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Prancy
11-04-2009, 11:35 PM
Myself, being the raid leader, and all my officers, being real life friends, are all in agreement that we really don't like dkp. The alternative we came up with is loot council. Only problem is we haven't had the chance to try this out in any of our runs yet. I only see LC as being acceptable in an all guild raid which we haven't quite been able to put together yet.

For now this system would be used in 10 man situations so I think that most of the players involved will realize that everyone will get what they need in time and the item will go to helping the raids progression.

Anyone got thoughts on the matter? Has this system worked for you? Has it failed miserably?

Aggathon
11-04-2009, 11:44 PM
If it isn't an all guild raid DKP is bad too because it doesn't allow the PuGs an equal shot at gear when that's probably the reason they agreed to help out in the first place.

For all guild runs I think Loot Council is the best idea too, as long as the council is balanced and has some objective rules laid down too.

What my guild does is a tiered Loot Council system. We link the item people are to put in for, then whoever wants that item links their current item and a 1, 2, or a 3. 1 = Offspec, 2 = Upgrade of any Magnitude, 3 = OMFG WTF I NEED THIS PIECE OF GEAR SOOOOO BAD. Basically, a 3 is the equivalent of bombing all your DKP, we weight if someone got something contested on a 3 very heavily for future pieces of loot. If someone puts in a 3 in on everything we stop weighting the 3 as a 3 and put them on the level of a 2.

When distributing loot we look at the following (roughly in order, but depending on circumstances we rate some things higher than others).

Who's gotten gear last/# of 3s bombed
Who's gotten the most of the highest level gear (right now 258)
Who's gotten more contested gear (aka they weren't the only person that wanted it and it wouldn't have gone to DE or Offspec if they had picked it up)
Who the upgrade is better for
Performance
Attendance
Guild contributions
Performance improvement
Attitude/Effort
Etc. Etc.

I don't like dkp because what usually happens is X person stocks up their DKP for Uber_Loot1. Y person methodically picks up gear upgrades with a little bit of DKP and is your best DPS, and most attendance, and deserves Uber_Loot1. X person bombs all DKP on Uber_Loot1 and because X person horded up all their DKP rather than upgrading that blue wand, X person has more DKP than Y person, and even though Y person deserved Uber_Loot1, Y person did not get Uber_Loot1.

This actually happened in my old guild, we had a rogue with Chromatically Tempered Sword in his main hand and friggin' Trash Blade in his offhand.

Thulldar
11-05-2009, 09:50 AM
It's the best way to efficiently gear your raid for progression.

It's also the best way to start loot drama and cause people to ragequit the guild.

The extent to which you explain your decisions and defend them will determine the results for you.

Risky
11-05-2009, 10:02 AM
Loot council only works if people respect their officers' decisions and intelligence.

DKP works great for us. We don't have gearwhores, so people tend to take upgrades and don't horde except for trinkets and rings.

Prancy
11-05-2009, 10:04 AM
This actually happened in my old guild, we had a rogue with Chromatically Tempered Sword in his main hand and friggin' Trash Blade in his offhand.

Hey man don't be knocking the thrash bade, its got a crazy mad proc. But seriously, that's pretty messed up. If I could get 2 acceptable entry 60 weapons on my alt rogue he could have too.

Back on subject: I like the 1, 2, 3 idea since it gives the council members more to work with and assures the raiders reciveing loot that the system isn't completley arbitrary.

Aggathon
11-05-2009, 05:20 PM
Hey man don't be knocking the thrash bade, its got a crazy mad proc. But seriously, that's pretty messed up. If I could get 2 acceptable entry 60 weapons on my alt rogue he could have too.

Back on subject: I like the 1, 2, 3 idea since it gives the council members more to work with and assures the raiders reciveing loot that the system isn't completley arbitrary.

Ya, I was in the same spot you were in about a year and a half ago. I started a guild with a bunch of my real life friends and we decided to do loot council, but we didn't have the 1,2,3 thing in place. First piece of loot first raid was the trash drop shoulders from TK. We had people link, decided to give it to a mage, a warlock immediately rage gquits and the mage was like, "I didn't want them that bad!"

So we decided to do a teired system to try and avoid some of those problems. But frankly anyone that would ragequit over loot should go ahead and do it because I don't want those kind of people in my guild. Get gear to kill bosses imo, not kill bosses to get gear.

We've only had a few problems, but most of them were compounded by dramaqueens/kings and relationships and such. We once gave our second Tempest of Chaos to a warlock who used a 3. Next raid we got our first Mother Sharazah (I forget how to spell it) kill and she put in for shoulders, but I ended up getting the shoulders (I needed them pretty badly at the time and hadn't gotten loot in a while, we also have a rule that any member of the loot council that puts in for an item is not allowed to put in any input to the discussion of who gets that piece of loot). She got real pissed and her boyfriend did too and they caused drama llamas and ya it was bad, but fortunately we'd been so far and balanced that no one else in the guild saw it their way and we got things worked out.

There have only been a few pieces of gear that I think have gone to someone that didn't deserve it, and seeing as how I've used this loot system for over 18 months now, I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

Prancy
11-05-2009, 10:08 PM
So here's my next question. Those of you who are somewhat against/warning about it, are your LC experiences in 25 or 10 man raids?

delta38
11-06-2009, 01:43 AM
We use Loot Council too. Somewhat similar to what Aggathon described, but with some small but - in my eyes - important differences:

- The Members of our Council are regularly (every 3 Months or when necessary)
elected via our guild forums. This gives our Members confidence in the decisions made - at least the majority of them.

