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Squirrelnut
11-18-2009, 09:23 AM
Hello everyone, I am a Warrior to the bone so I am afraid I know very little about Prot Paladins and their mechanics. We have recently had a slew of new people join our guild one of which is a Prot Pally and I was hoping to get input from the knowledge base here regarding any suggestions for him.

His armory: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Vykodin)

WoL log from normal 25m ToC last night: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2ik096m66rdteom1/details/5/)

My impressions:


He obviously has some ilvl 226 gear that needs to be replaced (and a cloak that makes puppies cry)
Using the Onyxia trinket? I know for Prot Warriors that is a poor choice, is it better for Prot Pallys or do you think there are better options for him?
He seemed to hold threat fairly well but as a Pally that should be cake
Basic Stats:

36774 hp (seems low compared to my Prot Warrior unbuffed 42k+ hp)
26543 armor
564 defense
26.86% dodge
20.75% parry
26 expertise
78 hit (glyphed for Pally version of taunt hopefully?)



Any suggestions as far as rotation, gear, spec, etc would be greatly appreciated. As far as I can tell he seems to have things enchanted/gemmed correctly so hopefully it is just gear upgrades that he needs.

EDIT: I am still a bit inexperienced with using WoL to review logs, is there a good view to see threat information from tanks?

Ironminded
11-18-2009, 09:49 AM
Gear;
He can drop the def. enchants from his cloak and shield and toss armor to cloak and block rating to shield up. The BR to shield will make him better at tanking Anub's adds, which is what I'm supposing you will be having him doing.

He can find a different trinket over Ony's blood, and you should be able to farm up something better for him over Black Heart. Neither of which is horrible, but there are better trinks out there. If he is tanking adds on Anub than the block trink out of HVH might actually be good, and the stam trinks out of TOTC and ULD would be good for his EH health, as would the armor trink from badges.

Hit Rating; his hit seems wicked low. If his threat is good and your dps isn't having to hold back then I guess don't worry about it, but only 78 hit rating seems really low to me and I would be scared tanking on my pali with hit rating that low.

Spec;
He can drop a point out of Imp. Judgements as the standard 969 rotation only requires one point there. That point can go either to conviction or seals of the pure. In fact he should also drop the points out of Pursuit of Justice and drop those over into Seals of the Pure as well, assuming he is using Tuskers on boots, though currently he has 22 stam there instead.

His current spec looks like one I used to roll with in Heroics and Naxx, it is great for threat on short bursty fights with the increased crit it affords the tanking pali, but I think moving some of those points over to Seals of the Pure will give him more dps and threat in a longer fight with the increased damage to SOV.

He could, if he wants, probably move a point out of Spiritual Attun. and into touched by the light. Tanking the raid content with heals and DP and BoSanc he shouldn't need the mana returned by 2/2 of Spiritual attun.

The other place he might consider moving some points to, and only if the raid needs this, is into Divine Sac and Divine Guard. That would give you another raid damage reduction, though it would be on a tank so take that for what it is ...


Take this suggestion for what it is worth. His gear looks pretty solid, the only things that might be an optimization issue would be getting rid of the def. enchants for more emphasis on EH and moving the unneeded points out of Spiritual attun. and Im. Judgments to somewhere they will do more good, such as Seals of the Pure.

Synapse
11-18-2009, 10:08 AM
Gear;
He can drop the def. enchants from his cloak and shield and toss armor to cloak and block rating to shield up. The BR to shield will make him better at tanking Anub's adds, which is what I'm supposing you will be having him doing.

Mind you that these aren't superpowered overall, so the only point to br to shield is for anub adds.


He can find a different trinket over Ony's blood, and you should be able to farm up something better for him over Black Heart. Neither of which is horrible, but there are better trinks out there. If he is tanking adds on Anub than the block trink out of HVH might actually be good, and the stam trinks out of TOTC and ULD would be good for his EH health, as would the armor trink from badges.

This is also obscure. Ony blood is an excellent avoidance trinket, so when he wants avoidance there's nothing wrong with it.


