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View Full Version : Tanking gear and talent check please (Why so little Expertise on DK tanking gear?)



Ethaine
11-11-2009, 12:13 PM
Love the site, have to mention that right away. I am concerned about gear that is available for DK's through Emblems of Triumph for DK's, it seems to be very lacking in the expertise area and heavy in the hit area. Is tehre something I am unaware of as far as expertise is concerned for DK's wheen tanking? I was always under theimpression that expertise was rather critical for the role.

I would also greatly appreciate any advice or comments regarding my currrent gear, enchants, gems, glyphs and talents if someone knowledgable is willing to take the time to check. I will try to make sure that I log out in my tank spec and gear (I dual spec DPS and Tank for my guild and usually use DPS spec when soloing.)

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Quel%27dorei&n=Ethaine)

Thank you very much for your time in advance...

Ethaine

Xzanthos
11-12-2009, 12:35 AM
While the badge gear might be low on expertise, once you start upgrading to more ToC loot you'll be swimming in expertise and wondering where all your hit went (at least that's been my experience thus far).

Your gear is actually pretty solid, although your hit point pool is a little low, but it's easily fixable by switching some gems/enchants around.

First and foremost, DK's never intentially aim for Parry rating, we get more out of dodge, I gemmed for parry too, the kind people on this site helped me out ;)

Replace the 20 parry rating gem in your legs with 10 dodge/15 stamina (my personal choice) or straight up 30 stamina.

Replace the 20 dodge gem in your shoulders with 51 stamina (*see trinket below) Replace the dodge/def enchant with 30sta/15 resilience(PvP, 10k honor)

Replace the parry gem in your chest and gloves with 30 stamina, replace the expertise/defense gem in your belt with 30 stamina. Replace the 22 defense enchant on your chest with 275 health. You could go expertise/stamina but you have enough expertise where dodge is off the table, I'd personally go for the hit points.

*If you think you'll upgrade your trinket soon just throw a 24 stamina gem in it in place of the 34defence, or if you don't think you will, or you don't mind spending the extra gold put a 30 stamina gem in it. The reason I say put the 51 stamina in your shoulders is you'll likely hang onto those longer, and you'd end up having to cut another Dragon's Eye when you replace your trinket.

I don't know off hand without doing the math what this will put you at defense wise. I'm personally a bigger fan of the 2% stamina on Stoneskin Gargoyle than Swordshattering, but that's entirely up to you if you're still over the defense cap.

This should net around 2,500 hit points (unless you switch to SSG then more).

Next your spec, honestly I'm a big fan of the standard Frost, 5/15/5: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGZhxx0AbIof0buzAo0x:TawM0m)

I could go into in depth detail on why the standard spec is better than what you're running, but my posts tend to run a little long as it is :P

Basically the standard spec will offer you more threat per second over what you're using. As frost you shouldn't really need a shorter cooldown on DnD, and DG is rarely used (at least for me). The points in Hungering Cold, Chillblains and Icy touch are better spent elsewhere.

Glyphs: You really shouldn't need Glyph of Dark Command, you have a decent amount of hit, I didn't start running it until recently (I've lost 100 hit in the last 10 days) I really like Glyph of Howling Blast, it makes rotations easier when you get Rime procs, and I'm always Whelp tank lately, so I've kept it for that. Either way, I'd replace glyph of disease with Howling Blast, Obliterate or Frost strike. I value them in that order (whatever that's worth :P)

Also, while I have your attention, you might consider switching your blood spec to look like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMVh0Icfkf0stZfzhhxc:ILGMmV) With glyphs of DRW, DS, and Dark Death. I personally tried the obliterate blood and found standard blood DPS higher, but whichever you prefer ;)

Sorry for the wall of text, hope this is helpful.

Edit: Forgot to mention, if you have the gold laying around, you could benefit from Spiked Deathdealers - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=63192) They're pretty solid with the two sockets, and not terribly expensive (expensive being relitive, sorry if you're poor :P). If you don't want to wait for ToC boots that is.

Ethaine
11-13-2009, 06:59 AM
Thank you for your response and comments. I do have a few questions as I would rather understand the reasoning behind doing something rather than just doing it and I do not meant o be disrespectful.


First and foremost, DK's never intentially aim for Parry rating, we get more out of dodge, I gemmed for parry too, the kind people on this site helped me out ;)

It was my understanding that Parry for a DK was desirable as it increased the number of times we could use Rune Strike, which is only active after parrying an attack and Rune Strike is a huge aggro gaining attack. Am I incorrect in this assumption?


Replace the 20 parry rating gem in your legs with 10 dodge/15 stamina (my personal choice) or straight up 30 stamina.


