PDA

View Full Version : whats up with stam stackers



nutters
11-10-2009, 12:47 PM
Im a decently geared tank on Draka an Ive been noticing A LOT of stam stackers on my sever the have less quality gear then me it seems a wast of gems to me when all the realy have is 540 def or higher and the rest of their sockets have nothing but stam in it or the have both of the brewmaster trinkits ><. can someone tell what is up with this current trend. also if you want take a look at my gear as see if im over killing it on my stats im currently siting at 84.4% total DR 32244 unbuffed

The World of Warcraft Armory
(http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draka&n=Nutters)

Padinbann
11-10-2009, 12:49 PM
2 letters E H
Effective health that is why everyone is stam stacking and i've gotten most of my avoidance form gear so why gem for it?

Risky
11-10-2009, 12:50 PM
People stack stamina because avoidance is crap in ToGC. If you plan on doing heroic raids, stack stamina.

There's better threads for this, I think.

baleog
11-10-2009, 01:30 PM
Stamina stacking extends the range of Ardent Defender.
Base avoidance on TotC/TotGC gear puts you close to 60% pure avoidance even with straight stamina gemming/enchants.

What's not to love? :D

Bovinity
11-10-2009, 01:56 PM
People stack stamina because the encounters demand it with their huge, mostly unavoidable damage spikes. It's not a choice so much as it is a requirement.

Just looking at your armory, you're far far below the EH you should be at for your gear level because you're gemming for things like parry rating and defense rating even though you're at 569 defense. Despite all that you're only at about 56-57% total avoidance rate. And because those ratings don't scale with buffs, they get far less benefit than just stamina would.

There's a lot of other threads about this, but in short if you don't pump your EH as high as it'll go, you're just going to get gibbed by the harder hitting bosses in ToGC. Avoidance won't do a thing to save you, not one little bit.

Theotherone
11-10-2009, 02:32 PM
I didn't buy into the Stam stacking until I started tanking ToCr 10 and 25; now I'm a believer. I even dual speced into Blood tanking for the extra healing and stam. I'm sitting around 37k unbuffed and want more.

tribute
11-10-2009, 02:43 PM
armor is doing the same job...increases your eh

Bovinity
11-10-2009, 03:05 PM
There's no armor gems, few armor enchants compared to stamina, armor doesn't scale with raid buffs/talents in most cases, and in many cases the damage that you're worried about as a tank is in whole or in part non-physical and unaffected by armor.

That said, armor has its uses in some situations. But most often it's just not as effective at the same job as stamina is.

Risky
11-10-2009, 03:06 PM
armor is doing the same job...increases your eh

Unless a portion of the incoming damage is not physical. like most fights in togc... or uld.

tribute
11-10-2009, 03:07 PM
the magic things don't tend to get you as fast as a heroic gormok

but yeah, I agree with that, from fight to fight it's different and stam is the right thing for every job :/ (hate stam stacking -_-)

felhoof
11-10-2009, 03:20 PM
Stamina isn't the right thing for every job, but it does do SOMETHING in every job (save Anub'arak, which actively punishes the stam stacker).

For EH, more often than not armor will beat stamina per itemization point.
For MEH, more often than not resistance will beat stamina per itemization point (compare 102 stamina vs 70 resistance, for instance).

But resistance does nothing vs. physical attacks. Armor does nothing vs. magical.

So...if you want an all-around okay stat, stamina is it. But if you're really pushing things, look to armor or resistance as another, possibly better option.

Joowa
11-10-2009, 03:24 PM
Eh, I don't see how you can tank with a fishing pole as a weapon.....




:) (joking mate)

Bovinity
11-10-2009, 03:30 PM
So...if you want an all-around okay stat, stamina is it. But if you're really pushing things, look to armor or resistance as another, possibly better option.

Yeah...I know the thread was initially meant to address paladins, but from a druid standpoint that stamina is so cheap on item budget, scales so absurdly well with bear form modifiers, scales with raid buffs (well, kings) quite well and helps with everything. (Except leeching swarm, heh.)

If I had the gear, time and math at hand all the time to switch around stats to have a perfect balance of stamina and armor/resistance for every fight, I would. But generally I just don't. Even on a fight like Gormok I'm comparing my Brewfest trinket to Glyph of Indomitability and just kind of shaking my head.

felhoof
11-10-2009, 04:16 PM
That's true. I guess I'm finding that more and more the fights that really actively challenge a tank in terms of dying are few and far between, and more often than not either armor or resistance will help in those specific cases more than pure stamina will.