Hit Rating; his hit seems wicked low. If his threat is good and your dps isn't having to hold back then I guess don't worry about it, but only 78 hit rating seems really low to me and I would be scared tanking on my pali with hit rating that low.

Spec;
He can drop a point out of Imp. Judgements as the standard 969 rotation only requires one point there. That point can go either to conviction or seals of the pure. In fact he should also drop the points out of Pursuit of Justice and drop those over into Seals of the Pure as well, assuming he is using Tuskers on boots, though currently he has 22 stam there instead.

Pursuit of Justice beats Tuskarr. It's a talent very well spent if you aren't crying for more threat(paladins have 3~ points in each three free for fluff).


His current spec looks like one I used to roll with in Heroics and Naxx, it is great for threat on short bursty fights with the increased crit it affords the tanking pali, but I think moving some of those points over to Seals of the Pure will give him more dps and threat in a longer fight with the increased damage to SOV.

for ToC(and the marjotiy of the game anyway), there are better alternatives to Seals of the pure, like Crusade.


He could, if he wants, probably move a point out of Spiritual Attun. and into touched by the light. Tanking the raid content with heals and DP and BoSanc he shouldn't need the mana returned by 2/2 of Spiritual attun.

Touched by the light is big in many ways, including DP uptime and the fact that 1/2 SA is good enough for anything but Vezax. This talent is also why the glyph of divine plea is so good.


The other place he might consider moving some points to, and only if the raid needs this, is into Divine Sac and Divine Guard. That would give you another raid damage reduction, though it would be on a tank so take that for what it is ...

Little use while the tank is taking damage. For ToC, that can be an add tank(not in ToGC tho), mostly, at least in ToC, holy paladins do the bubbleraid trick.



Take this suggestion for what it is worth. His gear looks pretty solid, the only things that might be an optimization issue would be getting rid of the def. enchants for more emphasis on EH and moving the unneeded points out of Spiritual attun. and Im. Judgments to somewhere they will do more good, such as Seals of the Pure.
I can't see from here what the guy is using, so i'm just basing myself on what's been said in here so far. He should, of course, swap out the ony trinket for an EH trinket if the fight ignores avoidance, and he's hopefully doing a good 969, since you said his threat is good.

Squirrelnut
11-18-2009, 10:15 AM
Thanks for the input:


Switch def enchants - will definitely point that out to him
Trinkets - we have TERRRRIBLE luck with Juggernaut trink drops (I been waiting like 3 months as the guild MT lol). We rarely run Ulduar any more so have limited Heart of Iron drop opportunity do you think he would be better off with the armor vendor trink > his ony trink?
Hit - there is virtually no hit on the new ToC gear and as a Prot Warrior I couldn't care less since I simply glyph for taunt. Is it similar for Prot Pallys or is hit more important due to more spell use?
Talents - i'll pass the suggestions along, I know nothing of pally talents :)

Synapse
11-18-2009, 10:23 AM
Like I said...his ony trinket is excellent for as long as you want an avoidance trinket. It does squat for EH (the only places where I swap my ony trinket out for a stam/armor trinket are gormok and anub tanking, where avoidance is literally too little useful)

On low hit: A hit weapon enchant isn't bad, nor are some +hit alternatives. ToC has a couple, including the swordbreakers. Since we have 2 taunts, glyphing taunt isn't really a biggie unless we're at 0 hit.

Thegreatiam
11-18-2009, 10:27 AM
*DISCLAIMER* this is just an opinion =) I think I'm right but I'm not always
Gear is fine, but I count two improper enchants and one arguable enchant.

Gloves - Armsman all the way, I don't see a valid reason for 18 stam
Chest - +10 stats provides a negligible threat/avoidance boost, 275HP is better.
Shield - With such a high level of defense rating, titanium plating can be applied to the shield and you don't lose much. The defense is still good, but it's worth looking into more.
Cloak - Should be fine but armor/agility are other options once stam/avoidance aren't an issue.
----------------
His spec could use some fine-tuning, but doesn't look bad.
2/2 Improved Judgement is a waste of a point, 1/2 is sufficient for the rotation needed. Put the point into Benediction or imp Might (You can't go out of tree for this as you need the point in ret to reach other talents)
2/2 Spiritual Attunement isn't needed for ToC content, 1/2 is again sufficient. Put the point into Touched by the Light (I think Synapse was confusing this with Guarded by the Light).
Would gain more benefit from putting 2/2 Vindication into Conviction
Would gain more benefit from putting 2/2 Judgements of the Just into Reckoning
----------------
His rotation should be the standard 96969 rotation
9 sec spells - holy shield, consecration, judgement
6 sec spells - shield of righteousness, hammer of the righteous

