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Thundercud
11-12-2009, 11:47 AM
I was surprised that there isn't a tanking version of QD. Perhaps because of Quel-Serrar, but I must admit I'm disappointed. I'm also disappointed with the itemization of the str-based dps two-hander... Haste? Bleh.

What do you guys think?

Ion
11-12-2009, 11:50 AM
I think my ret paladin is super excited that there's a glorious 2h sword with strength, crit and haste and NO armor pen.

That's what I think.

I must admit that my warrior is sad that there is no point in completing the quest for him, however.

Thundercud
11-12-2009, 11:55 AM
You're right. I shouldn't be so selfish :)

I'm glad that there are great weapons from this chain for someone... But darn it!! I am selfish! :p

Kazeyonoma
11-12-2009, 01:17 PM
you can have Quel Derrar, i'll take Shadowmourne.

Thundercud
11-12-2009, 01:52 PM
^^ Ooh! Zing!

Well... Since I am not a regular raider... And I suck at dps... I won't be getting Shadowmourne. I do however, salute you (and your raid) for being able to dream the impossible dream.

It would appear that 1-hander tanks are not too devastated (I'm not really devastated either, although one would have been nice) about not getting a QD for that purpose.

Kazeyonoma
11-12-2009, 02:32 PM
I don't put it past my guild to farm up a Shadowmourne, we have one of the epic maces from ulduar as is and are just waiting on more shards for another. Shadowmourne unfortunately will never be mine. I'm main spec prot and only parttime raider. I'd never take it over a full timer, and a MS raider =P

Omok
11-12-2009, 03:12 PM
I think it will be quite a while before tanks ever get a legendary weapon for themselves, we are kind of a niche role in the game. Even healers usually outnumber us three to one, and they just recently got their legendary. We will have Thunderfury haunting us for quite a while, as if that helps us much now.

klor
11-12-2009, 03:14 PM
I'm glad we didn't get a quel delar.. this may mean we may get a tanking axe yet! WTB the next last laugh upgrade le sigh

Kagere
11-12-2009, 03:23 PM
Falric's Wrist-Chopper - Items - Sigrie (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50290/falrics-wrist-chopper/)

seems to be a small upgrade, available from the new 5man heroic.

Kazeyonoma
11-12-2009, 03:25 PM
seriously... axe please.

Kazeyonoma
11-12-2009, 03:27 PM
pretty steep dps downgrade though, even including the 5 expertise gain, from any of the 197 dps weapons.

keebz
11-12-2009, 03:51 PM
Well what about DK tanks and Shadowmourne? They can use it just like the idea of Thunderfury. Quel'delar looks nice though too.

Omok
11-12-2009, 04:36 PM
I would not mind a legendary trinket that gave you an effect worthy of a legendary item. As there are fewer stats on a trinket that you would have to worry about scaling, the longevity of the legendary trinket would be based on how the proc scaled. This could potentially make the legendary viable to all tank classes, and also last through more content.

Soulbound
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 80
+10% health
Equip : All attacks made against you have are reduced by 10% in effectiveness. This effect will not work in arenas.

That would be a pretty imba trinket, but you get the idea.

Thundercud
11-13-2009, 06:09 AM
^^ Wowwww!! I tink my head asplode!!!

Cool idea... and imba is an understatement. Talk about a single trinket trivializing content. :P

Omok
11-13-2009, 06:31 AM
10% is not too bad, Ancestral Fortitude does the same thing. Would not be game breaking, in my opinion.

Mert
11-13-2009, 06:51 AM
The thing is, Blizzard have said before they don't like the idea that once you get a Legendary that's it, it's your best in-slot forever and I can kind of see their point. You can solo your way to a Thunderfury these days if you're lucky with drops and if it had scaling stats it'd be the "must-do" thing for serious tanks in progression guilds. It's long, boring and grindy and would be seen as essential.

Those who got it the first time around also have no real need to get excited about Last Laugh or Sorthalis or Crusader's Glory dropping - they simply don't need an upgrade ever again.

So I'm torn - I completely see the argument for having some longevity to Legendaries, especially ones that come from the latter instances in an expansion's lifecycle but on the other hand it'd be a bit of a shame if every single serious player had to spend hours and hours in long-redundant raid instances just to have the same BiS loot as everyone else on the server.

I guess you could take it away after a time, much like the way they took away the Drake rewards for Glory of the Raider, which might solve some of the issue but I still think it'd be a shame if you got a certain weapon (or, indeed, trinket) that is just the only one you now need to get ever, y'know.

Taelas
11-13-2009, 06:55 AM
I was very disappointed to see tanks won't get a Quel'Delar. :( Even classes who can't use swords could get a replacement for it, but tanks are forced to pick up a DPS sword? Bah, I say.

Mert
11-13-2009, 07:11 AM
They did say that there would be a version for anyone who can use a sword so I'm still hoping they'll introduce one before Live.

Satorri
11-13-2009, 07:17 AM
/crossing my fingers that Shadowmourne has better stats for a DK tank. =)

Quel'delar having haste made me a sad panda, I'll probably be passing that for other opportunities. I may be able to twist fate for Shadowmourne though. Need more details on it!

Quenchiest
11-13-2009, 08:18 AM
They did say that there would be a version for anyone who can use a sword so I'm still hoping they'll introduce one before Live.

One can hope, but Bornakk clearly said they see no need to add one. I'll still cross my fingers, though, and hope all the forum crying gets something done. =P

Trork
11-13-2009, 08:35 AM
Quel'delar having haste made me a sad panda

Acidbaron
11-13-2009, 12:02 PM
Lightborn Spire (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50052/lightborn-spire/) Is nice for a death knight :P

Less stamina then the sword but agility instead of strenght and expertise aswell on it.

Elemek
11-13-2009, 02:34 PM
Lightborn Spire (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50052/lightborn-spire/) Is nice for a death knight :P

Less stamina then the sword but agility instead of strenght and expertise aswell on it.

I think druids want that a lot more than death knights.

nessin
11-13-2009, 05:32 PM
I'm glad to see that the level of "disappointment" hasn't reached WoW forum levels, but I do feel it needs to be brought up that this is a ridiculous complaint to make. For one, if you're raiding you have or will have access to BETTER tank weapons than the Quel'delar, like Quel'Serrar or the new Brokenhammer. You can't even make the drop argument, since the quest item will be a drop.

If you are not raiding, then why would you even want a tank weapon? By the time you can do the Heroic versions of these new instances you should probably be sporting a DPS weapon with Blade Warding or a DPS booster/Lifeward for the hell of it.

I only point it out because the lack of forethought or god-awful single mindedness of tanks who want a tank version of this weapon is downright disturbing as all hell.

Quenchiest
11-13-2009, 06:13 PM
I'm glad to see that the level of "disappointment" hasn't reached WoW forum levels, but I do feel it needs to be brought up that this is a ridiculous complaint to make. For one, if you're raiding you have or will have access to BETTER tank weapons than the Quel'delar, like Quel'Serrar or the new Brokenhammer. You can't even make the drop argument, since the quest item will be a drop.

Non-Tanks have access to other weapons too. Why is it tanks have to get left out when it comes to the ilvl251 quest reward party?



If you are not raiding, then why would you even want a tank weapon?If you're not raiding, why do you need an ilvl 251 weapon for DPS when it's excessive for heroic content? Same deal.

nessin
11-13-2009, 06:17 PM
Non-Tanks have access to other weapons too. Why is it tanks have to get left out when it comes to the ilvl251 quest reward party?

I'm not sure what game you're playing, but we're taking about WoW. Where do you want me to start with the 1.5 million examples of at whatever level for whatever gear there is some class/spec/role that doesn't have gear that can be quested for while another class/spec/role has gear that can be quested for?


If you're not raiding, why do you need an ilvl 251 weapon when it's excessive for heroic content?

I didn't say NEED, I said WANT. Geeze, I see enough loss of context in the Blizzard forums, we can avoid that here hopefully. No one NEEDs it, but if Blizzard is going to offer it, why in the hell wouldn't I want one, regardless of stat distribution? At the very least its worth cash to a vendor.

Taelas
11-14-2009, 12:26 AM
I'm glad to see that the level of "disappointment" hasn't reached WoW forum levels, but I do feel it needs to be brought up that this is a ridiculous complaint to make. For one, if you're raiding you have or will have access to BETTER tank weapons than the Quel'delar, like Quel'Serrar or the new Brokenhammer. You can't even make the drop argument, since the quest item will be a drop.
It doesn't matter whether there'll be alternatives - the other classes will have alternatives to Quel'Delar as well. You're not making an argument, you're just telling us to shut up.


If you are not raiding, then why would you even want a tank weapon? By the time you can do the Heroic versions of these new instances you should probably be sporting a DPS weapon with Blade Warding or a DPS booster/Lifeward for the hell of it.
This is an utterly ridiculous comment to make. Why should we be denied what everyone else gets?


I only point it out because the lack of forethought or god-awful single mindedness of tanks who want a tank version of this weapon is downright disturbing as all hell.
What is disturbing is that they don't see a problem with denying half the classes of one role a proper weapon. If they were changing things so that we use DPS weapons instead of tanking weapons, I wouldn't have a problem -- but they aren't. There are actual tanking weapons in ICC. But looking at Quel'Delar, there are no less than two 2-handed DPS swords -- and one of them is only good for one class. I feel shafted, here. Why make a sword for hunters that won't be used by anyone but them? Death knights (except maybe tanking DKs -- don't know much about their stats), Arms and Fury warriors and Retribution paladins will all choose the other sword. Yet Protection warriors and Protection paladins cannot get a sword between the two of them?
Hell, throw in the DPS 1-hander too. Only rogues and dual-wielding DKs will pick it up. Hunters will take the 2-hander. DPS warriors use 2-handers. Shamans can't use swords. Retribution paladins use 2-handers.

Do they have a good reason to do what they're doing? Undoubtedly. Would one class or more be shafted almost no matter what? Probably. Are the least amount of people affected here? Most likely. But that doesn't mean I can't be angry and feel shafted over this.

Toushiro
11-14-2009, 10:09 AM
Shadowmourne is a DPS weapon for plate DPS so clearly not hunter loot.

TomHuxley
11-14-2009, 10:48 AM
I'm sorry, but this Quel'delar reward fiasco is BS plain and simple. Yeah, I read the line about the importance of the lore of Quel'delar being DPS...great, except if the lore is so important than there should only be one version and I no longer care that it's not a tank weapon. BUT, they let you turn it in to the faction peeps for a more useful weapon. Meaning there's no lore reason, unless there's a plot line why these factions hate tanks.

Oh but wait, there actually ARE weapons there that are nice for tanks, just not the shield wearing ones. And while the weapons aren't perfectly itemized for healers, they'll still be upgrades for most 10 man raid healers, unless mana regen is your biggest issue.

So let's see...for 10 man raiders (even hardcore ToGC 10 raiders) almost every spec of every class can make good primary-spec use of the quest rewards except prot paladins and prot warriors (and mut rogues). Everyone else has a shot at a BiS item that's a tier or two ahead of what they can possibly get (again, not counting 25 man raiders)...gee, why would those whiney warriors and paladins be irritated? This isn't an exclusive questline, it's one that includes almost everyone, except for half the tank classes expected to carry people to the quest. In a game community that mutters about "tank shortages" this seems like the most counterproductive stupidity I've seen in a long time.

As I suggested on the official forums, if you are "ok" with the quest rewards the way they are, then I suggest you petition Blizz for there be ilvl 264 tanking 1Hs and shields (and a fast dagger) available for purchase with emblems of frost, but no other weapons for any other class, since there's lots of other available options for them.

If you are ok with the first but not the second then you're a hypocrite.

TomHuxley
11-14-2009, 11:01 AM
For one, if you're raiding you have or will have access to BETTER tank weapons than the Quel'delar, like Quel'Serrar or the new Brokenhammer.

If you are not raiding, then why would you even want a tank weapon? By the time you can do the Heroic versions of these new instances you should probably be sporting a DPS weapon with Blade Warding or a DPS booster/Lifeward for the hell of it.

What's disturbing is your arrogance. Many (probably the majority) of raiders do 10 mans, with perhaps the occasional pug into a 25 man. 10 man raiders are ALSO raiders and they do not have access to higher level gear. They are going to end up with either an ilvl 232 or (at best) and ilvl 245 weapon no matter what they do. If they are unlucky they may still have an ilvl 219 or 226 weapon.