- When an item drops, everybody has the right to say "need" and has to post his current item in that slot into raidchat. If its for offspec a simple "2nd" is enough. When only one Member has a real need, its trivial.

- Otherwise every member of the council (5 normally) whispers his decision to me or my co-leader, when I'm not present. Then I announce, who got the most votes and distribute the loot.
The decision is based on nearly everything, what makes a good raider:
attendence,
current gear (who gets most out of the item),
skill,
how much loot one got recently,
timeliness,
improvement,
effort, ...

- When there is a draw, those two (or more) persons roll for the item. When there is only "2nd"-need, everybody rolls.

- The arbiter (is that word right in that context?) - normally me - has the right to question the decision of the council, when it just doesn't seem right in that place (happened once or twice in one and a half year)

- on top of that the council has a channel to discuss the decisions or specific members - wether they deserve items or not as much as others. Same in our forums.

So for me, there is no downside in lootcouncil at all. Nearly everybody here is happy with the distribution as is - at least to my knowledge. Those who don't get the big picture to push the group as much as possible either cope with it or get replaced (also happened not more than 4 or 5 times in that time and mostly to guys that never integrated / fitted into the group).

I hope that helped a little :)

Edit: Talking about 25 mans.
In 10 mans there are too little items that more than 2 players want to justify that much effort. Mostly rolls or open discussion suffice.

ZubZero
11-06-2009, 04:27 AM
Loot council will allways cause drama, because everyone got the right to their own opinion.

Btw. how long time do you waste during raids discussing who gets the loot?

delta38
11-07-2009, 03:51 AM
Btw. how long time do you waste during raids discussing who gets the loot?

I'd say about 30-40 seconds per item. Sometimes it naturally takes longer, but most of the time its very fast.

"Always" is not right at least in our case. No drama at all - and much better progress than before.

On top of that we don't take anyone's opinion away. It's like always: Not everybody will be satisfied all the time.

Aggathon
11-07-2009, 04:21 AM
I'd say about 30-40 seconds per item. Sometimes it naturally takes longer, but most of the time its very fast.

"Always" is not right at least in our case. No drama at all - and much better progress than before.

On top of that we don't take anyone's opinion away. It's like always: Not everybody will be satisfied all the time.

^ This, the only drama caused is if the loot council has no objective benchmarks and clearly favors some people over others. Loot drama will happen irregardless of the system, and if you have people in your guild that would get pissy and leave over something as silly as a piece of loot that will drop again... then let them leave.

Kalbitang
11-10-2009, 08:09 AM
Loot council really depends on who is running it. It's probably one of the systems most likely to have bad drama, though, whether it is deserved or not. I would personally avoid the system, but some folks like it.

chun
11-10-2009, 09:09 AM
If you are a small guild of real-life friends, primarily focused on 10-man content
loot council can be quick and easy. As others have mentioned, it requires
the participants to trust the judgment of the council, and for the council
to make informed looting decisions.

When we were RL friends in kara, that's what we used, we talked about
what drop benefited whom the most and folks even planned out what
they wanted. Since in TBC kara (and much later ZA) was the only
10 man content, we ended up growing the guild and stepping into 25s.

We kept loot council (mainly since we're lazy) and for a long time folks
were happy. A few disagreements would occur particularly when someone
who had been in a raid (ie SSC) 4-5 times got an item over someone who
had been in more like 8-9 times. And we did lose people.

We even used loot council in naxx 25, but by then the guild had grown
and had so many different folks that it became less and less tenable.
Particularly when bringing in pugs (even regular pugs from smaller guilds).

Early this summer we finally switched, and now use Suicide Kings.
For our more casual nature, and the sheer random number of people we
may have in raids, it words wonderfully for us. If someone has
moved up to a top spot, even if it's a regular pug, there are no complaints,
since they have obviously put the time in, and I can't think of a single
loot problem that's occurred since we switched over.

Hope this helped in some way!

jafager
11-10-2009, 10:56 AM
Loot council is bad. It is always bad, but some people have had good experiences with it, so it persists.

It turns what should be an economic decision ("I want this item enough that I'm willing to pay X amount, but no more.") into a political decision ("Who deserves this item the most?").

If you could somehow feed all the variables into a computer and get an objective analysis, loot council would be okay. Instead, you end up with a system that rewards people who are good at politics to the detriment of everyone else.

And I don't buy the "well if you're all friends it all works out" argument. If you're all friends, you should be able to work it out without some animals being more equal than others. If not, let the dice decide; being pissed at the RNG doesn't ruin friendships.

Bashal
11-10-2009, 11:04 AM
I've never really liked the notion of loot council. I can understand the need to make sure loot doesn't get concentrated onto a couple people in the raid due to lucky /rolls, but lots of other methods work well enough to prevent that. Suicide Kings (which was mentioned already) is very effective, I have found.

Loot council strikes me as being one of those systems that only works well when you have a raid with a very static group makeup, with the vast majority of your raid being long-time members. If that doesn't match your situation, you're probably just in for a lot of drama, mistrust, accusations, and some gquits.

sakkdaddy
11-11-2009, 02:16 AM
My guild used DKP in TBC, and going into WotLK we revamped our loot system entirely. It works amazingly well!