Using JoL

/castsequence reset=6 Holy Shield,Shield of Righteousness,Judgement of Light,Hammer of the Righteous,Consecration,Shield of Righteousness,Holy Shield,Hammer of the Righteous,Judgement of Light,Shield of Righteousness,Consecration,Hammer of the RighteousUsing JoW

/castsequence reset=6 Holy Shield,Shield of Righteousness,Judgement of Wisdom,Hammer of the Righteous,Consecration,Shield of Righteousness,Holy Shield,Hammer of the Righteous,Judgement of Wisdom,Shield of Righteousness,Consecration,Hammer of the RighteousMy favorite cheater macro, adapted for each judgement =) I came up with this on my own but it's all from other general knowledge...credit goes to all the 969 guides out there and cogwheel's macro guide.

Synapse
11-18-2009, 10:33 AM
*DISCLAIMER* this is just an opinion =) I think I'm right but I'm not always
Gear is fine, but I count two improper enchants and one arguable enchant.

Gloves - Armsman all the way, I don't see a valid reason for 18 stam
Chest - +10 stats provides a negligible threat/avoidance boost, 275HP is better.
Shield - With such a high level of defense rating, titanium plating can be applied to the shield and you don't lose much. The defense is still good, but it's worth looking into more.
----------------
His spec could use some fine-tuning, but doesn't look bad.
2/2 Improved Judgement is a waste of a point, 1/2 is sufficient for the rotation needed. Put the point into Benediction or imp Might
2/2 Spiritual Attunement isn't needed for ToC content, 1/2 is again sufficient. Put the point into Touched by the Light
Would gain more benefit from putting 2/2 Vindication into Conviction
Would gain more benefit from putting 2/2 Judgements of the Just into Reckoning
----------------
His rotation should be the standard 96969 rotation
9 sec spells - holy shield, consecration, judgement
6 sec spells - shield of righteousness, hammer of the righteous

Using JoL
Using JoW
My favorite cheater macros =)

You commit a few fatal mistakes, sir.
1) Vindication is our "demoralizing spank". We can keep it better than anyone as tankadins
2) Judgments of the Just is our 20% slow. We do not run without those.
3) For ToC, armsman's parry is feeble(see my comments on avoidance trinkets) and the threat is unnecessary.

Thegreatiam
11-18-2009, 10:51 AM
You commit a few fatal mistakes, sir.
1) Vindication is our "demoralizing spank". We can keep it better than anyone as tankadins
2) Judgments of the Just is our 20% slow. We do not run without those.
3) For ToC, armsman's parry is feeble(see my comments on avoidance trinkets) and the threat is unnecessary.

I usually raid with demo roar/shout covered, but point taken.
JotJ's attack speed reduc applies to bosses?
I suppose that's true, only about .20% parry and 2 TPS per 100, so about 140-180 TPS increase roughly...I'm on a long stretch of no sleep here so excuse me for ballparking the numbers. I've just been doing it the standard way for a while and kinda assumed someone else had done the math and it worked :P

Synapse
11-18-2009, 10:54 AM
Yes, it applies to bosses. All bosses are in fact balanced around the fact all tanks have such a debuff.
(and, for the magi's happiness, Torment the Weak triggers from any tank swing slower)

Squirrelnut
11-18-2009, 10:56 AM
Can I get some talent calculator links of example builds that people think would work well for end-game Heroic 25m ToC Prot Pallys? There have been some nice suggestions with arguments for and against talent choices but since I have very little personal experience it would be nice to see some actual examples of a full build that end-game Prot Pallys use.

Ironminded
11-18-2009, 10:57 AM
Syn-
I agree with all of your comments about my comments, but Squirrelnut was looking for some suggestions so ...

