by a considerable amount.

I also gained an extremely competent disc priest; every base covered haha.

Thanks for the wonderful advice from all.