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anonymousRex
11-18-2009, 08:22 AM
A few days ago I watched an interesting event occur and I was hoping to figure out the general consensus on whom was at fault.

During a raid of Tocr25 a debate occurred over whom should be able to roll on the different types of loot. While I suppose you could call the raid a PUG. It was mostly members of two different guilds, however, most, if not all, of the members had run with the host guild before.

The run goes well and we down the beasts after a few tries, mainly due to Icehowl trampling players, and a mail caster belt drops. Out of the raid there are only two players that want it: a Holy Paladin and a Shaman. The paladin wins the roll but, after a discussion with the Raid Leader, agrees to cede the belt to the shaman as it was more of an upgrade for him (226 vs. the paladin's 232).

The raid continues and we down Jaraxxus. A caster wrist piece drops and the paladin and a druid roll. The paladin wins again. Without any notice the raid leader gives the wrist piece to the druid even though the item was barely an upgrade (232) and for the paladin it would have been massive (213). At this point the paladin is slightly confused and asks why he was passed over after A) he had won the roll and B) by the logic of the first loot distribution he should have gotten the item due to the amount of the upgrade . This responds in an uproar from the guest guild who pronounce that the Holy paladin "needs" the armor for fights and that any Holy Paladin that doesn't use said plate is a "failadin". The paladin stayed in the raid, which I commend him for, especially as, for the rest of the night, he was heckled by the non-host guild.

In the end the paladin still received loot after a SP plate chest dropped and the other paladins passed on it after watching the beating the aforementioned holy paladin has received all night. Ironically, the item wasnt really an upgrade for him.

Now my question is: Who was in the right? Should the Paladin have rolled on non-plate gear even though stat-wise it was a major upgrade or should he had left it for the other classes even if it wasn't an upgrade for them?

Optimoos
11-18-2009, 08:32 AM
I see nothing in the Holy tree for paladins which converts Armor to Spell Power or another such beneficial mechanic (and in fact I knew no such talent existed). Thus, a paladin 'needing' plate is false. Until Bliz implements some form of armored to the teeth but for holy pallies, this argument makes no sense. It seems unreasonable that given the Shaman/Paladin discussion, the loot went to the person for whom it was the biggest upgrade, while for the Druid/Paladin, it was 'lol bad paladin wants leather.'

Upgrades are upgrades. This is why for a long time Warriors wore leather as BiS items. Especially in a pug where there is no guarantee that 'if I pass it to guildie Jimbo, the next time it drops I can have it' I would respect reasonable rolls before anything else (Warrior rolling on cloth? Unnecessary).

Just as an aside, in an Ony25 pug last week, the Polished Azuresong Mageblade dropped, a holy paladin wearing the crafted SP mace (Titansteel Defender I think?) won the roll and took the blade. Even though it had hit, all of the other stats were more than legitimate upgrades for him as a holy pally.

Espillion
11-18-2009, 08:44 AM
It's a common basis on loot council - well a fundamental fact on what it is based on.

Basically the priority of loot is based on armor type first, then what category it goes under - be it tank, healing or DPS.

What I am seeing is armor type hierachy taking place with said loot. While a good argument can be said about gear being few and far between for some classes (clothie being the worst because of the one armor profiency), the same can be said if people adopt the whole "bigger upgrades, no matter what = overall improvement for all" mindset when it comes to divvying out loot.

Yes, the days of seeing pure "Clothadins" and clown-suits are all but dead in this expansion.

In regards to your question, there's massive debate. But ultimately it should be considered on what was the bigger long-term upgrade. Your paladin healer, judging by this story, should've gotten the upgrade purely to benefit your whole raid significantly rather than just a brief upping on DPS or otherwise.

But consideration should be given for other classes as well. Clothies only can wear cloth for that reason and therefore should get priority over anyone else due to the lack of other things they can wear. Same for people lower along the armor chain line.

Bashal
11-18-2009, 08:56 AM
I consider the capability of some classes to roll on gear of "lesser" armor types (i.e. druid rolling on cloth, paladin rolling on mail or cloth) to be a "scavenger" talent; they can possibly use stuff that would otherwise get DE'd.

The notion of, for example, giving a resto shammy and a holy paladin equal footing on mail healing gear falls apart when you consider the reverse: when a plate healing belt drops, it's holy pally gear and nobody else's. The shammy can't use it.

The argument is based more on a sense of fairness than pure progression or what's BiS. I imagine if I played in a more top-end guild I'd be singing a different tune. But I don't, and the fairness concept works very well with my guildies.

Edit: And... please. What raid hasn't downed a boss and said "oh, look! Yet another piece of holy pally gear. /sigh" The paladin will get geared in plate just by virtue of being there repeatedly.