[additionally, I made a particular assumption that may not be valid; that this player and the guild is particularly concerned with tanking Anub's adds, not that this encounter/job is the only concern, but is the one of greatest concern. This assumption may not be valid, or I may have over-valued it in my consideration, if so I apologize.]

Enchants; The BR enchant isn't super-powerful, and IS mostly just useful for Anub's adds. However, I would assume that will be the primary concern and a large purpose for this particular player's recruitment. It is definitely a 'your-milage-may-vary' type situation, but could be helpful if Anub-add-tanking is a concern. If add tanking on that particular fight isn't really a concern, than don't worry about it.

As far as the trinket goes; Ony's is decent, I was just pointing out that there might be better out there, particularly for Anub. In looking over some of the BIS lists, particularly for that fight, the HVH block trinket comes out to have a very high value as do some of the dodge trinks that might be easy for them to get and provide slightly more avoidance over the Ony trink. The Ony-trinket is good, to be sure, but there may be easily attainable items that are slightly better. Whether or not getting them is worth it is only something Squirrelnut's guild and the individual player can judge - not I.

Spec;
I understand that as Pali's we have free points, but again this was a post looking for some suggestions and that is what I gave. While Pursuit is a decent talent, and doesn't stack with Tuskarrs and allows you to toss 22 stam on boots rather than the aforementioned, I just thought there might be better places to spend those points.

While Crusade beats Seals, he already has crusade so that was a non-issue. I wasn't advocating ditching Crusade for Seals, rather that the points in Pursuit could go to Seals, or somewhere else. I didn't mean to sound like I was advocating Seals>all, and if that is the way I came off I apologize.

I guess maybe I just value the points that are being spent in Pursuit in such a way as I would spend them elsewhere. This is more of a personal preference thing, at least I think, but again, it was merely a suggestion.

I'm unsure what your comment about Touched-by-the-light was aimed at. I think you were agreeing with me :) so I will just roll with that. If you can't see his armory, he currently has 2/2 spiritual attunement and only 2/3 touched by the light, I feel this is a mistake, but hey - he is tanking harder content than I so take that for what it is worth.

Thegreatiam
11-18-2009, 10:59 AM
I took a break from theorycrafting with wrath so some of this stuff is making me go "wait, this works?!?!" I appreciate the corrections & criticism =)

Vindication/JotJ in a 25-man raid may be wasted and you may want to coordinate that with other classes/tanks for an optimal min-max.

Synapse
11-18-2009, 11:06 AM
Our specs hardly change from the survivability side, and on the threat side...well, if he has crusade, and a proper prot tree, he can't take points out of PoJ into seals =P They'd more likely go into conviction.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0uGusIufdxfMobc) is a standard crusade spec with Reckoning and PoJ(both are fillers, PoJ is usually alternated with Conviction, but I like the speed more than 2% crit)

Thegreatiam
11-18-2009, 11:07 AM
While Crusade beats Seals, he already has crusade so that was a non-issue. I wasn't advocating ditching Crusade for Seals, rather that the points in Pursuit could go to Seals, or somewhere else. I didn't mean to sound like I was advocating Seals>all, and if that is the way I came off I apologize.

He can't, no points left to go further in tiers.

Also, PoJ is a lifesaver...literally...Icehowl AHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ironminded
11-18-2009, 11:09 AM
He can't, no points left to go further in tiers.

Also, PoJ is a lifesaver...literally...Icehowl AHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah, your right. My bad.

Squirrelnut
11-18-2009, 11:12 AM
So...... your suggested spec is identical to what he already has other then switching 1 point from Spiritual Attunement over into Touched by the Light. Is that correct?

EDIT: how are his glyphs?

Thegreatiam
11-18-2009, 11:12 AM
np, i'm surprised i didn't make the same mistake with how little sleep I've had. FML.

edit:
I'd try this if you can count on thunderclap and demo roar/shout being on the boss already.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0ugusIufzts0hbc) If not, change to:
2/2 vindication 1/2 conviction (ret tree) for demo roar
3/5 reckoning 2/2 judgements of the just (prot tree) for thunderclap

Synapse
11-18-2009, 11:14 AM
Like I said, I can't tell his armory from here, but if he's this close, his spec is pretty fine. He really can't afford 2/3 Touched, so he's gotta fix that. 1/2 Spiritual Attunement is the obvious choice.


