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Griff
11-12-2009, 09:42 AM
I've got a couple of questions about protadin talents and I'm hoping you guys might be able to provide a little clarity. These questions are all about progression tanking in ToGC.


Divinity - I've been led to believe that the talent Divinity contributes alot to overhealing rather than making a significant contribution to keeping a paladin alive. Is this correct?

3/3 Crusader is better than 5/5 Seal of the Just in ToGC due to the fact that everything is A. Undead, B. Humanoid or C. Demonic. Also, the fact that Crusader applies to everything rather than the three seals that SoTJ applies to. Is this conclusion valid?

Divine Guardian: 'Must have' or 'can live without?'

Unfurth
11-12-2009, 09:46 AM
Divinity is pretty useless for just the reason you mentioned.

Crusader has math supporting it as better than 5/5 Seals even with 2piece T8.5.

Divine Guardian probably isn't worth it if you're doing TotGC since, if you die, losing a tank means a wipe anyway.

Synapse
11-12-2009, 09:48 AM
Yes,Yes, and Yes.

Divine Guardian is not useful if you are tanking ToC, but otherwise it'll see it's share of use. Extra tasty for swarms and vortexes, but that's rarely in the tank's range of choice.

Griff
11-12-2009, 10:07 AM
Thanks for the response!

Davout
11-12-2009, 10:34 AM
I personally use Divine Guardian for the improved Sacred Shield and the ability to provide another tank with a cooldown on single boss fights. Jaraxxus between adds and Icehowl headbutts come to mind as places where it can be useful, especially if I'm burning through mana doing my prot dps thing.

Satorri
11-12-2009, 11:23 AM
To be clear, Divinity helps as much as any other healing buff. It will not exclusively apply to overhealing, or make overhealing worse necessarily. It is usually passed up for other talents that are more focused on the tank himself for threat or survival. It's easy to miss because of tools you want to get in Ret, but it is anything but a waste.

Divine Sacrifice/Guardian is handy, but you don't get it for your own tanking so much as you can get it to support your raid. If you're frequently an off-tank or secondary target, you can use it to help your healers. Usually I see it passed up for the same reasons as Divinity. You can get nicer buffs for yourself and be a stronger tank.

Mert
11-13-2009, 03:43 AM
Divine Sacrifice can be quite nice for Faction Champions when they Bloodlust as it gives your guys a little bit of time to Purge/Spellsteal without worrying about being gibbed. Also for Heroic Anub Phase 3 if you find yourself lucky enough to get breathing space where there are no adds up (not something I've personally had the benefit of, unfortunately).

I personally go {1/1 Divine Sacrifice; 2/2 Improved Hammer of Justice} but really, any one of:



1/1 Divine Sacrifice; 2/2 Divine Guardian
1/1 Divine Sacrifice; 2/2 Improved Hammer of Justice
3/5 Divinity
3/5 Reckoning



Or some hybrid of the above can be quite viable depending on your playstyle, stats, etc. The main aim is to get down to 3/3 Crusade, so you'll want 53 points in Prot, giving you three "utility" points, assuming 1/2 Spiritual Attunement.

Darthmullet
11-13-2009, 12:29 PM
Crusader is better than Seals of the Just anywhere, not just in ToC, because the amount of our damage done by judgment is very small, it's more for the effects we get from the judgment.

Divinity has its uses, and maybe as the MT I would consider it, but I don't prefer it over Divine Sacrifice and Guardian, simply because generally speaking, you are going to have a good healer on the MT, who won't ahve much problem keeping you up. Divine Guardian is useful a lot, for taking tension off of the raid healers, and can be used anytime both tanks are on one boss, for example, Gormok the Impaler, a pally tank is going to use a bubble in that fight anyway to clear his Impale stacks, and D Sac helps the healers conserve mana for the other two fights with no breaks. I find that there are a ton of uses for it, anytime you specifically don't need to hold aggro, you can bubble and pop D sac to help out.

