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01Bora
11-12-2009, 11:51 AM
So we are having a discussion in our guild about a couple of weapons that dropped and why a specific weapon doesn't perform like we thought it would. I am sure someone here can shed some light on it?

One of our DK's won Reclaimed Shadowstrike from Ony 10 man...

He replaced his Ironsoul with it and saw a drop in DPS by about 150...

He had an option to get Reckoning from 10 man ToC Reg.

Now Reckoning ilvl 232 "appears" to to have similar characteristics as Shadowstrike ilvl 232, but shows to perform better on paper. In an actual test his Ironsoul ilvl 219 even performed better. I know I am missing something here...how is this math working out to favor the ilvl 219 weapon? All needed weapon skills are maxed.

Thoughts?

Strit
11-12-2009, 11:55 AM
As I recall:
Shadowstrike is a polearm
Ironsoul is an axe
And Reckoning sounds like a sword or mace.

Depending on racials, his expertise may not be at the soft cap to clear dodges. I don't know the stats on each of the wepons, but if they are the same, then that's what I'd say causes the problems.

Airowird
11-12-2009, 01:21 PM
Weapon Skill?

Stompya
11-12-2009, 02:24 PM
can you please post links to the stuff you are talking about, so we can check the stats and stuff?

sorry but I dont got time to do it right now, so this is pure speculation but maybe it is related to weapon speed bonuses...

Stengel
11-12-2009, 02:32 PM
Shadowstrike is a fast weapon meant for hunters and druids who don't need slow weapon speeds to optimize their dps.

Wilhem
11-12-2009, 08:19 PM
can you please post links to the stuff you are talking about, so we can check the stats and stuff?

sorry but I dont got time to do it right now, so this is pure speculation but maybe it is related to weapon speed bonuses...

Ironsoul (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45282).
Reclaimed Shadowstrike (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49302).
Reckoning (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47737).

Weapon speed as someone mentioned before could be a factor with Reclaimed Shadowstrike, also weapon skill and racials. All mentioned before but they're the only things I could think of.

Aethelas
11-12-2009, 11:25 PM
I'm guessing the 105 strength on the Ironsoul beats out a near equal number of agility?

Synapse
11-13-2009, 03:10 AM
Make sure to take everything into account
1) Strength is a LOT of ap. Ironsoul has 210 ap from str
2) Slower weapons have higher per-hit damage, which affects every weapon-based ability(most dk abilities, save blood boil, howling blast, d&d and icy touch)
3) Agility weighs differently based on spec. Unholy disregards it in comparison to pure crit, for example.
4) Racials may apply. Swords Maces Polearms...damn o.O

The speed difference alone is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE deal.

Quendishir
11-13-2009, 03:14 AM
It sounds like if Ironsoul and Reckoning did more damage, he's human. That means he hasn't been gearing for an extra 3% Expertise and, with the polearm, is below that cap. That's one reason for the drop.

Another thing would be - as was mentioned - weapon skill. Also, enchanting.

Reckoning, BTW, is a sword.

Foolish
11-13-2009, 07:38 AM
As mentioned earlier, most DK abilities are based off of weapon damage, so ideally you want the slowest weapon possible.

Base damage ranges:
Ironsoul = 594-892
Shadowstrike = 577-866
Reckoning = 651-977

So you can see that ignoring any AP gains, the base per hit is lower on Shadowstrike than Ironsoul, so that is likely causing the lower dps (since that DK's abilities aren't hitting as hard anymore). There is less AP also (Ironsoul is 210 AP, Shadowstrike is 136), but more melee crit due to the agility.

Satorri
11-13-2009, 07:45 AM
The Str vs AP will be a big feature, but generally speaking a 20 dps increase on the weapon should outweigh the AP lost (you'd have to get 280 more AP from the Str weapon to counter that, roughly speaking).

Melee auto-swings are a big item in your dps, and as Foolish showed above, without accounting for AP the instant strike difference between the two is not big.

If he saw a big change, I'm a little confused that it is the weapon. What was the standard for comparison? Do you have logs of the same fight? I would think even 200 dps on most fights now would make for less than the typical variation fight to fight.

Today you do, say, Onyxia and get 6500 dps, then tomorrow you do it and get 6200. In that case it would more likely be a matter of aoe, whelp pulls, when you're running, etc.

So what is the basis for this comparison where you lost?