Meanwhile, Blizz introduces a non-exclusive quest that lets every spec in the game except prot pallies and warriors and mut rogues that will be BiS for most of them before they even have to set foot in ICC. If you see "nothing wrong" with this then perhaps it's because all 3 of your toons will be able to use the weapons.

nessin
11-14-2009, 12:12 PM
What's disturbing is your arrogance. Many (probably the majority) of raiders do 10 mans, with perhaps the occasional pug into a 25 man. 10 man raiders are ALSO raiders and they do not have access to higher level gear. They are going to end up with either an ilvl 232 or (at best) and ilvl 245 weapon no matter what they do. If they are unlucky they may still have an ilvl 219 or 226 weapon.

Meanwhile, Blizz introduces a non-exclusive quest that lets every spec in the game except prot pallies and warriors and mut rogues that will be BiS for most of them before they even have to set foot in ICC. If you see "nothing wrong" with this then perhaps it's because all 3 of your toons will be able to use the weapons.

My arrogance? Oh, I'll admit I'm arrogant, but regardless of what YOU want, Blizzard has actually came out (as part of this incident) and stated that they aren't in the business of providing gear to every single spec and class combo with regards to quest rewards. Its disturbing that you think that, considering there are pieces you can't get via questing at all in WotLK (notably, a tank trinket). Unfair or not, its Blizzards decision to put in a tank weapon or not for this quest chain, and unlike other instances they've come out and explicitly stated they aren't going to do it and why. Continuing to call for one is pointless and a exercise in idiocy. At this point Blizzard is more than aware that some of the community wants a tank weapon version of Quel'delar, and its up to them to change their minds.

Finally, I'm a "can I get the job done" kind of guy. I don't give a damn if I've got a ilevel 1 weapon or an ilevel 251 weapon, as long as I can get the job done without proving to be a burden above and beyond what is under my control. With that in mind, my original statement holds true. At the point you get this weapon if you don't raid, using a DPS weapon for tanking is the better option as you won't need extra survivability for the 5-mans (a slight assumption on my part, but I doubt they're going to increase the difficulty significantly more than has already been shown). If you're raiding, you will have access to alternatives because, when you drop the loot whore gear-score mindset, having (at the very least) the Peacekeeper Blade instead of something higher isn't going to make or break a raid 99% of the time. And absolutely will never break a 5-man group all geared the barest minimum needed for all WotLK 5-man instances.

And for the record, I focus on three characters for my raiding (when I was still doing it) and level 80 activities in WotLK. Two of those are a Warrior and Tank, both spec'd Prot with one of their specs.

Finally, I would like to point out the sheer stupidity of your statement. You go on to say that raiders who only raid 10-mans will not have access to a 251+ tanking weapon, except the new tank weapon I made note in my original posting IS A 10-MAN ILEVEL 251 TANKING WEAPON FROM 10MAN ICECROWN CITADEL! I felt it deserved capitals because you had trouble reading it the first time.

Edit:
<Cut this part out of my original post, it was just plain confrontational and wasn't necessary>

Edit #2:
I thought I'd flesh my point of view a bit. I understand the position you and others are coming from. You feel its unfair and want everything to be equal. Or you're angry because you feel you won't have the best tank weapon possible compared to everyone else and their weapons. But my point of view is that its a game, and I want to have fun playing it. The fact that this is a DPS weapon only (or healing weapon in some cases), means I can obtain a nice high-end DPS weapon which I normally wouldn't be able to because I often get into pick-up instances and raids as a tank, not a DPS character, but I still enjoy doing the DPS role. In addition to all that, I can sit back and calmly recognize that while it might mean my weapon slot lags behind DPS or Caster classes, it doesn't mean my ability to tank or be a fully functioning member of the raid has changed at all, simply because Blizzard did not include a tank weapon for a high end quest reward.

TomHuxley
11-14-2009, 01:12 PM
My arrogance? Oh, I'll admit I'm arrogant, but regardless of what YOU want, Blizzard has actually came out (as part of this incident) and stated that they aren't in the business of providing gear to every single spec and class combo with regards to quest rewards. Its disturbing that you think that, considering there are pieces you can't get via questing at all in WotLK (notably, a tank trinket).

You're missing the point. Most quest chains don't provide rewards for everyone, no one complains. Most items needed after the first tier of raiding don't come from quest lines at all. Legendaries usually at most help one role (and not necessarily all specs of that role), meh. No one is complaining about the idea that an epic quest might help just one class or spec.

But this isn't a quest that's just there for feral tanks, or just caster DPS. It's a quest that provides weapons to almost every class/spec in the game, including half the tank classes. Furthermore, for 10 man raiders it's a tier or two ahead of what they'll have. It's a horrible precedent and should be opposed regardless of what side of the reward aisle you're on. This effects class balance (healers as well as tanks, since some have greater issues with mana regen), etc. It's just not a good idea.

Either the rewards should be nerfed back down to be equivalent to whats in raids, they should be more restricted (only help DPS 2H wielders) or they ought to just include everyone. Or heck, just throw some weapons on the emblem vendors loot list for the classes that for whatever reason you don't want participating in the quest line.


Unfair or not, its Blizzards decision to put in a tank weapon or not for this quest chain, and unlike other instances they've come out and explicitly stated they aren't going to do it and why.

Continuing to call for one is pointless and a exercise in idiocy. At this point Blizzard is more than aware that some of the community wants a tank weapon version of Quel'delar, and its up to them to change their minds.

First of all, Blizz changes its mind all the time. Second of all, it's important to articulate that this isn't just a "gimme my tank lootz!" issue, it's a larger problem with the execution. I was thrilled to see there would be an epic quest line that would reward everyone (and "everyone" is very much how they worded it). I thought it was a brilliant way to allow them to spend time and resources to resurrect the epic questlines of old.

But if what they meant is from time to time they are going to randomly allow players to gear ahead of others by a tier or so (including others in the same role) merely based on random class choices then it's a horrible idea. I realize this has almost not impact on 25 man raiders, but it's a pretty large gear improvement for 10 man raiders, especially if you're still struggling to get most of your guild ready for ToGC 10.


Finally, I'm a "can I get the job done" kind of guy. I don't give a damn if I've got a ilevel 1 weapon or an ilevel 251 weapon, as long as I can get the job done without proving to be a burden above and beyond what is under my control.

Me too. That's why I happily wear the blue ilvl 200 JC trinket in my EH set, because we haven't downed Yogg (I know...people can't stop touching the clouds, what can I say) for that stam trinket and I don't get a chance to pug into many 25 mans (parent, spend most of our available time raiding in guild). I didn't go petition Blizz to hurry up and put a stam trinket in 10 man raids, or to make one available with emblems, I got the loot available to me and made the most of it (I AM delighted to see there's a stam trinket available for frost emblems though). It's also why I craft the tanking crafteds at great expense to myself, because depending on attendance we may or may not be OP for ToC 10, etc. So I do what I can to make sure my raid succeeds in whatever way I can control. And if I were 2 of the other 3 tanking classes I'd be out there doing what I could to get a weapon upgrade before we head into ICC 10. But for some reason they have elected to elevate only half the tank classes, along with basically everyone else this way. And it's a poor idea, and will still suck the next time it happens, even if there's a shield but no druid tank weapon.

With that in mind, my original statement holds true. At the point you get this weapon if you don't raid, using a DPS weapon for tanking is the better option as you won't need extra survivability for the 5-mans (a slight assumption on my part, but I doubt they're going to increase the difficulty significantly more than has already been shown). If you're raiding, you will have access to alternatives because, when you drop the loot whore gear-score mindset, having (at the very least) the Peacekeeper Blade instead of something higher isn't going to make or break a raid 99% of the time. And absolutely will never break a 5-man group all geared the barest minimum needed for all WotLK 5-man instances.


Finally, I would like to point out the sheer stupidity of your statement. You go on to say that raiders who only raid 10-mans will not have access to a 251+ tanking weapon, except the new tank weapon I made note in my original posting IS A 10-MAN ILEVEL 251 TANKING WEAPON FROM 10MAN ICECROWN CITADEL! I felt it deserved capitals because you had trouble reading it the first time.

You're missing the point. That's a weapon that's available after you start to kill bosses. You have to get there first. The problem here isn't that things won't be equal after everyone finished farming T10, it's that it will be easier for some to defeat the T10 content than others, and there's no good reason for it to be that way.


Since Burning Crusade at various points & times Feral Druids have had access to Best-in-Slot PvE weapons through the PvP system. Where were you when that was true (I think it still is in some slots still)? Probably enjoying your Paladin/Warrior, not concerned with Druids.

Actually, since I geared up to tank for the first time about half way through BC, I was wearing pvp items because I could grind them through BGs to both get uncritable and also get enough stam and armor (also I used the S1 shield for like two months until we started downing Gruul). So being able to use PVP gear in PVE seemed like an advantage to me at the time. In restrospect, I agree that druids got shafted on some of the gear in BC. Of course two wrongs don't really make a right here.


I thought I'd flesh my point of view a bit. I understand the position you and others are coming from. You feel its unfair and want everything to be equal. Or you're angry because you feel you won't have the best tank weapon possible compared to everyone else and their weapons.

I appreciate the return to this tenor; I'm not entirely sure you see what I'm objecting to, but I appreciate it anyways. My point isn't that everything should be fair. It's that if it's going to be "unfair" do so in a way that doesn't benefit almost everyone. E.g. make the quest just drop the one 2H DPS weapon. Or if it "truly" should only reward DPS weapons, spend the itemization on DPS-based procs, don't drape them in agility, expertise, spell power, stamina, etc. and then say "they're supposed to be DPS weapons, how were we, the developers, supposed to know they'd also be good for healers and non-shield tanks?".


The fact that this is a DPS weapon only (or healing weapon in some cases), means I can obtain a nice high-end DPS weapon which I normally wouldn't be able to because I often get into pick-up instances and raids as a tank, not a DPS character, but I still enjoy doing the DPS role.

Except I won't get it (at least not until long after I'll have got some DPS chaff from ICC because everyone has one), because while I'm running those 5 mans to try and get it I'll be passing it to my guild DPS and healers. Maybe if I pug it and I'm in a spiteful mood I'll role need on it, but I doubt it as when push comes to shove I don't like taking offspec loot from people who can use it for their mainspec. Once we've been clearing ICC I won't care (and btw, neither will most other people...those who do the quest will by and large do it very early on, either as epeen or else to help upgrade before raids).


In addition to all that, I can sit back and calmly recognize that while it might mean my weapon slot lags behind DPS or Caster classes, it doesn't mean my ability to tank or be a fully functioning member of the raid has changed at all, simply because Blizzard did not include a tank weapon for a high end quest reward.

Again, that were the only issue that would be fine, much like in 25 man ulduar the stam trinket drops off an accessible boss but in 10 man ulduar it doesn't. Meh. The new questline, however, ihas a design flaw, and it's one that should not be repeated, even if I'm on the winning side of the next class lottery. Rewards should be either very exclusive (tradition epic questlines), very specific to roll (just DPS and no one else), inclusive (self descriptive), or provide rewards that are not above what others can get (then it's just about the fun of the questline). Or as a last option provide an alternative source of requivalent gearing. Or just freakin' release the quest a month or so after raiding has commenced on 3.3 (when it will still be an upgrade for casual raiders but no longer one for 10 man raiders).

But let's not pretend that it's ok to randomly pick 9/10s of the specs and classes out there to randomly jump ahead a tier or two in their weapons while randomly leaving behind other classes. And if you do so, own up to it (referring to the devs here) and don't tell us they're just for DPSers when clearly they can be used by healers and other tank classes.

TomHuxley
11-14-2009, 01:38 PM
BTW, here are the list of potential solutions I posted to the official forums. Note that in all but the first case shield tanks would not get weapon added in to the questline. I'm not looking for "everything being totally identical" I'm just looking for broad equality of access to loot vis a vis 10 man raiding:


1) Add in quest rewards for the missing other classes/specs. Obviously the one most posters are asking for. Apparently not desirable for some reason to the devs, but it's the solution with the most winners.

2) Put equivalent weapons for the losing classes for sale on the emblem of frost vendor. Preserve's whatever is special about not having tank/mut rogue/enh shammy weapons available from the quest factions, but makes it so all 10 man raiders can gear up similarly before tackling ICC. Maybe less cool than an epic questline, but at least shield tanks also have an incentive to grind those 5 mans. And while not everyone wins equally, no one really "loses".

