PDA

View Full Version : TankingTips.com - Podcast #8: Thatís the game youíre tanking



veneretio
11-11-2009, 11:11 AM
http://media.libsyn.com/media/veneretio/podcast8.mp3

Topics:


The Best Trinkets
Why do I have so little hit?
Healers and You!

Halandir
11-11-2009, 11:39 AM
yay! thx for giving me something to listen to this afternoon during dailies...

Ciderhelm
11-11-2009, 02:05 PM
Up to the public!

Koona
11-11-2009, 02:40 PM
This is so very true.

steadymobn
11-11-2009, 02:55 PM
any numbers to back up that armor trinket is better than say, heart of iron in everyday tanking?

Darksend
11-11-2009, 03:29 PM
I have said this before, THANK GOD I AM A TANK. If I was a DPSer I would never get a single heal ever.

My healers hate me and I thrive off the fact that I know they don't want to heal me but are forced to or we all die

but no seriously, i love you joy! you kept me alive on algalon this week! /clap

SquishemHard
11-11-2009, 03:42 PM
any numbers to back up that armor trinket is better than say, heart of iron in everyday tanking?
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/56221-armor-vs-stam-effective-health.html

You can use the calculations on paper or an addon like TankTotals (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/tank-totals.aspx) to find your EH in game, given an unmitigated boss hit value.

Also, not everyone has the same sense of responsibility as you. I personally agree with you on how I feel while healing. But there are plenty of healers that have no second thought about it when they let someone die. Saying all healers care is unfortunately wrong.

Valalvax
11-11-2009, 03:48 PM
*grumbles about not having the defense to support not having a def trinket*

I'm gonna have to reenchant/gem... actually, I could probably reenchant and call it good

It's one of those things I've been meaning to do, and meaning to do, but listening to Vene's sexy voice made me finally decide to /do/

Poppe
11-11-2009, 04:53 PM
Tanx a tank that know how the healers feel !
Tanks do somting wrong or the dps they blame the healers !

MaŤl
11-11-2009, 07:01 PM
I can't count the times in Vanilla/BC when I committed suicide just to heal in Spirit form just to soulstone and do it again just because I needed to bridge the gap between two mana potions.

DPS can bandage.

Daereg
11-11-2009, 07:30 PM
But Healers are our biatches!
One sign of respect and they'll be threatening to let us die unless we bend to their will!

Ciderhelm
11-11-2009, 07:52 PM
For what it's worth, he deserved to be bitched at in that HoN game!

Lakotamani
11-11-2009, 08:05 PM
I know exactly how you feel about the rush. The intensity is at a completely different level as a healer. When i get off that swiftmend that saves that Rogue's ass, man! Healing is somethign every player should have to do. it will change your wow-life.

touche, ven. touche.

Krynis
11-12-2009, 02:12 AM
I bounce between sleepiness and sick rushes when healing.

Conradx
11-12-2009, 02:37 AM
WOOT vene i <3 podcasts :D

swelt
11-12-2009, 03:57 AM
Like the discussion of the healer / tank relationship. Something I try to handle (as tank and raid leader) but know that sometimes I fail.

But I think you've missed a big part of the point when it comes to hit. I am a control freak. I don't think that's an uncommon thing for a tank - tanks get more obvious control over the outcome of a given encounter than any other role - so I'm going to hazard a guess that many other tanks are to some extent control freaks too. As a control freak, when I press my buttons, I want things to do what I tell them. I don't want to hit concussion blow or shield slam (not just taunt) and find that it didn't do what I intended it to do. I certainly don't like to see "miss", just as I don't like seeing "parry" or "dodge". So to me, if I'm putting on a hit/expertise piece or socketing a gem, it's not because I'm looking for higher dps/tps numbers, it's because I think I can afford to sacrifice a little bit of damage mitigation/avoidance for additional control.