We use a loot council system, combined with a wishlist priority system. For each tier of content, everyone has to submit a wishlist for that tier of content: 1 item per slot. When an item drops, I link it in raid chat, and people say wl for wishlist, n for need, and o for offspec. WL > N > O as the first rule, and then if there are more than one people with the same loot priority on the item, the council decides who gets it.

Furthermore, the loot council relates heavily to our guild structure. I have one officer for melee (+ hunters), one for casters, and one for support (tanks+healers). If a physical dps item drops, then the melee officer decides who gets it. The same goes for caster items and support items. When an item could go to people in multiple groups, then each officer chooses which of their raiders it should go to, and we compare the person from each group who would need the upgrade.


The greatest benefit of this system is that nothing gets sharded unless it is truly useless to everyone. Our offspecs are geared insanely well, and there is no reason to pass on the intermediate upgrades on the way. We had a bad string of luck and lost 2 of our main tanks within 2 months, so got our first Anub HC kill with 2 alts and 2 offspecs in the raid, one of which was our MT. We had only one tanking main spec in our guild for some time, but had geared our offspecs so well that a ret pally and dps feral could just switch specs and MT the instance fine. Most of our healers have dps offspecs that are far better than 99% of dps apps that we get.

Using loot council lets us look beyond the numbers and reward people for playing well and being reliable, and similarly punish people who would try to "hoard" and pass on wishlist items in hopes for a step up on a more important item later on. We can see this and make sure that "hoarding" is penalized, and just make generally smart decisions for loot.

DKP sucks because it is hard to maintain, and subject to all sorts of abuses that are hard to handle because of the mathematical nature of the system. Also, people are much less willing to take intermediate upgrades if it means that they will have to wait longer on the BiS item from that tier that they want. It also makes it very hard to punish dkp hoarders who let upgrades get sharded so they can save their DKP for the uber weapon or trinket that they want.


Loot council is highly dependant on having fair and honest officers though, which is the main drawback. It is also a bit trickier to punish people for mistakes with loot council, where in DKP you can deduct points easily. If you have good raiders and good people in the council though, then there is really no better way to distribute loot.

geros
11-11-2009, 06:12 AM
My 10man only guild doesn't even loot council. We roll and if someone really wants/needs the item the other person(s) will pass it. We run with a roster 10 people for any hardmodes though so it is very easy to distribute loot in a orderly fashion.

Zorahh
11-15-2009, 06:15 PM
We have just started using EPGP loot system and it seems like it will work out very well. Rewards those who come with us on a regular basis, and still allows everyone an equal chance to get loot.

Penlowe
11-16-2009, 06:41 AM
The key to any loot system is a detailed description of how it works posted somewhere on your guild site. So, when a Drama Llama says "but I deserve it more!" you can point to the forums and say "according to our system, no you don't. You agreed to this system (when you joined the guild) (when we voted on it). If you would like to see the system changed, please post to the forums, now is not the time to discuss that".

Write it down, write it down, write it down. All guild policies, every time, big or small.

Rominoodle
11-16-2009, 07:19 AM
Personally, I think you guys are over complicating the matter. If this guild of yours is mostly friends and family I would imagine you don't beat each other up over loot. I've always done it with loot master and a need and a greed roll. Need roll is only for main spec, and it's a roll from 1-100 and greed roll is off-spec and it's 1-10. Very easy to distinguish who really needs the item and who doesn't. My guild doesn't use DKP, or loot council, we just trust each other not to be ninja looters and need on a slight "oh i could use this eventually" item.

Reev
11-16-2009, 07:35 AM
Personally, I think you guys are over complicating the matter. If this guild of yours is mostly friends and family I would imagine you don't beat each other up over loot. I've always done it with loot master and a need and a greed roll. Need roll is only for main spec, and it's a roll from 1-100 and greed roll is off-spec and it's 1-10. Very easy to distinguish who really needs the item and who doesn't. My guild doesn't use DKP, or loot council, we just trust each other not to be ninja looters and need on a slight "oh i could use this eventually" item.

We did it like this for a long time even in 25 mans, because we were running together with another guild (though we were the majority). Personally, I love that system. I really like how it is completely cut and dry, and if anyone has an issue, you can just say "XYZ person won the roll fairly." We obviously didn't really have many problems with this system.

Of course the one time we had an exception (new player takes high end equipment even though his dps sucks, then gquits) people decided we needed to change. I'll never understand why people feel that one piece of loot going badly means the whole system is bad, but so it goes.

Now we use EPGP for 25 man runs, which is a good system, but I still prefer the Main>Alt, Mainspec>Offspec straight roll system. It's so much simpler. We still use the roll system for 10 man runs.

orcstar
11-16-2009, 04:06 PM
In our 10 mens we roll for items and everyone rolls need because 8/10 don't have their needy achievement yet. After that we bitch around a bit have a laugh and give the items to the ones who want them.

docseuss
11-17-2009, 05:28 PM
I would like some feedback on a possible loot system that I have been kicking around. I'm trying to take the human factor out as much as possible.

Please comment where you see I may have made mistakes in calcs. or judgment. I am thinking about developing this Raid addon to make the tracking of this easier, but I'd like to know what you all thought before I invest any time into it. Thanks in advance!