3) Don't release the epic questline for a month or two after the raids go live. At that point it's truly a casual weapon, everyone who does 10 man raids probably has had a chance to upgrade (i.e. there really are "other options" for the left out classes then). No down side to this unless people really are going to do this asap to gear for raids (duh, IMO) but then we're back to needing a more equitable solution for gearing up for ICC.

4) Make the weapons truly DPS-only. Easy enough, spend the itemization on DPS procs (chance on damaging hit to increase crit/haste/etc by X amount for Y seconds). Then it's truly a DPS-oriented questline and we aren't stealth buffing healers/come tanks. This solution still suggests a need for other DPS specs (enh shammies, mut rogues), and makes losers out of healers and druid/DK tanks.

5) Make the questline only drop 1 weapon, like past epic questlines. We all understand what an exclusive questline is, it's the gearing ahead of 90% of the class/spec combo's that's the issue. Of course this creates a lot of losers (e.g. all caster DPS, all healers). Also, since developers have commented that the main problem with epic questlines was how few got to enjoy them, it may create losers of us all in the future (i.e. no more of them). Still better than the 10% class/spec loser lottery of the current questline, but generally not my favored solution.

6) Nerf the items to ilvl 245 or ilvl 232. Then the quest line is just about the fun, it preserves whatever is important about excluding 10% of the class/spec combos, and no one gets geared disproportionately prior to ICC. The ilvl 245 solution would even be an upgrade still for non-raiders, but would be a much smaller upgrade for most 10 man raiders (and would make all raiding weapons in ICC upgrades). This makes losers of non-raiders who wanted ilvl epeen, and of course all of the 10 man raiders who hoped to get a substantial upgrade before getting into ICC.


There may be others, but any of these would be fair (some would result in more QQ than others). I prefer 1) or 2) myself. The point is that it's very poor design to have epic questlines that can reward such a large part of the raiding community but not like 5-10% of the 10 man raiders. It's the concept that's the problem. The weapons could have been itemized in a way that benefits only DPS and not healers or some tanks, but the aren't. The reward ilvl or the release timing or the quest could be changed to not disproportionately impact 10 man raiders, but currently it isn't.

This is not merely "gimme my tank lootz!" QQ, this is a larger issue with the design of the questline and the rewards. It's an idea (the return of epic questlines) that I like, but the execution needs to be improved or else it creates more problems than it solves.

fuddjupp
11-14-2009, 04:08 PM
Very well said Tom! Very well and true.

nessin
11-14-2009, 07:14 PM
But this isn't a quest that's just there for feral tanks, or just caster DPS. It's a quest that provides weapons to almost every class/spec in the game, including half the tank classes. Furthermore, for 10 man raiders it's a tier or two ahead of what they'll have. It's a horrible precedent and should be opposed regardless of what side of the reward aisle you're on. This effects class balance (healers as well as tanks, since some have greater issues with mana regen), etc. It's just not a good idea.

For one, you can't say its a quest reward for Feral tanks. Feral weapons are just feral weapons now. Much like DK weapons are DK weapons, as opposed to DK Tank weapons and DK DPS weapons.. Sure, you've got slight variability between the stats you can/want to focus on, but Blizzard has designed those classes to use, in effect, DPS oriented weapons as their tank weapon. What is not a good idea is to change that back to how it was, as it just brings back a problem Blizzard had for years and will affect the game well beyond patch 3.3.

Even ignoring the fact that the publicly voiced community is often a minority in games, you would find it very difficult to establish that the merge of item stats is a bad thing compared to how it was before they did it at all.




Either the rewards should be nerfed back down to be equivalent to whats in raids, they should be more restricted (only help DPS 2H wielders) or they ought to just include everyone. Or heck, just throw some weapons on the emblem vendors loot list for the classes that for whatever reason you don't want participating in the quest line.



[quote]First of all, Blizz changes its mind all the time. Second of all, it's important to articulate that this isn't just a "gimme my tank lootz!" issue, it's a larger problem with the execution. I was thrilled to see there would be an epic quest line that would reward everyone (and "everyone" is very much how they worded it). I thought it was a brilliant way to allow them to spend time and resources to resurrect the epic questlines of old.I simply stated that its up to Blizzard to change their mind if they want too. I'm well aware that Blizzard changes their minds, so at this point its down to either they do or they don't. Continuing to bring up the subject is pointless.

Furthermore, this quest line does reward everyone. DPS weapons are not useless to a tank. Simply not the most desired weapon in one small subset of the game. Don't get caught up in the idea that raids are life and the only important thing in the game. Unless you're prepared to somehow defend that more people raid than not.


But if what they meant is from time to time they are going to randomly allow players to gear ahead of others by a tier or so (including others in the same role) merely based on random class choices then it's a horrible idea. I realize this has almost not impact on 25 man raiders, but it's a pretty large gear improvement for 10 man raiders, especially if you're still struggling to get most of your guild ready for ToGC 10.

You're missing the point. That's a weapon that's available after you start to kill bosses. You have to get there first. The problem here isn't that things won't be equal after everyone finished farming T10, it's that it will be easier for some to defeat the T10 content than others, and there's no good reason for it to be that way.

And here we get back into the short-sighted nature of raiders. I'm sorry if that is insulting, but it is rather true. Its difficult to gear up new players, or at least new characters, to raid after a few raids have been released. I don't know if you've ever thought about that, but Blizzard has to. And in order for a game to grow, or at least not fall into ruin, they have to take measures to help that process to allow new players to get into current raids (because its often very difficult to find guilds who do old raids, and pick up groups are hardly ideal for fresh players getting into raiding), and to keep the non-raiding/pvp'ing population interested and continuing to invest in the game.

Because someone doesn't raid, either 10 or 25-man, or has chosen not to do so until a point where almost everyone raids beyond the original low-end content, should they be punished? No, so Blizzard adds in little quirks like these quests and new dungeons for better gear, so they can be better prepared to meet the current demands of the game should they explore other avenues of entertainment within it.

Of course, I can already see your reply, "So where is the tank weapon for tanks to gear up with?" Quite frankly, and I know people will disagree with this on me but that hardly changes the fact that its blatantly true, the weapon slot for a tank is pretty unimportant compared to every other slot. Whereas for the DPS, the focus of these quest rewards, get the absolute most benefit from their weapon slot, far more than any other equipment slot. That isn't to say weapon slots aren't important, but there is a vast disparity of criticality between tanks and dps/healers for that slot.




I appreciate the return to this tenor; I'm not entirely sure you see what I'm objecting to, but I appreciate it anyways. My point isn't that everything should be fair. It's that if it's going to be "unfair" do so in a way that doesn't benefit almost everyone. E.g. make the quest just drop the one 2H DPS weapon. Or if it "truly" should only reward DPS weapons, spend the itemization on DPS-based procs, don't drape them in agility, expertise, spell power, stamina, etc. and then say "they're supposed to be DPS weapons, how were we, the developers, supposed to know they'd also be good for healers and non-shield tanks?".And yet no one in the entire game can explain how, in a reasonable argument, this doesn't benefit "everyone". Very few people anymore are Just tank spec'd, and even if you're just tank spec'd a DPS focused weapon is probably better for questing, better for PvP work, better for tanking content you outgear. Just because you feel it isn't useful to you for your one chosen purpose that you take as the only thing that matters in the game, doesn't mean it isn't useful to everyone in reality. And I discussed the combined vs separate gear design issue earlier, if you want to get into the argument about the benefit of that, I'll do it. But before that has to happen you've got to sit down and write out that you understand you're asking for Blizzard to redact a change to equipment that was done in the face of overwhelming pressure (far more overwhelming pressure than this issue is generating) from the community (and I'm assuming other factors were involved as well) over the course of YEARS. People were complaining about gear being too diverse since before the first commercial player of WoW set foot into a raid.



Except I won't get it (at least not until long after I'll have got some DPS chaff from ICC because everyone has one), because while I'm running those 5 mans to try and get it I'll be passing it to my guild DPS and healers. Maybe if I pug it and I'm in a spiteful mood I'll role need on it, but I doubt it as when push comes to shove I don't like taking offspec loot from people who can use it for their mainspec. Once we've been clearing ICC I won't care (and btw, neither will most other people...those who do the quest will by and large do it very early on, either as epeen or else to help upgrade before raids).If I run with guildies, I'll do the same thing and be perfectly happy with my choice and Blizzards. PUGs are another matter, unless I'm friends with some of them or know them from past PUG experiences. But I'm fine with that. But, as I pointed out, its entirely reasonable for you, even as a raid tank, to have a justifiable main-spec excuse for taking this.



But let's not pretend that it's ok to randomly pick 9/10s of the specs and classes out there to randomly jump ahead a tier or two in their weapons while randomly leaving behind other classes. And if you do so, own up to it (referring to the devs here) and don't tell us they're just for DPSers when clearly they can be used by healers and other tank classes.Perfectly okay to me. I've leveled up five level 80 characters, and I've never had a problem that every quest that offers gear for 5-6 spec/class combos doesn't offer gear for every last one. Yeah yeah yeah, I'll come back with the statement you'll make, something along the lines of "but this is for a end-game weapon that gets almost everyone but two specific specs". Again, so? Really, that argument only holds water if you can point to a single instance where Blizzard HAS done that. But you can't, because they never have. It doesn't set a bad precedent, as you stated earlier in your thread, because there exists no precedent for what you want. On top of that, Blizzard has already stated they don't intend to ever do what you want.

I may still be missing the core idea behind what your issue is, but how can I take any position like yours seriously when you're bent out of shape and want Blizzard to do something they've absolutely never have done before and have stated they don't necessarily ever intend to do. To me that means you're feeling like its unfair to you as a Warrior/Paladin tank. But how can Blizzard be unfair about it when its following the exact same "precedent" they've followed since day one?

But of course, you come back with the raider response. Well, my response to that:

Before we go any further with this, can you at least acknowledge that World of Warcraft exists beyond a raid environment? Seriously. Every single issue you've brought up relates to a raiders perspective of this problem. Which brings up a real problem when you argue this with me because I was once a hardcore raider and now I haven't touched a raid in over two months, and I don't intend to doing one anytime soon. I've actively been turning down offers to join current raids from my guildies who do raid, because I've got no interest in it anymore. My very existence proves you're ignoring a large part of the game that Blizzard can't ignore. I'm going to get this weapon eventually, and I'm going to use it in a useful and meaningful way as a tank without stepping foot into a raid. Why? Simply because doing so invalidates 90% of the justifications given by people upset by this change.

TomHuxley
11-15-2009, 12:12 PM
For one, you can't say its a quest reward for Feral tanks. Feral weapons are just feral weapons now. Much like DK weapons are DK weapons, as opposed to DK Tank weapons and DK DPS weapons.. Sure, you've got slight variability between the stats you can/want to focus on, but Blizzard has designed those classes to use, in effect, DPS oriented weapons as their tank weapon.

See, this is horsecrap to me. No, not your statement that feral tanks and DKs use DPS weapons...I realize that and I agree with you that overall stat merging has so far been a good idea (albeit with some trepidation that it could go too far in Cataclysm...but we'll see). But it's patantly false that they couldn't have made these weapons just for DPS. All they had to do was use a decent chunk of the itemization on "chance on hit to increase crit chance" sort of things and they would have been largely useless for any tank (and for most healers) since the stamina and spellpower would have been siphoned off.

There are many weapons in the game like this, so it's not like Blizzard can sit around and say "This is just a DPS quest, how were WE supposed to know that healers and half the tanks could use them too???"


I simply stated that its up to Blizzard to change their mind if they want too. I'm well aware that Blizzard changes their minds, so at this point its down to either they do or they don't. Continuing to bring up the subject is pointless.

So why do you bother to provide a counter here rather than just letting those of us who are upset to provide out PoV? Either you just like the debate (which is fine) or you are acting on an implicit assumption that overall feedback may well sway them. I don't necessarily mean here on Tankspot...but the point remains that usually when you want someone to see the light of day that sitting around doing nothing is not the best way to go about it.


Furthermore, this quest line does reward everyone. DPS weapons are not useless to a tank. Simply not the most desired weapon in one small subset of the game.

Even this is B.S. Several people (including myself) on the official forums had said if there was a one-hander that was itemized for plate wearers (strength, stam, etc) that would be one thing...it would still be obnoxious, but not slap-in-the-face exclusion. Stick a fast strength/stam DPS 1H in there and I'll find better things to do most happily.


And here we get back into the short-sighted nature of raiders. I'm sorry if that is insulting, but it is rather true. Its difficult to gear up new players, or at least new characters, to raid after a few raids have been released. I don't know if you've ever thought about that, but Blizzard has to.