The only glyph we consider mandatory as in "zomg wtf get it NAO!" is Divine Plea. It's almost free 3% DR at all times.
Other good glyphs are Vengeance(+10 expertise while SoV is up), and the minor glyphs for Lay on Hands(5 minutes shorter cd) and Sense Undead(1% more damage to undead while undead tracking is active).

Thegreatiam
11-18-2009, 11:15 AM
He's glyphed correctly for his hit, but the 10% judgement glyph adds more threat if that's ever an issue and would replace the taunt glyph.

Squirrelnut
11-18-2009, 11:26 AM
Great, thanks for all the help. I think I have enough to make a suggestion thread for him :D

Thegreatiam
11-18-2009, 11:29 AM
Good luck! *passes out at keyboard*

Synapse
11-18-2009, 05:05 PM
Finally looking at his armory, indeed the only things not really "neatly fit" in his character are the spec change we've talked about, and the chest enchant... 10 stats doesn't do anything to us tankadins: It's either +health or + defense.
The health gap closes by about 800 hp when you fully buff a warrior and a tankadin with less unbuffed health than said warrior, btw.


Oh, and if he's convinced into maximizing his tanky power, switch herbalism to jewelcrafting.

Squirrelnut
11-18-2009, 05:22 PM
Regarding the spec change he disagreed by saying:
As per the spec change, Maxing out my Spir. Attun. helps much more in 10mans and heroics with mana return since I do not take as much damage. Maxing out TbtL only allows for extra healing in a very minimul amount which shouldn't be needed in the raid environment we're in. Tanks should always be above 15% in my experience and hovering around 30% on norm. Never below. If it becomes needed and obvious that uor healers will require that extra little bit of help, I will certainly respec, but in my experience, and back when I used 3/3 in the talent, it doesn't help. If you're that low, you're gonna die.

Only time I could see that being useful is on Anub HM, and that i won't be MTing, just OTing I'd imagine in an UH set with no stam buffs. The extra healing would only hurt there.

Any thoughts on that?

Synapse
11-18-2009, 05:26 PM
There's math in maintankadin to prove this: With 1/2 spiritual attunement, divine plea up and blessing of sanctuary, An incoming dps of 1000 keeps our mana up indefinitely for the 969, with spare mana.


1000 incoming dps would be the boss hitting for 5000 damage per swing(at 60% avoidance), which is a low level even for 10m standards. Heroics are the only place where he might see a problem, and only if he is single-target tanking(sanctuary scales monstrously with extra targets. It's obscene), and even then My personal experience with it shows it to hardly being an issue. I may burn... one mana potion per heroic? per two heroics?

Vezax is the only raid fight that justifies 2/2 spiritual attunement.

Also, if he had 3/3 touched by the light instead of 2/3, he'd do more threat and as such would be able to spend less mana if necessary without risking losing aggro.

Ironminded
11-18-2009, 06:34 PM
Squirrelnut-

Based on the following I think he doesn't fully understand the purpose behind TbtL;

"Maxing out TbtL only allows for extra healing"

The real use of tbtL isn't that it gives you the ability to heal, it is that some of our abilities, and Syn may be able to tell you which ones and I know they are listed on Maintankadin somewhere, scale with both str through atkpwr scaling along with scaling through Spell-power, like the spell-power provided by TbtL.

Additionally Consecrate scales at least partially through spell-power, and maxing TbtL will make his Consecrates hit harder. Now Consecrate doesn't scale very well, and doesn't make up a huge portion of our dps as tanks, but every little bit helps.

Really, the point all pali's should get from TbtL is that it increases our spell-power and that increases those abilities of ours that scale off of spell-power.