Of course, I totally agree with your recommendation for tweaked sets and taunt glyphs. There are plenty of times when I won't get the luxury of that control because I need all the survivability I can get. That won't stop me putting in the odd 'vivid' (+hit/stam green) gem into yellow sockets with good bonuses. I have a 'mad threat set' that includes victor's call and even a dps ring (Bladebearer's signet) for fights where survivability is no issue but threat is paramount (great for add tanking at Jaraxxus)

Joacimcans
11-12-2009, 04:08 AM
Topics:


Why do I have so little hit?
Healers and You!



Unless i missed something you said you need 236hit + the glyph of taunt to not miss. If this is true i was horribly miss informed because I have never heard this before.

veneretio
11-12-2009, 04:17 AM
Unless i missed something you said you need 236hit + the glyph of taunt to not miss. If this is true i was horribly miss informed because I have never heard this before.
TS Thread discussing it from quite a while ago: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/50984-taunt-mechanics-guide-discussion.html

SiS Feeder
11-12-2009, 04:47 AM
For the part : Tank & Healer synergy, I totaly agree!

Having played Paladin Heal for more then 3years at Vanilla+BC. And now playing Tank since LK, I know what it is on both sides of the line.

Just remember this : If your healer isnt bad, then he is doing all he can to be at the best! Unless your healer is a retard, never blame him!

TomHuxley
11-12-2009, 10:12 AM
Since one of our guild's best healers is also my wife I tend to hear about the vicissitudes of raid healing a lot, but sometimes it IS the healers fault. That said, it's rarely because of anything that can be corrected by yelling at them for "letting someone die". Usually it's (for example) if we shift healing roles (e.g. the pally can't make it tonight) and then the two druids don't shift into tank-healing enough right away.

Same sort of errors as crop up if your tanks switch roles on an encounter and forget to transition cleanly, and are generally tactical failures that are easily fixed with a tad more planning.

Blue
11-12-2009, 03:55 PM
On Healer/Tank synergy...

Exactly why I've brought up a Priest-it wasn't that I had ever treated a healer badly, but I suspected that I was missing something vital, that I needed to know, about healing. It was just as Veneretio said...if I died, no one felt worse about it, than my healer, no matter how stupidly obvious it was that it was my own ineptness. I really didn't "know" that, until I found myself trying to heal, while also trying to figure out my positioning, use of mana, watching everyone else's health, and oh, yeah...that schmutz on the floor I'm supposed to stay out of, because...omg, I have to heal myself, too?!! Ok, now...omg, where'd the tank go?! Damn, I'm oom, again!

It really is the teamwork...makes all the difference. If I'm in a group that's trying, and working things out, and joking a bit, and cheering each other on, I am in virtual heaven, and it doesn't matter if we've wiped multiple times, because gold is just gold, but to struggle, and yet win, is beyond platinum!

Argali
11-12-2009, 08:24 PM
I think that there are several assumptions that you've taken for granted when commenting about the healers.

One of them is that they actually care when someone dies. Not everybody does.

The second is that they are actually doing things right.

There was a thread on-mmo champion titled "Healers Need to Take Responsibility", and there were so many posts by healers that give off the impression - "I'm a healer. I am God Incarnate. Everyone else in the game is inferior to me. Anything that goes wrong is never my fault."

Healers should be fair targets for criticism, just like any other role in the game. I do agree that it's hard to give constructive, fair criticism unless you actually heal.

I would love to have open minded healers who research how to play their class, not just specs and glyphs, but which abilities to use in what situation, and be willing to discuss what went wrong, and how to improve it. However, there's a lot of healers out there who have a false sense of entitlement, just because they are healing.