Objective: Helps with loot distribution by calculating a loot score based on 4 factors. Attendance (including standby), Guild Bank contributions based off gold/item value, Gear Scores (Need before Greed), and items won. Based on a characters Loot Rank a grid will display the order in which raid members should receive loot. Also since each calculation has a factor in which it is multiplied you can change the factor to increase or decrease the weight of any one calculation.

Calculations are based as follows:

Gear Score: Average raid gear score (AGS) - Lowest Raid Gear Score (LGS) = Raid Gear Score Weight (RGSW) / Number in Raid (NR). or (AGS - LGS) / NR = Raid Gear Score Factor (RGSF). So for example if a 10 man raid had 2 people with Gear Scores of 258, 3 people with Gear Scores of 245, 4 with Gear Score 213, and 1 with Gear Score of 226 for an average of 232.9 (AGS) - 213 (LGS) = 19.9 (RGSW) / 10 (NR) = 1.99 (RGSF). Now that you have the Raid Gear Score factor you add or subtract that factor from each score plus or minus the AGS. So each person in this raid with a gear score of 258 would loose (258 - 232.9) * 1.99 = 49.95 points, each person with a score of 213 would gain (232.9 - 213) * 1.99 = 39.60 points, and each person with a Gear Score of 226 would gain (232.9 - 226) * 1.99 = 13.731.

Attendance Score: Attendance Percentage 80 (AP) * Attendance Factor (AF) 1= 80 + Standby Percentage (SP) 20 * Standby Factor (SF) .75 = 15 = Attendance Score (AS) 95. So for example if a character was invited to 10 raids and they attended 8 out of those 10 raids their Attendance Percentage (AP) would be 80 * Attendance Factor (AF) 1 = 80. Now lets say that the next 5 raids the character was not invited but signed up and was placed on standby and was online for 3 out of the 5 of those raids their Standby Percentage would be 60 * Standby Factor (SF) .75 = 45. Their total Attendance Score (AS) would then be 125. Attendance would actually be calculated off of total raid time not necessarily raid amounts. It just makes it an easier example. Also standby credit would only be counted by the amount of actual time online during raid. A lookup table may have to be created in order to give credit for alt play time. Of course another method could be to have the person whisper Raid Leader in order to register the character/alt with the raid they are on to gain credit.

Bank Score: Bank Score would be based off of item/gold deposits to the guild bank. Item values would be translated to a gold value via the Auctioneer DB http://auctioneerdb.com (http://auctioneerdb.com/) so that characters depositing more value added items get proper credit. Each gold piece would be equal to amount deposited * Bank Point Factor (BPF). A method for tracking alt deposits would have to be designed. For example if a character deposited 5 fish feasts at an Auction House mean price value of 19 gold 48 silver, 3 Flask of the Frost Wyrm at an Auction House mean price value of 27 gold 70 silver, and finally they deposited 100 gold their Bank Score (BS) would be 280.5 gold * Bank Point Factor (BPF) .5 = 140.25. There would have to be a check to make sure that people on the raid DEing or collecting BoE items did not get credit for depositing those into the guild bank.

Item Won Score: Item Won Score (IWS) could be based off of Items Won (IW) 2 * Item Won Factor (IWF) 10 = Item Won Score (IWS) 20 or it could be more complicated and be based off of Average Item Gear Score (AIGS) 226 * Items Won (IW) 2 * Item Won Factor (IWF) 10 = 238. Item Won Score is a negative calculation so this score would be subtracted from total.

Taking the calculation examples from above and using the IWS calc of (IW) * (IWF) we would have the following Loot Ranks.

The people having a gear score of 213, with everything else being equal, would have a Loot Rank score of 284.85.

The people having a gear score of 226, with everything else being equal, would have a Loot Rank score of 258.98.

The people having a gear score of 245, with everything else being equal, would have a Loot Rank score of 221.17.

The people having a gear score of 258, with everything else being equal, would have a Loot Rank score of 195.05.

So if a piece of loot dropped for Pallies and one had a gear score of 258 and the other had a score of 226 then the Pally with Loot Rank score of 258.98 would win the loot. If for some rare occasion the Loot Rank number was equal then it would go to roll off or loot council.

Anyhow I know calculations in paragraph form is not always the easiest, but I was trying to give examples/descriptions along with the calcs. Also there also needs to be some implementation so that Pugs get a chance at loot as well. 2 out of the 4 calcs would still work (GearScore and Items won), but there would have to be a mechanisim to fill in the Bank/Attendance calcs.

Feedback is really appreciated.
Thanks!

P.S. Sorry for posting same reply twice!

Insahnity
11-17-2009, 05:45 PM
Personally, I think you guys are over complicating the matter. If this guild of yours is mostly friends and family I would imagine you don't beat each other up over loot. I've always done it with loot master and a need and a greed roll. Need roll is only for main spec, and it's a roll from 1-100 and greed roll is off-spec and it's 1-10. Very easy to distinguish who really needs the item and who doesn't. My guild doesn't use DKP, or loot council, we just trust each other not to be ninja looters and need on a slight "oh i could use this eventually" item.


In our 10 mens we roll for items and everyone rolls need because 8/10 don't have their needy achievement yet. After that we bitch around a bit have a laugh and give the items to the ones who want them.