While your condescension is appreciated, I myself was one of those people who had to gear up late in an expansion in BC, and it was a decent bit harder then, so I fully appreciate the reason they have made it easier. And I'm NOT one of the people who bitches every time they make the previous tiers emblems available in heroics. It's fine, I think it's great that more people get to see raid content, or strut around in finer gear in Dalaran, or whatever. I realize that millions of other people have to play the game if it's going to continue to exist and expand for myself. Indeed, I'm in a fairly casual raiding guild, where we have maybe 6-8 core raiders who are always there and min/max, and usually some other people that are just good people that come along as well. It's why we haven't downed Yogg yet, but it's not the end of the world.


Because someone doesn't raid, either 10 or 25-man, or has chosen not to do so until a point where almost everyone raids beyond the original low-end content, should they be punished? No, so Blizzard adds in little quirks like these quests and new dungeons for better gear, so they can be better prepared to meet the current demands of the game should they explore other avenues of entertainment within it.

And here we depart. Yes, they should do what they have been doing (providing fast PVE catch ups to the previous tier of gear). That way anyone, whether new or an alt can rapidly catch up to current raid tiers. Even in our guild it helps our less regular raiders (or those who take breaks for real life reasons) to step back in and participate several months after the fact. But this is NOT providing access for the last tier of gear, this is providing the next tier, and it's explicitly PVE gear (i.e. it's FOR raiders, or those who wish to be). And providing it to almost everyone but skippin 3 specs is NOT ok. Given the never-ending effort to balance tanks (for example) it's a horrible idea to suddenly have a random lottery where you gear half of them to BiS weapons (assuming you aren't ToGC 25 raiding here) just because. Having a "everyone can upgrade except mut rogues and shield tanks" quest that rewards beyond current gear is NOT ok.


Quite frankly, and I know people will disagree with this on me but that hardly changes the fact that its blatantly true, the weapon slot for a tank is pretty unimportant compared to every other slot.

Uh yeah, you're completely wrong. Sure, for survival it's no greater or worse than a helm or boots, but when it comes to laying down decent threat (especially if you're wearing survival gear) it's very important. And of course there isn't even a DPS weapon itemized for plate wearers. But the fact that it's a weapon is irrelevant. If they were giving away T10 helmets to everyone except mut rogues and shield tanks it would be just as wrong.


And yet no one in the entire game can explain how, in a reasonable argument, this doesn't benefit "everyone". Very few people anymore are Just tank spec'd, and even if you're just tank spec'd a DPS focused weapon is probably better for questing, better for PvP work, better for tanking content you outgear.

If there were a strength/stam 1H DPS weaon this would almost be a valid argument. As there isn't, it isn't. Sure, I have two tank specs, but I agree that I could make use out of a fast 1H with actual plate-wearers stats. Fun in heroics, for questing, etc. Still kind of like them handing out T10 hats to everyone but telling warriors and pallies they can't get the tanking helm, but the degree of stupidity would certaily shrink.


But before that has to happen you've got to sit down and write out that you understand you're asking for Blizzard to redact a change to equipment that was done in the face of overwhelming pressure (far more overwhelming pressure than this issue is generating) from the community (and I'm assuming other factors were involved as well) over the course of YEARS. People were complaining about gear being too diverse since before the first commercial player of WoW set foot into a raid.

Huh? Nonsense, I've said several times (including prior to your response) that it was easy to make the weapons useless to all tanks by giving them DPS procs rather than slathering them in stamina, expertise, and agility (or spellpower and intel). It's blizzards own solution used repeatedly in Wrath (see the original EoH badge rewards, where the trinkets only proc on either healing spells or damaging spells, for example). Could easily have been done here if the goal was to make a DPS-only quest. Since they failed to take such an easy solution (that is in fact their own solution) then claims that they really only wanted this to be a DPS quest but shoot, I guess healers and half the tanks can also use them rings as hollow at best, and complete bullshit at worst.


Perfectly okay to me. I've leveled up five level 80 characters, and I've never had a problem that every quest that offers gear for 5-6 spec/class combos doesn't offer gear for every last one. Yeah yeah yeah, I'll come back with the statement you'll make, something along the lines of "but this is for a end-game weapon that gets almost everyone but two specific specs". Again, so? Really, that argument only holds water if you can point to a single instance where Blizzard HAS done that. But you can't, because they never have.

Um, thanks for making my point? The only precedent for these epic weapon questlines were for single weapons, they only helped 1 spec of one class usually, sometimes they may have helped two. This is a new beast, where they are providing endgame weapons to almost everyone. That's my POINT, is this is NOT an ok evolution of the epic questline. That's why I made a post with several different ways how they could fix not just this one but future attempts. I like the idea of bringing back epic questlines, but it's just not ok to do them were it will help 20/23 specs in the game. For endgame upgrades like this they need to find a more equitable solution (hence my list of suggestions a couple posts up). And this should be solved now, so it doesn't happen to others in the future.


It doesn't set a bad precedent, as you stated earlier in your thread, because there exists no precedent for what you want.

Do you understand what a precedent is? The point is that this is the first of its kind, and it's NOT executed in manner that is acceptable. THAT'S the point of the feedback. What's disturbing is that (based on limited blue responses) they are adopting the attitude of "we're really surprised that when we gave BiS weapon upgrades to 90% of the specs that the other 10% felt left out". THAT is either hubris, or a total disconnect. And rather than helping people "invest" in the game is creates a very negative feeling for those who get shafted.


Before we go any further with this, can you at least acknowledge that World of Warcraft exists beyond a raid environment? Seriously. Every single issue you've brought up relates to a raiders perspective of this problem.

Sure. I have no problem with that at all. Can you admit that raiding, even for those who don't but only want to, is still a major component of the game, and that it obviously has to be one of the factors in a decision that involves giving away PVE gear? Why bother making it so good, or making it available so early in the Tier cycle if it's not there for raideres? Who cares if it's ilvl 245 or 251 if you just wanna run H UP three times a week with it?

If your contention is that raids are not the end all I agree; if your contention is that raids are less important than a numeric epeen for someone who wants to strut around Dalaran in it, then you're on your own.


My very existence proves you're ignoring a large part of the game that Blizzard can't ignore.

No, your existence only proves that one person does this. I don't disagree that there are others in your shoes, but why not toss out high end PVP weapons, or just really shiny ones that don't have any actual stats if you don't want to use them as intended? If you're going to hand out PVE weapons that are BiS for raiders to people, you HAVE to take raiders into consideration, even if they aren't the only consideration.


I'm going to get this weapon eventually, and I'm going to use it in a useful and meaningful way as a tank without stepping foot into a raid. Why? Simply because doing so invalidates 90% of the justifications given by people upset by this change.

No, that just proves that the amount of free time you have extends beyond TS. Nothing you could do with the sword would have the slightest impact on the fact that giving away PVE weapons requires some sense of how it fits into the entire PVE environment.

nessin
11-15-2009, 04:41 PM
I'm going to drop the issue as I've already proven I get too heated over it and don't want to cause any more discontent, but I did want to address three issues:


Uh yeah, you're completely wrong. Sure, for survival it's no greater or worse than a helm or boots, but when it comes to laying down decent threat (especially if you're wearing survival gear) it's very important. And of course there isn't even a DPS weapon itemized for plate wearers. But the fact that it's a weapon is irrelevant. If they were giving away T10 helmets to everyone except mut rogues and shield tanks it would be just as wrong.The stats on a weapon compared to the stats on a piece of armor are exactly the same. If one helm has +5 strength, and a sword has +5 strength, it matters exactly 0% where you got it from, its still just +5 strength. Which means, for a weapon, the only thing that matters, is the percentage of your stats gained from the weapon (its "item weight" if you will) and its damage range/speed for attacks. I could sit here and compare items, but I'll let you do that (although I'm sure you're already aware of it), but a weapon is one the smaller slots when it comes to item weight. Which means, other slots are far more important for getting stats. So, look at weapon damage. ANY weapon offers a damage range, so from a damage factor, you simply need a weapon be it dps or tank oriented.

So yeah, the weapon slot is pretty minor to a tank compared to a DPS class.


Do you understand what a precedent is? The point is that this is the first of its kind, and it's NOT executed in manner that is acceptable. THAT'S the point of the feedback. What's disturbing is that (based on limited blue responses) they are adopting the attitude of "we're really surprised that when we gave BiS weapon upgrades to 90% of the specs that the other 10% felt left out". THAT is either hubris, or a total disconnect. And rather than helping people "invest" in the game is creates a very negative feeling for those who get shafted.They aren't setting a precedent here, because they're doing the exact same thing they've always done, provide a quest that gives a wide variety of rewards but does not get every single class/spec combo. Exactly how is this quest the first of its kind if its oriented exactly how every single quest that offers gear in the game is designed?


If your contention is that raids are not the end all I agree; if your contention is that raids are less important than a numeric epeen for someone who wants to strut around Dalaran in it, then you're on your own.I fully understand raiding is a integral part of the game. But that doesn't change the fact that in the grand scheme of the game only a minority of players actually get involved in raiding. To address an issue specifically from a raiding standpoint when raiding does not represent the majority factor in and of itself is just futile. The concerns of any one "group" of players should be considered, but they shouldn't be considered at the expense of everyone else, especially when they don't hold the majority share.

If you ignore all concerns that raiders may have over this issue, what are you left with? The quest is a reward for people who enjoy doing the 5-man content and enjoy quest lines? Maybe its as simple as that? And hell, at the end of the day not all raiders and not all tanks are upset with this, so if some tanks/raiders are perfectly happy with this gear and some people aren't, then maybe the correct answer is that people who think the lack of a tank reward should just be happy other people are enjoying it instead of finding ways to maximize their own gain.

Edit: I felt I should caveat that statement. I fully understand discourse and the question rising up if Blizzard hadn't put their foot down, because maybe they just over-looked it, or had future plans. But Blizzard has put the foot down, which is where the previous paragraph comes into play.

Finally, why did you have to bring the epeen contest into it? So everyone who doesn't raid but is after the best gear possible outside of raiding, just as a goal to achieve and enjoy in the game, fits into that mold?

TomHuxley
11-16-2009, 12:19 AM
The stats on a weapon compared to the stats on a piece of armor are exactly the same. If one helm has +5 strength, and a sword has +5 strength, it matters exactly 0% where you got it from, its still just +5 strength.

Yup. Same is true for DPS specs, just to be clear.


Which means, for a weapon, the only thing that matters, is the percentage of your stats gained from the weapon (its "item weight" if you will) and its damage range/speed for attacks. I could sit here and compare items, but I'll let you do that (although I'm sure you're already aware of it), but a weapon is one the smaller slots when it comes to item weight. Which means, other slots are far more important for getting stats. So, look at weapon damage. ANY weapon offers a damage range, so from a damage factor, you simply need a weapon be it dps or tank oriented.

So yeah, the weapon slot is pretty minor to a tank compared to a DPS class.

No. No, no, no. For casters and hunters (and obviously healers) they are all shiny graphics with stats on them. For melee (including tanks) the damage done is more directly linked to them (I say "more directly" because some specs like ret pallies and some DKs get damage from spell or disease related items too, so the correlation isn't as tight as with say combat rogues or arms warriors), and so the weapon-damage range, which of course scales with ilvl. So in terms of impacting performance weapon ilvl is more important for melee than caster or healers, and this includes tanks. Of course tanks do less DPS, but they still need the concurrent increase in TPS, which IS dependent on the weapon range (and speed, depending on spec) and therefore ilvl.

Of course tanks have to survive, which is why (when doing raid content or any other content they don't outgear) they need to have tank-specced weapons to succeed, and why it's such an important slot. More important than melee DPS? No, that wouldn't be fair, as for tanks survival trumps threat, even if threat is important. But compared to caster DPS and healers, tank weapons are at least as important (and really more so as content difficulty and group gearing increases), so your arguement that said "all others' weapons > tank weapons" is patently false.


They aren't setting a precedent here, because they're doing the exact same thing they've always done, provide a quest that gives a wide variety of rewards but does not get every single class/spec combo. Exactly how is this quest the first of its kind if its oriented exactly how every single quest that offers gear in the game is designed?

Let's see...because there has never, EVER been an epic endgame questline with the rewards done like this before? You can't compare this to quests in Area 52 that provided 5 possible rewards, those were sub level cap questing greens and blues. Of COURSE they don't reward every spec of every class, the point is that it evens out over the leveling process, and that it has no real impact on endgame content.