Ion
11-18-2009, 09:06 AM
Considering the Jaraxxus leather bracers at 50 spirit on them, which is a 100% worthless stat to paladins (as it is to shamans), I can't imagine it was that huge an upgrade for the paladin either...he had 213 bracers, which were presumably itemized for him and not a tree. Looking around, it was probably a relatively decent upgrade, but he probably lost a sizable chunk of a stat that actually HAS some value to him in order to take those leather bracers.

TBH, I'd probably have given them to the druid too, assuming he actually wanted them....if it was DE-or-paladin, I'd give them to the paladin.

Optimoos
11-18-2009, 09:11 AM
Considering the Jaraxxus leather bracers at 50 spirit on them

This is something I didn't consider because I'm not familiar with the gear, but yeah, useless stats on the gear makes it more of a grey area. Going back to the Azuresong Mageblade, even the hit on that can actually be justified if you say your holy pally is going to be doing judgements, but spirit is... yeah...

Insahnity
11-18-2009, 09:38 AM
Considering the Jaraxxus leather bracers at 50 spirit on them, which is a 100% worthless stat to paladins (as it is to shamans), I can't imagine it was that huge an upgrade for the paladin either...he had 213 bracers, which were presumably itemized for him and not a tree. Looking around, it was probably a relatively decent upgrade, but he probably lost a sizable chunk of a stat that actually HAS some value to him in order to take those leather bracers.

TBH, I'd probably have given them to the druid too, assuming he actually wanted them....if it was DE-or-paladin, I'd give them to the paladin.

This. If the gear has useless stats, IMO the paladin doesn't have a leg to stand on. If it was boomkin gear with sta/int/crit/SP/MP5, it becomes a bit more justifiable.

Personally, like others mentioned here, I would filter by armor types, and then open up to other classes before DE. The only real exception would be a situation where by some freak of RNG, mail and leather keep dropping instead of plate, the other people don't need huge upgrades while the pally does, I would ask the leather/plate to consider passing to the pally. This would likely not work in OP's situation due to multiple guilds involved, and their reaction to the whole situation.

vine
11-19-2009, 05:57 AM
Armour type should match class first. As a paladin I often rolled on mail gear in early progression, but with the caveat of "only if the shamans don't want it".
Leather/cloth I never roll on because it always has spirit, other players may have different gear standards.

Libicocco
11-19-2009, 07:57 AM
I prefer to stick to leather on my tree druid, more as a courtesy to the rest of my guild than because I don't like cloth. I'll accept slightly weaker gear to have fewer things sharded, until such time as all relevant clothies have said cloth. My guild's gear progression is my gear progression.

PuGs are not NECESSARILY afforded said courtesy. Some random guy in Dalaran means nothing to me, though a lot of times if I find I respect said person as a player or a nice guy I'll pass.

I would assume that if your guilds run together often enough to have a loot council governing loot decisions, that your particular situation is closer to the guild end of the spectrum than the PuG end of the spectrum.

I'd love it if Bliz actually successfully itemized gear so that the best gear for a class was actually of their main armor type. Maybe in Cataclysm.

Edit: Oh yea, try not to give spirit to classes that don't use it at all. Typically the gear effectively loses a tier, sometimes more when you waste part of its stat budget, and that can really skew discussions of who its a bigger upgrade for. And as bracers, a paladin who's really in dire need can just go have the ToC craftables made.

Xianth
11-19-2009, 08:07 AM
To be honest, there's 219 pala healing bracers that are BoEs from 10 man ulduar and they go for like a couple of hundred gold max on the AH, so if he hasnt got them then i don't really feel pity for him not getting leather bracers with spirit.

Still doesn't excuse people for being a shit to him though.

vine
11-19-2009, 08:09 AM
And as bracers, a paladin who's really in dire need can just go have the ToC craftables made.
Those Sunforged bracer's are arguably BiS anyway :)

Astemus
11-19-2009, 08:25 AM
Maybe if the leather was itemized like Shoulderpads of the Glacial Wilds - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47613) then it might be a question, but why waste itemization when someone else can fully utilize the item?

MudNova
11-19-2009, 10:16 AM
Actually as a paladin, i think its unfair if druid and pally roll and pally gets item ( i know it didnt happen that way), And i am not saying that paladins using something else than plate are failadins... and i know sometimes the cloth gear can be better than the plate gear. But lets imagine this;
The druid rolls with the paladin, the paladin gets the item.
The next boss drops a plate item with SP, then it goes to the pally by default because the druid can't use plate.
The same way Plate goes by default to paladins, Mail should go to shamans, Leather to druids and Cloth to priest.
Just because the paladin can use everything, doesnt mean he has to use everything.

But like other people said; Of course if the item is going to be de'd then give it to the paladin.