These posts indicate the real nature of loot distribution. It isn't the mechanics, you could be reading cat droppings to determine who gets the loot, it would still work in those guilds. In guilds were you feel the need to select a loot system, at heart, something is fundamentally wrong. People might still gquit due to loot council or a string of RNG with rolls or the undergeared pug walking away with 5 pieces of loot in an SKG system.

Insahnity
11-17-2009, 05:46 PM
@Docseuss

I can see alts being a monkeywrench in this scheme.

docseuss
11-18-2009, 04:46 AM
@Docseuss

I can see alts being a monkeywrench in this scheme.

How so Insahnity?

Penlowe
11-18-2009, 07:52 PM
Gear Score: Average raid gear score (AGS) - Lowest Raid Gear Score (LGS) = Raid Gear Score Weight (RGSW) / Number in Raid (NR). or (AGS - LGS) / NR = Raid Gear Score Factor (RGSF). So for example if a 10 man raid had 2 people with Gear Scores of 258, 3 people with Gear Scores of 245, 4 with Gear Score 213, and 1 with Gear Score of 226 for an average of 232.9 (AGS) - 213 (LGS) = 19.9 (RGSW) / 10 (NR) = 1.99 (RGSF). Now that you have the Raid Gear Score factor you add or subtract that factor from each score plus or minus the AGS. So each person in this raid with a gear score of 258 would loose (258 - 232.9) * 1.99 = 49.95 points, each person with a score of 213 would gain (232.9 - 213) * 1.99 = 39.60 points, and each person with a Gear Score of 226 would gain (232.9 - 226) * 1.99 = 13.731.
Oh dear God man, no loot is worth this much math. Seriously? you are going to do this for 25 people every raid? what if you have to work late? What if you get the flu and miss a raid?
Yes, I said write a detailed description, I didn't say make it require Algebra.
Too. much. work.

Second issue: item values change hourly, by the time you go through the entire guild assessing bank deposit value the first guy might have gotten 40 gold credit for an item that the last guy got 10 gold credit for. Stick to gold only if you want to judge loyalty by bank deposits. Second, [Green Crap of the Whale] will pile up in the bank amazingly fast and then people will whine that they deposited twenty seven items to someone elses' four so why does the other guy have a higher score? Too sticky of a wicket.

Count attendance, count preparedness, count availability, all other factors spread way too wide into gray areas.

Prancy
11-19-2009, 09:23 PM
Wall of text crits prancy for ouch.

Definitely would be something to be handled by an addon if you're going to go through with it.

My guild finally has enough people that we'll "probably" be able to actually implement our loot council system. I really like the idea of having raider input in the process. In the end its a group effort and a group decision and as long as everyone agrees the piece will go to help progress all should be well.

Thanks for everyone's input

Durandro
11-19-2009, 09:54 PM
Best way for Loot Council to be effective is to not have crybaby gear whores in your guild. Which is easier said then done.

One way to limit this is to have a pre-planned list of who gets what if/when it drops. This would mean you needed a regular roster of raiders, and for people who aren't getting their turn on a drop to show up anyway as part of a team effort.

Priorities would be who needs what the most, in terms of gear upgrades. In unclear circumstances, a /roll beforehand would sort the issue with the agreement that next week (circumstances unchanged) they'd get priority on the drop next time (even if it doesn't drop for the first person).

And people who refuse to raid (without good excuse, obviously) because they aren't getting their turn can face the prospect of being replaced on the roster and never getting a shot at it.

End of the day, being in a guild should be a team effort. You show up, you help each other, you get rewarded fairly. If you don't get any upgrades, take comfort that your guildmates have and thus the raid has improved ready for next time.

Martie
11-19-2009, 10:02 PM
Use gold-dkp instead.

Everybody gets chance to pay gold for an item. At the end of the run, the gold is split equally between all players that stayed untill the end.

I think it's a perfect system for dkp-based pugging loot.

(Though honestly, just use need/greed if you don't want to use dkp, or let people roll for it on a one-roll system (once you win a roll, you can't get loot again that raid.))

docseuss
11-23-2009, 12:35 PM
Oh dear God man, no loot is worth this much math. Seriously? you are going to do this for 25 people every raid? what if you have to work late? What if you get the flu and miss a raid?
Yes, I said write a detailed description, I didn't say make it require Algebra.
Too. much. work.

Second issue: item values change hourly, by the time you go through the entire guild assessing bank deposit value the first guy might have gotten 40 gold credit for an item that the last guy got 10 gold credit for. Stick to gold only if you want to judge loyalty by bank deposits. Second, [Green Crap of the Whale] will pile up in the bank amazingly fast and then people will whine that they deposited twenty seven items to someone elses' four so why does the other guy have a higher score? Too sticky of a wicket.

Count attendance, count preparedness, count availability, all other factors spread way too wide into gray areas.

Haha Penlowe. Actually if you look at my calcs it really is simply arithmetic. I was actually just using the acronym/variables to make it easier to read.

I appreciate the comments and do want to reiterate that this tracking would not be done manually. I am writting an addon to track these types of stats. Also I like the fact that as the market changes so does the credit one gets for deposits into the GB. Also if someone did try and flood the guild bank with greens then their loss as 99.9% of greens DE to a more valued enchanting dust or essence. I do think I probably need to add a minimum item level credit check though.