Or, more likely, cooldown usage.

It just doesn't seem like every boss hits tanks like a truck relative to healing any more. BT, for instance - it had arguably 6 of the 9 bosses that could just clobber a tank without thinking about it. Sunwell was 4/6 (twins and KJ weren't that bad). But Ulduar? It's what, maybe 3 fights max? ToC has 2 of 5, and of the two only one is particularly awesome for stam.

Icecrown might be different, but so far it looks like most fights are more overall raid damage and do the right thing in them.

Bovinity
11-10-2009, 04:23 PM
I just need to sit down and do the math to figure out approximately how hard each boss hits and what benefit I'd be getting from using armor vs. stamina on any given fight. I'm just really anal about exact numbers and such. ;)

Herlock
11-10-2009, 05:29 PM
It's not a matter of "current trend", people have been stacking stamina since as early as burning crusade.

And dispite I dislike this way to do things, it's sadly the most efficient way to gear a tank.

nutters
11-12-2009, 12:21 PM
Thx for the reply's its helped answer a lot of questions. and i agree with Bovinity (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/members/bovinity.html) my EH is really low only 97577 unbuffed and those gems......... where a miss gem and i was just able to replace them. but i dont agree with just strait stam in every socket imo u still need parry exp and doge.

Tengenstein
11-12-2009, 12:39 PM
27% dodge, 21% parry, 52 expertise....only non stam gem i got is a 10exp/15stam one for the meta. dodge (especially)and parry are getting into pretty harsh diminishing returns. Stamina has no diminishing returns. expertise is almost capped. Stamina has no cap. yeah you need avoidance and expertise but they're not that important unless your tanking trash packs

plus its fun parachuting in to WG fortress with 20 tenacity and having a raid boss like health pool.

Purinna
11-12-2009, 01:01 PM
People stack stamina because avoidance is crap in ToGC. If you plan on doing heroic raids, stack stamina.

There's better threads for this, I think.


I think a more apropriate responce should have been to balance your avoidance and mitigation stats to maximise your damage reduction while ensuring you have enough health to survive an unlucky hit string or in case your healers fall asleep.

While it is very important to ensure you can survive the big hits, the majority of ToGC is not all about big hits killing tanks. Its about proper execution.

Risky
11-12-2009, 01:08 PM
I think a more apropriate responce should have been to balance your avoidance and mitigation stats to maximise your damage reduction while ensuring you have enough health to survive an unlucky hit string or in case your healers fall asleep.

While it is very important to ensure you can survive the big hits, the majority of ToGC is not all about big hits killing tanks. Its about proper execution.

#1 See OP. The one I answered.

#2 If you're in ToGC, odds are you have enough avoidance on your gear to completely stack stamina. So please, don't listen to this advice.

Purinna
11-12-2009, 02:47 PM
#1 See OP. The one I answered.

#2 If you're in ToGC, odds are you have enough avoidance on your gear to completely stack stamina. So please, don't listen to this advice.


#1 The one were you made the bold statement about avoidance being worthless? If you think thats true then your mistaken.

#2 enough avoidance? is there a hard cap I am unaware of?

I think the OP already stated he wasnt interested in stacking stam in every socket:

"Nutters
but i dont agree with just strait stam in every socket imo u still need parry exp and doge."

I pitty the healers who must keep the fool alive that focuses all his gear on maximizing stamina and nothing else :)

luv2tank
11-12-2009, 02:56 PM
only time i trade a stam gem for a mixed(10 def/agi/dodge +15 stam) is when the set bonus is an avoidance one. If it is a + stam bonus, you may as well match-gain avoidance and only lose 60-90 health. I really hope ppl arent just throwing stamina gems in every single slot possible.

Risky
11-12-2009, 02:58 PM
#1 The one were you made the bold statement about avoidance being worthless? If you think thats true then your mistaken.

#2 enough avoidance? is there a hard cap I am unaware of?

I think the OP already stated he wasnt interested in stacking stam in every socket:

"Nutters
but i dont agree with just strait stam in every socket imo u still need parry exp and doge."

I pitty the healers who must keep the fool alive that focuses all his gear on maximizing stamina and nothing else :)

I pity the people who don't take advice from guilds that clear the content in question.

