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Zephurus
11-05-2009, 04:35 AM
Hi guys,

I have been reading tankspot for a long time, and didnt register until lately some problem constantly occur that I cant find the answer myself; so I need some expert's advise.

I quit wow for more than a year (when Sunwell openned) and just came back playing around 3 months ago; alot of stuffs had changed for my Warrior class, or more specific: tanking abilities. I never lost aggro before, but now when I entered a raiding guild that is progressing in Htoc25, I hardly keep my aggro up; every fight I have to widely open my eyes, focus and spam everything i could; still, dps are always reaching my threat (10k+ below mine); they do around 6.5-9k dps. I dont know what my problem is, my gears is alright, I did the rotation, but my threat isnt going up smooth and high like the other pally tank partner. I dont even have a chance to clap, demo because every second waste I might lost aggro.

This is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmourne&n=Zephurus) current wearings block value is 1k8

Could you guys point out what is wrong with my gears and talent built ? I have to wear some +block value pieces to increase SSlam dmg. I really need some advise so that I dont have to rely on the +block gears too much; also im really stressed out due to every fight i have to focus alot to keep my threat up; I remembered back then the tanking job required more skills but I still tanked everything with ease, even tanking with just 1 hand if I feel like it; I dont know whats the problem anymore, please help.

Daishan12
11-05-2009, 05:35 AM
Build looks good (almost exactly what I use!) One difference is that I use 2 points in improved charge rather than rend to get the rage on pull to nuke straight out! I personally only use rend when there is no threat issue and I just want to pump dps as well as my usual tanking role. One other thing about the spec, you may find if rage is the issue, 2 points out of cruety - focus rage. If it's not then 3 poitns out of cruelty to deep wounds

Glyph of vigilance is AWESOME for threat issues. Chuck it on your number one competitor until u have a lead on them, switch to whoevers now second on threat, rinse and repeat.

For max threat atm the rotation (of really boringness) is SS whenever it's up devistate the rest of the time, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. revenge if bored.
When you don't have a threat issue you can chuck in shockwaves, conc blows and my beloved improved revenge.

Gearingwise you have a lot of block in your gear and not too much expertise. Hope for some more expertise drops! plenty in totc. Gemming I'm a bit boring when it comes to gemming! and follow this:
Red: doge/stam for avoidance, exp/stam for threat
Yellow: def/stam (hit stam if you want a hit cap set but I don't really bother! and your hit looks good)
Blue: think everyone knows what to put here!
the added expertise may help a bit.

drae
11-05-2009, 06:59 AM
Expertise ma man; you need more of it. While SBV does increase the threat of your highest threat ability... expertise effects every attack in your threat rotation except shockwave. Select a few pieces that will get your expertise over 6.5%, the soft cap, as before the soft cap expertise is extremely valuable. Expertise is the #1 stat for threat generation as a warrior, personally I prefer it to hit right up to the expertise hard cap. I prefer it vs. hit rating... check out Expertise is Always Better then Hit (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/07/expertise-is-always-better-than-hit/).


There are a few excellent expertise pieces in ToC25 the Chestplate of the Towering Monstrosity - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46962) is an early drop and is far better then the unbreakable in my mind.

Headplate of the Honorbound - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47678) (from badges) is also a great piece. The two of those will push your expertise, and thus your threat; through the roof.

Contrary to the previous poster, I would say you need to redistribute some points.

Deepwounds - Get it. Drop the points in cruelty for it. Deepwounds is far more threat at 3 points then cruelty is at 5.

Take that last point out of cruelty and either top up imp revenge, OR take the point out of imp. revenge and toss both into Focused Rage.

Focused rage vs. Shield spec - I prefer FR for raiding, in a raid environment FR offers a greater rage / sec return then shield spec will. 2/5 or 4/5 shield spec (4/5 if you don't take imp. revenge, which is a threat loss if you have 2pc T9, and ~4000 ap iirc) and 3/3 in FR is my preference, tho it is largely situational which is actually superior, so either or works.