Also I thought about a way to track preparedness, but there really is no way to do this except manually. I was thinking of maybe looking for food or flask buffs to give credit, but if someone else lays down a Fish Feast then why give credit to all of those who eat it.

Any more thoughts on my above approach would be appreciated!

Bashal
11-24-2009, 06:28 AM
Any more thoughts on my above approach would be appreciated!

I'm just wondering why you feel it's necessary to go to the trouble of coming up with this kind of loot system, even writing a mod, when there are already several loot systems (and supporting mods) in existence. Surely one of them comes close enough to what you want, to avoid the additional investment in time you'd be looking at to devise and maintain your own system?

Kalbitang
11-24-2009, 03:15 PM
This advice is only if you want to become somewhat "serious" about your raiding.

If you're going to use Loot Council, you should still try to use some kind of tracking addon. When my old guild moved to DKP away from Loot Council, we started keeping hard attendance records (because the Addon handled it all for us). It's actually eye-opening to see these types of numbers. There were people who I didn't know too well who turned out to have 100% raid attendance, and then there was good old "Bob," who has been with us forever, an awesome guy, whose raid attendance turns out to be below 50%.

If a particularly nice item, best-in-slot dropped for "Bob," based on my subjective memory, I might be inclined to vote that "Bob" receive the item. If I saw the raid attendance numbers, though, I might learn the "Jeff" has actually been plugging away, helping the guild take care of progression raids.

If you'd rather not go the "serious" route, that's perfectly fine. Different strokes for different folks.

*This post is not meant to imply that "serious" guilds do not use Loot Council.

nethervoid
11-25-2009, 03:18 PM
The only thing I don't like about loot council systems is they are very subjective. Personally I value attendance and quality of skill over almost everything else, loot-wise, so I usually have a hard time seeing someone who's in low ilvl gear cause they never show up get something over someone who's been dependable for a long time. And of course it's going to be a bigger upgrade for the guy who never shows up, so you can't really look at it that way.

I'm RL/Officer of an exclusively 10m raiding guild, and we almost never have loot issues (one of the reasons I prefer 10m over 25m now that the content is almost identicle), with exception of the time when you have a regular rolling against someone who never shows up. We're still trying to gear up a few regulars, so I hate to see when someone who almost never shows up gets something over a regular. Feels so unfair. I think it feels unfair because out of say 10 boss kills, this item has only shown up this one time. The regular has been there for 9 out of the 10 kills, and it's this person's first time killing the guy. The item might not drop again because we might not kill this guy 10 more times (that's 10 weeks any way you cut it).

-----------------------------

For the guy looking for feedback, I don't really think you should base it on gear score at all, because someone with high attendance will always have a higher gear score, and so will always lose over someone who never shows up and isn't much of an asset to the raid team. That's really not a good way to pass out loot, especially if you have 3 or 4 of the same class, and only one of those guys is there every raid with the others flaking in and out on a whim. That regular is going to get pretty pissed off.

Insahnity
11-25-2009, 03:52 PM
Gear Score: <snip>

Attendance Score: <snip>
Bank Score: <snip>
Item Won Score: <snip>

OK to simplify things, minus the math.

You have a great Healer who attends 100% of all raids, donates thousands of gold worth of mats to the Gbank from farming, and has pretty decent gear, so any gear upgrades are pretty significant of a win (this is the type of healer for whom the guild collected the epic healer mace, let's say).

Now said healer comes with a DPS toon that *just* dinged 80 say 15 minutes ago, and wants to raid. You know they are skilled as DPS, and can pull their own weight, but their gear scores sucks.

There are two ways to handle this. The alt is a separate entity, with separate scores, or you recognize this is an alt. Both have consequences

As a separate entity:
Gear Score: Skews the weight because they have crappy gear, when in fact as players they have access to really good gear.
Attendance Score: Also zero, because attendance score is on their main.
Bank Score: Also Zero, their contributions are attributed to main.
Items Won: Zero, which means purely from items score, they will be heavily favoured to win gear preferentially on their alt, despite the fact they already won the choice healer gear on their main.

As an alt
Gear Score: If you consider each individual toon's gear score at the time, you might cause drama in the raid "That SOB with the 245+ gear and legendary mace is using his undergeared alt to get all the loot..."
Attendance Score: I see this as being accurate, 100% attendance including main/alt
Bank Score: High in both cases, but in some respects, can be considered "Double dipping", each contribution counts towards two (or more) toons.
Item's won: This is the worst. If you factor the wins from both toons, either the low alt never gets gear because the main gets it all, or the alt gets all the gear and the main stagnates, weakening the raid group.

I'm not saying it won't work, but I can see potential issues to deal with either way.

docseuss
11-30-2009, 08:12 AM
Insahnity,
Thank you for your reply and I think I understand what you are getting at, but the system I am thinking of would actually track the Main and Alt as two different toons. However I do plan on relating alts to mains so that we know who belongs to who.

So giving the situation you stated below the main "Healer" would have a higher loot rank score as they have contributed more to the guild bank and would have a higher attendance rate, which there may need to be a mechanism to set a minimum raid attended number as well, than the alt "DPS".

I guess there could be a setting as to whether or not to allow the alt/main bank contributions to combine. As far as items won I would also know that since this is an alt it would have a lower preference to someone Else's main.

Also can you explain further how you think the items won would stagnate a main? I was a little confused there.