They have also done (mostly in Vanilla) endgame epic questlines, invariably for weapons, and those have ALWAYS rewarded a vary narrow slice of classes and specs, and they worked for that reason. Almost everyone was excluded, and that fact meant they didn't tip pve balance across the board. And of course over time those questlines rewarded different classes and specs. Unfortunately, they also required lots of time and effort for relatively unseen content, so those types of quest lines sort of dried up over the course of the two expansions.

This is a reintroduction of the classic endgame qeapon epic quest line, but they are doing it in a way they have never, ever done them before. And I think the general idea is great, but it's absolutely not ok to have the rewards break down like this, where the quest is basically a "help everyone but shield tanks and mut rogues" questline. And since future versions will be based on the perceived success of this one, it's imperative that we make the point that the idea (bringing back epic questlines) is really neat, but making them substanially gear people (who are inherently in competition) and excluding a small minority of them is NOT an ok change in the design. They either need to be all inclusive, or they need to make the rewards not shift the balance of the gearing up process. I prefer the former solution, but either is preferable to the current implementation.


I fully understand raiding is a integral part of the game. But that doesn't change the fact that in the grand scheme of the game only a minority of players actually get involved in raiding.

Now I think you're pulling numbers from where the sun doesn't shine. Ignore people who only PvP for a moment (because they presumably don't really care anyways) and I suspect the majority of players with level 80 toons raid, if only pugging into VoA and Ony. Sure, the percentage of players who raid several times a week in a guild is not a majority, but for PVE players raiding dominates the endgame environment, even if it doesn't dominate your time spent.


To address an issue specifically from a raiding standpoint when raiding does not represent the majority factor in and of itself is just futile. The concerns of any one "group" of players should be considered, but they shouldn't be considered at the expense of everyone else, especially when they don't hold the majority share.

Not only are your assumptions probably wrong (as noted above) but they also miss the larger point. Gear either helps you conquer harder content (raid, heroics, pvp, or otherwise) or it's just there for vanity/epeen/etc. The quest rewards here are CLEARLY pve in nature, and need to be balanced around pve concerns, and raiding is indeed the largest part of pve concerns, as questing and heroics can be conquered with much lower levels of gear.

But let's play a simple mind experiment. What if they dropped PVP weapons better than the current season (just as the next season started) in these questlines, but decided they didn't need to drop weapons for say feral druids or ret pallies. Now first, I think we can all agree that the feral druids and ret pallies, especially those who liked to pvp, would be utterly irate, and they would be correct in feeling screwed (and like other PVP players were given an unfair advantage). Next, how would players that are really into pvp (a minority for sure, but a powerful majority of the players who make arena work) feel? I of course wouldn't care at all from a gameplay PoV (I think the recent admission that arena was the biggest mistake in the history of WoW was correct), but I'd still be supporting my fellow players in a totally different aspect of the game clamoring to have the problem solved.

Hey, let's take actual gameplay out of it all together. What if this new epic quest chain dropped only vanity mounts? Maybe UberDrakes of Awesomeness that flew at 300% speed. But shield tanks and mut rogues couldn't equip them. How would people react, and why do you think this would be fair?

Because they funny thing is, it would be the MOST fair of these three examples. It would have the least amount of impact on game play (I'm sure the hardcore mining/herbing community would be up in arms, but otherwise what would it matter?). Would you also support this epic questline? Why or why not? And given that, how can you sit there with a straight face and say that a new endgame weapon questline should be built the same way, and furthermore it should not be balanced around the people who actually are doing endgame PVE content???


I fully understand discourse and the question rising up if Blizzard hadn't put their foot down, because maybe they just over-looked it, or had future plans. But Blizzard has put the foot down, which is where the previous paragraph comes into play.

No they haven't. There's been what, three blue posts by non-developer moderators? And while I respect the person in question who made the posts, the attempted rationalization of a bad design has often been demonstrably false, if not downright insulting (hey, there's plenty of other options for people trying to gear up for ICC!). Furthermore, even if this isn't fixed now I ASSURE you it's not over, as it will just arise the next time they do this sort of thing, but the newly-screwed two or three specs making the will be backed by the people who see how ridiculous this is this time around.


Finally, why did you have to bring the epeen contest into it?

Because that's what a status symbol is. It doesn't have to offend you. I'd have gone back to do the TF questline if I could have arranged enough help, and it would totally have been an epeen endeavorer. Anytime people start comparing achievement lists it's the same thing. But the brilliance of Blizz's gratuitous epeen items (like rare pets, mounts, the introduction of achievement) is they don't intrude on and hamper PVP or PVE game play. This is not like that.

And if the only reason you can summon to justify the quest is that it's for the "masses" of players who apparently love PVE but hate raids to be able to collect items with higher ilvl out of a sense of completeness, then it's nothing but epeen as it won't really enable them to do anything they could do without it. And that's a bad design. Much better to give out pretty new mounts to everyone except shield tanks and mut rogues IMO.

TomHuxley
11-16-2009, 12:38 AM
BTW, you never once addressed the fact (which I brought up several times) that if they devs had really wanted to restrict the quest rewards to DPSers it would have been very easy to do so (use "on damaging hit" procs that provide DPS-related buffs (crit, ArPen, haste) rather than shared base stats). So easy that it took me all of 10 seconds to come up with it, and of course I was just lifting a design they'd already used several times this expansion specifically to separate DPS gear from say healer gear.

So no one, including the devs, has any right to sit around and say "well they're just for DPSers, it's not our fault some tanks and healers can use them too".

It's a BS excuse to a poorly designed/executed reward system, and is blatantly false. Honestly, they could still do it if one person took maybe an extra 6 hours to sit down and crunch the ilvl numbers to derive the procs. And then the weapons would also be more similar to their "sister" blade, which also had most of its ilvl used up by an armor and defense proc.

Thundercud
11-16-2009, 06:54 AM
Thanks for all the discussion on this issue Nessin and TomHuxley and others. I originally posted this topic just as a lark to see if others were mildly disappointed by the lack of tanking weapons from the QD quest line... And lets just say I was mildly surprised by the reactions.

This won't ruin the game for me and I won't boycott Blizz about it, but the decision to leave out certain specs does baffle me. Speaking of boycott... wouldn't it be interesting if those specs left out by the QD rewards boycotted the dungeons required to complete the questline? Hah!

I'm just kidding of course, I'll tank them even if there is no gear in them for me, but the idea that tanks (often in short supply for heroics) are excluded in this cool quest line is pretty bleh. But if all the other classes and specs that want a QD in the worst way started whining because no tanks would run them... The idea of a QQ storm on the Blizz forums, "I can't get my QD cause tanks won't ever run me! Blizz fails!!" does make me smile a little... Just on the inside mind you.

Mačl
11-16-2009, 07:32 AM
Trouble is, there are more tanks required for 5 mans than for raids. So a good portion of tanks won't see a raid because there isn't that much demand.
Yet tank itemization from 5mans is frankly apalling. The shield drop/craftable is 20-30 ilvls behind at the moment. There is a new one in the new non-hero 5man. I do see an issue here when all the raid geared DPS find that their 5man tanks can't hold aggro against them.

So yes, this thing is very short-sighted. A stats stick for hunters is there but no tanking one hander? No tanking shield in the heroic version of 3 5mans? How is that supposed to be good? I can forsee that I will run into serious threat problems. Yet there drop two tanking one handers from the 5man heroics. They will get disenchanted. A lot. Moving stuff like this into the questline would also have helped to unclutter the loot tables.

I have two tanking specs. Now what am I supposed to do with a twohander? It's not like I can devastate or shield slam with that.

Thundercud
11-16-2009, 07:56 AM
^ Interesting. I didn't even think to look at it that way. You're right though.

Airowird
11-16-2009, 08:19 AM
Let's see...because there has never, EVER been an epic endgame questline with the rewards done like this before?I'm just gonna reply to this specific statement and say:

Quests - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?quests&filter=ty=62;cr=29:27:23:23;crs=2:2:4:1;crv=0:0:4: 0)

Lots of raid quests where not every class/spec will find something useful.
Oh, and head of onyxia is not included there, should ask Feral tanks what they want as a reward there, or maybe any mail/plate caster? or Plate DPS?

Stymie
11-16-2009, 08:24 AM
My arrogance? Oh, I'll admit I'm arrogant, but regardless of what YOU want, Blizzard has actually came out (as part of this incident) and stated that they aren't in the business of providing gear to every single spec and class combo with regards to quest rewards. Its disturbing that you think that, considering there are pieces you can't get via questing at all in WotLK (notably, a tank trinket).

See, here's the problem I have with that statement, and Bomark's reply in general. They are already doing just that -- catering to most class/spec combos. Don't you find it slightly hypocritical that Blizzard would say "We don't feel the need to have a reward for every spec and class combination", and then immediately follow that up with "We decided to change the spell mace from MP5 to haste so as to benefit more spec / class combos."

So, going into this whole debacle, there were essentially five specs out of 30 left in the dark:

Mutilate Rogues
Prot Warriors / Paladins
Boomkin
Shadow Priests

Blizzard says, too bad, we aren't aiming to give everyone a reward. Wait, we should make a change. Here you go, Boomkin and Shadow Priests. So now you're left with two setups that do not have a reward. So if they're not going to aim to cater to everyone, why the change to cater to Boomkin and Shadow Priests?

Why are there so many 2her rewards? Why an Agi 2her designed only for hunters, and a 2h mace designed only for ferals / possibly DK tanks? Hunters could Main-Hand the 1h agi sword in a DW setup, and Druids / DKs could use a number of the other weapons.

The line "We don't intend to cater to everyone" applies when you are perhaps refering to covering 40% of class / spec combos. Maybe it can apply when you're covering 70% and leave it there. However, when you're already covering 80% of combos, and then make a change so that you're covering ~90%, it becomes harder to justify.

Airowird
11-16-2009, 12:42 PM
There are also about what, 4-5 specs that aren't catered to do PvE DPS?

Gendrake
11-16-2009, 11:14 PM
By the way, just thought I'd say as a DK who likes to DW tank that you can add another spec to the list of tanks missing out on an ideal weapon. Yeah, the 1hander dps sword could work for a main hand threat stick (though without any expertise it's not even that attractive), but I'm finding attaining a good tank-sword difficult (yay rng!) and was really looking forward to a "guaranteed" one from this quest line.

Xianth
11-17-2009, 02:13 AM
By the way, just thought I'd say as a DK who likes to DW tank that you can add another spec to the list of tanks missing out on an ideal weapon. Yeah, the 1hander dps sword could work for a main hand threat stick (though without any expertise it's not even that attractive), but I'm finding attaining a good tank-sword difficult (yay rng!) and was really looking forward to a "guaranteed" one from this quest line.


Well, as far as one handed tanking weapons go the first boss in ICC 10 man drops one so it'll be pretty easy to get one anyway.

Mačl
11-17-2009, 02:30 AM
Well, as far as one handed tanking weapons go the first boss in ICC 10 man drops one so it'll be pretty easy to get one anyway.
...if you are a tank that isn't restricted to 5mans for whatever reason. Run a 5 man PUG and take a look at what the tanks have.
You'll see the turkey carver and the craftable/CoT shield. A lot. Coupled with iLVL 226/332 gear obtained by badges. Since these tanks only get 332 gear by doing daily heroics and the odd Archavon/Onyxia PUG it is time to break out an extra portion of respect because these people worked really hard for their gear. On a daily basis.

There are only oh so many tanks required in raids. You need quite a bit more for 5mans. Many aspiring tanks simply gave up because they had no chance of getting a tanking raidslot. Many are twinks. If you keep your equipment up to scratch with 2 pieces T8 and 2 pieces T9 on a twink without any raiding then you show real commitment.

10mans are NOT easily attainable. My warrior for instance neither has the gear nor the experience to raid DPS hoping to pick up whatever tanking leftovers. I wouldn't have the time to find a second raid since my main commitment is my priest. Quel'delar and a nice tanking shield in the 5man heroics would have been a godsend. Now I don't know if I'll pull the threat values overgeared DPS does.

Just remember this when you are one tank shy of a 5man heroics run.

Xianth
11-17-2009, 04:54 AM
...if you are a tank that isn't restricted to 5mans for whatever reason. Run a 5 man PUG and take a look at what the tanks have.
You'll see the turkey carver and the craftable/CoT shield. A lot. Coupled with iLVL 226/332 gear obtained by badges. Since these tanks only get 332 gear by doing daily heroics and the odd Archavon/Onyxia PUG it is time to break out an extra portion of respect because these people worked really hard for their gear. On a daily basis.