Lakotamani
11-12-2009, 10:44 PM
I have seen Healers-complex in the past. If you upset them, no heals for you mister. However, I think that there are two separate scenarios you will come across in your journey through WoW. You will have your guild/friend healers who you know well, and know deserve your respect. Then you have your random pug totc25 healers. You have to treat them with that same respect you do your own healers. They are people all the same and preform better when they know people have their back. However, as soon as you notice that mark on their forehead, the mark of the heal-beast, you certainly have to change your strategy for dealing with them. Some do believe that they can do no wrong, and sometimes that deserves a quick /groupkick in the ass and finding that lesser geared healer who wants to be there.
The point is, every pixel in this game has a person behind them. And as a raid leader you have to know how to motivate and criticize them. Healers tend to be the most heavily criticized of the pixels and they hold our lives in their hands. Making sure the person behind the pixels knows you are behind them is key to the tripod of success.

Hopehammer
11-13-2009, 06:49 AM
ok, i dont disagree with most of what this guy is saying in this podcast...EXCEPT about the hit. Tanks do have use, and not just so our taunts does not miss. If a tank is looking just for taunt to not miss, their are glyphs for that. Hit is not just a dps stat, its a threat stat for us tanks. For i.e. if our high threat ability misses, guess what, IT MISSED and now we dont produce as much threat as we could have. Our taunts go off of our melee hit rating, so a tank does not need the glyph if they are hit capped. NOw going over the cap is wrong, but its that fine line of balancing gear sets.

I dunno, i am a pally tank, so i guess i can't speak for every other tank class, but before they changed out spell power gain from stam to str, i gemmed for my 3 threat stats. Stam, Expertise, and Hit. I dont use full hit gems, i use the hybrid hit and stam gems. Same with Expertise, But i do beleive tanks do need hit, and its for threat.

I am not saying this guy talking in this podcast is a horrible tank, he is probbaly very good. I agree with everythign else he is saying, i just disagree about the hit. Thats my gripe.

My thoughts on healer....healers are eseential, some are awesome, some are lousy. But like the dude said, its a team thing. If soemthign happpens and you have to criticize someone, make susre its the right person. Its not always the healers fault. Maybe the tank did not move out the fire quick enough, or the dps wasnt paying attention to the kiting path of razorscale and got caught in the flame breath. Even though i do have to say, when aksing soemone why they died in a raid, the best response ever i did get was from a healer. "Hey, Grimmagoo, how did you die on phase 2?""Srry Hope, i didnt have enuf heals.""Really?? You're the healer though...""I know." Eh, stuff happens.

Giantone
11-14-2009, 10:03 AM
I pally that gems expertise... Please consider researching your class.

Ciderhelm
11-15-2009, 02:12 AM
Veneretio just yelled on vent:
"Heal me! Heals! Heal me! Give me heals! Hurry! HELP!"

In HoN. Don't trust him.

orcstar
11-15-2009, 02:49 AM
I dunno, i am a pally tank, so i guess i can't speak for every other tank class, but before they changed out spell power gain from stam to str, i gemmed for my 3 threat stats. Stam, Expertise, and Hit. I dont use full hit gems, i use the hybrid hit and stam gems. Same with Expertise, But i do beleive tanks do need hit, and its for threat.Looks like you haven't been listening too well. What Veneritio is saying is two things if I remember correct:
1: You don't need skyhigh threat, you need enough threat to stay above your highest dps-er. So if you are, there is absolutely no need to gem for hit because extra threat is just a waste.

2:If you aren't pulling enough threat you must be doing something wrong and it's hardly ever a hit problem. In other words: work on how you use your abilities rather then trying to fix the problem you're having by going for more hit.

(If your highest dps-er does 8k tps, does it matter if you as a tank do 10k or 12k tps?)

Blizzt
11-17-2009, 07:43 AM
Here's a good example of threat issues being something other than hit.

I play a druid tank and was having a lot of threat issues and started to think it was related to my low hit. If I missed a mangle, I really struggled to hold onto the mob.

Then I watched Darksend's Druid Tank video and realized my rotation was wrong. I wasn't using faerie fire in my rotation, only for pulling. After adding it, I'm not having the threat problems that I did have. Still having trouble on aoe pulls but I'll figure that one out eventually :)

I also play a resto shaman and the one thing I find frustrating is a tank who doesn't use cooldowns and expects me to heal through everything. If I'm on my druid and there's a large burst of damage coming, and I know exactly when it's coming, I'll use whatever I can to stay alive, Barkskin, SI, FR. Don't leave it to the healers and then blame them when you die.