As the previous poster mentioned, grab a few vigilance glyphs and use them over blocking. It's worth about 500-600 tps if your raiders are pulling that kinda DPS.

Oh and a few more idea's not really threat related, but I noticed when looking at your armory. Your defense is very high, I recommend replacing those defense enchants.
Cloak - get armor! it's worth ~50stam on physical fights at your gear level.
Chest - HPs!
Shoulder - 30 stam 15 resilience from honor or Wintergrasp tokens! HP > defense and avoidance.

Hope that helps!

drae
11-05-2009, 07:03 AM
Oh and this should probably be in the Halp! Section!

Kilrum
11-05-2009, 07:39 AM
One thing I have found it to always, always, always, always, put vig on a lock and pst him/her and let them know they can dps a little harder than normal at the beginning. Their threat level from their first attack is really high, and taking 10% of that threat on top of your rotation will assist you in getting the aggro you need. After you get used to that, then you probably won't need the glyph of vig due to the increase in threat.

Other than that, expertise is indeed the biggest stat to stack until at least 26. I have recently got some good drops which brought my expertise up to 40 or so, and aggro has never been easier to hold, especially in conjunction with vig on a lock or other high aggro dps'er.

Kazeyonoma
11-05-2009, 10:29 AM
Moved.

Griff
11-05-2009, 11:26 AM
Fix your shield too - defense is much better that extra SBV. You might be able to find a Northern Barrier on the AH and that would be a solid upgrade for you.

You'll find better results from Blood Draining for your weapon.

Its also handy to keep a few threat trinkets in your bag. I use a Darkmoon card: Greatness (+strength) and sometimes a grim toll in my bag for threat. The DMC adds a static +90 strength and procs for +300 strength for a procced AP boost of +780 and a grim toll (which helps with my current hit deficit) and provides some additional threat.

Obviously, you can't use stuff like these in fights where survival is an issue, but for other encounters, like Jaraxxus where steady rage generation can be an issue, threat/damage is nice to have.

Zephurus
11-05-2009, 12:48 PM
The expertise is really a good advise, but Im having bad luck getting some stuffs drops off, and with the stress of keeping up my aggro, i used badge on block gears, such as the Triump helm that you see. I just ran a toc 10 today and luckily Anub spitted out the tanking shield after almost 3 months, my threat goes up pretty high(always 30-60kfrom the 2nd now).

Also, I just found out that before, there are only the hunters and an arm warr in the raid who constantly threaten my aggro, those hunters use aimshot to start their dps rotation and they dont even MD me; and about the arm warr, he has no reduced threat talent, moreover, he specs 8 points in Prot tree for 15% crit Heroic Strike.

Unfortunately our raid leader doesnt tell them to change their dps rotation/talent build therefore, to overcome those nerds' threat Ill need to get alot more expertise.

By the way, I have some undecided gears in bags which Im not sure should I wear them over the +block gears:

Endurance of the Infernal (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=47679)vs. the current one
Loop of the Twin Val'kyr(Heroic) (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=47955) vs. the current rings
Pauldrons of the Silver Defender (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=47944) vs. the Wryn Conquest shoulder
and the Ony trinket vs. the Black Heart.

switching those gears can grant me 5 expertise from 20 and reduce BVL from 2.2k to 1.9k. Im currently an OT for the raid and I can jump from 38k to 40khp if I want, but boosting HP im still afraid of losing aggro to those mindless spamming button nerds.

P/s: Thanks alot guys, after talking to you I got a few drops in 2 toc10 runs, pretty happy after 3 months a shield dropped for me to replace that COS one.

Insahnity
11-05-2009, 01:04 PM
Just another note, see if you can make friends with a competent rogue and/or a Hunter. Misdirects and Tricks of the Trade are your friends when you have threat issues. Good rogues/hunter will keep this up if the threat is consistently borderline between you and the next threat. Failing that, ask for a paladin Hand of Salvation or Blessing of Protection on the threat-chasing DPS.