Replace the 20 dodge gem in your shoulders with 51 stamina (*see trinket below) Replace the dodge/def enchant with 30sta/15 resilience(PvP, 10k honor)

Replace the parry gem in your chest and gloves with 30 stamina, replace the expertise/defense gem in your belt with 30 stamina. Replace the 22 defense enchant on your chest with 275 health. You could go expertise/stamina but you have enough expertise where dodge is off the table, I'd personally go for the hit points.

For gemming, some of the suggestions will cause loss of socket bonuses (including stam bonuses). And dropping an expertise gem. Before I do that can you confirm the expertise cap for me, I always thought it was 31. Would I be better off keeping my socket bonuses and still gemming with gems providing soem level of stamina at the same time to attempt to balance out stam with mitigation/avoidance/aggro abilities?


*If you think you'll upgrade your trinket soon just throw a 24 stamina gem in it in place of the 34defence, or if you don't think you will, or you don't mind spending the extra gold put a 30 stamina gem in it. The reason I say put the 51 stamina in your shoulders is you'll likely hang onto those longer, and you'd end up having to cut another Dragon's Eye when you replace your trinket.

Replacing the trinket is the problem, one reason I keep using it is for the stam it gives me as well as the gem sockets. I do definitely however agree that I can probably drop some defense for stam. I have looked at the available emblem trinkets and am hesitant to replace with them. (Same with my sigil, the emblem one gives better dodge, but only a chance to get it, while my current one always gives a bonus when I use RS. If I had a better idea on the proc rate I might be more comfortable with it.)


I don't know off hand without doing the math what this will put you at defense wise. I'm personally a bigger fan of the 2% stamina on Stoneskin Gargoyle than Swordshattering, but that's entirely up to you if you're still over the defense cap.

I am sure I will be over the defense cap even without SSG and dropping every defense enchant and gem. Again I wonder about how parry would activate RS and how much of a factor that can be for gaining and holding threat.


This should net around 2,500 hit points (unless you switch to SSG then more).


Next your spec, honestly I'm a big fan of the standard Frost, 5/15/5: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGZhxx0AbIof0buzAo0x:TawM0m)

I could go into in depth detail on why the standard spec is better than what you're running, but my posts tend to run a little long as it is :P

Basically the standard spec will offer you more threat per second over what you're using. As frost you shouldn't really need a shorter cooldown on DnD, and DG is rarely used (at least for me). The points in Hungering Cold, Chillblains and Icy touch are better spent elsewhere.

I use DG quite often actually, depending on the situation, and that probably comes from being a tank that handled adds when first starting the role. For example rounding up infernals that like to run away all the time is a bit easier when DG is available. It also doubles as a secondary taunt (at least it seems like it gets their attention somewhat at the very least). You never know when an Uber DPS in a PUG is not paying attention to the aggro tables and goes full out before a tank gets initial aggro. As far as DnD and such, call it a confidence issue. DnD being available is great for multi mob encounters. I may also be too comfortable with the spec because it was my first tanking spec and got used to it. I will definitely be considering revamping it after looking at the spec you suggested.

Also, I use hungering cold as a form of crowd control in the PVP boss, seems to work well for me anyway.


Glyphs: You really shouldn't need Glyph of Dark Command, you have a decent amount of hit, I didn't start running it until recently (I've lost 100 hit in the last 10 days) I really like Glyph of Howling Blast, it makes rotations easier when you get Rime procs, and I'm always Whelp tank lately, so I've kept it for that. Either way, I'd replace glyph of disease with Howling Blast, Obliterate or Frost strike. I value them in that order (whatever that's worth :P)

Good point, I took that glyph when I needed the hit. I have been thinking about my glyphs and plan on making adjustments. Will definitely consider your advice.


Also, while I have your attention, you might consider switching your blood spec to look like this
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMVh0Icfkf0stZfzhhxc:ILGMmV) With glyphs of DRW, DS, and Dark Death. I personally tried the obliterate blood and found standard blood DPS higher, but whichever you prefer ;)

Part of the reason I developed my spec and chose glyphs the way I did was for the purposes of support to the raid group. IE. extra healing from RT has made huge diferences in the past (Especially before they fixed Ulduar and I could heal the vehicles by huge amounts while killing the turrets).


Sorry for the wall of text, hope this is helpful.


Edit: Forgot to mention, if you have the gold laying around, you could benefit from Spiked Deathdealers - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=63192) They're pretty solid with the two sockets, and not terribly expensive (expensive being relitive, sorry if you're poor :P). If you don't want to wait for ToC boots that is.