There are only oh so many tanks required in raids. You need quite a bit more for 5mans. Many aspiring tanks simply gave up because they had no chance of getting a tanking raidslot. Many are twinks. If you keep your equipment up to scratch with 2 pieces T8 and 2 pieces T9 on a twink without any raiding then you show real commitment.

10mans are NOT easily attainable. My warrior for instance neither has the gear nor the experience to raid DPS hoping to pick up whatever tanking leftovers. I wouldn't have the time to find a second raid since my main commitment is my priest. Quel'delar and a nice tanking shield in the 5man heroics would have been a godsend. Now I don't know if I'll pull the threat values overgeared DPS does.

Just remember this when you are one tank shy of a 5man heroics run.

For starters there is both a shield and weapon dropping in the new 5 man and I'm not too sure about saying 10 man are not attainable A 5 man needs one tank one healer, a 10 man toc needs 2 tanks two healers. That's just two heroic groups lumped together and takes about as much time as two heroics.

Of course, ICC won't be the same deal but marrowgar is one of the daily raid quests so there will be millions of people forming 10 man pugs just to kill him anyway. Secondly, an axe drops in the new 5 man too.

Oh, and generating good threat has very little to do with having a high dps weapon.

TomHuxley
11-17-2009, 08:42 AM
I'm just gonna reply to this specific statement and say:

Quests - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?quests&filter=ty=62;cr=29:27:23:23;crs=2:2:4:1;crv=0:0:4: 0)

Lots of raid quests where not every class/spec will find something useful.
Oh, and head of onyxia is not included there, should ask Feral tanks what they want as a reward there, or maybe any mail/plate caster? or Plate DPS?

Again, this was my point. Read through the quests you linked to on wowhead, none of these covered 90-95% of PVE specs. The best ones covered a couple, the intermediate ones covered maybe a third or so. Generally, the better the rewards level the narrower the scope of specs has been (up to legendaries, which sometimes have only benefitted one or two classes (e.g. the legendary bow from SWP).

Maybe some of you are having trouble with the important shades of gray here, but there's a huge difference between having a quest (and a raid quest at that) that rewards 30% of PVE specs (leaving the majority of players waiting for the next one) or one that rewards 90% of the specs, including ones that are in direct competition for raid slots.

It's this shifting of the rewards to be almost all inclusive but not quite that creates the problems. If the rewards really were just for DPS specs (very easy to do) or just for healers, or just for tanks, or just for frost mages, or whatever, it would be fine. No one would be complaining.

If the developers had even come out with a reasonable answer as to why they designed it this way perhaps the outrage would have been limited to people who just want their leet lootz. But they didn't, they sat there with a straight face and said it was for DPS (when it could have been but instead they provided generalized weapons that benefit healers and half the tanks), they said there were plenty of "other options" when there is no other way to get equivalent weapons for anyone but hardcore 25 man raiders prior to ICC, and they said they didn't feel it necessary to cover all specs while hurriedly altering one of the caster weapons to include more specs (and even benefitting some healers more).

It was a poor decision from the get-go to decide to cover so may PVE specs while excluding so few, and negative reactions to the bad quest rewards design was made worse by providing disingenuous responses that either miss the point entirely or are blatantly false (and sometimes contradict their own actions). The people getting shafted on this have every right to be upset, and should continue to voice their objections to either fix this before it goes live, or make it obvious that this will not be a design that is tolerated in future epic quest lines.

TomHuxley
11-17-2009, 08:53 AM
For starters there is both a shield and weapon dropping in the new 5 man...

Which would be relevant if the quest line weapons were the same level as the new 5 mans. Since instead they are higher, it's like saying it doesn't matter because people can run CoS and get the ilvl 200 shield.


Oh, and generating good threat has very little to do with having a high dps weapon.

If you are pressing the wrong buttons, or don't know how to stack your stats for high agro situations, then I agree that improving your gameplay yields a much larger benefit than a weapon upgrade. Oh, BTW this is equally true for DPS. Knowing your rotation and how to gear will benefit you far more than upgrading your weapon.

And if you ARE already gearing and using the appropriate threat rotation/priority then whether you like it or not upgrading your weapon is the most significant way to improve your threat, as simply adding a few extra points of strength on a new chest is not going to have nearly the benefit of getting a higher DPS range on your new weapon.

Gendrake
11-17-2009, 09:50 AM
What I don't understand is why people are opposed to Blizzard dropping a tanking mace or sword into the quest rewards. It's not as though they would have to get rid of one of the existing rewards to do so. The only thing adding a tank reward would do is give more tanks good gear, which is never a bad thing in my opinion.

Bladesong
11-17-2009, 12:03 PM
What I don't understand is why people are opposed to Blizzard dropping a tanking mace or sword into the quest rewards.

To be fair, I haven't seen anyone say that they are opposed to a tanking weapon, just that it's not necessary. Frankly, if you have been running 5 and 10 man content (especially in PuGs), tank weapons have always been hard to come by. If you are still raiding heroics or old ten mans (time issues or leveling an alt) then the current weapons should be fine for that.

I agree that it would have been easy to add a tank weapon and I understand TomHuxley's point about 30% vs. 90%. In other words, I strongly sympathize with the Want argument, but haven't yet seen a good Need argument.

Thundercud
11-17-2009, 01:07 PM
I agree that it would have been easy to add a tank weapon and I understand TomHuxley's point about 30% vs. 90%. In other words, I strongly sympathize with the Want argument, but haven't yet seen a good Need argument.

That's just silly... By that logic we should be yelling at Blizzard to get rid of all the QD quest rewards because no one "needs" them. I would argue that tanks "need" more options to upgrade their weapons than dps classes do. Here are a few quick links to show how wide the gap is.

Level 80 epic weapons with defense (http://www.wowhead.com/?items=2&filter=qu=4;minrl=80;maxrl=80;cr=42;crs=1;crv=0) = 21
Level 80 epic weapons without defense (http://www.wowhead.com/?items=2&filter=qu=4;minrl=80;maxrl=80;cr=42;crs=4;crv=0) = 516

*Edit* Fixed the links... html is hard. :P

TomHuxley
11-17-2009, 02:34 PM
I agree that it would have been easy to add a tank weapon and I understand TomHuxley's point about 30% vs. 90%. In other words, I strongly sympathize with the Want argument, but haven't yet seen a good Need argument.

Ok, I will agree with bladesong in that they hyperbole flies a bit (not excluding myself) when using terms like "need". But I also agree that really none of us "need" any of this. As the guild who down'd yogg in ilvl 200 blues show, with skill and practice we could do a lot more content than most of us do with lesser gear.

That said, gear is the carrot on the other side of the "wiping sucks" stick to succeed, and is part of what is "fun" for many (I would assume most) players. Rewards are a necessary part of this fun, so it still seems like poor design that needs to be changed. Furthermore, the high degree of specs that can be rewarded makes this feel exclusionary...that probably isn't the intent, but it's pretty much unavoidable when 90%+ of the specs out there can get rewarded. And from a gameplay/design point of view, if the developers don't realize this than they "need" to be informed of it, as it's going to hamper future attempts and will generally lead to better quest designs in the future.

Bladesong
11-17-2009, 02:44 PM
That's just silly... By that logic we should be yelling at Blizzard to get rid of all the quest rewards because no one "needs" them. I would argue that tanks "need" more weapon upgrade options while dps do not "need" still more weapon options.Actually, your comment is silly :p. I clearly stated that I strongly sympathize with wanting to add a tank weapon to the quest line (my alt warrior tank still has Peacekeeper Blade), nowhere did I state that dps "needed" another weapon and you are engaging in a bit of hyperbole with your remark about removing all quest rewards.

I think my disconnect on this whole discussion is that I don't see anything wrong with saying "I would like "X" because it would be cool" and so I don't see why people feel that they have to turn it into some dire need in order for it to be a legitimate request.

@ TomHuxley - I love getting new loot, I think that Pally/Warrior weapons have been hard to come by for the whole expansion and I think it's vital that we give feedback to the devs. My point is that I think we have a better chance of getting what we want if we are honest about why we want it and friendly when we give feedback. It will help to separate us from the angry hordes on the wow forums :D

Airowird
11-17-2009, 03:16 PM
I do agree that adding in a tanking weapon (preferably Axe, for my Orc Warrior :P) could be ... useful for lack of better description, but it is neither really needed, nor useless. Yay for shades of grey!!
My previous statement was only to show that they HAVE done questlines similar to this where not every class/spec received something useful, as opposed to what TomHuxley seemed to imply in the part I quoted.

In the end, we can live without, although it would've been a nice jest towards tanks, especially since people making statements like "people wouldn't notice it if you swapped to a DPS weapon" just make me wonna grab that DPS weapon and do nasty things with it involving that persons face. Oh, and as a Healer I WILL notice if you swap to your Berserking enchanted 0 Stamina weapon, just so you know :P

TomHuxley
11-17-2009, 03:22 PM
I think that Pally/Warrior weapons have been hard to come by for the whole expansion and I think it's vital that we give feedback to the devs. My point is that I think we have a better chance of getting what we want if we are honest about why we want it and friendly when we give feedback. It will help to separate us from the angry hordes on the wow forums :D

Indeed, using thunderclud's wowhead numbers then tank 1Hs make up 3.4% of level 80 epic weapons. Since prot pallies and warriors are 2/30 (6.67%) of the specs, that seems a bit low. There may be other ways to look at it (i.e. if you're the tank in a guild run then it will only be rolled on by tanks) but even then, tanks make up 20% (ten mans) or 12% (25 mans) of a normal raid. Now...that 3.4% also includes crafteds and other drops, so I don't pretend to know what the best way to balance this would be (and it would matter more at a per-tier point than the aggregate number of all level 80 weapons) but at least on first blush the numbers seem to support the fact that tank weapons are not terribly common.

Xatheria
11-17-2009, 07:11 PM
Indeed, using thunderclud's wowhead numbers then tank 1Hs make up 3.4% of level 80 epic weapons. Since prot pallies and warriors are 2/30 (6.67%) of the specs, that seems a bit low. There may be other ways to look at it (i.e. if you're the tank in a guild run then it will only be rolled on by tanks) but even then, tanks make up 20% (ten mans) or 12% (25 mans) of a normal raid. Now...that 3.4% also includes crafteds and other drops, so I don't pretend to know what the best way to balance this would be (and it would matter more at a per-tier point than the aggregate number of all level 80 weapons) but at least on first blush the numbers seem to support the fact that tank weapons are not terribly common.

by the way tom did you get banned today your thread is gone wondering since I got a one week ban slapped on me for posting in one of the more recent qd threads today apparently the general trolling population doesn't like logic

TomHuxley
11-17-2009, 11:41 PM
Not only did I not get a ban, I just posted again in the thread moments ago (because it doesn't have ongoing flaming it slips off the front page more often...and I don't post again unless there is something worth responding to).

I didn't see the threads that got deleted/banned, so I can't comment on the differences, but I've been very careful not to exceed the posting rules and to not respond to flame bait. I'm not trying to imply you did, I simply didn't see what caused it so I can't have an opinion.

Mačl
11-18-2009, 01:35 AM
My experience with Blizz is that they see the QQ but hardly quickly react to it. Once a decision is made they tend to stick to it for a while. Even if just to save face.

Andronikus
11-18-2009, 02:07 AM
My experiance of all tanking loot.... although TOC has been kind to me and the other tanks in my guild a LOT (gear wise, not weapon).... is that Blizz and the RNG screw over tanks in instances and raids.

If we got gear as quick or as easy as DPS/healers then many tanks would want to start to run as DPS and then less 5 mans and 10/25 man raids get done. Would i still be running TOC 10 if i did not need, yes NEED, the sword from the last boss? Most likely i would cos i love tanking... but many once fully geared will want to start raiding as DPS.

By not giving us a tanking weapon from the QD quest they ensure that we run the 5 man heroic for the one in there.

By not giving a tanking weapon in toc25 they ensure that us tanks run TOC 10.

Maybe i'm wrong... maybe i'm just bitter that i still have a weapon from the welfare epic shop thats TOC5. Maybe i'm pissed i took 32 runs to get the Suneater and another 32 runs to get the Red Sword of Courage. (not including failed runs cos muppets can't handle collecting a few spears and throwing them at the right time while avoiding some smoke on the ground...)

And Blizz saying that it don't matter for a tank what weapon they use as long as they are def capped is shocking.

/end rant

Rage filled tank is rage filled.