Fitzlestick
11-19-2009, 01:48 PM
Items should go to those classes the armor type is meant for.
The simple fact is that the players that want to roll on other armor types are just greedy and want more loot chances. Several items have near identical stats but for the overall item level progression in the raid, it is best to give mail to shammies before paladins. There are ofcourse considerations to be made regarding for whom the "bigger upgrade" is. A shaman that only gets a very minor upgrade from a mail item should pass it to the paladin for the good of the raid, but in normal circumstances, shammies should have priority.
Ofcourse the paladin should have priority over offspecs for example.

Same goes for casters and mp5 items. While the item (even disregarding the mp5) could be an upgrade to a dps caster, it should be given to a healer in priority. Increasing the geared "level" of the entire group should always go before increasing one particular player.

Kazeyonoma
11-19-2009, 03:23 PM
I think saying people who roll for other armor types are just greedy is a blanket statement that needs to be avoided.

Good players explore all avenues to enhance their ability to do their jobs. Healers should know whether a leather, cloth, or mail piece is an upgrade, or if there's a readily available plate piece that would be just as good or sufficient. If there isn't, it should be open game for them to take other item types. You have loot rules for a reason, to fairly balance how people get items. No where unless addendum'ed do they say you can only roll on your specific gear type, and most loot rules don't need to incorporate such rules because they balance themselves out anyways.

Just like a lot of DPS warriors were wearing leather in various tiers (especially Sunwell), optimizing dps, sometimes spans across different armor types, calling someone "greedy" because he knows what's best for him is being rude.

Destruyen
11-19-2009, 03:44 PM
i will not roll on a lower type of armor unless:
A) it is best in slot or
B) near best in slot and i wont be getting/have access to the best in slot anytime soon or
C) a really big upgrade over what i have in that current slot

players who know what stats they need and understand the itemization of what their class/spec needs is no excuse for others to say "oh they're a loot whore blah blah blah...". if blizzard wanted paladins to wear plate to heal in, then they would limit what types of armor they can wear (some mmo's do this).

i can understand the belt issue, it was a slightly better ilvl upgrade for the shaman, but depending on the stats of the pally's belt, the shaman's belt, and the belt in question, it could go either way. same with the bracers, although i think any 245 healing type bracers are better than 213 ones.

tl/dr: just because a class normally wears one type of armor, it doesn't mean that a piece of lower type of armor isn't better.

Espillion
11-19-2009, 04:16 PM
i will not roll on a lower type of armor unless:
A) it is best in slot or
B) near best in slot and i wont be getting/have access to the best in slot anytime soon or
C) a really big upgrade over what i have in that current slot

...

tl/dr: just because a class normally wears one type of armor, it doesn't mean that a piece of lower type of armor isn't better.

This statement sums up what the majority of what people should focus as the bigger picture.
Should go back to BC-days where paladins had next to nothing but to roll on cloth, leather and mail healing bits just to keep up with the throughput of the earlier bosses of Kara. It was sorely felt.

Insahnity
11-20-2009, 06:27 PM
Even if it was an upgrade, I've only taken mail on pally or cloth on druid when it was about to be sharded. No arguments then.

Baervar
11-21-2009, 01:15 AM
Don't expect people to be forthcoming with letting you have worse type of armor in PUG's. Alliance raiding is another issue - especially on progress when you may need to gear up healers and tanks as fast as possible. Otherwise, it's just gear. You'll get better in time and it will be your type of armor.

Azuae
11-22-2009, 05:36 PM
i'm looking at the BIS lists for Arms & Fury over on EJ - there are 5+ mail items in those lists, and at least 1 leather item.

Leitha
11-23-2009, 11:38 AM
I play a holy paladin.
I think he should have passed on those items.

You know, its not that hard to equip a holypaladin. There is a breastplate, legs, waist ,wrist and feet dropping in toc. All plate. A normal raid has one or two holypallies. So its just a matter of time until you get those things.
No other class can wear those items so I personally dont roll on mail or leather or even cloth if some other healer needs it.

It's hard enough to decide who gets those weapons, trinket, rings, cloaks and maybe shields.

Bashal
11-23-2009, 12:04 PM
i'm looking at the BIS lists for Arms & Fury over on EJ - there are 5+ mail items in those lists, and at least 1 leather item.

It's unfortunate that the game mechanics are such that some BIS items are not of the "correct" armor type for a class. And it's part of the reason I avoid looking at BIS lists; I have a clear idea of what kind of stats I should be looking for, but don't pour over BIS lists per se. I'm not really interested in feeling disappointed cause a rogue "took" my BIS gear for my arms warrior, or whatever.

Even in situations where, for example, a leather item is BIS for a warrior... I'd argue that it is more so BIS for a rogue or feral druid. If it's an upgrade for one of them, they should be preferred; the item was not crafted with warriors in mind, and there's plenty of plate for the warriors, even if not BIS. If nobody else can use it, and the warrior is like "omg omg that's BIS!!!!" then sure, they can have at it.