Ion
11-12-2009, 02:59 PM
It's not like it's possible to have no avoidance. If you are in the gear you're tanking Gormok, Icehowl or Anub (the boss, not the adds), then it makes zero sense to NOT put stam on all places you can. For some of the rest of the fights it doesn't really matter...avoidance or threat stats...fine, doesn't matter because the fight isn't apt to kill the tank unless something else isn't being done properly (healing incinerate flesh, for example).

What people are talking about is the tank killing fights that aren't Anub's adds, stam is the highest value thing you can socket or enchant for (with the possible exception of armor, but there's not precisely a lot of armor enchants and there are no armor gems...you can use the armor trinket on the appropriate fights, as well).

If you're not talking about "hard" content...then sure...do whatever you want, because it's not hard and you probably won't die unless your healer fell asleep.

Risky
11-12-2009, 03:04 PM
What people are talking about is the tank killing fights that aren't Anub's adds, stam is the highest value thing you can socket or enchant for (with the possible exception of armor, but there's not precisely a lot of armor enchants and there are no armor gems...you can use the armor trinket on the appropriate fights, as well).


Well said.
Can the people who critique my spot-on, brief and brilliant advice as "another stupid stamina stacker's post" please learn about ToGC incoming damage?

Omok
11-12-2009, 03:35 PM
Coming from the perspective of a warrior, stamina is the only stat you should be shooting for. I think this issue has been beaten to death in so many threads, that it needs to be retired. The fundamental theory boils down to this, focusing on avoidance is basically like hoping to win the lottery (avoid) in the event you lose your job (getting gibbed). Focusing on effective health is like putting away money for a rainy day (stacking stamina), in the event you lose your job (getting gibbed). Both choices may help you when you lose your job, but the second choice is a hell of a lot more likely than winning the lottery.

Blizzard has already said that avoidance is a worse solution than effective health is, they are designing content for effective health now, penalizing avoidance stacking, and I think people should just accept it. I have 44k health unbuffed as a warrior, which I admit may be a bit much, but it has served me very well doing TotGC25. My guild has done Insanity, if you want to call that end game raiding.

Purinna
11-12-2009, 05:05 PM
I pity the people who don't take advice from guilds that clear the content in question.

So based on your logic I should leave the casual guild that I have been a member of for almost 4 years and join some "Hardcore raid guild of the month" just so my statements can mean something on this site? You just won the mental midget award for the month Risky, congrats :D


Ion,

I didn't say to not put stamina in all places that you can, what I said was to balance your def/avoid stats to optimise your damage reduction and have enough hp to stay alive in a worst case scenario. How is this such a hard concept to understand... Let me give you some generic examples:

Gormok melee hits 3 times in a 6 second period for 11,000 damage each hit. Gormok puts an impale on you that ticks for 2300 damage every 2 seconds and the debuff stacks one additional stack every 12 seconds.

That means that in a 6 second period you have the potential to take in:
Melee damage received in 6 sceonds: 3 x 11,000 = 33,000
1 Impale damage received in 6 seconds: 3 x 2300 = 6,900
Total damage received for 6 seconds = 39,900

So if our healers fall asleep at the wheel and for some unlucky reason we manage to not block, dodge, parry, or miss on of those melee hits (whic is almost impossible in and of itself) we would take in 39,900 damage. Your stamina needs to be above this number (39,000). Once your stamina is above that number then you need to be paying attention to your avoidance and mitigation stats.

While none of that is exact math or factual data I used it to illustrate the point on what I'm talkin about. That point is, is that not all of us have the same gear and have the exact same stats and to post up in a quick one liner that stamina is the way to go and avoidance is worthless, is not the end all be all solution. Without looking at some parsed combat logs and thoroughly reviewing someones gear you doing nothing more than generalising and could be hurting someone more than helping them.


Omok,

Coming from the perspective of a warrior (3years) and a paladin (1 year) stamina is not the only stat you should be stacking. What you should be doing is looking at your damage intake and maximising all your stats. Stacking stamina and nothing else will turn you into a mana sponge. The only stamina stacking you should be doing is the minimum needed to survive an unlucky hit string and a couple ticks from a debuff or aoe going on. After that if your able to add a bit more to give the healers some breathing room, without negativly impacting your other stats too much then that is grand.