With the improved judgments, it is sort of helpful for interrupts, but I would only take it if you don't have many melee dps around to interrupt for you.

Mert mentioned Reckoning, I think you get more threat from putting those talent points into ret tree, then into reckoning, unless you're just using it to get the minimum to move to the next tier, and want the one with the highest threat.

So I would get Divine Guardian, don't know if I would bother with improved judgments or reckoning though.

Synapse
11-13-2009, 12:35 PM
Crusader is better than Seals of the Just anywhere, not just in ToC, because the amount of our damage done by judgment is very small, it's more for the effects we get from the judgment.

This statement leads me to think you had a 10-seconds hallucination. Seals of the Just doesn't exist, you may be talking about seals of the pure. There's some(a lot) math in maintankadin about it's value and for non DUH mobs, 5/5 Seals of the Pure outperforms 3/3 crusade + 2/5 conviction. Reckoning also increases Seals' gap over Crusade.


Divinity has its uses, and maybe as the MT I would consider it, but I don't prefer it over Divine Sacrifice and Guardian, simply because generally speaking, you are going to have a good healer on the MT, who won't ahve much problem keeping you up. Divine Guardian is useful a lot, for taking tension off of the raid healers, and can be used anytime both tanks are on one boss, for example, Gormok the Impaler, a pally tank is going to use a bubble in that fight anyway to clear his Impale stacks, and D Sac helps the healers conserve mana for the other two fights with no breaks. I find that there are a ton of uses for it, anytime you specifically don't need to hold aggro, you can bubble and pop D sac to help out.

Diviniy's problem is in how healing works: You get healed by a lot, all the time. The amount of hits at which divinity will do more than overheal, in raids, are all but unexistent. For as long as we are healed for full within a gcd or two(mostly because we take that much damage within a gcd or two), divinity doesn't help.


With the improved judgments, it is sort of helpful for interrupts, but I would only take it if you don't have many melee dps around to interrupt for you.

Improved Judgments? We need one point in it for our optimal rotations, and the second one is bonus for when you can't do the perfect rotation.


Mert mentioned Reckoning, I think you get more threat from putting those talent points into ret tree, then into reckoning, unless you're just using it to get the minimum to move to the next tier, and want the one with the highest threat.

Correct, Reckoning is one of our last threat choices, picked up mostly because we need a 3 point filler in the prot tree.


So I would get Divine Guardian, don't know if I would bother with improved judgments or reckoning though.

Darthmullet
11-13-2009, 04:18 PM
lol.. yea, sorry.

I meant seals of the pure, and improved hammer of justice.

Espillion
11-17-2009, 05:59 AM
Divinity is a waste of 5 points. Heals will be sufficient so extra would teeter-totter between hinderance and comfort in regards to talents.

Conclusion is split on this. On one end you can talent for more damage = more holy damage = more threat built with just Crusader but to the point of certain mobs. But then your threat might suffer on other fights like Beasts and HM Ulduar if you do those. It can be marginal but it's up to speculation.

Divine Guardian is handy yet not officially needed. But being a tank, might as well have it in your utility in case of splash raid damage.

jere
11-17-2009, 06:46 AM
My own personal view on that is this:

The delta on non-DUH mobs where SotP is better is small
The delta on DUH mobs where Crusade is better is larger.

I went with crusade. You can also choose to spec based on the instances you are tanking if you don't want to pick one or the other.

Mert
11-17-2009, 07:36 AM
Mert mentioned Reckoning, I think you get more threat from putting those talent points into ret tree

Which is why I specifically said that you could take a maximum of 3/5 in it in order to also get 3/3 Crusade. I'd never advocate 5/5 Reckoning in its current iteration, even with a 5/5 Seals of the Pure build, simply because there's a lot of utility in the Ret tree from Vindication and Persuit of Justice that I wouldn't want to give up.