Just had them made for me by a guildy and working on gemming and enchanting them. Was actually thinking about them for a while now. Gold is not an issue except for trying to raise enough for my traveller's tunda mammoth (almost there).

Thanks again for the response and comments, at the very least it has me thinking and looking at things with an added view.

Xzanthos
11-13-2009, 12:52 PM
It was my understanding that Parry for a DK was desirable as it increased the number of times we could use Rune Strike, which is only active after parrying an attack and Rune Strike is a huge aggro gaining attack. Am I incorrect in this assumption?


While Rune Strike does trigger off of parry, it also triggers off of dodge. Point for point Death Knights gain more from dodge rating than parry rating. That said, I'd never gem straight up dodge, I'd at the very least balance with 10dodge/15sta gems. EH is more important currently due to how hard some of the bosses hit, a few unlucky hits and you'll drop if you don't have the EH to soak them. This is the reason a lot of people go Blood due to higher EH, but I personally just don't like it as much as Frost :P.


For gemming, some of the suggestions will cause loss of socket bonuses (including stam bonuses). And dropping an expertise gem. Before I do that can you confirm the expertise cap for me, I always thought it was 31. Would I be better off keeping my socket bonuses and still gemming with gems providing soem level of stamina at the same time to attempt to balance out stam with mitigation/avoidance/aggro abilities?


For level 83 (raid bosses) the soft cap is 6.5% dodge or 26 expertise (214 rating), and the hard cap is 14% parry or 56 expertise (460 rating)
From what I've read here, once you hit the soft cap your focus should be more towards gemming for stamina, again due to the need for higher EH. As far as ignoring socket bonus's, look at the bonus, and then look at how many hit points you'd net by ignoring it. There are people that ignore every socket bonus once they've reached the amount of hit/expertise they want and gem straight stamina. I gem sort of like that, but a few slots like legs for example where I've picked up the socket bonus by using a dodge/sta gem, and only lose 60 hit points or so. But if I gemmed for the bonus in my shoulders I'd lose 90 hit points since the bonus is only +6. Now it's only 30 hit points difference, but it quickly adds up. It really boils down to personal preference, but I've had too many "wtf just happened?" moments and gotten gibbed when my hit points were a bit lower.


Replacing the trinket is the problem, one reason I keep using it is for the stam it gives me as well as the gem sockets. I do definitely however agree that I can probably drop some defense for stam. I have looked at the available emblem trinkets and am hesitant to replace with them. (Same with my sigil, the emblem one gives better dodge, but only a chance to get it, while my current one always gives a bonus when I use RS. If I had a better idea on the proc rate I might be more comfortable with it.)


You're in your DPS gear at the moment, I can't remember what your other trinket was. Something tells me it was the Onyxia blood trinket. If it was, you should pick up The Black Heart - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47216) It's really solid since the proc has a decent uptime.



use DG quite often actually, depending on the situation, and that probably comes from being a tank that handled adds when first starting the role. For example rounding up infernals that like to run away all the time is a bit easier when DG is available. It also doubles as a secondary taunt (at least it seems like it gets their attention somewhat at the very least). You never know when an Uber DPS in a PUG is not paying attention to the aggro tables and goes full out before a tank gets initial aggro. As far as DnD and such, call it a confidence issue. DnD being available is great for multi mob encounters. I may also be too comfortable with the spec because it was my first tanking spec and got used to it. I will definitely be considering revamping it after looking at the spec you suggested.


You really shouldn't have AE aggro problems as frost. Howling Blast and Blood Boil should cover that easily, especially factoring in killing machine procs.

Also, with the spec I posted your threat per second will increase, you won't need the second taunt as much. I can see the advantage of having shorter cooldown for certain fights, but I personally rather have a better all around spec than one tailored to specific encounters, and have it weaker for others. As far as Hungering Cold goes, we always have a bunch of AE going on during Champions PvP encounter so I never really considered it useful.


Part of the reason I developed my spec and chose glyphs the way I did was for the purposes of support to the raid group. IE. extra healing from RT has made huge diferences in the past (Especially before they fixed Ulduar and I could heal the vehicles by huge amounts while killing the turrets).

Death Strike should really be all the self healing you need, any more than that there's a problem with your healers :P. The way I look at it, as a DPS your job is to do as much damage as possible, and provide utility your spec brings (Abomination's might). If you're sacrificing your overall DPS for self heals the fights are going on a bit longer, thus your healers are healing the tanks/other dps more, and leaving that much more of a chance for an unlucky chain on the tank, especially in ToGC.

Hope this cleared a few things up, if you still have more questions, go ahead and ask, I, or someone else will surely answer them for you ;)