Niian
11-12-2009, 05:26 PM
So if our healers fall asleep at the wheel and for some unlucky reason we manage to not block, dodge, parry, or miss on of those melee hits (whic is almost impossible in and of itself) we would take in 39,900 damage. Your stamina needs to be above this number (39,000). Once your stamina is above that number then you need to be paying attention to your avoidance and mitigation stats.
If your healers "fall asleep at the wheel" during a raid then they shouldn't be there. Plain and simple.

If we go by your example there and get just above 39k hp then start stacking other stats I'd guess you'd be at about 40-42k hp. So the next hit/tick combo will most likely kill you, however I could survive another few hits/ticks, not to mention the AD proc that will give me even more hits/ticks to survive.

No stacking stamina doesn't turn you into a mana sponge. Raid buffed I have about 52k hp, 48kish on something like Anub (I swap out trinkets). While I have 52k hp I have just under 30% dodge, 25% parry and 11% base block. That's from gear stats and 5 half avoidance half stam gems (only to get socket bonus).

You get enough base avoidance stats from gear alone recently, hence why they have made it beneficial to have a lot of stam in most fights.
Having tanked pretty much everything so far (upto Twins on totgc 25) I'd take stam over dodge/parry any day, unless the fight called for me to stack avoidance over stam (anub)

Omok
11-12-2009, 05:26 PM
Omok,

Coming from the perspective of a warrior (3years) and a paladin (1 year) stamina is not the only stat you should be stacking. What you should be doing is looking at your damage intake and maximising all your stats. Stacking stamina and nothing else will turn you into a mana sponge. The only stamina stacking you should be doing is the minimum needed to survive an unlucky hit string and a couple ticks from a debuff or aoe going on. After that if your able to add a bit more to give the healers some breathing room, without negativly impacting your other stats too much then that is grand.

Hate to break it to you, but every tank is a mana sponge. Healers already assume that you have 0% avoidance, once you have the chance to to do Heroic 25 TotGC Insanity you will see that. If healers are relying on you to avoid an attack instead of heal you, then you will not progress very far. Avoidance basically equates to overhealing at the moment. Blizzard is changing the mechanics of the game to avoid the need for overhealing.

The use of the whole, survive a certain amount of hits and then forget stamina logic is flawed. That logic assumes that you only get healed every six seconds, and that's it. That is not true, you get heals multiple times during that six seconds. Whether you are at 100%, or 10%, you are still going to get a crap ton of heals. Potentially you could be at the 3 second mark, with 20,000 HP remaining and a melee hit/leeching swarm about to hit you. In that case, 45k health makes the difference compared to 40k health.

I am not saying that avoidance is 100% useless, but based on the design of current bosses, it's pretty close in my opinion

geros
11-12-2009, 05:26 PM
One thing to note is that "because I've done the content and you haven't" has never been and never will be a valid argument in TS. People can very easily theorycraft without clearing the content. I'd generally advise getting into pissing matches and name calling over that.

Purinna:

The damage you posted for Gormok occurs in roughly half that time in the heroic version. I think it can total up to ~43-44k on a ToC geared tank. So there is a valid reason to stack stamina/EH on that fight. Furthermore, almost every single set of burst damage capable of killing the tank has either been magical or been unavoidable melee damage in WotLK. Avoidance does little to help in that scenario.

Avoidance certainly does help to reduce the overall tanking damage in a fight and few will argue it. I'm just not sure that the conotation of being a "mana sponge" is necessarily a bad thing in WotLK. It might just be my personal experience but my healers have just never had mana issues. The burst damage capable of harder ulduar and h:ToC bosses require them to spam heals regardless of avoidance streaks. So stacking stamina in that case reduces overhealing and provides a stronger buffer. Your mileage and your healers mileage may vary though.

Fledern
11-13-2009, 08:53 AM
I'm guessing what Purinna is saying is you should still care somewhat about your avoidance.

I do that by making sure i maintain a minimum of 22% dodge, 18% parry and 16-18% block. I prefer if those numbers creep up to 25%/20%/20%. But the way the current content and gear is designed, you end up with those numbers anyway and making them more is pretty much useless.

Thinking back, i can think of exactly two bosses where avoidance actually helped us get the first kill more than stamina: Prince in Karazhan and General Vezax in Ulduar. And that was just for the first few kills. Once we got comfortable with the encounter, i switched back to my EH gear. If i come across an avoidance gear, i put it in the bank. If i see a juicy socket bonus, i might grab it with the hybrid gems. That's about as far as i'll go for avoidance though, after that it's all stam (pvp shoulder inscription instead of the hodir one for example).