Xianth
11-18-2009, 05:44 AM
Which would be relevant if the quest line weapons were the same level as the new 5 mans. Since instead they are higher, it's like saying it doesn't matter because people can run CoS and get the ilvl 200 shield.

But the new 5 man stuff is good enough for entry level which is the whole point of it, a 232 wepon is more than sufficient to start ICC or do anything below. Hell, even I will be going into ICC with a 232 weapon. The shield is 219 which is a bit lower but it still a big upgrade over the other non-raid choices available and is still mroe than good enough to be used for entry level ICC too. Besides, this thread is about the weapons and it seems to me more like a case of people being pissed off they're not getting an awesome, easy 251 weapon like a bunch of other classes more than anything else but again, you can roll into the weekly 10 man raid quest for marrowgar and pick up a 251 tank weapon too.



If you are pressing the wrong buttons, or don't know how to stack your stats for high agro situations, then I agree that improving your gameplay yields a much larger benefit than a weapon upgrade. Oh, BTW this is equally true for DPS. Knowing your rotation and how to gear will benefit you far more than upgrading your weapon.


And if you ARE already gearing and using the appropriate threat rotation/priority then whether you like it or not upgrading your weapon is the most significant way to improve your threat, as simply adding a few extra points of strength on a new chest is not going to have nearly the benefit of getting a higher DPS range on your new weapon.

Even with a weapon that has "shit" DPS, if you are doing and gearing everything right then you won't have any threat problems. If you are doing all that and are losing aggro, an extra 40 DPS on a weapon is not going to make you suddenly be an aggro god. For example, adding a few more points of expertise/hit will make more of a difference, or threat glyphing, etc. etc. 40 dps is 60 damage on an auto swing and 60 damage on a devastate which probably equiates to about 150-200 TPS, if that.

Thundercud
11-18-2009, 06:13 AM
Actually, your comment is silly :p.

You are welcome to your opinion and I'll admit you do have a point about hyperbole flying around... But in all fairness I wasn't the one who mentioned tanks "need"ing new weapons in the first place. Furthermore, I backed up my reversal of your argument with evidence... Nothing "silly" about that. :)

TomHuxley interpreted the data exactly right. I'm not crying about not getting a tank weapon from QD (look back at all my posts if you don't believe that) but I will ask if the decision makes any sense to others since it doesn't make any sense to me.

Is this a BIG DEAL? No. I'll keep using my iLevel 232 Titanguard until I get something better. And when I get something better it'll be awesome since I've had to wait for 3 months. :eek:

Thanks to all of you for respectfully contributing to a lively discussion. :D

Xatheria
11-18-2009, 06:04 PM
Not only did I not get a ban, I just posted again in the thread moments ago (because it doesn't have ongoing flaming it slips off the front page more often...and I don't post again unless there is something worth responding to).

I didn't see the threads that got deleted/banned, so I can't comment on the differences, but I've been very careful not to exceed the posting rules and to not respond to flame bait. I'm not trying to imply you did, I simply didn't see what caused it so I can't have an opinion.

I get the feeling that at first it was the rampant flaming by opposed parties to the idea of tank getting a qd though the fact that they weren't banned while most of those in favor of the idea were does not lend credence to that possibility.

By the way did you delete the post I was searching for it to see if there were any new replies and I couldn't find it anymore just your posts in capped threads.

TomHuxley
11-19-2009, 09:39 AM
But the new 5 man stuff is good enough for entry level which is the whole point of it, a 232 wepon is more than sufficient to start ICC or do anything below. Hell, even I will be going into ICC with a 232 weapon.

Right. They are good enough for anyone of any spec, but they aren't as good as the quest rewards. The point is that if you're going to make a quest line that rewards hitherto unattainable gear (to everyone not in ToGC25) then you need to strike a better balance with the quest rewards. Either be a bit more restrictive (i.e. weapons that truly only DPS, or only healers, or only tanks want...or perhaps all melee or casters) or give them to everyone. It's just not feasible to create a quest line where 90% of the specs are winners and 10% are losers and not have it feel like someone is being picked on.

And this would be true even if there were ilvl 251 shields on the quest line but no weapons that DK tanks could use. The problem is not that I don't personally get a wepaon, but that it's unavoidable that you're going to create hard feelings and a sense of (unintended) "being singled out" with players when you reward such a high percentage and then still leave a very small slice of losers. That's the issue, IMO. (I will also head into ICC with an ilvl 232 weapon...and shield...and it's not a big deal, I'll get an new weapon in ICC shortly unless RNG hates me).


Besides, this thread is about the weapons and it seems to me more like a case of people being pissed off they're not getting an awesome, easy 251 weapon like a bunch of other classes more than anything else but again, you can roll into the weekly 10 man raid quest for marrowgar and pick up a 251 tank weapon too.

I'm sure some people are just taking this personally...but that's sort of my larger point...you can't create quest rewards (when the rewards really matter...i.e. when it's the best available to most players in the game) that has a winner/loser ratio like this. You need to break it down some other way, divide it better by role (tanks/dps/heals), reward fewer specs, or just go ahead and make it include everyone. Or, finally, you could devalue the rewards somewhat (e.g. don't push the quest live until all the bosses are unlocked in ICC, make them lower level gear, etc) which would generally reduce the "getting screwed" feeling by the very small slice of players left out in the cold.


Even with a weapon that has "shit" DPS, if you are doing and gearing everything right then you won't have any threat problems. If you are doing all that and are losing aggro, an extra 40 DPS on a weapon is not going to make you suddenly be an aggro god. For example, adding a few more points of expertise/hit will make more of a difference, or threat glyphing, etc. etc. 40 dps is 60 damage on an auto swing and 60 damage on a devastate which probably equiates to about 150-200 TPS, if that.

This is completely beside the point. A warlock with Ilvl 245 gear that swaps between a Naxx 25 weapon and his ToC 25 weapon isn't going to see a giant change either when they swap weapons. The point is THERE WILL be a change in both cases (actually, it will be a bit more noticeable on the melee end). Of course we're looking at just a couple hundred TPS (assuming you are starting with a ToC 10 weapon), but of course the warlock is only going to be seeing a DPS increase of 50 or so (give or take). The point is they're equivalent upgrades, and pretending like it matters more for the warlock than the tank is factually wrong.

And this part of the discussion continues to be besides the point, as the devs could have made the weapons truly DPS only, but they failed to do so, meaning that half the tanks will get the upgrade too, as well as healers. The point really isn't whether or not tanks need loot lovin' too, but that the quest rewards need to be more intelligently designed to balance the winners and losers in a better way.

TomHuxley
11-19-2009, 09:43 AM
By the way did you delete the post I was searching for it to see if there were any new replies and I couldn't find it anymore just your posts in capped threads.

Nope, it's gone now. I did not receive any punitive response, and I didn't go back to see how the thread continued, so I don't know if it devolved into pointless QQ and thread crapping or what. I trust it was seen by some of the people who need to see it, and it was allowed to stay up for over 24 hours, so I guess it served its purpose.

TomHuxley
11-19-2009, 09:54 AM
BTW, did anyone note that there will be a gate mechanism in the ICC wings? I note this because the problematic presence of an epic questline that rewards 90% of the specs with weapons that are higher level than anything previously available (outside of ToGC 25) only gets compounded when the number of actually bosses available to drop loot in ICC will be 4 for the first month.

Now in practice I understand that the 10 man version drops some tank goodies in that first wing...not sure about daggers. But the point remains that the gated release makes the quest rewards more valuable rather than less (i.e. it reduces the "options" available for alternate gear). Seriously, this should have been thought through better. Not the gaited wings, that seems like a good idea, but given the very public release and lore of Que'delar (social importance), the quality of the rewards (higher than the vast majority of players can get access to), the limiting of alternative PVE gear (gaiting the wings in ICC), it's just incomprehensible to me that no one realized that the design of the Que'Delar quest rewards was extremely poorly thought out.

Make them restricted to one role (DPS...and include dagger rogues) or make them available to all specs (or depreciate the rewards themselves...but I can understand why people don't want this).

What's interesting to me is you can see the negative impact this is having even on players who will get rewarded; the "us vs. them" mentality has lead to outrageous whining on the official forums by the people who are getting quest rewards, as if the 10% of losing specs just need to stfu lest they somehow cost resto shammies of their beloved "DPS" caster quest reward. It's obviously being seen by many (though hardly all) as the leg up it is, and they don't want it extended to any other classes and they don't want to risk losing an upgrade that's only on the PTRs.

Xatheria
11-19-2009, 11:27 AM
Nope, it's gone now. I did not receive any punitive response, and I didn't go back to see how the thread continued, so I don't know if it devolved into pointless QQ and thread crapping or what. I trust it was seen by some of the people who need to see it, and it was allowed to stay up for over 24 hours, so I guess it served its purpose.

I checked it last night there really wasn't flaming seems they are purging all threads talking about qd each night, so boring to be done with coding for the day and not able to post on the wow forums.

I think at this point blizzard is just going to refuse they made a mistake to use a more extreme example how long was cthun immortal again heh or dk chain cds through all of uld they are notoriously slow to fix things.

The one thing that annoys me is they can take the time to put an annoying Mr. T mohawk grenade in game and cant just put a tanking sword and mut dagger in reusing skins which would take all of 10 mins and make the quest perfect essentially.

Xianth
11-20-2009, 05:15 AM
Right. They are good enough for anyone of any spec, but they aren't as good as the quest rewards. The point is that if you're going to make a quest line that rewards hitherto unattainable gear (to everyone not in ToGC25) then you need to strike a better balance with the quest rewards. Either be a bit more restrictive (i.e. weapons that truly only DPS, or only healers, or only tanks want...or perhaps all melee or casters) or give them to everyone. It's just not feasible to create a quest line where 90% of the specs are winners and 10% are losers and not have it feel like someone is being picked on.

And this would be true even if there were ilvl 251 shields on the quest line but no weapons that DK tanks could use. The problem is not that I don't personally get a wepaon, but that it's unavoidable that you're going to create hard feelings and a sense of (unintended) "being singled out" with players when you reward such a high percentage and then still leave a very small slice of losers. That's the issue, IMO. (I will also head into ICC with an ilvl 232 weapon...and shield...and it's not a big deal, I'll get an new weapon in ICC shortly unless RNG hates me).

You seem to be forgetting the points I've already made. You talk about about unattainable gear "except to those in togc25" but there's already a 251 weapon available from the first boss in ICC 10 who ALSO is part of the weekly raid quest which will be pugged till the cows come home. If you don't raid ANYTHING at all, so much that you wouldnt even raid the raid weekly quest and/or do the easiest boss of the new content, then why exactly do you need a 251 weapon? You certainly don't need it for heroics, and that's ignoring the fact there are TWO ilevel 232 weapons available in the new 5 man. Sure, it would be nice, and I'm not saying I don't want a tank version of Quel'delar (because that would be estupid) and I totally concur that it seems silly that the only thing that isn't covered by Quel'delar is a tanking 1 hander, but it's not some world ending catasrophe that there isn't one, even for people who don't raid regularly/at all.



I'm sure some people are just taking this personally...but that's sort of my larger point...you can't create quest rewards (when the rewards really matter...i.e. when it's the best available to most players in the game) that has a winner/loser ratio like this. You need to break it down some other way, divide it better by role (tanks/dps/heals), reward fewer specs, or just go ahead and make it include everyone. Or, finally, you could devalue the rewards somewhat (e.g. don't push the quest live until all the bosses are unlocked in ICC, make them lower level gear, etc) which would generally reduce the "getting screwed" feeling by the very small slice of players left out in the cold.


Then people need a reality check, this is a game and not having a quest reward weapon isn't gonna prevent you from enjoying the game or give you cancer IRL. Not getting a nice reward isn't getting screwed; a reward is a bonus, an extra, and that's all it is, a little extra bit of gear and it wont make you suddenly an amazing tank able to put out awesome aggro or anything like that. . Blizzard doesn't have some personal vendetta against tanks either. It's all just bollocks strung out by people upset that they don't have easy access to a big dick extension.



This is completely beside the point. A warlock with Ilvl 245 gear that swaps between a Naxx 25 weapon and his ToC 25 weapon isn't going to see a giant change either when they swap weapons. The point is THERE WILL be a change in both cases (actually, it will be a bit more noticeable on the melee end). Of course we're looking at just a couple hundred TPS (assuming you are starting with a ToC 10 weapon), but of course the warlock is only going to be seeing a DPS increase of 50 or so (give or take). The point is they're equivalent upgrades, and pretending like it matters more for the warlock than the tank is factually wrong.