Additionally here are the scaling coefficients, at base lvl 80, for a prot pali [all credit to Maintankadin which is where I pulled this quote]

Base Spell Performance
Avenger's Shield costs 26% base (1142) and does 940 + .07SP + .07AP
Consecration costs 22% base (967) and does 113 + .04SP + .04AP per tick.
Exorcism costs 8% base (352) and does 1087 + .15SP + .15AP
Hammer of the Righteous costs 6% base (264) and does 4WDPS + .29AP
Hammer of Wrath casts 12% base (527) and does 1198 + .15SP + .15AP
Holy Shield costs 10% base (439) and does 211
Holy Wrath costs 20% base (879) and does 1142 + .07SP + .07AP
Judgement costs 5% base (220) and does 1 + .22SP + .14AP
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption costs 14% base (615) and does .078SP + .15AP per stack per tick
Shield of Righteousness costs 6% base (264) and does BV + 400

Additionally, check the following link about how to spec and TbtL;

Tankadin Talents (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/guides/advanced-training/tankadin-talents)

CatabriOnEarthen
11-20-2009, 12:23 PM
My impressions:


He obviously has some ilvl 226 gear that needs to be replaced (and a cloak that makes puppies cry)
Using the Onyxia trinket? I know for Prot Warriors that is a poor choice, is it better for Prot Pallys or do you think there are better options for him?
He seemed to hold threat fairly well but as a Pally that should be cake
Basic Stats:

36774 hp (seems low compared to my Prot Warrior unbuffed 42k+ hp)
26543 armor
564 defense
26.86% dodge
20.75% parry
26 expertise
78 hit (glyphed for Pally version of taunt hopefully?)





Um, yeah, he needs hit, and a lot of it. I realize that Nalfarion is NOT hit-capped (but pretty darned close at 257), but paladins already have an issue with taunts being resisted, as they are considered spells, not melee attacks. He does have the RD glyph, which is great, but only adds 8%, and the spell hit cap is 17%. I don't hit cap my paladin because I value my avoidance a bit more, and I'm getting the RD glyph before raid tonight, as lately we've had some threat issues.

Just taking a cursory look, he needs to drop some def enchants and go for hit where he can, and stam where he can't. (On a side note, he's stacking stam like nutcakes, so I don't think you'll get much more stam there). His avoidance (which won't help on Gormok) takes care of *most* of the imbalance between Warrior EH and Pally EH.

I personally have Blade Ward on my tanking weapon, but I have more hit from my gear than he does. It looks like he's stacked avoidance, but neglected hit. If he can't hit it....he can't put threat on it. At that low of a hit rating, his consecrates, RDs, and Hand of Reckoning all have a HUGE chance of missing. A look at a combat log for misses would help you drive that home.

His unwillingness to go for TbtL is odd...but then, we have a limited number of healers, and so any help I can give them is good for the raid. That extra 10% from a heal is the difference (in my experience as guild MT) from a full top up, to the healer having to cast another spell (and thereby not hit someone else with a heal). Also, the 3/3 is more for the threat from the Str > SP which makes our "spells" hit harder, and generate more threat. But like I said before, if he can't hit it, he won't get any threat. And he may even be seeing more than just one tick of his consecrate miss.

His glyphs are ok. Unless and until he gets his hit up, he shouldn't pull out of RD.

Thegreatiam
11-23-2009, 08:52 AM
Um, yeah, he needs hit, and a lot of it. I realize that Nalfarion is NOT hit-capped (but pretty darned close at 257), but paladins already have an issue with taunts being resisted, as they are considered spells, not melee attacks. He does have the RD glyph, which is great, but only adds 8%, and the spell hit cap is 17%. I don't hit cap my paladin because I value my avoidance a bit more, and I'm getting the RD glyph before raid tonight, as lately we've had some threat issues.

Just taking a cursory look, he needs to drop some def enchants and go for hit where he can, and stam where he can't. (On a side note, he's stacking stam like nutcakes, so I don't think you'll get much more stam there). His avoidance (which won't help on Gormok) takes care of *most* of the imbalance between Warrior EH and Pally EH.

I personally have Blade Ward on my tanking weapon, but I have more hit from my gear than he does. It looks like he's stacked avoidance, but neglected hit. If he can't hit it....he can't put threat on it. At that low of a hit rating, his consecrates, RDs, and Hand of Reckoning all have a HUGE chance of missing. A look at a combat log for misses would help you drive that home.