Dragonpally
11-17-2009, 08:33 AM
I have 5/61/5 (pally tank {halfsizetank}) and its been working fine with me without D sac only issuse I have is holding aggro off the locks so what to do to make more theart for my self?

I have been told when I have the def cap i should throw in some str gems into my gear will that work too?

Satorri
11-17-2009, 08:58 AM
You shouldn't need to do anything special to hold threat from those pesky Locks. Chances are that you just need to get higher level gear to match and pass them. If you have equivalent gear they should only pull off you if they push it at the wrong time, refuse to use their threat drops, or there's something faulty in your method of building threat (though in my experience, Protadinining is the least crucial to get just so, to maximize threat).

That said, if you do crank up your Strength it will get you more threat.

Karasu
11-17-2009, 09:47 PM
Was just reading a post about the new change in avoidance and how it will affect healing on tanks .. and made me think that Divinity will be kind of worth since healing will be more steady.. as damage will be. Overhealing might not be an option anymore. So it would be a nice contribution to help healers keep tanks alive.

Synapse
11-18-2009, 03:12 AM
That's the goal of Cataclysm, yes, but it won't be reachable before that.

bashef
11-20-2009, 04:44 AM
@Dragonpally: you can't hold aggro off locks because you're specced wrong, and your spec can't feature 1/2 Imp Judgements required to maintain the proper rotation (max threat while sustaining 100% HS uptime and JotJ). Don't use strength gems, fix your spec and rotation.

Go visit maintankadin, start in the basic training forum, and read :)

Hammerfists
11-23-2009, 10:56 PM
Divine Sac is a great talent if you are an offtank for your guild. You are in essence providing 40% damage reduction to your guild's main tank for 10 seconds. The trick is to coordinate with the other tank so there aren't cooldown overlaps with this ability. If you're a main tank than this is a terrible talent since you dont want to soak up raid damage ontop of the boss whacking you.

Divinity is a point fluffer talent. Remember we already get 6% bonus to healing with Improved Devo Aura for 3 points Divinity gives us 5% bonus to healing for 5 points. 11% bonus to healing will create a lot of overhealing than any good.

@Dragonpally: you really gimp yourself by not going into the ret tree. Vindication gives us an improved demo shout/roar as well as Pursuit of Justice which makes us less flat footed. One thing most people don't talk about but a good tank takes into consideration is how fast can move to where i need to be. Take the Anub fight for instance when the adds come they usually B-line to a healer its your job to get to them fast as possible to prevent the healer from dieing. To me Crusade is the cherry to those two awesome talents.

Stephanius
11-24-2009, 12:42 AM
I think it may be useful to split this discussion between two topics:
a) the three (3) filler points to reach deep protection talents and should they be put in:
- 3/5 Divinity
- 1/1 Divine Guardian 2/2 Divine Sacrifice
- 3/5 Reckoning
- whatever

and

b) The best use for the eleven (11) points you have left when you are done with the protection tree, 5/5 deflection and 1/2 Improved Judgement.

Prancy
11-26-2009, 02:39 PM
Thought I might mention that divinity also increases YOUR healing done, which means more healing from judgment of light, which means more healing aggro generated by everyone attacking the boss.

Maybe theres no weight behind this but the one time i was MTing and judged wisdom instead of light I had major aggro problems.

Synapse
11-26-2009, 03:07 PM
Last I checked they made JoL threatless.

jere
11-26-2009, 03:45 PM
JoL is indeed threatless now.

Espillion
11-26-2009, 08:49 PM
Thought I might mention that divinity also increases YOUR healing done, which means more healing from judgment of light, which means more healing aggro generated by everyone attacking the boss.

Maybe theres no weight behind this but the one time i was MTing and judged wisdom instead of light I had major aggro problems.