Kazeyonoma
11-17-2009, 09:36 AM
Agreed, a tank that dies with cooldowns up is a tank that has failed his raid/group/healers.

I will add one caveat though... certain 1-2 combos are pretty gib and when learning encounters it can be hard (i remember first time stepping into 25 man heroic ToGC and getting gibbed in <1 second).

DazBear
11-18-2009, 09:35 PM
Let's clear up some misinformation. Taunts are spell based, can be silenced, and require 17% spell hit. Go look at your tank's spell stats, different hit % than your melee hit %.

Flip side of hit being a not so good stat. Tanks are on adds and bosses. We hit them repeatedly every encounter. If your healers aren't having problems keeping you up, why not maximize your damage? Encounter ends a lil faster, raids are more efficient, your top DPSers are happier, morale is good, what have you really lost with all that threat/damage?

Hit is about more than threat and taunts, look at the entire picture before making up your mind.

Takes 25 (or 10) to down bosses. Tanks, Healers and DPS, it's all equal. Respect the team, recognize/acknowledge your failures and be open to feedback (grow thicker skin if need be), no one is perfect.

Blizzt - Maul and Swipe your bear butt off, 263 or so hit, at least 6.5% expertise (or more). Mangle on main target when you have them gathered up. If you are still having problems tell your DPS to watch Omen and learn to switch targets if they are going to pull off you, the other targets will have plenty of threat. It's that team thing again, gots to work together.

Lachesis
11-23-2009, 12:09 PM
Agree 100% with the comments about healers. My first main was a Resto Shaman, and playing that for so long made the transition to Bear Tank a lot easier when Wrath was released. I now also have a Prot Warrior and am working on a Disc Priest.

I remember the first time I really felt the rush of pressured raid healing, of saving lives that would have been lost had I reacted only a half-second slower. I get a rush from tanking, too, but nothing compares to that healing rush. A perfect example is back when my guild was about to clear Kara, we were doing Moroes one night, and the group was really off their games. I don't remember how this happened, but our other two healers died within the first thirty seconds or so, leaving me to solo heal the encounter. It was a ballet in slow-motion. This person has garrote, this person is taking damage, tank is at this much health, I was in The Zone like I'd never been before- choosing to sacrifice a dps to save the tank, pulling off incredible saves in tight moments... I was flying for the rest of the evening from that one short encounter.

Playing a tank now, and having that background in healing, I understand the relationship between the two a lot more closely. I understand the pressure that each role can put on the other, or relieve from the other, depending on how well the players are playing on any given evening. I highly recommend that all tanks level a healer and raid with it, even if it's just in VoA Pick-up groups, or ToC GDKP runs. It will improve your tanking, and you may discover that you're as hooked on that rush as I am.

Thragus
11-26-2009, 03:19 AM
As far as threat stats go I find Expertise to be much more crucial. I have seen alot more dodges and Parries being slightly below the expertise cap than slightly below the hit cap. My tank happens to be a warrior ad I have to agree with Veneretio's point about hit, it really only matters on taunts. However warriors have a get out of jail free card with vigilance these days. I can see missing taunts being an issue more for other tanks than Warriors cause of vigilance. Also some guilds (and I have been in a guild like this) go bonkers and give you crap over a missed taunt. I would constantly be hounded as to why I wasn't hit capped. So I can understand why some people stress it and gem for it (I was guilty of this as well).

kmcfall
12-15-2009, 08:43 AM
Awesome podcast...Please keep it up!
I purposely rolled a healer (MsCamelea/aggramar) to learn more about healers after three years tanking and it made a world of difference how I play the game. The "social" aspect, or empathy to others, is so crucial! It has truly made me a better player and Tank!
Thanks again. Fun listening to you!