But your comparison is a complete fallacy because you are comparing a tank to a DPS class which are two massively different roles who's "contibution" to success is measured in completely different ways. A DPSer will always gain from increasing every aspect of their gear (hence all DPSers having a quel'delar) because more DPS will always make a fight/instance quicker by having more DPS. Not only that, a lock probably gains what, 200 spellpower?, from using quel'delar over the dagger from ToC5H (for the sake keeping continuity in the 5 man comparison). that's a signifcant amount of DPS and probably gives them a 5-8% spell damage boost in gear for that level which IS significant AND provides linear gains to their ability to function in their role. On the other hand, A tank just needs to do enough threat and be able to survive. the key word here is "enough"; if you do 6000 TPS with a crap weapon and 6200 with Quel'delar but can easily hold aggro in both situations then the gain from the new weapon doesn't matter one little bit. If you hold suffcient aggro then any extra TPS is utter pointless, it provides no benefit to the fight at all. If you occasionally struggle for aggro then 200 more TPS doesn't mean you are going to hold aggro a lot more, you'll still be losing it just as regularly which means elsewhere there are issues. The rest of your gear choices and what you are doing are what's important in threat generating and it's not something that can be fixed by a 251 weapon dropping into your lap.




And this part of the discussion continues to be besides the point, as the devs could have made the weapons truly DPS only, but they failed to do so, meaning that half the tanks will get the upgrade too, as well as healers. The point really isn't whether or not tanks need loot lovin' too, but that the quest rewards need to be more intelligently designed to balance the winners and losers in a better way.

As I've just mentioned previously, of course it's a bit silly that they've catered for nearly every class & spec but it's not a big deal. It's all just people being annoyed that they havn't got an easy weapon available to them rather than it haing any actual affect on the balance of the game or their ability to function in their classes role.

Astemus
11-20-2009, 06:44 AM
Has anyone considered that the item to start the quest may be as rare as the original quel'serrar book? It's possible you may get only one or two ever if your guild runs the new 5 mans regularly. And if that's the case, good luck trying to get it in a pug, since it's not BOP.

In that case, it'll hardly be "free 251 weapons for everyone except me".

Also, there are tank rewards, druids and DKs will get nice weapon upgrades to tank with. So really, it's only warrior and paladin tanks being left out. And it's about time. Those two specs have their own weapons that noone else can roll on. DK and Druid tanks have been fighting against DPS for their weapons for a long time.

Thundercud
11-20-2009, 07:10 AM
If you don't raid ANYTHING at all, so much that you wouldnt even raid the raid weekly quest and/or do the easiest boss of the new content, then why exactly do you need a 251 weapon? You certainly don't need it for heroics, and that's ignoring the fact there are TWO ilevel 232 weapons available in the new 5 man. Sure, it would be nice, and I'm not saying I don't want a tank version of Quel'delar (because that would be estupid) and I totally concur that it seems silly that the only thing that isn't covered by Quel'delar is a tanking 1 hander, but it's not some world ending catasrophe that there isn't one, even for people who don't raid regularly/at all.

No one is seriously arguing that this is serious business. TomHuxley, myself, others and even... you... have admitted that this is about a decision by Blizzard that doesn't make sense. Good. So we agree. Moving on.


Not getting a nice reward isn't getting screwed; a reward is a bonus, an extra, and that's all it is, a little extra bit of gear and it wont make you suddenly an amazing tank able to put out awesome aggro or anything like that. Blizzard doesn't have some personal vendetta against tanks either.

Are you defending Blizzard here or just arguing for argument's sake? When 95% of the player base gets a toy... and 5% doesn't... the 5% feel a bit screwed. Makes sense to me. Again, no one here is crying about it... arguing passionately perhaps, but not crying. Moving on again.


...you are comparing a tank to a DPS class which are two massively different roles who's "contibution" to success is measured in completely different ways. A DPSer will always gain from increasing every aspect of their gear (hence all DPSers having a quel'delar) because more DPS will always make a fight/instance quicker by having more DPS.

How fast is an instance run if all the dps has to hold back because the tank can't keep up on threat? Currently this is not a problem, but when every dps that can run heroics gets a 251 weapon, it might get a bit harder for tanks to keep aggro.


A tank just needs to do enough threat and be able to survive. the key word here is "enough"; if you do 6000 TPS with a crap weapon and 6200 with Quel'delar but can easily hold aggro in both situations then the gain from the new weapon doesn't matter one little bit. If you hold suffcient aggro then any extra TPS is utter pointless, it provides no benefit to the fight at all.

This is a moot point since there is no magic number of "enough" threat and every tank tries to put out as much threat as they can so that dps can go all out. Basically, as a tank I have two goals in descending priority. 1) Get enough gear, gems and enchants to survive the content I will tank and once I can survive; 2) boost my dps and threat as much as possible! Speaking for myself (other tanks can chime in here as well :)) I like a big upgrade to my chest or belt... but I LOVE a new shield or weapon! Why is that? For the same reason any dps cares most for their weapon... Because it's the active extension of your will. I don't slam the boss in the face with my leg armor, but my shield in one hand... and my weapon in the other deliver my challenge to that 30 foot tall boss!

(dramatization incoming) In the brief moments between the GCD time seems to stop... Hey you. Yeah you way up there. Ignore all these pesky mages and rogues. Those fireballs and ruptures hurt don't they! They don't matter. You want me and me alone! Hit me with all you've got and I'll do the same. I won't just hide behind this shield, I'll turn it and everything in my power against you as a weapon. Do your worst! (/stage bow)

Weapons are just as important to tanks as they are to other classes, psychologically if not empirically and you are ignoring the fact that a tank weapon doesn't just contribute weapon dps, it also contributes stats that help us do our job better... In a linear fashion. The fact that our "success" is based on a composite of our ability to survive and our ability to push out dps/tps doesn't make us fundamentally any different than any other class... Better gear is better. Period. And since we've established that no loot would have to be taken from any other class to give tanks a reward... What's the problem?


As I've just mentioned previously, of course it's a bit silly that they've catered for nearly every class & spec but it's not a big deal. It's all just people being annoyed that they havn't got an easy weapon available to them rather than it haing any actual affect on the balance of the game or their ability to function in their classes role.

Yep. Once again we agree... it's not a big deal. I don't think even the most vocal of the posters here has said it is a "big deal". Bad idea, poorly thought out, lacking common sense, but not a game breaker. Besides, it gives us something to argue about in the meantime and that can only be a good thing. :p

Airowird
11-20-2009, 09:01 AM
Not getting a nice reward isn't getting screwed; a reward is a bonus, an extra, and that's all it isIt's not that Shamans are lacking, it's just that every other class is currently overpowered.

If I tank everything with 2 friends, a DPS and a healer, they will gain something from this quest and I won't. Either Blizzard skrewed me over for whatever reason possibly imaginable, or they 'rewarded' the other 2 more than me for exactly the same reason.

In the end, it all boils down to "everyone except Warrior/Paladin tanks get a reward". If you're one of those 2, you probably feel this as Blizz hate (note: they don't hate you), as any other class you'll probably feel greatly rewarded for picking Blizzards favourite class (note: they don't love you more).
Not that I mind, my Warrior is just an alt and I will be happily picking up a crit/haste weapon with my resto shaman, but I do support warriors/paladins in this case.
The ONLY counter-argument I've ever heard so far was from that little voice in my head (well, the third one from the left atleast, when counting when I've had atleast 3 beers and no more than 2) who said; Yeah, but you got your LOLLORE moment with the revamps of QS, all the rest is getting QD, which is it's sister blade.

Bladesong
11-20-2009, 11:26 AM
So the TL/DR for this entire discussion:

We are in complete agreement that it would be nice to have a Warrior/Paladin weapon reward :)

We are in stark disagreement on whether or not the lack of said weapon constitutes being "screwed" :(

TomHuxley
11-20-2009, 12:27 PM
You seem to be forgetting the points I've already made. You talk about about unattainable gear "except to those in togc25" but there's already a 251 weapon available from the first boss in ICC 10 who ALSO is part of the weekly raid quest which will be pugged till the cows come home.

Yeah, sorry, not the same thing. A reward available to raiders that they can pursue outside of a raid (e.g on their own time, while pugging, whatever) is NOT the same, unless there are no DPS weapons at all on the first few bosses? Oh, and I note there's not dagger from Morrogar...


Sure, it would be nice, and I'm not saying I don't want a tank version of Quel'delar (because that would be estupid) and I totally concur that it seems silly that the only thing that isn't covered by Quel'delar is a tanking 1 hander, but it's not some world ending catasrophe that there isn't one, even for people who don't raid regularly/at all.

Yeah, we're all in violent agreement here. No one's threatening to boycott 5 mans, quit the game, etc. The point is it's bad game design and it should be changed, if not now then in the future.


Then people need a reality check, this is a game and not having a quest reward weapon isn't gonna prevent you from enjoying the game or give you cancer IRL.

You're arguing against a strawman, no one here believes that. I realize that some of the more exaggerated posters on the official forums say things along those lines, but, well, it's the official forums, what do you want?


Not getting a nice reward isn't getting screwed; a reward is a bonus, an extra, and that's all it is, a little extra bit of gear and it wont make you suddenly an amazing tank able to put out awesome aggro or anything like that.

And now you're arguing semantics. The point is that you can't create an endgame BiS reward with the current winner/loser ratio without a significant number of people taking it personally. It would have been so easy to make the quest rewards apply to only DPS specs, and even easier just to drop in a dagger and a tank 1H. Or to just make the quest give lesser rewards, or to simply deploy it at the end of the ICC gaiting (when raiders had access to all the bosses). Any of these could be implemented in under a day (if not under a half hour) and would eliminate the inherent flaw in the design. The point is they didn't, and moreover the "explanations" same across as distinctly disingenuous, which for players that were already feeling excluded serves to reinforce the feeling.



Blizzard doesn't have some personal vendetta against tanks either. It's all just bollocks strung out by people upset that they don't have easy access to a big dick extension.

Speaking of bollocks, you're still just using phraseology changes here rather than making a case. Fine, I'll use yours: 90% of the specs get a shot at easy access to dick enlargement. Basic psychology is that when you reward such a high percentage of specs with large epeens, the very small remaining segment will feel left out. It's bad design, and specifically is worse than past epic quest rewards that supplied genital enhancement to a much smaller subset of specs, or were careful to only upgraded the genitalia of specs of a specific role (e.g. DPS specs...and ONLY DPS specs).


On the other hand, A tank just needs to do enough threat and be able to survive. the key word here is "enough"; if you do 6000 TPS with a crap weapon and 6200 with Quel'delar but can easily hold aggro in both situations then the gain from the new weapon doesn't matter one little bit.

This argument is a red herring, as the point is the distribution of the rewards. For example, I've repeatedly shown how weapons could have been itemized so that no tanks took them of any class (at least, not for their tank spec). In that case you'd have a fair distribution of rewards, and would not end up in the poorly designed situation we are currently in.

To briefly address your facts, the caster dagger in ToC 10 has 550 spellpower plus a red socket while the caster weapons from QD have 657 spellpower and no socket, we we are talking about less than 100 spellpower. Certainly if you're currently just holding threat against geared min/maxing DPS (and if you have to gear and spec for survival that can happen on some fights) then having an equivalent QD tank reward would maintain the status quo. Of course a tank QD would also have more survival stats on it, so it would not only let a tank increase their TPS on pace with casters, it would increase survival too...in other words it would be a more important upgrade for tanks, not less. But again, this is a red herring, as what matters is the fact that the quest rewards should be either more restricted or else all inclusive.

You keep going on and on about how this is just a lot of people whining about their lack of free lootz, but almost all of the posts above are concerned about the design not just here but on future epic quest lines, where it could be that only DKs are the losers (or pick your favorite 3 specs to exclude).

There's little reason why this couldn't be changed in time for 3.3, even if it's going live next week. But if it isn't (and I'd wager they won't fix it) the point is they should realize this is poor design and change their reward system the next time they sit down to come up with an epic quest line like this.

TomHuxley
11-20-2009, 12:32 PM
Has anyone considered that the item to start the quest may be as rare as the original quel'serrar book? It's possible you may get only one or two ever if your guild runs the new 5 mans regularly.

I actually expect this. The point remains the same. Imagine that the Onyxia mounts could be equipped by everyone except prot pallies/prot warriors and mut rogues. The drop rate is almost certainly lower for the Ony mount than it is for the QD quest item and of course the mounts don't effect PVE performance at all...but would that be any more consolation to shield tanks and mut rogues?