Judgement of Light isn't a bad choice as a tool but you're more better off sustaining mana for your skills than minor healing offload. If you got a healing Paladin in your raid, then your JoL gets overwritten every 10 seconds or so because they would refresh the Judgement. Plus the healing scales with SP so the amount would overshadow yours anyway.

Aggro problems? Either the damage (and therefore threat) output is low or talents are placed in ones not considered necessary.

Hammerfists
11-26-2009, 09:38 PM
JoL is a flat chance on hit 2% increase in health now, I believe it was 3.2 when the change hit correct me if I'm wrong. It use to be ret pallies not holy pallies who would judge light since healing was based off attack power. In today's day and age it doesnt matter what you judge just make sure wisdom and light are on the boss.

jere
11-27-2009, 05:35 AM
Yeah, you can have holy paladins use JoW if you want. It doesn't matter as long as one paladin is putting on each.

It also doesn't matter now if one paladin overwrites the judgement debuff. Both Protection and Ret paladins put it up faster than the duration of the judgement debuff, so there should be no loss of uptime.

As a personal pref, I tend to make sure the prot put on JoL and the rets put on JoW.

Synapse
11-27-2009, 05:41 AM
Strictly speaking, Divinity improves JoL's healing, so ret/holy paladins that have it should be judging Light.

Even then you're talking about making JoL heal a tank for maybe 40 more HP on a tank(others will see a much smaller gain), so what Jere says is all you need to know about who should judge what.

MudNova
11-27-2009, 02:55 PM
So JoL's heal has no threat??? O_o i am pretty sure the dps gets closer to me at the threat metter when i dont use JoL, but.. O_o?? didn't know that..

Insahnity
11-27-2009, 03:21 PM
Strictly speaking, Divinity improves JoL's healing, so ret/holy paladins that have it should be judging Light.

Even then you're talking about making JoL heal a tank for maybe 40 more HP on a tank(others will see a much smaller gain), so what Jere says is all you need to know about who should judge what.

JoL is the same regardless who casts it. If you proc it, it is considered as if you healed yourself, much like iLotP.

That being said, back to the OP
Divinity is a situational talent, there are stronger general talents. If survival is an issue, between your group's strength/skill/gear or if it's progression for your group, try speccing into it. It may help more, despite slight overheals. If healing is not an issue, then pick something else.

Your conclusions for Crusader are (generally) correct, in a black box sort of way.

Divine guardian is really good for the reason mentioned above, having 2 points in imp DG. This means you can keep up SS longer without having to drop something in your 969 to refresh it, extra threat. It's a moot point if you have a holy paladin healing you, you don't keep up SS on yourself (unless you count on putting your SS on your tanking buddy, who is presumably a non paladin).

Synapse
11-27-2009, 03:26 PM
JoL is the same regardless who casts it. If you proc it, it is considered as if you healed yourself, much like iLotP.

That being said, back to the OP
Divinity is a situational talent, there are stronger general talents. If survival is an issue, between your group's strength/skill/gear or if it's progression for your group, try speccing into it. It may help more, despite slight overheals. If healing is not an issue, then pick something else.

Your conclusions for Crusader are (generally) correct, in a black box sort of way.

Divine guardian is really good for the reason mentioned above, having 2 points in imp DG. This means you can keep up SS longer without having to drop something in your 969 to refresh it, extra threat. It's a moot point if you have a holy paladin healing you, you don't keep up SS on yourself (unless you count on putting your SS on your tanking buddy, who is presumably a non paladin).

No, divinity does increase JoL. It's an irrelevant bonus, but it's there and it can be tested with ease.

Insahnity
11-27-2009, 03:40 PM
No, divinity does increase JoL. It's an irrelevant bonus, but it's there and it can be tested with ease.

Divinity increases JoL on yourself, so you are correct as well as incorrect. If a ret hits a JoL you cast, it won't increase it (unless they spec into Divinity for some reason).