His unwillingness to go for TbtL is odd...but then, we have a limited number of healers, and so any help I can give them is good for the raid. That extra 10% from a heal is the difference (in my experience as guild MT) from a full top up, to the healer having to cast another spell (and thereby not hit someone else with a heal). Also, the 3/3 is more for the threat from the Str > SP which makes our "spells" hit harder, and generate more threat. But like I said before, if he can't hit it, he won't get any threat. And he may even be seeing more than just one tick of his consecrate miss.

His glyphs are ok. Unless and until he gets his hit up, he shouldn't pull out of RD.
It is my understanding that a majority of paladin spells were changed to function as melee attacks and thus use the melee hit cap. Can anybody confirm/deny this with certainty (and maybe an EJ link or something :P)

Synapse
11-23-2009, 09:05 AM
All taunts, from all classes are spells and go under the spell hit progression, including the 16% necessary to guarantee hits on bosses.
Also, we don't take Touched by the Light for the healing. We take it for the threat. We don't heal ourselves at all.

CatabriOnEarthen
11-23-2009, 12:35 PM
All taunts, from all classes are spells and go under the spell hit progression, including the 16% necessary to guarantee hits on bosses.
Also, we don't take Touched by the Light for the healing. We take it for the threat. We don't heal ourselves at all.

I have healed myself, and will continue to do so, if needed. (Loetheb comes to mind) And yes, sometimes we have subpar healers, which is why I end up healing myself.

But you are right, I take Touched for the additional threat, not heals.

Synapse
11-23-2009, 12:36 PM
Uhh... You do know that when you heal yourself you lose all your avoidance, making yourself much more likely to take more damage than if you just hand't bothered, right?

CatabriOnEarthen
11-23-2009, 12:58 PM
Uhh... You do know that when you heal yourself you lose all your avoidance, making yourself much more likely to take more damage than if you just hand't bothered, right?

Yes, but a dead tank doesn't have any avoidance at all. Mostly I LOH if I have to, but in down times, where we are waiting for a wave, I will toss myself a heal. (Loetheb hits me, but the incoming damage can't be avoided anyway).

We have a guild healer issue, and if what it takes to make an encounter possible, is to toss myself a HL, then that's what I'll do. Otherwise, it's a graveyard runback, and people yelling at each other over vent.

That being said, we run Naxx for alts and people new to raiding. Our goal is to get people used to the idea of working in a bigger team than 5 or 1. Do my alts get to go? Not often. And often, the healers are undergeared or underskilled, or heaven help us, both. But if we want these people to keep playing (and we do), then sometimes we do things we wouldn't think of doing in a progression raid. We some diamonds in the rough that we want to polish up.

Last week we took 2 trees into Naxx. We combat logged, because we were trying to come up with some solid numbers to prove to one player that he NEEDS to figure out what he's doing wrong, or he can not come on progression runs. (This is a "Ulduar25-ready" geared druid, both feral kitty and tree). His *high* dps is 1.5k. He was out healed by the tree in blues and greens on Loetheb. We wiped twice, and as it was getting late, I wanted to finish the damn wing and get it over with. And prove a point. During the windows, I proceeded to heal myself on the 3rd attempt. At one point I had like 3k health left, and popped LoH. I beat the bad druid in healing done, for the attempt. Yes, we finished the wing. Yes, I called it there. (It was late, and a weeknight). Would I have out healed him w/o LoH? No, but we'd have wiped as well. The undergeared for HEROICS tree did over 50% of the healing on the fight. If I hadn't been healing myself, the good healer would have been too far behind again, and the end result would have been calling the raid w/ Loetheb still alive.

I would NEVER heal myself during our progression runs, and I don't take healers that can't cut the mustard either. We can't carry bad players (whether gear or skill) thru our progression, which may not be as progressed as others, but it's where WE are at.

Synapse
11-23-2009, 12:59 PM
Those are very, very specific situations there, you want to make sure they're mentioned because otherwise you WILL mislead newbies.

Also, LoH doesn't count: It's instant and it doesn't care about spell power.