Basically what I am trying to get at is a system that takes as much human decision out of loot and thus taking as much drama out as well. It is hard to argue why someone got loot over someone else when you have hard stats and numbers to back you up.

I mean ultimately you want to do what is best for your Raid Group but any of us that have raided for awhile knows that there are basically some standard common sense things we follow. Need before Greed, Mains before alts (including spec), and those who contribute more should have higher preference when it comes to loot over those who just show up when they feel like raiding and contribute nothing else than a warm body.

Now there will be those who flame these thoughts, but I think at their core they are correct. There all always exceptions to every rule, but I think these apply most of the time. I am hoping by tracking numbers raid members can see what they need to do and have a harder time disputing loot decisions.

I mean I don't know about you, but I have often meet with teh officers and we are trying to piece together who has been on and who has been contributing and basing decisions off our recollections and impressions, which I have to admit can be skewed at times. I would like to eliminate as much of that as possible and I think I can by using these four tools to do so.

Please keep this discussion going as I have already made several changes to my thought process based on the discussions here.

Also for those of you interested I have started my addon and the very first alpha version is located here. GambitRaidSystem - WoW AddOns - CurseForge.com (http://wow.curseforge.com/addons/gambitraidsystem/)

Thanks everyone!


OK to simplify things, minus the math.

You have a great Healer who attends 100% of all raids, donates thousands of gold worth of mats to the Gbank from farming, and has pretty decent gear, so any gear upgrades are pretty significant of a win (this is the type of healer for whom the guild collected the epic healer mace, let's say).

Now said healer comes with a DPS toon that *just* dinged 80 say 15 minutes ago, and wants to raid. You know they are skilled as DPS, and can pull their own weight, but their gear scores sucks.

There are two ways to handle this. The alt is a separate entity, with separate scores, or you recognize this is an alt. Both have consequences

As a separate entity:
Gear Score: Skews the weight because they have crappy gear, when in fact as players they have access to really good gear.
Attendance Score: Also zero, because attendance score is on their main.
Bank Score: Also Zero, their contributions are attributed to main.
Items Won: Zero, which means purely from items score, they will be heavily favoured to win gear preferentially on their alt, despite the fact they already won the choice healer gear on their main.

As an alt
Gear Score: If you consider each individual toon's gear score at the time, you might cause drama in the raid "That SOB with the 245+ gear and legendary mace is using his undergeared alt to get all the loot..."
Attendance Score: I see this as being accurate, 100% attendance including main/alt
Bank Score: High in both cases, but in some respects, can be considered "Double dipping", each contribution counts towards two (or more) toons.
Item's won: This is the worst. If you factor the wins from both toons, either the low alt never gets gear because the main gets it all, or the alt gets all the gear and the main stagnates, weakening the raid group.

I'm not saying it won't work, but I can see potential issues to deal with either way.

docseuss
11-30-2009, 08:41 AM
Bashal,
Thank you for your reply and yes you are correct in that there are several loot systems and mods out there, but none of them that I can find puts the components I am looking for together. If you can suggest some that track the things I am looking at tracking it would be appreciated.

Thanks!


I'm just wondering why you feel it's necessary to go to the trouble of coming up with this kind of loot system, even writing a mod, when there are already several loot systems (and supporting mods) in existence. Surely one of them comes close enough to what you want, to avoid the additional investment in time you'd be looking at to devise and maintain your own system?

Insahnity
11-30-2009, 09:14 AM
Insahnity,
Also can you explain further how you think the items won would stagnate a main? I was a little confused there.


In a fair system, which you pointed out earlier, the same person can't be winning over and over again just by switching alts. Therefore, you have to limit that person's winning in some fashion, or you get drama. So at some point, one of two things happen:
1) If the main wins alot, the alt won't be winning much because, well, the main won all the loot that one player can reasonably achieve in a week/(lockout period).
2) The more likely scenario, the healer just get's plumb burnt out healing, so they want to switch it up a bit and play the alt. Understandably, they don't want to deprive the guild of their best healer, so they still play the main, but their heart is (temporarily) on the little alt, and they may choose to gear up the alt preferentially. When this happens, the main will not be taking the upgrades, the alt will. Therefore, your best healer won't get many upgrades (if any), and stagnate.



Basically what I am trying to get at is a system that takes as much human decision out of loot and thus taking as much drama out as well. It is hard to argue why someone got loot over someone else when you have hard stats and numbers to back you up.

I mean ultimately you want to do what is best for your Raid Group but any of us that have raided for awhile knows that there are basically some standard common sense things we follow. Need before Greed, Mains before alts (including spec), and those who contribute more should have higher preference when it comes to loot over those who just show up when they feel like raiding and contribute nothing else than a warm body.

Let me bounce an idea off you, and see if this makes sense.

The most inhuman (rational) loot system is the roll. There is no arguing RNG, you can't say it cheated. Therefore, if your aim was truly to be impartial, you would stick to a random roll. However, I agree this is bad.

At heart, we try and "humanize" the RNG by adding human values to the role. The next evolution of the random roll is 200 Need/ 100 Greed. We are subverting RNG by giving a penalty to those who are less needy/worthy/etc. of the item.

The other end of the spectrum is a pure loot council. No rolls, completely arbritrary decision based on the judgement of the loot council. RNG is right out the window.