Hammerfists
11-27-2009, 06:16 PM
The increase in health from JoL if you have maxxed out Divinity is laughable. If you do a 5% increase to a 2% heal you get a .1% increase to the heal. So instead of a 2% heal its a 2.1%. Divinity only really comes into play with direct heals.

To recap you have about 3 spare points that you can allocate depending on where you are in the content and what your role is. 1/1 Divine Sacrifice 2/2 Divine guardian if you are the OT. 3/5 Divinity if you are in progression and need the extra healing as MT. Or 3/5 Seals of the Pure if you feel healing is no longer an issue to bump your boss threat as an MT.

Synapse
11-27-2009, 06:20 PM
<sigh> even after I say that I am talking about a technicality and that I agree the difference is ridiculously small, you guys still maim at that statement. That's hopeless.

Hammerfists
11-27-2009, 06:55 PM
Not attacking you Synapse just pointing out how pathetic of an increase it is for 5 points. It's like throwing a grenade after a nuclear explosion.

KnThrak
11-28-2009, 04:43 AM
Divine Sacrifice/Guardian is handy, but you don't get it for your own tanking so much as you can get it to support your raid. If you're frequently an off-tank or secondary target, you can use it to help your healers. Usually I see it passed up for the same reasons as Divinity. You can get nicer buffs for yourself and be a stronger tank.

I want to add to this that a lot depends on your tank/healing setup. If you got 1 Holy Paladin, he should probably have his SS on you (assuming you're the MT) because come 3.3, that's the only way he gets FoL procs. However, you can then use your own DG-enhanced SS on the other tank to protect him from some damage.

While it rarely benefits yourself (only if there's no Holy Paladin, and then only fully if there's also no Retridin), if you include the benefit for another tank it's a good "tanking talent". Just not as direct.

A bit like runspeed for DPS, come to think of it. Sure helps DPS, but impossible to really quantify it's power.

MudNova
11-28-2009, 12:33 PM
Speaking about divinity...
You also need to understand how healing works...

Why do Holy paladins don't go for Spell Power so their heals are bigger??

Because it doesn't matter if they heall 22k or 24k... most of the time their heal has at least a % of overhealing...

with divinity a geared Holy paladin will crit you for about 27k, without it.. 26k...

5 talent points for adding 1k to a Holy light its not really that useful...

I'd say Divinity is useful if you're being healed by a resto druid...

Martie
11-28-2009, 12:44 PM
Why do Holy paladins don't go for Spell Power so their heals are bigger??
We do go for spell power - we just don't gem for it.

Because it doesn't matter if they heall 22k or 24k... most of the time their heal has at least a % of overhealing...
No, we gem for other things because some things are better then having bigger heals - like not going out of mana.

with divinity a geared Holy paladin will crit you for about 27k, without it.. 26k...
Yeah, but not all holy lights are crits.

5 talent points for adding 1k to a Holy light its not really that useful...
It's quite good, but you get more bank for your buck if you spend the points elsewhere.

I'd say Divinity is useful if you're being healed by a resto druid...
Nah, not really needed there either.

MudNova
11-28-2009, 11:37 PM
Haven't you heard "Enchant to improve an item's strengths, not cover weaknesses" ??

Divinity is like trying to cover "the weakness" of that holy palas dont gem for SP..

And well, i think i didn't express myself... obviously if you see an item with 30intellect and 60sp and another one with 29intellect and 90sp... you're going to go for the one with higher SP...

But you get enough SP from your gear, adding more is just going to be added to your overhealing, like Martie said, not going out of mana is more important, and since holy light is a mana burn......

But even if you had a huge mana pool, most of the good holy paladins will go for crit/haste instead of SP, since sp is mostly, like i already said (like 4 times), going to your overhealing...

Have it this way... a warrior doesn't has divinity... does that makes warriors harder to heal?? no...


.Yeah, but not all holy lights are crits.
Ok then, to some times add .5k and some times 1k to a holy light...