As for Vigilence, consider also the DPS you have in your raid. Most DPS classes have active abilities to dump aggro (FeignDeath/Feint/Fade/Cower/SoulShatter/IceBlock/etc.), but some don't (warriors, DKs, Shamans, etc.). You might consider that in choosing your vigilence target, despite the fact that they generally won't be top aggro whores (there are a few exceptions like Arms Bladestorm). It's not a bad idea to study who is top aggro and slap the vigilence on them, but that shouldn't be the only consideration, just a major one.

drae
11-05-2009, 01:27 PM
I would advise anything you can do to switch SBV for Expertise (of course stam > all). TBH I stay away from the SBV Tier gear like the plague (helmet and legs). The helm of the honorbound is just soooo much better imo... and costs the same :( . Of course if I was already expertise hard-capped I'd take the tier helm, but not before.

Griff
11-05-2009, 02:56 PM
As for vigilance, I frequently move it during a fight, based on the aggro tables at the time. I like to park it on my MD hunter right out of the gate but then I usually shift it to whichever warlock's seeing the most crits as the fight progresses or even a particularly tender clothie during raid damage phases.

Zephurus
11-05-2009, 07:58 PM
Just another note, see if you can make friends with a competent rogue and/or a Hunter. Misdirects and Tricks of the Trade are your friends when you have threat issues. Good rogues/hunter will keep this up if the threat is consistently borderline between you and the next threat. Failing that, ask for a paladin Hand of Salvation or Blessing of Protection on the threat-chasing DPS.

As for Vigilence, consider also the DPS you have in your raid. Most DPS classes have active abilities to dump aggro (FeignDeath/Feint/Fade/Cower/SoulShatter/IceBlock/etc.), but some don't (warriors, DKs, Shamans, etc.). You might consider that in choosing your vigilence target, despite the fact that they generally won't be top aggro whores (there are a few exceptions like Arms Bladestorm). It's not a bad idea to study who is top aggro and slap the vigilence on them, but that shouldn't be the only consideration, just a major one.

Most of DPS in the raid isnt threating my aggro, only 2 specific huntards and that arm warrior with +15%crit HS; they blow their longest CD moves at beginning of the fight just to get a few hundreds more on their Recount table and dont stop/FD even if their threat go pass mine. My raid leader I dont know if he talked to them or no but they constantly play like that which is really stressful for the tanks. Asking for MD is like asking for their 10k gold, they said they have to DPS boss and that it's my job to pick things up, just like when I was tanking Anub adds with Icy under my feet and im out of range for a charge of intercept.

Muffin Man
11-05-2009, 08:26 PM
Most of DPS in the raid isnt threating my aggro, only 2 specific huntards and that arm warrior with +15%crit HS; they blow their longest CD moves at beginning of the fight just to get a few hundreds more on their Recount table and dont stop/FD even if their threat go pass mine. My raid leader I dont know if he talked to them or no but they constantly play like that which is really stressful for the tanks. Asking for MD is like asking for their 10k gold, they said they have to DPS boss and that it's my job to pick things up, just like when I was tanking Anub adds with Icy under my feet and im out of range for a charge of intercept.

At this piont, it sounds more like a raid issue. As a tank you can do what you can to achieve a high threat ceiling. But raiding is a team game. If some people are not doing their role (like MD or managing aggro) then they are being carried or covered for plain and simple. It's not your responsibility to do more threat or what not, just so they can continue their poor play.

(Although doing more threat is something of a never ending goal in tank self-improvement)

1stormchaser
11-06-2009, 08:43 AM
At this piont, it sounds more like a raid issue. ------ If some people are not doing their role (like MD or managing aggro) then they are being carried or covered for plain and simple.

I agree with Muffin here. From your post and what I've witnessed in raids are a lot of the "new" players who never ran BC either don't know how or don't care about their threat. Of course raid damage is critical but there has to come a time when players curtail their dps. Like he said, it's a team effort.