Your mod is just taking it the next step of moving between RNG and Loot Council, by adding n variables (instead of one, mainspec/offspec). The more controls you add, right or wrong, are essentially moving you closer to the Loot Council system. Really, any fair Loot Council can justify their decision based on the same rules you outlined, you are just basically writing out all the rules so that everybody can see, and adding mathematics to it. If any loot council cannot arrive at the same decision as your rules, then essentially either they are not fit to be a council or they are outright ninjas. And really, even the best loot council will occasionally result in hardships for some, because really, if we don't progress, despite all the logic that goes in it, we feel discouraged at some level. This is where a good Loot Council can shine over yours. "See, this guy has a perfect attendance, contributes well, raids well, but damnit, because everybody else has an overriding need that is skewing the math (10 other of the same armor class with really crappy gear skewing gear score, or whatever), this superstar has quietly endured 4 weeks of not getting loot". Mathematically, your system would eventually catch up because their low "Gear Won" score portion would make them competitive, but will the heart behind the human being seeing no loot for 4 weeks be able to keep silent, or will they quit in frustration before the system has caught up and rewards them? No math can factor in personalities, as different people have different thresholds. Incidentally, DKP based systems or SKG systems do avoid this, but they also have issues, as we all know.

Again, keep plugging away, but keep these in mind. You will never approach the infinite (the perfect loot system), but you can refine it better and better, with diminishing returns as you go, and coloured by your values (which may be good values, but not everybody agrees on what is good).

Bashal
11-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Your mod is just taking it the next step of moving between RNG and Loot Council,

It sounded more to me like a step past loot council. A lot of the things he would be tracking, such as attendance, average gear score, and guild bank contribution, are things I have seen before as factors in a loot council's decision-making process.

Doc309
12-03-2009, 10:39 AM
reward effort-
epgp with mains and alts the same. assuming the player brings whichever toon is needed.

Doc

docseuss
12-03-2009, 12:10 PM
It sounded more to me like a step past loot council. A lot of the things he would be tracking, such as attendance, average gear score, and guild bank contribution, are things I have seen before as factors in a loot council's decision-making process.

Exactly Bashal!

Basically trying to take as much out of the human decision making process as I can or maybe even trying to enhance the human decision making with better knowledge.

Anyhow the mod is going nicely and I am having a blast learning some new things. For those of you interested in tracking my progress and offering input/bug testing you can download the mod from curse here. GambitRaidSystem - WoW AddOns - CurseForge.com (http://wow.curseforge.com/addons/gambitraidsystem/)

I will take it out of the experimental stage once I get some more of the UI done. :eek:

Salloman
12-05-2009, 01:03 PM
One other poster mentioned this but there is an addon allowing the best of both worlds to take the human element out of the equation while meeting the strength of strategic placement of loot by a loot council.

EPGP, being similar to dkp but far superior by have two ways of measuring item eligibility. With an addon as EPGPLOOTMASTER, where raid members can turn on incoming monitoring and allow everyone or a few to see who are interested in an item. The addon also compares to what is currently equiped to see who needs the item the most allowing a loot council type of distribution. In case of ties you have the EPGP system to determine who has the better raid attendance/effort, etc. while seeing who and how often someone has received loot.

My guild has used this system for almost 2 years now and it has not only worked well but is completely irreplaceable. The reason is that it tracks Effort(raid attendance,etc.),EP and recent items received, GP scaled by an addon. Essentially, informing the lootmaster or Council who has put in the most effort and how much gear they have received recently. As mentioned by utilizing EPGPLOOTMASTER addon the council can make an informed decision to who is best served by receiving a specific item.

Our experience has been that with a tight knit guild as we are, the decision of loot distribution is not solely the responsibility of the raid leader but also the responsibility of the most eligible to determine who should be awarded the item. Example, Highest PR person(as determined by EPGP) looks at the items that other candidates have and defer to pass it to the person who needs it the most, benefiting the raid/guild as a whole.

It is often the case that the Council or LM is unqualified to determine which person would benefit most from the dropped item.

As mentioned also, the only failure is the systems inability work with pugs but a preliminary free roll can give the pug an equal opportunity.

With the development of such addons, both elements can co-exist and systems solely placing the responsibility of loot distribution in the hands of a loot council or dkp-types systems are things of the past.

Clementine
12-07-2009, 02:05 AM
Loot council can weed out the lootwhores.

Kalbitang
12-10-2009, 01:58 PM
Loot council can weed out the lootwhores.

I've seen loot council and loot council-ish system run "for the good of the guild," but in some cases, it becomes gear up friends and officers first. "Oh, you don't like our system? Well, then we don't need you, you loot whore! We only want people who put their guildies first!" But it's always the same guild members who are benefiting.

If your loot council is completely objective (which I think is impossible) then great and good for you.

chubtohd
01-12-2010, 05:29 PM
we run loot council, but guided by EPGP ... and it's worked well for several years.

we will hand out upgrades over epgp, but when it becomes fuzzy we defer to it ... while it can be subjective at times, there is very little QQ

the biggest thing i've seen for loot council fail is that just because you are an officer does not qualify you to distribute loot.

put people on the council that have a clue why an upgrade is good for a 'x' class...or why even though it's good for them, why it's better for 'y' class. just because it's a higher ilvl doesn't mean that the loot whores in your guild should be rolling on it :) (i.e. shamans rollin in spirit gear cause it has more haste)